So as most of the other threads today are talking about CFBs Demi's and when he should I don't want this thread to turn into that.
Firing a coach mid-season is disrespectful IMO, especially to someone that has built the program.
So understanding that that is not happening this year where do we go from here. The good news is GT is already 0-2 in ACC play and still have to play Clemson and FSU. So I don't think they'll win the coastal which gives me some solace. I don't know what games we will win from here on out. To me they are all 50/50. I can see every game going either way. The Coastal is a total crap shoot right now and I think UNC may be the team to beat in the Coastal as it stands now. *shudders*
All that being said where do we us going, realistically, the rest of the year especially if Brewer gets back next week?
Comments
Beamer must go at year's end.
It's time. And really, Whit needs to have that talk with him this week and Frank needs to promptly announce he's retiring at season's end. The program has fallen off too much to allow another year of this. Not in the lone sport that makes this school money. To much invested in this football team to allow apathy to set in.
I agree.
It's the big boy decision to make.
The overwhelming majority agrees with you, but I think OP wanted intended to create a thread on how to salvage this season or whether or not that is doable.
My point is that this season probably isn't salvageable. We are getting smacked around and we aren't even in the worst part of the schedule. Looking at the remainder of the year, I don't see this team beating the likes of UNC, GT, Duke, BC, and Miami. Teams with good OLs that can run will maul us up front. I see our bowl steak ending as we win 3 games the rest of the way, tops.
So, to me, the only real decision left is what to do with Frank and how to not disrespect the hell out of him in the process.
Well now that we are on topic, I disagree. I think the old saying goes "you are never as good as you look on your best day and never as bad as you look on your worst day." Our defense held Pitt in check despite injuries and the fact that they have a great run game and the best receiver in the ACC. Our offense has looked average or above average in every game except this one.
I definitely agree that a day like today should NEVER have happened if you want to make a reasonable argument that we are getting better, so yeah clean house after the season. But I still have hope for this season. I'm not saying we are gonna win out or anything, but I still believe there is an argument to be made for a bowl game and I really don't like the idea of giving up on a season before we are half-way through. I think everyone is caught up in post-game emotions right now and needs to take a breather.
Some of us do. most of us know that we can't give up on the team, even if we've had to give up on the coaches. All we want is to see them fight now...show us they haven't given up, and we'll keep supporting them, albeit from afar, since we won't put money into a bad coaching situation without knowing the problem will be fixed.
Pitt mauled us up front but they only put up 17 points... thats not the reason we lost today
But then we may risk losing all the big recruits we have committed......oh wait, never mind
I'm finally at a point where I don't disagree with your first sentence, but .....
Battle at Bristol?
Is that a consideration here? I mean, we get that game, biggest crowd ever, etc, etc, and we fire Frank so he can't coach it? Are there alternatives - like Bud is named coach, but Frank gets "Coach Emeritus" for the Bristol game?
I know, that sounds kind of silly. But PR is PR, and bad endings with a long-term coach in a sport can impact the program. Or are we far enough into the mediocrity hole, that we shouldn't care about that?
I don't think so. They'll honor Frank at the game, but I don't think he'd get any kind of special arrangement. It's either his team or it isn't. I don't think neutering and putting him out there while Bud is really the coach would benefit anybody.
I dont care about it, but I agree with your sentiment, the AD and boosters will (EDIT: keep frank). frank stays for next year unless we're winless here on out. This year is 35 years a head coach tho... Next year tho, he gets to coach that game, hits 70 in October...yeah next year.
Yeah, the 'one last time,' or whatever, isn't a great idea, and maybe recruits don't care, either. But if we were to launch him prior to B@B, candidate coaches (and the staffs they need) might notice. A Bowden-like ending might be okay for F$U, but we need to work harder to keep relevant.
It's a tough situation. I've found myself in the "Frank pretty much as long as he wants," but a) I've found that group getting smaller, and b) this game just struck a nerve. And it was not a good look during the opening shots of Lane - lot of empties, including the student area. And it can get worse.
Yep and I expect it will. That's the only thing that gives me pause about Frank being back next year...Whit seeing all those empty seats...and no merch leaving the shelves...especially if the mBB team is getting a good crowd and staying relevant.
I think the recruits do care. If Frank is coming back next year, everyone will know it is his last. The guys that sign this year will have one year of their eligibility wasted in the transition to the next coaching staff. If I were a recruit, I wouldn't sign.
We can't let our respect for Frank destroy this program. We aren't like FSU, Florida, Ohio State. If we fall back down, it could take well over a decade before we get even close to where we were, if it ever happens at all.
Thing is, we already fell
True, but right now there is some level of talent on our team. Not quite what we had five years ago, but enough to do something with.
A couple weak recruiting cycles this year and next would drop us from a 6-6 team to 2 or 3 wins if we're lucky.
Two or 3 recruiting cycles? Hate to say it but we are no longer a 6-6 team. That was last year. I hope I am wrong, but after witnessing yesterday's lifeless debacle in the rain, I see this season's total number of wins as 3 to 4 wins tops. The damage has already been done and a major change to this resting-on-our-laurels culture must be started now. Alum07 has it nailed.
Realistically, the game of college football has just evolved past Coach Beamer. Certain spiritual texts say we're supposed to live in the present. But looking at the past few seasons, nothing is getting better. The coaching is not, the recruiting is not, and our relevancy is not better.
We've all seen that Urban Meyer OSU "they're coming" trailer. A shit ton of other schools who haven't won jack shit, are all on there. And "we" were the one's who beat them last year! Our mascot or helmet logo never show up in any of the commercials or sports shows. We've been getting no respect.
