Saw that there wasn't a thread for this yet, and thought there needed to be. The tournament kicks off with the host United States taking on Colombia on June 3 (just less than two weeks away). This is by far the most prestigious tournament the USMNT will play at besides the World Cup, and it fills the infamous sports dead period between the NBA finals and the July 4 hotdog eating contest. Both are great reasons to check it out. Plus it will feature several greats such as Messi, Alexis Sanchez, Suarez, and James Rodriguez; all playing on American soil. Thoughts?
Forums:
DISCLAIMER: Forum topics may not have been written or edited by The Key Play staff.
Comments
Not sure there is an overwhelming favorite. The US were drawn into the toughest group they could have gotten. It's not tougher than the World Cup group of 2014, but all three are good teams. Both Colombia and Costa Rica are pretty well known. Paraguay were bottom of the qualifiers for Brazil, but made the semifinals last year for Copa. I think the US does get out of the group, especially if we get a point out of Colombia. Five points should be enough here and when you're in the knockouts anything can happen.
Not overwhelmingly impressed with any team right now. If I had to bet, would probably put my money on Argentina because, well, Messi. Best player in the tournament by far and has a good enough supporting cast. Wouldn't be surprised to see 7 or so teams win it, with the U.S. being one of those.
As far as sleepers, I like Costa Rica.
especially with suarez now hurt...definitely makes Uruguay look a lot worse
Unless something has radically changed, only one team can win. Alas, FIFA corruption may always confuse us.
Usually, even in the toughest groups, there's a must win game, must draw game, and "we'll take what we can get" game. Unfortunately the US gets the hardest group opponent first in Colombia, making this pretty much a "must draw" game. And while the next two opponents are not close to Colombia, I'm not so sure I want to play either of them. Costa Rica and Paraguay have historically stingy defenses and "park the bus" strategy. The expected result in both of those games has to be draw, although the US will have to win one to advance. If the US and Colombia draw, I could easily see a scenario that puts the Costa Rica-Paraguay winner through, and the US out if they can't convert vs CR or Paraguay.
Don't think Colombia is that good TBH. Think our midfielders will be overwhelmed. I think we see Beckerman/Jones/Bradley all in the center for this one, with Bedoya and Zusi/Zardes tucking in on the wings and Dempsey up top alone. Love Wood, but think he needs a partner. Would like to see Johnson in the midfield, as he's our best player and most natural there, but there are no left backs on the team. Always been our Achilles heel.
Yedlin fits in somewhere hes looked spectacular in build up play to the tournament
Oh for sure. Second name on the team sheet for me. Maybe Chandler slides to the left back, and Johnson can push higher up the midfield and be able to support him defensively, but that's playing with fire.
I know exactly zero about soccer, but forever when I hear Messi I will be reminded of this video.
Messi Goal
Still hoping to make a trip up to Philly for the USMNT's last group match, just waiting on kids' sports schedules to shake out between now and then.
I feel like the promotion for this tournament has been underwhelming (though i've been fired up for it since it was finalized). If World Cup is #1 and Euro is #2, Copa America is easily the 3rd biggest tournament in the world over the 4 year FIFA cycle. CONCACAF has done everything in its power to make Gold Cup a confusing joke (aka, play it as often as possible with only the biggest markets possible (and always in the US) to maximize revenue).
And if I may go off on a tangent, This Copa America Centenario reminds me of my dream...North and Central America should dump the Caribbean and join CONMEBOL to form a new giant American Soccer Federation. Give the Caribbean their .5 qualifier for the World Cup and the new American Federation of Association Football (AFAF) would keep the 4.5 from CONMEBOL and remaining 3 from CONCACAF for a total of 7.5 World Cup slots for the 20 member AFAF.
I could even see simplified WC qualifying: 2 10 team groups (18 matches per team), top 3 in each group qualify, 2 4th place teams play for 7th spot in a playoff, and the loser goes to an interfederation playoff with the Caribbean champ for the final .5 spot.
And for the 2nd year after every World Cup, hold a Copa America with all 20 teams drawn into 4 5 team groups where 8 teams advance to the quarterfinal knockout. That would be a Copa America that could rival Euro eventually. Give the Gold Cup to the Caribbean to do with as they wish...
Ahh, to dream...
North to South:
Canada
USA
Mexico
Belize
Guatamala
Honduras
El Salvador
Nicaragua
Costa Rica
Panama
Columbia
Venezuela
Brazil
Ecuador
Peru
Bolivia
Chile
Paraguay
Argentina
Uruguay
I think that would be mighty unfair to some really good Caribbean teams - Jamaica, Trinidad & Tobago, and Haiti have very solid programs and I'd hate to see them shunted to the side (especially at a time in CONCACAF where the competition is getting much better across the board).
But hey, it'd be a mighty fun federation, though it would likely see the USA missing the World Cup more often.
Not really. They're practically playing for a .5 position right now with Mexico, US, and Costa Rica essentially locks for the three CONCACAF positions, and still have to go through the likes of Honduras and Panama to get there. Would benefit the Caribbean teams I think. If that did happen, I'd like to see the Caribbean and Oceania teams play it off for the one berth.
well, no clue how reliable, but i just saw this on twitter. while not the full merger i had mentioned above, this would be a great thing for the whole hemisphere. no more 2 year Gold Cup cycles!
Yeha this would be awesome. Euros already allow Asian teams, so having another dual-continent tournament would be nice. I'd also like to see a club championship in the Americas a la Champions League.
Now all we need is another tournament for Africa/Oceania/Antarctica.
Update(s):
1. I DID make it to philly with my son for the final group match, and it was awesome.
2. My idea above has some support!
http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/06/17/argentinas-mascherano-thinks-it...
Yeah, I don't know what to think about the US's chances. As always there were some questionable roster moves (no Jordan Morris but Wondo, no left back, Fabian Johnson listed as a defender), but our success is usually predicated on how hard we try on any given day. Is this going to be the US team from 2014 that played open and fast, or will it be the 2015/2016 team that seems sluggish and disinterested? Im fine with losing to more talented opponents, but I'll be frustrated if we keep dropping games because of our effort.
i can't stand the wondolowski over morris selection:
A) i have a somewhat irrational disdain for wondo and think he kind of sucks
B) klinnsman always talks about building for the future and world cups...well why would he take a 31 year old who probably shouldn't have even made the last WC team over a 21-22 year old who is just as good and could potentially be in 3-4 world cups
as for the no left back, i think that Fabian Johnson will be playing there because he's probably our best option if healthy sadly. i would like see young players like darlington nagbe or pulisic given a chance because i think they have some creative abilities but you never know what lineup klinnsman will throw out there
I 100% agree with everything you just said. Your opinion of Wondo is well earned:
I should have also included that I also think Fabian will play Left Back, which is perplexing considering the season he just had with M'Gladbach in the left midfield. Turns out Fabian Johnson is capable of scoring, making smart runs, and effectively transitioning back on defense, which are three qualities that aren't combined often on the USMNT.
Nagbe is interesting to me. I've watched a lot of Portland this season so far, and I, like everyone else, am impressed with him. When the ball is at his feet, he is electric. He moves off the ball well and has a great sense of space and knowing where he should be. He is able to dribble out of a lot of sticky situations, he fights through challenges, and he distributes the ball appropriately. I wonder if he is capable of doing that against international competition. I hope we get the chance to see.
To be completely fair to Wondo, that is an extremely tough finish. Takes it off a half volley, Courtouis is just rushing out at him, not the best of angles, and he misses. it's not that it was a sitter.
I'm not a fan of him on the national team. I think he is incredible in MLS where defenders aren't exactly world class and he can outsmart and get himself in great attacking positions. But in CONCACAF which is very physical, and in the World Cup you can't play him. Granted, I think he's last on the pecking order here, and I'm not sure Jordan Morris would have seen much of the field behind Wood/Dempsey/Zardes, but I get why Klinsman called him up.
Decent shift tonight for US. Biggest takeaway: clean sheet. Also, Bradley has to play the #6. Beckerman just looked old tonight. Nagbe needs to be central from the off, Wood has to start and Pulisic is gonna be a great change of pace substitute.
Nagbe, man. Nagbe.
#FREENAGBE
in all seriousness id like to see this type of lineup or something similar, and think it could be possible:
Guzan
yedlin-cameron-brooks/besler-johnson
bradley-jones
bedoya-nagbe-zardes/dempsey
wood
wood clearly seems like our best option at striker given his domestic form and recent play for USMNT. i wouldn't mind seeing someone else (chandler maybe?) play left back so johnson could be pushed up field. and honestly it wouldn't really bother me if pulisic started
While I'm not super confident about Copa this summer, the potential of our next two World Cup teams is off the charts.
Potential. Sadly I don't have much belief in Klinsmann to utilize it properly. We shall see.
You gotta give credit where credit is due though. The guys world cup record is fantastic and bob bradley left the cupboard pretty bare beyond that golden crop thats starting to phase out. I really do think our youth development has made great strides which was klinnsmans primary goal
I mean shoot look at some of the under 21 studs we have between yedlin, pulisic, matt miazga, zelalem, and I havent totally given up on green. We have a decent crop coming through. Now we need a keeper for after guzan
Fucking. This.
I'm tired of the Klinnsman hate. Dude has revitalized US Soccer. Yes, his endless tinkering with shapes and personnel can get tiresome, but the man has found a way to make us successful. The youth programs have taken major strides, there's ever increasing interest in the sport, and we've had tangible success under him. I'd love to see him still be at the helm when the US wins the World Cup on home soil in 2022 or 26.
I want to like him and I think he did an excellent job in his first few years on the job, including the World Cup which was incredible.
But....
We lost to fucking Jamaica last year in a major tournament, and followed it up by losing to Panama in pk's. Then we blew it in the Confederations cup playoff with Mexico.
I really want Klinsmann to have success with US soccer, but based on last year's results I'm not sure you can say performance is trending in the right direction. The Copa is his one chance to prove that wrong.
Agreed. And the fact that we won't be playing in the Olympics means those in the U23 system are missing BIG tournament play to get ready for anything close to World Cup caliber. Think of the Olympics as qualifying for a bowl game, and the extra practices and game play is invaluable. Instead, the U23 team will be sitting at home watching it on tv, just like the loluva football team does every bowl season. Highly hyped, but not uch int he results department.
Hard to blame him much for the U23's since Andi Herzog is managing them. Plus young guys like Pulisic are (hopefully) getting even better experience by playing in Copa America against first team guys.
I think the commitment to developing youth will eventually yield results, our youth system in the States for years has been find a guy with a European accent to coach travel teams, they must be good because they're from Europe. Now they are actually focused on building through US Soccer run academies with proper coaching. Klinnsman's results haven't been what we wanted, but he's helped change the culture of US Soccer from the ground up. I'm hoping the results start coming soon though, I know he can't last forever with us losing the matches we are supposed to win.
the real change will be when MLS, USL and NASL clubs who make their money from things other than parents cutting checks for their kid to play at the club can run academies free of charge to the players down to the U9 pre-academy ages. Some clubs are there or almost there, but not enough of them. Pay to play has to become a thing of the past at some point if we really want the development of US Soccer players to change. Locally (DC Metro), i believe Philly Union are the only academy to offer academy spots free of charge, but i also think they are only U15+.
When we can have every professional club in this country building their own club from the ground up at no cost to the players, then we will have come a long way. We're heading in the right direction, but still have a long way to go.
Also, i think the growth of that sort of system will force non-professional clubs to change the way they structure their academies. there might always have to be some sort of pay to play in place for these clubs, but they will need to get more creative with corporate partnerships and sponsorships and other sources of revenue/cost cutting in order to keep those costs to the players and their families down. For a club/academy fielding 4 teams in each age group (A/B boys and girls in many cases) from age 9-17, that's 30-40 teams of kids travelling all over the region (and often outside of the region) wearing that uniform. how have more of these clubs not found a way to monetize that through sponsorship? i know some have, but most have not. At a minimum, they should be cutting deals with Nike and Adidas to provide free or heavily subsidized/at cost uniforms, but you would also think regional food chains and other targeted marketing partnerships wouldn't be too terribly difficult to work out.
And why would ODP charge kids to try-out/participate? Is US Soccer really that hard up for cash that they can't fund their own Olympic Development? I know part of this is that every state soccer association is running things their own way to a point, but that seems like low hanging fruit for US Soccer to step in and fix.
i'm babbling on at this point, but in summary: we've come a long way, but still have a long way to go.
My son is finishing up his Freshman year in HS and wrapping up the U15 travel season. Soccer is the only sport he plays, and his younger brother only plays middle school soccer...so we travel quite a bit. Being on the eastern shore of Maryland, we have to cross the bridge for 99.9% of competitive games, outside of the northern DE teams that are still nearly 2 hours away.
ODP has turned into a cash-grab. There is very little development in that system, and it basically is a travel around look-at-me thing currently. Yeah, there are some good players in each state, but not everyone on the ODP teams are D-1 talent. That's a shame.
The Philadelphia Union do a tremendous job with youth soccer and their system. Prob top 3 in the MLS with what they do. Unfortunately we are about 2.5 hours away. Tough to commit to one night a week, thru the winter too, with school and other travel club commitments. The DC United make you pay just to even try out for them. And, how can I say this, if you are a Caucasian male, you don't fit in with their system. It's great for the nations capitol and the diverse community, but it's nearly reverse exclusionary.
