This is where the game will be decided for Virginia Tech in my opinion. If y'all can wreak as much havoc as you did last year in our offensive backfield, you have a great chance to win even if your offense isn't firing on all cylinders.
Ohio State's power spread is built on being successful at the bread and button: power O and read-option. These two players set up the counters, jet sweeps, speed options, etc. But they are all predicated that the defense has to honor the base offense. Zeke only got 8 carries last year, because y'all set up a tent in our backfield and didn't leave the entire night. Part was scheme, part was inexperience at OL for Ohio State(where continuity, and chemistry are vital) and a large part was personnel getting the job done.
I blocked out the memory of last year's VT game but I was really surprised to look at your depth chart and see the size of your starting DL. Obviously VT is known for great size and athleticism in the defensive backfield, but the DL was shocking.
VT's starting 4 DL average out at 6'2, 257. That's unreal.
It's pretty incredible that VT had such success last year against Ohio State being undersized by so much. Lots of credit due for that performance.
To put it into perspective, Ohio State's starting OL is 6'4 305. That's two inches and 50 pounds a man.
Have y'all always used undersized quicker DL or is this something new?
And again, FYI: 14 days, 18 hours, 2 minutes and 3 seconds til kickoff.
Comments
ha... ha... ha... oh wait this isn't in sarcastica?
yes, we've always played undersized speed demons on the DL, especially at DE position. Often moving larger, what some would call true sized, DE's to DL or OL. Vinny Mihota on the two deep is about as big a DE as I think we have had in a very long time, and he was DT up until this past spring.
It will definitely be interesting to see if we can replicate that success against the OL. While I don't doubt the OSU line has improved, I also don't think they really played any defensive lines that are schematically similar and as good as ours is. Should be a good match up.
And yes, Bud has historically used smaller, quicker defensive linemen. For those who've been following the Hokies through the Beamer/Foster era, the size of this DL is about par for the course. A lot of this has to do with the unique nature of Bud's Gap-Fit Defense. It has been noted here a few times that preparing for a Bud Foster defense is analogous to preparing for a Paul Johnson offense. The responsibilities of the DL in this system aren't the same as an NFL-style defense and don't really require prototypical NFL-size. From one of French's comments in the article linked above:
My biggest concern is defensive end depth. Nicolas and Ekanem are both outstanding players, but if they get tired or banged up, there is not a ton of depth behind them and the depth that's there is mostly untested.
Tackle, on the other hand, is an embarrassment of riches. (seriously, have we ever had this much talent/depth at any position, ever?) I think we can sub in literally anyone in the 3-deep without worrying about anyone being a liability.
I would give VT the edge in this match up, but we certainly aren't immune to good offensive lines w/ NFL-caliber running backs (see: Miami, last year). If you do find success running into the teeth of this DL, I imagine we'll be in for a long night.
Putting on my biased glasses but most think that MSU has the best dline in the country and Ohio State torched them at the end of last year.
Going to be a big battle in a few weeks!
It's an apple and a orange though. MSU went into read and react mode against anOSU last year, we all know how that went
based on what? NFL potential?
I struggled with the wording on that sentence. You faced a few lines that have had very high talent levels (MSU, Penn State and Alabama come to mind), but there's the Bud Foster Effect at play here, too (hence the "schematically similar" qualifier). I think the VT DL presents one of the most challenging match ups your OL will face this year.
2014 stats
Sacks: VT 3.69/game (3rd in FBS) - MSU 3.23 (8th)
Tackles For Loss: VT 8.39 (3rd) - MSU 6.46 (41st)
Change the parameters to against AP ranked, FBS winning, etc, you will still see VT in the top 3. Perhaps you should get a new prescription?
pshh..take your silly 'science' stuff out of here...that shi* doesn't belong on the interwebs
Seems like you found out why power running teams like BC and Pitt are significantly worse matchup problems for us than more spread oriented teams like Ohio State or Clemson. Our front four has been built upon speed for quite a while. What really is spectacular is that as long as you aren't running twin TE sets against us, we tend to always be very sound against the run. Likely because our LBs are more run stoppers than they are coverage players.
I'm not so sure we are a spread team; the power run has been our bread and butter and typically the approach we use. I'd say it'll be an interesting matchup on the 7th.
Ohio State doesn't have the same style as a traditional power run offense. Their style is much more complimentary to Georgia Tech's and that is why it is considered spread.
Maybe. But the toughest runner in the country (in my opinion) Ezekiel Elliot only had 8 carries against you guys last year.
I def. believe Ohio State is a power run team despite how they line up.
Bud Foster specifically said that the team VT plays that is most comparable to OSU is Georgia Tech. I know this might unnerve OSU fans who want to believe that they're a power run team, but it's mostly true.
It doesn't unnerve me. I guess if you're judging a team by how they line up then you are correct.
But if you look at this team and don't consider them a successful power running team then I don't know what to say haha \_()_/ .
