He had entered North Korea as a tourist with the intention "to destroy the country's unity", said KCNA, which added that the US government had "tolerated and manipulated" him.
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Obligatory first comment: obviously North Korea is an adversarial country. DO NOT fill this thread with political commentary as we have seen before in "current events" topics.
Let us all hope for the safe return of this student. Even UVA students don't deserve to be in the gulags of North Korea.
So we can't have an angry mob then? You're no fun.
Debatable.
Just kidding, hope this kid comes back safe and sound.
True, but I think I'd rather be in the gulag in North Korea, than go through my whole life with a name like Warmbier.
If there was ever a country I'd be okay with just wiping off the face of the planet, is North Korea.
Eh, it's more their leadership. The people aren't necessarily bad, they are just misled.
I honestly believe the people of North Korea are so completely indoctrinated, I don't see a path back for them toward reunification with the South. I agree, they aren't bad people, but could that culture ever reintegrate with western civilization?
It may not be instant, but it is possible. I feel like it would be just like Berlin after they tore down the wall.
Indoctrinated? Most likely, but when people are hungry and unhappy they look for a way out.
The tour agency looks to be based in Xian, not Beijing, if that makes any difference. Were there other westerners in this group? What singled this young man out? Was he approached by someone, either for help or as a setup? When the North Koreans want something they are not loathe to create their own bargaining chips. But then again who is this guy? Did he attempt to head out somewhere verboten, innocently or not so? More information is needed to know if he's in deep do-do or not. I hope he gets home soon whatever.
I believe I read that he was over there spouting off about Thomas Jefferson and the NK watchdogs heard about this wonderful American revolutionary and promptly arrested him for subversion of govt.
Activism... it'll get after ya
There are many, many North Koreans in South Korea who defected and are living fully immersed. Some very successful cases. It is a huge culture shock but they would get past it, and are doing so. Having food in your stomach opens your eyes quicker than anything.
NPR had a story on North Korean defectors and what their lives were like after settling into South Korean culture. It was pretty eye opening, the things the defectors would mention as being what they liked most about South Korea. Like food being available at the market all days of the month and being able to read something not published by the government.
I know there's plenty of people who have gotten out. I'm not saying I think everyone is fully indoctrinated. But the people who got out are people who were willing to take significant risk to get out. I'd guess there are millions of North Koreans who have just accepted their lot. The people who got out wanted out. I can't even imagine what the path to reintegration would be like for people who don't want out.
Though the biggest threat to Korean reunification might just be the generation gap. Younger South Koreans just don't have it as a priority. They have no memory of a unified Korea, and they don't identify with their cousins in the North. When that generation assumes power, I think any hope of a reunification becomes significantly less likely.
NPR is definitely right about the food. It's the first thing any North Korean defectors mention when they get interviewed. The other thing is all of the advanced technology that everyone has access to. Private ownership is wicked cool to them.
Not sure if the other points you made are from NPR but not exactly how I know it.
For sure, those that wanted out, got out. But the "want" could have stemmed from the fact that the family has no food and the elder son/daughter simply has no choice if they want their younger siblings and parents to live on. They "want" to get out but the "must" get out. Others "want" to get out because their family in North Korea dies and the only family member they have is someone who got out before. Without knowing even if they are alive they "want" to get out because they "need" to get out. The acceptance of risk is not so much a conscious choice rather more of an absence of choice.
My experience with the younger generation is also different. I would say the majority of South Koreans all want a unification under South Korea rule, including every generation. The younger generations may not have the direct ties to the war but I think every young Korean still wants it to happen. If anything I think you will see the younger generation more adept at progressing unification than the elder generations that still have the deep rooted resentment and hate.
The generational difference in attitudes on unification is supported by research. Millenial South Koreans are less likely to respond that reunification is a major concern to them, and they consider North Koreans to be a significantly different people than their fellow South Koreans. Not necessarily that the younger generation doesn't care at all about reunification, but not nearly so much as their parents.
This wasn't the source article I originally read on this topic (no clue what my original source was; found it on reddit and didn't save it), but it's close enough that it might as well have been: Link
I think we are dancing around the same point.
