I don't have screen grab and haven't watched the second time to get time and who it was.
But watching the game live it seemed like in 3rd or 4th qtr the camera went to Bud emphatically telling someone to get down.
It didn't look like one of his normal play calls and it was during a time when the Tulsa offense was rolling.
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Yes.
I felt this was absolutely true in terms of telling a player to take the time needed to get checked. Time winding down in the game, defense on their heels. Player goes down only to walk off under his own power seconds later, looked to be what the team needed in order to get a sub in. I've seen classic "fakes", but this seemed just getting a player off the field.
As long as teams are running the "hurry up" to catch teams off guard, you are always going to get some of these flops. Hell, I'd do it if it means a W in the column. All part of the game brother.
My 2 cents:
On that particular play referenced above, Bud was yelling at linebacker Edmunds. He was screaming to tell him to "get down", or "get your hand in the dirt". In my opinion, he was telling him to align as a DE. I believe it was the Bear front and he plays wide as a down lineman. If you pay attention to the next play, Edmunds lines up correctly.
Bud was doing a lot of frantic signaling throughout most of the game. The camera caught him clearly yelling at guys about their positioning ("get inside!" was very obvious near the end of the game, right as Tulsa approached the goal line). The only questionably timed injury that I saw was Stroman, late in the game. But he got up slowly and looked legitimately cramped, as would be expected when facing a high-paced offense like Tulsa's. Otherwise, he deserves a heck of an acting award.
I did not notice any other questionable injuries and I think it would be really out of character for Bud to do this.
If I recall, that's the exact injury that they showed Foster signaling downward right before.
However, he was still doing the same hand signals to another player right after that. I doubt that's what he was indicating.
The only circumstance I imagine Bud would tell a player to "get down" is if the player is hurt but is considering trying to make it off the field on a sub and just doesn't have time.
We can discuss this but some information that would be helpful. When did this occur? Did a player then have an injury? A video of this happening.
In the 4th Quarter after Tulsa got a first down, they went quickly to the line like they have the whole game. ESPN then showed Bud on the sideline making signals to the team but it it looked like he could of possibly been telling a player to get down. They then showed a Tech player (Stroman?) on the ground which what looked to be cramps and he then was assisted by the training staff.
There's a chance that the Stroman injury was somewhat strategic very late in the game. But I don't think there is enough evidence to make this worth discussing. Additionally, I am very against the idea that all injuries now are to slow down fast-paced offenses. It's a physical game and people get hurt. I got to watch Clemson fans boo opposing team's injuries for 4 straight years EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. because they were "just trying to slow down our offense!"
Give Fuente two years and we'll be doing the same thing.
I won't. These are kids getting hurt and if the offense is working it'll work with some pauses.
It could also be that he was telling an injured player to get down so he could be examined.
I have had to do that before while coaching. An obvious injured player would get up and want to continue. you need to replace him for a play or 2 so they can get it together.
This, so much this. The TV feed shows him telling the an injured player to get down. I think it was pretty clear that the injury was legit, and that Foster was more worried about him getting down not to hurt himself more AND not be a liability the next play.
Not only that, but if a player is trying to limp off the field and can't make it to the sideline by the next snap (a real possibility against today's no-huddle offenses), then that's a penalty on the defense. The general rule should be, if you're limping and need to come out, go down. That's not faking an injury, that's ensuring a player doesn't aggravate an injury by trying to hustle off the field.
Isn't this exactly what happened in that Baylor game a few weeks ago? Pretty sure Kirk Herbstreit accused him of faking it because of his teammate saying to go down since he was injured but the guy wanted to keep playing.
EDIT: Lozo got me down there \/\/\/\/
If you go back and watch the previous play, a player went down at the snap without any contact.
I think Foster was saying, "if you are hurt, go down. Being a hero and trying to play through the injury is not helping the team at this point"
This is exactly it. He was struggling so he was telling the guy to get down so the play would be stopped and the medical staff could treat him.
Looking WAY too into it.
I saw a player cramping and trying to limp off and Bud told him to get down. This is not outside the norm.
I saw it too...wasn't sure what was going on and I'm not really going to speculate on it because we don't know anything about Bud's signals. Could have been a coincidence. I'd hate to assume that a player feigned injury when they were actually hurt. It didn't affect the outcome of the game anyway. Tulsa scored on that drive.
Hes referring to the Stroman injury I'm sure, but it was hard to see what Stroman was doing, the cameramen didnt do Bud any favors, but if the guy was hurt or cramping and just trying to play it off, he SHOULD go down.
The cameraman just showed Bud losing it over something, then swiping over to Stroman limping and going down as if that was what Bud was losing it about and finally listening.
