Saw this on SBNation - Every college football conference should scrap divisions. Here's the whole Power 5 plan.
The ACC has a mingled pile of identities, and its current divisions have neither coherence nor balance, largely because long ago someone decided Florida State and Miami must be kept apart. There are Southern football schools, teams from the Big East, private schools, and the North Carolina group, all piled haphazardly.
For the VT Annual opponents he kept LOLUVA, scUM, and GT. Who would you add as a 4th annual rival?
Do we go PITT, 'Cuse to remember the Big East days; ND, FSU, Clemson to up the strength of schedule?
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fsu or Clemson. want to know how we really stack up every year not just beat up on pretenders.
Admittedly, we haven't been beating up on anyone much lately
Louisville. With that many rotating spots especially if the ACC goes 9 conference games VT would see Clemson and FSU etc a lot more anyway.
a.) Never Pitt.
b.) We left the Big East for a reason.
Pitt is probably the best fit for a fourth, as much as I hate to say it. Clem and FSU would be better for us but there is no actual rivalry there. UNC would take LOLUVA over us. Probably gotta go with Pitt.
If strength of schedule wasn't a factor, I'd say it should be Syracuse. I mean, who could forget all those crazy games against them from the Big East days, many of which I'd like to forget. I just wish we would have beat them the times when we had them down, and McNabb pulls some crazy play out of his ass to beat us. I just don't recall games like that against Pitt.
I would take NC State.
NC State is the closest natural rival in terms of school size, programs offered/engineering based, stadium size, geography, etc.
Yup
As a State grad school grad, I support this.
State fans can get ...heated... though.
After moving to Raleigh, I found out that State has major little brother syndrome. And understandably so.
As a Hokie who lives and works less than 10 minutes from Carter-Finley, I would have to agree with you!
I think NCSt is a good fit, but it would be us trying to start a new rivalry like we did with BC. That one just hasn't taken.
yeah, but what does BC have in common with us? Architecture of their campus, maybe? NC State is also much closer geographically...how many Hokies make the biannual trip to Chestnut hill for that 'rivalry'? I'd wager that a rivalry with NC State would be much more lively than ours with BC. At least NC State fans (exist) care about football. BC fans probably can't even name 3 starters on any of their sports teams. They know more about the Pats than the Eagles.
always thought BC was more about prior conference affiliation then anything else.
Oh definitely...that is a big reason we're stuck with them IMO. But if we're talking about turning the conference on it's head and re-doing all of the rivalries and permanent cross-overs and stuff then I think it makes way more sense for us to face off against NC State or GT. Both are technical schools. We are more similar to NC State than GT in a lot of ways so I think that is the best fit. The BC-VT rivalry feels very forced because it is very forced.
The league administration was made up of very Pro-Carolina and Pro-old-conference-members at the time VT joined in 2004. None of the Carolina schools wanted to get stuck with BC and the schools with the most weight to throw around (UNC, Duke, FSU, Clemson) used their power to avoid BC. Nobody wanted to travel all the way up to Boston every other year and they knew that BC fans would never travel down to their institutions biannually either. Playing BC was going to be costly and have very little draw in just about every respect. So, since the many members of the conference didn't even want VT to join in the first place (Virginia's Governor at the time pressured UVA to vote pro VT--a very political move--which broke the tie and ultimately resulted in VT joining as a full member) they voted to stick us with BC. We literally got stuck with BC because nobody else wanted them. They stuck the two red-headed step children together and called it a day.
100% agree on GT. As far as longstanding ACC members that we should match up against yearly, LOLUVA and GT are the two best possible fits. But if we have to have four 'rivalries', we should build on pre-existing rivalries. Miami is a perfect fit for a longstanding rival so the only question we have now is who is fourth. I hate Pitt because we've played them a lot in the past and it's a back-and-forth series. NCSt would be another forced 'rivalry'. Now that Pitt and Syracuse joined the conference, one or both of them can take a permanent game against BC. NCSt would be a good school to play against, but as far as committing to a longstanding series, Pitt is the best fit.
I hate Pitt too. But I don't see how they would be any less "forced" than NC State. I think NC State is a great fit. Similar size. Similar culture. It's in an area where there are lots of Hokies. It's not far too far from Blacksburg. NC State loathes UNC the same way we loathe UVA. I think NC State and VT have just enough in common that they could cultivate a healthy rivalry. The only reason we hate Pitt is because they beat us all the time. (Maybe since you live in PA you have other reasons, I don't really know). I really don't see how Pitt is a better fit than NC State. What am I missing?