If you don't run the ball with the same style as BC or Pitt then most probably won't consider you power run. Georgia Tech also runs the dive a lot, especially if it is successful, but that doesn't make them a plain power team.
Agree to disagree.
Don't see any point in classifying teams anyways.
Because that's what analysis is
Ok, you got me. Ohio State = Georgia Tech. Neither team is a power running team.
Happy lol?
You guys spread the field to run the ball downhill. It is a different power running style than the traditional power running teams. You are still pulling OL, sending in lead blockers, etc but you are doing it from spread formations to get number advantages inside. That is one of the reasons we had a lot of success stopping it last year, we were able to match up and win the 1v1 battles with the WRs and stack the box and beat you in the numbers game at the point of attack. I think the biggest key to this year's game is our ability to cover the 3rd WR from you guys. If we can shut him down (I believe our corners can win 1v1 against anyone with Fuller and Facyson) then we can control the running game a lot better.
Agree on that. I love Elliott and the running game but Ohio State needs to win the 1 on 1's with the wr's and hbacks to back the Hokies off. Michael Thomas vs Fuller should be magnificent.
Nick Vannett at tight end will also have to make some plays. Seems like your guys biggest question mark is linebackers this year, or am I off base?
Just gonna throw this out here... Don't expect to see Kendall on Thomas all night. I have no idea what the hell Foster is going to unleash on y'all, but one thing I'd feel comfortable wagering on is there will be all kinds of disguised coverages all night long.
And sometimes if the WRs flip sides, we don't flip the corners.
you guys don't use a typical field and boundary corner?
In the past we have. But for this upcoming season, it's unlikely. We are completely comfortable with both Kendall and Brandon Facsyon playing either. It's actually also possible that Kendall Fuller moves to cover slot receivers from the nickel as well, seeing as he can mirror guys anywhere on the field.
In the past, generally the more experienced corner would play boundary while the other was playing field. Kendall is our best coverage corner, but Brandon is so good at closing on the football that his slightly weaker coverage skills can easily be made up for just because he can recover so quickly.
It'll likely be Brandon playing more as a boundary type player, but I think that Bud will truely just mix up his coverages that there wont be much of a difference.
I'm not sure I would say linebackers. I have confidence in both of our outside linebackers. However Mike LB has me a little worried.
Aye. OLB is pretty sound (if we even use a Whip but I think we will) but MLB has been a concern. The current guy has not shown his ability to find the bubble and get downhill through it to meet the RB or cut off his angle. He also tends to wait and catch the RB in the hole rather than try and run through him to make the tackle.
@ Brutus - I'm no expert, but I'd like to see what a 2 tight end formation to run the ball could do against VT.
I would think it will depend on the scheme we run. If we are doing something similar to last year with 0 coverage, then we will still have 2 unaccounted for defenders in the box.
I think the term 'Power Run Team' = Power I/I formation to a lot of people. Whether this is the correct definition, I don't know, but I don't think I've seen an Urban Meyer offense line up in I Formation?
I guess it depends on what you define as spread vs. power run. We've always built an offense around our RB's and while UM has brought in aspects of the spread we don't really run a spread, IMHO. For you guys I think we will look to establish the run and attempt to run the ball down your throat as often s possible. In the end, it really doesn't matter what you call an offense as long as it works consistently, so I guess we'll just agree to disagree.
Trust me, you don't want a power-running offense. That's the technical name for 3 yards and a cloud of dust. Stanford did this best when Harbaugh was there, and it wasn't great then.
Much better to be a spread running offense.
Spread the field, option D-lineman (leave them unblocked and guessing) and use your athletes in space. Up-tempo helps too. Think Oregon, Chip Kelly's Eagles, and OSU. If the defensive plan is to sit back and play your game, they've already lost. Alabama did this with great athletes last year and got killed.
The key to defending a spread is to play your assignment, beat your man to the spot, and make the tackle (with help if necessary.) By design there will be a lot of man-vs-man in space, and if the defender is late, bye-bye.
OT: Do you still live in Houston? If so can you email me at robbpoland3[at]gmail DOT com? Have some questions about the area.
Really?? Would you please tell me what you did to erase the memory of that Orange Bowl? Or at least the second half.
Spread to run.
Speed on defensive line can overshadow a lack of size if the players are talented. Look at the TCU vs Wisconsin Rose Bowl a few years back and you will see what I mean. TCU's defensive lineman had the speed and the skill to beat the massive Wisconsin line and their classic power running game.
I think defensive line speed is becoming more the norm than the old road graders; except now coaches want size and speed, a combo that is hard to find. Give that offensives, even run oriented ones, try to stretch the field horizontally as well as vertically you need speed in a D or else you'll be giving up a lot of yards unless you can really overpower an O-line. Given that most top tier O-lines are pretty good relying on brute strength to disrupt an offensive is problematic at best.
part was inexperience at OL for Ohio State
We've heard that before. Yeah, we must have been too experienced then.
It's just two weeks away and time to get in war mode. Enough of the friendly banter.