I didn't see Bud by I think it was Stroman who looked a little cramped or winded. The whole sideline cheered when he went to the ground and the Tulsa side booed. On a side note I could hear Bud screaming at the Defense during a timeout on Tulsa's last drive.
Odds are he knew Stroman was not 100% and needed to be substituted.
IDK, it can become a slippery slope. Remember when the Baylor DB was screaming at a fellow player to 'get down' and everyone thought the guy was faking to slow OU down. Then we found out he had a legitimate injury and his team was looking out for him. Kirk Herbstreit was on the call saying he was faking and (to his credit) ended up apologizing for it.
That's just showmanship-ass-covering. That Baylor kid was faking an injury and Bud was clearing yelling at Alexander to fake an injury, but he didn't understand so Stroman did. Herbie called out something that he probably shouldn't have and then had to apologize for it. That Baylor kid probably did roll an ankle at some point, but in that situation, I'm sure they are instructed to just hit the ground instead of limping off the field. It's an advantage to his team to do so.
It's not a big deal, happens all the time. When someone does it to us next year, I won't be mad then either.
The conjecture is strong with you sir
Why does this board always think that VT is the only ethical school in the NCAA? This isn't even that unethical, it's gamesmanship.
If that situation happened against us (and it will, next year), there is no doubt what is happening. None.
What are you basing this off of? You assume the injury is fake why? Where is the actual evidence to back that assertion up?
I doubt it. I just re-watched it. Two snaps prior, Stroman is lined up, hands on his hips, taking a few slow steps to the side that look a little less than solid to my eyes. He plays a bump and run coverage but (again, to my untrained eye) does not look full speed. That's at about 5:15 left in the 4th if someone wants to go back and look at it again. Two snaps later, Stroman is on the ground and limps off. The camera cutting to Bud doesn't make it clear what's happening on the field. It's not a good look. But it could be explained by any number of things, including Foster noting a player is not 100% and telling him to stop being and idiot and trying to play through it. There is no way to prove one way or the other that Bud was telling him to fake an injury given what evidence we have. I don't see how you or anyone can be so absolutely certain that he was.
Also how many plays did Stroman sit out?
This is what I saw and thought when it happened as well. Don't think it was faking but I also agree with cds7c in that it's gamesmanship and I don't see anything wrong with it. Until they write rules prohibiting it then I don't see the big deal
There is a rule.
Just hard to enforce.
If I was the defensive coach against these high tempo teams, I would tell the players that if they get a little banged up and need to sub for a play, drop down. If not for the tempo, there would be ample time to limp off and run on a sub.
Every player on the field is hurt. Bud just told them to go down so we could help them off.
There is nothing wrong with that. Teams that play up tempo deal with that every game. VT will next year.
Go a little bit further back in the film. Starting at the 5:55 mark, Adonis Alexander starts looking like he is cramping. He then makes a tackle at 5:03 and comes up trying to fix his helmet and starts limping towards the sideline. Bud starts yelling at him to to sit down as he is running towards the sideline at 5:03 (33 seconds on the play clock) mark. He doesn't, and the play goes forward. He then tries to yell again, and Stroman sits down instead.
Moral of the story: I'm not sure that Stroman was hurt, but I think Alexander was and Bud was trying to get him to sit down instead of play through it. Stroman sat down instead.
Edit: It looks like after the break Alexander stays out and Stroman goes back in, which convinces me even more.
I was at the game and can say with full certainty that Alexander was both injured and having problems with his helmet. He ran over to the ref the play before to have them stop the game so he could either get off the field or get his helmet fixed, but the ref didn't stop it. So if Bud was yelling at anyone to get down, it was probably Alexander, who had two legit reasons for the game to be stopped.
So while we assume we are ethical, you assume we are not. That's fine, I'll just try to come to a conclusion that makes sense and has historic trends to support it.
Nowhere have I said that VT is morally above all other teams. I have never said that faking an injury is a technique that we'll never see employed by our defense. I have never once said that other teams fake injuries but VT doesn't. You're assuming quite a lot of things, which really drives my original point home, ironically.
I still think you're basing your assertions on extremely limited knowledge and a whole lot of guess work. There is no way you know who Bud was signalling to, what he was specifically signalling, or whether Stroman was or was not hurt.
Regarding the Baylor incident, you have no idea whether that player was hurt or not. You assume that he was in good enough shape that he could just walk off the field and substitute out but you forget that the defense cannot make a substitution if the offense does not. If a coach wants his most fit players on defense and the offense isn't making any substitutions I don't see a problem with a player who is fighting through an injury to go down so he can come off the field without costing the team a timeout.
I think you're making way too many unfounded assumptions here, which, to be honest, surprises me given your posting history. You are assuming that telling a player to go down equates to faking an injury, when there can be more than one reason to tell a player to go down.
