I hate to bring conspiracies or sound like a sore sport, but it is a pretty big elephant in the room.
Clemson is the ACC's only path to the playoffs. With it rests the playoff money, exposure and national recognition. If VT pulls off the upset, the ACC will lose their crown jewel in Clemson.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if the refs heavily favor Clemson. This isn't specific to Clemson either- I would be saying the same thing if FSU, VT, UNC or any other ACC Playoff contender was in their place. I can see Florida getting the short end of the ref stick against Alabama as well because of the same reason.
I hope for a clean, balanced game, but I fear that the refs will unfairly get involved and alter a game changing result.
EDIT: Here's the article that got me thinking and made me write this post. Interesting stuff.
Comments
Put it this way, does a camel shit'n spit in the desert?
Does Dolly Parton sleep on her back?
Does a one legged duck swim in circles?
Does a bear shit in the Pope's funny hat?
Does a fat baby have gas?
this is obvious: if we win, the refs were good. if we lose, the refs were bad.
/s
I came here to say this.
I'm waiting for someone with more time and a better sense of humor than me to create the Pat Narduzzi account here.
Fuck Pat Narduzzi
This always deserves a leg
I mean, what's so difficult about a Narduzzi user? Everything you type is going to be censored anyway.... just make sure you type in all caps and *&^%*(^ out half of everything you say, and you got it
This system is clearly rigged, and the refs are against us from the start... unless we win, in which case I accept the results of the game.
I'll accept the game either way, and I know that VT has had a lot of help from the refs in the past. Interestingly the reason I brought this up now is because of this thread I found on reddit.
Not jabbing ya, but when??
Danny Coale
/s right??
If I remember correctly Hosley also got called on very bull shit PI in that game.
I'll be honest, I can't name any off the top of my head, but that's how it is. You lose because of the refs and you'll never forget it, you win with some help and you won't remember. But I can guarantee that VT had help in some way or another when we were at the top of the Big East/ACC food chain. I'll try to pick examples as I think of them.
Attaochu late hit on Taylor during a last minute drive was a questionable call that went in our favor. It was big because I believe the hit occurred on a 3rd down play which, if the penalty wasn't called, would have resulted in a 4th down and medium. After that first down we scored the go-ahead TD and ended up winning a very close game.
Attaochu cocked back and punched him (him being Logan Thomas, not Taylor)
hmmm...something in my memory is broken..I can't find it but I'm pretty sure there was a questionable call against GT which resulted in a first down for VT on the game winning drive
I think that was last year.
2 and 5 at VT39 Thomas, J. rush for no gain to the VT39 (Clark, C), PENALTY GT unsportsmanlike conduct (Joe, E.) 15 yards to the GT46.
That was about at the 1 minute mark. GT then called 2 timeouts, got sacked, called another timeout, and had 4th and 27 from their 39.
2008 game.
Thanks! Leg!
yep, if memory serves, that personal foul on Tyrod was super questionable. He was running right up the side line, saw the defender coming for the hit and stepped out just in time for the hit to come after the whistle. More momentum than anything else, but it turned a 4th and 5 into a 1st and 10.
I seem to remember him doing this twice and that second penalty was very similar, but without pulling up a replay of the game I can't be sure and it's described differently in the play by play.
I remember some questionable calls against us both times we played Clemson in '11. I can't remember though what they were, I just remember texting my BIL (Clemson fan) about it.
There was a really bad OPI call against Boykin in that game. There was also the roughing the kicker penalty after we tipped the ball (which you could tell was tipped on TV), then they reviewed it and somehow still said it wasn't tipped.
The following season was when Watkins fumbled, there was a clear angle on the review that showed nothing touching the ground, and they upheld the down by contact call somehow.
We knew in this game we would have some questionable calls against us, but at the end of the day we had the ball in their territory twice with a chance to tie but couldn't capitalize. I'm not gonna be upset about it, those kids played their asses off. How many teams down 21 with 15 minutes left against the #3 team in the country fight back like that?
Yeah I remember that one time when defensive pass interference was called against USC in '04.../s
Ooooooooh daaaaaaaaaaaaamn you had to bring up that one. Ugh! "That Was a Bullshit PI" was "Danny Caught That Ball" before we even recruited Coale.
One of the worst calls against us ever...
I remember all the calls about our o-line not having enough men on the LOS in that game too >:(
Or was that a different season opener?