Mack Brown and Bobby Bowden got forced out. I'd rather not see it here, I'd rather see our great coach win.
We're kind of working our way out of the mediocrity hole...into a worse hole.
Well, I was gonna imply that, but .....
So we keep him around to get beat down in Bristol and wither on the vine the rest of the year? I don't see how recruiting is going to rebound with him here, so things there just get another year worse. His legacy and the program's reputation are tarnished yet a little more. There should be no "bad ending". Beamer should retire and be honored greatly when he does. The spectacle in Bristol becomes a celebration of Beamer's career and an introduction to our new era.
There should be no firing and Beamer is the only one who can decide whether things get ugly, unfortunately. The college football world knows it's time and no one rational is going to fault VT for moving on at this point.
Is there a benefit to having him announce it now? Would that be better than Whit letting them fight for their jobs and then firing them at the end?
If our coaches don't know they are fighting for their jobs, there is something wrong.
the alternative being knowing that they're already fired
I would love for our coaches and team to turn this around and get to at least 7-5 regular season. If that happens and only little Beams is let go, I will be satisfied to let Frank have his victory lap next year.
Especially if they line up Chad Morris as the new HC.
It'd be pretty tough to keep that under wraps.
Not unless they're gonna have the new coach "found" before bowl season so he can recruit some kids...
I think it does have some value. Two situations that come to mind (May or May not be applicable to our situation):
To point 1 do we have a coach on staff that can take over like that?
To point 2 Florida has recruiting/ name recognition status that we do not have
Not suggesting that this is the best course of action, but I would vote Bud or Steiny
We're not Florida, but we're an attractive enough job that it would draw interest. If we knew Frank was not coming back, what reason would we have to not share this? I think it prevents the loss of donors and it gives us a head start on finding a new coach. The sooner we have a coach lined up, the sooner he/she can start recruiting, assembling staff, etc.
I think he gets one more. 30th year, Battle of Bristol, the fact that he is under contract.
I don't understand the BoB theory that keeps being brought up. We bring Frank back for another season so we can get absolutely smoked in that game? How does that help anything except for cross something off Beamer's bucket list?
Correct, it might be what beamer wants, but it wouldn't do anything but hurt the program
It's the kind of thing boosters would agree to with a HC to get a smooth transition. Realistically, we either force him out and ruin his legacy this year, or we watch the boosters/AD agree to let him see the B@B and retire supporting the program, legacy in tact...
WTF is a "smooth transition"?
I'd argue it's giving someone four more years to rebuild a team, not another year of whatever this is.
Smooth transition is this case means Frank remains a powerful and happy ambassador for the program. He doesn't make a PR stink, and makes it clear that "he knew it was time." It means our program doesn't get drug through the dirt as a fanbase that abandoned and slandered a man who built the program.
Let's be real about this. If this rebuild didn't result in a team that can beat ECU and Pitt, the experiment is over.
I love where Beamer took the program, but some adult decisions need to be made. It's time.
I do hope that Beamer is able to win out and get to the ACC championship, but I will be seriously surprised if that happens.
We go on to ncstate.
this times 1,000
Turkey is gonna get mauled by a Wolfpack methinks... :(
There is 0.00% chance Frank gets fired midseason unless he goes full Woody Hayes.
The thing is, anything can happen in the coastal because none of the teams are that good. We could pretty much lose or win all of our remaining games. UNC looked good, so I think it would be pretty difficult to stop them, but it's certainly not impossible. We could possibly win the Coastal We could also finish 7 or 8th.
Finishing 8th in a 7-team division would be an all new low.
That said, if this kind of performance was going on under anyone not named Frank Beamer, he's likely fired this weekend.
No he would have been fired last year Wake Forest
I advocated at the time he should have been.
You are insane if you think that most schools would fire a coach 1/2 way through the season for a bad game.
Coaches get fired mid season for breaking the law and abuse of power, not losing a game.
For the sake of fuck, you people need to get your shit together. Yes, that was awful to watch yesterday, and yes, Beamer is definitely at the end of his career, and it may be time to burn it all down and rebuild from scratch. But be reasonable. Some of the stuff that I've read this weekend... damn,...just damn.
Also, let's look at the two teams we just played -- ECU and Pitt, the two teams who seem to have our number. Probably the worst two teams to have back to back on our schedule.
I mean, Pitt...in the six times we've played them since I was a freshman, we beat them once. Why did we expect yesterday to go any different?
ECU, we've been setting them up for years and putting a target on our back.
And the teams they lost to - showed up in big ways on Saturday.
ECU lost by 7 to Florida, and were driving to score when Kemp inexplicably dropped the ball, literally. Florida beats the daylights of Ole Miss this weekend.
Iowa, who won on a last second 57 yd FG against Pitt, beat Wisconsin on the road.
Everyone is also dismissing the fact that the smartest man in defense was on the other side of the field this week. Did you really think Narduzzi was going to allow us to put up points with a back up QB and a struggling running game?
Also, Pitt's defense is very good. I am guessing they end the season with a D ranked in the top 20.
Getting to a bowl game will be an incredible accomplishment by this team.
I think UNC/Duke wins the coastal, one of them beats Pitt, and thats the winner.
As for us, I think we watch and see if Loeffler can do something with the few pieces he has, we applaud the effort of the players no matter the result, and we expect beamer to be gone. I hope Whit is looking for a new HC, because I don't think Bud, Shane, Loeffler, or anyone on this staff can change the culture on the inside. We need a special recruiter, with a fiery disposition, and a good eye for coaching talent...