Fifa mandated the age change for the upcoming season as it pertains to travel clubs. It's going from an August 1 to July 31 grouping to straight up calendar year. Before, it more or less held true to school grades. Mostly Freshman were playing with other Freshman. But now it's going to hurt the late year birthdays that are in a lower grade than the early year birthdays. 8th graders will be grouped with 9th graders. The former not playing school organized soccer (for the most part, at least in our area) while the latter may be playing jv or varsity level all fall. Big gap in experience and practices. Then, when they get to be seniors, the late birthdays (Sep-Dec) will be left without a team since the early birthdays (Jan-May same calendar year) will have graduated. It's going to cost them all thru high school. Which may cost them the potential to play in college, even if it isn't on scholarship.
Above there was a comment that Klinsmann was to be applauded for his youth soccer growth. That's where my comment about the U23 team came in...Klinsmann doesn't have anything to do with the lower tiers. And he hasn't sparked interest in youth soccer, the parents have. It's not because of him that numbers have grown. And to be fair, it's not his fault we failed to qualify for the Olympics.
Gone are the days when neighborhood teams could win a NA championship. Only when this mentality returns will development in America be back on track.
Now we've got layers and layers of kids and BS coaches getting plaudits for winning and/or moving up a level.
The game is a third insight a third skill and a third physicality. None of these is developed while in a car.
U gotta develop skills and learn to play. U gotta run sprints and long distance - a horrifying combination. U gotta get exposed to people who have insights worth listening to.
The game is moving backward in this country. I truly believe that. Focus should be on skills. As kids mature an equal emphasis on physicality. Getting kids playing time with other age groups including parents who can play should also be a key component. All this emphasis on winning and only playing elite clubs is absurd.
Futsal. It's a great teacher of intuition and foot skills. Small sided, so everyone gets touches. A lot of touches. Quick steps, playing defense in a small area, recovering to get back, it's a phenomenal teacher.
My son has a kid on his high school team that lives in the neighborhood that grew up in Jamaica. Talk about just fun to watch. Quick feet. Thinks on the fly. Fast. Good touch. All learned from NOT playing in confined system. He and my boys will spend hours outside just kicking it around, trying different tricks and skills, give and gos, trying to hit different spots on the goal. And it shows when they go out and play. Luckily our travel coach gets playing by feel, and lets' them go...to some extent. It's not all about winning with him, its about playing together and getting in front of some college coaches. We've played a few college showcase tournaments this year, a couple with over 100 college coaches in attendance. Having the drive and positive attitude is all that some of the D3 coaches are looking for in a player to fill a gap on their roster. And our coach filled a few of them this past season. He grew up in Bmore and still has a lot of connections, so he's a great asset to the club all around.
There are some good teams on the eastern shore. Calvert as well. Be thankful you are somewhat isolated from the nonsense, though I'm sure you still see it. Its hard to find good coaching. When you do find it the crazy parents want wins wins wins and sometimes it gets drowned out. Grew up in Columbia MD... place has gone downhill since I left. Ok I kid but its not the same brotherhood of kids its more suburban kids who like their parents don't know one another don't want to know one another, cuz they're better than all the others. Soft and unskilled, but they keep moving up the ladder, so they must be doing something right. Least the coaches keep telling em so!
Holy cow, SAC is nuts!!!! They have 4 teams in U15 alone. And their club has treated us on the shore very poorly with scheduling 8 am games as much as they can. Oh well, guess that's what we get for beating 3 of the 4... Sitting there listening to the parents is more frustrating than anything else. All gossip, planning on leaving the club, trying to figure out who #43 is today, worrying about what wine to serve with their dinner that night. I try to get away from the "my kid is the greatest" parents that just blast every other 15 year old out there too. That's just a shame when you hear that going on. (And I've had a discussion or 2 with our parents about being supportive, not critical...)
Our coach is interested in building a true team, and getting these kids in front of college coaches. He has a lot of relationships from growing up in Bmore and playing semi-pro for some time. I've stepped in to help him to some extent; while he's watching the whole field, I'll work with 2 or 3 kids on the pitch to help them see the bigger picture. We're lucky that we don't have too much ME ME ME going on. Or too much, Awe schucks, we HAVE to play today??? They come out, show up, and have at it.
SAC is crazy. What is crazier is the coaches are pretty poor. There are Baltimore County coaches who are really good and they laugh at how bad the coaching at SAC is. There are a few associated with Celtic who are really good. Ryan P in Anne Arundel I think is gonna be really good. The little hidden secret is that some of the best teams SAC ever produced were coached by someone's Dad and succeeded despite SAC's interference. They get some really good athletes. Back in the day we differentiated our play with our skill not necessarily our physical dominance.
These kids and their parents never play for a team they just got stuck having to play for someone while they move on to something better.
When I grew up we demanded one thing. You had to play 100% on 50/50 balls. If you couldn't do it we didn't want you. We had good players leave. But we wanted to be brothers and we wanted to be tough and strong for one another. That sh** never happens anymore. Everyone is waiting to commit to the US national team they just haven't made it yet.
Can't find the link, but recently read the article how the soccer culture in America is really only improving in the white middle/upper class demographic (similar to golf/tennis, but not nearly as extreme). If the US wants to create a legitimate grass roots soccer movement, they have to find a way to appeal to all demographics, the way football, basketball and baseball do now.
Even baseball has seen a major decline in the number of urban youth moving to major leagues of the sport.
The ODP program is basically a $5k commitment for the year, and that's just for the privilege of listing that on your "resume". Doesn't include travel (Abroad for 10 days, typically France or England, which is NOT cheap) or any time. They play somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 games stateside, and practice maybe twice a month. It's absurd.
We are lucky enough to be able to travel to tournaments and sleep in our own bed most nights unless they hit us with an 8am game. Still a time commitment, but I'm usually carrying 3 players with me and they'll crash in the car after games anyway. There are some kids in my sons school that can't do the travel thing. The parents schedule doesn't jive with the practice and game schedule. And that's just the time portion.
Have the youth programs really taken successful strides? A lot of people will point to the U-20 World Cup run, which is one of the high points in the US youth program. That was a promising sign. But then it was followed up by a failure to qualify for the Olympics this year.
People point to guys like Yedlin, Miazga, Zelalem & Pulisic - the only one I think you could make an argument for that Klinsmann has helped his career is Yedlin. He was taken to the World Cup when everyone thought it was too early, so I'll give Jurgen that one. But the rest of those guys have been seen as top talents for years now. It's not like Klinsmann found diamonds in the rough with those guys.
If people want to give credit to Klinsmann for playing young guys, that's fine by me. And if you want to give him credit for more aggressively pursuing dual-nationals, by all means do so. But it's not like either of those are new in the US system.
Really, the sea change in youth development was taking place before Klinsmann arrived - MLS academies were in place before his hire and the highest levels of the sport have gotten more exposure than ever in the past decade. I think those 2 things are far more important than anything Jurgen has done.
As far as tangible success, he's been no more successful than those who came before him. He made it out of a tough group in the World Cup - other US teams have done that too. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Jurgen is setting us back. But I also don't buy the narrative that he's the one pushing us forward.
US youth system is broken. We're touting Nagbe like he's a new shiny object. He's 25...that's too late to peak for sustainability of your teams. We need to be getting these players to making World Cup debuts at 23/24 so they have 3 cycles. Look at the stalwarts of our teams of past: Dempsey, Donovan, Bradley, Beasley all making WC debuts in their early 20s and playing well there.
College system by-and-large doesn't work. The pay to play model in the youth academies don't work. Compared to kids literally everywhere else, it's broken. I'm not saying playing NCAA Division 1 is a low level of soccer, but compared to these 17-18 year olds in England playing in League 1 and the Championship on loan, it's a whole nother ballgame.
Well the whole deal with Nagbe is very different, considering he just became a US citizen in the past year. But I get your point, and agree. As for getting young guys in to World Cups early, I think there's very good chances that we'll see guys like Pulisic, Miazga, Zelalem, Hyndman and Wood at the 2018 tournament. So that's not a big concern of mine - there's plenty of young talent who will likely be ready for the spotlight.
Obviously, pay-to-play is the big one and has been the hardest piece of the puzzle to crack in US youth development. For the run of the mill youth academy, it's still a big part of the system. But we're to a point where most MLS clubs are not pay-to-play, and they're identifying talent younger & younger and bringing the most promising prospects into the fold. Other high-level talents have found their ways to foreign academies. Things are improving, albeit at a glacial pace. The more fully professional clubs that this country has, the better off things will be. I'm hopeful that the rapid expansion of USL will lead to expanded opportunities for young players and it's pretty clear that the business of pro soccer has never been healthier.
With regards to college soccer, many within the soccer community would agree that the system isn't working to its full potential. There are efforts underway to shift the men's schedule to span both semesters, as the thought is that it would increase training & recovery time, since they wouldn't be playing 2-3 games over the course of one weekend. Here's a decent summary:
http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/01/14/us-national-teams-jurgen-klinsmann-supporting-college-soccer-changes-keep-it
I also don't believe that we have to approach youth development just like every other country - the college system may not be the most ideal path, but education is a important part of our culture too. I don't think we should be depriving soccer players of the American youth experience (i.e. college) just because we want to win a World Cup. And there are plenty of former college players who are now a part of the national team: Dempsey spent 3 years in college, Besler 4 years, Cameron 4 years, Nagbe 3 years, Birnbaum 4 years, etc. It's obviously not a perfect system, but I think giving a kid the option is important. Improving the way those developmental years are handled in college will help too.
Just curious how successful you think Klinsmann has made us. And what the tangible successes are.
As head of the USMNT Bob Bradley had a winning percentage of 53.75%. Klinsmann's is 56.79%. Arena's was 54.62%. Not much difference in there...and we STILL won't be playing in the Olympics this year, nor did we qualify for the 2012 Olympics. That's part of the "youth" program.
Not hating, just saying that we aren't anywhere near the level we should be, or could be given the amount of interest and youths now playing bigger level soccer than a decade ago. Things need to progress a lot more than being ranked 31 in the world.
Well considering bob bradley was handed quite possibly a golden generation of players I think his numbers are skewed.
He has tim howard, clint dempsey, landon donovan, michael bradley, and jermaine jones, in their primes. His style of play was also a boot it long and hope for a break on the counter. Youll never compete consistently at a high level doing that and it showed. In the big tournaments we were either boom or bust. I think weve been much more consistent in tournament play under klinnsman. Furthermore he has been experimenting a lot more with formations and positions in friendlies. Which everyone who thinks that is a bad thing is flat wrong. Thats when you want to tinker to get better. Bob bradley always kept to the same formation and the same tactics. You might get a lucky break once or twice and make a run but you'll never improve consistently
Furthermore everyone talking about youth development... You wont see the results for a few years. Bob bradley took over and got a good first crop. Ok, he didn't exactly train them up from day 1 he was around for 6 years and the talent level slowly dropped off to the point that it is now. Outside of nagbe how many really good players do we have between the ages of 20 to 28. Not to many, and I think thats on Bradley the kids were between 14-22 when klinsmann took over and 8-16 when bradley took over. To extend success youve got to be able to make that talent come out of the wood works
Klinsmann has been in charge for 6 years now and were already seeing players that at 16-22 are making a name for themselves. Players that wouldve been 10-16 when klinsmann took over. Ok our youth system isnt perfect but youve gotta admit its trending in the right direction. I think we'll see in the next 2 years if klinnsmann is for real but I think the guy has earned himself another world cup. It's not like weve crashed out in the group stages every tournament.
We have some good young keepers coming up. Guzan still has a couple of years left so we have a little bit of time before we will be relying on someone else. I think the best two we have are Bill Hamid and Evan Horvath. Hamid has been great so far but he needs to take to the next step in his career. While I am a DC United fan I am hoping that he transfers to Europe so that he can continue to develop and take over the #1 spot once Guzan is done. Ethan Horvath is the next option for us. He's a few years younger than Hamid so he's got some time to gain experience. He's already playing in Europe (in Norway) but needs to move to a more competitive league to develop and to get ready to take over the #1 spot for us.
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love soccer. I've played since I was 4 and love everything about it. But it just feels wrong to me that the 100th anniversary is here instead of in South America. The atmosphere just won't be the same.
As for predictions, I'd have to go with Argentina. They are probably coming towards the end of the Messi-era for winning big tournaments and just for him I'd love to see him go out with a Copa and WC, otherwise we get the idiots doubting his greatness when he is probably better than Maradona by a lot (arguably better than Pele too).
I can't wait for the Euro too.
There was a comment that this is a showcase in order to try to secure the next (2026?) World Cup.
Which makes sense...why (attempt) to build all new stadiums, to have them either unfinished by the deadline or used only a handful of times when we have everything (practically) in place now. 2022 in Qatar is going to be a mess. As was 2014 in Brazil.
It's not like it was 50 years ago when the Olympics and Worlds Fair was a big deal to the city hosting it. Let's not build something for a limited use and utilize what it already existing. And let's be honest, 99.99% of the people that will view the World Cup will do so via tv anyway, not in the stands.
This anniversary wasn't on a scheduled year for Copa America to be played. It's played every four years, with 2015 being the last played. It's here for a few reason. They brought in CONCACAF teams, it was planned pretty quickly as far as tournaments go and the US has the infrastructure to sustain it. It almost was a no go as a lot of the South American confederations were caught up in that bribery scandal and this tournament was part of that but it's still going ahead.