Ugh, that was infuriating.
Video, in case you want to refresh the anger.
The part about the refs being paid a percentage of the conference's earnings is interesting. Seems like that can't be the case because common sense says it's a bad idea but I wouldn't be surprised
In addition, even if we win and I accept the results of the election, I will tweet out, "Crooked Clemson cheated and if it wasn't for their cheating, VT would have had a shutout."
During the game, I will also tweet out during any official review that could detrimentally affect VT, "This review is clearly set-up by crooked Clemson, and their pay-for-play scenario as detailed in their deleted emails."
Holy pushing-the-envelope Batman!
Pushed, but I don't think over-the-edge.
If others disagree, I'll edit and delete. I think they're, at least in my opinion, neutral reflection of actual events. But, I'll delete if someone takes offense.
well, FTR I got a chuckle from it and I was not offended by it (even gave you a leg)...
I was scanning the comments hoping no one had made the same jokes first. Just because someone who acts a fool in the national spotlight happens to be a politician, doesn't make jokes about said person political.
I think the refs will get some calls right and get some calls wrong but until I see something egregious I'm hesitant to accuse them of any bias
I don't buy into refs being biased...
I just think the refs are generally not very good...given that they're part time and the game moves really really fast it's actually tough to fault them too much when you really think about it. I think the NCAA could afford to have, and should pursue, full time officiating crews. There should be improvements to the system to create more accountability. Poorly officiated games should result in repercussions for the officiating crews.
And some of the rules need to be re-visited (looking at you, Targeting) because it's pretty clear refs struggle to call some penalties consistently. Targeting is an important penalty but it's excruciatingly frustrating to see it called so inconsistently week in and week out.
I thought collegiate officiating crews were full time. I know the NFL they definitely are not (I used to work with an NFL ref when I was an engineer at Verizon, always fun finding out where he was being sent out to each week)
no, I'm pretty sure there are no full time officials at any level for football
They are not full-time but they do get some respectable money for the games and get paid to travel.
My buddy has a good buddy who is actually an ACC ref. Actually refer the game against LOLUVA so he's apparently pretty good.
I agree Full Tim refs would allow them to concentrate more , but I'm not sure it is the only reason. For example, many of the soccer refs are part-time too, and there are controversy calls, but I think they get a lot more respect from both the fans and players. It could be that in Football and Basketball penalties have too much of an impact in final game results.
I agree with the accountability but disagree with the full time officials. It's not like they don't know the rules and need to study. It's mostly just human error or different judgment calls.
I think Alabama could go out on unicycles and still not need the refs in that game.
yeah, the refs aren't to impact a 20+ point differential
Not to mention they're absolutely still in the CFP even if they somehow manage to lose.
Sure hope not. It's tough to see a game get skewed by stuff like that.
I guess what you really don't want to see are the borderline PI or holding calls.
Clemson holds the only ACC playoff spot right now
That's all i'm gonna say...
Screw them. I'd rather VT win the ACC and thus eliminate the conference from playoff contention than see Clemson win the ACC just to get beat in round 1 of the playoffs...
nobody is beating Alabama this year anyway...I'd rather finish the season 11-3 and then roll through the ACC on the way to the playoff next year
So would everyone except the ACC and Clemson
I don't really get the conference pride...the ACC didn't even want VT anyway...we're their bastard child that they didn't want but reluctantly took. We are Harry Potter and the ACC is the Dursley family. UVa is Dudley.
I don't care what the rest of the conference wants. I want VT to win every game it plays and I couldn't give 2 shi*s about the rest of the league. Except UVA. I want them to lose every game it plays. That's all I care about.
Unfortunately your dreams didn't come true. lolUVA won 2 games this year.
yeah and we lost 3...it's been a rough year for me :(
Because it makes us look like shit if we win the ACC but everyone is terrible. I hate that UNC, Miami, and GT are all unranked because it would make our run this year even better with 4 ranked wins.
Pitt is ranked, and Miami and GT both have votes. I'd expect that if they each win their bowl games they'll end the season ranked, which will help with the Coastal's preseason rankings next year.
college football is a billion dollar industry, plus a TON of money is bet every year on the outcomes of games. if the acc mandated that refs had to fix a game(which is being implied throughout this thread), and it got out, which it likely would, that would blow everything up
There's a fine line between fixing and straight bias/conference representation
Dis be us on Sunday
via GIPHY
/dons MAKE VIRGINIA TECH GREAT AGAIN hat
/yes, yes they will be biased
You mean the MAKE VIRGINIA TECH STICK IT IN AGAIN hat right? Who was in charge of making those?