Whenever Brewer comes back, we'll be able to move the ball more efficiently on offense...until another team sells out to confuse our oline, and hits him...we know he's tough, and he's a baller, but he's still small. Our d is looking like it can compete with everyone, and stop no-one... 4-8 or 5-7...we miss a bowl, and that's what finally gets Beamer/Whit on the same page with regards to his leaving...still not sure it's this year though...Beamer really wants that "Battle at Bristol" game.
Respectfully, can the program afford to give Frank Beamer another year? As someone else already said, VT does not have National Championships to hang our hats one. Heck, we don't even have multiple BCS bowl wins to hang our hats on. If Frank Beamer is given another year and we go 6-6, what do you think happens to the program? We haven't even been relevant in the ACC Coastal Division in years.
I don't think we can afford it, but we as fans, can never underestimate the power of old alumni with money (boosters) with regards to respecting an old man who only wants one more year...shitty or not. If we keep the bowl streak, I think there's unnecessary pressure on the new HC to at least do that, and I'm not sure they'll be able to. The new HC needs to show recruiting ability, solid staff choices, and the demeanor and passion to connect with and motivate the players...
It's a drastic move, but I would consider firing Loeffler tomorrow as the sacrificial lamb. Reinstall Stiney as OC with a commitment to running I-Formation, 2TE ball control offense with some option with Motley out of the shotgun. Not that Stiney is that good of an OC, but this would be a public commitment to get back to physical football. Promote Lawson's HS coach to QB coach.
I might also announce Beamers end of the year retirement now as well. Just see if we can squeeze a few more wins out of this box of rocks.
Not sure if joking or serious, never ocainnewstine again!
I cannot give you enough legs!
Oh HELL NO! FUCK NO! NOT THAT SHIT AGAIN! NEVER AGAIN!!! Sorry, but I stand by it.
You too! Applause!!!!!!
I see what you're saying, but I literally think the fanbase would implode if Beamer re-named Stiney as OC. That basically is saying the past three years were a waste of everyone's time, and we're back where we started. Might as well fire Beamer right then and there.
I would fire Beamer now, promote Bud to interim and see what he does rest of the year. I assure you Whit has a good list of potentials ready to contact ASAP. While I was at it I would fire little Shane and bring back Billy for the rest of the year
There's absolutely no way they fire Beamer mid-season. Not after 20+ years and getting us on the map. Your best bet would be for Beamer to announce he is stepping down after the season. If he does that, we can pretty actively pursue the next head coach throughout the year.
I would never fire Beamer mid-season, but think the best case scenario is for Beamer to propose Bud as interim to Whit and hope it happens. Let Bud have half a season for his loyalty over the years and as an audition to be the man. I for one think he would prove his worth.
I would rather have a chimpanzee picking plays out of a hat than the dumpster fire that was Stinespring's offensive coordinating.
Statistically, Stiney was a far superior OC than Loeffler ever has been.
Cumulative yes. But that was seven years versus two and a half.
Spot Loeffler a Tyrod and see what that score is. Is anybody calling what we had in 2007-08 an offense? Fuck no.
When we start chanting "PUNT IT!!!" on first down again, I'll compare something to a Stiney-run offense. Didn't see that today.
Stiney had wayyyyyy better talent and depth...
Two words.....eye test. The complaints coming for Beamer now are not nearly as bad as the Fire Stiney contingent.
to this day I'll never forget the day that I called a play before stiney did and it worked. I was sitting in the bleachers, at 17 years old and look at my brother (a student at the time) and say, I dont get it, we have boykin and coale on the wings, an incredible qb with the option ability (tyrod) and david wilson as a third down option, run a clear out with deep out routes to draw the safety's outside (iunno a 10 yard out) and run wilson on a go route. (NC state had been covering wilson with LBs all afternoon) if they cover him in zone the WRs will be open on the 15 yard out routes, if they're in man he'll beat the linebackers.
THE VERY NEXT PLAY STINEY RUNS WILSON ON A GO ROUTE FOR A 40 YARD GAIN. will never forget that, better throw it wouldve been a TD
just saying, throwing my name in for OC haha
I did that yesterday in the stands. I turned to the people around me and said as much as it is a dirty word, a screen pass would be good here. Low and behold, we threw one for a first down to Bucky.
Dirty word? You mean with a one dimensional offense and an offensive line that is getting beat by an overly aggressive defense on blitz after blitz and you have the audacity to call a play that is designed to get the ball out in space and on the perimeter? You sir, are a genius.
In all seriousness, I'm completely appalled that Lefty didn't call more screens to try and slow up that aggressive pass rush. And especially more bubbles which are basically an extension of the run game, which was nonexistent.
The crazy thing is that was basically the first and last time we ever called a dw wheel route
I know he was such a matchup problem that we never utilized
I can see us winning out and I can see us losing more than not. I don't think we'll go winless or anything though. Hopefully we can turn it around against NCSU and get things going again. A big win would be nice and not by the skin of our teeth.
I don't know how the defense came into this season be talked of as possibly one of the best that has been there and then put up why they have. Dadi and Ken have gotten some pressure but are still with zero sacks.
I think Motely is good but obviously not the future and once Brewer is back will be starting. I think Brewers ability and knowledge in the passing game is just way above Motely's. Hopefully with him back in and "change" we can get to see an offense something to what we saw against Purdue and some semblance of a running game.
I think this raises a pretty good question. What happens if we win out? We know what happens if we go 6-6 or miss a bowl, but say Beamer actually fulfills his promise for "change" and we go 9-3 with a trip to Charlotte? Do we applaud his coaching and give him another year? Or is his dismissal already a foregone conclusion?
