The Virginia Tech men's basketball team came into Tuesday's New York City matinee with Saint Joseph's off a four game victory tour over lower level opponents. The Hokies' 79-62 loss at the hands of the Hawks deflated whatever momentum the team had built over the last few weeks, as they were thoroughly handled from the opening tip.
Buzz Williams' team has taken strides since the Iowa State debacle nearly a month ago. The tempo has picked up, the offense has found more identity and the defense is slowly solidifying. It all seemed for naught against Saint Joe's, as the team settled for jumpers, allowed the pace to be dictated and were individually dominated on the other end.
Versatile wing DeAndre Brembly paced the game for the Hawks with 18 of his 22 points in the first half, before making way for fellow undersized forward Isaiah Miles, who scored 36 and added 15 rebounds. The duo was simply too much for Tech to handle, as they not only struggled containing the two but keeping up with them offensively as well.
The Hokies noticeably failed to attack the basket and create all afternoon, relying on Seth Allen's quick first step (18 points) simply because it was the only thing that worked. Justin Bibbs couldn't find his shot early on and was swallowed up by the Hawks' defense, Chris Clarke looked like he was still recovering from whatever bug kept him out the previous game and Zach LeDay was engulfed by defenders with each touch.
Saint Joe's head coach Phil Martelli decided to double the post early and often, which meant LeDay's touches were under duress with every entry pass. Though he did post a double-double, it was nowhere near as efficient as the junior's been in game's past, and the entire team paid for it.
As for the rest of the supporting cast, none made a mark. Devin Wilson and Jalen Hudson failed to penetrate successfully and ended up with looks Saint Joe's would have paid them to take (the two were 0-7 from behind the arc, which needless to say is less than ideal). Justin Robinson was racked with fouls which limited his minutes, and Kerry Blackshear Jr. (also saddled with foul trouble) and Johnny Hamilton couldn't take advantage of their opponent's small lineup.
It was a disappointing result in the team's first test since the Northwestern game. Don't get it confused, the Hawks were the better team coming in (30 spots higher in KenPom's basketball ratings) and remain so on the way out of Brooklyn. But in a season of perceived corners turned and improvements made, Tech looked disappointingly listless.
And as concerning as this performance was, it only gets more difficult from here. The Hokies host West Virginia next Wednesday and then kick off conference play with NC State, Virginia and Duke in the span of seven days. Not exactly the perfect time to get things right.
One bad loss isn't the end of the world by any means for a team this young, but it's the last time they'll play someone similarly talented for three weeks (WVU, UVA and Duke are all top-12 teams according to KenPom, NC State is 64th). Can they grow during this stretch? Yes, but it'll be more of a baptism by fire type of growth, one that breaks teams much more often than it molds them.
A Few Quick Thoughts ft. Joey Coogan
This space is usually reserved for my analysis about the game, but since we're both overloaded with observations Joey and I decided to tackle this one together.
Brian: There's a cruel irony when you compare this team to last year's version. The talent up and down the roster is better at every position, but the one thing they took a step back in (three point shooting) is the same thing that kept them in many-a game in 2014-15. Last season's team wasn't good, but if they got hot at the right time things could keep things close in the last five minutes.
Now? The scores during ACC play may be even more lopsided, even though Tech is actually improving. It'll be hard to see, but these results (whatever they may be) will be less flukey. There are more defenders, more tough guys and a higher ceiling in Blacksburg. It'll be incredibly frustrating to watch, especially after the last three years, but personally I'll be fine with basketball players who can get to the rim and a team which can rely on more than blindly bombing away from distance.
Joey: The absence of Ahmed Hill cannot be understated.
Hill, who averaged 8.7 points, 3.7 rebounds, and 1.5 assists per game a season ago, was arguably the Hokies' most important player in Williams' first year in Blacksburg.
Sidelined after undergoing offseason leg surgery, Hill has been an afterthought all season, presumably headed for a redshirt. But until today, after watching a listless Hokies' team get thoroughly dominated by Saint Joe's, I failed to realize just how much the Hokies missed him.
Hill plays with an unrelenting intensity on both ends of the floor that bears a striking resemblance to the sideline demeanor of the man who recruited him to Marquette and then Virginia Tech. Like current freshman Chris Clarke, Hill's aggressive mentality gets the best of him at times, but with a full year under his belt, I expected a much improved Hill.