No, they won't be bias. That's just silly. But these are ACC refs and given their performance this season so far, I expect incompetency to be on full display.
I agree with everything except the non-bias part. Just watch the Louisville game.
Refs are refs, and sometimes refs are bad. Sometimes they are good though, and some of those good times are when we are playing.
TLDR; refs are rarely anti-VT, or any team for that matter. Any other view I personally view as pure theory.
I like the meta approach. A theory on theories.
Welcome to the RealDiehl School for Philosophy
UNC says hello from the 2015 ACC Championship game.
One week they got the benefit of a biased call (getting control on the ground out of bounds does NOT constitute a TD, Mr. Replay Official.)
Next week they got screwed on an onside kick, because, well, Clemson and playoff.
I fully expect to see questionable calls against us in this game. Probably something like Conte being called for holding against Syracuse with the flag only coming out after Evans ran by the Umpire on the way to the endzone....
I just expect the refs to be all around bad.
As long as there is no Ron Cherry I will be happy
Ron Cherry doesn't even remember who Ron Cherry is right now so I think that's a safe bet.
Dadi agrees!
Accusing refs of bias is never a good look. Accusing refs of bias before a game is even played, even a worse look.
These guys are making calls on plays that are happening so fast. They'll get most right and sometimes they'll screw up. Hopefully they're a good crew and don't mess up a call that impacts the game.
They won't be biased. If they are, and anyone could actually prove it, it'd be a big deal.
Don't be this type of fan base.
It's kind of embarrassing that we have a thread about this. If Clemson fans saw it they would get a kick out of it.
Its extremely embarrassing. Any other fan base that did this would get mocked by us.
It's kinda like us and UNC fans with the hurricane, except they at least waited until the hurricane happened to use it as an excuse
My intention with this thread was to have discussion with the article I linked, which has shown that refs are inclined towards teams which mean more to the conference. I didn't mean to make it as if I'm making excuses in case we lose, but I can see why it sounds like that.
Understood, but it would have been helpful to include the link with the initial post and make the thread title a little more descriptive in this regard
False. They would get extremely defensive and reference the bad holding call against their DB against Pitt and claim that they don't get any help from refs.
That's what Clemson fans do.
Yeah, it's stupid. Referee'ing is really hard work. I'm shocked they get as many calls right as they do. Yes, they will miss some. Yes, they will miss some against your team. No, that doesn't mean they are biased.
Skipper you nailed this!!!!
Abort thread GIF here!!!
Skipper, I don't disagree with your general perception; that's true of most officials I know. I think it's 100% quality control and "good-ol-boy" system that results in poor officiating and low turnover across the board. The ACCCG crew of Jeff Flanagan is an example - long history of "issues" yet here they are, the "best of"?
It's not about bias per se, although there is bias based on a team's personality. For example, VT is regarded as an "aggressive" defense. Therefore, there is a tendency for that "personality" to be reflected in flags thrown. We get tapped for PI and a few other calls at a higher rate than our opponent/s. There are, in fact, a number of studies that show subtle bias in officiating. Is it enough to call it systemic? I do NOT think any official makes intentional choices made to "screw a team". I don't think the OP was trying to take us down that "Hatin' on" thread that our fan base is not. And like a good STEM school, let's go dig the numbers...
I'm dead in the middle of the statistical analysis of ACC flags thrown in the 2015/2016 football seasons, and will publish the whole thing here on TKP in the next few weeks. It's damning. Inconsistency and such are definitely there, as is a potential for officiating to have impacted game outcomes. Any numbers geeks that want to contribute, look me up. It's a lot to sift through.
At the end of the day, there absolutely needs to be independent education, grading and remediation of crews. And those that don't perform need to be wished well on future endeavors.
Win or lose, Bama is going to the playoffs
It could happen. The 2007 Pitt-WVU game is exhibit A. Pitt still won but they have to overcome a lot more than beating WVU in Morgantown that night.
This was the specific example that I was going to point out. It was obvious that game that the refs were trying to get WVU into the championship game. The funny thing is, even with the clear bias, Dave Wannstedt kept his composure better than Patt Narduzzi getting a massage.
