He posted on 247 and gave perm to post this. Figure our staff will post up something but wanted to give some perspective.
Seems LT haters should be quiet based on his review
I am going to review each passing attempt we had in the game.
1st Half:
1. 2nd and 10 throw to Coles who was inside receiver in trips. Coles ran an 8 yard stick route and was slow getting his head around, ball bounced off his chest for a drop.
2. 1st and 10 WR screen to Knowles. Very tough play to run against that secondary as they reacted very quickly. Knowles catches the pass and hops backwards for no gain. He just looked scared after he caught the ball.
3. 3rd and 14 Coles, who is again the inside receiver on the trips side runs a deep in route. Thomas has a good pocket, steps and delivers the ball on the money for a long gain. Execution was perfect on this play all around.
4. 1st and 10 we go hurry up play action and Thomas has nothing down the field and throws the ball away.
5. 2nd and 10 we go play action off of a zone read look in the shotgun and Thomas throws a 9 route to Knowles. Thomas throws the ball in the only place he can while under pressure from two defenders. Knowles who was covered well drops a 28 yard-gainer. This was probably the best throw from Thomas in the game, considering the circumstances and although it would not have been an easy catch, it is a catch that has to be made.
6. 3rd and 10 Alabama brings a blitz that we pick up decently and Thomas throws an 8-yard hitch route to Knowles, who again drops the ball. I am pretty sure the route was supposed to be run at 10 yards and Knowles cut it short as well.
7. 3rd and 4 we have a tight trips bunch to the left and the outside receiver Knowles come across on a crossing route. Very good play call here and a good design. Knowles is open for an easy 1st down and drops a ball that is thrown right into his stomach. Thomas overreacted to the rush on this and threw it off of his back foot, but still put it on Knowles, although didn't lead him. Huge dropped pass to stop the drive.
8. 2nd and 7 Alabama brings 6 men on a blitz and Thomas goes to his hot read, which is Coles on a slant. Coles looks back and forth at the defender 3 times on his route, runs half-speed and then completely stops on his route. He was loafing and scared to get hit and this ended up being a pick 6 for Alabama's Sunseri.
9. 1st and 10 we go play action and Knowles runs a double move. Great protection up front and Knowles beats his man deep. Thomas overthrows him by a couple of yards and we miss out on a huge play. So far this has been Thomas' worst throw of the game.
10. 3rd and 6 we run two crossing routes underneath. Coles, slows down on his route, which causes Thomas to lead him a bit too far. Thomas throws the ball low to Coles, which where he is supposed to throw it, which the way the coverage was converging. If Coles doesn't slow on his route and actually makes a good effort to catch the ball, we have a completion. Because of Coles loafing, the pass would have been a yard short of the first down. If he just runs his route here, the ball is on him. Even then, the ball bounces off of his hands on a ball he should have caught. Thomas got the blame from the announcers but should not have on this play.
11. 3rd and 1 we go play action and Miller and Wang get split by the DT without even touching him. Thomas is forced to roll right and throw the ball away as the only receiver on that side is blanketed.
12. 1st and 10 Thomas goes play action and is looking deep. Redman gets absolutely manhandles in pass pro and Thomas is forced to get rid of the ball to Edmunds on a check down. Edmunds makes a nice grab for a 5-yard gain.
13. 3rd and 9 Redman again gets destroyed in pass pro and gives up immediate pressure and a big hit on Thomas. Thomas tried to hit Knowles on a corner route in the end zone. Again, on this route, Knowles thinks he is covered and slows down on his route before gearing up again. The Alabama defender drops an INT in the endzone.
14. 3rd and 8 Alabama blitzes and just about every OT gets beat. McLaughlin gets beaten immediately and gets away with a huge facemask. Wang doesn't see the blitz and blocks nobody and Miller is put in a bad position because of Wang. The forces Thomas to immediate role the opposite direction where this play is going. He escapes pressure and throws the ball away.
2nd Half:
15. 3rd and 5 we give up some pressure and Thomas has nowhere to throw the ball. Redman looks like he is trying to stay stuck to his defender, they had a robber playing underneath the crossing route (Coles, who is again worried about getting hit) and Knowles, who the play was cleared out for, runs the wrong route and isn't even an option. In fact, he doesn't run any route on the play. Thomas is forced to throw the ball away.
16. 2nd and 11 we go play action and there is quite a bit of pressure. Thomas gets his leg hit as he is throwing it and the ball sails out of bounds. I think Thomas could have moved around in the pocket better on this play and bought himself some more time.
17. 3rd and 11 Thomas gets some late pressure and throws another 9 route to Knowles. The ball is thrown outside, where it has to be with the safety coming over the top. Knowles doesn't concentrate at all and the ball bounces off of his facemask. He wasn't even close to catching this pass that would have went for 40 yards and a big first down.