When Hill combines his motor with an understanding of when to pick his spots, he'll be a dangerous player. People are quick to forget that Hill finished his heralded high school career as the 3rd leading scorer in the history of Georgia high school basketball. Regardless of the competition, offensive system or the height of the rim, that's a downright impressive statement.
Combine that knack for putting the ball in the basket with his ability to lockdown the other team's best player defensively and it's no mystery as to why Hill endeared himself to his head coach so quickly.
It's probably wishful thinking to expect Hill to return this season, but if the sophomore can get back on the floor, expect the Hokies to be much improved.
Brian: Allen is the focal point of the offensive attack. This not only means he's the best player, but it also highlights the team's lack of ability to get to the basket at other positions. LeDay and Wilson have physical limitations, Hudson's notoriously up and down, and the rest of the freshmen (Clarke, Robinson and Blackshear) are still finding their games.
Because of these limitations, Buzz and company have to do their best to put lineups on the floor that can optimize their strengths. They're not good enough to play someone who's an absolute zero on one end of the floor, which is why we'll end up seeing less and less of the current big men.
The Hokies are at their best when the move the ball around quickly, get up and down and force the other team into mistakes. Hamilton and Henry are complete negatives in this sort of style. Neither has great hands or vision to make the appropriate pass to a cutter (outside of Johnny's one nice assist today), and don't have to be respected outside of five feet. And on defense, neither is the sort of shot blocking stalwart who makes his limitations acceptable.
With the lack of time Satchel Pierce has seen thus far, it looks like the coaching staff isn't comfortable with anything he brings to the table right now. Considering how quickly the rest of the team wants to move, it makes sense to see the sophomore as the odd man out. He's a little slow and robotic when his squad has the ball, but again (are you seeing a theme here?) he's not enough of a presence on the other end to warrant major playing time.
Blackshear is the best option as a lone big next to LeDay, even then he looks bogged down at times. To borrow an old Hokie football euphemism, his mind sometimes ties up his feet. But the difference between him and the rest of the pack is that his other skills (court vision, passing) are enough to make up for his deficiencies.
But with one true option as a big, the Hokies will struggle against larger teams and be forced into a choice: sacrifice everything they do offensively for someone tall enough to guard an opposing center, or go small and understand the disadvantage. If I had to guess, we'll see much more of the latter.
Joey: Seth Allen is this team's best player, and it's not close.
Sure, his shot selection is less than desirable at times, and sure, he's turnover-prone when attacking off the dribble. But instead of focusing on what Allen isn't, focus on what Allen is.
Allen is the team's only natural scorer, an alarming but honest assessment of this year's version of the Hokies. He's proven himself to be a talented passer — he led the team with 7 assists against Lamar. But more importantly, he's the Hokies' most talented and most experienced player, a combination that is rare in college basketball today.
After the Hokies' early-season win over Jacksonville State, I asked Buzz if he felt Allen, who at the time was in a serious rut, was pressing just a few games into his Virginia Tech career.
His answer — comparing Allen's feel for the game to NBA all-star Jimmy Butler's — was astonishing.
Had we been watching the same Allen, I wondered? The one who jacked up contested three-pointers, turned the ball over at an alarming rate, and often appeared frustrated with everyone from his teammates to the officials?
But after 12 games, I'm starting to realize Buzz's seemingly-outlandish comparison isn't so outlandish.
Make no mistake about it, this is Allen's team, and they'll go as far as he takes them.
Comments
Accurate headline and writeup.
Sort of glad it happened now, so VT can better prepare for the ACC.
This was an embarrassing loss. I took the time out of my day to fire up this game on ESPN3 and I expected a lot more given how much we've "improved". As of now, I expect this team to get blown out against WVU by 25-30 points.
I really struggle with Allen. He plays the game like a scorer, like Green and Delaney did before him at VT, but it's just really frustrating to watch. Maybe he's still too new. Maybe his transfer status masks that he has put in the time to earn ill-advised shots. Or maybe he's just not as good as EG or MD were here. But his bad shots drive me nuts whereas I would just shrug and say "What else can we do?" when EG or MD hoisted up stinkers.
