Surprised I haven't seen a thread on this yet. However there has been recent news of players deciding to skip the bowl games to prepare for the draft. I'm not sure exactly what skipping the bowl makes more time for as it has always seemed to be plenty of time for players to prepare for the combine or at least their schools pro day if they couldn't make the combine.
The biggest name I know of is McCaffrey from Stanford. Baylor RB has also said he was skipping their bowl to prepare. I personally think this is a pretty selfish move. Mostly because as I stated above there is time after the bowl to prepare. It's not as if the combine is a week after the bowl game or something.
What are your guys' thoughts on this? How would you feel if Baron, Ford, Ekanem or Bucky decided to sit the bowl out?
Comments
If the player is heathly I think they should stay with the team until the bowl game is done. Those other players depend on you.
Isn't this a scaled down version of the decision to declare early? I mean, as a fan you want good players to use up all their eligibility, but the common thinking is you don't risk your career playing another year of college ball when you can start making the monies now.
Well, in this case, they are opting for controlled training to increase draft stock vs. yet another opportunity for injury. Not saying I think it's the right choice, but I think we're being inconsistent to play the team loyalty card on this but not declaring early.
I don't see it that way. If they took off the full year I'd agree with that thought process, but they stayed in school and supported the team through the whole season (minus a bowl game). If their team hadn't made a bowl game it would be a non-issue.
It may not only be to improve their draft stock, but to return to a healthy status as they have been injured all year anyways.
Then why not championship week? Or rivalry week? If you're declaring, discuss your concerns with the Coach, maybe he limits your snaps or game plans differently.
Coach Fuente already had a contract in hand before the bowl game, and Memphis already had a system in place that could be run by others (they could just pay someone else). Fournette, et al. are still enjoying (earning) the benefits of the scholarship that got them to this point, don't have another job lined up, and depending on the player, much harder to replace in the scheme than a coach.
Are they, though? Fournette isn't going back to class.
and lsu is still getting the benefits of fournette playing for them all year, since they are getting a bowl pay out regardless of him playing this game
Skipping a bowl is far different from declaring for the draft early. Players who skip bowl games have been part of the team for the entire year, the coaches have practiced and formulated game plans with those players in mind. Even though many believe that bowls are meaningless exhibition games, the stats count for individual players and the result counts in the win-loss column. For Tech, a 10 win season is at stake. Football is a team sport and players have the duty to support their teammates. What if a star player on a bad team decided to skip the last three or four games? By the way, I live in the middle of Razorback country. If we lose this game, I am going to catch Hell from friends, co-workers, and especially my son in law.
By this logic coach Fuente should have been coaching Memphis' bowl game last year instead of recruiting for us.
I don't blame the players one bit for looking out for #1 if doing so doesn't hurt their draft stock when coaches are out there doing the same thing.
I think coaches should coach their bowl game. I'd also like to see when a coach leaves a school players they recruited able to leave or get out of NLI.
Agree with this 100%. I would like to see the same thing when a school is punished by the NCAA (e.g. bowl ban, TV ban). That would allow a player to continue having success while punishing the institution.
That already happens for teams banned from the postseason. Players from Penn State, Miami, et. al. were allowed to transfer freely without having to sit out a year.
Not always it's a case by case event.
Yes, but when there are significant sanctions levied, I can't think of a case where they haven't ruled that the players may freely transfer. It's delivered on a case-by-case basis, but is probably one of the more consistent things about NCAA rulings.
The 2 big ones: fournette and mccaffrey have had injury problems all year. I don't have an issue with either especially at the RB position. If they were in the playoffs though I'm sure they would be playing.
the only "amateur" aspect of college sports any more is the fact that the athletes don't get paid. bowl games are about money for the schools and coaches (assuming they get bonuses), so i have no problem with a player skipping a meaningless game, just look at jaylen smith from last year.
this is the system that the ncaa and its member institutions have created and quite frankly i hope more student athletes take this route.
as for bucky, ford, etc doing this: i'd say "thanks for all you've done and good luck at the next level"
Bowl games don't matter unless you're in the playoffs. Save yourself, get paid. At the end of the day, they owe us nothing. At it's worst, some young guys on the depth chart get some much needed, basically exhibition, game time. People are making this into such a big deal.
it's made a nice little hot take factory
I'm fine with it either way. As a fan, I would be disappointed if one of our best players didn't play in the bowl game because that impacts our chances of getting the win. But for as much as these kids do for the programs I think they have the right to do whatever they want at this stage of the game. Playing a full regular season should be enough. I can see both sides of the coin, though. Ultimately, I think it should be up to the player to make their own decision based on what they feel is best for them.
