All of the talk so far has been about the next HC and that person bringing an offense with them, but what about OC candidates if Bud Foster gets the nod? I don't know anything about potential candidates but would love to hear from anyone about OCs Foster might target.
Apologies if there's already a thread on this, but I couldn't find one by searching.
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I think subconsciously everyone knows that Bud isn't going to be hired as the next Head Hokie so there has been very little effort put into searching for the next great OC under him. That's my guess...anyway
Not so fast my friend. Spoke with Whit a little last night before the game. Take it for what it's worth, but when a buddy of mine was asking about scheduling an event with whoever the next coach is, Whit's response was, "whether it's Bud or whoever else" that we would make it work. Sure, he probably knows there's a large part of Hokie Nation that wants Bud as Head Hokie, and most know Bud also wants it. So he could possibly be playing into that. Plus, he's a smart man who won't show his cards, but it is at least interesting to mention that Bud is in the running and the only name mentioned. Also interesting is that he didn't say "Bud or Shane or whoever else." Just Bud.
EDIT: For the record, I would never expect Whit to mention any name of a candidate outside the current staff, like Fuente, Morris, etc, that we could be looking at. He mentioned how much he's hearing from people about their opinions and how important the hire is. The guy gets it. He's going to make a stellar hire, whoever it is, because he believes he's the right guy for the job.
I started a thread about it a few weeks ago and it was discussed a bit, so there has been some discussion
Pep Hamilton
Pep could be a really good choice, but I that seems like a long shot. His career trajectory looks like that of a guy who wants to be an NFL head coach. The next logical step, assuming that no NFL team is going to make him HC this year, would be another NFL coordinator position or a college head coach. Spending another year or two as a college OC would not advance his goals, IMHO.
I can't look at this avatar and not burst out laughing.
I dunno, pep has never done anything without Andrew Luck, and his recent firing resulted in a rapid improvement for the colts
If Bud were hired as HC, I would imagine we would have to pay less, so that would mean more cash to spend on an OC. I think he would go for a spread/up tempo guy. Tony Franklin has been linked here before, and I believe he and Bud are friends/played together in college. Jeff Scott (co-OC at Clemson) or one of the co-OCs at TCU might be a good fit as well. We could possibly go after Scott Frost out at Oregon too. All just guesses. My best guess, however, is that Bud isn't the next HC.
Shawn Elliott from USC'e as well.
Man, Jeff Scott would be a money hire. Also, if Morris somehow ends up the head guy, Scott would be my hope to be the OC.
Why? Just curious!
I love this question. I think we need to give this more thought because I believe Bud as HC has more merit than everyone thus far has given. No sauces or anything, just wishful thinking perhaps.
Agreed. Bud as HC lets us save a little on that position because he's unproven as of now. We can spend a little more on a great OC and maybe hire some more recruiting staff to help out in that department
In addition to the budget for an OC, we will need money for expanding recruiting as well. This was something Bud himself mentioned as needing more of when he lobbied himself for the job. As loyal as Foster has been to #GameDayforFrank and #VT for the past 29 years, I think we owe him at least a shot at the helm for 3 years.
Exactly. His salary likely opens up more possibilities for the staff than most anyone else and that's something I think we need now more than a big name "hot hand" coach. If we can put more money into a better/elite oc and get some new resources/recruiters to help on recruiting, I think we can make a faster turn around than hiring a fuente or Herman.
PS: I'd still love to get Tom Herman. Dude is a dude.
I concur.
I can just imagine the contract incentives this could lead to that Whit could use with Bud as HC. The possibilities are many - lots of benefit to VT for several years.
My biggest worry, if Bud is hired, is that he keeps Loeffler. If that is the case, then I really don't want Bud to be HC.
If Loeffler was retained(and that's a really big if) I can't imagine it would be for more than one more year.
I can see this, but I'm not as worried about it as everyone else. I think if Bud is the HC, Shane is gone, and the new RB coach is the real question. I suspect that Bud would require 60% standard runs from his OC, whoever it is. And I would argue that enforcing that run-first play-calling would actually help Lefty's play-calling dramatically, as would tossing the RB-wheel-of-destiny crap Shane wants. I could see us hitting 70% runs regularly with HCBud, and I don't feel it matters who the OC is as long as they have 2 things, 1) a competent passing-scheme utilizing route combinations to always get a receiver open, and 2) the basic understanding of football necessary to run dives, sweeps, play-action, and slants from the same formation.
I have noticed Scot Loeffler starting to make improvement on offense with his guys in his system. The offense has not been the reasons for losses this year. I would not mind keeping scot Loeffler at all. But I believe in Whit 100% and he'll make the right hire .