I'm hoping he grows on me. Unfortunately, he probably needs to win some games in heroic fashion to earn those stripes from me.
The difference is that Green would make those shots more often than Allen does.
I can appreciate cds7c's sentiment. It often takes a while for someone to earn that trust.
However, people are quick to forget that Erick Green had an extremely forgettable freshman year in Blacksburg, averaging just 2.6 ppg on less than 30% shooting. For comparison's sake, Allen averaged 7.8 ppg in his freshman year at Maryland.
I'm not saying Allen is (or will be) the player than Green was, just pointing out that things don't always start out perfectly, even for future pros.
We struggled along with Green. He was one of us. Allen isn't yet. It's weird, still feels like he's a UMD guy. I think he will earn that trust, but I'm not there yet.
It's like a family business hiring a CEO from the outside.
Oh, I totally get it. Just wanted to make sure we all remembered Erick Green couldn't hit the broad side of a barn his freshman year...and then, well, we all know what happened after that.
Ironically, it was against UMD in the triple OT game where young Erick Green launched his most famous brick. He had a wide open three that would have won that game......and got
VT in the tournament.......and saved Seths job.....and kept Montrezl Harrell......
Oh, the memories...
To be fair, I wasn't comparing Allen as a junior to Green as a freshman. Green took those terrible shots his senior year because he was always doubled up. He was the only effective offensive weapon we had that year. But yet he backed it up by making a high percentage and leading the county in scoring.
Valid point, maybe Allen just isn't good enough yet to justify bad shots.
The thing that kills me about Allen is that when he goes super aggressive to the rim, it's often against heavy numbers and a lot of the time he gets blocked, takes a terrible shot, or loses the handle on the ball. But the worst is when he drives in hard, gets fouled on the shot AND MISSES BOTH FREE THROWS. I'm all about aggressiveness if you can make the shot or get some points at the line (or better yet collapse the defense and kick to an open guy) but aggressiveness for aggressiveness sake is more of a liability than anything. Maybe I'm wrong about the guy, but it feels like when SA goes up against evenly matched talent he goes cold, and then gets frustrated and makes bad decisions. I hope I wrong.
From covering the team over the past month, I felt like this wasn't quite accurate, but I honestly didn't know if the stats would back my feeling up so I dug through the box scores.
Against the best 5 teams the Hokies have played (Iowa State, Northwestern, UAB, Radford, and St. Joe's), Allen has averaged 18.6 points per game. That bodes well for ACC play.
Alternatively, against the remaining 7 teams (Alabama State, Jacksonville State, VMI, North Carolina A&T, Arkansas Pine-Bluff, Lamar, and Grambling State), Allen has averaged just 11.14 points per game.
I think there's three main reasons for this:
1) Every scorer wants to score when the lights are the brightest.
2) Against better teams, our other offensive options become limited. Sure, that may cause Allen to force a little bit, but it also results in him putting up more points. Conversely, when we play Grambling State, we have a plethora of scoring options.
3) Allen wasn't any good at the beginning of the year, and that period happened to be when we played many of the lower level teams on our schedule.
I will have to disagree on it boding well for ACC play the nights that Allen scores that high for this team. I think its exactly the opposite because when this offense as a team is at its best, Allen is reduced to a facilitator that takes better quality shots when he does shoot and may score near his average but its from far less shots. Look at the list of games and how we fared as a team, in the games you listed that Allen scored 18.6 we went 2-3, and in those games Allen shot well enough to survive (30-75 or 40%) although not really from the perimeter(10-34 or 29%) and he had 13 turnovers to 8 assists, and I would argue that it should likely be higher on the turnover number. He also does not regularly get to the foul line enough if his primary offensive option is to drive the ball to the rim and hope for the best.
Other than the Northwestern game, which I credited Allen with a stellar overall performance, he tends to try to do too much and it hurts this team because it takes away shooting opportunities for his teammates. Today's loss is not on Allen by any stretch, but several of his bad habits did rear their ugly head in this game after being gone for a few games. Namely, driving out of control to the basket, either losing the ball or not managing a shot. There were also several times that Allen didn't get back on defense after attempting a drive on offense that led to quick open scores for the Hawks.