I agree completely that there is apathy and disinterest. When asked about unification they are less concerned with it because they have less ties to it. However, my belief is that as that generation moves into the leadership they will be faced with the same issues as their parents. Just because they don't care, doesn't mean that crazy, fat kid over the wall doesn't. And so they will become more adept at handling that issue than their parents, because that apathy will distance them from the deeply rooted hate and afford them to approach it differently. I don't believe turning the cold shoulder or flat out dropping the issue of unification will ever be an option. And as North Korea becomes more desperate over the next, let's say, decade when the younger generation starts to move into leadership their hand will be forced to deal with it more than ever before.
Thanks for the link. I think the interpretation of what those stats are saying is a bit too interpretive but no doubt telling. I did a bit more reading on other articles and found this one as well, among many others: https://newrepublic.com/article/92781/korean-unification
And cringed when reading this bit:
perfectly exemplifies the apathy. But the point is not lost. If it does happen it will be a crazy, crazy burden. And if/when it does happen China and USA will be the biggest players there grabbing the economic booming of building the nation up.
I think the problem is becoming that with every successive generation, any diplomatic resolution for unification becomes significantly less likely. You already have a full generation of North Koreans who have no direct knowledge of how the Soviet Union propped up Kim Il-sung for political reasons, and another generation coming up under that one. Whereas early on, North Koreans might have rolled their eyes and gone along with the cult of personality that developed in the government for fear of persecution, you now have millions of North Koreans who actually buy into the Glorious Leader mantra.
Meanwhile, the fire of reunification is dying in the South. As the passion to work toward reunification dwindles, to me that means the only reasonable course to expect is reunification through the catastrophic collapse of North Korea, which is inevitable, but also the absolute worst way to go about reunification.
I think you're 100% right that the younger generation of South Koreans will be more efficient in approaching reunification. It's just a shame that their approach will almost certainly be as a disaster contingency plan, a bracing against the inevitable rather than reaching toward reunification through diplomacy.
When it happens, it's going to be awful for a whole lot of people.
If you have Netflix, give Propaganda Game a watch. Good documentary on the lengths the government goes through to put on a smoke and mirrors show for foreigners who visit.
You obviously have not spend enough time in the sandbox. They has a bunch of rich fanatics, much worse than a lame duck dictator
So I gave you a leg. No one should be downvoting this. It's a comical opinion and does not hurt the TKP opinion.
That's an awful thing to say. North Korea produced the world's greatest golfer of all time as well as the world's first anti-hangover hooch.
First, if you're a citizen from any Western country, especially the US, AVOID NORTH KOREA. This country is led by a guy who has zero qualms with brutally killing off his advisers and associates, and those are the people he likes. He hates us. Why even take that chance?
Secondly, is there more a fitting description on how we all deal with UVa students than "tolerated"?
Unless of course you played in the NBA and are quite the freak. Then you may be invited for sleepovers with said brutal
dictasterer uhm dictator.You mean glorious leader.
I don't care who you are, this just seems like a dumb idea.
I mean, when the tour website openly states we are an adventure tour operator that provides "budget tours to destinations your mother would rather you stayed away from". you have to know its a bad idea at a certain level.
But hey, their FAQ page says the following:
his face sucks. and what the fuck kind of clap is that?
Going to North Korea is really stupid. I hope the kid gets home soon, but WHY go there? It is about as dumb as those hikers that wanted to hike the Iraq/Iran border a few years ago. WHY????
Oh no, I hope he comes back home safely.
Can Kim Jong Un's BFF, Dennis Rodman, make a call and pull some strings here?
The "God has another plan" comment reminded me of this:
Good news - a TKPer has the ability to resolve the issue. Egbert can send some of his Coldbeer to Kim Jong-un in exchange for Warmbier.
Not a bad idea but, a poor trade for me.
I'd rather send each and every individual a good cold beer so they can see what they are missing.
"What's the worst thing that could happen?"-UVA kid
NORK is a disaster, and China owns it all. I pity the poor souls who are slaves to that state, and anyone caught up in another one of Fatty Un's little dramas.
I hear the golf is nice in NK. Lots of par 18 courses.
I hope he gets released quickly.
Edit: are we really to believe what the KCNA says though? Theres more to the story that we're not getting here.
Hope the kid is okay
What is the best case scenario when your plan is to enter North Korea as a tourist?
