ESPN came out with the all-time top 100 list of NBA players. Their top 10 was:
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Shaquille O'neal
8. Tim Duncan
7. Bill Russell
6. Larry Bird
5. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Magic Johnson
3. Lebron James
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabar
1. Michael Jordan
I mostly agree with the top 10, however, I don't agree with the order. All of these players played in different era's, and all are great in their own way, so it's hard to compare. Also, I'm 22 years old and didn't start caring for sports until the early 2000's, so I may be a bit bias. Here's my top 10...
10. Wilt Chamberlain
9. Larry Bird
8. Duncan
7. Shaq
6. Kobe Bryant (takes Hakeem's spot in top 10)
5. Bill Russell
4. Lebron James
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabar
2. Magic Johnson
1. Michael Jordan
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankalltime/greatest-players-ever
Comments
Where the hell is Kobe? You cannot say he doesn't crack that list. Dude is a force of nature.
Exactly what I thought. For him to be ranked 12th is ridiculous. Although, I guess ESPN actually took those 05-07 Laker teams into consideration when making the list. For some reason nobody acknowledges those years...
I would argue that all of those top 10 guys are "forces of nature".
I'm OK with him being 12th. He was nowhere close to the defender that Jordan was, which bumps him down that list.
You can pick up Shaq or Kobe. Who do you pick? Kobe, hands down, every time.
Really? I seem to recall the person you didn't pick being Finals MVP of the three they won together...
Championships: Kobe 5 - Shaq 4. I'll call that a wash.
All Stars: Kobe 18 - Shaq 15. Adv. Kobe.
Finals MVP: Kobe 2 - Shaq 3. We can give Shaq the advantage since they played those together.
NBA First team appearances: Kobe 11 (27 over all teams) - Shaq 8 (17 over all teams). Adv Kobe
NBA Scoring Champs: Tied at 2.
MVP Awards: Tied at 1.
Olympic Golds: Kobe 2 - Shaq 1
Roughly 20 year careers. I'm taking Kobe every time.
Heck no. Dominant center > Dominant guard.
I disagree with this - I'd take prime Shaq over prime Kobe every time.
While Kobe is great, I'd take Shaq, because there are players who can at least stop Kobe every once in a while. Shaq was completely unguardable in his prime
HACK- A- SHAQ: Best defense ever!
IMO the only people Kobe could knock off the top 10 are Lebron or Hakeem. I think I'd probably put Lebron at 9, Kobe at 10, Hakeem at 11, but that's just my opinion.
EDIT: I also think Isiah Thomas should also be in that 8-12 range. Arguably the best pound-for-pound player in NBA history.
I agree more with your personal list, particularly with the top spots. I strongly believe if anyone has a strong GOAT argument other than Jordan, it's Magic.
I'm very close friends with a guy whose dad played in the NBA from 1984-1992. We've had many discussions with his dad about the NBA, and he's got plenty of stories from his playing days. If you ask him who he'd pick if he had the #1 overall pick in a draft consisting of all the greats he'll tell you he'd pick Magic Johnson over Jordan, no doubt.
Exactly, he made everyone around him better. He could have been an unstoppable scorer, but he didn't need to, because he created so much offense for his teammates.
Jordan was a much more dynamic player though... part of it for me is "who would you rather watch?" Having seen both in their prime, if Jordan and the Bulls were on one channel, and Magic and the Lakers were on the other, I'd choose Jordan and the Bulls every time. Magic would show you a lot of skill, but with Jordan there was a chance every game that he would do something that would make your head explode.
I would have Kareem ahead of both of them. People under 40 only remember the old Kareem, but he was a totally dominant player in an era of good centers. His sky hook was the most unstoppable shot in the history of the game. He was a legit 7'3" and athletic; there isn't a center in the game right now that would have a chance against him.
Kobe, currently, should most definitely be ranked ahead of LeBron. Maybe not in 5 years, but certainly for now.
Eh Lebron James does things that no one as ever seen before. As far as a basketball player goes Lebron will top this list out by the end of his career.
I disagree. I hated MJ when he played, but dude was a damned beast. And he played in a different/more physical era of the NBA. Lebron is great, but I would put some oft he guys in the 80's and 90's ahead of James.
Yeah, I think that LeBron will be comfortably in the number 2 spot by the end of his career. Whether he challenges MJ's 1 spot or not depends on how many more rings he gets.