So, I'm trying to get excited about this, but I'm having trouble, for a couple of reasons.
1. No game in DC or Baltimore. Don't get me wrong, Philly's great (saw the U.S. play Turkey there before the 2010 World Cup...the halftime games between 8 year olds was only time I've ever seen grown adults yelling and cursing at small children and then get applauded by those around them) but with the tons of people in this area from South American and Latin America, and a fanbase that has pretty reliably turned out at RFK for the Men's National Team, seems like we got screwed.
2. I can't focus on anything else so close to watching Wales lift the European Championship trophy.
Better chance than England.
Did I say something funny.
US adds Castillo in for injured Chandler. Get their left back that will allow Johnson to move up if needed.
Would like to see us roll out vs Colombia:
Right to Left:
Guzan
Yedlin-Cameron-Brooks-Castillo
Bradley
Jones-Nagbe-Johnson
Depmsey-Wood
Do the Ecuador and Bolivia games change anyone's outlook on the USMNT during Copa?
With Nagbe, Pulisic and Zardes coming on so strong, and Bradley having a strong game as the 6 against Bolivia, I'm generally more encouraged going into the tournament. Those two games were the US getting back to their ways of doing things like trying hard and seeming interested.
I think Besler playing left back and being allowed to attack the left wing might be an experiment best left for another time. Maybe "fish out of water" can describe what he looked like trying to learn the position on the fly
Entering this tournament with cautious optimism. I love Duece but was unimpressed with the fact he didn't play higher and stretch either teams back 4. How many times did he get knocked down and then spens the next couple of minutes complaining? Would rather see him play a role off the bench. Zardes is dangerous playing a more central role. Jermaine Jones seems like he never ages. He plays hard for 90 minutes. Bedoya impressed me the most. His delivery was exceptional against Bolivia and that will be needed against Colombia.
If we get out of the group and lose to Brazil in the quarters, I think it's a good tournament. If we lose in the group stages, but the likes of Yedlin, Wood, Zardes, Pulisic and Brooks have good performances, I think it's a win as well. USMNT twitter is gonna be outraged if we don't advance, but it's all perspective. What we can't do is lay an egg on our own turf. I think if we do...we have to start thinking about Klinsman's future.
Fair weather fans give the most grief. We have to look at the fact there are some other players not playing in COPA that will be making waves later...i.e. Julian Green. I agree of the young players perform well and get tourney experience I am happy. If we get out of the group and play Brazil well we are ahead of where I figured we would be right now. After COPA I think Klinsmann needs to pull back the playing time of guys like Dempsey and Jones who might not be on the next WC team.
I think Dempsey should be done, but Jones has shown no signs of slowing down.
gotta think its gonna catch up to him eventually. I wanna know what he's eating though that guy seems like he's almost getting better with age and it really is a shame thinking that hes getting close to the end of his career. I'm gonna miss him on the US roster
Demps caps out as a forward. Can't beat good international competition. At midfield he may play better and maybe see another WC. Forward.... think his glory days if he ever had em are gone. Even at Tottenham he was playing a decent amount of midfield.
Jones I think physically is slowing down and his game is more dependent on physicality. Seemed he was coming off injury? Gotta give him at least 6 months back to see if he can get back or is having issues.
I'm not buying the new boys are better than the old, but I admire these kids who went outside the American system (which I think needs to be shot) traveled to Europe to earn their chops.
Arguably Jones and Demps did this too, but I think if JK does one thing right it is his emphasis on playing in Europe.
TODAY IS THE DAY!
Alas, here are my sure to go wrong predictions:
Group A - Columbia and USA (a long shot)
Group B - Brazil and Ecuador
Group C - Uruguay and Mexico
Group D - Argentina and Chile
From there:
Columbia vs. Ecuador
Argentina vs. Mexico (this goes beyond 90 IMO)
Brazil vs. USA
Uruguay vs. Chile
Columbia vs. Argentina
Brazil vs. Chile
Argentina wins.
Brazil should compete more but they're fielding a weak team for the Olympics which are in jeopardy which would really suck. Brazil is such a anomaly in this tournament. They could win the whole thing or lose in the group stage. Nothing would surprise me. Columbia too. They'll be better than Brazil, but they've under-performed.
Not sure why you consider the US a long shot to make it out of the group. It's 50/50 for me. Costa Rica has not proven they can beat the US in a competitive game on US soil, Colombia will be difficult and if we get a draw that'll be good enough, and Paraguay is the wildcard that could throw a wrench into the whole thing.
Especially since Navas is out for Costa Rica
US hasn't proven to me that the can live up to even the average expectations we set them to. Guatemala happened. We're struggling to get into the hex man.
we're going to make the hex, and id be shocked if we don't make it to Russia.
People said they wouldn't advance in Brazil and they did...The USMNT for better or worse seems to have a tendency to play to the level of it's competition, i could see them getting 5 points in the group stage and making it out
i feel like we ALWAYS struggle to get into the Hex...always need 4+ pts in our last 2 qualifiers. i also feel like more often than not we wait til the last match of the hex to clinch top 3 there, too. it's just the nature of this region. we get EVERYONE's best shot. also, i would love to see Euro teams go play in some of these locations in central america and the caribbean. before the heat, humidity and fans even got to them, they would be appalled at the facilities and playing surfaces. our region is not a fun one...
Concacaf also has THE worst referees. I'm not exaggerating. I'll make an exception for that guy from Mali.
VT_Warthog
Everyone struggles on the road in CONCACAF. It's most teams are happy with a draw. Horrible field conditions. Hot, humid, muggy weather. Raucous fans. Draws on the road in CONCACAF are good results.
And what are you're "average expectations?" For a country whose best athletes don't play soccer? Whose domestic system is different than every other major power in the footballing world. Whose leagues best players are mostly foreign. Other than the size of the country, there is really no expectation for the US to be "good." China isn't good. Russia isn't that great. India is awful. Population = soccer success. It has to be the grassroots game. It isn't in the US and until it is, expectations shouldn't be high simply because we're the US.
What were your expectations in the World Cup? Yes, we struggled in the Gold Cup last year but that was a one off and you have to go back to 2006 debacle in Germany where we laid eggs in a big tournament, unless you count 2010 when we were the better team than Ghana, but a Round of 16 World Cup performance is the expectation that the US should have. They got it in Brazil. Got played off the pitch by Belgium, but still had the chance there at the end to win it and almost clawed back down 2-0 in extra time.
I'm sorry but I expect a US Team to beat the shit out of Guatemala no matter where they play. And that's the point I'm making, we set average expectations for our soccer team because we don't allocate resources to it to warrant it being an elite national team. Just like I expect our basketball and football teams to win world events all the time, because we allocate our best teams to it.
Our group is hard. Making it out of the group is just as likely of us falling flat. I guess I'm just more pessimistic about our chances. Who cares.
Well considering world champion Spain almost tied Guatemala 5 years ago I think it's harder than most fans think in concacaaf. Plus its super poorly officiated on an average day
If we play Brazil in this tournament we will win. Book it. Brazil is one of the most overrated teams in all of sports and just lost two of the best guys remaining on their team. I really like Chile, but they just lost to Jamaica (yeah I know it was a friendly, but still). With Suarez and possibly Messi not playing, it's really anyone's tournament.
Picks
Group A: Colombia and USA
Group B: Brazil and Peru
Group C: Uruguay and JAMAICA
Group D: Chile and Argentina (win both other games and tie each other, Chile wins goal difference)
Colombia over Peru
Chile over Jamaica
USA over Brazil (maybe a homer pick but Brazil sucks)
Argentina over Uruguay
Argentina over US
Colombia over Chile in Pk's
Argentina over Colombia (3-1)
I can certainly see us beating Brazil. I can see both US and Brazil either winning this whole thing or falling flat, honestly. No one in Brazil gives a shit about this tournament so I wouldn't surprised to see them play outstanding soccer since there's no pressure. They collapsed under expectations in 2014.
Welp, about us beating Brazil...
USA going with a 4-3-3 to open up.
Really thought there would be more people at the game.
From what I've heard, it's either a sell out or close to a sell out. My guess is that it will fill in the next few minutes.
On a related note, WAY too much yellow in the crowd early. As far as we've come on a competitive level, it's still maddening to see us outnumbered in the crowd at home.
It's understandable though, this tourney is huge in South America. Add in just popularity of soccer in Latin America compared to U.S.
Game over 7:30 in.
Soccer is not fun to watch, period.
Is that sarcasm?
Why would it be sarcasm?
1 set piece and the game is over. 2 set pieces and their tournament might be over.
A 1-0 match is not over. You don't watch much soccer do you?
I'll never understand people on this site's obsession with coming into off topic threads and shitting on it just because they don't like it. Swear to god it happens in every OT thread.
Preach
I am shitting on a thread for an accurate assessment of a boring soccer match?
The game was over 7:30 into it. That's exciting?
Youre not adding anything to the discussion and came in to insult it. So yes. Youre shitting on a good discussion about the sport. A 1-0 lead is not impossible to overcome, in fact comebacks are pretty common in a tournament play. We had an off day but we still have two more chances to get out of group play. If we play well we will advance. If you dont like soccer dont badger repeatedly and attack a thread. Simply ignore it, we're obviously pretty into the sport and you running in here saying essentially it's boring and stupid is going to piss off a lot of people on here
Just now seeing this. But yes. Obviously everyone in this thread enjoys to sport and enjoys watching it. Your comment adds nothing to the discussion. No one is forcing you to watch it yet you still want to come comment on it in a thread full of soccer fans. Why the fuck did you feel compelled to do that? "Oh I don't like soccer let me go bitch at everyone else about it and see if I can make them feel bad for liking a sport that I don't like."
That's so selfish. Get the fuck outta here with that shit. This site is better than that.
Then dont watch and get out of this thread. Problem solved
Is San Fran moth capital of the world or something?
Good grief Michael Bradley is a walking turnover out there. Not sure a single pass of his this second half so far has connected with an American teammate.
Thia whole group of players just looks lost. They aren't playing as a team and they aren't on the same page. It's like this is the first time they've ever played together. Sad.
Everyone looked out of sync. No one seemed able to anticipate the actions of their teammates.
Not just Bradley. The entire team needs to spend the next three days learning how to pass the ball to each other. They telegraphed their passes and the US players were not coming back to the ball to receive passes making it simple for Columbia to intercept them. This is basic fundamentals and it's absolutely pathetic to see a national team that is not capable of passing.
We live by the Bradley and die by the Bradley, and tonight we died. he played awful. also, Dempsey should not start. he's valuable, but should be a super sub at this point. i could only wish Bradley were so simple. we need him when he's good, and we wish he were gone when he's not...if only we could know before kickoff....
Can someone explain to me why in the world anyone would ever think Bradley is a good 6???!!! He plays like he did the other night in the 6 spot and we lose 4-0 without the handball PK. Trbl.
for all the complaints many of us have with Klinsmann's inability to define a style of play, I truly believe Bradley has been a huge part of that problem. He's not a great 6, he's not a great 8, and he certainly can't slide up into the 10. so what the heck is he? he's a creator who can't be relied on to defend or be allowed to get too far forward which exposes a wide open midfield. Klinsmann has tried and failed to build the team around Bradley.
the 4-4-2 diamond didn't work because it either forced Bradley forward where his creativity gets gummed up or it left him alone in front of the back 4 where he was a liability. prior to that the 4-2-3-1 was actually working ok when Jozy was healthy and at the top of his game, but with no target 9, that formation turns into a 6 man midfield with no goal scoring chances. and now we're toying with the 4-3-3 which again leaves Bradley alone in the middle of the field to protect the back line. he can't be there by himself. he needs to be a 6/8 hybrid playing next to another 6/8 hybrid who can defend first but get forward if Bradley is sitting too deep. this brings us back to the 4-2-3-1 or maybe a 4-1-4-1 setup with Michael playing the 8 spot next to the 10, but either way, who is the #9? Can it be Wood? all of our forwards seem to be better with a partner up top which leaves us no comfortable place to put Bradley. he's a good player who can be invaluable on set pieces, but just doesn't seem to fit with our current roster options over 90 minutes.
Bradley may have to endure the fate of Donovan. Or for now, a second half sub. Having him in for 90 minutes is just killer.
In a 4-2-3-1, I would love to see Zardes as a right wing, Pulisic on the left, Wood up front, Dempsey as a 10, then maybe Bradley works in as an 8. That gives the 6 to Beckerman or Bedoya, with the back 4 of Guzman, Yedlin, Cameron & Brooks. If Bradley is a no go, put Fabain in at the 8 and let him overlap the 10. In fact, that might just work, with Bradley as a cheerleader and Fabian as a gunner at the 8. Nagbe's a super sub along with Zusi.
Michael Bradley cannot play another minute. Need six points from two games. Still embarrassing to lay an egg on our home turf. And don't give me that we played well bullshit. We only had possession because Colombia parked the bus.
Yeah after the promising build up that was a tough performance to watch. Hopefully this is the kick in the ass we need to get into gear
Yeah we're not out of it but hopefully Columbia can sweep, Costa Rica and Paraguay draw and we win out.
2-0 loss to open the tournament that could have been 4-0 without a couple crossbar hits. Just a pitiful effort by the US which never felt like it got on the same page. Passes were all over the place to everywhere except where they needed to be. Pretty awful effort by the hosts of the tournament. Worth noting in the current format only 9% of teams who lose their first game advance to the elimination stage.