If Loeffler ever gets it together with the talent he needs, he'll be a force to be reckoned with.
You can say that about almost any offensive coordinator.
Hell, I could probably put a good offense on the field if I had elite talent at every position
Based on my NCAA dynasties I'm probably the best damn offensive coordinator money can buy.
I suppose there is a little truth to that, but Loeffler has some pretty complex schemes that Elite talent would make pretty formidable. Elite talent, AND elegant X's and 0's.
What's funny is that people talk about how they'd like a particular coach, and a then say "well, coaching doesn't matter".
Something matters, whether it's coaching, recruiting, or prestige. Maybe all of them are necessary.
Stiney's offense was top 40/50 with elite talent at every position.
We really don't know how much is Lefleur (still on bourbon trail) and how much is Frank. The RB rotation is still my biggest beef with Lefty logic.
I'm not sold the RB rotation is 100% on Loeffler...smells an awful lot like S.Beamer IMO
Who is accountable for the offense? Right.
Yeah, sure, he's accountable for the offense. I think he's partly responsible for the RB rotation in that he never should have let it get to that point. At the same time, though, if you're working with your Boss's son and heir apparent and he's dead set on doing something a specific way how likely are you to contradict him? It's tough because you have to hire your staff and then trust them to do their job. Loeffler can't do Shane's job for him so he's relying on Shane, a guy he didn't have a choice in hiring, to handle the RB coaching and rotation.
I think ultimately Loeffler is a great Xs and Os guy but he doesn't have that Alpha Male Killer Instinct to confidently demand things go his way. I seriously doubt if Loeffler dreamed up the RB rotation. I think that was Shane's baby. Where Loeffler failed, though, is that he didn't put the kibosh on it soon enough.
I agree with most of your thesis, but the situation with Shane Beamer was never going to be handled any other way considering his father is the Head Coach. This is not a knock on CFB, but he is human after all and most parents are usually blind to some aspects of their kid(s) one way or another.
IMHO, I think Scott Loeffler handled it correctly. Let Shane's RB rotation show CFB that it wasn't helping the offense until CFB couldn't ignore the issue and realize it for a mistake.
I think Scot handled it diplomatically. I don't agree that it was correct. His job has been on the line since Auburn and he has to be aware of that. If he knows that the RB rotation is hurting his offense and he knows that if his offense looks bad it ultimately falls on his shoulders than he has to know that he needs to act quickly and effectively to make a change there. He can't sit around and wait for his boss to do something about it. That's a mark against Loeffler IMO. I want an OC who has complete control of his offense. Not a guy who is doing his best with one hand tied behind his back. It might have been F.Beamer who tied Loeffler's hand behind his back but Loeffler still had a free hand to help get himself free. He should have done something about the RB rotation way way sooner than it happened.
But has OC Loeffler ever had complete control of the offense? He didn't pick his RB coach, he didn't pick the TE coach and he had no input on the WR coach (Moorehead). He at least knew the O-Line coach (Grimes) at their time together at Auburn.
Just curious, but normally when an OC is hired, doesn't he get to choose his position coaches that will work under him?
I think Shane should save us all some consternation and get an HC job at an FCS or G5 school. Then no one has to feel bad about canning him...
He won't tho...he is Frank's son.
If true, then the whole offensive change was smokescreen which has been said before do perhaps true.
I've been saying all along that loeffler doesn't deserve the amount of criticism he's been getting by some here, but there are better OC's out there, and if we got one of them, I wouldn't complain.
We can all agree that somewhere in Scot Loeffler is a really good OC. Unfortunately he continues to make some just incredulously bad play calling decisions. At some point we are going to have to just accept that he is who he is. I have been a big Loeffler defender all along, but at this point I think that it is best for all involved to move on.
I agree with you guys. Loeffler isn't bad and has made improvements, but this team needs something more. I think if Bud is the HC he will have his choice of some OCs that will/should be an improvement.
Recruiting comes down to working diligently, connecting, and persuading. If you can't recruit, there is little to no evidence that you can get a decent OC on board.
To compensate for this perceived deficiency, he needs to come to his Whit interview having discussed OC with multiple prospective OCs, having different perspectives, and having a few guys "very likely to come on board" based on recent conversations, and engaging Whit with who is top choice(s) would be and some pros and cons.
Failing that, I don't see how he gets the HC job unless he is last resort. Not a bad last resort mind you... if he picks a stud coach like an up and coming Morris (even a Morris coming out of HS)... I could see him being wildly successful. If it is more offensive ineptitude in the berg... we'll see more fan apathy than we began to see this year.
One giant problem with your analogy: Recruiting an adult is a whole lot different than recruiting a teenage kid.