Ya with all you classy and logical buckeyes fans here on tkp its getting harder to get fired up and hate......nevermind im good.
I hope Lebron makes the trip to Bburg for the game..worked out well for us last time
Bruce Smith can stare him down from across the field.
Damn, the thought of Big Bad Bruce staring at someone with bad intent just sent chills down my spine.
Then we just walk out self proclaimed die hard Hokie football fan, Steph Curry, and one up week again.
And its not like he hasn't been known to travel for football games...
Ummmm......so what Lebron?? Nobody cares. Everyone loved you there then they hated you when you left because you somehow owed them something personal and then they completely stomped out their jersery fires and put on a fresh one with fresh smiles when you returned. Laughable.
Those were Clevelanders. Though I am a Browns and Cavs fans, those people two hours north are a different breed lol...
Correct! Cleveland and Columbus are a little different animal. It can be confusing as any Ohioan can be an OSU fan, but plenty of people up here root for Cleveland pro sports fervently and casually bring up OSU. (Kinda downplays the tragedy and struggle of Cleveland sports, so it's a noted distinction by many up here).
Think Mets and Yankees- not really rivals, you could probably technically root for both. One fan base expects a championship every year, while the other pulls for the underdog. Pretty different fan base mentalities- one team is the richest in baseball and the other gets confused for the Cubs. Although the AL/NL difference is still enough to make most New Yorkers pick sides, many Cleveland fans will pull for OSU but only recognize the pro sports as "theirs".
The whole reason I ended up with an OSU Cornhole board was that I bought all the supplies and made the template so that my neighbor and I could make our own set this summer. He really just wanted Browns boards, even after the OSU NC and the Browns finishing another season of being the Browns.
My fianc (starting yesterday!) is an OSU alum, so she just asked me to make 1 of each. And I'm a saint, apparently so I made a board for her of a team I don't really like to go with my Hokie one.
Congratulations!
Thank you!
I can concur a lot of tOSU hate amongst Browns fans. On Cleveland.com, you can see this in the comments of tOSU articles. Also, Browns articles get 100's of comments where tOSU articles get a dozen if that.
With that being said, there is real love for Buckeye football up here. Ohio State garb is every bit (if not more) as common as Browns gear.
Stopping the gap-fit really requires a unified offensive line approach, if the OL knows their responsibility and can work as a unit (see BC) then we struggle against the run, if it turns into 1 on 1 across the line then the VT DL will dominate, not because of winning those 1 on 1's every down but by every man working his assignment and freeing up hitters.
The biggest weakness of Foster's defense, in my opinion, is when the opposing offense has TEs that can block our DEs one-on-one consistently. Or if they can down block or combo our 5 technique.
The next biggest one is if we have a weak link at DT and they can get movement on the DT on combo blocks before picking up the LB trying to scrape.
See Williams, Nigel, vs Miami
That was rough. Don't wanna watch again.
Bud's defensive line strategy is similar to the Spartan phalanx. It's so much more about assignment-driven technique and trusting your brothers than it is about being able to straight up beast an opponent 1v1. This allows for undersized 2* players to put up 4* and 5* numbers, and for the defensive unit to go all Thermopoly on offensive juggernauts like an OSU
Just remember, while Sparta was the dominant force on the Greek peninsula, especially after the defeat of Athens in the Peloponnesian War, Thebes defeated them using a new offensive approach that negated Sparta's advantages.
So you're saying Ohio State's gonna come out in the Air Raid?
I love this response. The ever-evolving strategies of warfare.
Overheard on Ohio State sideline:
Madness???
Our defense will be the same size as last year...
By that I believe you mean HUGE.
Exactly the same lol. And deeper
A couple points:
1. There is at least some validity to the "Ohio State's O-line is prepared this year" argument. It is fact that 4 of Ohio State's offensive starting offensive linemen were making their 2nd (Price, Baldwin, Boren) or 3rd (Elfein) career start against VT. That much inexperience was a significant factor. A factor that won't matter this year since 4 of the starting 5 now have at least 15 games of experience.
2. VT has more experience and depth on their D-line. Ohio State's offensive line may have dramatically improved, but who is to say VT's D-line didn't improve even more since last year. We won't really know who improved most until gameday.
3. If VT loads the box again it doesn't matter how much better our O-line is. Our lineman may win a majority of their battles, but it doesn't matter if VT brings 8 and we can only block 6. I'm still not convinced that Foster isn't going to roll out the Bear a good bit. Why wouldn't he if he still feel confident that he can play man to man in the secondary and completely blanket our receivers. Our receivers couldn't get any separation last year and what has really changed since then? We actually have less talent at WR because of the suspensions.
4. Bud Foster. No real point here. Just noting he will be the best coach on the field and 100% of the reason why VT has an excellent shot at beating OSU. Mad respect.
This guy gets it
Want to know where the Foster vs Meyer chess match is gonna play out this year!? The WR routes and getting to the edge.