This very well could be it for Jurgen and I now feel like it should be. This isn't a team, it's a collection of players whose styles don't really mesh.
Meh. That's how I'd describe most national squads. Let's see how they do against squads that aren't obviously more talented than ours. And yeah, Columbia is.
Yeah but we didn't have a system at all. Not a Jurgen hater, but I think it's at least partly his responsibility to define a style of play. Our offensive strategy consisted of badly placed long balls, or Wood/Dempsey dribbling into 5 people. There was no rhythm or organization that you see with a lot of European teams, particularly Germany. I just haven't been sold on Jurgen's ability to use X's and O's and he certainly isn't even close to Joachim Low on this front, probably why Germany canned him and promoted Low.
I think yesterday is evidence that our system simply falls apart when we're up against superior talent, but otherwise he does in fact have a plan.
Columbia was always going to be a tall task, but we have the horses to beat teams like Costa Rica. So all in all, I'm not giving up on Jurgen yet.
See, I think the way we lost to Colombia is actually more damning to Jurgen's abilities as a coach - yes, it's clear that Colombia is more talented. But a well-coached team with lesser talent & a defined, practiced system can do great things. Costa Rica's 2014 World Cup run is a good example of that actually.
Look at this quote from a recent Q&A Klinsmann did with the Wall Street Journal:
Can you imagine a manager like Mourinho saying something like that? Not in a million years.
I think a lot of what happened yesterday against Costa Rica comes down to a couple things: We were more talented across the board, and Jurgen actually started the same 11 guys in the same spots for the first time in forever. Jurgen tinkering with tactics & formations endlessly during friendlies might be his way of seeing where players fit on the field, and that's fine. But you can't turn around and expect your team to play as a cohesive unit while only having played said formation a couple times in the lead-up to strong competition like Colombia.
I don't think Jurgen is actively holding back US Soccer, but I also don't believe we've lived up to any of the promises he made when he got the job. To me, Jurgen's biggest flaw is that he's incapable of taking blame for anything, and the buck always gets passed on to someone else. He doesn't do himself any favors by speaking condescendingly, and overall, I think he's created a more toxic atmosphere around the national team than existed before. Basically, he comes off as a jerk and I'm tired of mediocre results for a guy who talks such a big game.
I personally feel like he gets defensive because Americans are NOT good at not being the best at the sport, especially new fans, and he doesn't know how to handle that.
It's like when people got upset with him for him saying we weren't going to win the last World Cup, before the tournament started. He was speaking the truth, but Americans don't like to accept that kind of statement when it comes to sports. I think it's a culture discrepancy. How can we be surprised that he now talks the way he does, when we collectively gave him hell for speaking realistically?
Personally, I see a lot of improvements from the Bradley era already, and that's with us hanging a lot of responsibility on a much younger generation of player. I don't think he's the best international manager out there (note that the Mourinho's of the world tend to stay in the club scene where they have more total control...) but I don't think he's nearly as bad as people want to believe.
The last paragraph is Bingo. I hear it a lot, and even have read it in this discussion topic, crediting him with the youth movement in the US, but giving him a pass for us not qualifying for the last 2 Olympics with the U23 squads because he's not the coach. It can't be both ways. Soccer has taken off in the US because of past successes (Ramos, Agoos, Cobi Jones, Balboa, McBride, Reyna, Lalas, Wynalda from the '98 WC team...) parents getting their kids interested in it instead of baseball or football, and having more access to coaches that played and know the game versus just a dad stepping in. It's taken time, and hasn't blown up overnight. And could be a very good reason why it could actually be successful as a whole across the county if managed properly. Keep it up and some good will come out of it.
As to the "manager" Mourinho saying that, no I can't. But he's a true manager. For some reason Klinsmann has taking over this "wizard" role of sorts, over seeing this, speaking to that, discussing this, working on that. He talks in generalities to guys that haven't been spoken to in that manner. He's not speaking their language, or what they've been used to. Maybe that's why Bradley seems aloof sometimes. He's doing too much soul searching on the pitch instead of just playing the way he's been taught for 25 years. And why Jozy doesn't seem to get a fair shake. Or Donovan was at home the last WC. Or Brooks can't seem to find his way onto the pitch despite playing with his own style; like he's told.
I don't dislike Klinsmann, I just don't feel like he's the answer to US soccer at this time. Maybe he has pointed the ship in the right direction, but it needs a better engine to take it to where it needs to be.
Bradley plays out of position frequently i feel (a fault to Klinnsman), Jozy gets all the chances but can't stay healthy (paper hamstrings), Donovan missed the last WC because he took time off and perhaps JK held that against him, and Brooks has been playing consistently for the US the last two years or so. I don't think JK is some sort of wizard or managerial god but we could be doing worse. I think he's the right manager for us at this time but not the manager after 2018 (im still certain we make the WC).
I'm genuinely curious as to what peoples' expectations are for US soccer at this point in time. Keep in mind our domestic league is still only what 20 some odd years old? Top flight clubs in England were founded in the 1800's. I keep reading people say we're getting mediocre or below average results... and gold cup last year aside i don't see it (and quite frankly i don't care if we win the gold cup or not). I care about tournaments like this and the WC, which at this point we can only hope to get out of the group and maybe win a game or two realistically. The other factor is youth development which I think there is a good amount of going on, even if you look at who has played for us recently. IMO the future is brighter now then it was 4-6 years ago.
My expectations aren't really that different than yours. But I would prefer to have a coach who doesn't fracture the fanbase and insult our intelligence like Jurgen has done. As far as youth development goes, a lot of that would have happened with or without Jurgen since US Soccer just has access to more money as the game has grown in this country.
The most important changes he's implemented are probably ones that nobody really sees or talks about - things like updating coaching courses & making them more accessible, mandating financial-aid for USSDA clubs, introducing small-sided game standards, etc.
I point this out because I think that Jurgen is probably a really good technical director who can offer a lot to our county. I just don't think he's very well-suited to be our national team coach.
Yes, it's brighter. But not extremely well lit.
My expecatation is to be higher than 31st in the world. Now. Why? Because we were #8 is 2005. And #14 in 2013. Call it a regression, a slip, whatever, but we should be in the top 15-20 consistently. (Sound like VT football at all?)
Pre-Bradley we were 2002-#10, 2003-#11, 2004-#11, 2005-#8 in the world. Heck, in 1996 we were #18! Successful. Playing our way into big tournaments. Winning some games. Gaining traction. Then it plummeted. 2006-#34 when Bradley took over. It went back up to #14 in 2009. Solid. Another plummet in 2011 to #34 when Klinsmann took over. In two years, he took us back up to #14 in 2013. Now we are at #32 & #31 the past two seasons. That's going backwards. Slipping from #14 to #20 is a hiccup. Sliding below #30 is regression.
Let's look at a few other Countries over a similar timeframe. Take Belgium. In 2009-#66. Switch managers. Go to 2010-#57. Switch again after missing the WC in 2006 and 2010, but keep momentum to 2011-#41. Still behind the US, even at a down swing in the USMNT. 2012-#21, then a new manager that takes them to 2015-#1 & 2016-#2 in the world. Now do I think the US will get to top 5, probably not. But in 7 years, Belgium went from #66 to #1. Progress, gaining momentum every year. Not ups and downs. (And out ups and downs aren't 2-3 spots...they are substantial 15 spot swings.)
Take Chile. 2002-#84 Missed the 2002 and 2006 WC's. New manager in 2007-2011, and another from 2012-current. Every year, except 2, from 2002 Chile has moved up in the rankings to #5. Copa America champs in 2015. And this is without qualifying for the Olympics in 2004, 2008, 20012, or 2016.
Ok, small country in Europe...Austria. 2007-#94. Climbs to #10 now. Hosted the 2008 European Championships to receive an auto-entry...to which 10,000 Austrian signed a petition for them to withdraw "to spare the Nation's embarrassment." They've got some young talent and are now #10.
For the talk that we were the better team, and over matched the Costa Rica squad; they are #23 currently, 8 spots ahead of the USMNT. And were #16 in 2014 when they made it to the quarter finals of the WC. They've gotten tournament experience, having won or finished 2nd in the Copa Centroamericana every tournament since 1991 except 1 in 1995. Small country, getting better results than the US.
Guess my point is that there are several countries that are much smaller, have a smaller pool of players, don't necessarily have the EPL or Spanish League in their backyard, and have grown the program to heights greater than ours, consistently. Yes, there are others that have fallen. But the USMNT should be able to achieve more than what it has. To add, I feel like no matter who takes over for Klinsmann whenever they will have to revamp things yet again. There will be a new system, approach, regression in the rankings, and not the progress and building upon past steps that it should be. He's here and now, but tomorrow will be something different. That's not the up-and-down yoyo ride that USMNT should be on.
FIFA rankings can be useful sometimes, but you should be careful when you apply them.
In the case of Costa Rica, they were without some of their best players in this tournament (and yesterday's game in particular for various reasons). No #1 keeper Keylor Navas is injured, one of their best center backs opted not to play in this tournament to rest after a grueling 2 year schedule, Kendall Waston was suspended for his red card in Costa Rica's first match, and Marco Urea came off due to injury in the first 20 minutes.
Understand. The rankings aren't perfect, but at least give some sort of correlation between squads and even from year to year. And a "full" Costa Rica team looks a lot different than it did last night. They worked to show improvement in the other national squads as well as the up-and-downs in the USMNT rankings.
FIFA rankings are quite honestly crap. Period.
Yeah dont trust fifa rankings at all. We were #2 in the world a few years back then bombed out in the group stages of the world cup the following year. That in itself should tell you how inaccurate these things are.
The Fifa rankings is a points calculation, based on your games in the past
2448 months: P = M x I x T x CM = match result (3 = win, 1 = draw, etc)
I = Importance of match (Friendly = 1, world cup = 2.5, etc.)
T = Strength of opposing team
C = Strength of confederation
FIFA rankings can't be taken as exact science of ranking teams only because there are ways to manipulate the system and increase your team's chances of receiving more points, based on who you schedule to play or choose not to play in your friendlies.
Fifa's Ranking Procedure
Edit: Games in the past 48 months are used, not 24 months. Even though games in the past 12 months are weighted more in the calculation.
And to put it this way, how many years would we be okay with Fuente taking to get us into the top 20 consistently? 3? 5? And those rankings are reset yearly (though previous years results can play into the idiotic preseason rankings). Using FIFA rankings to gauge an international manager (and this isn't even considering the fact that many, including myself, consider them to be faulty in their judgments anyhow) is nearly futile.
Edit: I want to point out that I prefer the ELO rankings, and the calculation principles can be seen below. Note our position in them is a bit higher.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Football_Elo_Ratings
The thing that peeves me with FIFA's ranking system is that last factor - strength of confederation. It pretty much always plays out that UEFA/CONMEBOL have the maximum value and everybody else has the minimum. Since the average of the two strengths is what's applied to any points gained from the match, you're already missing out on points if you're not in one of the top two confederations.
For example, US beating Germany last year was worth ~7% less than if another European team did so: C = (1.0 + .85) / 2 = 0.925 vs C = (1.0 + 1.0) / 2 = 1.0. Same thing with our recent win against Costa Rica: C = (0.85 + 0.85) / 2 = 0.85 vs C = (1.0 + 0.85) / 2 = 0.925. And all the matches we've played since the strength of confederation factor has been part of the calculations. Near impossible for any non-UEFA/CONMEBOL team to ascend the rankings when your point calculations are handicapped by this ridiculousness.
I'd also argue that friendlies shouldn't be weighted as lightly as they are, but understand the reasoning since nobody hardly plays those at full strength and they're more for experimenting with lineups/tactics. Plus, I'm a bit biased since I've seen the US knock off a ton of quality teams in frendlies with hardly any change in rankings.
It's a system (that's not perfect) that shows that there can be international progress. I'm not saying that #18 kills #30 every time. I'm saying that there are international squads that have gone from near #100 to top 15. No matter how you look at the rankings, that's progress. The USMNT has not been able to maintain (even in a broken ranking system) despite making the WC consistently. Its a way to compare navel oranges to blood oranges. That's all.
At the end of the day, I do expect more out of our squad. I'm pleased after last nights win, but there's a lot of futbol left to be played.
I believe we were ranked 43 in the World Elo rankings in 2011 when Jurgen took over. Now we're 21st. That's also a way to compare teams, and it looks pretty great.
Just for my figures, comparing:
Highest ELO during calendar year vs (FIFA yearly ranking)
USMNT 2002-#15 (#10), 2005-#11 (#8), 2009-#10 (#14), 2013-#67 in Jan, #11 in Aug (#14), now #21 (#31)
Belgium, low in 2009-#64 (#66), to #9 (#1) in 2015 and #12 (#2) currently
Chile, low in 2002/2003 #60 (#84) up to #5 (#5) in Oct 2015 and #11 (#5) currently
Austria, low in 2007-#63 (#94) up to #16 (#10) in Oct 2015 and tied with us at #21 (#10) currently
The ELO are fluid and moving more frequently and with more volatility. The FIFA rankings are a broad stroke across a calendar year. Definitely different approaches. Belgium, Chile, and Austria have all moved up substantially, while we've yo-yo'd around over the same time. When you have ups and downs like that, it doesn't show true progress in the entire system.