Bud is held in very high regards among coaches, and it doesn't take 100s of letters, twitter interactions, photoshopped pictures, late night phone calls, and parading them around town to win them over. I don't think Bud will have a problem with a P5 (or even some G5) up and comer who wants to make the next step (a promotion) and get a pay raise. Those two things usually make most competitive adults make the move.
I don't see any evidence that Scot Loeffler has ever been or ever will be a good OC. Being a good OC is much more than "has a better passing structure than O'Cainspring."
The biggest problem with this argument is that Loeffler does not run the style of offense that Bud has said he favors. That's not to say that Lefty is a bad coordinator, but I do think that his system may be a bit to complex for college. If it takes 2-3 years to learn his system, then it's probably not a good system for most college teams, where players are limited to only 4 years playing. You really have little room for error in recruiting, because if an offensive player doesn't pan out, or is plagued by injuries, you won't have enough experienced guys to effectively fill the void. Then when you do strike gold with a great talent, it also hurts you when he leaves early for the NFL.
Not to mention he's had a lot of success recruiting QBs. I doubt he would ever take a demotion to QB coach though. Judging from his press conferences recently though I think he knows he's on his way out regardless.
Loeffler is better than O'Cainspring, but we can do a lot better.
On whether or not Bud is the next head coach, I think it all depends on how Whit views the current state of the program and if we were(are) heading in the right direction. (Obviously we all know that most of us want a major change and new direction, but this is Whit's decision to make, not ours)
If he thinks that the current staff is getting their crap together and was expecting us to get back to where we need to be (before Frank retired), then I think he makes Bud Foster the HC. With Bud, I think we retain our currently recruiting commits and I think he keeps Loeffler, at least for next year. This hire won't "make a splash" but it keeps the program consistent, which Whit feels is on the rise.
If he wasn't seeing potential/improvement in the current staff, then Frank was going to be fired anyway at the end of the season. Then he'd find his new head coach from the outside. This hire would "make a splash" and would change the program. Whether the change would be for the better or for the worse is only something time could tell.
Long story, short.
- Bud is a safe hire and the program continues without missing a beat, with the potential for improvement. I don't think Bud makes the program any worse. If he doesn't work out, look for a new head coach in 3 - 4 years.
- A new guy from the outside as the head coach is a high risk, high reward situation. No one knows what the end result will be.
The question is: "How much of a gambler is Whit Babcock?"
(Side Note: I know Whit got a splash hire with Buzz but he could afford to be a gambler in this situation because there was no "In House" options. The Bball program was a dumpster fire and it couldn't get much worse. Our Football program isn't currently the bottom feeder like everyone likes to think we are. The new coach, whomever it is, could potentially make our program worse than it currently is. Hence, why I say this is a gamble)
I also think it is possible to give Bud a short leash, while with a completely new HC you almost have to give them 4-5 years (buyout numbers and system change). A new HC this year will be able to leverage us for a lot of money and a pro-coach contract due to all the openings and a large interest in the current P5 up and comers (Herman, Fuente, Morris, etc.). We will also probably have to go through the rebuilding process again with another HC if it doesn't work out.
I think Bud would be up for a contract that would allow us to get a top-notch OC and also allow us to get a feel for his way of handling the program in 2-3 years. If it doesn't work then, we can hit the reset button at that point.
This is a tough question to answer because a lot of the guys we're throwing out there have OC jobs at P5 schools already. Like, I don't think Doug Meachem or Sonny Cumbie would want to leave TCU to become OC at another P5 school. I don't think Kendal Briles (the OC at Baylor) would want to leave to become OC at a different P5 school.
You gotta go with a level below that like OU did with Lincoln Riley last year.
Or a retread from the P5 realm.
I'm on the Loeffler train.
So is he. And it's leaving Blacksburg this winter. Probably never to return
I think Bud deserves a shot! I love the names that are coming up of being potential head coach but I don't see what we lose with Bud Foster as Head Coach. He has stayed with the program for a long time and even when we have a down year he still shows he is a great coordinator. IF Bud is the next HC, Loeffler deserves to be back another year. We got some great QB's coming down the pipe and honestly Brewer and Motley have turned out to be decent QB's. It is Dwayne Lawson's time next year and Loeffler will be focused on teaching him I think we got a good program going. The offense has been fun to watch at times. Nothing like the last year Logan was here, that was hard to watch.
Maybe this is where the RichRod rumor comes in? /s
The more I run through head coaching scenarios, the more I think Bud should get the nod. I agree with his sentiments, that the culture here is as strong as ever, just the results have been sub-par.
Unless they can pull Richt in, retain Bud and maintain status quo, I want Bud, homegrown by Beamer.