I am not saying the ACC refs will do the same to try and make sure the ACC is represented in playoffs, but I have seen it before. The team can't leave the game close enough for the officials to affect the outcome. Just go out and play hard, smart, and tough and bury Clemson by two scores.
Here's my take on ref bias, from a psychological standpoint...
I think the home team eventually gets more favorable calls. If I could get 60,000+ fans to cheer for me just by making some hand gestures, I wouldn't be able to help myself, at least a little bit.
Also, I think coaches that act like douchers the whole game are not going to get the benefit of the doubt on a questionable call, that's just human nature.
Also, there are refs that aren't good at their job, and there is shit happening on the field that's just really hard to make a call on.
I just don't think there are refs that go into a game thinking, "Oh yeah, I'm sticking it to the Hokies today", nor do I think a ref would ever be instructed to do so. Imagine the ramifications of something like that. The league would be toast. All it would take is a former ref who felt that he got jobbed by the league in some way to come out with a tell all. If intentional ref bias was being orchestrated, something like this would have happened by now.
To me, the human factor of officiating a football game isn't really something to complain about. It's part of the game. I've got no problem with using science and technology to look at in vs. out, catch vs. no catch, but the judgement calls are part of what makes the game, the game.
Wasn't there a recent study that coaches that act like douchers do get the calls?
Was that study conducted Thursday, October 27, 2016 in Pittsburgh?
LOL at the dude behind Coach and also I wish I could read lips damnit!!
Does he say "Bullshit! Are you shitting me?"
That's what I want it to be
I'm pretty sure there's an f-bomb in there.
At one point, watching on TV, I clearly made out a "What the Fuck was that Bullshit!"
I still think that Fuente was doing this to light a little fire into the team and I thought it was great. It seemed to work as Isaiah Ford was clapping his way 15 yards downfield.
I think it was ESPN (really it was FiveThirtyEight before they spun off) that showed that the home field advantage comes most in the form of the crowds ability to sway the officials. So I waited until it was quiet after the penalty to add onto the effect and give the officials a little notice that there were Hokies in the stands too (I was in the 5th row), and we weren't happy about the calls.
This has been debated on another thread, but it actually didn't light a fire under the team at that point in the game and CJF said in his press conference that it was a bad penalty to take at that time (and set a poor example for the players.)
With regards to money, I don't think its as bad for the ACC as its being made out to be. I don't think its a stretch to think Clemson still ends up in a NY6 bowl when they lose on Saturday. That still brings the conference 4 mil (vs 6 mil).
Not a stretch, but also not a guarantee for Clemson.
There's only one wild card NY6 spot, and that's in the Cotton Bowl. Right now, you teams like Colorado, USC, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, or the loser of the Big Ten championship game in contention for that spot, depending on how this weekend goes, and how the rankings shake out.
But, at least Clemson knows they have three destinations. If they win, they're in the semi finals. If they lose, they'll be in the Cotton or Citrus Bowls.
well I can tell you UF is going to need a lot more than the refs this week. maybe a QB. how a team that avg less than a TD a game on offense goes to the conference championship in the BEST conference in college football (sarcasta) is beyond me.
on a side note and not hokie related but I find it comical. every jag fan I know has blamed atleast 4 of their losses on the refs this year. lol.
I don't think the refs will be biased. I just think they will be terrible, as per usual.
Flagship program; I like the sound of that.
Let's let the B1G refs do this game. I hear there's a couple schools from that conference that want Clemson to lose
Are refs less likely to throw flags on winning teams, or do good teams simply commit fewer penalties? I could be convinced that refs have some natural human bias but I suspect it's more the later.
Who knows, but it wouldn't be the only reason if we lose the game. The Catch was one thing, but I don't want to become that team. There are hundreds of other things in a game that equally determine if you win or lose beyond some bad calls.
Yes, for example: in the Sugar Bowl, I would argue the bigger factor than the OT catch overturn was the fact we only had 10 players on the field on defense for one of Michigan's TDs during regulation. For as many times as I've seen people blame the refs for an OT instant replay call, I rarely see anyone bring up that play and place some blame on ourselves.
Interesting that this thread is up and today my buddy sent me this article NCAA ref bias
The actual study was done by Bloomberg and there are links to that in the article above. Interesting piece to say the least but they say statistically there is bias towards teams with better chances to help the conference or that have winning percentages.