Get banned from the country before entering.
To get back out I would assume
"Virginia Tech doesn't play any sports in there, right? Oh good, how bad can the beatings be then?" - UVa kid before crossing the border
logged in (and it's been quite a while) to upvote that one, skahdoosh.
This is just an odd story. Still trying to connect the dots. Anyway, hope he returns safely. Regardless of where he attends school, he's an American in territory where the residents and leaders aren't quite fond of us. Praying for his return.
Countries like this have very strict rules about what you can and cannot do. You have an official keeper who follows you around and makes sure you see only what you should. If you attempt to leave the group they can pick you up. In the end, unless you really really want to see the country it is best to avoid it. If you try to spread messages about religion, freedom, kim is not god they will lock you up fast. If he was try to spread religion or democracy I hope he gets out fast. If he was being a dummy he can stay a bit.
The decision of a UVA student to "tour" North Korea, hope he gets released soon, but man what was he thinking.....
Just saw this guy
was forced to read this statementpoured out his heart and soul to best Korea to try and gain forgiveness for his terrible crimes and get back home.that's just sickening...
That's truly disgusting.
I wonder what really happened?
I do hope he returns home safely.
North Korea sentences U.Va. student to 15 years in prison
Well, this is unfortunate.
Kid steals a banner as a trophy, and ends up becoming the trophy himself.
Wonder what it will cost the U.S. to get him back?
If Trump comes to power, then World War 3. /s
ehhh....I think this probably breaches that politics line
Agreed. With the political season in full swing, and the presidential race seemingly narrowing down, these types of things will be on everyone's mind. Please, everyone, avoid bringing any of that here. Political humor requires a very keen sense of timing and phrasing. Let's please leave all political jokes and commentary elsewhere. And be judicious in the OT stuff that you post; certain news events will often trigger very specific commentary that should be left off of TKP.
We have a history here of intelligently debating history and law, which can be very interesting and highlights the depth of knowledge in the TKP user base. That stuff is awesome. But let's avoid specific reference to candidates, parties, etc.
Thanks
ObamaTrudeau...Is that allowed?
South Park references and Canada jokes seem like the appropriate routes for political humor on a board such as this one. Leg for you, good sir!
GOD THIS IS ALL JAMES BUCHANAN'S FAULT!
trade him for 5 Guantanamo prisoners? lol I kid
I feel terrible for this kid and his family, but this definitely sounds like your typical college bro decided to do typical college bro things in North Korea.
Mistake #1: GOING TO NORTH KOREA
Mistake #2: trespassing in a restricted area in NORTH KOREA
Mistake #3: stealing banner from said restricted area IN. NORTH. KOREA.
The punishment FAR outweighs the crime, but usually when terrible events like this happen, it's from a domino effect of mistakes/failures. I sincerely hope he is reunited with his family sooner than later
That kid has certainly lived enough nightmare already to cover whatever prank he might have done. They did barter his crime down from espionage to theft from the state, which probably saved his life, so at least that's good. Now the State Department will likely have to barter something to get him back at some point.
Sad for the student and his family and friends.
Big reminder to the rest of us of how important it is to maintain and limit government's power. We have so much freedom that we assume a lot about the nature of it. Sometimes we get so caught up in complaining about what we have a right to that we forget how good we've got it.
This is also something to remember when we're debating the balance between security and individual rights/privacy. There is a line there, and there's always a compelling reason being put forward to give up some of it. Once you give it up, you rarely get it back.
Actually I think Mistake #1 was attending LOLUVA.
15 years of hard labor for stealing a poster is harsh punishment and an absolute disgusting move by North Korea, I don't care who you are or what school he went to - this kid needs to come home.
Its North Korea. They don't give a shit what the rest of the world thinks. This country is led by a guy who punishes his friends for stepping out of line by placing them in a firing range and using them as a live moving target practice for mortar shells.
Rule #1: Don't go to North Korea
Rule #2: DON'T FUCKING GO TO NORTH KOREA
Rule #3: If you must go to North Korea, for the love of God, don't look in the wrong direction or step one inch out of line.
RULE 4: DON"T SING THIS SONG
I probably know 50+ people, many Americans, that have traveled to North Korea and not been arrested. You get told the rules when you book travel, before you leave, when you arrive and literally reminded every day you are there.