If OSU can hit some screens when VT is bringing 8 they can take advantage of getting the ball outside with blockers. Last year they tried some jet-sweeps early in the second-half with success, but went back to their inside zone game because that's their bread-and-butter. Foster didn't adjust (because he correctly realized it was a ploy) and luckily VT preserved the lead (which meant they had to throw in the 4th.)
I expect to see much more complex short routes (VT had some good ones to negate the OSU pressure), some outside screens, and maybe some QB option if VT clogs the box again. (IMO)
Just a note, but WR screens against press man corners whose main responsibility is the pass is not a recipe for success. I think flare passes to the RB/HB like OSU ran versus Kent State and Maryland is much more likely.
IIRC they tried one of those against us late in the game last year and had it wide open, but our pressure caused an errant throw. Lucky for us it wasn't caught, cause it could have been a game changing play.
Thank you. Every time the inexperienced O-line is brought up, all I want to do is scream "so they're more experienced, does that mean they can pancake a rusher and block another? Because that's what it will take when we send the house." Say you guys have 5 OL and a TE and Foster sends 8. A lot of blocking schemes allow for an unblocked defender so long as he's on the off-play side, but what happens when we bring 2? Your RB has to pick up a guy on the play side and hope you can get the ball away before our speedy end/linebacker/corner/Safety/Coach Foster makes it in from the off-play side. And what happens if one of our rushers requires a double team?
Not saying we are going to dominate you, just that Foster can scheme some pretty big advantages with the personnel he's loaded the team with, even if the 1 vs 1s aren't obvious wins for us.
I'm going to sound like a jerk here, and trust me, I know Foster is great. But you're making it seem like Bud is the only one who knows how to bring a blitz in the country.
Every team in the country uses those basic blitzing schemes you described.
apparently not with the same success rate. There is a reason despite not recruiting at an elite level that VT's defense are year-in year-out in the top 10 in CFB, don't you think?
Oh, I agree Bud is one of the best. Just the schemes the poster described were just basic blitzes that every team uses.
I'ts monday and little things are bugging me. Please forgive me lol.
lol. Poor guy. Gets 5 responses in about 5 minutes.
Its not so much about the blitz itself but disguising the blitz. Bud does arguably the best job disguising his defenses with alignment and personnel. Other times he will flat out give away he is blitzing and dare you to beat his corners.
.
um, I hate to be the one to point this out, but
Yeah, I didn't make the chart...just grabbed it off BUD FOSTER'S Twitter page!!!!!
And it's in response to:
Maybe we do, but we seem to get more out of it, because Bud.
Wh y must we post that picture. You should just put a fu$%ing mini frank celebrating a 0-0 tie inside the trophy case to kick both my left and right but at the same time
one day that case will hold something other than that signage...
I thought they got rid of that case a few years back.
.
.
It isn't so much about the scheme of the exact blitz that he uses. You are correct in that
manyALL DC's use the same ideas and schemes for bringing the blitz. But, Foster is one of a very small number, if not the only, college DC that runs the Gap-Fit DL scheme. This is one of the reasons that his defenses have been so effective over the years. Also, it really mucks up traditional blocking and protection schemes because the DL aren't in the places you expect them to be from all of your past experiences. Add that Bud loves the corner blitz as well as the zone blitz and mixes them liberally into his play-calling and you get the reason why we treat Bud like the genius he is.Basically, the blitz itself isn't much of a problem, the Gap-Fit DL scheme is a problem, but the intelligent marriage of those two concepts creates a monster problem for an offense. The results of which were pretty evident last year.
Interesting stuff. Hope my guys are more well prepared than last year. Bud put on a clinic.
Shameless plug for TKP, but our very own Jonathan French did a wonderful writeup on the Gap Fit and how Foster uses it to his advantage. Bud Foster's Gap Defense
A few things set Foster apart.
1. As what was mentioned before with DL size, but wants some very specific things out of his players and DL.
2. He is really good at disguising where the blitz is coming from and the coverage behind the blitz. This is why we lead the country in interceptions over the last 5/10 however many years. One thing that has been a weakness are your franchise NFL types. It was obvious that guys like Luck and Aaron Rodgers were NFL prospects, but they didn't necessary blow everyone out. Well they tore us up. It is interesting how many future star NFL QBs we have played. The two previously mentioned, Peyton Manning, Matt Ryan, and Russell Wilson just off the top of my head.
Good stuff. Makes me think even more that OSU has a better chance if Cardale Jones starts against you guys. He's got the arm that those guys do.
Rumor seems to be that it will be Barrett and that has me nervous for what Bud can do.
They didn't beat us because of arm strength. They had elite ability to read what defenses were doing an exploiting it. Chucking up bombs may get you a touchdown or two, but having an elite coverage reader is what kills the Hokies.
Russell Wilson has never beaten a Bud Foster defense (0-3) in college.
wasn't he QB in the game where we had to have the largest comeback in school history to win? I mean, in the end a win is a win, but statistically speaking, it almost looked like a loss.