None of this means that he wont continue to be the leading scorer on most nights because he will more than likely but I consider that a testament to how far we still have to go to be competitive every night in the ACC rather than because of how talented he is. It will be especially painful if Buzz doesn't find a way to incorporate the play of the bigger men on our roster. Without strong lane presence, we are susceptible to almost every offense in the ACC because of size. If we are highlighting one game, the Iowa State game was his most dreadful as a Hokie in my opinion. He shot 4-13 from the field, including 0-5 from behind the arc. He only managed three attempts at the line in that game as well. The St Joes game wasn't as bad as everyone made it out to be from a Seth Allen perspective as he was better than normal and definitely one of the few Hokies with drive in this game.
I'll be the first to admit that Allen hasn't been great thus far this season. He was dreadful against Alabama State and Jacksonville State. Him and Buzz both acknowledged as much early in the year.
But 12 games in, it's clear he's the key to our offense. It's not last year when we had several shooters (Mueller, Smith, Johnston, Hill from the corner) camped out behind the arc and Devin Wilson would come off a high ball screen and try to find one of them. Instead, much like St. Joe's did yesterday, teams are sagging off the players who have no proven jump shot (Wilson, Clarke, Hudson, LeDay), leaving Allen as the best option to create on offense. That lack of space to work in will result in turnovers, yes, but Allen is only going to get better as the season goes on. He's at the top of every opponent's scouting report, and as he adjusts to being the primary option (he played with Dez Wells as the leading scorer at Maryland), he'll continue to improve his efficiency.
There is such a premium put on 'downhill' drives to draw fouls, that the pull up game is non-existent except for Bibbs. It results in blocked shots, out of control looking drives, just some really ugly basketball at times. I'm not a fan of the style at all.
I never thought you could have one without the other. You gotta make em step so you can blow by them and draw the foul.
Disappointing we were beaten down low by a 6-7 forward.
Ultimately, expectations are slowly being tempered for this year's team, but I still have high aspirations for 2016-17.
Digging this program out of the rubble is a slow process. Setbacks like Hill's injury and Outlaw's medical DQ don't do anything to speed it up.
Frustrating loss, also after seeing that BC defeated Fordham. We almost seem doomed for another season in the cellar. It seemed like we had started to turn the corner a bit since the second half of the Northwestern game.
I really just don't understand not using Satch at all. I get it if we had an uptempo offense but it's just not there. We are going to get owned on the boards come ACC play if we keep going with the small lineup as we saw today.
Saint Joe's is a very good team. Much better than us, I don't get all the soon and gloom right now. We will move on and learn from it.
Saint Joe's is not Iowa State. They were probably better than us on paper, but I'm not sure I would define them as "very good" and 17 points better. That is what is so frustrating to hokie fans, this was our last possible tests to show progress over the last month or so and we failed miserably. The road is only getting much much tougher from here. :/
I think we could win that 3 out of 10 times. And that will be out to the test in ACC play since every team will be a saint Joe's almost. If we can do that, we have improvement over last year.
I caught some of the replay (beer was required.) For the life of me I couldn't figure out why we continued to have guards chase down their big guys. Miles and Bembry were constantly lighting it up and we were matching up smaller guards man to man on them. We actually have depth at the C/F spots this year. I have no idea why we didn't rotate some bigs in to shut that down and force them to shoot outside. The bigs would have also helped with our rebounding (which was terrible from what I could sit through.)
"I have no idea why we didn't rotate some bigs in to shut that down and force them to shoot outside."
Okay but to be fair, it was a tale of two halves. Bembry scored almost all of his points in the lane in the first half, but most of Miles' scoring damage came from jumpers from outside. Granted he did absolutely destroy us on the offensive glass, but some days a guy just can't miss. It's not like Miles was going inside and getting uncontested layups; he was mostly hitting 20-25 ft jumpers that just happened to go in. Even if Pierce, Blackshear, or Hamilton were on him, I'd still be willing to bet he would have had a very similar game.
19 of Miles points came by way of layup, dunk, tip in or from getting to the free throw line after driving into the lane to score. Having someone capable of redirecting him would have been helpful but probably doesn't change the outcome of the game. I do however think that having our bigs in the lane playing defense could have had a big impact, but Buzz prefers the smaller lineup for offense and the man to man defense that allowed St Joes to draw our bigs outside when they were in the game.