It sucks. Totally disgusting. Also completely avoidable.
This shocks me, in neither a positive or negative way. I find it fascinating, I guess I am less well-traveled and versed in the "Why people want to go to North Korea" concept.
I live in the area, so it is more common for people to travel there from here
and, this is why most people go:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2379377/North-Korea-puts-mother-...
I think I've seen this superbowl ad before.
Very cool ad.
Braveheart meets beer ad.
I'm not going to lie that was pretty impressive
So that was pretty sweet!
So most of the people you know who have gone to North Korea are attending that specific event each year? This still fascinates me, it is also really cool how diverse the TKP community is when it comes to location and such.
Yeah I would say nearly all, if not entirely, of the people I know go to see this. Even 5 of my employees have gone. 2 Australians went first, then next year an American and 2 Brits went.
There's a video that the AP posted today of him being paraded around after his sentencing and everything seems a bit strange. To name a few: he's limp, the officials run him into the door and then can't decide which way they're going, and the doors almost look fake.
Looks staged. Strange that only two cops are toting him around - with no leader or additional people escorting.
totally staged. From the different lighting, to the apparent transition to small hallways to large brightly lit corridors and his almost purposefully defeated rag doll walk and constant shots to "powerful" buildings. This seems more like a publicity stunt to give the appearance that you don't mess with NK attitude while trying to get the UN and US react in any way.
Now the kid shouldn't have stepped out of line in North Korea but I don't think they would do this dog and pony show for one of their own in they did something similar.
Definitely staged. Looks like a poorly made movie, including bad acting and a cheap set.
"I was used... and manipulated." By who exactly...? I at least feel some sympathy for the guy but you've certainly gotta know that North Korea doesn't' exactly do business like any "normal" country would. That's something you learn BEFORE you go....right? Absolutely doesn't make it right on North Korea's part but cmon now dude...
Well, the honest, impartial, and yet still generously lenient judge in Best Korea told the boy he would be released with a reprimand. The lad started celebrating, and the Unster took offense when (he thought) he heard "The Juche is loose." So, fifteen years.
That, or His Corpulence is just jealous that he can't pull off a seersucker suit and ascot in the Best Korean winter.
totally forced statement as well. Although he is a UVA student and therefore unlikable from the get go, we do need to get him back. I mean for a "prestigious" university that's a pretty dumb move. 15 years of forced labor will probably kill him anyways if he's not used to a rough life from the start. Also, Un seem a little more unstable than his father so......
Yea - totally forced statement. I mean, he didn't reference Jefferson, or say the word "grounds." That's how one knows it is forced.
The zima withdrawal is probably setting in
If I'm hearing the reports correctly, he stole a banner? He stole a banner, from North Korea. HE STOLE SOMETHING FROM NORTH KOREA! How stupid must you be?!?! Does he bring drugs to Singapore too?
He doesn't deserve what he's getting, but he should get slapped by our State Department for doing something so stupid.
"I never, never should have allowed myself to be lured by the United States administration to commit a crime in this country," he said tearfully as he begged for forgiveness.
"I wish that the United States administration never manipulate people like myself in the future to commit crimes against foreign countries. I entirely beg you, the people and government of the DPRK, for your forgiveness. Please! I made the worst mistake of my life!"
Made him say all that nonsense and still locked his ass up for 15 years. F'ing North Korea man.
Good, now replace that with LOLUVA.
Imagine how much worse the sentence would've been if he hadn't said all that nonsense.
I still think that there's hope for his release. I think they made the sentence so severe, in part, to create a bargaining chip for future negotiations on sanctions relief from the USA. I heard an interview yesterday with a lady ( a Korean-American, I think) who'd been sentenced to 12 years hard labor for something similar. They ended up releasing her after about 140 days in prison. Of course 4+ months in a North Korean prison is not a walk in the park, but there is precedent to hope that this guy won't actually have to serve this entire ridiculous sentence.
Then again, he did go to LOLUVA.
He's free, apparently.
Yes, but he has apparently been in a coma for a year as well. This whole situation was so stupid and a tragedy and was completely avoidable.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/university-of-virginia-student-otto...
Holy shit, I didn't know he was in a coma. That's fucked up.