Haha, lol, haha, 3 INT's on ol' Russell Wilson's stat sheet (all to Jayron Hosley) doesn't almost look like a loss to me.
fair enough. If you showed anyone the rest of the box score and told them they led 17-0 early in the second quarter, they'd have told you NC State won that one.
We did well against Ryan and Wilson.
Muck Fatt Ryan! Or something like that...
Sorry, felt that belonged here.
There are a few comments I've seen from Buckeye fans dismissing aspects of our program that I'm just not sure how to take, something like these:
"Every team in the country uses those basic blitzing schemes..."
"By any name - under any D coordinator, it's basic. Too much credit is going to Foster." (<--last year's gameplan)
"Every team has the loudest stadium."
"Every team has the best D-line."
But "every team" doesn't get the same results, doesn't have their stadium ranked, doesn't cause seismographs to deflect, doesn't have award winning DCs widely respected by the media as one of the tops in their field. If a VT fan is saying it, usually it's true, not because we're one of "every team in the country."
Agree with you 100%. A lot of Ohio State fans don't get the math part of football. Your QB getting sacked isn't always a result of bad blocking. Football is a numbers game and on offense you are always down at least one blocker because the QB is taking up a spot. When you give it to the RB you are now down 2 since the QB sure as hell isn't going to block . A lot of the time this numbers mismatch isn't noticeable because the defense will have two safeties playing deep or they will run a particular defense that protects more against the pass. The numbers game becomes a hell of a lot more apparent though when you run something like the Bear and bring the house on every damn play. All of a sudden the outside running lanes are clogged by DE's playing the far edge and the inside is just a mess with defensive lineman occupying every linemen and linebackers shooting through every gap. Then throw in some corners and safeties crashing down and you literally have nowhere to run regardless of your skill on offense. Unfortunately, all Ohio State fans see is bad blocking and not the genius of the scheme. Which is surprising because Urban's whole offensive philosophy is based around this basic math. Why do fans think his scheme is so dependent on the designed QB run? Could it be because it evens out the math and gives the offense an extra blocker lol? Anyway, I hear hear your pain with regard to Ohio State fans not getting it. I've all but given up trying to explain it to some of them.
That's why I hope JT doesn't start. I feel like Meyer had something going with QB runs and scrambles (i.e. number equalizing plays) but went away from it for whatever reason. I know you don't want your QB getting nailed, but I remember several big runs being ripped off.
a qb coming off injury may get rattled much easier in his first game back than a qb who just won a natty, JMO.
Props for admitting that the WR depth will be hurt due to the suspensions. A lot of Buckeye fans seem to think the backups are every bit as good or better.
While suspensions of starters hurt, I think our backup WR's are good enough so you won't see much of a drop off. As long as they are effective, which will be a challenge against your secondary, our passing game should be OK. I think losing Bosa hurt us more than the loss at WR / H back. We'll see Sept 7th.
I agree, guys like Curtis Samuel will be more than serviceable for OSU. The problem that is now presented is that now the Buckeyes have no depth at those positions, so if guys like Samuel and even Braxton are going to be the guys on the field, they might wear down by the end of the game.
On point three, we covered your WR with one healthy and one dinged up corner. Now they are both healthy. So that is also a change. Just not in aOSU's favor.
Bud has been known to put more of a premium on speed than size, but to be fair, we are a bit more undersized than usual.
DE Dadi Lhomme Nicholas at 227 lbs. is undersized, even for VT standards, but is a very good DE. Corey Marshall at 268, similarly is an undersized, but very quick / disruptive DT. DE Ken Ekanam at 249 and DT Luther Maddy at 285 are probably more typically sized VT D-lineman. It is not uncommon for our DT's to go about 300.
The ends combined for about 20 sacks last season, and were a more productive duo than we have had in a number of years.
Bud's strategy is always stopping the run first to make a team one dimensional, so it will be very interesting to see what strategy he uses this game and how it plays out. Probably the most important factor in the game.
This is exactly what I expect. And it is honestly the only way to beat us. If JT starts I absolutely expect Foster to flood the box all night long and leave guys in single coverage. To me the enigma is what happens if Jones starts. Conventional wisdom tells me that Foster would just stick with the same gameplan, but I wonder if Cardale's very different skill set would change his mind at all. Cardale is the only QB on the roster than throw a 35 yard bullet that has absolutely no arc. JT on the other hand has to loft any ball that is going to travel more than 25 yards. JT has accuracy but a weak arm allows db's way too much time to track the ball and make a play. Jones on the other hand has a cannon that allows him to make throws that JT could only dream of. Of course Jones also has the downside of not being able to run the read option very efficiently. I almost want to Cardale to start just out of natural curiosity. I want to see if Foster would adjust or make Cardale prove that he can beat his db's in the passing game.