That's exactly why I posted this thread. I didn't mean to make it sound like it's a given that the refs will be biased and that they're out to get us, but there have been studies that have shown inclination towards the team that means the most to the conference.
I have an honest question. Do big name NBA players avoid fouling out because they simply stop fouling late in games or do refs start to swallow their whistle because no one wants to watch a Cavs game without LeBron in it?
Yes. Tim Donahue (sp?), the ref that was busted for being "strong-armed" into affecting games by organized crime, said on multiple occasions that the NBA wouldn't outright say that certain players should get better calls, but would gear the training and game reviews in such a way that the refs would be more highly regarded by the league if they cooperated. Kobe, Lebron, MJ, you name the stars, all get a little help from the zebras.
I'm pretty embarrassed we are having this conversation. Refs make mistakes sometimes just like players and coaches do. Let's take care of what we can control.
I don't think the intent is that refs are going to not call obvious thing and completely change the outcome of the game but as people have noted if a call could go either way the team that is means more to the conference right now will get the benefit of the doubt.
screw the ACC, screw Clemson, screw everybody else..... GO HOKIES!
It ain't gonna matter when we whoop that ass.
Now here, everyone have some Kool-aid. It's fucking delicious.
O&M! Mm-mm. My fave!
Do I hope for a fairly called game? Yes.
Do I think we are going to get one? Maybe.
Do I think there are going to fans upset at officiating? Definitely
Yes
How's Dabo's dick taste, refs?
They seemed to get better in the second half, but the first half was one sided.
I warned y'all, it showed early but got better as the game went on.
Which is weird because in the past, it always felt like those calls happened moreso in the 2nd half (at least to me). Guess it's better to get them out of the way earlier.
Those calls helped Clemson get the early lead.
Helped them pad a huge lead early. I honestly believe if things were called on the up and up we win, but there was no way we could expect that going into this game. The ACC had an incentive to give Clemson the win. Every Clemson incompletion for about a quarter and a half was a DPI. Some were good calls, most were bullshit. They all kept drives alive that has stalled and directly lead to at least 2 Clemson TDs.
I hate blaming the refs, but the conference fucked us last night.
Those early drive extending penalties were tough. We had 'em in
3rd and longs and were kind of on equal ground with them at that point, then
all the momentum would get taken.
Can someone explain the rule on an uncatchable pass? Seemed like on
those calls that was close to being the case.
I know a group of officials who clearly can't. Some of those were just head scratchingly bad.
I don't always agree with you Alum07, but this is spot on. My wife and I were talking about this pregame and then when got there and saw some of those calls, we just put our hands up and said "here we go.."
Now we definitely missed some opportunities (aka not getting any points out of that interception on the 38) and they called a better game in the second half. But two of the three drives that ended in Clemson TD's stalled but got bailed out on bs DPI calls. Sucks to expect that crap but glad we didnt fold and fought like hell.
Ok, back on the soapbox.
The issue was the lack of consistency, period. Can you imagine the Pitt game if DPI had been called the same way? This was the first time this officiating crew had called a VT game this year.
The ref? Jeff Flanagan. He's gotten many high profile games, as has Ron Cherry.
He was the ref in a number of high-profile "whoopsies" in 2009-2010 involving FSU/Miami, FSU/Clemson.
Simply google the name, and all you'll see are calls-gone-wrong. Yet his crew graded the highest to work the ACCCG? GIVE ME A BREAK, Swofford.
This is garbage, and no matter the school the kids deserve a fairly officiated contest across the board.
I'm THRILLED our kids were able to get to a point they gave themselves a chance DESPITE the circumstances.
You've seen me say it before. The time has come for independent grading, assignment and education of sports officials instead of this broken system led by conference yahoos. When a guy with as many "incidents" as Flanagan gets the premier game... UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't know if you have any insider info, but is there any possibility that Ron Cherry might have been selected had he not been knocked out by USC last week?
(BTW, anyone heard how he's doing?)
Oh Swofford knew EXACTLY what he was doing with this crew in that game last night. They needed Clemson to win so they assigned the one crew who has the least amount of shame to get it done. Had nothing to do with who graded the highest, it was all about achieving the same end result.
Since the untimely death of Doug Rhoads and the appointment of Hannigan, the officiating has gone backwards. They are now at a point where they don't even care about hiding the agenda, IMHO.