I will be honest, my feeling is that if we go 8-5 or better Frank and the coaching staff will deserve the opportunity to take the victory lap next year. Anything less and Frank should be asked to leave with most of the staff.
Anybody new coming in is probably going to want their own staff and not have potential competition looking over their shoulder (Foster).
8-5 get's a coaching staff "a victory lap?
I guess it depends on how the contracts are structured, but that sure seems like an awful lot of money to me. You expect people to get better when they know it's their last year a year in advance?
I'm guessing Whit is running the numbers for a variety of scenarios about now.
My thought is if our coaches turn things around enough to get six more wins, than beamer has done enough to earn the last year of his contract.
Sadly I don't think we are going to have to worry about getting to 8-5.
The problem is, that's another year of the feeling we all have right now, AND recruiting.
Hopefully, Frank does the right thing for the program after this season.
I think Beams can be forced (he has in the past) to make necessary changes. I want one more season out of him.
Hopefully RB rotation is one of them.
Oh my
To what end, though? What could CFB possibly do in 2016 that he hasn't been able to do in 2012, 2013, 2014, or 2015?
The man is a pillar of VT football, but he no longer is VT football.
He could make a big PR scene in Bristol...that's about it...oh and hit 70...
I still have never been able to get the hype around the Bristol game. Seems like a whole lot of marketing dollars spent on what will be a mediocre game.
As long as it's more entertaining than the 2009 "Game of the Century," it will be a success.
I live in Bristol and I think it's definitely a regional thing. It is huge here however. People were camped out Thursday night to have a chance to buy 4 tickets to the game. Bristol is split by TN and Va and it's a huge unplayed rivalry here
We are gonna struggle all yr, beamer retires, whit hires Justin fuente from memphis, a Gary Patterson decipal.
I like that hire...
Now that's an idea! He is at top of my wish list
He has been mine, young guy, good recruiter, played ball at OU. Pretty sure he is on whits radar.
P.J Fleck would likely be at the top of my list
Is this before or after we back up a dump truck full of money to RichRod's house?
Other random names Ive thought.
Herman at Houston- Meyer disciple.
Kirby Smart- Saban's DC, just like Bud and Narduzzi he is waiting for the right school to prove he can win. Likely wouldnt want ACC, but money and control talks.
Chad Morris- dude is actually making SMU look competent, nough said.
And who know's maybe Bruce Arians will wake up one morning and decide he is tired of the NFL.
But yes Fleck is a hot commodity and we could do much worse I think.
SMU lost to JMU two weeks ago
Not like we haven't done that before.
Isn't he from Illinois? If the interim coach at Illinois doesn't get the job, I'd imagine that PJ Fleck would really want that job.
decipal? #decipal
you knew what he meant...disciple....
1 decipal = 1/10th of a pal
Also equal to 10 millipals
true but I'd rather have decapal.
Team finishes 6-6, win another "whatever" bowl after which Beamer announces next year will be his last season.
At this point if we qualify for a bowl. I want to hear little Beamer is moving on at a minimum.
Unfortunately, I think we only bowl qualify if Bud can figure out how to stop a running QB. I think he has done that successfully once, Denard.
If by moving on, you mean going back to coaching Defense and ST's full time then I am all for it.
I understand the desire, but it was a square peg round hole to hire him as RB's to begin with, he had 0 experience on Offense previously.
I agree. From all reports he was a decent special teams coach. But I got laughed at when I said I would rather have him as Head Coach than running back coach anymore. In our system, the HC is responsible for recruiting, if we go for it on 4th down, and special teams. The OC and DC's should be responsible for their shit.
6-6 is as optimistic as I can be.
+ 1 or -1 on 6-6 is definitely where we are right now.
All America Internal Parasite Bowl in Juarez. Very fitting.
I go to the liquor store to restock before the next game.
We need a good young coach, and we need to get rid of 1 also, I'm sorry but shane beamer, dude has no business being asst hc and our rb's coach, that's 1 of their major problems.
Fleck would be 2 on my list.
I don't think we really know where this team is. Maybe, some of you think as I do that we are much better than we've shown. And that to me is on the coaching. Of course players make mistakes, but the offensive play calling is predictable, no one back is being given an opportunity to find his potential, and the D's weaknesses have been found out.
Beamer apparently gave a different spiel after the game today. Let's see if he's good to his word. A JC Coleman run to open the game on Friday and I'll know he's not.
I think the realistic next step is we all go to Lane on Friday night and continue to cheer on the team.
Personally, I want to either see Brewer or Lawson under center on Friday night. That of course depends on Brewer's rate of recovery. I love Motley, and he's a great kid, but I think we have more to gain by getting Lawson some experience. I don't think any QB we put out there is going to change the course of this season, so play the best one if he's healthy or the freshman for the experience.
I love CFB and all he has done for VT and not just football. Understand people taking up for him and saying he deserves the benefit of the doubt and time to turn things around (although few and far between now). He has earned that loyalty, to a point. But shouldn't loyalty work both ways? Shouldn't he be grateful for the opportunity he was given and the fact the university stuck with him and gave him time to create the program he has. Can't he see that the program is mediocre and not going anywhere and that he is 70 years old and had a serious surgery last year? He is a very wealthy man and has earned it but obviously the money and the power have become the priority and not the program. It is a shame after all his success he is putting Tech in this awkward position when he could preserve his legacy and gracefully step down. In reality he should have 2 years ago. Loyalty needs to work both ways. Thanks again for everything but shame on you for putting the ball in Whits court. Although he will find us a great coach I am sure.
