Let's first get this out of the way that this is NOT an anti or shitcan Beamer thread. I myself have stated multiple times that I want him back for Bristol next season (provided he truly changes things). There are number of members on TKP that are in various managerial, supervisor and leadership positions (or have been) at there respective places of employment. But even if you're not; say you're the AD at Tech. After these two losses you decide to have a meeting with Beamer. What would you say to him? How would you communicate to Beamer in a method that would cause him to change his current course?
Earlier in his coaching tenure Beamer has been forced before to make coaching changes (I forgot the former AD name). How do you suppose that conversation went? Would this one be any similar?
WWYS To Beamer If You Were AD
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Hey Frank, It 's over
Yesterday we officially moved from just average to "bad"... Program is dying on the vine.....time for a change.....as much as I hate to say it....Beamer ball is dead......time for the change.....waiting at this point only makes it worse......need a new gun slinger in town...sorry Frank ...love ya, but its over.....
Well, we did block a field goal yesterday...
Well, we did block a field goal yesterday...
Agree with most of your statements, but Beamer Ball has surprisingly looked better than years past. Not sure if anyone else noticed, but I was at the game and saw Frank pull his guys over right before the blocked FG to give them the "block this kick" motion over and over again. At least he is still committed to that part of the game.
Thank you for being such a great representative for VT and helping lead our community through both its finest and darkest hours. You've positively impacted a lot of lives in SWVA, not to mention the great number of players who benefit by your example. Somehow, I've got to replace you when you retire, so let's talk about when that will be and how you might continue as an ambassador for VT.
We have done things your way for the last 4 yrs. , has not worked. We are moving in another direction.
Review previously set goals.
Evaluate what is working, what is not. Check metrics for what is not working.
Discover reasons why it is not work.
Identify immediate, mid term and long term steps.
Identify resources need to execute on the steps.
Make steps to create or acquire these resources.
Identify what is going right. Why is it going right.
Discover how to reinforce the things going right.
Identify resources to reinforce the things going right.
Execute on reinforcing success.
Set immediate goals based on realistic immediate changes.
Set timeframe to measure these goals.
Discuss repercussions of not meeting these goals.
Open lines of communication regarding information changes, new ideas and roadblocks, opportunities or successes.
Set next meeting date.
Thank you. I was hoping you (as well as some others) would weigh in on this.
But let's be clear on something else.
A little jumping up and down cursing a screaming and throwing sh1t is not necessarily a bad thing either. It just should never, ever be seen by anyone not directly involved in that show of passion and emotion and should never, ever not be accompanied by a discussion along the lines of that post.
And never, ever act on anything based on that display of emotion. Act using logical, well thought out plans and actions based on the possible.
Absolutely 100%.
I'm sorry, but these look to me like what a someone might have advised this program to do in 2005, and again in 2012. They should be well past that at this point.
I guess it's sufficient if your goal for the program is to be in the top half of the ACC Coastal. No doubt they can settle in with some nail-biters with ECU, East Carolina, and Wake Forest. Who knows, more than half of those might break your way. You're not going to beat Florida State, Clemson, Georgia Tech like that.
I think the goal should be a top 20 program, and I don't think that's an unreasonable goal. But I've seen some pretty unacceptable play in the last few years, and the coaches responding with "shit happens, but it might have broken our way..." And you're suggesting an iterative business improvement model. The program already did that. Why isn't it working? A lack of fire in the leadership. They're accepting failure as an option. The entire business model is "giving ourselves a probability of winning", which is different from "winning".
"Business as usual" isn't what got Beamer and the VT program to where they were in 2000, and it's not going to get them back there. This is a "step up or step off" situation.
I think the problem is that EVERY team in the NCAA is ALREADY doing some form of those steps. Those are an expectation, not a differentiator. You know who else is doing those steps? ECU. Pitt. Wake Forest.
But know this. "Pretty good teams" in the middle of the ACC don't rock Lane Stadium. They don't sell out bowl games. They play bowl games named after some kind of consumable good on the afternoon of December 26, and are happy to be one of the 80 teams out of 120 who went to a bowl, and pat themselves on the back for not being UVa.
Enough years of that, and you'll start losing to your in-state rival.
Enough years not doing it and you'll end up losing for a decade against your in-state rival.
Enough years doing it and identifying the necessary changes and you end up landing a guy on the moon, making more people happy and winning the NC.
This is a process. You constantly repeat it and refine it.
If you set the goal towards mediocrity, then so be it. If you set your goal at NC, then we still have 125 other teams to beat.
Set the goal to NC. Nobody said you'll get there because at the end of the day, it's still a competition with all those other teams.
Making changes any other way is just changes for the sake of changes. How will you know if a change is effective or, even if it is effective, that it actually gets you closer to your goal. You can't because except for a vague idea of what you want to do, you don't have anything measurable.
Advancing to the NC, with the budget we would have, will never happen without a clear set of individual small goals, the steps to meet those goals and someone that determines if they've been met and if a step was harmful, effective or effective but inefficient.
I'm hope it was done in 2005 and 2012. I hope it was done many, many times in all the years between then and now. I especially expect Whit has done it with each major coach and manager of facilities the first month after he got here.
It's how to get things done effectively.
At a certain point, you have to ask yourself if you've got the right leadership, with the right motivations.
Think of the Jerry Maguire coach, pointing to his heart and saying "if this is empty", and then pointing to his head and saying "this doesn't matter". Beamer loves the program, and he loves his staff. At a certain point, however, you have to wonder what the motivations are here. In a perfect world, he would leave a legacy, and hand-pick his successor to carry on the traditions. Our world, as perfect as it is, usually doesn't work that way.