18. 2nd and 9 good protection up front but everyone is being sent deep downfield. He tried to throw a long ball to Parker who is just eaten up on his 9 route and falls down on the play. No chance to complete a pass anywhere on this play, just well defended.
19. 1st and 10 we get an illegal motion, which was also an illegal formation (We had a few others that they somehow missed) and we get a penalty. On the play Thomas scrambles for a 1st down but it gets called back.
20. 2nd and 12 good protection and Stanford runs a really nice quick corner route. Thomas steps into it and puts it right on the money for a 16-yard gain.
21. 3rd and 2 Alabama brings a blitz and we run another crossing route to Knowles. Thomas puts it on the money under pressure and Knowles hangs on for a 1st down, thanks to a generous spot.
22. 1st and 10 great protection up front (probably the best all game) and Thomas throws a deep ball to Knowles who is blanketed. Thomas just puts it out of reach were it can't be intercepted. Every other receiver is double covered on the play.
23. 1st and 10 Coles runs a crossing route and again half-asses and alligator arms the throw. The ball was thrown exactly where it was supposed to be and Coles decided not to catch the ball.
24. 2nd and 10 Good protection, Coles runs a 13-yard curl and drops a perfectly thrown ball.
25. 3rd and 10 We run crossing routes and Alabama is just sitting behind them in a zone. They knew exactly what was coming and Thomas was forced to avoid some pressure and threw a pass to Edmunds in the flats, who again dropped the football to complete the very rare 3 drop, 3-and-out series.
26. 2nd and 9 Great protection and Thomas throws a deep in route to Knowles, who drops a another pass. This one was a higher throw but should have been easily caught.
27. The freshmen gets beaten badly on this play and gets beat inside on a play where he had a running back helping him outside. Probably would not have mattered anyways as there was nothing downfield. Play results in a sack.
I can't seem to find one play but I remember it being a throw to Stanford where Thomas had to put it just over an LBs hand and try to drop it in. Stanford didn't jump or put his hands up on the play and pass almost got intercepted by the safety. Without him trying to make a play on the ball, it is hard to know if the pass was catchable. I do know if he threw the ball even a couple of inches lower, it would have been tipped.
That was the final throw of the game for the team. All in all, there were 11 drops or receivers stopping on routes leading to incomplete passes or an INT. Five of the plays Thomas had the throw the ball away and one play he was hit while releasing the ball and the ball sailed out of bounds. On one incomplete pass the primary receiver ran the wrong route and n another play the WR fell down on his route.
As for positives in regards to Thomas, his mechanics were much better than last year and he did a much better job keeping his eyes down the field. He struggles some with pocket awareness and movement and missed the big deep ball to Knowles. He also threw some long throws that people would have been raving about, had receivers not dropped the passes. His reads in the zone running game were accurate. A couple of times, plays were blown up and probably looked like bad reads but it was due to an inside blitzer disrupting the play, in which there is nothing he can do because he is reading the DE.
Comments
Not sure it's possible with the block quote, but if so, I'd recommend you go in and edit this post to put some line breaks between each play to make it more readable. I saw this over at 247 also, and highly recommend everyone read it. Don't know anything about Shabutie, but if he is to be trusted, it's a really good breakdown of all the pass attempts.
Agreed. Great breakdown, just a bit hard to read. Thanks for posting; I was hoping to have some time to go back through the replay myself to find these things, but this saves me the time!
working on editting. on my phone as apparently internet is down in the area where gf lives....
Much appreciated. Great read.
Good read thanks for posting
It is a good read. Makes me look at Logan more optimistically, but I still have a hard time with the overall passing game performance. This explains why.
Knowles and Coles need to be benched. At this point the corps needs to know that every spot is up for grabs. I want to see Caleb and Stanford step up and push for starting roles. Meyers too - his effort is what we are looking for and it should be recognized and rewarded. Especially after this last game.
Caleb is at RB now and reports indicated he wasn't making much progress at WR. Given the issues we've witnessed at WR, it's pretty apparent to me he must have been having a lot of trouble with the position for that move to have been made.
Can we get the source?
I am new to 247 but from posts he seems to be a respected football analyst especially when it comes to the offensive side of the ball. Apparently did a write-up on the OL last year.
I'm not questioning his credibility, I just want to rub it in a friend's face who has been mercilessly critiquing Logan and I'd prefer to give him the original link.
http://virginiatech.247sports.com/Board/59428/Analyzing-each-pass-attemp...
paid access only but he had given permission to post on other websites
The receivers did seem to be able to get open, and Knowles proved he can get behind elite DBs readily. They just need softer hands, and to play more aggressively.
It's encouraging that there were receivers open on quite a few of the routes. If they catch the ball on half of the throws that were dropped, it's a very different ballgame, possibly a different result.
Obviously this guy knows more than me, but don't treat this as ground truth either. There are a few plays that could be interpreted differently.