Nepotism and a weak AD has brought the VT football program to it's knees. The amount of offensive talent that has been squandered the past 15+ seasons along with a top defensive unit and to never make it back to the national championship game is a travesty. I saw the writing on the wall after the 2007 loss in the Orange Bowl to Kansas. Beamer would not make the required changes to take the next step as a program. And when questioned on the areas that needed addressing his arrogance was staggering. I knew the program would end up like this, even if I didn't want it to.
Now the chickens have come home to roost. So, what's left? Quite simply, the end of the bowl streak. Beamer rides this rolling dumpster fire of ineptitude to a 5-7 season with a loss to UVA and an end to the bowl streak. He then packs his bags as he should have done 3 years ago, and VT moves on to rebuilding the great program he built and then tore down.
This x1000
Agree, but I have a hard time seeing even 5 wins after yesterday's turnstile impersonation by the O-line.
Unfortunately, deep down in my heart, I have the feeling that we somehow eek-out a 6-6 season and CFB is given another year to ruin the program he built.
I agree with HokieJeep, regardless lets go out there and cheer our boys (minus the coaching staff, I don't really give a rats behind about any of em except for Bud) on!!! This isn't entirely their fault, and I'm sure they want us to have their backs out there. Let's make Lane SCARY again everyone!!!!
Beyond that, Beamer Jr. and Laughle...I mean Loeffler HAVE to go. Immediately if not sooner. I think elder Beamer also has to go too. Let's hit the restart button and try and rebuild.
As far as Friday goes, I love Motley's heart, and he did the best he could do IMHO, but if Brewer is healthy, he should get the nod with Lawson backing him up. OR if Motley plays, get away from this "complex NFL crap" and install a package that Motley can run, AKA an option package. QUIT RUNNING DADGUM JET SWEEPS. Create and utilize a power run game. That's about all I can think of for now...
^^^This. The kids need our support, just like you may or may not support a war, but you still support the troops. Also, everyone seems to agree that recruiting is a big part of our problems. Well what does almost every kid who enjoys their visit to Lane and every one who commits say? They talk about the crowd and how hyped everyone is and the environment of game time. We have to remember that there are potentially 60,000 recruiters up there in the stands for every home game, and what we show as fans can be just as important to a 16-17 year old kid as anything the coaches say.
Sadly, VT football is now almost, if not completely, irrelevant. That 100-yards of total offense, 9-net yards of rushing, 7-sack dumpster fire of a game I drove four hours to watch has made that crystal clear in my mind. I was all for Frank announcing next year would be it and letting him coach his B@B dream game, and go to ND, and hope we win a few games next year. But I no longer feel that way. Like many have said, he made VT football, but that's over now. He needs to show some real leadership and announce his retirement at the end of the year.
As for the rest of this year? We can either keep trying the same old shit and hope we win enough games to make it to a bowl (although at this point I don't see how we beat anyone else on our schedule), or we can scrap it all and start playing Lawson. We've already burned his redshirt so let's get him in there and let him get the experience he's going to need next year now. Things can't get any worse. And for the love of God, please take that infernal jet sweep out of the damn playbook! It's this season's bubble screen, and it's a piece of shit!
We could get him hurt...our oline isn't exactly great. Get him in? yes. one possession per half would be nice.
Maybe whenever Motley is injured we could put him in. Apparently not, but theoretically it would have been good timing
If Frank is the firgurehead for that game I'm happy. But there needs to be a real coach on the sideline to start the next season.
Palmetto is correct. VT probably deserves Frank's resignation at the end of this season. Shane needs to pursue his coaching career elsewhere. According to HH Shane is partially responsible for 1. That's right 1 commit this year. Wasn't that the reason we needed him so badly? I am sure it was not to chair the VT running back commitee. Lefty seems like a pretty smart guy. How about we draw up an offense Lawson can run. Go Hokies Let's find a way to go Bowling
Lawson should start (or at least play a shitload) until Brewer gets back healthy. We burned his shirt already so let's get him ready for next season.
I feel bad for Brewer coming back, knowing the O-line problems we have, he's only going to take more pounding, and likely get injured again. But, maybe he's the spark the team needs. Just a pitiful performance today on offense, after a horrid performance last week on defense, but even so, there's not anyone left on our schedule that we can't beat, and as we've seen the past couple years, there's nobody on our schedule that can't beat us either.
I'd really like to see McMillan given his chance to start, and take 70% of the snaps next week, what have we got to lose at this point, let the young man show if he can go... he's the only one that can make a defender miss, and with our O-line, that's a job requirement right now
In my book, Beamer gets one more year. Let him have Bristol and @ Notre Dame, which is definitely a bucket list game for anyone. But that should be all.
In the interim, Shane must go. At the end of this season, he needs to find a new job elsewhere.
As far as this season, I'd like to go to a bowl and beat loluva. Those are my expectations. I don't think I'm asking for too much. But that doesn't mean I'll get it.
So Frank is going to fire Shane and then coach one more year? No way
Exactly. We saw how long it took to get the Stinespring and O'Cain dumpster fire put out, and he still kept a portion of that dynamic duo. No way he embarrasses his son and cans him, especially if Frank has a goodbye tour coming up.
If Beamer wants to play next year against Tennessee and Notre Dame, he should be winning against ECU and Pitt this year.
We don't owe him those games. We owed him this rebuild. We'll know if it succeeded THIS year.
The honorable thing for Beamer to do is to step down this year, and that's my expectation of what he'll do. Stick to his word.
You're right. If he wants to be coach next year, he should be winning now.
But you know what I did yesterday? I sat on my couch, queued up 3 screens of college football games, and watched a bunch of great games, and some not-so-great ones, until my heart was content.