I love Beamer, and what he has done for this program. We could overlook a loss to ECU, and even one to Wake Forest or Pitt if they were anamolies. It's not so easy to overlook those losses when they are occurring in back-to-back years.
What I describe does not leave out leadership as one of the possible areas to fix but, you need to do that carefully and with planning, not out of frustration and emotion.
That is rarely a short range improvement for mid-season football.
edited for spelling
I'm with you, I'm not sure what firing a coach mid season does to help that season.
I'm not suggesting firing him mid-season. I'm suggesting that Frank step down at the end of the season.
There is no mid-season fix for mediocrity. Management doublespeak isn't the reality or the solution.
Yes, I'm pissed. Everyone should be. This isn't a game or two. This was the whole of last season, and what I'm expecting to be the whole of this season.
WTF is going on with the offensive line? Searels stepped away for two games and it all fell apart. WTF is going on with the running game? It's supposed to be the core of the entire program. Where is it?
These aren't stepwise, incremental process improvement things. These are the fundamentals of of the program. I could understand if they weren't holding up against the best of the ACC, but they're not holding up against teams VT should be beating handily.
Did we really come all this way to be merely competitive with average programs?
Yes, it's not easy. There is a lot of parity among a lot of programs in NCAA football. VT has managed to climb to an upper tier. But if you don't fight to stay there, you won't.
NCAA football is a lot about branding. Beamer has managed to build one for VT. But you only keep that if you insist on adhering to some level of standard.
Sorry man, that's not management doublespeak.
That is identifying what needs fixing and working to fix it.
I don't do shot in the dark. Worked for too many managers that have.
Hiring another coach is might seem like a "shot in the dark", and there is always risk in change. It's what you do in college football (or anywhere else, for that matter), when iterative improvement under the current leadership/management begins to look like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Sometimes, it's the strategic vision that's lacking. Sometimes it's the communication. Sometimes it's the inspiration. Sometimes it's something else that can't be fixed under that management. It's almost always covered by losing consistently by inches and things you just can't control. It often seems that if you could fix just one more thing...
Beamer has this year, and maybe one more if he can really turn things around this season. Replacing him is what's going to happen in the near future. It's what happens, even to the best coaches, when they reach the end of their coaching tenure. I'm hoping Beamer makes the decision before Whit's hand is forced.
Who knows, maybe Brewer will come back quickly and help VT win. That would be great for all involved. I would LOVE for Beamer to go out on a high note with another winning season or two, and maybe another ACC Championship. Beamer is STILL the winningest active division I coach. I'm happy for him to stick around if he can once again right the ship. See how quickly I can jump back on the hype train?
I have to admit, at this point I'll be surprised if that happens. We as fans, and Whit as AD, simply can't accept losing to ECU, Wake Forest, and Pitt. Losing to those teams is not business as usual, and it's a trend we can't abide. The team is Jeckyll and Hyde out there, and that's not good.
Hiring a new coach doesn't have to be a shot in the dark and yes, there is risk in any change so, take steps to minimize the risk and find ways to measure if the change was effective or poor.
It can be the next step in a logical progression.
If the guy you have has good ideas and looks like he can make sufficient steps to satisfy, then its often better to keep or augment, as opposed to replace.
It all depends on how you go about doing it, timing it and to make sure the replacement satisfies more of the requirements or at least the same requirements to a greater degree.
Also, don't forget your long term goals while satisfying your short term goals.
You say some interesting things, but having this discussion is very difficult because:
1. We do not know Whit's strategic vision for the football program. We do not know if his ultimate goal is to win the NC. (this in of itself makes fan board discussions moot, because as well all know, the FAN'S ultimate goal is to win the NC and the FAN becomes very frustrated when progress is not made toward that goal)
2. We do not know what, if any, goals and timetable he has set for Frank to achieve...whatever goals he has set for the program.
3. We know that Frank's goal is to win the ACC, that our defense's goal is to hold the opposition to 15 points or less, and that our offense's goal is to score more than the opposition. Beyond that we know little of Frank's goals or how he measures success against them.
4. We have absolutely no idea what Whit's goals are for football recruiting, nor how he measures success. We have no idea what Frank's goals are in recruiting, nor how he measures success. In his latest book he both touts the importance of an athlete of Michael Vick's caliber to the program, and dismisses 'recruiting stars' out of hand. So it seems he resists external measures of success, or perhaps measuring success against the success of our competitors. If he has goals they are internal, and probably related to targets evaluated vs targets offered vs targets acquired.
This is a good example of how applying your methods would be hard for Frank. When 'we did what we set out to do' doesn't result in a goal achieved, the logical thing to do is loop back to the beginning and challenge your initial assumptions. Frank has never been one to question his own philosophy. If we were getting the majority of the recruits we really wanted - based on Frank's way evaluating talent - and it didn't result in wins, his natural tendency would be to 'work harder,' 'do better,' whatever it took to improve the situation. It wouldn't occur to him to 'do different.' Especially when doing things 'the Beamer way' resulted in a trip to the NC, a big string of bowl bids and 10 win seasons, and a prosperous football program.
While we don't know a lot about program goals and metrics, we DO know a lot about Frank's philosophy and process. We know his philosophy is rooted in the philosophies of those who mentored him - Claiborne, Ross. We know he is deeply change averse, and does not make decisions analytically. At all. We know he is the consummate relational decision maker - "the best person to do the job is someone I've coached with, or someone I've coached."