Bud won't adjust his philosophy based on the QB per se, but will adjust if man coverage breaks down. I get that Cardale has a hand cannon, but can he throw with poise under pressure? You guys demolished the opposing DLs in the games Cardale started, so we really don't know how he reacts to pressure/pain. If Dadi and Ekanem make a sandwich in the backfield early on, who knows how Cardale will react. I have no doubt Cardale has the more powerful arm, but can he throw into the face of the rush, knowing his ass is about to be drilled into the turf? We don't know, because we haven't seen it happen. But I will say, one trend with strongarm QBs I've noticed is, if you rattle them, they tend to just throw the hell out of the ball. You might see 12-gauge get sawed off if Foster can consistently apply pressure.
I'm sure Jones would bring his own challenges that would cause Foster to tweak what he is doing, but the principle of first stop the run and make your opponent one dimensional will always be central.
Interesting take on the QBs. I have been more afraid of JT...seeing how fantastic his season was (he was better than Braxton Miller, which is impressive). With JT being far more experienced this go around he surely will play better against the Hokies this year. My thinking was Cardale Jones benefited from a running game which was explosive those last three games (a QBs job sure gets easier when the defense can't stop the run). But perhaps the running game was so dynamic because Jones was the QB.
As interesting as the QB debate is. The Hokies will need to limit Zeke and the running attack in order to have a chance at winning.
Yep, it's a chicken or the egg thing with Buckeye fans right now.
JT guys say Cardale was lucky that Zeke finally clicked and went off.
Cardale guys are saying that teams fear of his arm backed the defense off and allowed Elliott to go nuts.
Really interesting offseason.
The only logical thing to do is for JT and Cardale to both run onto the field to take the first snap and get into a massive fight on the field. Whoever is left standing gets to start.
You must be on team Cardale
I worry about Cardale and if those guys bring him down. He's a big dude and can blow up the numbers advantage we're talking about. I did just say I work about JT because he can be a runner. So..I'm just worried.
Our defensive line will not be blocked by your offensive line. They could not last year, so I have no reason to believe they will this year.
However, I'm sure Urban will have some tricks up his sleeve with misdirection, traps, etc to take advantage of our defensive line's aggressiveness and willingness to get up-field.
Ohio State's line went from an awful young bunch who couldn't push back Navy to a unit that demolished Wisconsin Alabama and Oregon at the end of the season-and they bring back 4 starters.
Both teams should be improved from last season.
^^^^he's right
Well, thats not entirely true. I went back and watched film and when VT only brought 4-5 guys the offensive line did fine. When VT brought 7-8 guys they got to the QB with ease because we just didn't have the numbers to block every defender. I don't see it as a situation where our offensive tackles were just overwhelmed one-on-one all night against Dadi and Co. I'm sure Dadi won his fair share, but when VT isn't bringing the house I'm confident our o-line can hold its own. However, when VT brings the house I'm obviously aware that the pocket is going to collapse faster than a house of cards. But just saying our offensive line just cant block your D line is not only overlooking reality, but also the brilliance of Bud's scheme.
So basically if I'm reading all the comments and French's analysis correctly:
VT requires a smaller defensive line because many times they are asked to quickly get to a gap that may be one or two gaps away from where they line up and yet still maintain the leverage on said gap. In order to do this, you need DTs and DE that can get there in a hurry but understand form and hands on an elite level.
I can see how this would potentially mess with blocking scheme since offensive linemen may end up blocking players directly into the gap that they want to get anyway and then have the second level immediately fill to the open gap. It seems really aggressive and I love the concept.
One thing I took away from the whole thing, is that DBs are required to do a lot of run/pass reading which could be problematic if they make the wrong read even for just a split second. And it seems that since the MLB is a run first defender with little to no pass coverage responsibility, that the middle of the field would be open on play action.
Until the QB realizes a little too late that Foster has just run a robber coverage and had a safety/DB fill that area. Just when you think the DBs are running man to man Foster/Gray switch up what goes on in the secondary and bait the QB into throwing where they think no one will be. French covered some of this in the Military Bowl write up (http://www.thekeyplay.com/virginia-tech-football/2015/01/8423/hokies-use...). Foster/Gray want everyone in the secondary to be interchangeable so that they can send Fuller in on a blitz and not miss a beat in coverage.
I'm not a huge Xs and Os person but as I've learned what Foster does, it's pretty impressive.
Excellent explanation. Robber coverage, along with inverted cover 2 looks also means that the safeties are moving or looking to move forward at the snap, helping out in the run game and simplifying their reads.
But yes, I would venture a guess that VT's DBs do more film study than anyone else in the country because the scheme requires them to recognize run vs. pass very quickly.
Foster's DBs bait guys into thinking they're baiting guys into thinking they're seeing a cover 3 when really they're playing an inverted 2 or man free with robber coverage in the middle instead of the traditional deep safety. Basically, it's lies. All lies. It's taken truly elite QBs to really beat Bud Foster's secondary - as in Luck and Rodgers elite. Yes, teams have beaten VT, but only the really good ones have beaten Foster without any of his defenders blowing an assignment.
