It is not a good idea to fine student athletes that don't even get pay. It would make sense if they are paid employees.
Coach Beamer has been doing it right for 29 years by making violators run at 6 in the morning.
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Did you miss the part where making players run at 6am was no longer allowed? That's why they looked into expanding the fines from just bowl stipend deductions for infractions during bowl season...
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Wow, Whit Babcock shut this down immediately in his defense, and now his old school is trying to go ahead with it. Cincy has definitely shifted some of the attention off of us. Seems like it was a conversation that needed to be had. Nobody has any idea what the COL impact is going to be
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Even after the monitor pictures were released this afternoon I've seen more on ESPN's website about this than about our own situation. Shoutouts to Cinci for taking some of the heat off.
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The more I think about this, the more I keep flopping sides. A scholarship athelete accepts certain responsibilities and in return they get an education and a COL stipend. If an athelete doesn't live up to their responsibilities, then they are in breach of contract. THEN, you factor in the four year scholarship. So you can't give them athletic punishments, monetary punishments, AND the player is guarenteed a scholarship for all four years? What tools do the coaches have left to enforce the player's end of the contract?
just my fiddy cent
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But as others pointed out, that punishes the whole team. Say your QB has to sit out a quarter because he did something stupid and would have otherwise received a 50 dollar fine. Then your star receiver may not have had that three touchdown game that got all the scouts attention and he doesn't get drafted as highly.
I know it's a bit of a stretch but still, why should the whole team be responsible for one person's actions?
There has to be other ways, I guess I'm just not seeing them.
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Then it makes everyone accountable to the rest of the team. You screw up and it's everyone that suffers, so it gives more incentive to get it right initially.
Adds an extra layer of incentive to not mess up. I don't see how that's a bad thing.
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Let's look at it this way. You make your star player sit out a quarter. Then you lose the game. Maybe that game was your only conference loss of the year and caused you to miss out on the conference championship. Coaches get bonuses and schools get some incentives from their contracts with uniform companies for that. So now that missed quarter has cost the school, let's just call it $100,000. But what if that game was your only loss of the season and now you missed out on the playoff. That mistake just cost your team, your school, and your conference a couple million. But we could have just charged you $50 and been square. You're right though, let's have a couple million dollars less coming to the school instead of charging a player $50.
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by the same token, a butterfly could flap its wings in SE Asia and cause a hurricane that causes millions of dollars in damages to the gulf coast. Ergo, we should do away with all butterflies.
funny thing is, I don't oppose fines, but let's not go to crazy hypotheticals to make a point. It's just as bad as people saying that Foster would fine a kid who's living in a cardboard box trying to feed his 6 kids just because the rules say so.
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Before anyone gets carried away with hypotheticals, does anyone know how much we have actually fined players? I mean has the season total been in the 5 figures, or has it been under $1000 TOTAL. I would venture a guess it's on the lower side, as it should be, with the "rules of engagement" set forth up front. The infractions aren't things that are simply made up and can be used against someone willy nilly.
We have an equipment department, so there should be close to zero fines in that department. There's no excuse. The tutor thing shouldn't be an issue, and missing classes happens here and there, but in the day and age of twitter and easy access via mobile devices, stuff gets reported quickly and easily. Again, I can't see the team rolling up a huge amount of fines, which means the rules are in place to keep things in line and it's working.
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Not trying to go into hypotheticals, but saying the entire team should be punished for one person's room not being clean is the wrong answer. Punish the entire team with conditioning. Punish them with two-a-days. But to punish them by making them sit is wrong. Benching a player is for when they've continuously violated team rules, are in legal trouble, or do something that is legitimately wrong.
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A significant problem with using playing time as your primary incentive is that it doesn't get distributed equally. What happens when a guy who is redshirting or buried on the depth chart makes a mistake? You can't take away playing time if he isn't getting any in the first place, and if you can't use physical and/or monetary punishments then your only course of action is suspension or expulsion from the team, which in the long run is a detriment to the team as the player has lost practice time or the team has lost a potential future star.
I'm not sure that fines are the answer, but in this changing environment of college football it is definitely a conversation worth having.
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What tools do the coaches have left to enforce the player's end of the contract?
Instead of taking a player's money, take their time. Make them clean the locker rooms on a Friday night. Make them wake up early for fitness. I don't understand the thought process that taking money is the best punishment. IMO, this also reinforces the idea that money can be a means of avoiding responsibility. Don't feel like going to class? Have an extra $10? Not something you want to teach our players.
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I could be wrong but I think the issue is that they can't do a lot of that stuff because of coaches being accused of abusing the players. Also I'm pretty sure the NCAA limits the amount of time the players can spend on football activities.
Assuming all of the above is correct, how else are you suppose to instill discipline? There's a really easy way to hang on to your cash, follow the rules.
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"Cincinnati's senior associate of athletics Maggie McKinley confirmed that the wording in the players' grant-in-aid contracts freely allows the university to reduce or discontinue the funding at its discretion."
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Comments
I am sure you will hear much more about this coming out from other schools
It is not a good idea to fine student athletes that don't even get pay. It would make sense if they are paid employees.
Coach Beamer has been doing it right for 29 years by making violators run at 6 in the morning.
Did you miss the part where making players run at 6am was no longer allowed? That's why they looked into expanding the fines from just bowl stipend deductions for infractions during bowl season...
Wow, Whit Babcock shut this down immediately in his defense, and now his old school is trying to go ahead with it. Cincy has definitely shifted some of the attention off of us. Seems like it was a conversation that needed to be had. Nobody has any idea what the COL impact is going to be
That will keep him from becoming our next head coach.