What we as fans ask ourselves now is (in your phrasing): "Does Frank have good ideas and does it look like he can make sufficient steps to satisfy? " And we don't start from square one on this - we look to the past, how he has dealt with this before, and how well his actions have worked.
So ultimately we are asking: does he have the right philosophy for the program today, given the way the college football universe has evolved over the last 20 odd years. Can he adapt to the modern game and modern recruiting world. Can he take back the state and make VT the prime destination for more of the top VA recruits.
Blockbuster Video might have done everything you have described but still been obliterated by Netflix and RedBox, simply because they were too internally focused to respond to the threat and unwilling to make the needed transformational changes. And internal focus is a hallmark of our football program.
You are correct in all cases.
It does not mean I would adjust the methodology, as I pointed out before, my method does not exclude a change in leadership.
Note that I still hold that we did change the AD, which is one part of the leadership.
I hope Whit is evaluating this the same way you describe.
If it is the leadership that cannot address these items; the answer is clear.
What if say you run a business of an up and coming thing, Like technology 20 years ago or craft beer in the last 5 years. And you were right in there as the biggest fastest growing of them (VT growth to NC game and growth to ACC champions). You were one of the companies everyone talked about (Beamerball/Foster Defense). But then everyone else changed and adapted to new ideas and you weren't being talked about except as a has been.
Steve Jobs was fired from apple because it didnt evolve in personal computing. Or what if you are a Craft beer brewer, it's a great time to be one if you keep up. The industry is growing annually at 22% over 5 years, (ACC NC Team and improved recruiting by ACC Teams) but you are only growing at 3% (Tech's still where it was with a few better players). What do you tell your investors (Fans) when they ask about your 5 year performance. Your sticking to your personal theory on beer (Beamerball, but you've changed your offensive coordinator of beer sales) but your change has cost you a huge rise to your investors (ACC/Non SEC playing in Primetime Saturday). YOu've had the chance for change and meetings. We are all past that. If it takes you more than 4 years to realize more change is necessary then this Job isn't for you.
Look at the stock of Zynga Inc NASDAQ: ZNGA $2.36 On a five year chart shows what Tech would even look like I bet. But look at that share price two dollars and 36 cents. There is no confidence in the investors. It's a has been in a booming industry to a has been
Then the leadership have not done a good job of identifying goals and how to get there or do not have the resources to implement the things that need done.
Examine the changes that Whit has made and you can identify what steps they feel they need to take and can make assumptions about what is lacking either in resources, or steps.
Look at whom Babcock has hired and see the acquisition and implementation of resources. Fan experience, recruit experience, QA assistance for the coaches so they have more time with more productive tasks rather than hour by hour grind that can and should be done more resource efficiently and highest caliber BB coach, the addition of Hokie village, dedicated to less nooners, and some other things targeted at small Hokies.
These are targeted and, at my poor eyeball view, nicely efficient and effective changes. This tells me, Whit is going through these steps.
So, they are not the same changes made in previous years. Frank is not the CEO. Whit is acting as the CEO and reports to Sands.
Whit is now driving this process instead of the previous AD. We noticed the changes. I can tell you what process they used to do this.
It wasn't emotion. It was smart and logical and implemented the highest impact at lowest cost first.
You wanna run a business, watch what Whit does. He knows what he is doing and it's a very teachable moment.
edited because the first time it looked as if I was identifying the poster as the problem, lol. Coulda started a range war there.
In this Model, Frank is the CEO. None of the Football issues has anything else to do with VT Athletics. This entire thread and discussion on Frank's Future has him as the CEO. He is in charge of the Football program. He got all the credit for upseting OSU in front of 107,000 people, I don't think anyone talked to Whit about that postgame. Frank could have asked for any of the new coaches in years back. In 2007 Frank could have asked about an indoor practice facility, or QA asst, or other coaches. In fact Whit came in and told Frank about all the changes that could be made.
When FSU/Bama/OSU won the National championship I didnt see the AD partaking in the Award ceremony. Yea he is down there. But the president of the NCAA presents the Championship trophy to the Head coach and the players
The coaching staff has asked for an indoor facility for a long time.
Frank is not the guy setting goals, resources, etc.
It's Whit acting as the CEO, working with Frank to do this work. That is fundamental to understanding how this works.
Frank doesn't hire and fire himself and Whit is not as emotionally tied to Frank as anyone that was there last year.
Frank then works with his OC and DC and assistant coaches, etc.
In terms of football, I see Beamer more as the CEO. He is responsible for football personnel, sets the goals of the football program, chooses the players, and is responsible for the football program.
Whit's authority is more like that of a board of directors. He has budget authority, and the ultimate approval of staffing and personnel. He has the authority to hire/fire the coach, but he's not running the football program.
Beamer has front-line responsibility for football.
Whatever you decide to call these guys is fine as long as you recognize that the guy Frank Reports to and delivers his goals and status and gets permission to do things with, is Whit.
It's a team effort, Frank is no man on an island. At least he better not be.
But I don't see that with Whit. In reviewing what's going on, I see Whit doing exactly what I described.
(Chuckle)
I'd call them the athletic director and the head football coach.
The delineation between their responsibilities is pretty clear.
Thanks for agreeing the Whit's the boss and he's the one that sets the agenda.
I know, pretty funny things people don't consider.
That's crazy
This is obviously Whit celebrating his Football team's Wake Forest game
Here is Weaver Celebrating his teams's Great season ending Orange Bowl win
Of course a sad one as Jim Weaver meets with Bowden after a blown 4th quarter in the National championship
But of course, celebrating his best win is Whit in a huge upset over OSU at OSU
Nice photographs. I think I've seen them before.