I'm with the players.
Which players because August Conte, Jaylen Smith (the player everyone tries to compare this to) and others have said this is not ok and and abandonment of their teammates.
They don't have to remove themselves from the game if they think it's wrong.
Ultimately what could anyone do, make these guys play?
It's not about making them, it's about shaming them for giving up on their commitments to their teammates. Your injured or even badly a nagging injury by all means step back from the game but still go to practices, go to the game show your teammates they matter more. How many players on the team won't be going to the NFL? Most of them, these bowl games are their last chance and someone decided, "my future is more important than his current"
Shame them all you want, but if the NFL doesn't mind then I doubt it will matter.
And that's ok, like most things people talk about on the internet our thoughts on the matter won't change what's happening buts it's still fun to discuss.
If it's honestly not obvious to you, I'm with the players, period. The ones who choose to forgo the bowls to prep for the draft, great. The players who choose to view bowl participation as an obligation, great. I'm for the players deciding how and when they play and approach the game. I support the players' exercise of individual choice in how they fulfill their contract with their school to play football in exchange for a free education.
Skip it.
If I were a player on Fournette's team I'd like to think that I'd understand the opportunity he has and wish him well in his future endeavors. Much love, go do you.
EDIT: I thought I'd add a little bit more here.
When these were first announced I heard Cory Giger (our local ESPN radio guy) talking about this topic and, while he is a blowhard in many scenarios, I loved his take on this.
Most callers didn't like this move by the players and one particular caller went quite far in his criticism of the players who were 'quitting on their brothers on the team' and 'taking a money grab' and 'not living up to the commitments they made'.
Cory had this retort: For all of these players, going to college prepares them for their future, whether it is on or off the field. The opportunity exists right now to take the next step and the players have every right to do what is in their own best interest (like some people on here have noted, coaches do this all the time).
But he also pointed out that this isn't exactly the same as just taking the money. This isn't a question of whether the player will make a few extra bucks here or there. This is a question of changing the financial situation for you, your family, your kids, your grandkids, your great-grandkids, and so on. This is what Cory called 'generational wealth', if you manage it right.
Some players (not McCaffery, but others) came from very poor households. If you had a chance to pull your entire family into the middle class or higher, that is more than enough reason to make this decision and is way more important than whatever commitment was made to the school/team/teammates/etc.
Cory pointed this out, the local yokel on the phone started yelling about giving up on his team, and my mind was made up. Fournette has a daughter, no? Put her in an upper-middle class house, neighborhood, and private school and support her to the fullest! Had Darren Evans had this opportunity, I would have stood up and applauded him for what he had already done for us instead of judging him for not doing the last thing for us, too. I hope the teammates of the players who are actually sitting out feel the same way.
Plus, Guice is tight anyway, LSU will be fine.
Great post. And yep:
If they're not in the playoffs, the bowl games are pretty meaningless nowdays. Thus, skipping lesser bowls doesn't bother me
Remember, this isn't just a game to these players we're talking about, its a career and their future they're risking
And what is this game to kids not going to NFL? It maybe their last chance to play football. But that's not important.
they still get to play don't they? and it's still just a game. everyone has their own reasons for playing college football. why does fournette have to be the one potentially sacrificing something?
This
And we're not just talking about players with NFL futures. The ones generally doing this are the ones who are pretty much garunteed early draft picks. Players projected to even second round generally benefit more from playing than not. Fournette and mcaffery have nothing left to prove
They get to play without Key pieces to their team but hey I'm sure they will still have fun right because that's what's important everyone have fun.
well if they win this game, what's next...? and yeah, if you don't enjoy playing football why are you doing this?
So it's only about the future? Who cares if that kids last chance playing for his dream school is a lose because bowls are meaningless, his teammate who didn't play gets to go. A year make millions and hopefully not go bankrupt in 10 years because meh he still got to play. If I make a commitment to you whether it's to help you move some boxes from your house or play football with you or to help save your life in the zombie apocalypse and I back out I've failed you and whoever else I made hat commitment to.
You're seriously adding way too much drama to this.
