I was thinking about how much our talent had fallen off and wanted to compare this team to previous years. 2009 is the last year I can think of that we were really good, and good enough to compete at the highest levels. (2010 to a lesser extent we didn't really have a good defense)
QB Tyrod vs Brewer I think it is obvious we take Tyrod
RB Edmunds/JC/McMillian/(Maybe Shai) vs Ryan Williams
This one is a little harder. Ryan obviously had one of the best seasons by a VT running back ever, but if I didn't know before the season that he would be healthy all year I might take our current group. (Wash)
WR Ford/Phillips vs Coale/Boykin
I think it is important to remember that this is Sophomore Coale/Boykin and not senior versions. I think Ford and Phillips looked far better than Coale Boykin as freshmen, but that 2009 group had a deep group of receivers behind them. (Wash)
TE Boone vs Hodges/Cline/Mallack
No comparison. 2015 is a lot better.
OL vs OL Without listing all of the players on both offensive lines. (Wiki has a good breakdown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Virginia_Tech_Hokies_football_team#Ro...) I would easily take the 2009 version. Although I really do want Wyatt
DE Nekos Brown/Worilds vs Dadi/Ekanem
Out of those 4 I think Brown is clearly the odd man out. I don't know if Worilds beats out Dadi or Ekanem, but I think that is real close. However I like that pair a lot better than the 09 pair. (2015)
DT This one is 2015 all the way. I think this is our best/deepest groups of DTs ever. No disrespect to Graves, but I like our backup DTs this year over our starters from 09. (Graves/Taco) (2015)
LBs This one is tough. First of all each had a problem spot at LB. This year it looks like Mike. 2009 was backer. If we were only comparing those two spots I would call it a wash, but if you include Grimm I'd go 09, but its close.
CB Fuller/Facyson vs Rock/Virgil Rock/Virgil was a fine pair of corners, but I don't think they are really even that close to Fuller Facyson. (2015)
Safety Chancellor/Porch vs Clark/(Frye?) This one is also hard considering we don't know exactly who the Rover will be. Its easy to give it to 09 considering how good Chancellor has been in the NFL, but he wasn't nearly the FS that he was a Rover. Also with Clark being Clark that might not necessarily be a huge gap. However I think 2009 gets the slight edge.
Conclusion: Overall I don't think think there is a significant difference between the two teams. That 2009 team was probably deeper than this team, but we aren't as far behind as you would think based on the last few years.
Comments
Uhh, Ryan Williams vs our current stable is no wash. He was an NFL back before injury. None of these backs are close to his caliber. Agree with most of the post though. Leg to you.
My point is in relation to his injury history. If you were to guarantee 2009 Ryan Williams all year like what happened, that is clearly better. However with him being injured so often I would think that would be too big of a risk to have no real threats behind him.
You still get Wilson behind him, who looked good with his limited snaps
And don't forget, Darren Evans was there until just a hair before this date in 2009...and Josh Oglesby was there too.
2009>2015
Shai is close, and he is ready to roll this season. IMO I see trey and jc starting out the season as a 1/2 but shai will make his way back to the top before too long. He is a lot further along than juice.
I like McKenzie too, but his stats against teams not named W&M and Directional Michigan were pretty pedestrian. Yes, he was a freshman but so was Edmunds in 2013 (albeit a redshirt, but remember Edmunds is just 9 mths older than McKenzie even though it's his 4th yr in the program) - and Trey was the more productive back of the two.
Short of injury I don't see him overtaking Edmunds (and probably not JCC for that matter).
Edmunds will have a big year.
Confucious say: "Insufficient data. Ask again, 3 month!"
I don't think we have any idea what we'll see from the offense this year.
We may not have a RW, but I don't even know what that means. He was extremely good than not so much while here.
Also if we have two backs who end up in the slot alot running pass patterns against LBs, Safeties, nickel CBs... I could see Brewer being a better QB than TT.
Watching TT play this weekend, I was reminded that a defense spread is an offensive line and RB upgrade. I think we've got some real potential to spread defenses with our RBs, TEs, and WRs.
I dunno we haven't necessarily seen it in practices / scrimmages... so maybe it is another delusion of mine.
Great idea for a post. I'll do 2004.