Any of the up and comers (Fuente, Herman, Fleck, Rhule, Cambell), do not have VT ties or loyalty. I feel like any of those guys could bolt within 3 years to a bigger college program or professional football if we put a few great seasons together (10+ wins). That makes me queasy, I hate the thought of being burned by getting someone who isn't loyal to VT after a few years of solid performance. There is lowered expectations in the first years after a new coach is hired, to implement his system and get his style of players, its a true rebuild, and your only really coming out on top if the rebuild works, and the man who did it sticks around. I just dont have the .500 expectations for VT, ever, the ACC is to collectively weak for us to merely tread water.
I'm on board with revamping the offense, as our defense will forever be our stronghold as long as Bud Foster is involved. Give him the added responsibility and re-allocate the difference in earnings between Bud and Beamer to the recruiting trail, or pay a fortune for a proven offensive mastermind.
I'm just not ready to abandon the existing VT culture and a stalwart defense year in and year out for a chance at a successful overhaul. I think our true problem in achieving greatness is isolated to recruiting and offensive impact. Whatever changes are made this offseason, I pray Bud Foster is still at Virginia Tech to start the 2016 season.
Final thought, that game last night was wonderful to watch. It made me wince at times, like that pick 6, but it was like a finely tuned chess match between two masterminds. I am always fascinated in the way Paul Johnson calls a game and reacts to defensive looks. Bud adapted and conquered. That was a far better game than your typical 4-5 vs 3-6 matchup.
On the other hand, if we have great enough seasons for a coach to
boltbe hired away, that's good for us. Puts us in a good position even if stability isn't there. I'd rather be a landing spot than a stepping stone, but if we're succeeding enough that a big program wants our coach, we shouldn't be that upset. We all should face the truth that Beamer is the last of his kind. It is HIGHLY unlikely that we see loyalty like that in college football ever again. He's a different breed than many of today's coaches. I'm excited for the next chapter, whatever it may be, but let's not convince ourselves that we're going to find another Beamer out there to be with us for 15 seasons or more.THIS!!
This sounds like Bud Foster to me in many regards....
This prolly seems way left field, but my friend informed me of bob stitt yesterday. Seems like his offenses move the ball well and SCORE LOTS. checks two of my boxes, of course hes never been a D1 FBS coordinator so who knows recruiting, but as far as Xs and Os go it seems like hed be a good fit. Hes currently coaching Montana and scores boatloads, but got his start as the head coach of the colorado school of mines head coach...scoring boatloads of points
If a guy has a system like this and Bud can relate it to the Clemson, Morris, Briles, RR offenses, how it scales as athletes get better, how it might get guys to the NFL, how it might play in the ACC.
I could see Bud getting the job... but he's gotta get these conversations started and go in with a shortlist of OC who seem willing to go in with him as the VT OC.
I'd prefer he get the HC job with an up and coming guy with a great system. But ... he has to own this thing and convince people that he has it covered... I haven't seen anyone own offense in Blacksburg, for maybe since before I was a student.
Showing up and saying I owned the defense, I'll own the whole thing and do it well. I don't think thats gonna get him the job. Gotta show he has a plan, which includes getting a real OC on board.
What about the guy from ND State?
I think Loefler's offense is starting to come together. But his play calling drives me crazy. I hope his continual one play for Motley series is to set up a home run pass against UNC; because so far all it has accomplished is to waste a down and put us behind the chains. It's hard to say how much Beamer influences the play calls. I don't think he overrules the OC much, if at all; but I do think Beamer's philosophy affects his decisions. Bottom line, I think we are moving in the right direction and would be willing to give Loefler another year.
Loeffler doesn't have full control of the offense. Shane and Stiney have had their say over the course of the season. When the RB by Com stopped, I noticed Shane wasn't being too loud about it. I certainly believe if Foster is the HC, and Leoffler stays, Shane is out, possibly Stiney, and Leoffler brings in Leoffler guys. He's had production just about everywhere but Auburn. I certainly don't fault him for the lack of success but it is noticeably better than before, and says a lot about him as a coach.
Personally, I'd love an OC that would utilize the speed and talent that do have. Let's get our players in space running at full speed. Clemson, TCU, Oregon, off the top of my head
Would the doomsday scenario be that Foster is looked over for the Tech job, London gets fired and UVA offers Foster the UVa HC? Good god that would be terrible.
Foster at LOLUVa? Talk about a bad fit. It would be like binging in a grizzly bear to oversee a children's tea party.
Yeah but a coach that punches them in the neck is what they need.
They'd have to give him the head coach position, and I don't see them doing that.
IMO bud will not be the head coach.