Its called
/s
I feel like I'm listening to a prepubescent edgelord...this is embarrassing. You are acting like an Alabama t-shirt fan that thinks football players owe them their lives for their entertainment.
Yea not once have I EVER said these players owe me or any fan anything. Not in this thread or any other. They owe it to their teammates, their coaches and the school.
One of their coaches recommended the move...
A Baylor coach recommended the player skip the bowl? Because if you are talking about Fournette who has battled injuries I don't have an issue with that.
I guess the main problem I have is that you (and others) are impugning their character, saying they have no sense of obligation or constancy, and of course none of us have any idea what, if any, promises they made to coaches, teammates or otherwise.
Fournette was a #1 recruit out of high school, a slam dunk pro prospect for multiple years, and for all we know he told his coaches and teammates three years ago that this was his plan. There's no question that he worked hard on behalf of the team, kept his grades in order, and was overall a positive face of the program. We should acknowledge the fact that he's fulfilled whatever "obligations" he had to LSU, and then some. To go back to your tenuous analogy, if you decided to retire early and not fight some fire, that doesn't undo all the fires you fought up to that point.
Look up one comment I don't have an issue with a player who is battled an injury to miss the game like Fournette.
I support even the richest healthiest kid if they want to skip the bowl game. Their life, not yours.
My only line in the sand, which isn't firm, is whether that player is on a playoff team or not. That gets a little tricky to me, because those last two games actually mean something.
EDIT: I just realized that I have been assuming that skipping the bowl game is only limited to their last year in college football. This is the case for McCaffery, Fournette, and Baylor RB, but I thought I'd spell it out.
Why they are just games, what about his earning potential in the NFL. What does he owe anyone to be playing? That's 15/16 games he would have played in. If your ok with a player missing a bowl game then you should be fine with a player sitting out a game at any point during the year.
Agreed. Its either ok to sit out any game or none of them. However I don't think a player would ever sit the playoffs. I just can't imagine a player ever deciding to do that.
The flaw in your logic is that chosing to sit the bowl is effectively terminating the player's contract with the school. So, sure, a player can sit any game at any time, for any reason. That's they're choice. But that's the end of it. There is no reasonable expectation to sit a game and then be able to play later. You can't breech a contract and still be bound by it.
The question is, do players have the right to terminate their contract with the school at any time of their chosing. My answer is yes. To which your rebuttal seems to be, "But why can't they do it for any game?" And my response would be, "They can. But once it's done, it's done."
I saw that someone went through your comments and down turkeylegged every single one of them. I tried to offset that because I think it's stupid for you to get dinged for expressing your opinions, even though they are seemingly contrary to how many in the TKP community feel. FWIW, I agree with you.
It's all good some people just can't follow community guidelines. I don't mind being in the minority in my opionion, that's why I love TKP we can disagree and still mostly get along.
Then quit acting like it.
Please find me where I said the players owe me? I believe we owe them, that's why I joined the Hokie Club. These players do more for us fans than we can repay. But as several former players and current ones have pointed out they do owe something to them.
Congrats you are a clever sneaky guy and never specifically said those words, and yet much of what you imply screams otherwise.
Yea not really. I don't care if the games are kept secret and not shown anywhere. The debt is to their teammates plain and simple. But you keep on assuming you know better about my believes.
I don't know why you keep projecting your own beliefs onto the actions of others, but it's their 'debt', their priorities, and their life. It ain't your call and you ain't walking in their shoes. Give it a rest, Fireman
We can disagree about the topic at hand but I don't take kindly to someone questioning my honesty and motives. Coastal called into question my stated reason for not being ok with this and I responded.
I mean, it really isn't that important in the scheme of things. I would expect any of my friends to put their personal careers and/or family before an exhibition game I was playing in.
I bet most millenials share this opinion, while most baby boomers and some gen X's sympathize with the 'team'. Would love to see a statistical breakdown.
In the grand scheme of things nothing matters.
Obviously they can do as they please in this scenario but I just don't know how much extra time they need to prepare. If you have been battling injury the whole season then I really don't see a problem with it.
If you're healthy I think they should play. obviously they can't be forced to but to me I just think they should. people say bowl games don't matter but they do. Would you guys care if we didn't go to a bowl game since they "don't matter"? Would you care if we lost every bowl game we played in?