Bear in mind I have no doubt these are "good" people, but the ACC system of grading/education/remediation and quality control have reached new lows. There are never "smoking gun" calls, it's all about the implied message from "the Boss". There's no money. It's just an implied part of being assigned to the "big stage". You really think those random debris cautions in NASCAR are accidental, don't you? Sleeve bolts, man - they'll get after ya. As in the kind that are up your sleeve, and get held up in that perfect spot for the camera to see.
So the ACC, which I've been told is completely incompetent at all things and is staffed by people incapable of tying their own shoes, somehow was able to commit massive fraud and pull off a conspiracy by rigging a game without anyone finding out? You're confusing incompetence with malice.
I'm not sure where you're getting the "massive fraud" implication from. I'm saying the opposite - it's no big conspiracy and no smoking gun. It's incompetence, apathy, and suggestions run amok. There is statement that creates an implicit bias. In NASCAR, it's a comment from the right person about the race turning into boring TV. In the ACC, it could be as simple as "everyone benefits from Clemson in the playoffs" statement made on a conference call. How that gets interpreted, and how it can affect an individuals' judgment once it is said, is where things get wonky.
If you listen to NASCAR Race Control / Emergency Service channel, you'll hear "Turn 1 fire, how does my race track luck". When they ask each crew chief a 3rd or 4th time in less than 15 minutes, debris will suddenly turn up. Every time.
I think you're misreading Rocco's comment, which is basically saying the exact same thing (disagreeing with Alum07).
If the ACC were doing that, it would be a fraud and people would be fired. A couple years ago the Pac-12 head of officials Ed Rush told his guys to give Sean Miller a technical foul. Rush was forced out of his job because conferences don't want the hint that games aren't on the level. The simplest explanation is that ACC refs are bad at their jobs and miss lots of calls. I'm sure Clemson Truthers have their own list of missed calls in that game. Now, do I think leagues know which refs call certain penalties and are aware of that when assigning crews? Absolutely. I think it's been proven that the NBA would assign refs friendlier to home teams in playoff series when the home team needed a win. That's the closest you'll get to a league putting its finger on the scale because leagues want to avoid that perception. More importantly, I've been told repeatedly here that the ACC is full of idiots. Be it their TV contract, expansion, divisional alignment- every decision they make is stupid. Do we really think people that dumb are somehow smart enough to put their finger on the scale of a huge game and have no one blab? If someone important on the ACC really said that and it got out VT would be livid and people would lose their jobs because the conference wouldn't appear neutral.
I knew a guy who worked for MRN years ago. To paraphrase what he said about phantom cautions- it was never done to benefit a certain driver, but done to make for a better race. If NASCAR were really throwing cautions to help Dale Jr. it would murder them.
Son of a gun I posted this in the wrong thread entirely.
Deleted it. See the bowl selection thread.
I'm not sure if it's an "intentionally rigged" thing, but NCAA football refs get weird in the post season. In the infamous Michigan game, the horrible call on Danny's catch (and it was a catch) was preceded by 2-3 other calls in the game, where the replay refs basically said "if the ball moves at all, it's a non-catch". Know that we lost a pick on one play and Mich lost a reception on another.
In yesterday's game, it was highly suspicious PI calls. Clemson had PI called on them on VT's 1st TD drive, too (though through my O&M glasses, was a legit call). This game was "if you touch the WR, it's PI". In other games, like Pitt, WR's are having their jersey's pull off while running down field, with nothing called at all.
Lack of consistency is the biggest issue that I have with officiating and it's not limited to college football.
It's not that refs get weird, it's that bad refs end up calling bowl games. Glasses Mc----face was notorious for being awful at his job, and the ref in the replay booth that year was a ref who'd been previously suspended for blowing a review. ACC refs are essentially 7 dachshunds running around on the field. There's lots of games and not that many ref crews.
There are more games every saturday, than all of the games combined in post season (including conf champ games). As a minimum, post season should be the upper half of all refs. Sadly, your 7 dachshunds isn't far from truth.
Definitely good reason to complain on the 1st quarter DPI calls. The first on Alexander easily could have been OPI. The second was clearly un-catchable, and it seemed the contact was pretty minimal. I think it was the third DPI call which was on Clark, and that one wasn't complete BS like the others. Clark definitely interfered with his route. My only question was it really DPI or should it have been defensive holding? IDK where the line is that differentiates the two.