1. That ball was thrown behind Coles. He should catch it, but LT throws the ball with some zip and when you're just getting out of your break, that ball has to be thrown on the money.
6. Definitely a drop by Knowles, but he was not open either. It has already become apparent that our receivers were just not getting any separation.
7. Absolutely pathetic drop from Knowles, but again that pass was thrown behind him. He has to break stride to catch that ball. I also don't know if that first down would have been a guarantee either.
8. Coles was open when this play began. However, my guess is that he was expecting it immediately and when Logan hesitated, Coles stopped. He obviously should not do that, but Logan should never have thrown that pass either. Also, only 5 people blitzed, and the OL + Edmunds looked to be holding up fine.
10. I would have preferred he throw it to someone else, but I understand throwing that pass low. Logan's footwork leads A LOT to be desired on this play, though.
-There's a read option in between his next throws that LT should not have kept. Edmunds would have had a step on the LB going to the outside and there was miles of space out there.
-There are a few plays after the INT that I didn't like. First, LT should not be running the option. He's either going to get hurt or set up a player to get whacked. Both time that we ran the option this game we looked awful. Second, that delay of game penalty is just absolutely inexcusable. I know we only had one timeout left, but you just cannot take a penalty like that on 3rd down at your opponent's 20 yard line.
13. That dude gets beat quickly, but again LT shows poor pocket presence and makes an awful decision to throw that ball. Either step up or take the sack. Regardless of Knowles letting up, that route was completely covered up.
15. I will agree that Logan had nowhere to go on this play, but the criticism for Coles being scared going over the middle is completely unwarranted. And wtf was going on with the bizarre read option the play before.
16. Quick pressure, but Logan should be able to step up in the pocket and avoid the pressure. The check down in the flats was also WIDE OPEN.
22-23. There is a throwing play between these two throws that was ignored. It was a pretty poor pass over the middle to Stanford.
Everything else he wrote I completely agree with. A few more quick things I noticed since I just basically rewatched the whole game.
-Holy crap our defense is good. Half the time when our drive would end, you could fast forward 30 seconds and Bama would be punting already. That is just spectacular.
-Our special teams did look very bad. Our returners never had any lanes to run through and our coverage was obviously unsatisfactory. Since Bama has 4 star players playing special teams, though, you got to expect there to be some disparity here.
-I love how quickly Edmunds accelerates. Once he gets to the line, there is no chance that he gets stood up.
yeah I know in the end these are just his opinions and perspective on the plays and those will differ a bit. I dont know enough about football to ever analyze like this lol
I'd love if Loeffler would give us an analysis like this but he obviously wouldn't. In all fairness I think LT's play depends on one's opinion. As you know, I thought Logan was much improved over last year and poor receiver play made him look bad so I see this as more optimistic. I think you tend to look at logan through a different lens that can lead to a very different perspective. I think it's important to see both sides, but also to see where he goes from here.
The receivers were who really let the offense down in my opinion. There were several procedure penalties that weren't called and a few that were. I think DJ looked scared when running across the middle, especially on the pick-6 play--he looked right at Sunseri and watched him run by him. Against WCU I would like to see the younger guys come out and get a lot of playing time but at the same time I would feel awkward about abandoning DJ and Demitri as they are the best 'athletes.' But as someone previously said, the best players should be playing regardless...Anyways, thanks for this post.
Without question our receivers have to step up. I will preface my next comment by saying that new/rusty receivers are almost doomed from the start when going up against the stud DB's of Alabama. But with that said, when you can't get separation against man coverage and your run timid routes through zone coverage, life becomes hella difficult for your QB.
If you don't mind, I will reply to your comment. There are a couple of things for you to keep in mind. First off, I didn't go into a huge amount of detail on this. I didn't go into detail on why Thomas' footwork was wrong on specific plays, or why and how receivers were getting jammed at the LOS. The longer and more detailed I get, the more it tends to bore people so I kept it very short. My post was more focused on the quality of Thomas' reads and throws and the receivers route running and attempts at catching the ball.
1. It was a little bit behind Coles (Bounced off his left shoulder, moving right) but if Coles actually snapped his head as quick as he is supposed to on that route, it would be an easy catch to make. There is a very small timing window on that route, especially against Alabama's defense so it had to come quickly.
6. Yes. Also, the route was probably not supposed to be run 2-yards short of the first down.
7. I mentioned that Thomas' threw the ball off of his back foot band didn't lead Knowles. Often times when receivers are dropping a lot of passes, the QB starts aiming the ball and make throws like this. With that much space and only one LB in the area, Knowles should have been able to pick up that 1st. Then again, if he decided to tippy toe after the hypothetical catch, the play probably goes for no gain.