I'm relying heavily on previously established rivalry - meaning I weigh my opinion heavily in favor of teams we've 1) played against a number of times, and 2) have a relatively even all-time record against. The combination of the two factors makes for a good rival (never play anyone and they can't be a good rival, always pound someone they can't be a good rival).
For Pitt, we're 8-7 all-time and all 15 games have been played since 1993. http://www.hokiesports.com/football/opponents/Pittsburgh
For NCSt, we're...[sh!t I should have looked this up before making the argument]...27-18-4 but have only played 5 games against them since 1993 (4-1).
http://www.hokiesports.com/football/opponents/NC%20State
So I guess, instead of relying on data, I'll have to rely on the fact that I just FEEL like Pitt is a bigger rival than NCSt and that should carry the day.
History.
We played Pitt every year from 1993-2003, and then again since 2012. The overall series is at 8-7, even though most of those wins on either side come in chunks. But most of our losses (in this century at least) to Pitt have been embarrassing, largely due to where we were as a program at the time of the game.
We played NC State fairly regularly through the 1960s. Then we had a four game series in 1989-1992. And we've only played them five times since joining the ACC. The only real drama in VT/NC State was when they beat us in 2004, to put a blemish on what would have been a perfect conference record.
Obviously, rivalries have to start somewhere, and a lot of the ones that VT has started when they joined either the Big East or the ACC. But it's one thing to be thrown in with a group of teams that you play every year and develop a rivalry based on the outcome of the games as we were when the Big East was started or the ACC created divisions. But in this case, it would be trying to create a rivalry within a conference where both teams are already members, just to fill a rivalry quota.
From an ACC-era perspective, I think 2004 began to define our place in this conference, and the NC State missed field goal and subsequent win streak was the definition of Hokie determination and resilience. For years they were one of the few ACC teams that had a conference victory over us, and I was glad we were able to beat them when that number came up again. That's why I would go with NC State as an ACC rival specifically, as well as better proximity and connection with the old ACC (the carolinas).
All very good points. If this was an exercise to just redistrict the conference into new divisions, I would not be opposed to being placed in a division with NC State and letting it play out. Basically, what happened with us and GT being placed in the Coastal.
But just picking one more school to be a designated rival, Pitt is probably more qualified than NC State.
Qualified because we have played them more and loathe playing at their sleepy stadium with their uninspired fanbase? Sounds like Boston College is the most qualified.
I agree with your overall point, but I do have to say the Tech-NC State games have been a lot more fun and interesting than the Tech-Pitt games. The 2004, 2005, and 2010 games were all good games. Even 2015 was a pretty good game. All of the Pitt games since 2012 had been more or less over before the 4th quarter, or, at the very least, by early in the 4th quarter.
Agreed. I loved the late Big East-era Pitt games but our ACC games have been snoozers, other than
and
Define "late Big East era", because we've only beaten them once since Michael Vick left.
98-03 our games with Pitt were fantastic overall. Good, physical games with some great talent on the field.
For some reason, when it comes to 2003, I keep getting the Pitt and WVU games mixed up. WVU was the one that we sent our women's softball team in disguise to play a football game.
Yeah, I was at both those games- that 2012 game in particular was really bad outside of the Jarrett punt return.
I'd say Pitt or Louisville. I think both of those teams are pretty even to where we are at the moment in terms of talent and on field results. While not being "great" teams like FSU or Clemson, they're at least competitive and have winning records year in and year out which is more than can be said for teams like Syracuse, BC, or Wake. The other one that I would say is UNC just because they're on the upswing and we seem to regularly be competing with them for a lot of our recruits.
First priority - ABBC
Who helps recruiting the most? Clemson IFF we can start beating them.
When first reading I had Lville - the new choice is always sexier.
I like NC State from the similar school POV, but with so many NC schools and ECU we play there enough.
Pitt is not sexy, but I'd be okay with it.
I'd take Clemson first, because I hate them more than other ACC school not on the list, and beating them would likely help recruiting the most. Flip a coin on Pitt/Lville for second choice.
Louisville would be a great option from a geographical standpoint. Also, they aren't that dissimilar to us in terms of how they go to where they currently are. Two fantastic fanbases!
This is hugely better then our current setup. The division structure is far past it's usefulness.