QB, Randall vs. Brewer - Randall. Brewer should improve, but I don't think he'll match Randall's ACC POY season.
RB, Imoh/Humes vs. Edmunds/Coleman - Just comparing the active 1-2 punch, it gets to be an interesting comparison. If healthy, I probably take the current group. Now, if we're comparing depth, I definitely take the current group.
FB, Kinzer vs. Rogers - Obvious.
WR, Royal/Morgan/Hyman/Harper/Clowney vs. Ford/Phillips - I take the 2004 group on depth of talent. Ford and Phillips fit right in with the older five, but beyond that no one knows.
TE, King/Mazzetta vs. Hodges/Malleck/Cline - We all love King, and I do too. But I gotta take the new guys.
OL - I'm gonna go out on a limb and pick the current group. Still can't get Randall being sacked 10 times against NC State out of my memory.
DE, Tapp/Burchette vs. Dadi/Ekanem - It seems close due to Tapp's legendary status, but I'm going with the current group.
DT, J. Lewis/Davis vs. Maddy/Marshall - Current group all day.
LB, Baaqee/Hall/Anderson vs. Clarke/Motuapuaka/Vandyke - 2004 group, only because none of the current guys outside Clarke has proved himself yet due to injury or youth. Seems unfair, but that's how I'm calling it.
CB, Williams/Green vs. Fuller/Facyson - I can't believe I'm saying this, but I can't call it. Push.
SS (er, ROV), Griffin vs. ? - Not gonna call it because (1) we don't have a rover yet and (2) I don't remember James Griffin at all.
FS, Fuller vs. Clark - We love the Fullers around these here parts, but I think Clark is an upgrade because he does all things well.
K - Pace vs. Slye - Slye because (1) the leg and (2) NC State.
P - Burns vs. Hughes - Hughes is probably our best punter since Burns, and that includes Bowden. I'm taking the current guy.
That CB one is fun. I think the only two seasons where our corners were up there with this year are 04 and 07
He suffered the injury but I think Adibi should be included in those 2004 linebackers.
Hard to argue with Hall/Adibi/Anderson as your linebacker group.
Their full year as a unit was 2005. I thought about doing that year later.
"Still can't get Randall being sacked 10 times against NC State out of my memory." oh my God.
I'm so glad that this thread reminded me of that day. /s
Welcome HokieJeep...sure do miss mine. :)
I was in the SEZ in the HT's and from our angle it looked good. Then that horrible feeling when we realize he missed.
OMG, same. Except I was in the top tier of South, not with the HTs. Miserable, miserable feeling when we figured out why everyone else wasn't cheering...
Judging by your screen name.....is that you, Brandon?
Devil's Advocate... a lot of people would have taken Al Clark over Bryan Randall prior to that 2004 season. That season (and really, it was more like half a season, because his tear didn't really start until that pass to Royal in Atlanta) really kind of came out of nowhere, especially when you consider Randall wouldn't have even started if not for the suspension of MV5. If you ask me, 2004 Randall going into USC game vs 2015 Brewer going into Ohio St game, I dunno, I say a push at best, and maybe lean towards Brewer, as he had shown potential for greatness in that previous year prior to injury.
I remember Randall taking over for Noel due to injury in 2002 and never giving the ball back to him. 2003 was weird for him, and I think the coaches had a lot to do with Randall falling off that year because of the whole two-QB thing with MV5.
I checked the box score too, since I didn't remember the good stuff from the bowl game against Cal, and Randall was Aaron Rodgers' equal that day. (And MV5 was the 3rd-leading receiver.)
Randall really struggled in 2002 and in conference play in 2003. He received quite a bit of criticism and I don't think anyone expected him or the team to play the way they did in 2004.
I knew after MV5 sh*tbagged pt 1 after the '03 season and had a gut feeling that Randall was gonna have a kicka$$ '04. And comparing him to Al Clark!? Seriously!? Are you drunk, high or both (no offense). THERE IS NO COMPARISON! Which pro team picked up Clark after his sr season? I'm listening...