Bowl games are a chance at marketing your team. If we layed an egg in every bowl game to other power programs (which we tend to do more often than not, hopefully that changes with CJF) I'm sure people wouldn't be walking around saying "it's just a bowl game the game doesn't matter". Bowl games are a perception game. Who cares is Danny Coale caught they ball or not that game doesn't matter.
As for students not getting compensation that's a whole other thread but they do in terms of free school, free personal training and dieticians, the best gyms that other students can't use, free publicity for them as athletes. They may not get a monetary compensation but they definitely do get things for playing. And for those that go pro the ability to make millions right out of college. Not many other student has that capability.
not many other students have the same highly sought after abilities as fournette/mccaffrey. also all those perks you listed, they get because they have to be there. literally every single one of those is available as a pro with the exception of free education, but when you're making millions you can afford that
yeah it doesn't bother me, for a number reasons (we should've already won the game), but one of them is that it was a bowl game against michigan, not against UVA
and LSU has shown themselves to be a close team that is supportive of each other, winning/losing one game like this isn't going to change a program
Those perks are available as a pro. But point being your not going pro unless you play in college. If you want to play pro ball you play in college. Otherwise your going to have to pay for the personal training, the personal coaching and dietician and the gym to maintain or develop your current skill set all the while not playing in actual games. So they are getting benefits out of playing college ball.
But we didn't. Could've, would've, should've...we didn't win. We should've beaten Tennessee, but we didn't. That argument makes no sense. If we had only played better we would have won.
No it won't. But losing bowl games routinely will. And I'm not talking about one guy from one team but more of habit that may start occurring throughout college football. Do I really care about LSU or Stanford and their players?? No.
This conversation, to me, just shows the me first attitude our society has developed. Why not just skip your final season before the draft year if you are worried about becoming injured. The education upper level players receive is worthless to them and that is the reason that a large number of NFL players say that they are broke after their playing days are finished. If they had taken advantage of the FREE education they receive they might be prepared to actually get a job after the NFL.
They are, technically.
Most people that declare have already graduated (especially if they've redshirted). If not, they have very little coursework left and could easily finish once they finish their career. I've seen this argument a lot, but it doesn't hold well in my opinion.
how are they skipping their final season? They are skipping one game that not all teams even play.
Fournette and McCaffrey each have one more season of eligibility left.
Assumed we were talking about sitting out prior to being draft eligible to conserve themselves (i.e. sitting out his true jr year for fournette).
You mean like Jadeveon Clowney did?
Ah, the good old "this is what's wrong with society today" comment. Was waiting for it.
Click here to see what millennials are ruining next!
Eh. All it really shows is that a lot of people still like to think that they know what's best for the life of a complete stranger.
How do we know that a guy like Fournette is putting himself first? He has a daughter, maybe he is thinking of her first and how high first round NFL money can secure her future forever. Maybe he is thinking of other family members first that live in poverty and how he can help them too.
To say he is thinking of himself first when we have absolutely no clue about anything going on in his life seems unfair. We don't know what kind of conversations he has had with teammates or coaches about it.
idk, i hurd about this one guy named jesus from 2,000 years ago, said he was literallee the son of god and that we shoold follow him, sounds pretty me first IMO
/s
What movie or show is this from it's the greatest.
I only know it as the gif of the parakeet running that people have added various explosions and arms to.
Original:
Saving Private Parakeet.
Oh damn!
PFTTKPCommenterI know you put "/s" after this but really??
I want to respond to this but won't....smh
Guys, this is pretty clearly satire... I'm not sure why you downvoted it into oblivion.
For what it's worth, Cnote, I laughed.
Hmm, let's see if the Community Guidelines have anything to say about this...
Ah, yes, that's the one.
You realize he wasn't actually discussing religion, right? It was a Hot Taek spoof. It was satire.
I saw the "/s" so I know it's supposed to be a joke of some kind. I have no idea what Hot Taek (sp?) is, but I was trying to directly answer your question about why he was getting downlegged.
For the record, I didn't downleg him, figured it was a fairly innocuous comment that wasn't likely to spark controversy (and it hasn't).
Indeed most people just read right past it, but the guidelines do apply - don't discuss it, don't mock it, i.e. don't incite flame wars. Thank you to the TKPers who decided to just scroll past and those who decided to express their approval or disapproval appropriately via the voting mechanism.
To be fair, I posted the gif before he edited in the /s.
GIF responses were appropriate. I'm not calling out anybody for anything they posted in response because that was generally what I expect should happen around here.