Those bad calls definitely spotted them a lead. I was thankful that the officials made the right call on targeting, no hesitation on their part. And they appropriately reversed the penalty on the fake punt. If they "miss" either of those two calls, it could have been a blowout.
After the Moto Int, we had a good opportunity to tie the game. Instead Jerod took some coverage sacks and we didn't get any points, we pin them back on the 10, but they drive 90 and score 7. In the 2nd half Clemson was not bailed out by any DPI, instead Watson made several incredible throws as he was about to get crushed by our DL, and their receivers made some phenomenal catches. In particular, Renfro,
Scott (I think it was him on that last 3rd and long that led to their last TD)Cain, not to mention the sideline interception catch. They certainly didn't need the refs in the 2nd half. They made some great plays. If they miss just one of those, it could have been a different outcome. I know, I know, that is why the 1st half DPI calls are even more frustrating. But that is why, as a player, a coach, or a fan, you can't ever expect to get a call, you have to have the mindset, that you won't get the call, and you better do enough to overcome that if you want to win.Side Note: I am pumped to see Cam next season! He has completely balled out the last three games!
Small note, it was former 5-star Deon Cain on the last 3rd and long backbreaker over Shegog. We will see him again next year and then he is more than likely on to the NFL.
Agree Cam is quietly having a huge season. If he has like 130 yards in our bowl game we could have two 1000 yard receivers for the first time in school history, a year after having our first 1000 yard receiver period.
that one made me cry. For some reason as soon as I saw that throw, I thought "Awesome, a deep floater from Watson means at worst we bat it down,at best we intercept it." Then Cain came down with the pass...
Ah, yes, Cain. Thank you. Couldn't remember off the top of my head, and didn't have time to look up.
Contact before the ball is thrown = holding.
Contact while the ball is in the air = PI.
On that call in particular I think a holding call would have been accurate, but they chose to go PI which I don't think holds up.
The one on Alexander I think was truly the worst. The receiver seemed to have no clue where the ball was, while Alexander is trying to put himself in position to make a play on the ball. Then the receiver runs into Alexander while trying to locate the ball. Probably should have been a no call, but I think some refs always throw flags when you get major contact like that between a receiver and a DB. OPI is so rarely called, that you know its going to be on the D.
I think similarly with uncatchable balls, some refs get so locked in the defender and receiver, so the ball never really gets located by the ref to determine if is catchable. It seems the only time a ball is ruled uncatchable is along the side lines, where it gets plainly obvious there was no way catch the ball inbounds.
Re: Alexander.
That was an incomplete pass and the DB looked back to the ref for the call. The DB's NEVER look to the ref after an incomplete pass. I'm pretty sure the receiver never looked to the ref and they ALWAYS do. Body language speaks volumes, the players on the field knew what the right call was.
What made that even worse is that it wasn't a good throw, wasn't a good reaction by the WR, our defender had better position on the ball and was interfered with in even attempting an INT, and for all the effort, DPI was called. And all of this happened on I want to say 3rd and 14 or so. Clemson goes on to score a TD on the series when we should have gotten the ball back after forcing a 3 and out.
And this was right after a previous series where Clemson got bailed out on another bad DPI call on a 3rd and 10+ on another series where they went on to score. Between both points on the board and momentum, those horrendous calls had a major impact on the game on Saturday, and considering how the rest of the game played out it absolutely isn't wrong to have the belief those calls ended up costing VT the game.
Two of the bs DPI's happened on the same series, both on Alexander. First one they were both grabbing each other so it's kind of a toss-up, the second one was clearly not DPI.
I still think to say that the refs cost VT the game is a little harsh/extreme. Yes it was a TERRIBLE call (ACC needs to fix the inconsistency NOW....it's shameful), and it most certainly IMPACTED the game, but I won't personally go so far as to say it lost us the game. IMHO, very rarely in sports do officials cause the outcome, they certainly impact it, but cause is again a bit harsh to me. If we had been able to execute a little bit better in the first half or gotten another stop in the second, we're talking a different ball game. If T-Mac picks up a block on that last play, we probably score. So again, I'm not saying the refs didn't impact the game, but I don't think they lost it for us.
Agree with everything you said. This was basically the point I was trying to make above.
Not capitalizing on the interception inside Clemson's 40 yd line had much more to do with the outcome than the refs did.
Clemson is a top five program because they're really good. To beat a really good team, you've GOT to make them pay for every turnover they give you.