Respectfully disagree. Its a big dose of revisionist history to believe that there was a ton of confidence in Randall prior to that 2004 season. In fact, most of the reason that people didn't think anything of our chances in the ACC that year was because he, and not Marcus, was going to be leading the team. I do agree that he had a couple games that made him look awesome (that Syracuse OT game and the Cal bowl) but for every one of them there were games where his mistakes cost us bigtime (2002 WVU game sticks out a ton, as does the disaster in 2003 against WVU, as well as the ineffective games against Pitt, and the head scratching OT win at Temple). His game was consistently inconsistent, and there was little reason to believe that ACC POY campaign was about to start.
I would say he and Brewer were at a very similar, if not identical point in VT lore at this point in their career. Randall made a name for himself during that Senior year. Let's see what Brewer's got.
Agreed that the majority of the fanbase did not have his back at the start of '04. But then again the majority of the base was skeptical on the whole team starting the '04 season. I guess I'm an exception.
Also bite that the first two seasons he started his game was sporadic. Highlights for me include the W against Air Force in the SF/Emerald Bowl, the last game we played against Cuse and the games against aTm. Overall he learned to become a better game manager which showed in '04 when the team really needed it. And he responded to the pressure in a big way.
I'll say that Brewer and Randall are at similar (though not identical) points. For one thing, the '02 and '03 seasons Randall finished above 7 Ws.
But absolutely will not budge on the Randall-Clark "comparison" because there is none. Right now Randall>Brewer. But we'll find out if that changes.
I think the '04 team is the better comparison. I believe the '04 was one of our best and much better than '09 or '10. The defense of the latter teams just wasnt that great, they seemed like a patch work bunch. It was the post Adibi-Hall and Chancellor-Flowers days. They made due with what they had and I loved watching them play but '04 was on another level. Im not so sure that Jim Davis and J. Lewis were not as good as the current DT's. (I hope this years team ends up being much better, but that remains to be seen) Jim Davis was awesome and made plays at the biggest moments. We had a terrible game vs NC State in '04, but other than that, we had some real nice wins. Even the losses were respectable. We played USC and Auburn, the top two teams in the country, tougher than anyone else did.
Now as far as this year's team goes, I do believe this defense is right there with '04, maybe a bit better. The D-lines are about tit for tat, '04 had better linebackers, and the DB may be better this year. Offense and QB play is going to make all the difference for this season, but that is no secret. I see a season similar to '04.
Hopefully with no phantom offensive PI calls that take points off the board...
To extrapolate:
Head Coach: wash
RB's: Billy Hite vs Shane Beamer. Love Shane, but even he would give the nod to Coach Hite.
Offensive Coach: B. Stinespring vs S. Loeffler. Love loyal Hokie Stinespring, but I would LIKE to think Lefty has a higher ceiling...we'll soon find out.
QB's: OCain vs Loeffler. Loeffler, so says LT3.
OLine: New some vs Searels. Hmmmmm. Hard to say. /S
WR's: Sherman vs Burden. I'm gonna go with the unproven Burden, but I could be mistaken.
Defense: duh. Bud rules.
Secondary: duh. Torrian rules.
D-line: duh. Wiles rules.
LB's: Cavanaugh vs. Cornell. I love me some Coach Brown, but gotta go with Cav.
I like our staff now...much higher upside in my opinion, but ask me after the season.
The magnitude of the difference is the thing. In the VT bowl era, Tyrod is the clear 2nd best qb. Brewer is on the Clark/Noel/Glennon end of the spectrum.
Same for Rock/Virgil. They were nice CBs and at most other schools, might even be somewhat revered. At VT, they were solid and unspectacular. Fuller and Facyson may be the best pair we have ever had.
Brewer > Glennon.
Glennon was an ACCCG MVP and never broke the 10 win streak. Until then...Glennon > Brewer
Agree to disagree. Glennon would have been sacked at least 10 times in the OSU game last year. Looking forward to seeing what Brewer can do this year.
Glennon had better tools than Brewer but had awful pocket presence. Brewer's pocket presence isn't awful, he just can't see to get rid of the ball.
Here's my list:
1. Mike, 2. Tyrod, 3. Randall 4. Logan, 5. Druck, 6. Marcus, 7. DeShazo, 8. Glennon, 9. Brewer, 10. Clark, 11. Noel
In tiers:
Tier 1: Mike/Tyrod
Tier 2: Randall/Logan/Druck/Marcus/DeShazo
Tier 3: Glennon/Brewer/Clark/Noel
For now, agreed. I am hoping that Brewer can move into tier 2 this season.