Yes, the middle of the field is open to slants and crossing routes (quick and slow-developing, respectfully.) But the DBs can disrupt this by playing inside leverage and keeping the receiver from crossing in front of them. The result is a sometimes a route that's broken off or run too shallow, meaning a tough throw for the QB to make with pressure coming straight at him.
We played inside leverage last year and it worked great except for the one time Thomas got free.
So you sell out vs the power run inside with LBs being primarily run defenders with specific gap responsibility. And you sell out on with press coverage messing up the timing on short to mid range routes and use inside leverage to take away the middle of the field. This leaves patterns to the sidelines open, and potentially deep balls and outside runs (but the DBs are quick to read run from the keys of the WRs setting up blocks).
What I don't understand is how these guys rush the passer. They have a gap they are responsible for, once they get there the evaluate the blocking and the play, if it's a run they tackle, if it's a pass they get upfield?
If our defensive line reads run, then it is their responsibility to draw double teams and tie up the blockers. It is then the responsibility of our linebackers to fly through the gaps that are then no longer occupied by the opposing blockers. Linebacker play, especially from the MLB is very important, because they need to be able to read exactly where the gap is, and not hesitate to immediately fly through the hole to get to the back. That's part of our concern this year. Our current MLB is still pretty green, and has shown some hesitation at times. Chase Williams, who you guys played last year, was completely trusted by Foster to make the reads quickly. He was extremely successful at getting to the running back from behind while the back waited for lead blockers to set up. Andrew Motupuaka, who is starting this year, has shown hesitation at times. And if that happens, it can result is bad things for the defense, especially against good RBs (See the Miami game last year against Duke Johnson)
If the line reads pass, then generally their goal is to get up the field as quick as possible. DTs tend to be a bit more reserved in the pass rush to ensure contain is maintained, but the Ends are usually getting up the field FAST.
In most cases, this would mean that plays like RB or jailbreak screens could work like a charm. Until you learn about another one of Foster's curveballs, which is dropping one (or both) of his quick defensive ends into coverage. They are fast enough to keep up with routes for a short period of time, which is fine if the QB feels that he needs to get the ball out fast because of the typically very quick pass rush.
If a QB is an elite coverage reader and is quick to decipher if pressure is coming or is not, it can prove fatal for the scheme. But there are probably only 1 or 2 QBs in the FBS every year that can do that. I'm not sure if Jones or Barrett are good enough to do that.
Good reading: http://www.thekeyplay.com/content/2014/september/9/something-old-somethi...
Bud Foster's defense always does the following things, no matter what the formation:
1) Fit the interior gaps to create a wall eliminating the point of attack.
2) Win the numbers battle (often through the use of inverted cover 2 or cover 4 with a robber having no initial pass responsibility.
3) Funneling the runner to the unblocked defender by either setting an edge, or creating a "false" cutback lane.
In the spring of 2014, it was pretty apparent that the Hokies had two unique players in Corey Marshall and Luther Maddy at defensive tackle. Both guys were not going to take on double teams and keep their fits, but both had/have amazing quickness that allows them to get into the backfield without losing gap responsibility. I knew, and said repeatedly in my previews, that the Hokies had a huge match up advantage against an inexperienced interior group of the Buckeyes. Bud increased that advantage by using the exact same fundamentals, but covering up all three interior blockers. This made it much more difficult to double team Maddy, Marshall, and either Ekanem or Nicolas on the inside, AND if the Buckeyes tried to down block with the tackle, that freed up an extra linebacker to be unblocked. The only way tOSU was going to run the ball on the inside last year was if their center and two guards could win one on one battles with those three guys every snap, and that wasn't happening.
Still, I think Meyer could have established Elliott much more than he did. Speed option to the field was there all game long against the Bear (Clarke was isolated in space against two potential ball carriers with the mike and rover needing to run a long way in support) and the DBs couldn't come up and support playing cover 4 (no deep help if it was a fake and go.) Running the counter with just a wham and zoning everything up front should have worked. But, power and read option was going to be tough sledding.
This year, tOSU's OL and QB should be better. RB should be better. WR- probably worse. VT's DL has more depth, especially at DT, and all those guys are back. That battle may determine the outcome.
Keys to OSU winning IMO are:
1) Mobile QB to bust 10+ yards per scramble (like last year) while our corners play man.
2)Employ Elliot inside - outside - inside until something gives. (with that line of theirs - it is inevitable, even against the bear - see 2nd half of Oregon for definition of wilting into submission from onslaught of strength and power)
Key to VT winning:
1) MUST score early (see last year); psychology of game changed GREATLY after we scored early last year; knew there was hope; if we don't score 1st quarter - bad news bears
2) make them earn it - if they do that slant (vs. Faycson) for 70 yrd TD or something like it it is totally demoralizing; keep it close and we have a shot
3) NO TOs and limit penalties
no bones about it; that juggernaut that won the championship last year was a powerful, churning engine of meanstink - looked hell of a different than the team we beat.
Oregon for reasons that defy conventional logic, often only played five or six in the box. Ohio State obliged them by pounding Elliott until they had zip left.