The thing is, Zach LeDay (6'7", 235) checked Miles (6'7", 216) for the majority of the game. That's not a (physical) mismatch.
Kerry Blackshear (much bigger than Miles) and Chris Clarke (an inch shorter than Miles) each guarded him in spurts, and sure, there was an occasional switch. But Isaiah Miles just worked us, plain and simple.
I'm no expert here, but the team seems lost while on the court. Defensive rotations are really bad, and on offense you see guys rotating to the exact same spot on a regular basis. It's like the guys still don't understand whatever it is that Buzz wants them to do. Combine that with the fact that there are usually only two guys on the floor at a time who can score and you get what we had today... I'm afraid many more games like today will be what we endure this season.
I'm sorry, I'll agree to disagree on Allen. It seems like him and Buzz are the only two people that see him as the team's best player. He is a true competitor don't get me wrong, but he isn't skilled enough to be "the guy." He tries to be and it doesn't work. He takes stupid shots and has a very poor percentage to show for it. He often tries to go to the hoop through two or three guys. Seth Allen = a wasted possession, more often than not. I'd argue that Bibbs, Clarke, and LeDay are all better players, though Bibbs is the only one that's more talented. Also Seth needs to work on his own game before he starts yelling at his teammates over their small mistakes. I know some will cite that as leadership, but as much as he does it (and often to better players) it definitely seems like he brings negative energy to the court.
After seeing how the Allen transfer has worked out, it seems obvious that Adam Smith got a raw deal. Smith over Allen 10 times out of 10, that was easily the worst move we made in the offseason.
It pains me to see UVA so good at basketball while we're just trying to figure it all out.
For some reason, that really doesn't bother me at all.
What the heck is Devin Wilson doing shooting 3s???? I know he was wide open but he might, on a good night, hit 1 out of 10.....
Was never going to be a quick process. When people said this was one of the worst jobs in the power conferences you're saying why that was the case. Buzz is building from the ground up and trying to instill basketball intelligence and culture where there was none. It's going to take time to get right, and it won't be this season, and unfortunately I don't think it will be next year, either.
Little continuity in the program. Little continuity in personal development. And it shows.
Fix those two things and Buzz's teams will be very good.
Its just gonna take a while to fix those two things. Guys must have big offseasons and must develop pieces of their game so they can more effectively contribute. As these guys get to know one another and their strengths weaknesses they can then adapt on the fly better. They just don't seem to recognize and adjust based on what they are seeing and what their strengths and weaknesses are.
They also looked very tentative and lacking in confidence out there tonight. Basket ball IMHO is a hard sport because you have to be very athletic, very competitive while at the same time doing something that is more art than science. Letting something or someone get in your head is a great way to suck at this game. Kids need confidence and verve to succeed. I'm not sure they're going to get confidence and verve til after they get smashed for 40 mins in a couple of ACC competitions. Then its gonna be f*** it ... balls to the wall cuz we got no choice.
Its gonna get better but its gonna be a brutal year. I really hope we see player rotation. I don't see anyone on this team who makes me feel like he is a 40 minute player. These guys should know PT next year is up for grabs. Putting our bigs on the Bench makes me worry about transfers and program instability. Fine if that is the message you want to send. But ... I feel like I need a game brochure to know who is on the team. Lets develop these kids and root like he** for them and see what can happen. They've got talent but each and everyone has significant work to do on their game. I really like rooting for kids that work hard like that.
I'd have to agree with you Brian. Yes Seth Allen has had countless mind boggling decisions, sloppy turnovers and out of control drives this year... but he is far and away the best offensive talent we have and I think our success throughout this year and next will depend mostly on him. No one is better off the dribble or at creating their own shots... he is our only real enforcer right now with the ball in his hands. I also don't feel that he is as selfish as most people think, rather he feels he has to do too much and is just trying to force himself into a grove that he hasn't quite found yet. I think if Buzz can get him to recognize how bad some of his shots are and how out of control he has been at times, then he will slow it down more when necessary and eventually find that things will come naturally easier for him. At that point maybe the offense will flow better as a unit and be more effective overall... but I do believe it all starts and ends with Seth.