I think the original question is, What Would you Say to Beamer if You were AD.
This implies an understanding that the AD oversees Football Operations or at least, the Football Head Coach.
A number of pictures showing Frank as the Face of the football team on the field, does nothing to address this basic assumption, which is outside the scope of this thread. I also would not dispute that point.
My stance is discussing what I would do if i oversaw Frank.
And another extremely important point to not overlook.
We did make a leadership change. A very important one to this team.
The guy driving all this, Whit Babcock, is now the AD. It hadn't really occurred to me until this morning that this was being overlooked.
So no, its not being done the same as in 2005 and 2012 and any other year.
It's being done under a different CEO type.
I think of Whit more as the board of directors, and Beamer as the CEO of football.
Beamer is the one running the football program.
Also, I forgot something very important.
Identify previous steps no longer deemed important.
Eliminate these steps, the plans associated with them and recover the resources associated with these unimportant/unecessary plans.
I would love to work for you.
Send me a PM.
Ever wanted to work at a startup brewery/ tasting room? I see your career field.
How does a person send a pm on this board? Lol. I'd totally work at a brewery part time, but Roanoke is a ways from Meadows of Dan, VA.
Hey Egbert, can I grab your email (through joe, if necessary)?
Yes, Joe,
Can you let SCVTfClemson, HOaT and Whitman have my email address?
Guys, if you send Joe and email requesting, he generally will allow it.
If you send me something, make sure you put TKP in the subject line so it gets routed to somewhere other than my junk drawer.
Thanks, Egbert. I'll ask joe immediately and will be in touch this week.
I appreciate man, and maybe later in life I'll hit you up. Right now though, I can't leave my field...Let me know if you want opinions/tasting done on some weekends though, I'll drive to Roanoke for quality brew.
I suppose I can get you directions to some places with Quality brew....
Kidding
Yes, tasting boards as part of QA/QC will be a big part.
Then feel free to yell at me, .
Got it, you can take the address out of the post to protect from spammer.
I swear to God, if TKP starts launching careers, it will hit a whole new level of sheer fucking badassery.
Does said Brewery have a name? Parkway is a 55 second walk from my house and they currently have me by the balls with their Ravens Roost Baltic Porter. The fact that I can stagger home in under 3 minutes is a plus as well.
Walking distance is a fine quality in a brew.
Not yet. It doesn't have a building yet.
We are at that stage.
Real estate engagement and banking engagement.
We have a tentative name and such but my marketing team and partners don't want anything out until we get legal approvals.
Somebody is in charge and totally worthy of it.
Damn it. Just realized I said the same thing as you
Very well said, and I think it should basically be just this. Whit has shown us over and over that he is an analytical guy. He wants results, and he wants to figure out logically what needs to be done. It really boils down to: (1) figure out what is needed for success, (2) how much of that falls on Frank and staff, and (3) how Whit can aid in the process.
Somebody is a supervisor/leader
Wasn't all of this already done.
Done in Mid 2012 Football Season
Review previously set goals.
Evaluate what is working, what is not. Check metrics for what is not working.
Discover reasons why it is not work.
Identify immediate, mid term and long term steps.
Done Post 2012 Season
Identify resources need to execute on the steps.
Make steps to create or acquire these resources.
Preseason 2013
Identify what is going right. Why is it going right.
Discover how to reinforce the things going right.
Identify resources to reinforce the things going right.
Set immediate goals based on realistic immediate changes.
Date Set - TBD
Set timeframe to measure these goals.
Discuss repercussions of not meeting these goals
Been there Done that. Have the 17-14 record to review. We did that, we reset expectation, we rebuilt the managment team and reviewed the resources to make it happen. It's not happened yet and it won't happen till the TBD issues are actually dealt with.
Only if the metrics show the weak spots are the management team.
I see changes, the only way to see if the changes are effective is trial and error. Why did they fail?
If it's management, then yes.
So, yes, continual review and evaluation. Every, single time period as defined.
I'd like to be a fly on the wall, in this case.
O FFS. It's now 4 years and there's been no change
You're in management it appears. Which of your underlings can continue to promise to be the best, and be your go to person but only preform average each year. How can you sit down with them each quarter review meeting, and say as my #2 I expect you to be the Best. Last quarter was off but lets work to get back. Everybody has a down term, everybody works to get back up or they fall down to the next level.
How do you count on your #2, above average employee, everyday when he's consistently meeting just average expectation. You don't. You coach him a term and if its not there anymore there's someone else thats got that #2 spot.
also
That time period has yet to be defined
Pretty sure that's what he's saying. He's just saying you dont do it cause your emotionally involved, but because the objective analysis bears out the failure.
I meet much more frequently than once a quarter. I may review medium range and long range goals quarterly.
I meet with my boss weekly and quarterly and I review his performance at each of those.
He doesn't realize it though.
I meet weekly, at the least, with the people that work for me, depending on the business and sometimes daily.
There are many reasons for mediocre performance sometimes the employee is setup for failure, sometimes not.
You have to figure out why and correct that.
Let's take a look at the QB fro UVA that lost his place on the 1st squad at UVA and decided to transfer to UGA. So far, UGA he is succeeding.
The problem he had at UVA was he was not setup to succeed.
In other words, they lost a good resource and made a major change and it had no real impact. They made a change to what was effectively a manager/performer (which is what a QB is).
They needed to make a change in his resources to have a positive impact. At least on the metric we are measuring.