The problem with scrapping divisions is issues with tiebreakers. With the current setup, since I'm not really a fan of the 9-game conference schedule because it's unbalanced, I'd rather see the permanent rival scrapped and have both cross-divisional games rotate so you would have say:
Year 1:
@FSU
WF
Year 2
@BC
Clemson
Year 3
@NCSU
Syracuse
Year 4
FSU
@Louisville
Year 5
@WF
BC
Year 6
@Clemson
NCSU
Year 8
@Syracuse
Louisville
You'd at least play every team every 4 years, and we'd be rid of the annual BC game, too (thank God). Though the downside is you'd lose traditional annual rivalry games (traditional for these teams, anyway) between FSU and Miami, Clemson and Georgia Tech, UNC and NC State, and Duke and Wake.
Barring that, I'd want to see an expansion to 16 teams made up of 4-team pods. Assign each team three permanent rivals from the other three pods. Each season, you play the three teams in your pod + all four teams from one of the other pods every year (rotating), then either:
* the two permanent rivals you didn't play from the other pods (9-game schedule) OR
* one of the permanent rival from the other pods (8-game schedule).
You could then do the Championship one of two ways:
* Top two teams from different pods with the best conference record plays in the Championship game OR
* move to an 11-game 'regular season' (8-game conference schedule). The week before Championship Saturday you host a semi-final between the top team in each pod (home game to the better records) with the winners advancing to the ACCCG. The other 12 teams then get paired against either:
a. one of their permanent rivals they didn't play that season
b. any remaining teams they didn't play that season who also are lacking one or both of their permanent rivals
For example, you could have a pod of:
Miami
VT
UVA
UNC
Our permanent rivals could then be (for example): Georgia Tech, Pittsburgh, and Louisville.
Obviously, if we lose the permanent crossover (which I agree with), the divisions would need to be realigned a bit, since they were designed specifically to account for the permanent crossovers (with only 12 teams).
I think they would be fine just the way they are.
Clemson and Georgia Tech, UNC and NC State, and Florida State and Miami would likely disagree.
I think they would like to play each other more but I doubt they would all agree to redoing divisions. You just lose old rivals to get matched with new ones.
You do realize that I was referring to long standing rivalries that are maintained via the permanent crossover? If all cross-divisional games were set to rotating, the divisions would have to be tweaked to allow for those matchups to occur on a regular basis.
There isn't a practical way to "tweak" it without losing rivalries.
What are two groups that don't exist, Alex?
I'd say Louisville or Clemson. We need to develop a rivalry with one of these to help us for the long run.
Someone else mentioned UNC and our recruiting footprint overlap, that makes sense as well.
I much prefer the 3 protected rivalry model, as long as we have 14 teams and an 8-game conference schedule. It sets up nicely to get a home-and-home every 4 years with everyone in the conference. If we HAD to add a fourth I wouldn't mind keeping the BC rivalry alive (....ducks and covers....). We have a fair amount of history with them and, despite recent struggles, they're a decent program. I would also like Wake Forest, just based on proximity and theoretical ease of beating them any given year. (VT00WF didn't really happen, dammit!) Of course none of that matters, because in this hypothetical, we'd get Louisville, whether we like it or not. Let's face it, SOMEBODY has to play them, and as the closest team geographically, we'd be the logical choice.
In fact, even if there were only 3 protected rivalries, it seems more likely that we'd get UL than GT, anyway. The Jackets would certainly get paired with Clemson and probably with FSU. Their 3rd would likely be someone with whom they have more history (old-guard ACC team like UVa or NC State, perhaps?) or, for the sake of balance, a team with less history of success (Syracuse, Pitt).
Anybody but BC.
Strongly agree with your comment RE: 3 annual rivals rather than 4. It makes far more sense mathematically in a 14-team, 8-game conference schedule.
If we expanded to 16 teams and maintained an 8-game schedule, I'd support just one annual rival and rotating the other 7 games to keep a full home & home schedule every 4 years.
If you can't tell, I loathe the fact that the current ACC schedule takes 12 years to complete a full home & home rotation with every team.
Obviously Hokies pride themselves on being able to get up and show out for all games, but as a fan I would much rather play bigger teams than BC and Wake. We're bigger than that and there are more exciting match ups out there
We can, and should, schedule high-caliber non-conference opponents to build excitement and maintain a strength-of-schedule that's appealing to the Playoff Committee should we perform well enough to merit consideration.
For conference scheduling, they should seek a balanced schedule. If you have 3 permanent rivals, they should include one top-tier foe, one middle tier, and one lower tier for everyone. (All this in addition to maintaining historical rivalries and considering geography, travel, the other schools' desired rivalries, etc.) I suggest BC and Wake based on (recent) history and proximity respectively, not because they're certain to be exciting games every year. There's more to scheduling than just "I wanna play the big names".