You know who I owe my passion for all of college football to? Frank motherfucking Beamer.
I didn't pay any attention to college football at all until I went to VT in 00. I didn't even know, until years later, that we had played in the national championship game just 8 months prior to moving into Slusher Hall.
Now, I love college football. With the exception of the World Cup, there is little I enjoy move than sitting on my couch all day long on a crisp fall Saturday and watching the pageantry of the SEC, the pompousness of the Big Ten, and the rivalries that make it all so exciting for me.
When the weather cools down, I expect my college football fix.
When I get bundled up and go outside to rake leaves, I expect to come back in to see a noon game gracing my television screen.
When I come home from work on a Thursday, I think of us rolling into Clemson and watching Macho Harris single-handedly destroy their entire team.
And when I'm to tired to think at midnight on a Saturday night, I check the football lineup to hope beyond all hope that Hawaii is playing a home game against Directional U that's just about to start.
You know who I owe that to? Frank motherfucking Beamer. I went to Virginia Tech and found a small pleasure that I'll likely never relinquish. And do you know who I have to thank for that?
Frank motherfucking Beamer.
So who the fuck am I to tell him he can't coach a game at Notre Dame? What the fuck have I done to make myself believe that I should have a say in how he goes out? Am I disappointed in the state of the program I love the most? Hell motherfucking yes I am.
But to say I don't owe him a thing....is just wrong. I owe him more than he'll ever know. For that, he deserves to take as long as he wants to decide to move on. I just hope he'll be the one to decide that, in January of 2017.
Yeah, and that's why he has got 4 years of time to try to steady the ship. I would agree with you if people were calling for his head in 2012 or 13, but it's 2015 now. This can't go on forever.
Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but Frank got his leeway for the 4 years he had to try and make things right. He failed. The same attitude you have downed FSU for almost a whole decade. The difference is FSU has a much better pedigree and recruiting advantage enough to power through their down years.
Virginia Tech Football is more than one person. Frank was pivotal in making us a powerhouse and every Hokie will always be grateful for that, but Frank is no longer Virginia Tech football. Whether or not he retires this year or next, people have to realize the school is bigger than the individual and that we will be okay once we move on.
Maybe it's because I'm young (graduated in '14) and have a different perspective and don't have that connection to Frank that many older people do, but to me we have already given him all we owed him that past few years. Now it's time for results so that the school we all love can still continue to succeed.
4 years? OK. I'll play.
Per wikipedia, Loeffler was hired January 18, 2013. This marks the starting point. Stiney was removed from OC after the 2012 season, per Hokiesports.com. This marks Frank's major shift in approach.
Which means the true freshmen of 2013 were Loeffler's first opportunity to work with fresh talent. True freshmen of 2013 were the starting point for his tenure, and he only had a month to recruit for signing day 2013. Let's say he had all his guys to fit his system recruited in one month. This is patently absurd, but let's say it happened, just to give the benefit of the doubt to the side suggesting that we should already be rebuilt.
Which means January 2017 is the four year mark for the overhaul that included the inclusion of Loeffler.
Four years, to me, is the standard by which a college coach should be judged. Had Beamer made a major shift in philosophy, four years should be the standard. Expectation of two years is ignorantly hopeful (aka January 2015, which is this season). Three years isn't out of the question (next year). Four years gives you full information (2017 season).
Whit was hired Jan 24, 2014.
I will not argue against you if you had said he should have changed course at the end of 2011. Actually, I will. Tyrod Taylor played in the Orange Bowl for Virginia Tech in January 2011. The suggestion that we should have changed course in the same offseason after Tyrod was here is unsupportable. We thought we were in good form at that point. But let's say it was obvious we needed to change course, just to give even more credence to the idea that we should be already rebuilt by October 2015. That would mean the new era should be judged at the end of the 2015 season. So let's see what happens by the end of 2015. In this case, we still have seven games to go.
The O'Cainspring era ended in 2012, per Wikipedia (O'Cain was VT QB coach until 2012). Meaning we should wait until the end of 2016 until we judge whether Beamer's change in course has been effective. That means more than a year until we can judge for sure.
Every significant date regarding the change in organizational approach has been less than four years in the past. I do not know why the suggestion exists that we should be totally reformed from the fallacies of the 2011-2013 timeframe, but I disagree with it with every fiber of my being, even though I am extremely disappointed in the results I am seeing now.
I don't we should get into revisionist history because we feel bad now, because I remember feeling GREAT during Logan's first season as a starter in 2012. 2013 wasn't great. 2014 wasn't either. 2015 is still a transitional period in my mind, and I'm not willing to give up just quite yet.
I personally don't know how much worse you need to see it get before realizing that Loeffler is proving to be a bad hire. Saturday was the 2nd lowest offensive production ever under Beamer at VT. Ever. If we showed that level of ineptitude in Loeffler's first year or last year, okay. But we are now in year three of your designated four year project. Almost 75% of the way through that period, and we have the 2nd worst offensive day ever under Beamer. Showing that poor a level of offense at this point is not indicative of anything that is substantially improving, IMO. I've been a strong Lefty supporter and giving Beamer time until yesterday, but I just can't feel positive about the rebuild effort after that. Do we need to see negative offensive yards before we can say the Loeffler experiment isn't working?
In addition to the VT00WF, Miami 2014, Duke 2013, Maryland 2013, Alabama 2013 games.
Saturday was bad but almost all of our worst offensive performances since 1998 happened in the past 2 years. Under Loeffler. Yeah yeah he was new the first year but I don't know of many new coordinators doing that poorly their first year. Good coordinators adjust to the personnel they have.