You do realize that the United States has zero players of the pure caliber of Alexis Sanchez, Kevin de Bruyne, and David Alaba, right? It's all well and good to want improvement and we could use one system or another to argue that, but we simply don't have the talent to be in the same class as those squads on a consistent basis. Those guys are those countries' versions of Megatron and Steph Curry.
Yes, I get that. And that's part of the problem.
And you get that they are working off a population base that is a percentage of what the US's is. Why can't we seem to find a de Bruyne? I have a feeling he may be sitting on the bench in Pulisic, but he needs to be on the pitch playing. Not having Jurgen talking in generalities to find his game and embrace it...
And I won't go so far as to say we don't have the talent. We have a lot of talent. It's how it's used and managed.
Pulisic could be a good player during his career, but he's nowhere near those mentioned right now. Not even in the same stratosphere.
And yeah, we have some talent. But we don't have talent that matches up with the 20 best teams in the world. There's really no other way to put that. I think expecting that kind of result at this stage is folly. We'd fire every manager.
Why? We were #10 in 2009, #15 in 2002, #11 in 2013!!! Why can't we expect or cultivate or support or maintain a top 15 team in the world? NOT expecting a top tier team is giving up. And I'm not prepared to do that.
Again, I'm not prepared to say we don't have the talent. I am willing to say they haven't been prepared, but the talent level is up there. There are teams ahead of us in the top 20 that don't have the greatest talent, but play together as a squad and rise to the occasion despite their shortcomings. Again, we were #11 36 months ago...
My argument centers on consistency. We had some hot phases here and there but you're fooling yourself if you think we have the talent that teams like Argentina, Germany, France, Spain, The Netherlands, Colombia, etc. have. It's not giving up. It's not defeatist. It's realism.
Debruyne was not starting in competitive tournaments at 16 hell messi wasnt even starting matches at that age. To expect a player to come in and be amazing at 16 almost 17 is unrealistic. What we should be pushing for is occasional time in games. Which is what hes getting. Otherwise youll have another talent that just never pans out as he caves under the pressure.
Our back line did is no favors. There was always 1 guy playing to deep. For some reason we weren't playing up field like we needed to be, especially after going 2 down. And that can't be blamed on JK because he was screaming at the players to move up field. I said it earlier in this thread, Duece needs to play off the bench and not start and I believe if Jozy was healthy he would be. Stop flopping so much. Go back to a 4-4-2. Pull Clint and play 2 forwards, Zardes and Wondo. Put Zusi in to help the midfield so Jones can drop back when needed. Plus Zusi is better getting forward then Jones.
I agree, but I'd play Wood and Zardes, Wood has much better ball control and ability outside the box, making him more of a threat than Wondo.
The back line sucks no question. I'd play Besler and Cameron in the middle and play Brooks and Chandler out wide if possible. Don't know if Brooks has played out wide but I'm sure he'd be more effective than Yedlin.
Most importantly, we need Johnson in the midfield. He's a top 5 player on this squad and we're wasting him right now. Bradley and Bedoya were the weak links last game, but there's no telling how they do vs CR. Personally I'd sit Bradley to light a fire under his ass for the next game, leave Bedoya in and see what he can get going. Overall what I'd want to see is:
Back: Brooks, Besler, Cameron, Chandler
Mid: Bedoya, Nagbe, Jones, Johnson
Forward: Wood, Zardes
Subs: Dempsey, Zusi, Yedlin
if those are the four playing in the back, it'd have to be cameron out wide as i believe he has actually played some at right back in his career.
and i agree with nagbe and johnson in the midfield, though i'm certain whoever plays on tuesday will be better than what happened friday night
Agree. You can't pop a big boy on the wing. He'll get killed. Cameron has done it before and has skills. You need speed in the back. If you play big down the middle, think you need speed on the flanks. Speed down the middle, you can go big on the flanks.
Yedlin's coaches should be demoted. Horrendous that the kid is a professional and is turning away like that. It will take him a while to undo that and part of that while is taking some in the face. He ain't that pretty that he should be so concerned.
Having big guys manned up on set pieces is a bit of a bad strategy. You need to have some little guys marking where you have picks forming, switching immediately with the big guys when the teams adjust. U want big guys having carte blanche to aggressively get after the balls in the air. The little guys getting to the spot. Not that different than basketball. We only ended upside down one time on it, but these guys are very skilled guys. Hoping we can dominate the air game over the next two games. We should end up +2 on set pieces over the next two games.
JMHO
Yedlin screwed up, hes young it happens. Sam allerdyce is a great coach and has time and again put together some of the better defenses in the epl. Im personally ecstatic for yedlins development up to now and his progress moving forward
Yes. Big fan of Yedlin. That is a habit that has to be worked to be overcome. Not a big deal, til it costs you a PK. Don't blame in on Allerdyce. Comes down to habits you keep. Perhaps the Sounders coach had him long enough to tell him to work out the bad habit.
Can't wait to see him feature in a CL team where he is the outside back blowing up the other side's offense. If he works hard and smart he'll get there. Not sure which side plays that way any more. Laugh all you want I really wanted to see him at ManU. With Jose Parkthebus there that can never happen.
Bobby Wood needs to play central, its how he scored all season in Germany.
US gets some help with a nil nil draw between Costa Rica and Paraguay. Bonus red card to Costa Rica doesn't hurt either.
Hopefully we'll actually show up and beat both.
I'm not really upset with a loss to Columbia. I would be with a loss to either of those.
100% agree
given how meh both paraguay and costa rica looked, in a game mind you where the winner would have a stranglehold in the group I actually feel decent about the US chances of advancing.
Ecuador-Brazil was fun, but taking away that goal was a garbage call.
honestly i thought peru-Haiti was the most entertaining game of the day
Horrible call in the Ecuador game, both teams looked bad. Peru is underrated as hell, they could win the group imo.
The fact that this is linked on the MLS website makes it even more interesting:
Report: Plans to host Copa America in USA every 4 years under consideration
Not sure why it should be in the US every time. My guess it's because infrastructure, but if they were to do this, they need to go into smaller stadiums. No reason playing games in huge stadiums that aren't being watched. Sure Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, US will draw big crowds, especially closer to the borders, but the CRC/Paraguay game in Orlando was embarrassing. Why not play that in Columbus? A small stadium. A better pitch. Better weather. Gives the tournament more legitimacy.
Portland, Salt Lake, Denver, KC all deserve to be hosting. We have these gorgeous MLS specific stadiums, and more coming, play them there. Let the Rose Bowl host the opening and the final. Let Levi Stadium host a quarterfinal, but these games need to be in soccer specific stadiums.
Was just in Toyota Park in Chicago. Perfect size for these Haiti/Peru/Jamaica/Venezuela games.
My guess on the thinking behind it being hosted in the US every time: infrastructure and $$$. It's that simple really.
And I agree with you about utilizing soccer-specific stadiums, as there's lots of great venues that would look much better on TV being filled closer to capacity for these lesser-attended games. If Beckham ever gets his stadium built in Miami, it'd be a perfect place to host games for Haiti & Jamaica.
so would this replace Gold Cup and become a hemisphere tournament, or would it still be CONMEBOL+6 CONCACAF Teams with the Gold Cup still being played the years before and after (ugh). Gold Cup needs to be a 4 year cycle tournament if it's going to stick around, especially if the top 6 teams from CONCACAF will now be playing in Copa America moving forward. I guess ideally, understanding the odds of a full Copa America replacement of Gold up and being played for a year leading up to the final tournament, Gold Cup would be played the year after a World Cup with the 6 top teams from that tournament being invited to the following year's Copa America and then the year after that would be 100% focused on WC qualifying and Confederation's Cup for the last Gold Cup winner.
CONCACAF Cycle as envisioned by BUGGZY:
2018: World Cup and Caribbean qualification for Gold cup
2019: CONCACAF Gold Cup (with new consolation bracket to determine 5th and 6th place teams)
2020: Copa America
2021: Hex portion of WC qualifying and Confed Cup for 2019 GC winner
2022: World Cup and Caribbean qualification for Gold cup
The proposal being negotiated would be to merge Copa America and the Gold Cup into one tournament that is held every 4 years to fall in the middle of the World Cup layoff.
So basically....
2018 - World Cup
2018 post WC & 2019 - Western Hemisphere Tournament Qualifying
2020 - Western Hemisphere Tournament
2020 post WHT & 2021 - World Cup Qualifying
2022 - World Cup
Of course, the Olympics would be thrown in, but that's more a U-23 tournament, so its hard to include with the main master plan
THAT would be great! I'm skeptical they could pull that off without guaranteeing all 10 CONMEBOL teams a spot in the final tournament (no qualifying), but I'll start getting my hopes up!
I could see them getting really interesting with how they set it up
there are 10 CONEMBOL teams that all make Copa America, with 2 from CONCACAF as a special guest each time. With the Gold Cup, 12 of the 41 countries make it in.
I could see us going to a 20 or 24 team tournament with a group stage that consists of 5 or 6 groups of 4 teams. Top 2 from each group + wild cards advance to the knockout stages, where its single elimination.
Shouldn't really change things up too, too much for everyone involved, except by making it a bigger, more grand tournament, on the same scale as the one you see in Europe every 4 years.
Also, the details are scant right now, but I don't think they'll be taking away hosting rights for the 2019 & 2023 editions already awarded to Brazil & Ecuador.
My hope is that it's a long term play to better integrate the Western Hemisphere, and it may be beneficial to wait until 2024 to iron out some of the logistical issues.
This would be awesome. Would certainly bring more of a 'Euro' feel to the Western Hemisphere in the middle of the World Cup layover. Having this would also really help out the US in being better prepared for the World Cup, as we would essentially always be playing in or getting ready to play in games that matter, either for qualifying or the tournaments themselves, which would help keep our team at top form. Long term, this would be very good for us.
That said, this tournament should move around from country to country, but only to countries who can host without needing to build out infrastructure to do so like what happens with the Olympics or World Cup. That said, if this happens, and the US does host every 4 years, its a complete coup for the US Soccer Federation, and should really pay dividends for the popularity of the game stateside in the coming years.
sadly, we ARE the only country who can pull this off...
CONMEBOL has been blown away by the tournament already. better facilities, transportation, security, and most importantly, being paid on time by partners/vendors. You would think Brazil could host it, but the truth is, they can't without major corruption involved.
I wouldn't say that we're the only one capable of hosting something like that. Argentina hosted a successful Copa in 2011, Canada did well with last year's Women's World Cup and Mexico has a plethora of stadiums that you could use for a tournament like this.
Now not all those may not be on the same level as it being in the US (especially from a transportation/security standpoint), but it's not like some of those countries are that far off.
After the first set of games it's pretty clear that the four best teams in the tournament are: Argentina, Colombia, Mexico, and Chile; and I think in that order. All four can't make the semis (Mexico would play Argentina or Chile in the quarters), but I think we can expect to see three, or two at the very least.
After those teams it's hard to see much separation, as there's a giant group of teams that have played about the same in: Brazil, US, Ecuador, Peru, Costa Rica, Paraguay, and Uruguay. And at least two, likely three of those teams won't make it out of the group.
Go USA. Today's a must win.
Not necessarily a must win. We must get a point. Don't think Paraguay beats Colombia and don't think Costa Rica beats Colombia. If those results hold a draw against Costa Rica and a win against Paraguay will do the job.
I find a lot of the widespread criticism of not getting out of this group to be completely unfair. We're grouped with two quarterfinalists of the last World Cup and one of the most physical teams in the world. We should expect to get four points out of this group. Will it be enough to advance? We'll see. .
You're assuming in that scenario that a Colombia team with the top spot in the group already locked up would play their top players. Costa Rica against the Colombia B team has a good shot.
Colombia doesn't have the top spot locked up, they're only guaranteed to advance (if we win by 2 and Colombia loses we would take top spot on goal difference). even still, we probably just have to draw vs Paraguay to get through since we have 3 out of the likely 4 points needed
I posted this before the US-Costa Rica game.
Bit of bad luck the other night. Will be interesting to see blend of youth vs experience tonight.
We're back on track +2, maybe +3 if he goes with youth.
i keep trying to go all in with US soccer and every time i leave frustrated. but ill keep comin back
Wasn't expecting that for a half. Slight gift of a PK, then two really solid goals.
Well...that was an ass-whompin.
America! Looks like we only need a draw in the final game to advance if columbia keeps this up
So it may be impossible to know when you're very young and want to be a running back in the NFL, that you will end up being a great high school rb, but your full size adult body is smaller than you expected. Reality sets in, you're 5'8 160, your chances of an NFL career are slim regardless of your athletic ability, but that same player in soccer does not have the artificial height/weight limitations. That speed, suddenness, and body control coupled with playing soccer from a young age, developing great touch, and in game understanding could become a USMNT starter.
It doesn't take an expert to realize that our best athletes aspire to play football and basketball. But soccer has become more popular recently. Hopefully more kids start playing soccer at a young age, even if it's their second choice to football/basketball, we may end up with more elite athletes choosing to pursue soccer as they get older.
This is far from a novel observation, I'm sure everyone is aware of this, it's just always bugged me. I know a few guys I grew up that were absolutely unreal athletes that were just a little too small or a little too short and missed out on a college education/real shot at a career as an athlete that could have been the best soccer players in the state if they had been kicking a ball around since they were 4-5 years old. That's not to downplay the difficulty of becoming a great soccer player, that's to highlight that those same kids born in another country where the best athletes play soccer, might have had a real shot.