Seems like whatever scheme ESPN decides to push is what comes to fruition. They want only four main conferences so that their playoff scheme can be a simple contest between conference champions. Not sure how to have everyone thrive within that scheme, especially adding cost of attendance when so few schools break even now. Maybe some schools will be forced to drop sports and just concentrate on education ! ...... naaah.
Anyone except Syracuse or BC
I'd go with loserville. They're easy to hate [1] and give you an excuse to hit the bourbon trail every other year. Backup choice: F$U. Admit it, doing the tomahawk chop in lane in '07 was awesome and we want to do it again! Backup backup choice: clemson. I'd actually be good with either of them, both are marquee opponents and both offer awesome road trip possibilities.
Anyone who says 'cuse should be voted off the island. To hell with that miserable dome.
[1] At least for those of us old enough to remember the metro conference fucking they gave us. Not that I'm bitter.
Ummmm... there is only one answer here
ECU
Thank you in advance for all of the nightmares that are to come based on this picture.
And soon, ODU!
Since VT was originally part of the Southern Conference before we went independent, I would like to keep in the south. Miami, GT, Clemson and LOLUVA. If we had 5 protected rivalries you could throw in one of the NC schools. NC St would be fine. Then we could go to a 10 game schedule and get rid of the ECU and the Liberty's of the world.
Clemson. Two programs with very passionate football fanbases, both land-grant institutions, military academy history, similar focus academic programs (engineering, sciences, etc), both have very sprawling campuses with a lot of land. I think it's an all-around good fit and intriguing game.
The deciding factor is likely who wants to be our rival. We would likely be on the list for all the former Big East teams, because who else are they gonna pick? Louisville might pick us. Clemson and FSU probably would not, using their SEC rival as an excuse to get a doormat like LOLUVA. The Carolina teams will all want to play each other. I'd take Pitt over BC or Cuse.
This. Not only who do we want but who would want us as well. Pitt is the best fit.
I don't usually agree with the Cousins, but when I do, it's on this:
UNC. They make Miami look pristine these days and we need a strong reminder to folks in North Carolina who we are. Beating them makes you feel good. Losing just makes you seethe and you can't wait to play them again next year.
"How you expect to run with the wolves come night when you spend all day sparring with the puppies?"
Clemson or FSU.
That's great and all but remember that the assumption that FSU and Miami were the powerhouses in the ACC is what led to some of the problems we have now. The wolves of tomorrow could be anybody.
The wolves of tomorrow will be Fuente and the Hokies.
I just wanted to make a quick rundown of our rivalry/connection with the other ACC schools.
Boston College -- Sadly, this is the team that we have played the most since I started Tech in 2002. Even though we got a one year break from them, we doubled up with the 2 ACC Championship games. I feel like it's a bit of an artificially created rivalry, because we really had no reason to be their permanent crossover, other than both of us came from the old Big East. Outside of 2007-2008, there hasn't been much at stake in BC/VT games, other than personal pride for either team.
Clemson and Florida State -- These are the crown jewels in our eyes, because they are the best from the Atlantic side, and we've rarely played them since joining the ACC. However, there's not a lot of history between us and them, outside of the 1999 natty, and our eventual victories in 2007 and 2010 for FSU, and then Clemson being our kryptonite in 2011.
Duke, Syracuse, and Wake Forest -- They've all been the perpetual doormats, the only excitement has come from Cutcliffe's tenure at Duke. I don't really have problems playing those teams (other than the 00 OT), but I won't be sad if we don't.
Georgia Tech and Miami -- This is a textbook case of rivalries that by all rights shouldn't exist but do. Obviously, we stood in GT's way (or vice versa) for the ACC title all throughout the last decade, and we've been getting in the way of Miami for twice as long.
Louisville, North Carolina, and NC State -- Due to proximity, we probably should play/have played them more often. (Except for a bowl game, we didn't play UNC for almost 60 years while we were in different conferences.)
Pitt -- As much as I hate to admit it, I think there's a rivalry here. I just wish the games weren't so damn frustrating.
UVA -- Pillage and burn.
And to flip it and look at it from their perspective - do they want to play us?
BC - the closest they have to a conference rival, except possibly 'Cuse.
Klempsen, F$U - fun team to play in Championships, but no rivalry, and adding us to the schedule would make it harder to get to a championship.
Syracuse - we were their biggest rival the last time they were relevant in football (McNabb)
Duke, Wake, NC State, UNC - we are not a rival and we are not in North Carolina, they would rather keep playing each other.
GT, Miami, Pitt - Likely feel about us like we feel about them, above.