And yes, one of the resources could be the head coach. But I suspect there are others as well, perhaps OL, perhaps the QB coach, perhaps the brand of gloves he uses. Could be all of these and more.
Let's pose a hypothetical. Let's say Frank met with Whit when he was hired and accurately identified the state of the program and stated that it would take until 2026 to fix, and presented a plan and an expected course of improvement over the years.
Let's go further to suggest that this hypothetical was never made public.
How would we feel about it if we knew about it?
EDIT: Shoot, I shot my question in the foot with a typo. I DEFINITELY meant: Frank tells Whit something like, "Hey, Whit, it looks bad now, and it will take me until 2016 to fix."
2016. Season of 2016. Next year. Sorry.
I hope you meant 2016, because if you meant 2026 and Whit didn't fire him on the spot, I would have been furious.
It's a hypothetical drawn using what is, at glance, an unreasonable amount of time.
The point being that, this is what was identified using logical tools and planning.
He's looking for a response to the logically derived long timeline.
My response would be that I'd need to see why it's so long.
I'd think these guys would communicate that somehow.
I'm still not following the hypothetical. Maybe I'm being dense.Thanks, your edit makes sense to me, and I agree.Are you saying he's criticizing your approach because it didn't set a timeline? I can understand that, but since a wholesale turnover of a roster in college football is at most 5 years, his post just didn't make sense because the timeline was outlandishly unreasonable.
He was looking to just get a response.
I agree it's pretty unreasonable timeline.
My response is that it's too long and what can be done to shorten it?
Yeah, I agree, especially if part of what you're saying is VT shouldn't rush a decision based on the emotions of this past week.
Everyone's ticked off, probably not the best time to have a meeting with the AD. Coaches will be defensive, AD will be irritated. Maybe set something up for Saturday instead.
EVERYONE OUT!!
Coaches have to want to be winning it all. I don't think Baylor, Mich St, Ole Miss, Clemson, or Stanford ADs would have taken the same offer either.
There's no way someone that brings in Buzz is okay with a 14 year makeover. Let's be honest. That meeting happened and in it Beamer says we are a great team, and I see us back in the ACC championship in the next 2 years and then Whit asks about the national presence and Beamer says he see's winning the ACC as a great thing and if that brings VT further so be it. Whit and Frank agree to the 2 year extension because Frank is commited to winning in the ACC and Whit thinks that may have a good year OOC.
As for rebuilding, you get 3 years plus 1. At the end of year 3 you should be the Team everyone is talking about. Either because of that year or because year 4 is super hyped as The Year, OSU 2014.
Lol, that typo makes a world of difference
It it would take until 2016 to fix, I'd want to know why. That sounds like an entire roster turnover.
An entire offensive roster, as well as the training and development of those new players, yup.
I almost went berserk when I read 2026 haha. Thanks for the fix there
That sounds like the soul sucking rhetoric put out by corporate America HR. Its not wrong, I just work in corporate America...
I hear ya but, It's not corporate America, it's my small businesses.
It's how you get things done, rather than how you work hard and not know if you are doing any good.
Combine a guy that thrives on and made a living troubleshooting multi-million dollar failures with a project manager and technician and make him put his own dollar at risk and that's what you get.
Don't waste time, don't waste energy, figure out what needs accomplished and what gets you there. Anything else is wasteful. Wasteful is bad and life is too short to do useless things.
More resources to help people around you and do good things. More time for fun. If you are not having fun, you are doing it wrong.
That should sound a little less corporate.
I FINALLY FOUND OUR GOALS I'M SO EXCITED
And of all places they are in the Players Locker Room. I wonder if we need to renovate Merryman Center so they can be in the Coaches Office so the Coaches know the Goals?
The only change that will work is Beamer stepping down. Anything else is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
If Beamer is thinking of doing anything drastic like changing any staff then it won't work. What staff could Beamer hire when he is basically a goner?
Frank, who would you have take your place next year? I promise that person will get a fair consideration, but we need to move forward after this season.
The problem for Whit is there is really no quick fix. You can't just say fire a coach to two and you'll get another year (or two). If you're going to stick with Beamer for 2016, you can only work within the system you currently have. No coach worth having is going to say, "sure" I'll come for a year and then be job hunting again (definitely not at a coordinator level).
Likewise, you can't say "next year will be your last". Recruits will shy away as they will be committing to an unknown future coach. Basically causing a two-year recruiting drop.
I think you just have to work with Frank, and as Eg said above, see what resources he needs. Most importantly, work with him. Frank is a legend, but he needs coaching and guidance on how to handle the media and such. Those comments on fines (but Beamer's staff), "preseason", etc. show a disconnect and hurt the perception of the program even more. Afterall, everyone loses. It's how you handle it and how quickly you get back up that matters.
Even the best coach periodically needs another coach, to coach him.
We like Whit because, it appears to me, he followed something akin to the steps I outlined above, identified strong points, eek points and opportunities, the resources we needed to act on these and set about making it happen.
It would surprise the heck out of me if Whit did not set that up with all the major sports coaches already and has not already met with Each of them to go over everything with their program.
I suspect, early this week, Whit will have another meeting with Frank and other identified stakeholders, as well as a few people at the lower execution levels to go over what is happening.
Anything else is uninformed knee jerk emotional or political posturing.
Making changes that way, is as likely to hurt as much as help and make it impossible to identify the most effective and most detrimental changes.