We'll get there some day.
Honestly, I think that US TV networks heavily investing in soccer programming might make the biggest difference in the long run. There's a chance we'll look back in 20 years and credit a lot of the growth to NBC and the Premier League.
NBC and the original Fox Soccer Channel. Growing up I never paid a lick of attention to soccer. Then living in the dorms they had the Fox Soccer Channel on the VT cable and it got me hooked. Now I watch every Liverpool match I can thanks to NBCSN and FS1.
It's amazing how much the wage difference are between England and the rest of Europe because of the TV contracts.
I agree with and would add that hosting the World Cup again will help tremendously. I was 10 and was lucky enough to attend a couple of games at RFK. Hosting the WC again can create another generation of players/fans for us.
thank you, this is how we'll become consistently great, when the top young athletes start seeing soccer as a possible career path rather than an activity in the spring/fall to stay in shape until basketball/football/baseball season. it's a cultural thing, most european kids grow up idolizing soccer players, thats not typically the case in the US i imagine
Haha no its not (typically the case that is) and we wont have players getting idolized till we shed this bs "its not a mans sport" superiority complex that some people have in this country
It really is strange that so many people view it that way. That said, I do think that the perception is changing, and it better change eventually, because there really is no guarantee we will have football, as we know it at least, forever.
I've never understood that line of thinking either.
I was watching Europa League games at Thanksgiving one year, and my uncle saw someone embellishing a tackle and said something along the lines of "How can you watch this sport when guys are acting like pansies?" I just said, "So you're telling me there's any difference to basketball players flopping, or when football players sit on the field to stop play for a muscle cramp?" That generally shuts up detractors for a bit.
There's always going to be some element of gamesmanship in every sport, but I think soccer tends to get the "soft" label more in our country because on average the athletes are smaller. Dudes who are 6'8" banging in the post or 300 lb lineman cracking skulls play after play are just inherently tougher, I mean, EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT.
Let me just say that the new uniforms are a vast improvement over the other recent attempts. Still think we should bring back the Where's Waldo look.
The white ones. Not the black. They look like a walking bruise with black, blue, and maroon.
Ugh...Nike has had a few acceptable kits over the years, but it's mostly been fail after fail.
I liked the '06 home whites with the red and blue vertical stripe.
I liked the Centennial Kits
In general, national teams should be instantly recognizable (esp in their home kit) when anyone turns on the TV. Sadly, the US doesn't really have much in the way of an established jersey history (i think we change looks more than some club teams historically), but we could establish a basic mold.
Home: White top, Navy Shorts, White socks
Away: Navy Top, White shorts, Navy Socks
If they want to get creative within that mold with some stripes, etc, it should be ok, but don't change the overall look.
also, the crest...while anything would be an improvement over the 90's flying ball crest with all its wrong colors and meaningless symbols, i feel like Nike and USSF went with the smallest improvement possible. It has ZERO character. Just adapt the original/centennial shield crest for a modern look. NO ONE complained about the centennial crest or kits. in fact, i feel like they were the most liked thing Nike has ever given us.
and on that note: Nike...look around the globe this year. All they did was hand everyone the same kits with different colors/shades. I'm so sick of their cookie cutter crap. England should look like England and France like France (and the US shouldn't just be wearing an adaptation of the England and France kits). Adidas, Puma and even Marathon are putting out great, unique kits for most of their top clients. Nike is just pumping out carbon copies. Brazil's home yellow was the only sacred kit unharmed by Nike, but even their away blues are just a copy of the England/France/USA stripey shoulder thing...it's horrible.
Nike already came up with an awesome crest for US Soccer. But of course, it was never used....
i have liked the snake and ball logo. i wonder if we didn't use it in the federation crest because of the integrated swoosh? while i like the snake, i don't want the slogan or a 5 stripe shield (5?). that said, finding a way to integrate a snake, or an eagle, or something, anything symbolically meaningful would be a huge step forward.
USA on a 13 stripe shield....i mean, i get it, but c'mon, man...
I like it, and not putting the Eagle on there is fine with me...DC United and Germany already have that.
But, I will say this is pretty sharp.
And this is pretty sweet too.
Of course the eagle in the last one needs tweaking...13 feathers on each wing and all.
i just want something USSF...the current crest could be an olympic logo used by all sports, US Soccer needs its own.
That's why I liked the Red and White horizontal stripes and navy shorts. You can't get much more America than that.
What you just saw was a mentally strong team (after Yedlin removed himself, idiot) winning a game 10 vs. 12 (the ref was not on our side tonight, there's little doubt about that).
We may even win the group still. On to Brazil/Peru probably.
yedlins first yellow was complete bs...the second i agree with I really dont think you can lash out on him that hard
The first was harsh, but it certainly doesn't absolve him of being a complete idiot 30 seconds later. He made that too easy for the ref.
or he slipped on the field, that ref got way to card happy, and was not consistent at all. As a ref the number one rule is consistency, and given a few of the fouls given on wood there should've been a few more cards dished out. The number two rule is to avoid fluctuating a game based on your opinions. He broke both of those, and as a result you got a really chippy affair that didnt deserve to be so. The ref made a huge difference in the game and that should never be an issue. He should have given yedlin a final warning on the second yellow and realized that his first was kind of soft. If you give the guy a final warning and he does it again, ok send him off, but 1) that gives the player a chance to cool his tits, and 2) gives the coach a chance to make a substitution. A red card is a HUGE deal that can not only change the way a game is played but also the outcome, and that should be saved for drastic decisions. I dont think yedlin deserved that, did he make a stupid decision? Sure, that deserves a yellow, did he make two or something so egregious that he deserves off for 1.5 games? No
Bottom line is it was really dumb to be going in recklessly after getting the first yellow, whether that one was warranted or not. Gotta be smarter than that. Anyone who has watched USA play in Concacaf knows that this happens when we get latino refs against latino teams.
I agree and disagree. To me he slipped I don't believe Yedlin intended to make contact. I would have liked to see him be more cautious since the ref was being whistle/card happy however to that point the game had already gotten physically out of hand. If they are allowed to play at a fast tough pace to start the game then that should be the rule of thumb throughout. I believe as Yedlin progresses he will get more mature at handling himself. I was glad to see Orozco come in and play well for him which is good for next round. Also John Brooks was in complete Beast Mode!
Peru needs to win to guarantee advancement. If they draw, Ecuador could knock them out with a strong win over Haiti. If they lose, they need Haiti to win or draw. Given how Haiti has fared in their first two games, I fully expect Ecuador to have 5 points and the edge in goal differential at the end of the day. Brasil and Ecuador are most likely to advance.
Me? I'm rooting for wins by Peru and Ecuador so Brazil has to drag themselves home with tail between legs. Somemenjustwanttoseetheworldburn.gif
EDIT: WOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Sure, it was on a uncalled handball, but after getting a pass on mauling Peru in the box all game, we can call that karma.
Big big big result by Costa Rica. I'm really proud of our team showing such grit and determination after that first match. Now we sit and wait for either Ecuador or Peru (thinking Ecuador) on a days rest and in Seattle. Winning the group is huge just to get a match in Seattle. Hopefully those crazy Sounder fans get up for that match.
USA proved me wrong, and I'm glad to admit it!
If I hear one more old player say this team doesnt have heart....what they did takes a lot of guts, I think its something like 11% of teams that lose the first game advance; let alone win the group. Thank you Costa Rica. Also I'd like to discuss the tournaments biggest disappointment thus far (Uruguay). They look like a different team top to bottom without him on the field. Its amazing. I dunno what it is but for whatever reason Edison Cavani really lacks that killer instinct, he doesnt have the teeth to sink into a game (see what i did there?)
can we also start to discuss the next game? What do you think we do without yedlin or wood able to play. does wondo start?
To your last statement, I really hope not. Not sure what I'd rather see, but I don't want to see Wondo.
I'm thinking 4-4-2 again, Dempsey and Zardes up top; with Bedoya, Bradley, Jones, and NAGBE at mid; I'd also like to see Chandler out wide to replace Yedlin, but only the coaches know if he's in form.
Id be ok with this. Thats kind of what I had in mind...also hahahaha Brazil pulled an England
i also think we see chandler out wide (the other option being besler as CB and cameron going right but you dont want to mess with the chemistry i think).
i think what you laid out is the best option but i could also see them going with a 4-3-3 having dempsey as the center forward while inserting zusi/pulisic/nagbe in a wide position
I'm with you on this, I think the formation goes largely unchanged but Dempsey will be pushed forward and someone else will come in behind or out wide.
It's not the ideal scenario (I don't like Dempsey with his back to the goal) but it's probably the best we can do with our situation at striker. Curse Altidore's injury woes.
Wondo in an opening game of the elimination round... what's the worst that could happen...
Oh, right...
That 100% should have been at least on frame, if not in the back of the net, but I seem to recall the offsides flag was up anyways.
Nope. Onside by a mile. Difficult finish. Unfair to Wondo really.
I think it's fair, honestly. His whole game is based on poaching goals. That was as poachable as opportunities come. haha.
I hold no ill-will towards him personally, but I don't think he's good enough to be getting minutes in the international stage. Unfortunately, we're thin up top.
Deep into extra time in a scoreless World Cup elimination game and the ball finds his foot clean and in the clear. He missed the net by a nautical mile.
If you're not even going to be able to put the ball on goal there why are you on the roster, especially when you are brought in to score goals. He's a good MLS player, but shouldn't be on the USNT.
You can't honestly believe that ball hit his foot cleanly. He had to lunge, putting him off-balance, directing the ball upward where it hit the top of his foot instead of near the bottom. A combination of mistiming and misfortune there.
You're not going to get an opportunity much cleaner that far into the box. And I don't care how tough the play looks, he's paid to be one of the top scorers in the country, when you get that kind of opportunity, you have to capitalize. He literally trains his entire career for an opportunity like that, and he played the ball about as poorly as you could. He gagged.
And those things happen in every game. A post here, a phenomenal save there, a bad touch and a missed call. Yes, that's the difference between a win and a loss/draw, but that's part of the game too. It's time to move on.
Judge for yourself. Any competent pro should be able to finish this. Wondo f*cked up.
It's not an easy shot, but I agree, to play at a high level you have to ahve players who make plays like that one when the opportunity presents itself.
That said, we, by the grace of Tim Howard's superhuman game, avoided possibly the most lopsided loss in World Cup history during that game so I'm glad it went as well as it did. They put an ungodly number of shots on goal. If we had won that game, it wouldn't have been because we were the better team.
Yeah when I watch this gif a few times two big things pop into my head.
One, Belgium's defenders are picking dandelions. I would be furious with them if I were their coach.
Two, the biggest problem with the shot Wondo takes is that it isn't on frame. I would be less disappointed in the effort if he had played it directly towards the keeper, who is a bit outside his line of sight as he focuses on the ball, but he should at least get it on frame. If the keeper stops it, it's better. But he missed the whole goal.
hips are pointed up and the foot will follow.. that should have been an easy finish for a professional player 10 times out of 10. Wondo is only on the roster because US has some pretty poor choices for forwards.
Easy finish? There's a reason volleys and half volleys are generally considered for goals of the season. It's not like this was a tap it. Yes, he probably should have went for power, but when you see the goalkeeper out of the corner of your eye you think you have to get it over him. It's a difficult finish. It wasn't a ball on the ground that was a tap in.
If you want to blame him, blame him for not heading it in. Much easier finish to the far corner.
Nah, I'm going to continue to blame him for missing the shot the way he intended. I can't agree that it's nearly as complicated as you're making it sound. That should be a goal 100% of the time for a professional striker, especially one who's strength is poaching goals.
the dude is known for being a poacher, and speaking from experience that isnt that ridiculous of a volley to make. We're not talking about a 40 yarder from outside the box on a half bounce. we're talking about a ball that fell directly to his foot, he had the goalie off balance diving across the face of goal (also speaking from experience thats a damn near impossible save. what they teach in keeper school these days is basically for the love of god dive and hope you get something because its not your fault your defenders fudged up.) he didnt have to put that much power on it. OK if he puts the ball on frame and courtois makes a wonderful save, thats more understandable but YOU HAVE TO PUT THAT ON FRAME. I'm not saying we damn the dude's entire career for that, but he hasn't exactly been great outside of that opportunity. However I would agree that tim howard almost single handedly kept us in that game. the man was spectacular and we did not deserve to win. However if you ever have a poacher in that position I'd expect them to make that shot. I can list probably 50 players that would hit that 10 times out of 10
Ronaldo's has missed those finishes. Messi has missed those finishes. Klose, Rivaldo, Henry, it's not an automatic goal. People miss. Yes, we expect players to finish, or at least hit the target, from that close just like I expect Steph Curry to hit a free throw, but he misses sometimes. That moment happens in the 55th minute and no one remembers it.
Obviously we disagree in the difficulty of the finish, which is fine. We can unite around the QF in Seattle. Vamos.
god watching it again he had a bajillion options the dude couldve squared it to dempsey if he was worried about the courtois save!!!!!!!
if wondo starts we riot
Why would Wood not be able to play? He received one yellow card in the Paraguay game and wasn't carded in the other two games so he's not suspended. I don't remember him getting injured either. I thought he was taken out due to running so much up top by himself and for us to put a more defensive player in (Beckerman).
I swear he got carded earlier, but just looked back and he hadn't.