IMO it's more than just that. MJ changed professional athletics forever. Before MJ, # of championships wasn't as large of a deciding factor in discussions like these. Before MJ, sports analysts did not require you to have a "clutch gene" to be considered elite. Before MJ, the idea of an athlete having his own brand (not just his own shoe, just just his own line, but his own brand) was unheard of.
From our perception as viewers/fans, MJ brought the game to a new level and changed the way we watch games and judge players. Lebron could be more skilled than MJ, but I don't think he'll be remembered as fondly, simply because he did not change the game the way MJ did.
I think that, 30 years down the road, Steph Curry has a better shot of being mentioned in the same breathe as MJ than Lebron does. JMO.
I might be wrong but I'm going to guess you're somewhere between 25 and 40?
You don't think the number of championships didn't factor into Wilt vs Russell discussions in the 60s? You think Reggie Jackson was called Mr. October in the 70s because he liked autumn weather? You think Joe Namath was put into the hall of fame because of his 50% career competition and winning percentage and not for coming up huge as a massive underdog in his lone Super Bowl win - the win that basically opened the door for the NFL-AFL merger ? Do you honestly think Michael Jordan brought the game "to a new level" or that with Bird-Magic-MJ perhaps the game simply became more big guard-small forward centric that made for fun nightly highlights on a new thing called ESPN? Do you recall that weekday NBA finals games were shown on tape delay at 11:30pm...FRIGGIN' TAPE DELAY AT 11:30PM...for a number of years until Magic & Bird - not Jordan - came along and forced the network to reconsider?
Jordan was, without a doubt, a great player. And I'll give you that he played a huge role in advancing the commercialization of the off-the-field part of sports. But with the coming changes in communications and marketing that we can't even imagine right now, Jordon's contributions in that arena are going to look quaint 20 years from now.
I'll respectfully say that I personally don't think LeBron has done anything MJ didn't
Mike couldn't play all 5 positions.
LeBron might be able to guard nearly everyone on the floor, but he can't actually play center.
Nah, LeBron is just Magic Light
Magic's career stats: 19.5 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 11.2 apg
LeBron's career stats: 27.2 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 6.9 apg
No. Especially if you talk about their defense as well.
Olajuwon was better than Shaq.
And for everyone complaining about no Kobe, who are you taking off? Duncan, not Kobe, is the best player of that generation.
You're right, the eras are very different. For instance, those nasty boy Detroit teams that won back to back titles probably wouldn't have done as well today. Half of their team would get kicked out for flagrant fouls. They would hard foul then and maybe get a personal. Its a bit different now.
KD and Curry may end up being top 25 all time when it's all said and done, but I disagree with them being higher than guys like D-Wade (3 time champ, 12 time all star, Curry is just a 3 time all star with one ring with number 2 likely coming soon and Durant is a 7 time). In fact, I think D-Wade should be top 20-25. Other than that, pretty solid list. I agree with the comments above the Kobe could be top 10, but you can argue him vs. Duncan for days. It's so even in terms of accolades.
I feel like people forget how good of Finals performance D-Wade had back in 2006, averaging 35 points a game bringing your team back from being down 2-0 is stuff of legend.
For those that compare players from different era's to each other, example: "Ehhh Lebron wouldn't be near the player in the 1980's". Most people only compare today's players to earlier years. How about flip the comparison. How would Magic Johnson do defensively against today's lightning quick guards? How would half-court playing big-men such as Olajuwon, Karl Malone, Abdul-Jabar, etc. do in today's fast pace, run-&-gun offenses? Think about those comparisons well. It's only fair.
Roy Hibbert gave the champion Miami Heat (with Bron, Wade, and Bosh) SIGNIFICANT problems in the playoffs... ROY HIBBERT. I think all those guys would be just fine in this era
today it's less physical (more foul calls which leads to more free throws) those players in the 80's-90's would be scoring more (or would have scored more in their time with similar rules)
Also would have gotten scored on a lot more...
Today's run and gun offenses? Please. Go back and take a look at the game scores from the 70s - before the 3 pt shot and you couldn't put your hands on someone.
A guy like Kareem (who was a 3"-4" taller, more athletic version of Tim Duncan) or Wilt would have been just fine going up and down the court against a bunch of 6'9" forwards masquerading as centers.
I know I'm old, but I really think that Wilt Chamberlain has to be in the top 3 at least....Here's a quick justification from a quick "Wiki" search....
Chamberlain holds numerous NBA records in scoring, rebounding and durability categories. He is the only player to score 100 points in a single NBA game or average more than 40 and 50 points in a season. He also won seven scoring, nine field goal percentage, and eleven rebounding titles, and led the league in assists once. Chamberlain is the only player in NBA history to average at least 30 points and 20 rebounds per game in a season, a feat he accomplished seven times. He is also the only player to average at least 30 points and 20 rebounds per game over the entire course of his NBA career.