We currently have a recruiting class ranked in the 40s for the 2016 fall season (which is just about the lowest ranked class Tech has gotten since the recruiting services starting grading players). If Frank stays on through Bristol and next year, there is no reason to expect any uptick in recruiting and we will again have a subpar class ranked in the 40s. We have all seen how two bad recruiting classes (2010-2011) will set your program back for years. Keeping Frank until 2017, and allowing the recruiting to continue to trend in a negative direction, will only set your new head coach up for failure as they inherit two bad classes. Just my two cents.
I don't think Frank is at a place in his life where he would appreciate too much "leadership speak" from a younger Whit, so i think being firm but open is the right approach:
Frank, my responsibility is to this Department and the University. You have 7 games to show me that i won't be harming the short term future of this athletics program by having you on the sidelines in 2016. That said, I am here to help you do just that, so let's work together to turn this thing around for both of us.
Then let Frank lay out his plans and identify if and how the department can help him.
I definitely like your approach.
I don't see the point of it.
I think you can ask Frank what his plan is, but Whit doesn't have to promise anything.
Beamer is making a big enough salary to play with the big boys. The football team is his responsibility.
I think he can ask Beamer what his plans for the transition are, without promising him anything. You just know that Beamer wants to negotiate to keep his current staff in place. I don't see making any deals like that.
I think this is the only conversation that can occur before the end of the season.
I cherry picked this to say that if Beamer has any problem with accepting leadership from Whit, he should be in touch with Bobby Bowden, Bill Snyder, and Lloyd Carr. Maybe Chris Ault or Steve Spurrier. There are few that can speak to Beamer about his scenario through their experiences. I think Beamer should start his own discussions with these guys, if there isn't a dialog already open.
Beamer HAD this conversation. Four years ago.
This isn't "pep talk" territory.
Sure, there are some changes that can be made, but it's time.
I might do something like this:
1. Get all of the coaches in a meeting and let them vent out their frustrations and concerns.
2. Next, meet with the coaches privately to hear their individual concerns.
3. Then, meet with Frank and say something like:
Frank, I think we can all agree that things are not working well right now. We will forever appreciate everything you have done for the university and still want you to right the ship here.
What do you think are the issues that are causing the team to be in the position they are in now?
What are you doing to correct those issues and make sure that they never happen again?
What can the athletic department do to assist you?
After speaking with him, if Coach Beamer answers the questions using his "coach speak" and does not appear to be on the same page as his assistants (which to me, would be a sign of dysfunction), then I would start researching other coaches to develop a shortlist, one that I would act on immediately if the team finishes 6-6 or worse.
Then again, I've never been a manager in my life, so maybe what I would do isn't the best thing.
Frank, the reason that I wanted to talk to you today is because our football program is underperforming where we both expected it to be (this assumes previously-defined expectations that I am sure have been discussed). We both know that this year was supposed to bring the payoff of the staff turnover from 2013, but the results on the field show a real gap between where things are and where they need to be. Also, donor support and recruiting are the lifeblood of continued success of this program and those are also both not where they need to be right now.
I know you said after the game yesterday that you would make changes. If there are ways I can help you, I am ready and willing to do just that. If there are coaches that you think are underperforming, let's talk about that too.
As of right now, here is what I think this group is capable of and what I want to see over the rest of the season. Improvement from week-to-week. Looking competent on both sides of the ball. Competing for the Coastal until the end of November. Do you think these are reasonable goals?
Frank, I want you to coach like your job and your staff's jobs depend on it. I can't promise you anything beyond this season.
....I would schedule a follow-up and keep open dialogue as the season progresses. This would be a terrible conversation to have to have, but if it hasn't been said already to Frank, he needs and deserves to know, face-to-face, man-to-man, that there is a chance he is not coming back for 2016. Frank is a legend and a hell of a man and deserves the chance to soak that in and decide what he wants to do with it.
I hope everything in your post is ALREADY understood by everyone involved.
When your goal is "looking competent", you have an issue that can't be fixed.
What are you measuring? How can you half measure if you don't know what you need to correct and what you are actually impacting? You might be half measuring when you think you are full measuring, if you have no intermediate, immediate or long term goal.
I understand the need for an emotional release but to expect something positive from that statement is not logical.
It's a "Breaking Bad" reference, and it doesn't mean measuring the success of the team. It means don't take a half-assed step, when decisive action is required.
As in, it's time for a head coaching change. Not only is it logical, it's the ONLY logical thing to do.
The only conversation you need with Frank is "Play this season as if it's your last."
What are you going to say to Beamer that he isn't already aware of?
This isn't "First time manager, 101". Beamer makes $2.4 million a year, and has been a head coach since 1981.
I think Beamer should go out on his own terms, but these ARE his own terms.
I understand the Breaking Bad reference but, is firing Frank the right thing. Do more than just fire Frank? Less?
What do you expect that to do and how do you know it's been effective?
I understand the desire to burn the ship to the keep and start over but, is firing Frank really burning the bad parts? All the bad parts?
I have not seen an analysis on that yet.
Maybe we need to do more than fire Frank, maybe less.
Do more than Firing Frank? Like just shut it down. How do you do more than changing the Head person.
Well we changed everything else. Top football teams have good coaches that bring in Good players that get good coaching.
Frank hasn't coached a good game in years and hasn't recruited a top player outside of VA in years.
We can't even pay top staff members to stay anymore or even pay them to come here. Look at how other teams rebuild a staff and look how VT has rebuilt a staff. Bless your heart Zohn but let's be honest about why you are at VT.
No, not shut it down, if your goal is to improve the football team then closing it would not meet that goal.
There's plenty that could be done more than firing the HC.