Crisis averted then.
The USMNT wins their group after losing their opening round match b/c Colombia gets a case of the stupids vs the Ticos, and then Ecuador and Peru advance over Brazil by one of the most blatant handballs I have ever seen. So delightfully unpredictable! Love seeing the mighty stumble and the downtrodden ascend. Now somebody just needs to knock off Argentina and it's anybody's cup to steal.
Valencia looked frightening in the open field. Not sure we have anyone without a redcard suspension with the pace he has. I kinda hope we pack it in and bang on him for the first 20-30 minutes. I'd love to see our midfield control possession, but with the current starters I don't think that is possible to start the game... just won't be able to withstand the pressure. Hopefully if we can withstand the first half hour we can have already counterattacked or can start to normalize possession with a not so menacing Valencia. Jurgen seems to be building our boys up with a lets play like a favorite talk. Mebbe next game?
After the missed handball call in the Peru/Brasil game, the announcers were talking about how long the refs took to consult on the call. One of the commentators said, "People complain about how long replay officials take in other sports, but at least when they take that long, they come back with the right call." Danny Coale would like a word...
Its soccer circa 2016. Clearly the referees were using Internet technology to conduct an auction.
Are you insinuating that FIFA has an integrity problem? Sepp Blatter is not amused. How dare you malign the great game with your spurious insinuations! Somebody ought to...............never mind
Did Sepp Blatter change his name to avoid charges? Honestly wouldn't surprise me at all.
Oops, my bad on old Sepp. Reduce his eventual sentence by a year for suffering my old-timer's disease
Men in Blazers once told a story about an interaction between Robin Williams and Blatter where Williams kept calling him "Seth". It eventually ground Blatter down and he stormed off saying "SCHTOP CALLING ME SETH!" If I'm not mistaken, that happened at the party after this:
Robin Williams was amazingly, hilariously relentless. We should have followed his lead years ago.
So, I turn on tonight's game and notice Ecuador's abbreviation in the scorebox...
"Ah, fuck!!! Here we go!!!"
And it's in f'n yellow....
And that game was as stressful as a VT vs. ECU game too.
Damn. That's the best we've looked in a while. Bobby Wood is so confident with the ball right now, our midfield spacing is solid, our defense has looked good. Let's keep this form for another half.
Bradley needs to step it up. Everyone seems to be playing well except him. He's had two awful giveaways and the 2nd one should have been a goal for Ecuador.
Thought he played well. After the cards, I think they should have taken Wood out (yellow) replaced him with Nagbe. Dreadlocks is just too old too slow and never offered any skill on the ball at the ECU level. Very hard to push the dishevelment on Bradley. Nagbe would have slowed it down in the midfield (with his footskills) and brought alot more pace. U can't lose a guy like Jones and rep him with Dreadlocks, who just brings experience. D would have tightened and we would have caught them on a counter with Nagbe in the game.
I wrote that comment at halftime and Bradley was much better in the 2nd half. We need that 2nd half from him for entire games though. Interesting point on Nagbe, I think you're right that he would have been a good sub last night to help with the counter since Ecuador was sending everyone forward.
Stupid, stupid move by Jones...cannot believe he did that. Now we lose him for the semi-finals if we win.
Yep, terrible terrible terrible decision making by a "veteran" of the USMNT. With that said, I'm more worried about not having Bobby Wood. He's done so much right tonight, and in the tournament in general.
As I was typing that, Bedoya got his 2nd yellow, so he's out now.
As I was typing THAT, Ecuador just scored. Where's my beer.
The discipline of this team is absolute garbage.
So many unnecessary cards the last 2 games. If we get punked because of who isn't playing, we deserve it.
These fouls are so infuriating. Win or lose they are in a bad spot next round, and most completely uncalled for
Well, we pulled out the win, but it sure wasn't pretty after the double-red-cards. This is a frustrating win in my opinion. Losing Bedoya and Jones for the semi isn't good, nor was our play super spectacular. Kept losing possession in key situations (looking at you for the most part Bradley). A win is a win though, no matter how you get there, I'd say Copa America has largely been a success for us!
To be fair were playing Argentina....doesnt matter whose on the field were going to be outclassed, theyre hands down the tournament favorite. The question is if we can get a goal on a break and grit our way to a win.
Losing wood hurts...losing jones hurts A LOT but it at least gives us an excuse to.play pulusic or nagbe. I see a 4-4-2 lineup with beckerman taking Jones's spot and zardes and dempsey up top. Put pulusic and nagbe on the wings. At least yedlin is back. His pace will be HUGE for messi
Hey Jurgen. I DARE you.
Beckerman will get owned all night long. No pace no skill. He would probably admit that he will just plug outside back holes and push them forward. Perhaps the only virtue of having him back there.
Bradley holding... Nagbe center mid, Pulisic with him. Put someone anyone in the outside slot besides Beckerman. Chandler if still on team? Or push Johnson up and replace him with Besler??? Little scared of Besler there, though.
We are playing Argentina.
Nooo no timmy chandler I used to follow him a lot and hes frankly just not up to it... Nor do I think hes even on the copa roster. Maybe push fabian up on the wing to give us more defended minded players on the pitch?
I think fabian is supposed to be a real offensive threat from the wing on his German team. Think mid but I guess could be D. Replacing Fabian at D with Besler is giving up quite a bit on D. Argentina has a mixture of guys with pace and not alot of pace. Besler could luck out but if Argentina is smart they target him with pace and isolate him.
I like the idea but argentina would SCHOOL us with this lineup. Like they would seriously take us to the woodchippers. As much as a fan as I am for pulusic and nagbe they arent particularly defensively responsible players. Jones is gonna be a toughie to replace
I don't think we get to see it, but I think Bradley can make it work. Bradley before coming back to US was a worldclass defensive midfielder. Not sure we have a world class player on the US roster at this point. Don't get me wrong we're getting better in spots, just hard to be a world class player in anything.
Woods and Jones... may be a bridge too far. Crossing fingers. Will never say another bad thing about German head coaches if we can beat Argentina.
They wouldn't "take us to the woodchippers" anymore than if we try to plug our 4-4-2 with players off the bench. Someone mentioned playing Fabian Johnson at LM, but that would mean Besler at LB. I would much rather have Johnson back there trying to stop Higuain, Di Maria, Kun Aguero, and Messi than Besler.
I threw that lineup out jokingly because it's an aggressive formation, but the more I look at it, the more I'm talking myself into it. A lineup like this 4-3-3 would help us condense the game to the middle of the field and squeeze off chances if the ball got outside. It would allow us to defend high up the field in hopes of denying their playmakers the ball from the start. One thing Bradley is good at is helping on defense. So when the forwards press, Bradley has always been solid to draw the contested pass one way and challenge that pass. I've watched Nagbe a lot for Portland this year and he does the same (against MLS competition, but it's the only sample we have to work with). If we did this, we would get beat 3-0, but it might lead to a couple fun chances!
Similarly, they could go with a 5-3-2 that free flows into a 4-4-2 on the counterattack. Pushes them centrally on defence and allows either Fabian or Yedlin to get forward depending on what side of the field the ball is on when counterattacking.
Well we won, but with all these suspensions, this next game is gonna get messi.
Great win but we need a lot more discipline. Missing Wood, Jones and Bedoya is going to hurt us. Thankfully we get Yedlin back at RB. Besler was good enough at LB tonight so he'll probably play there in the semis which will free up Johnson to play in the midfield.
One big factor and positive for us is that we get two more days of rest and practice than Argentina / Venezuela.
Good win. As for the fouls... This is concacaf.
Also think Jones got a pretty raw deal. But hey. That first goal... That was a thing of beauty. You want evidence of what Jurgen has brought to our team, there is a bit of it.
I didn't see what he did til finally they showed an angle that was very clear. I was thinking that he got Brooks' yellow. He just totally lost his head for a second. For me thats a toss because a guy should have the right to defend himself and he started with a punching motion. Should have stayed away and watch Valencia take his medicine. Now frankly if we don't get Nagbe to play with Bradley (maybe Pulisic, haven't seen him play mid)... we're gonna get destroyed with Becks in there. And everyone will blame Bradley.
Your last point is all so true, it hurts. haha.
Being completely honest, even with a full lineup, we'd be asking a lot to come out on top of Argentina. You're talking about a team at or above Colombia's level, and as I've said several times, we don't have the horses to consistently run with those levels of skill. Of course there's always the chance for an upset, but realistically we've done everything we could be expected to in the tournament already.
Isn't the Copa run by CONEMBOL?
Normally, but this one is a joint deal between the two. Concacaf has been more vocal this time around about the proceedings (we are hosts after all).
Jermaine is out for the rest of his tournament because of his straight Red.
As I said, our discipline is shit. Against Paraguay, we come out in the second half after Jurgen stresses we need to stay disciplined, and we're immediately playing with 10 men after Yedlin picks up 2 yellows in the first what, 90 seconds of the second half? And then it was a Yellow Card party after that, with seemingly half the team picking up one. Then, we come out against Ecuador, punk them throughout the first half, force Valencia into his second yellow, putting us up a man with the lead, and what happens... Jones makes contact with the face, causing an immediate red and disqualification for the remainder of the tournament. Then Wood gets carded, earning a suspension for the next game. Then Bedoya does the same. All because we allow ourselves to get suckered into committing stupid shit by a team we have on the ropes.
I'm not sure I've seen a team get so thoroughly outclassed mentally over the course of a tournament. There was no reason for any of this shit, in both games the US already had the upperhand, and would have done far, far more damage to the opponent by simply walking away, and instead... well, now we're likely playing Argentina down 3 starters a game after already playing without one.
I mean, what the fuck
I honestly don't think it's nearly as upsetting as you do, but either way, what's done is done.
Jermaine Jones, for his entire career, has been a wrecking ball and you ALWAYS run that risk when you field him. He's there to be an enforcer and sometimes he loses his cool.
As for the rest of the team (Yedlin and Wood included, not as much Bedoya but speaking in a general sense) we're pretty young. And there's a big chip on this team's shoulder right now. They do stupid things a lot right now but when you look at it, we're set up to be a pretty dang good squad in the future.
Yeah, the team certainly has a bunch of talent right now, but I am worried about the complete lack of discipline. The guys that are hurting us with these cards really should know better. JJones, I understand that he's a wrecking ball, but he HAS to understand he just won the mind game over Valencia, and back off and move to the next one. We're lucky that stunt didn't come back to bite us harder than it did.
I am certainly looking forward to what the team has to offer in the future. Their attacking game has been a lot better the last few games than I've seen in a long while. Which is good, and will only help the popularity of the game here in the US. I never really did like the whole 'defend defend defend, beat you with the counterattack' mindset we had, even despite the relative success it provided.
I used to feel that way about Jones as well, but I gave up. Fortunately his play has progressed enough that I am mentally fine dealing with his transgressions, because I used to hate seeing that guy in the lineup because I was sure we'd be down to 10 men eventually. But now he fills a role that makes it worth the risk, in my mind.
It wouldn't really be an issue now except that Beckerman is probably his backup. Bleh. Although I don't think Jones over Beckerman is the final piece needed to beat Argentina or anything.
Side note: Guzan has been masterful in this tournament if you ask me and he's not getting a lot of mention. Just wanted to tip my hat there.
Yes he has. Probably has to do with all the constant practice he's been getting in goal being Villa's keeper this year..............
But yeah, its nice to see, because I'm certainly confident in our hopes in goal beyond Howard. Seems like the US always has someone of legit quality at keeper, which is certainly a good situation to have.
It doesn't bother me that much either, but I also think a lot of the aggressiveness is direct instruction from Jurgen. Before the Paraguay game, he came out and said that they were going to be aggressive, attack and that that he wasn't going to accept the underdog mentality.
I've been critical of him (in this thread, no less), but I do think he's found something that works with this team right now. For better or worse, they're playing with lots of emotion and heart. And I think Klinsmann has figured out that's the best way to motivate this team. Hell, Jurgen's even played cheerleader the last two games, waving his arms to try and pump up the crowd.
It's not ideal that we'll have some guys out due to card accumulation, but I'm okay with it since it got us this far.
I think if we refine this tough guy attitude we have you could be looking at a team with the steel of the Germans about a decade ago. I don't think we'll see the kind of brutal efficiency they played with, but we can get the toughness part.
Hey ill take it, even being mentioned in the same sentence as the german national team is great news for us
Sorry I think we are way underrated right now and have proved it even with the cards/send offs the last couple of games. I fully believe we can put 11 players on the field who can play with Argentina for 90 minutes. You look at the posture and demeanor of this team when they take the field and you can tell the believe it too. I would start Zardes high with Dempsey tucked in. Let Zardes run all over and keep their back 4 honest. Put Nagbe, Bradley, Beckerman, and Zusi in behind. Back line Johnson, Cameron, Brooks, Yedlin.
We keep having these kids show up getting signed by top clubs and we're kinda like? Who? How old? Chelsea... Borrussia Dortmund ... Arsenal (not on the top team)... Bournemouth (not quite a top club but EPL)...etc..
I love that these kids have found their way to Europe and are finding ways to be successful. That is hope for the future. The more kids in these spots... the more likely a couple blow up like Wood. Thats how you end up with a good national team, and a team with enough depth to survive the card situation.