It was pretty clear Strohman was trying to play through pain in that series. Given that he was visibly limping on the field, Foster basically had three options: let Strohman play gimpy, call a timeout, or tell him to get down so he can be substituted without risking a penalty for too many men on the field. Now I agree with you, telling a tweaked player to go down for substitution is gamesmanship. But it's not faking an injury.
You're leveling a pretty serious accusation, considering that actually faking an injury is against the rules of NCAA football, regardless of whether you personally feel the practice is unethical.
I think you and I are of a like mind. Stroman may have been "hurt" but he could have limped off the field. Bud didn't want him to do that, it's gamesmanship for him to be helped off the field in that situation. So maybe with your help, I see that what I was saying isn't that "Stroman was faking an injury" but that Stroman was instructed to go down on the field because it benefited our defense.
But it's my contention that it was pre-game direction that if you are given the signal, you go down. And in particular, if you need a breather or tweak an ankle, you go down.
Do. Not. Limp. Off. The. Field. Against. Tulsa's. Offense. It just doesn't make any sense to do so.
Well, since up tempo offenses generally do not allow for sufficient time for a normal defensive substitution, if one is injured, go to the ground.
I'll question your posit that he could have LEGALLY limped off the field and had a substitution. Awfully close to 12 men on the field and really calls in the question of being properly set for the play. Looks to me like an opportunity for the opponent to take a quick snap in order to either draw the penalty or catch an open hole in the backfield.
I see nothing negative in that injury substitution at all.
Good point, if you are limping and can't get off, they might snap it on you for the penalty. And if they don't substitute, they don't have to let you substitute. There is a lot going on with personnel normally, moreso against a team like Tulsa.
I'm with you on 95% here. Absolutely, we and other programs have instructed our defense that if you are at all tweaked, you go down to signal you need to come out. Honestly, that's the safest way to do it. Prevents turning a tweak into an injury, and prevents risk of penalty.
I don't think there's a signal from sideline to go down. If we had great depth, then yes. But we just don't have the horses in the defensive backfield to fake an injury to a healthy player just to buy a few more seconds between snaps. We want our starters on the field because the drop off behind them is pretty steep.
Usually you bring the heat, but I think you are dead wrong here. No team would risk removing a player at a position where depth is a serious issue. See my comments below.
a precious KO? is herbstreit gollum?
Injuries happen, both legit & fake both on college & the League. Are the fake ones unethical or just another tool to be used when necessary? If faking one can serious stop a team on a roll and it benefits our/my team, well I'm good with it. At most it might raise eyebrows but I couldn't care less.
With Fuente now running the show, I'm guessing Bud is just trying out some strategies he'll be implementing in spring drills to slow the offense down
I didn't notice Bud doing this, but recall Stroman going down, my uneducated guess would be if Bud was signalling for him to go down, that Stroman was trying to a) either play through it, and Bud wanted him either at 100% or not at all, and told him to go down or b) Stroman was trying to get off the field, but due to being cramped or whatever wasn't going to be able to get off prior to the snap, so Bud told him to go down.
I do not believe for a second that Bud was telling one of our guys to fake an injury.
Stroman was cramping and limping to get lined up, so Bud told him...correctly...to go down
This. I thought it was pretty obvious?
Seems like if we don't have actual proof we'd give our own team the benefit of the doubt on this.
I'm going to go along with the mindset that he was injured, and Bud told him to get on the ground instead of limping off the field and possibly making it worse.
The only time I'd really get annoyed is when every play a different player is stopping the game to come off the field, and it's obvious they're all faking it.
You wanna see fake injuries, watch Cal versus Oregon from 2010.
Only time I've ever clearly seen it in person was our game against FSU in 2007. Bowden was doing it repeatedly; even the FSU fans sitting behind us were admitting that was what he was doing. Both teams jogged out, came to the line, and then suddenly the CB would drop like a ton of bricks. Happened a few times on one drive.
That's the only situation I'd make a big stink over it.
I remember this as well. It was the fact that they kept doing it several times in the same drive, over and over. It was so obvious.
In Shreveport, everyone was cramping. On both teams
Bud was not telling anyone to fake an injury. Players were cramping on both sides all night, he simply wanted to get Stroman out of the game.
Somewhere around the same time we did call a timeout to slow Tulsa down. I've always been in favor of timeouts for the defensive side. Seems like we give a pass to offenses for calling timeouts when the play clock is running down, but never for defenses to get set properly.
I also hated when Tulsa substituted but did not give the defense time to do so. All that happened was a replay of the down. I understand that is really the officials' fault for not impeding the snap, but to me there should be a penalty if the offense is able to run players out and snap the ball before the official can intervene. Not simply a do-over.