Louisville - most fans are not old enough to remember the Metro, and while in the same conference were not really rivals then. But they don't really have any rivals in the conference yet, so why not us?
LOL - Believes they have 100 year win streak in being better dressed at football games than us, and wants to keep it going.
We start winning again, and everyone is going to want a piece of us and try to knock us off. 2004-2012, we were universally HATED throughout the ACC, because we had a habit of kicking the shit out of the conference any opportunity we got. Even last year, teams still had our games circled.
We might not be "rivals" with everyone in the conference, and certainly FSU, Clemson, and UNC are the top dogs right now, but we're still a big game for everyone because the relative prestige our name carries. Anyone in the conference would love to be paired up with us on an annual basis, just as we would love to be paired up with anyone with a name ourselves.
I do not think FSU wants to play us, klempson, miami, and unc all every year, while other teams play all easy teams, and Klempson wouldn't either. They have both used their SEC rivalry game to argue against a tougher league schedule in the past. I would rather save a couple of the top teams to see in the finals than play them every year and not get there myself. I also don't think NC State would pick us over UNC or Duke, both being local rivals, and likely not Wake, though we might make choice #4. UNC would want to play State, Duke, Wake and UVA. But all the former Big East teams will likely have us in their top 4 both from a history and prestige standpoint. Duke and Wake are more worried about wins than beating quality opponents - they schedule for a bowl game, not a BCS appearance. Not everyone wold want to create a rivalry with us, when they already have one with someone else, whether we are winning or not.
NC State and Clemson are our allies....
Give me UNC.
huh? What?
we already play them. Every. Year.
Similar schools in different states, I just don't harbor any hate for them.
Who cares if we already play them on a yearly basis? Beating the heels is very satisfying.
sad to say, but these days beating anyone is very satisfying
WVU and the black diamond trophy would be good.
But we've already got the black diamond trophy.
That's like being proud that you've got chlamydia.
I mean, at least you had sex, right?
Doesn't matter had sex.
What's sex?
Sex?....sex...hmm.....oh, that's that whole tab A into slot B thing that's so big on the internet these days, right?....yeah, I think I remember that.
I think i'd rather play ECU for another 20 years than renew the rivalry with the cousins
This thread has me loading one of my shotguns and will work the trigger with my toes. 00, 1s or slug?
Never going to happen. This is WVU trying to get into the ACC:
WVU actually did apply for admission into the ACC, but it was promptly rejected based on the fact the application was written in Crayon.
I thought they misspelled ACC and applied to the AAC instead? Of course they did not accept them either, only partially because of the crayon.
VT FB.....STOP IT!
I wouldn't pick Pitt. They have a quiet stadium and uninspiring fanbase.
It seems like I take the BC rivalry a bit more seriously than most Hokie fans do. I remember from 2006-2008, I don't think there was a team I hated more. It felt like BC was the team in our way whenever we were trying to accomplish something. VT-BC I in 2007 is my toughest moment as a fan, regardless of sport or team. I'm not going to forget the contempt a 14 year-old me had for Matt Ryan jumping into Jeff Jagodzinski's arms in triumph, or the thrill of the game-sealing TD interception return by Xavier Adibi to get revenge in the ACCCG.
Other than Miami and UVA, BC is the one team that we've consistently played every year throughout my lifetime. I personally wouldn't want to throw that aside.
Did you say...Matt Ryan?...
Well, except for 2004.
'Cuse had a couple of years with McNabb where they gave us fits, and we had some great games. That does not make me want a rivalry with them. Very similar to how I feel about BC. We really need to have a rival who has a fanbase that cares about College Football.
Yes and yes. That disqualifies Pitt.
Clemson. We need a solid, consistent measuring stick and to strengthen the schedule. Two big, crazy fan bases, famous entrances, and the fans don't seem to like each other. Close enough to commute to both games. Plus constant memories of Macho Harris in 2007 in Tiger stadium.....
They touch a friggin rock
we all know it's more because the fans get excited about their touching a rock that makes it a great entrance. MY high school could play enter sandman before football games, but it wouldn't make it a great entrance. That said, I have no idea why touching a rock is exciting, but I've never had to live in SC either...
I totally agree with Peter Griffin on this one and I didn't say it was a great or exciting entrance. I said it was a famous one, and it is. Plus, the Hokie players running out of the tunnel also jump up and touch a rock....
I think this is a better way to decide your 4 annual rivals
https://colleges.niche.com/rankings/hottest-girls/
I prefer https://colleges.niche.com/rankings/best-college-food/ personally.
Put the women and children to bed and go looking for dinner!