That depends on what you call "worst offensive performances," I watched an entire season of WR screens and QB draws, and nothing else...
Statistically, Stinespring never had as bad a day as we did yesterday. I'm not waxing nostalgic about the Stiney era, but it's very hard to defend Loeffler after that.
No argument, but Stinespring had the benefit of players that were spectacular talents, and he wasted more of their time and talent that he used. When we could literally look at teh alignment and say play 1 or play2, and be correct 100% of the game, it doesn't matter if those kids are being men amongst boys, the coach still sucks.
I will agree with that. But how do we know Loeffler would have fared better with the players that Stiney had? I don't think that Loeffler does a good job of scheming around the skills and strengths of his personnel. Case in point: essentially the same roster that Loeffler led to the bottom of the SEC in 2012 went to the title game a year later under Malzahn. I know that was a terrible situation that Lefty was put in, but you can't tell me he didn't have talent to work with. I think he is intent on running his scheme, regardless of whether or not he has the players to execute it.
Loeffler's issue is simple, he believes in a simple-concepts pass-oriented O that works, and doesn't require huge talents to execute. He recruits huge talents to do so, but it appears to be in the wrong place, i.e. WR instead of Oline. I would argue that this appearance is unfair given the previous state of our Oline, the coaching turnover, and the fact that we've only really had two years of Oline development, where most Oline-men need 3 years to be solid, much less great. He doesn't really run a run-first offense like we're used to, which is why so many eyebrows raised at his initial hiring. Clamoring for a run-first I formation from a guy who doesn't really do that is ridiculous. We saw how well he can do that and we've seen how well he can do the pass-first thing. Let's see if the Oline can improve and make his system work, because it doesn't work without them blocking, and he does have the personnel to run it. The only place you can assert with any truth to it that he lacks those personnel are at WR. I'd argue Bucky should be a WR, as should a couple of our RBs.
"We thought we were in good form at that point." DO WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!
Is that why half hokie nation was clamoring for O'CainSpring's terminations? For how many years before then? I was saying fire them in '07...after we rebounded to great effect...
Frank fought the opinions of fans and alumni alike until he saw his ticket sales plummeting, and the attendance leaving Lane open for ACC games. He made some changes, 2 years late, at minimum, but he did make changes.
Suggesting that as the starting point for evaluating those coaches hired at the time makes sense. It doesn't for Frank. Frank wanted his staff, so he got to keep them, and we got to judge. Franks made changes, so we judge those coaches from that point, but we still judge Frank on those first two years. He had two chances to correct the issue, at minimum, before he did...those strikes don't go away. Even if they did, his decision to switch in 2013 only buys him next year.
You really think he can turn this around with the fanbase in arms, and the alumni demonstrably angry? Really think he can do that with this staff and recruiting falling further and further behind? Good for you. If he can I'll happily eat crow, but I don't think a disconnected, almost 70 year old man, unwilling to fight for or support his players, much less remember their names, can do that.
I didn't love how we looked under Stiney, but we were still winning. A lot. I wanted Stiney gone. But we were winning. A lot. Had we looked terrible at this point in the season but were 4-1, I doubt we'd be in such an uproar.
True. That's why it's Beamer's fault. His program, his culture. Win or lose.
I don't get why 4 years is a benchmark for judging a coach. Most new coordinators almost immediately have an impact on the program. Look at Auburn 2012-2013, Florida 2014-2015, heck even Pitt is looking vastly improved in defense now.
It's likely Charlie Strong or James Franklin might be booted at the end of the year and both got less than 4 years (and they're HCs, coordinators have even less of a leash). Most football programs in modern times give 2-3 years before starting to see results, not this 4 years we seem to be debating about.
Also hiring Whit was not because of performance, it was because Weaver's health was failing. That's not fair to put as a hire for the 4 year cycle.
The fact is whatever change Beamer has made has not worked. Shane Beamer is still in charge and probably will stay in charge as RB coach as long as Frank is there, and as long as Baby Beamer is in a coaching position here our running game will stay poor. Loeffler failed in Auburn and was immediately booted, and now he has had SO MUCH time with little results to show for it.
Also the starting point for the '4 year cycle' was September 2012, not 2013, for the whole staff. 4 years means 4 seasons, meaning from September 2012 all the way to December 2015, not December 2016 and most definitely not 2017.
Changes were made in 2013 but the obvious decline in recruiting talent and coaching started before that. 4 years is a much longer time in college football than it was in the early 2000s. Wait too long and the game will zoom past you, and it looks like it already has for Virginia Tech.
I can guarantee waiting till 2017 will push this program back another 3-6 years.
I think the benchmark depends on what the talent level is.. Obviously at Auburn there was plenty of talent, same at Florida and Michigan.. I read somewhere that Michigan is the 8th most talented team, they just haven't shown it the last couple of years. As far as Pitt, it may be a matter of offenses haven't figured out what he is doing, whereas we see quite often that offenses have figured out a few things that they can do against Fosters current schemes.
The talent level on offense was severely lacking when Lefty came in, we've seen an improvement in the talent level, but I'm not sure it's enough, in a perfect world we'd still have Brewer, and I think we'd have a little better idea of where we are... One discouraging fact is that the staff hasn't been able to get Lawson familiar enough with the offense to come in when needed. Lawson has been the number 2 QB for 3 weeks, this is a problem
A few things...
Strong and Franklin are at A+ football schools, especially Strong. I can tell you first-hand that the PSU fans are not as delusional about their rank in the world of CFB as they used to be. The Texas fans, I can't speak to. Texas is going through, right now, what Tennessee went through at the end of the Fulmer tenure. They're in a for a few rough years.