Personally, i think the botulism story sounds like a crock of shit. This kid didn't deserve any of this. Who knows what they did to him over there. What a horribly sad story
No no I trust NK completely. It makes sense that he spontaneously broke out in a disease that gave him a coma shortly after being arrested. Happens all the time.
You know, botulism, the disease that is almost, without exception, liked to improper food preparation and preservation or is intentionally administered. Sounds legit.
He certainly didn't deserve it but he should have understood the environment he was in. It's a bunch of bullshit rules but everyone, especially Americans, should be aware of where they are and how little being an American actually means there.
I agree 100%... you just don't know what is going to happen when you go over there. I was even a little afraid when I visited Seoul, South Korea being so close to the border
South Korea is fine. Sure lil fatty is just north of there but until shit REALLY hits the fan North Korea would never actually strike South Korea lest it wants to suffer the wrath of China.
Oh I'd say being an American means a hell of a lot over there, in the sense that from the second you step onto their soil to the second you are looooong clear, you have a target on your back and your life is expendable for any reason their leader seems fit. Not that this doesn't apply for other Western nations, but its especially true of Americans.
Yes, holding an American is likely an ideal situation for North Korea as a leveraging tool or a method to put USA in check of some kind. No, being an American gives you no special treatment while there which is what I was alluding to.
As far as targets on your back, I know a number of Americans that have gone to and returned from North Korea for tourism. I seriously doubt they are following each and every tourist in the way you suggest when they are "looooong clear" of their borders.
most that have been detained have either crossed into the country illegally, promoted religion or broke one of their bullshit rules. They surely "prosecute" Americans more severely, but if someone from say Estonia broke one of their rules what advantage would they gain by holding them? Don't give them a reason and you will be fine. I personally wouldn't go but one could go and not have issue.
Also should be noted that there is a diplomatic community in North Korea with a large contingent of foreign citizens living there. These people, with their families, live there in these rules every day and, no, diplomatic immunity is not universal, especially for families.
As I stated, know the environment you are in.
North Korea certainly targets US citizens for propaganda purposes. I doubt they track you once you leave but I'd be willing to bet they keep tabs on every single one of them while they are inside the border to try and find stuff to charge people with. Stupid to put yourself in that spot by going there IMO.
They keep track of every foreigner no matter where they are from. People watch you every where you go. Americans get harsher penalties because of political agenda against them for sure though.
And all it took was sending Dennis Rodman....who knew!?
They can keep him
This is a tragic outcome.
North Korea's health care is terrible, so hopefully access to better care will have better results.
You do wonder, though, why they didn't send him back immediately after he was in a coma.
They say it was botulism poisoning and he has been in a coma for a year. With North Korea's joke of medical care, I don't think it looks good for the kid. I just hope he isn't a vegetable.
There is no rational thought with anything North Korea does, so trying to understand the things they do is a fruitless exercise. I feel really bad for all the brain washed citizens who are being pooped on by their government and fed a whole bunch of lies about the world they live in. We should all be thankful that we have the ability in these United States of America to discuss sports, life, or whatever...without having to worry about being locked up and being sent home in a coma.
My take away from all of this is....NEVER visit North Korea....EVER.
Fun fact: botulism doesn't lead to coma. It should be interesting if and when we get the real details.
Yes, it can.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/05/23/529589579/nacho-cheese-sa...
Read today that a sleeping pill was involved. Hopefully, he'll wake up soon and want to tell everyone about this really shitty dream he had.
I saw some articles saying that he had significant brain tissue death. He isn't waking up.
Man, fuck North Korea.
unfortunately this seems to be the case. He is actually awake, he's just never going to function normally again.
Yes, according to what I have read now is he is technically awake but he is in a minimal concious state. But "he" will never be himself again. In a common but crude term, he is a vegetable now.
Fuck North Korea.
Nothing to do with UVA or VT. I feel horrible for that human being, his friends and his family. He made a mistake for sure but what he has undoubtedly gone through is simply disgusting and all my thoughts and best wishes go out to him.
Unfortunately the latest info on this story is extremely tragic. I can't imagine what he went through and what his family will have to continue to go through.
Awful.
R.I.P. Otto
What a heartbreaking story.