Without going into (dangerous) detail, I submit that this society has always had a 'me first' attitude.
I think it is a scary trend and I am not really sure there is much the NCAA can really do about it. I do think that if this trend continue then I think it helps drive the expansion of the playoff to 8 teams to get the players on 4 more teams to continue to play in games that "matter".
Does anyone know whether these guys are traveling with the team? I think it would be really lame of them to not even be supportive of their teammates on the sideline.
There's a limited travel roster
It's lifted for bowl games.
Just in case other folks don't remember, Mark Leal, the best back up quarterback who should have been a starter, left our team before the season ended to take a non-football job. Same thing or not?
Was about to say this. You're on fire today HOAT.
Had an issue with that also.
I would have had a problem with it, too, had it affected our time of possession.
Think about how it came this close | | to hurting Andrew Ford and his playing future. Burn his redshirt for a single game and he isn't getting his chance later on. But it's all good Leal did what's best for him.
I forgot about that. I still remember him warming up thinking there was no way they would actually burn his redshirt in that game. Luckily, Brewer was tough as nail.
I was curious how Ford did this year.... he threw for 2665 yards with 26 TDs and 14 INTs starting 8 games for UMASS.
As a horse who does not believe in redshirting, *shrug*
Can horses shrug?
Exactly this. Did he give up on his team? Did he make a cash grab? No. He made a responsible, adult decision based on his best interest (the reason he went to college in the first place). Do you think his teammates thought less of him for it? I doubt it.
I feel like there was more to that story. If I remember correctly, he quit with like 2-3 games left in the season. I can't imagine any job needing a new employee that badly to tell them to quit D1 athletics.
The one claim to fame that Leal will have is that he helped extend our shutout streak by scoring a meaningless TD late in the Miami game blowout that year.
That situation was really weird. What job could possibly be so important that they would force him to leave what is literally a once in a lifetime situation (playing D1 ball) to do? Hell, I still regret missing time with my intramural basketball team because I was trying to get an interview, I can't imagine how starting a career is so important that you have to cut your college life short.
So would y'all mind that I don't fight that fire at your house on my last shift before retirement, I mean what if I get hurt or die in it just hours before I retire?
How many millions of dollars is your retirement worth? If you get hurt on your last shift before retirement, you retire. You still get your retirement. You don't lose anything.
Not really, if I become disabled or die prior to retirement my family loses out on about 2 million in total retirement pay and benefits.
I guess it's different everywhere you work but becoming disabled where I work doesn't do anything to your retirement, unless you leave your job. If I die, my wife get's all of my retirement at that point plus my life insurance (twice my salary).
Sounds like you need a new retirement plan.
State public safety retirement plans. For example did you know when a police officer or firefighter is killed their paycheck stop that day and it can take 6 months to a year for the family to get life insurance.
I work for the state fam.
VRS?
Yes.
Wish we had that in SC.
It's pretty bangin. I'm on the hybrid plan, not as good as the old one but still good. My dad is on the old one. He just turned 50 and can retire in two years.
I was on old one in '04-'05 could have retired at 40.
Whoa, how? Did you start when you were 10 or buy some time?
Picture of HokieFireman as a baby:
Hired when I was 20 could retire from Sheriff's office after 20.
That's right. I worked with a guy on VRS who turned down an offer there who always said he'd be retired by now if he'd have taken it.
Sounds like somebody might want to look into Long Term Disability insurance.
How are these two scenarios in any way comparable?
Earthworm Jim has a good question.
Also, for Fireman, you do realize that you just suggested that you could...quit doing your job to...avoid bodily harm?
Geez, this is sounding awfully familiar.
if you are receiving monetary compensation for something, also known as "a job", then i believe you should your job. these players are not in a job (because the ncaa says so) and therefor they can sit out (because the ncaa says so). if you have a problem with players sitting out, then your beef is with the system
You mean like that free training, food, education, housing? Things that he majority of firefighters in the US don't get.
Really? We're going to go down this road?
You didn't address hit point. Football players are not paid for their work. The NCAA says so. Just because you feel they are "paid" in other ways is irrelevant.
To your original ridiculous analogy, who might potentially die if a player skips a bowl game?