I used to hear my grandpa rave about Wilt, because they both went to Overbrook High in Philly.....And check out this high school group of stats....amazing!....
He was a frail child, nearly dying of pneumonia in his early years and missing a whole year of school as a result. In his early years Chamberlain was not interested in basketball, because he thought it was "a game for sissies". Instead, he was an avid track and field athlete: as a youth, he high jumped 6 feet, 6 inches, ran the 440 yards in 49.0 seconds and the 880 yards in 1:58.3, put the shot 53 feet, 4 inches, and broad jumped 22 feet. But according to Chamberlain, "basketball was king in Philadelphia", so he eventually turned to the sport. Because Chamberlain was a very tall child, already measuring six feet at age 10 and six feet 11 inches when he entered Philadelphia's Overbrook High School. Unreal!
Wait, he AVERAGED 50 points over a season? That's absurd.
Yup! Wild, huh?!
I, just, wow. Imagine that today. A guy that drops half a hundred day in day out and the media attention he'd get.
And averaged 25 rebounds a game that year as well...
Some of Wilt's highlights are absurd.
You cannot convince me that Wilt the Stilt isn't #1. 100 point game before the three point line was invented, never fouled out of a game in his career, could dunk his free throws, AND is the most notorious ladies man of all time.
LOOK AT THIS LIST OF NBA RECORDS:
http://www.nba.com/encyclopedia/wilts_records.html
To me, sleeping with 20,000 different women (what he claimed in a book) isn't something to brag about haha.
I don't think it's a pro or a con. Live and let live. Unless one of them was your sister or daughter. Then you kill that man.
1.2 women a day, everyday since he was 15, is an impressive feat simply based on the stamina that would require. Even more so when you consider that he was playing dominant basketball for a significant number of those days. Sounds exhausting.
I most whole-heartedly concur! :).... with Highty Tighty's post....
Yeah, Wilt is the best, but when people make these lists they add TEAM criteria like championships to water down individual accomplishments.
Wilt and Russell are hurt because so little footage exists of their exploits.
Let's try and fix that.
Dude is totally dominant inside. Great body control and strength and just palms the shit out of the ball.
Nice video! I agree with you, Wilt HAS to be #1.... any questions, just read the following bio of Chamberlain from the NBA's own website....It pretty much says all you need to know.
http://www.nba.com/history/players/chamberlain_bio.html
Anyone who thinks Wilt wouldn't own guys like Andre Drummond or Lemarcus Cousins or Dwight Howard is delusional.
And Kareem too.
Read Bill Simmons' book of basketball. he made a very compelling case for Russell at #2
I'm a Celtics fan, homegrown in the northeast and from the generation that only heard of the legend of Larry Bird and Bill Russell. Grew up watching MJ,
It seems worthless debating the top 10, since everyone's opinion will reflect where they are from and who they watched play. Having been 25 something years too late to see Bill Russell, I still think he deserves the top spot.
The man went 11/13, not on a good night of free-throw shooting, but in NBA titles.
He Jackie Moon'd it for a few years, serving as player-coach, after Red retired and before Tommy Heinsohn took over. He did this during a really tumultuous time for race relations and I believe he was technically the first black coach ever in the NBA.
He and Wilt Chamberlain went head to head for years, and they may be the two most dominant big men of all time. The difference being, Bill Russell won 11 NBA championships in only 13 seasons, only 2 for Wilt. 11 titles is something we will never see replicated again in any major sport.
Bill Simmons is the GOAT. Screw ESPN
10) Duncan - Best Power Forward of all time, long career, never was WOW dominant
9) Shaq - Nine based of pure talent, if he worked harder would have been higher up
8) Bird - Short career compared to the other greats, in his prime he was amazing
7) Kobe - Long career, solid contender for a championship caliber team in 3 different decades
6) Wilt - The stats were unbelievable, but was always a "me first" player
5) Kareem - Most points ever, long career, the top 5 can be shuffled around easily in my opinion
4) Lebron - Has been one of the 3 most dominant players in the league for 13 years, already has the stats
3) Russell - Championships on championships, a true team player
2) Magic - The first of his kind in the league, knew how to win better than Lebron hence the ranking
1) Jordan - No justification needed
Since we're talking about greatest individual players, I'd think your second point matters very little, and your first point very much.