Towards that, I found myself noticing the speed at which the officials were placing the ball for Tulsa on offense and then quick-stepping into position to allow the hurry-up.
Not crying foul; 2 I don't remember seeing officials moving so quickly and accommodating a hurry-up offense before.
the officials got wrapped up in the comeback and allowed it to create an enticing game
whatever, we won. Next year, we'll be the ones running defenses ragged
I'm not 100% certain of that. I think Fuente is about to walk into more of a conditioning situation than he was aware of. We're one of the only programs in P5 football that didn't do two-a-days. Our offense was gassed in the fourth quarter against Tulsa, and it showed. I think it's going to take a season to get the offense as a whole in shape to run Fuente's offense for four quarters.
It seemed to me that Tulsa was in worse shape than VT, and they are used to that tempo.
I dunno. Their late surge in the 4th looked like they had gas left in the tank.
I have definitely seen officials hurry their movements up if the offense is obviously trying to go hurry up, mostly because I remember thinking to myself that the refs look so much slower than the players while trying to go quick.
I thought that Bud was signalling Stroman to stay down since he was hurt so we wouldn't have had to burn a time out which we did I think.
It seems to me that Stroman was indeed cramping. Maybe Bud was telling them to fake it, but I would like to think that he noticed Stroman was not 100%. Who knows for sure, but Tulsa had a couple players cramping as well. It was a long game and a hot one for this time of year.
I'm pretty sure we ended up taking a TO anyway, so even if he was faking, it isn't like we gained much of an advantage.
For those of you who have played or coached recently, this isn't "asking a player to fake an injury." Coaches teach players that if they are injured to the extent they need to be replaced to go down/stay down on the field. The reason is simply a nuance of the rules. If a player is hurt and attempts to run off the field as his replacement runs on the field, and the injured player can't run off the field before the snap, it becomes a too many men on the field penalty. This is a teaching point that has been reiterated by every coach I had since I started playing junior varsity football back in 1992. It isn't clock management and opportunism. It is simply making sure that if a player has a legitimate injury, that they do not aggravate it trying to get off the field and potentially cause a penalty.
It is a disincentive to fake an injury because if a trainer runs on to the field (which they do when a player stays down) then that player is required to leave the field for a minimum of one play. Given the extremely limited amount of depth available to Foster in the secondary following the injury to Donovan Riley, it is laughable to think that he would WANT a stoppage at the expense of having one of his corners removed from the field when Tulsa was driving and had a passing down and distance situation.
I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I find the tenor of this thread laughable. If you look at the depth situation in the secondary and still think that the Stroman situation was Foster gamesmanship, then I can't take you seriously as someone who understands the game of football.
Look closely at the situation: Tulsa had five viable receiving options on every play. They are running a hurry up. Donovan Riley is injured. Desmond Frye, I am told, was hurt, although I have not seen him on any injured list. Foster had Facyson, Alexander, Edmunds, and Stroman available at corner. Reynolds was playing free safety often while Clark played both free and rover. Greene, and Alleyne are the only non-walk on defensive backs that were dressed, neither of which have corner experience. Even to have a player miss one rep for gamesmanship reasons is a potential risk for a big offensive play when you have so little experienced depth in the secondary.
Like I said, EVERY coach I have had told us that if we were hurt and couldn't play the next play, stay down. I got my butt chewed in a scrimmage versus FUMA when I came off the field limping with a tweaked ankle. The coaching staff doesn't have enough time to get your replacement on the field (especially if they are tuned out, which back up OL tend to be) if the player isn't ready, or the switch could result in a delay of game, too many men, or the use of a timeout.
Well said. If a player is hurt and needs to be substituted, go down and allow that to happen as it should. No reason to make the situation worse for your team, risk aggrevating the injury, getting penalized, or any number of negative things when all you have to do is say "ref I'm hurt and I need to get off the field".
Yeah, I agree with that. Whether the injury was fake or not wasn't my main point, my point was that Bud told him to go down. Clearly.
And that's gamesmanship and was probably directed before the game. If you need a play off, sit down.
Did you rub some 'Tussin on it, and get your ass back out there?
Add some water, shake it up......MOOOOORRRE TUSSIN!
This escalated quickly...
signaling DL to get (down) ready
Maybe Stroman's shoe just came off and he didn't have time to get it back on...
In order for a game to stop for injury, the player has to go down. This is true for all levels of sports (except European soccer, where if they stopped the game for every player down, it would be a 5-hour affair). My guess is that players were cramping and whatnot but trying to stay on the field. Aware of the importance of each play at that stage of the game, Bud wanted guys who were 100% to be playing. If Bud saw someone limping, he would tell them to get down. Not only does this allow him to get fresh players on the field but it also allows the rest of the defense to rest.