But I'll humor it. My understanding is that most civil service positions (fire fighter, police, teacher, etc) have certain thresholds based on length of service that must be attained in order to collect on pensions and what not. In fact most employment works in this fashion (vesting on 401k, for example)
If you wanted to stop doing your job before meeting those time requirements, I'm sure you are perfectly free to do so. But to compare the two situations is ludicrous.
If I come to work to ride the engine no matter what shift it's on or how close I am to leaving I'm expected to do my job. Not leave my brothers a man short while watching from the sidelines. If like Fournette players a battling injury then yes don't play but if your just leaving to go train like the Baylor RB your abandoning your brothers and team.
Stop comparing this to fighting fires, it's hardly the same.
Whoa!
](https://postimg.org/image/gdjz7fn67/))
We need a game. Isn't the fencing or hockey team in action?
college football is not a job, the ncaa says so, and im pretty sure federal courts have even said so, how do you not get this?
the fact it's not a job ruins all comparisons to actual jobs
I quit working at Radio Shack before the Christmas busy season to go to medical school. The management was upset but my coworkers told me to go because it was a great opportunity to advance into a career.
It is worth more for a player to go get his and take advantage of their window of opportunity than to play in a bowl game. I can't imagine risking a golden opportunity for an exhibition game
Did you give two weeks notice? Were they able to hire someone to replace you? Did you instead go to work but just sit in the break room while other did the work? These players could have stopped playing after last season if they we worried about injury giving their "notice" so someone else could be brought in.
I gave my two weeks notice. And so did Fournette and McCaffrey. Just because the replacement isn't up to the same level doesn't mean the players should be ridiculed
The comparison here is pretty ludicrous, in all honesty. You have a contract for your job that says you have to work until a certain point to earn certain benefits. That's a done deal. You opt out, you lose out.
The way the NLI and scholarship system is right now, a player can be kicked off a team (lose the scholarship) but stay in school if he can pay for it himself, or he can voluntarily leave the team (and lose the scholarship) at any point. It's allowable, there's no penalty, and that's just the way it works. Right now, none of these guys are actually getting any scholarship money paid on their behalf, because the semester is over, many of them have graduated with their degrees and they're done with college. It's their choice what they do.
If the schools are ultimately unhappy with this, e.g. their image starts to suffer with bad bowl losses when star players start opting out in greater numbers, maybe the schools and NCAA revisit terms of scholarships, requiring payback if certain milestones aren't met regarding bowl participation. I think that'd be a pretty heavy lift and sort of absurd. If NFL players can half-ass or choose to sit out the Pro Bowl (a vanity contest akin to most college bowl games, which are really just rewards for
goodnon-losing seasons), then college kids can do what they want.you stay at the station while the rest of your crew does the job. don't mind at all, enjoy retirement.
Did you honestly just equate emergency responders to playing division 1 football?
As others have said, this is at best an apple and oranges comparison. That being said, I expect you to put yourself/your family ahead of mine. If you were living lower/middle class, and had the opportunity to get a big paycheck and send your kids to a great school and improve quality of life for your family, the cost being that you quit your job at my expense, I'd expect you to quit.
A more appropriate question would be:
If I won the lottery the day before your house caught on fire, would you be mad that I quit when I won the lottery?
I'm going to be polite here and just say this: That is one of the dumbest, stupidest comparisons I've ever read.
You're comparing a life and death situation, a firefighter's job, to a kid who wants to skip an EXHIBITION GAME to potentially avoid injury and hurt his career.
Do I really need to spell out how ridiculous that comparison is?
Btw glad I could start the upheaval. /s
Merry Christmas everyone.
Why would you jump out of a perfectly good truck?
Truck parachutes are far rarer than people parachutes.
*shrug*
I don't see what the big deal is. Its a meaningless exhibition game at the end of the season for players who have literally nothing else to play for and everything to lose. Unless you're playing in the playoffs and have a chance for the title, what's the point? Oh yeah, I mean I guess for the seniors its their last game, but then again, with these kinds of players staying home, it opens the door for others (likely seniors) to get a bulk of the playing time that they wouldn't normally get, and I fail to see how that's a bad thing.
Plus, if coaches can bail on a team before the bowl season, I don't see why players can't, either. I didn't have a problem when Leal left, and I don't have a problem with McCaffery or Fournette. Do what ya gotta do to maximize your abilities at the next level.
I'm glad I'm not the only one drinking at 9 AM...