Disagree...shouldn't the best player on your team elevate the rest of the team to greater heights (i.e. championships). Wilt played for stats.
Wilt balled out. Period. That's what is expected of a player. It's not his job to build a complete roster. That's on the GM. It's not his job to create an offense more complex than "fuck it, give the ball to Wilt." That's on the coach. Arguably, he did elevate the rosters he was on. Teams he played on missed the playoffs exactly once. His teams consistently made deep runs. Really hard to argue that they'd have done the same without him there shattering record books. So I stand by my original point. To determine the greatness of a player, look at his individual stats and achievements, not ring count. Christ, Scottie Pippin has 6 rings. Ain't anybody talking about him in the GOAT conversation.
I'm not disagreeing with your list order, but Magic played with multiple Hall of Famers, so I don't know if you can count that as him knowing how to win or just being on really, really good teams. In fact I think LeBron and Hakeem are the only ones in ESPN's top 10 that made it to the finals without any HoF/potential HoF players as teammates.
In Cleveland Lebron didn't have a team worth a plug nickel, but in Miami he did have D. Wade. I get your point though. It takes more than one great player to win championships.
Dwade isn't a potential hall of fame player? Chris Bosh wasn't a perennial all-star?
I love Lebron, but let's not act like he was playing with scrubs in Miami.
Of course they are. He didn't have them during his first stint in Cleveland, though. I didn't say that every team he went to the finals with didn't have legendary players. What I was trying to say was he's one of two players on the list that managed to get to the finals on a team with no notable other players (aka Cleveland when they lost to the Spurs).
That lineup of Boobie Gibson, Larry Hughes, Bron, Drew Gooden, and Illgauskas was atrocious.
I would agree with that. Additionally, if he could have pulled off the upset in last year's finals by himself, that would have been the most impressive finals win of anyone on this list.
10. Isiah Thomas
9. Lebron
8. Tim Duncan
7. Larry Bird
6. Shaq
5. Bill Russel
4. Magic Johnson
3. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabar
1. Michael Jordan
I think that Kareem, MJ and Wilt are the clear top 3, and I think there's a (relatively) large gap between those three in their prime and Magic in his prime. Kareem and MJ are sort of a tie, but I gave the edge to MJ because he changed the game in so many more ways. Wilt's right up there, but I knocked him for not winning as many championships as the other two. Maybe unfair.
Thomas needs to be in the discussion. The Magic, Bird, Jordon era had so many greats that played against each other, you wonder how they would do in their own era like Kobe and James have basically had. You had the Pistons, Lakers, Celtics, Rockets, Trailblazers, and Bulls that just battled it out. I know I am biased to the 70's-90's hoops (I can't watch todays ballerina garbage), but those guys did what they did while basically playing hockey rules.
And just to show how BS all this is, everyone goes on about Olajuwon an ONeal which were some of the best all time, but not one mention of Karl Malone. All three had 18-19 season careers, yet Malone had almost 10,000 MORE points, over 1,000 MORE rebounds, and 2,000 MORE assists. The dude averaged a double double for his career yet was not Mr Flashy and gets no love (the life of a mailman i guess...)
Comparing players of different eras is hard enough, but as you age, the romanticizing of players is almost impossible to overcome. That is not to knock anyone, its just tough. Somebody on FB the other day was saying Steph Curry is already and all-time great, and somebody replied with Isiah Thomas's 1st three year stats side by side and Thomas was better in almost every category.
Malone didn't win a title. That's the main difference. It's not a talent issue, just an accolades issue. Malone is definitely top 15 on my list.
i stopped reading after the slurping on kobe.
My top 5 are:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Lebron James
3. Kareem-Abdul Jabbar
4. Magic Johnson
5. Kobe Bryant
On the Lebron v. Jordan debate I will say this, whenever Lebron captures 10 straight scoring titles, averages 30 points for his career, wins defensive player of the year, goes six for six in the finals with 6 finals MVPs, and plays for the best team of all time then he may be in consideration for best player of all time until then Jordan is the GOAT.
I'm a HUGE Lebron fan and I feel the same way about this. There will never be another Jordan. Never. But, Lebron can, and I think he will be #2 on this list by the time he retires.
Kobe should be on every top ten list, if not top five. He was unreal in his prime. Also won 5 championships. This is coming from a Miami Heat fan, as well. I experienced the rivalry with the Lakers when Shaq first joined the Heat and then when LeBron left Cleveland for Miami and the discussions came up as to who was better: LeBron or Kobe.
Oscar Robertson-- I think top 10 is solid but the Big O probably should be in there over Duncan.