Kills me that our best gets developed elsewhere but eventually perhaps we'll have some coaches who churn out superstars. IMHO we've had and have coaches who churn out great teams (not international level teams)... they get the best jimmies joes and put them into a decent system. Show me the coach who starts putting kids into the Champions League, etc, etc. consistently. Thats when the youth system in the US will be healthy. As of now for aspiring US soccer players... get on a boat and find a team in Europe... listen, work hard and see if you can't find your dream job.
off the top of my head, Pulisic was developed at PA Stars and Zelalem at Bethesda Olney. They're being developed here and foreign club scouts are finding them. Hopefully the growth of MLS academies and more foreign scouts showing up in the US will someday make ODP programs a thing of the past. Kids will just flow through clubs' academies and be called in to national team camps when they come of age for that (U15?). Skip the middle man with his hand out...
Sorry man, but to say were even in the same ballpark just isnt true. If we play argentina id be surprised if we win 3. I just dont want anyones expectations to get to high and then to be disappointed because by all accounts this has been a VERY succesful tournament
Most talented team that the U.S. has had ever. Argentina are a very good side. Their attack is the best in the world, but their defense can be quite suspect at times. The narrative that the U.S. are minnows (not saying you said this, but the general interwebz idea is that Argentina are head and shoulders above us) against mighty Argentina just simply isn't true.
Would I put money on us to win, no. Do I think we will win, no. Would I be shocked if we won, no. This team is good and still has yet to allow a goal from the run of play in the tournament.
Sure we have to make some changes due to suspension, but I don't think they'll be THAT big. Think Besler stays at left back, Yedlin gets back in the team, Johnson moves up and takes Wood's spot on the wing, or wide midfielder if we go 4-4-2. Nagbe slots in for Jones and Zusi for Bedoya. The depth of this team is quite good.
This team has done what was expected of them. There are no moral victories here. A win would be massive. A loss disappointing.
Most talented us team ever is a stretch. Bradleys world cup team that lost to ghana has that title still in my opinion and the one before that was pretty talented too. Im not crazy over donovan but you cant question the dudes talented. Beasley, altidore, bradley, howard, oneywu (ac milan 15 million prospect)
And to say argentinas defense is suspect isnt fair either. Otamendi is a really good center back and so is garay, the weakest point is hands down their keeper. If we win its going to be against the run of play. That team is loaded from front to back, their midfield, their back line is all REALLY good. I have seen some REALLY promising things this tournament from our team, and am really pleased with the youth movement, I just dont think were there yet. I like nagbe and zusi but they just arent of the same caliber player as di maria messi banega or higuain. To think so is kinda biased.
As far as the moral victories point there sure are. People were saying klinnsman needed to go before the tournament. Do you hear anyone saying that now? No, that by definition is a victory in my books. We preformed well enough to navigate out of a tough group despite an early setback and have shown once again we are no minnow and as a result nobody thinks our coach and team are deserving of being cut anymore
I still think Klinsmann needs to go :)
Why?
Youre in the vast minority and id love to hear your reasoning
because america has a larger population than colombia, belgium, and germany and we didn't beat them so he must suck!!!!!
/s
Oh boy,El Tri got the shit kicked out of them yesterday.
What a wonderful event that was
I'm a little bummed only because I was thinking USA/Mexico here for 3rd place at University of Phoenix stadium would have been real fun.
But only a little bit disappointed. Still anticipating the US playing again out here and going to go either way.
Amazing. And nobody saw that beatdown coming, which makes it even more so.
As long as the USA doesn't take a butt-kicking of that magnitude to Argentina, I'll consider advancing further than Mexico the biggest win of this tournament.
Shore up midfield play, keep pace, capatilize on set pieces. I would tell them to take a shot if you have open space anywhere from 20 yards in and look for a rebound
Romero is a joke this is what we have to do, I like our odds to get a goal off Dempsey on a set piece. I just really hope klinnsman is cooking up something good on the chalk board because this is certainly the time to use it
I really hope we can upset Argentina, outside of Messi, they are kings of whining, complaining, flopping, goodness gracious you could breathe too hard in DiMaria's direction and he would flail to the pitch. Thoroughly enjoyed their loss to Germany in the WC Final.
Messi is one of the very very few exceptions but by and large almost all of South America is full of floppers and divers. It drives me nuts! South American teams are the worst offenders.
Agreed, and I'm not totally against it, if only because it is part of the game. There is some level of gamesmanship and setting up a free kick in good position can be the difference in winning and losing a game. That said, it's the flopping combined with how aggressively they overreact to everything, it's like a team full of that one kid who whines about EVERYTHING.
When I was in Europe a couple months ago watching the CL games at the bar everyone was asking me why Americans don't like soccer. I personally love the sport, but obviously it's not as popular in America as a whole. It was a game Ronaldo was playing in and he pulled one of his "I think I got hit by a steel chair" moments about 3 minutes in, I turned to them and said "That's why." I honestly get the hatred of soccer for the flopping and faking injuries, it annoys me too.
I think they should have a 5th official in the booth who is reviewing plays. When a player goes down and the ref misses the yellow card for diving that official should be able to tell the head official. Maybe it'll be a retroactive yellow, but I bet you see a lot less diving and that is by far the biggest problem with soccer right now.
Hate all this TV ification of refereeing.
Put two referees on the field and demand they stay closer to the action and that they card for flopping.
The problem comes for youth sports where you might then need a fourth ref. Just do away with the AR role for youth sports, put two or three referees on the field and let them actually get close enough to see what is going on.
We'll just settle this at the commisioner's office... what has happened to sports? We need 20 lawyers just to conduct any kind of major championship.
Proximity isn't the reason why referees have trouble catching all the flops. It's the speed at which the action happens. I don't think adding more bodies to the field is going to change anything.
Heck, assistant referees at the top level have the insane ability to catch incredibly close offside calls from across the width of the field. They're not infallible, but watching replays of a correctly called offside sometimes leaves me baffled (as a youth referee) as to how a human could catch that in real time.
Used to ref and hated when we did a two referee system without ARs. Offside calls are judgement, get most wrong to be honest.
As someone suggested, it's speed of play and not proximity. The reality is, out of 100 calls, referees get it right 97-98 percent of the time. Refs get some call wrong, but it's an extremely difficult job.
The reffing is an issue. And having two on the field would definitely help.
My son's high school team is playing with 2 refs on the field, but no side judges. Makes for an interesting game near the end sometimes when they are sucking wind and trying to cover over half the field by themselves.
There should be a better program to get kids and past players involved in it. A lot of the high school refs, for either school or travel/showcase games, are older and don't interact real well with the kids. Sometimes a few kinder words goes a long way. I mean they are getting paid $30 a game at the rec level, $75 range for high school, and above that for showcase. That's a heck of an hourly rate for extra income. Even if they hit the teams up for a little more, and make it $60 apiece, better reffing goes a long way, and helps protect the kids on the field.
Maybe in local high school/clubs, refereeing is an issue, but internationally it is not. When those sucking wind refs miss an offside call in the 89th because they aren't in line with the defenders, that's a huge issue.
I have no issue with throwing a second ref on the field for international games. The more eyes the better, and should allow for better positioning for a fast paced game.
Italy and spain have to be close seconds then haha
I can't refute that. But as a whole Europe isn't as bad as South America.
Copa officiating is almost as bad as Pac12 officiating or NBA officiating, or any other officiating for that matter. It will never be perfect, and your opinion of it often depends on whether or not it favors your teams stye of play, or your personally preference for how the game should be played. I hate they way PI and targeting today in football, contact is allowed in the NBA, fouls are not called in soccer unless you fall down, or that fighting is discouraged in Hockey. I however like the changes made to get more offense in MLB.
As someone who grew up before soccer was watched in the US, but with two boys who played travel soccer, refereed soccer, and are always watching it on TV, it appears the younger you are the more you understand that falling when fouled is part of soccer, and good acting is part of the game. The later in life you get into soccer, the more you equate flopping with something that takes away from the game, like the Duke flop in basketball.
I'm not exactly sure what you're responding to. I wasn't referring to the officiating. Just the flopping. South America is the worst (I think it's a cultural thing). And it's not just the flop, it's the whining and crying when the ref doesn't buy the flop. I grew up playing soccer and I've seen both sides of the flop up close. It happens. Sometimes you get fouled hard and it looks like a flop and isn't called. Sometimes you go down easier than you normally would and it gets called a foul. Depends on the ref. But every coach I ever had preached to all the players that they should just get up and keep playing. When guys go down and are writhing around in pain on the pitch and appealing to the ref for a call and whining and complaining when he doesn't blow the whistle that just irritates me. It's made far worse for me when they get up and start playing again like nothing happened. I get that acting is part of the game but when people embellish and carry on well after the alleged affront it has gone too far and is bad for the game IMO. I also hate when players talk back to the ref. He makes the calls and that's the end of the story. Shut up and play.
agreed, its tough moving full speed, case and point watch this. it really didnt look bad at the time and i was the first to say what a freaking flop, but at closer slower speed he clearly broke his leg. its REALLY hard sometimes full speed, but yeah south Americans and the Mediterranean European teams definitely embellish some stuff
" target="_blank">
yeah it's hard to tell sometimes. But that's not exactly what I was getting at. At least that guy wasn't show-boating and complaining to the ref that there should have been a foul call. He was legitimately hurt and he didn't even act like he was in that much pain. But when players go down and are obviously faking injury and disrupting the flow of the game it bothers me. Here is an example of a player feigning injury and being called out (accurately) for faking it. As a side note, I don't condone what the keeper did. It's dangerous (in the event that the player was actually injured) but it proves my point nonetheless.
I will say "going down easily with contact" is part of the game, and I can accept that. I prefer players who play through contact, but the fact is, the way refs call a game, if you fight through, you don't get the call, if you fall, you do. What is not acceptable to me is falling with no contact. straight up diving. that needs to be punished, and I am fine with it being a post match review and subsequent match suspension. I like the speed and fluidity of soccer, and am willing to accept some of the flaws that come with that, but if there are ways to change behavior (player and ref) without changing the flow of the game, I am all for that.
My wish list for soccer summarized:
1. if refs call more fouls when players won't fall, more players will try to play through fouls. players have to know/trust that should they lose the ball and not gain an advantage, that refs will call fouls even though they might still be on their feet. players have been conditioned to go down (unless they have a clear advantage) because more often than not, it's the only way to get the call.
2. because refs seem to associate players going down with there having been a foul, diving is also a conditioned part of the game for players. these can be tough calls for refs, but can easily be corrected through post match suspensions and fines.
3. this one is a little harder, but i would like to get over the top embellishment out of the game, too. I know going down easy is technically embellishment, but as i said, i can accept that. what i don't need is the flipping and flopping and screaming that makes you wonder if there is a sniper hitting hamstrings with .22 rounds. again, post match might be the best place to deal with this, but maybe refs give benefit of doubt on close calls to the defenders when this happens? i hate saying that, as they should call a foul when they see one, but i REALLY hate the over the top embellishment.
4. ref taunting/bullying. it has to stop. refs need to start issuing yellow cards IMMEDIATELY to any player without a captain's armband on who approaches them to argue a call (or argue for a call) and straight reds for any player who grabs, pushes or pulls the ref. it's an ugly part of the game that can easily be dealt with if we are willing to accept an adjustment period with lots of yellow and red cards until players learn.
5. replays: i am all for them if the tech doesn't slow games down. have a 5th official with a monitor in a booth on the same frequency as the ref and his linesmen. if he sees something quickly, he can chat with the ref who can decide to make a call, etc. this can happen in open play or during normal stoppages (there are plenty of them in soccer), but should NOT be an incremental stoppage. it should just work within the flow of the game. for goals, GLT seems to be working, so continue rolling that out to more leagues/competitions.
I completely agree with all of this
However 4 is already in the rules, refs just dont enforce it enough. You touch the ref, it is supposed to be a straight red unless its entirely incidental.
I also agree with 5 to an extent, but leave it strictly for penalties and BIG calls, if you stop a free kick as a team is trying to take it quickly to restart it, it can really disrupt flow. Gotta be really careful how you implement it
I don't mind going down easily. I know players do it and it's part of the game. That's not what I have an issue with. It's staying down (when you're not hurt) and complaining to the ref that you were fouled. Even if you get fouled you should still get up and keep playing until the whistle. That's how I see it. If you go down easily and the ref doesn't call it, too bad. Get up and move on. Sitting on the ground like a toddler and whining about it does no good for anybody.
agreed (and covered by my embellishment point above).
Poor Messi. He's arguably the greatest player of all-time. The amount of crap he gets over the national team losing these three finals is definitely lost on most Americans. The passion for the game over there is insane, and Messi takes the brunt of the blame when they lose. Anybody who has followed his career knows he was never truly accepted by the fans in Argentina and you can't help but feel bad for him. Watching him sit there yesterday after the loss was painful to see. I hope he doesn't actually retire because it's a treat to watch him play, but it'd be hard to blame him honestly.
Sounds like its just a threat so the AFA gets their crap together, but wouldn't be surprised if he just doesn't want to deal with the immense pressure anymore. He's literally done all he can for his country and just can't get it done. But if the squad stay together, and these retirement rumors of him, Aguero, Mascherano, ect, are just threats, they should be favorites in Russia.
They may be favorites if those players stick around, but with the hint of partially having a foot out the door, and the 23 year drought, I doubt they make it into the semis in Russia.
One would think that after having won 8 league and 4 Champions League titles, he would want to win something for the AFA to prove himself. Just sayin...