Without being a jerk, let's take a for instance.
Let's say a metric is to improving marketing in the regional market is an important goal, with the objective above that is to increase recruiting in Tennessee. (yes, I know it may be completely made up).
Will firing Frank improve, impede or have no impact on this goal. Would it improve the measurement of this metric by moving the date of this forward to the left or right? Is there some other means to improve this goal in either time, cost or effectiveness? If so, then we need to do more than firing Frank. We have to do it at time, manner or in conjunction with something else.
Also, note that we have made changes, like changing out the OC and the OL coach twice.
Were they effective changes? Do they need to be done again?
Note that changes to the offense DO impact the defense.
Let me point to DL guys changing to OL to make up for shortfalls there.
Will firing Frank impact OL recruiting or hinder it?
VT has been dealt some bad cards this year, in the case of Brewer's and Fuller's injuries. But it's more than just that. There is a lack of discipline and focus, and that is unacceptable. Beamer's comments last week about "pre-season" shows that the head coach isn't taking his job seriously.
So if you ALSO want some immediate recommendations, I'd say eliminate the penalties. Fix whatever is wrong with the offensive line that's getting Motley killed. And get Lawson ready with some abbreviated playbook, because I'm sure he's capable of at least four plays per week. I find it difficult to understand why there is no running game at all. Remind the defense that they need to make their tackles.
Some of these things were identified LAST YEAR. This is a short week, but we need to see progress in all of these areas.
Speaking of Beamer's comments last week, and looking at the stark contrast with his comments this week, does anyone think it's possible that someone in the athletic department might have already had a talk with Beamer about addressing the fans and media a bit better? I mean, I've rarely if ever seen Beamer as salty and short in his postgame presser as yesterday. Just seemed like night and day from only a week ago. There was quite a bit of uproar over the "exhibition games" comments, so I'm just wondering if a dialogue hasn't already been started behind the scenes. If he truly was that upset with yesterday's performance, I'm just wondering why wait until now to show some grit? Miami and Wake were pretty inexcusable last year.
I suspect that was a line item on one of the short term goals that only required a 5-15 minute coaching session as a resource. Pretty low cost, high return.
Sorry for the subtitles
Pulp Fiction
Simply, "Frank, the program has deteriorated. It's time for a change. The change will be announced immediately following the regular season. Hopefully, we can set aside time to talk each week about the transition. By the way, fire Stiney immediately. I'd like to get our fans back in the stadium."
While I agree Stiney should never again have the roll of coordinator, he has proven to be a competent recruiter and an excellent TE coach.
"Here's a 10 year extension"
To the OP--
Why would you want Beamer back next year? He deserves respect obviously, but he needs to go after this year. I see no logical reason to keep him. His record on the field shows that the program is declining. Why wait? Recruiting is miserable this year. It will be even worse next year if he is here. Why let him come back to coach in Bristol? So he can turn things around? Please....he has had years to do that. Even if he does have a "decent" year in 2016 what will that prove? Recruiting will be awful.. We won't recover from two consecutive years of getting no talent. Please Frank - do the right thing and retire.
On the topic of recruiting, apparently we somehow just snagged this guy: http://247sports.com/Player/Khalil-Ladler-28486. That offer list is not too shabby.
Yeah, mentioned in the PItt game recruits post. 4* DB seeing our weak secondary with Fuller hurt and Fayscon slow, both elite and probably gone this season or next...he sees early playing time.
Fair question. I'll be honest. I haven't had the leadership experience that a lot of folks on here have had, and I wanted to know their thoughts/reactions/approaches to how they would handle it instead of just your basic, generic, ordinary "yer fired" reaction.
As to your original question, I've flipped back and forth between "toss out Frank" and "keep him" and a number of alcoholic consumptions in between. I've concluded that I know I have absolutely zero control over what WILL happen. But I guess a huge part of me wants to and still believes he has the capability of turning it around.
For me, personally, this was displayed after that disaster of a 2003 season. 1999 and 2000 were phenomenal seasons (MV7 years). 2001-2003 were in my eyes massive disappointments (2002 minor exception). The start of 2004, like a ton of the fan base, I was worried would be a disaster like '03 because we were facing off against USCw. A lot of folks were already writing them off but I decided, hey as long as they put up a great fight, play smashmouth football, play like they've got nothing to lose, I think they'll be alright. Season went better than expected. That was an instance Beamer helped turn it around. I think he can do it this season. I think he can do it one more.
see..I think part of the problem is that Beamer also thinks he can do it one more time. He's been thinking that he can do it 'one more time' for the last 4 years. At what point do you draw the line? How long do we wait for Beamer to turn it around 'one more time' before we realize it's just not going to happen? Beamer is a legendary coach and should be a consensus Hall of Fame inductee but he's lost his fire.
He's still competitive enough to believe he can do it but I just don't think he's the man he was 5 or 10 years ago. He's not the same coach that he was when he earned his status in the ranks of great coaches. He has continually said that he would not continue coaching at VT as long as he's not a benefit to the program. He's too competitive and stubborn to see that he's reached that state (maybe even surpassed it by a year or two). I'm sad for Beamer. I wanted to see him go out on top just as much as anybody else. But just like any truly competitive spirit, Beamer has tried to fight on beyond his capabilities.
That much should at least be admired and respected. The time has come for him to step down. I would love for him to turn this season around and win out to get this team to Charlotte. I just don't see it happening. Beamer has more than served his purpose at VT. He did what nobody believed he could do. I think it's time for us to Celebrate Beamer and move on to the next guy. Beamer will always be a legend in Blacksburg, and deservedly so, but I hate that it's probably going to have to end the same way it did for Bowden. It's ugly and unfair, but that's what happens to guys who are too competitive for their own good.