I don't agree that most coordinators have an immediate impact like you suggest. The best coordinators do that, like Malzahn at Auburn. Most, I'd argue, do not.
I don't understand why the four year cycle (which is my expectation alone, not any known standard) started in September 2012 instead of the end of that same season, January 2013. Logan was starting his second year in 2012, a year after we were pretty good. I don't think the beginning of that season was the time when it was known that we had to make changes. After one season of underperforming according to our standard, Frank made changes. We were 11-3 in 2011. No one was getting replaced after an 11-3 season in 2011, so the 2012 staff staying intact made sense
I'm in the same boat. Freshman year was 2011. I wasn't a Hokies fan growing up and college football was an after thought for me until I enrolled.
I don't think it's my place to call for Frank to be fired.
Hey key, that response wasn't directed specifically at you, but I started to go down that train of thought after reading your comment. I think there have been many more sentiments in the last few days that deserved it as a response instead of yours, but I just happened to be on this thread at the moment, and yours was the best response to my earlier comment. 'Legged your post.
Sorry but disagree. This is it for Frank. Perks like Bristol have zero bearing IMO - this is it. He's had time to right the ship - it failed. I love him but his time is up.
Bucket List? This is a business. Frank doesn't deserve to stay one more year just to play against Notre Dame and Tennessee.
I love the guy, but if he stays one more year we are done as a relevant football program. Recruits will bail, one more year of obscurity. Whit has to look at the bigger picture here.
So we are good with getting humiliated on NBC next year against a very good ND team just because of his bucket list? SMH
Yeah if we're going to let Beamer come back for 2 games then I give up.
Thankfully whit isn't that moronic and won't let that happen.
Where do we go from here-> nowhere , a loss to NC State Friday looks to be looming in front of what could be another scarce crowd.
I was full of optimism before the Piit game.
Now we have a short week against a solid offense in NC State (qb hitting close to 80% and running game averaging 5+ yds a carry). Then a tough one at Miami, then Duke. Ugh, some of these could go our way, but with the current play, I worry. I'm seeing maybe 2 more victories right now, which doesn't keep the bowl steak alive.
I'm at a loss too, as we have some significant talent. Sad times for sure.
I'll take NC State's offensive stats with a grain of salt. They beat 4 nobodies and lost to an average at best Louisville team.
And who have we beat? At this point don't look down your nose at any team. Every game is a potential battle.
I'm not saying we'll handle NC State easily. I'm saying their offensive stats are at least partially a function of the quality of their opponents.
CAN WE PLEASE STOP WITH THE BEAMER GETS TO CHOOSE and WE OWE BEAMER THE CHANCE TO STEP DOWN
It was cute and thoughtful after one bad year for a long time coach. But it's four years and there's been no change in attitude, play style, play calling, RESPONSIBILITY TAKING. It's time.
Bowden was 1 year removed from playing for an ACC championship When it was over. There wasn't a Power FSU Football before Bowden. Bowden in the VT scenario could still be there to this day.
Can you imagine the staying power if instead of 1 NC Game. It was 2 NC Championships and 13 or more ACC Championships?
FSU didn't want the program locked in the past and didn't want to go any further in the dump and moved on.
Look at at Kansas State and Bill Snyder. Following disappointing seasons 2004 and 2005, when Kansas State went 4–7 and 5–6, respectively, Bill Snyder retired from Kansas State with an overall record of 136–68–1. It had been 40 years since KState had won 7 games in a season when Snyder won 7 games with KState but it took only 2 years for Bill to know that he wasn't the best coach for K State at that time.
Can you imagine if he stayed on and just continued to struggle? What if to this day all the fans are happy K-State is just a 6 - 6 team. All the fans have memories how before Bill arrived K-State went 40 years with out 7 wins and now its no more than a few seasons and K-State is winning 7 games and going to a Bowl game.
We can respect the past and I appriciate it but we don;t have to live by it and VT will still have a football program.
Gonna go ahead and move up my Beamer Retirement Speech Prediction from my previous post of September 5th 2016 to November 16th 2015. Frank does deserve to have his last game at Lane be a sellout, Media spectacular. Short of an announcement before the UNC game there is no way that game is a non-noon non sell out crowd. Best case scenario 6 - 4 doesn't sellout Lane.
I Think you hint at something that needs to be said. There is life to VT football after Beamer. Michigan, Notre Dame, Bama, OSU, etc are all programs who have been up and down over the course of their history, but when previous legendary coaches left, the school moved on.
I think we don't think about this, as our history of being a program as we were is still very young. Those schools had winning traditions for 100s of years, where we are still in the 25+ year range.
VT football will evolve with a different coach and will carry many of the identities and traditions we have all created.
One man does not make a school, we all do.
Legs to you!!! 100's of years....ye olde Bama squad really got after em!
Ok 100s was more plural for the multiple schools.
Though Bama did get a NC in 1925, not exactly 100, but only 10 years short. Considering we didn't even show up to one till 1999, that's a hell of a head start.
Dude I totally get it, just trying to have some fun. I've been a VT for what seems like 100s of years....
#SamRogers4HC
Frank deserved "another year to get things together and go out on his own terms" after 2013. He didn't deserve it after 2014, but he got it anyway in large part thanks to the huge OSU win, which by all means has been proven by now to be a fluke. He sure as hell doesn't deserve it this year.
This is like the third straight year we've had this conversation. It can't keep going on. At some point you have to cut the cord, and that time is now. I'm not saying to get rid of him midseason but this "he deserves to see Bristol and ND" is complete nonsense.