Even after the monitor pictures were released this afternoon I've seen more on ESPN's website about this than about our own situation. Shoutouts to Cinci for taking some of the heat off.
Cinci be all like:
And all of a sudden no one can look away or even think about anything but.
Tubs taking one for the team. Thanks, guy.
No kidding. I will have to hear it from Tommy himself before I believe that Frank didn't ask him for a favor.
Whit still knows a few connections at Cincy I'm sure....
That definitely helps or adds fuel to the fire, whatever your perspective is.
I provided the exclusive pictures of phone call on another thread.
I've seen these pictures.
The more I think about this, the more I keep flopping sides. A scholarship athelete accepts certain responsibilities and in return they get an education and a COL stipend. If an athelete doesn't live up to their responsibilities, then they are in breach of contract. THEN, you factor in the four year scholarship. So you can't give them athletic punishments, monetary punishments, AND the player is guarenteed a scholarship for all four years? What tools do the coaches have left to enforce the player's end of the contract?
just my fiddy cent
I don't think it's a bad idea, just bad PR given today's college football public debates over money.
Playing time. Each violation comes with x number of plays you miss the next game.
But as others pointed out, that punishes the whole team. Say your QB has to sit out a quarter because he did something stupid and would have otherwise received a 50 dollar fine. Then your star receiver may not have had that three touchdown game that got all the scouts attention and he doesn't get drafted as highly.
I know it's a bit of a stretch but still, why should the whole team be responsible for one person's actions?
There has to be other ways, I guess I'm just not seeing them.
Then it makes everyone accountable to the rest of the team. You screw up and it's everyone that suffers, so it gives more incentive to get it right initially.
Adds an extra layer of incentive to not mess up. I don't see how that's a bad thing.
I guarantee everyone who supports the idea of fines is thinking the same thing.
Let's look at it this way. You make your star player sit out a quarter. Then you lose the game. Maybe that game was your only conference loss of the year and caused you to miss out on the conference championship. Coaches get bonuses and schools get some incentives from their contracts with uniform companies for that. So now that missed quarter has cost the school, let's just call it $100,000. But what if that game was your only loss of the season and now you missed out on the playoff. That mistake just cost your team, your school, and your conference a couple million. But we could have just charged you $50 and been square. You're right though, let's have a couple million dollars less coming to the school instead of charging a player $50.
by the same token, a butterfly could flap its wings in SE Asia and cause a hurricane that causes millions of dollars in damages to the gulf coast. Ergo, we should do away with all butterflies.
funny thing is, I don't oppose fines, but let's not go to crazy hypotheticals to make a point. It's just as bad as people saying that Foster would fine a kid who's living in a cardboard box trying to feed his 6 kids just because the rules say so.
Before anyone gets carried away with hypotheticals, does anyone know how much we have actually fined players? I mean has the season total been in the 5 figures, or has it been under $1000 TOTAL. I would venture a guess it's on the lower side, as it should be, with the "rules of engagement" set forth up front. The infractions aren't things that are simply made up and can be used against someone willy nilly.
We have an equipment department, so there should be close to zero fines in that department. There's no excuse. The tutor thing shouldn't be an issue, and missing classes happens here and there, but in the day and age of twitter and easy access via mobile devices, stuff gets reported quickly and easily. Again, I can't see the team rolling up a huge amount of fines, which means the rules are in place to keep things in line and it's working.
Not trying to go into hypotheticals, but saying the entire team should be punished for one person's room not being clean is the wrong answer. Punish the entire team with conditioning. Punish them with two-a-days. But to punish them by making them sit is wrong. Benching a player is for when they've continuously violated team rules, are in legal trouble, or do something that is legitimately wrong.
A significant problem with using playing time as your primary incentive is that it doesn't get distributed equally. What happens when a guy who is redshirting or buried on the depth chart makes a mistake? You can't take away playing time if he isn't getting any in the first place, and if you can't use physical and/or monetary punishments then your only course of action is suspension or expulsion from the team, which in the long run is a detriment to the team as the player has lost practice time or the team has lost a potential future star.
I'm not sure that fines are the answer, but in this changing environment of college football it is definitely a conversation worth having.
Instead of taking a player's money, take their time. Make them clean the locker rooms on a Friday night. Make them wake up early for fitness. I don't understand the thought process that taking money is the best punishment. IMO, this also reinforces the idea that money can be a means of avoiding responsibility. Don't feel like going to class? Have an extra $10? Not something you want to teach our players.
I could be wrong but I think the issue is that they can't do a lot of that stuff because of coaches being accused of abusing the players. Also I'm pretty sure the NCAA limits the amount of time the players can spend on football activities.
Assuming all of the above is correct, how else are you suppose to instill discipline? There's a really easy way to hang on to your cash, follow the rules.
"Cincinnati's senior associate of athletics Maggie McKinley confirmed that the wording in the players' grant-in-aid contracts freely allows the university to reduce or discontinue the funding at its discretion."
which is the only way they can legally do it. and it is money they don't receive versus money they have to pay back
the more publicity this gets, the greater the perception that players are, in fact, employees.
There are fines in lots of aspects of life, which doesn't make the person who owes them an employee.
If you don't take your library books back on time, you don't work for the library.
If you get a traffic ticket, you might get fined. And they don't care if you're on scholarship or not.
Fun fact that I didn't actually know until today is that Cincinnati has the highest COA in FBS. More than every P5 school.
I bet every recruit the Cinci contacts is made well aware of this.