I'll agree that he's the best offensive option, but it doesn't get anymore selfish than taking a 4 on 1 fastbreak all by yourself and turning it over.
I've been defending Allen the whole season, but last nights game broke that for me. I've seen little bits here and there that I dismissed like you have said, but he brought the whole package last night in my opinion. It seemed like most times when he controlled the offense it was a turnover on a bad pass, a missed open shot (I can forgive that), a missed highly contested shot, a missed easy conversion. I vividly remember a pass to Blackshear's backside that resulted in a turnover, a pass to an open Leday (i believe) in the corner that was too high and too hard, a pass to Leday on a fast break that led him too far. The last straw was the 1 on 3 fast break we had in the second half where he faked the pass behind his back and lost the ball out of bounds trying to score himself. That should have been an easy 2 points and all he had to do was pass the ball to a teammate that was both a better physical match-up and was in position to create a foul and easy 2 point conversion.
He does not have the best offensive talent, he has the best potential to be a big scoring point guard. He takes the shots every game to fill that role, but has rarely made those shots this season.
I'm pulling for him to turn it around, but he has some work to do.
The more I read, the more I understand I don't know squat about BB. However, I see a long and arduous trip back to mediocrity for us. Jim Weaver, RIP, did us in when he fired Seth. Seth was a true Hokie and bled Maroon and Orange. Spilled milk, I know.
I did not watch this game. I plugged in my ear phones and listened. As always, my heart said any minute now, Bibbs will can a couple 3's and we will be back in it. Or, we drive and make a bunny and get fouled, 3 point play. Or, a great defensive stop and a slam at the other end. Yawn.
If that was 100% true he never would have been fired when he was. By all accounts that I heard he was fired because he was no longer a fit in the VT culture.
When, oh when will Buzz make us competitive in the ACC?
Well, f-k dammit! I REALLY felt that this was a great opportunity for a "make a statement game with win". This program still has a long-ass way to go.
Nothing annoys me more about yesterday's game than how the entire team rewound the clock on their development and maturation so far this season. Seeing the individuals make the same mistakes that Buzz had put emphasis on to correct in earlier games just crushes my hopes against these last few OOC opponents and conference play.
But even still, I just try to hold onto the fact that is a relatively new team, and maturity doesn't develop overnight. Hopefully the embarassment yesterday sticks in their side and they play with the same agression they did against Radford when they play WVU.
Totally agree. They looked like they'd figured out the effort part and were playing the same no matter the opponent. To stink it up like that was a huge disappointment.
A more apt title for the thread would be "Buzzketball gets Rick-Rolled by SJ".
I've noticed this a lot on this board, and I'm as guilty as anyone when jumping on board the hype train, but we really had unrealistic expectations this season. Basketball is about chemistry. This team has barely played together 4 months with all the pieces. We're missing our most important player--the ultimate Buzz guy in Hill. We got beat by St. Joes away from home. The world isn't falling. This team was never winning 20 games. It's a process. We've improved over last season. I think even Buzz said it, we're playing a year 3 schedule with a year 2 team.
Buzz inherited a really good team at Marquette and had instant success. Buzz inherited a dumpster fire here. The embers are just now starting to smoke...give it time.
My concern with Buzz' statement regarding schedule is that most rankings have our SOS north of 300 out of 351 teams. To me, that's a year 1 schedule for a mid-major rebuilding. It also goes to show how much work Buzz has cut out for him though.
I saw KenPom had us that low, but most I've seen have us right around 200. Really it doesn't matter, the SOS is gonna go up once conference play starts. I think Buzz's comments related to playing Iowa State, St. Joes, West Virginia, UAB and Northwestern. Those are five tournament caliber teams. Even at Radford is a tough game considering they'd beaten two P5s and it's a local rivalry. That's leaps and bounds much tougher than UNI, PSU, and WVU from last season.
Either way we're headed into well rounded team and well rounded player territory. Rooting for the team, but not expecting much.
I don' t think we have many guys ready to start at the ACC level. Just not well rounded enough and not good enough at any one thing to stand out. Across the board. Hope to eat my words. Talent is there. Next year will be better but they gotta work hard and believe.