Brewer could go in any direction this season. Even game to game, his position may vary widely on this continuum.
Like for one game, he could be tight end? (runs)
Is your ranking based on talent or legacy at VT? If the latter, would put Druck at 3, with Randall 4 and Logan 5. Druck led us to back-to-back 10-win seasons, two Big East titles (edit: both co-champions, but receiving the bowl berth), a win over Texas in the Sugar Bowl, and an Orange Bowl appearance vs. Nebraska. Randall beats out Logan with his 2004 ACC POY performance and leading us to the league title in our first year. I would also put Glennon above Marcus if that was the case. He did win ACCCG MVP honors and lead us to a conference title and Orange Bowl appearance (with a little help from Tyrod along the way). I agree with your tier system if based on ability, however. Although, I think MV1 might be in a tier of his own if that's the case.
I think of it as performance, with less reliance on awards than others. Winning an ACC-CG MVP or even an ACC POY is dependent on the context of that award. Glennon was good in that one game, but it was a game with very limited offense IIRC.
Druck is at least #3 out of this group and would make a strong push for #2, depending on your preference of QB. As for Marcus, if you count his 2005 season (his only one as a starter), he is a top 4 QB out of this group.
You and I have been around long enough to see all these guys. Druck is a difficult one to rank because he played in a 20 pass/game system. We just didn't ask him to do as much as we did with, for instance, Brewer last year. We are running more plays, throwing the ball a lot more. Would that have benefited Druck? Maybe.
I loved Druck. He was what Logan looked like when he was good. 38-0Bro Logan was Druck almost every week.
Marcus is a tough one to rank as well. One great year, although he crapped the biggest bed of all time against Miami. But he could be sooooo good. You have to consider that it was only one year though, which limits a lot of these guys. As I've said before, Brewer's first year was very comparable to Noel's one year, I give Brewer the advantage mostly on anticipation that this year will be much better.
Can we just maybe pretend MV5 didn't play for us. I almost consider the entire '05 season irrelevant because of him. Worst ever waste of talent in the history of Hokiedom...ever.
Consider it done. "We love to see you smile."
I agree completely. And when he ran the option it was so effective. He was quick enough to get yards but not so fast that defenses were ever worried about him, which gave him opportunities. And the guy was impossible to injure in the pocket. The 1996 game at Miami, he took hellacious shots and just carried on like nothing ever happened.
I loved watching him in the Orange Bowl. I think I remember him carrying half the Nebraska defense for a 20 yard gain on one play. He was about the only really effective thing we had in that game IIRC.
Too bad he got drafted at a time when pocket QB's were on the outs and everybody was going towards mobile ones, he just wasn't fast enough, but he had a cannon. Although he was a star for a year in the XFL. I remember a commercial for a game calling him the "Mad Bomber".
He got drafted by the 49ers, and I think it was just a terrible scheme fit. Druck was great in the vertical passing game, was tough and could stand in the pocket for slow-developing pass plays, and flourished in an offense with a strong power run game and deep passing game. The dink-and-dunk quick timing routes with the 49ers and their west coast offense just didn't fit with his style at all.
Yeah, he was brought in to be their heir to the throne of Steve Young. Having a immobile QB replace a mobile QB without overhauling the OL to compensate is never a good idea.
I remember wondering why in the world would they draft him. It was a terrible fit all around.
You can tell that it's the off season when we start comparing apples (an unproven team that hasn't taken it's first snap together) to oranges (information from a full season 6 years ago). A situation where nobody's wrong, but nobody's right either.
Does this team have the potential to be very good? IMHO yes, this could be a very dangerous, very good team. It could also be a flaming disappointment. There are just too many factors and variables involved in a full season to be comparing this team to anyone quite yet. Look at last year as a good example of that. Did that team have potential to be very good? Ask OSU. But we all know what transpired throughout the season. If we're going to compare this team to teams of the past at least wait until this season is in the past. That way we have something to use as comparison.
With that said... Onward to the ACC Championship and the Playoffs!!
Very good points. A leg for you!