This sucks. Wa-hoo-wa
Freaking awful. Thoughts and prayers to his family.
RIP Otto. Such a fucking sad way this all played out.
If you got an account over at LeSabre, go give some condolences
No words can be found that fully express the hurt I feel for his family and friends at UVA and his hometown. Prayers and peace to all of them.
Godspeed Otto.
Damn. RIP. Fuck North Korea
So sad to hear this development. Blessings to him and his family.
And fuck North Korea.
Well, that's a terrible ending to a terrible story.
I suppose if there's one small consolation, his family got to see him alive one last time.
RIP, Otto.
Going to North Korea for ANY reason is about as smart as going to Juarez, Mexico to "check out the nightlife". If people are dying there or if the country is run by a dictator with open distaste for the US and technically still at war with the United States, what in the actual fuck were you thinking?
What was plan B if no North Korea trip? Taking a sabbatical to some banana republic in Africa where there is civil war to get some epic instagram pics?
His family is going through a lot of pain and suffering, but unnecessarily so. Terrible outcome based on an stupid stupid decision.
I didn't down-vote you, but blaming the victim is never a good look.
I didn't downvote your opinion either, but this probably isn't really the best time to render any hindsight about the situation.
I think we knew this was a stupid decision from the get go. No need to bash him even more, this is a bad look on our fan base. I am willing to bet if that was your son or somebody you knew personally, you wouldn't even think about posting this.
My kids are in grade school and read the news. I think given the option today, they would know enough to formulate an opinion about the risks and dangers of entering North Korea, and hopefully not do it.
Not saying he deserved to die for just being there. Perhaps this tragedy will help those people that needed a cautionary tale about North Korea not follow in his footsteps.
if we learned nothing else from arnie, it's that just because something may be true (or you think it's true), doesn't mean it's appropriate to say it.
Aka don't speak that dam truth even if you really want to
Leg for Psych. That show deserved way more accolades than it got. I use this line all the time in its honor
Agreed. But the movie is coming soon!
To a certain point, yes.
But at the same time, if the message of "your life is expendable without reason in NK" is not openly acknowledged, this will happen again. People who were with Otto on this trip have said the stated reason he was originally arrested (stealing the banner) have since said this accusation might not be as accurate as originally stated. Should that be true, there's no reason why this happened other than he was there and they decided to detain him. And there was nothing we could do to help him. Should this be the case, he was dead the second he stepped foot in NK.
What happened to him was a tragedy, but it was an avoidable one. Shying away from acknowledging that on a widespread public level, while commendable in intent for the family, might not be the best course of action in this case.
The problem is, how do you get people to learn from other people's mistakes while mourning the loss of their friends and family?
My sister lost 3 friends to drunk driving in high school (same accident). The school and the students held vigils and all the like. The problem is, I don't think there was nearly enough emphasis on how absolutely stupid it was to drive drunk.
No one deserves to be treated the way Otto was, but the lesson HAS to be acknowledged.
Yeah, you have to tread a fine line, but it has to be done. I get the intention of wanting to have respect for the family, I totally get that, because what they have to be going through is brutal, but sometimes making a point out of tragedy and the "victim-blaming" as it was put earlier, needs to happen to make a stronger argument of dissuading those who come later. You can't learn anything from this kind of mistake if its never acknowledged and stressed that their actions led to their end.
I am pretty sure the "lesson" was gone over fairly extensively right after he was detained, tried, and sentenced. I do not see the need to go over it again right after his return to the country in grave condition and death shortly afterwards.
Not to compare going over to NK and getting a DWI is the same but I got a DWI back in August of 2013 (in VA, worst state to get one in). It was the worst decision I made and luckily no one got hurt. From the beginning to the end of it, my friends and family saw all the hardship and struggles I went through, (financially, emotionally, physically, etc.) along with all the restrictions on driving yet my friends will still drink and drive because they thought they were sober enough to get home. All it takes is for someone else to hit you and then you're fucked because they police will show up.
What I am getting at is too many people think they are invisible to things they think won't happen to them. Then once it happens, you then automatically regret doing it in the first place. All it takes is one time. I don't know what Otto and the other group what thinking on going over there but they all should have known the possible ramifications.
Such a terrible tragedy. RIP Otto, nobody deserves to be treated like that.