8. I think Thomas waits because Mosley, on the delayed blitz, is near throwing lane for a pass to either Coles or Byrn. Coles job on a hot throw like that is to be primary option and keep eye contact with the QB, not to look for the safety that he is worried will hit him. They did only bring 5, while dropping a zone defender on the weak side but there was definitely pressure as LB Depriest was bull rushing Andrew Miller into the lap of Thomas as he threw the ball.
10. Yes, the footwork was very bad on this play. As for the decision, the CB looked to be baiting Thomas into a long throw in the flats. Stanford was open but well short of the first down marker. The play was designed to be cleared out for Coles and although he was defended fairly well, the opportunity was there.
I didn't comment on the running game at all in my post but as far as the options go...
The first one we ran in the game (First play) was actually very well designed. Thomas made the right read and pitched it out to Coles who had a ton of room. Gibson didn't seal Mosley and Knowles had a very soft attempt at cutting Clinton-Dix and those two defenders were able to stop the play. Alabama had no pitch man on the play and the tackle came from guys that were accounted for with blockers. Schematically and QB wise, the play was run well. If Coles plants his foots and gets upfield he would have gained some yards, despite the blocking failures.
The other play where he faked a sweep to Edmunds was a designed keep and there was no option to give the ball. This is easy to tell because Thomas appears to be reading a defender on what becomes play side (Opposite direction of Edumnds) but there is no unblocked defender on that side and therefore no read to make, due to it being a designed keep. You can also tell by the way Edmunds carries out the fake, that it is designed to move the LBs some, which it does and give Thomas a crease.
The delay of game was an awful and very costly penalty.
13. This play is hard to judge. It is a deep corner route against man coverage and these throws are made before the receivers even start their cut. When the receivers beat their man, the QB looks like a hero because he threw the ball before he was ever open, when it is well defended they looked like they weren't reading the defense. What Thomas should have seen was the outside leverage by the corner, who had safety help in the middle. Thomas pressed too much here and Knowles slowed on his route.
15. Coles is looking for a defender to hit him right after Thomas releases the ball. It wasn't a big deal on the play but more indicative of what he was doing all game while going over the middle.
16. Yep, thought his footwork was really poor here as well. Like I mentioned, he did much better keeping his eyes down the field but ended up not seeing and feeling the rush as well as he should. Ne needs to do both well.
22-23 I mentioned the throw to Stanford in the summary at the end. At this point we are in 3rd and 10 and down by 25 points and he is just trying to get a big gain. The ball was actually thrown in the only place it could. It went about 2 inches over the fingers of Mosley who was in an underneath zone on the play. Stanford didn't make in attempt on the ball so it is hard to tell how far off the pass was. He had a shot at hitting Knowles on this play who was running a corner route but he decided to try to squeeze it in to Stanford.
Your analysis was spot-on
Yeah I can agree with this. When I said I don't like LT running the option, I didn't mean for it to sounds like he made the wrong decision. When I saw him pitch the ball on that first play my immediate thought was "hell yeah big gain", only to be disappointed when Coles ran straight for the sideline. I meant that comment to mean that I think the option is at its most effective when you have agile QB's running it. Logan is not agile. Cam Newton was agile and his cutting ability combined with his size made him damn near unstoppable. Logan is at his best when he can get some momentum and lower the boom, which is more difficult when his initial movements are to the sideline.
These are the throws where I disagree with you.
13-I couldn't see the route, but I actually thought Knowles did a good job of coming back to the ball and preventing an INT on this play.
17-This ball was under thrown, Knowles has a step on the DB closest to him at the Hokies' 42 yard line.
However because the ball is under thrown Knowles has to slow down and is left with awkward body position. Notice how Knowles body position has shifted so that he is leaning backwards by the time he reaches Bama's 47 yard line
He still should have caught the ball, but I put this drop partially on Logan for under throwing an open receiver. I would prefer to have seen him put the ball a little further down field and to Knowles' outside shoulder, away from Clinton-Dix.
I really like this kind of a breakdown, thanks for posting it! It's amazing that there could be so many drops or bad routes like that. It looks like almost every pass went to Coles or Knowles, who just weren't able to get the job done. I'd love to see some of our younger guys step up as the season progresses. It's early though, so maybe this will be a good lesson for the 2 of them and they'll use this as motivation! Get em Hokies!
Good. We certainly don't need the players to continue to dwell on this. I know they watched the film Sunday, so I'm sure Moorehead addressed what they need to fix and will work on correcting that this week. Not saying fans are wrong to discuss plays, but from a player perspective it's time to let last Saturday be and they don't need to revisit it with the media because we need these guys for the rest of the season.
I trust these coaches to fix the problems.
DJ, everything will be forgiven if you level LBs again like this!
is this one of the blocks thats illegal now?
Someone got hit hard so yeah, probably.
I do believe Greer filed one of these afterwards:
Not enough turkey legs in the world for that.
We have those exact ones in the Navy too!