If it is indeed time for him to go, then in the end, it is time for him to go. I just fear for the subsequent seasons after that. So many questions. How long will it take to get back to 10+ W and ACCCG seasons at the very least for starters?
oh it will take some time. That is my fear as well. But if Beamer isn't what he used to be, he's not the guy we need to go with to turn things around. He can't coach forever. We need to change gears and get somebody fresh in here but it's not going to magically fix our woes over night. This team needs a 3-5 year rebuild. The rest of this decade is going to be ugly unless Whit knocks another one out of the ball park. I have my doubts that we'll get a home-run hire who can get us back to 10+ wins and conference title appearances before 2020
Bowden was 1 year removed from playing for an ACC championship When it was over. There wasn't a Power FSU Football before Bowden. FSU was 150 - 130 before Bowden. VT Before Beamer 481 - 339
Bowden in the VT scenario could still be there to this day.
Can you imagine the staying power if instead of 1 NC Game. It was 2 NC Championships and 13 or more ACC Championships?
FSU didn't want the program locked in the past and didn't want to go any further in the dump and moved on.
Look at at Kansas State and Bill Snyder. Following disappointing seasons 2004 and 2005, when Kansas State went 4–7 and 5–6, respectively, Bill Snyder retired from Kansas State with an overall record of 136–68–1. It had been 40 years since KState had won 7 games in a season when Snyder won 7 games with KState but it took only 2 years for Bill to know that he wasn't the best coach for K State at that time.
Can you imagine if he stayed on and just continued to struggle? What if to this day all the fans are happy K-State is just a 6 - 6 team. All the fans have memories how before Bill arrived K-State went 40 years with out 7 wins and now its no more than a few seasons and K-State is winning 7 games and going to a Bowl game.
I would say frank, let me be frank, i think your gonna have plenty of time to enjoy a nice cold refreshment with shane at stop in next summer, we need to go in another direction.
And the hot dogs.
Welcome to Dumpsville. Population you.
P.S. I'm gay
Perfect.
is this a movie quote? this must be a movie quote
Simpsons
Hey Frank, we had to let some people go this week so I am going to need you to come in on Saturday and Sunday...
I would ask frank to step down, in season, promote Bud Foster to interim HC. Remove SL as play caller and give those duties back to stinespring and give stacy searrels control of offensive personnel substitutions (specifically RBs as I think he is the running game coordinator).
I like all of those. But I would just settle for the first one at this point.
I have not given up on this year yet.
My goal would be to win as many of the remaining games as possible and get a good bowl game.
I can't see how firing Frank right now would move towards that goal. That looks more like a long term step than an immediate one. It would disrupt the staff too much mid season and I think it a tad reactionary. If you move Bud to HC, who is DC?
I don't think Stinespring as signally caller is the correct choice but, selecting a different signal caller may be a good consideration. It was abysmal with the exception of red-zone. But, you gotta get to the red zone.
how much actual coaching do you really think frank does right now? Team could get a jolt from a change or continue on with our lackluster play for another 8 games.
I wouldn't fire Frank mid-season.
I think it's more like an "encourage him to realize that the end of the season is the right time" if things don't drastically turn around now.
Beamer has earned the right to get a shot at making the right decision himself.
Make Stiney playcaller again? I seem to recall that his last round of it was not exactly an overwhelming success.
To me, all of this is moot. The real question is are the major donors still in Frank's court or are they beginning to jump off the wagon? it's big donor money that will cause a change, not any plan or previous discussions between Beamer and Babcock. I suspect, judging from the new indoor practice facility, is that the money hasn't been affected by the poor on field performance that last 4 years.
People can still give money and want change. If you want everyone to stop donating till change occurs you will not like the results. Low paid new HC, low paid assistants, no way to pay increased COA, no new staff hires. All these things take money, something few VT fans actually give already.
Looks like our biggest donor has walked away. There were 17,113 unsold ticket to the Pitt game. Just in ticket sales that lost Tech $1,026,780
Since the end of the sellout streak and the beginning of Poor play VT has now lost $6.4 Million in unsold tickets. That doesn't include Hokie Club memberships or concession stand sells.
Also since it is named or refereed to as the Beamer Barn and not someone's name shows not one person stepped up as a major donor. Perhaps there is a better way to sum up this project. The facility was built by Hokies, for Hokies and paid for by Hokies Seems like 10,000 Hokies put in ~$2,000 each to back it while a few thousand more put in few hundred each
Where did you see the unsold ticket numbers?
Hokiesports includes attendance in there boxscore which ESPN has decided not to include any longer. http://www.hokiesports.com/football/stats/showstats.html?17447 . VT counts attendance as tickets purchased up until the end of the game not fans in the stadium.
Of course the loss of the $1 million assumes Tech sold all 49,000 tickets for retail value at $60. NCAA Regulations allow teams to bulk sale tickets for up 67% of retail value so the 1 million maybe even worse
I'm not sure that's true, season tickets and mini plans sold out. Tech just a few weeks ago were saying Pitt had returned tickets and those were for sale. Since Pitt only gets about 5,000 tickets where did the 10,000 other tickets suddenly come from?
I know Bitter once did a thing on Attendance and VT's Policy is tickets sold. If the VT Official numbers are wrong there's not much I can do
Frank is not getting fired mid-season. Unless he's done something egregiously illegal.