Definitely Oregon didn't Bear-up. My phrasing was poor above. Nonetheless, after watching them that second half, it isn't crazy to think they would have run over an 11 man front - not sarcastica. Urban was impatient on the run. I don't think he will be this year - as you've stated many times - Zeke's run to the left for the TD showed some vulnerability to our scheme as they blocked quite well on the perimeter.
Like French said, that speed option is probably the single best counter to the bear front as we showed it, as it requires the safety to come from the middle of the field to make the play on the pitch man. That being said, Detrick Bonner was technically in position to make the play on Elliot's TD but he got juked out. If he could've forced Elliot back inside Dadi would've made the tackle on the backside cut.
And that is why he's Zeke, and a good reason they're reigning champs.
I always appreciate your level-headed analysis and statements. I think fans on both sides tend to lob bombs at each other due to a sense of superiority and team pride. Can we just play the damn game already?
Put me in the category of those who think last year's game will have very little resemblance to this year's game. It will play out very differently on both sides schematically. These are elite coaches on both sides who dealt with what game them trouble in last year's game a long time ago. They will be anticipating and preparing for different schemes they think the other side will do. The greater impact will be in terms of which staff adjusts best to what is being done to them. That said, in the end, it comes down to players making plays, turnovers, and controlling the LOS. Can't wait to see how it plays out.
I hope you're right, considering our guys outschemed your guys, and your guys never adjusted.
There's an old adage in sports that I've heard applied to football and basketball: "It's not about the X's and O's, but the Jimmies and the Joes."
This is no slight to VT, but Ohio State recruits at a higher level. That said, the difference is not so large that it can't be overcome with good coaching, player development, motivation, execution, etc. - and VT proved that last year.
They also disproved that adage as an absolute. IMO, that was a triumph of X's and O's over the Jimmies and Joes. Again, that doesn't mean that VT didn't have the best individual players on the field in places, but on the whole, Ohio State had the talent and depth of talent to be the best team in the nation. But at that time, they were too green to play at the level they needed to in order to win a game vs. a very good VT team at the time. Bud Foster looked at a young OL, QB, unproven RB, and questionable WR corps and wisely chose to try to choke them with pressure. His X's and O's, along with some clutch plays by the QB gave them enough to win that game. No one should try to diminish that feat. Very few teams, relatively, have ever done it in Ohio Stadium, regardless of circumstances, and the Hokies deserve all the credit. As another thread asserts: "it was no fluke."
However, the basis for my confidence going into this game (and I think the subject few want to really address on this forum), is that the Bucks do have the Jimmies and Joes, the coaching, the experience against superior competition, and reasons to be highly motivated. That gives the Buckeyes a very good advantage going in. If I'm a VT fan, I'm thinking the home field, confidence from last year's result, a genius for a DC, among other things, will be enough to offset the advantage OSU has coming in. Since the adage was proven false and non-absolute last year, then it definitely means that it can be repeated, but the adage exists because it is generally true. The odds are it will be true again, but the best thing about CFB is all the things that happen that defy the odds. :)
To be fair, you're not playing the Little Sisters of the Poor. Our entire starting DL are Nagurski watch listed, we're starting an All-American at one corner spot, and a former freshman AA at the other. Our starting free safety is a beast, and our starting OLB balled out hard against y'all last year. You certainly have better depth of talent, but the gap, especially against our D, isn't quite what you think.
Dang! I thought I went way out of my way to make sure I wasn't interpreted as saying VT was the Little Sisters. I tried hard and failed evidently.
I remember during the Tressel Era we played some games against a few teams that out-recruited us at that time. USC comes to mind. We lost bad out there. The Jimmies and Joes principle applies to everyone. :)
Huge deal last year was VT scoring first - to some it may seem slight, but when you've followed the team long enough to know how anemic they can be on O despite strong D, it can be overstated. Getting that drive early created a spark - I don't know how we can pull it off if we don't get that again.
True. You guys simply out coached us. However, I think UFM will be more confident in his player's ability this year and more willing to open up the playbook. He'll have proven quantities at RB, QB and on the O line. The addition of Miller could be a game changer in the backfield depending on how well he adjusts to being an H back / WR.
Your greatest asset is Zeke and the the way the line played at the end of the year - unstoppable. If you guys don't get too cute it will be hard for our best effort to last.
Our offensive line couldn't even hardly handle the base defense of Navy let alone VT's gap defense in a front we've never seen. It's hard to make adjustments when your OL doesn't even fully understand your base offensive blocking scheme.
Speaking as a fan of a team with an OL that didn't understand our base offensive blocking scheme from 2006-2012, you ain't lying.
I actually didn't see that many assignment issues from you guys last year. We brought more than you could block a good amount of the time and on a lot of key plays when we brought less, we were able to have a defender win a on-one-on matchup and make a play. That being said, it wasn't like all of our defenders were consistently dominating.
When you're thinking about what to do on the football field, you're already a step behind.