I skimmed through all the comments, so I am sorry if this has already been stated, but the problem I have with this argument is we are trying to make it into a black-and-white deal. The reality is nowhere near as simple. Does this player have a shot to go in the 1st round? Does he need to make one last case for NFL scouts? Does he have a family he needs to support? Does he have his teammates full support if he sits? The list goes on. My point is I think the entire argument is situational. There is no "Should they or shouldn't they?" What is the situation, what does the team think, what is best for the player, etc?
I thought about chiming in but 70+ comments is too much to dig through to make sure I don't rehash old arguments.
My stance: I think it's fine for them to do what they want. Their personal financial and family situations are not fully known to us, but often known enough to understand why they don't want to risk their future, particularly for these insignificant bowl games.
I'm late to the party but heres my opinion:
They have every right to, and I'm all for it. The NCAA doesn't care about these kids, why should they do any favors for the NCAA that puts them at risk. Hell, if a player stopped playing when their draft stock was high enough, I'd be for that too (even mid season).
Heres the way i think it SHOULD work:
1. You already have your undergraduate degree. Skip the bowl game = okie dokie
2. You do NOT have your undergraduate degree. Skip the bowl game = ok, but you pay back your tuition for the year. You committed to playing for the year, you play it out.
In general, I think that athletes that leave early should pay some tuition money back to the school (after your first paycheck or signing bonus). The school committed to give you an education, and if you forsake that opportunity, then that opportunity should be given to someone else.
I'd be surprised if the scholarship funds aren't directly transferred to the school on a semester-by-semester basis at the beginning of the semester. If you haven't paid by the 3rd week of the semester then your registration is cancelled... that's how I was billed as a student. Don't know why it would be different in this case.
Assuming this is the case, there's nothing to pay back, the player never actually has any of the tuition money in their possession, and there's no outstanding liability if the player isn't enrolled for the spring. So the money is automatically available for someone else.
Plenty of past cases where former walk-ons get upgraded to scholarship players based on merit and availability of a scholly...where do you think those funds came from? From players who quit the team or lost their scholarship.
I agree with much of what you said, but not this. Fournette's participation so far this year has put LSU on ESPN and CBS more than they deserved to be on, and they are likely playing in a better bowl game than they would otherwise have earned had he not been on the team. With the additional potential for LSU fans buying jerseys with his number on it, if not his name, I think LSU has already made out like a bandit on that deal so I don't think anyone should be made to pay anything back after the fact. (There are some caveats I'd like to bring to this statement but they're not germane to the discussion, so f@ck it.)
Since this situation is probably going to only happen to the real blue chip players, I think this logic would hold pretty regularly across NCAA FB.
Well, I don't really have a strong feeling one way or another as to whether it's a good thing for players to forego a bowl game. That's their decision, they have to live with it. But I wonder what the perception of them doing this is with NFL GM's. Yeah, players of this caliber have proven themselves on the field, but we've seen how risk averse some of these teams can be with off the field behavior. It will be interesting to see if this has a negative impact on where they go in the draft. They may end up hurting their stock more than protecting it.
I've read that McCaffrey's father works for the Broncos and is close to Elway and many other people in the NFL. He probably has spoken with them and gotten the go ahead to do it. So my guess is that they don't care.
Bowl games create added practices, and I know that at least during the last few mediocre seasons I've seen people comment that the additional practice time was the more important reason to keep the bowl streak alive. If someone wants to sit out and not risk injury because they think that's in their own best interest for whatever reason they decide, great--give those extra reps to someone returning next season.
I'm over here like, "I just want to see my family and friends around Christmas, eat good food, drink liquor, and go to the Belk Bowl next week to see the Hokies play."
I don't like it... but I understand it. NFL career, providing for your family, etc. I get it.
One reason that I don't like it, is that it opens up a big can of worms. What if Stanford was 4-7 at the end of the year and playing Rice at the end of the regular season? Would McCaffery have sat that one out? What if a player decided that he was just going to play conference games during the season and sit out for the cupcakes?
If you signed up to play and your team has a game, play it... unless you're nursing an injury. All kinds of stuff could happen outside of football to end your career. Athletic talent has a shelf life. Use that shit up.
It's true that you could be injured playing the bowl game. However, sitting out could cause you to miss out on an awesome opportunity that you just can't foresee just yet.
This is exactly the point. at what point do you not sit? Where do you draw the line.
Again if your nursing an injury I fully understand. But if you aren't and you signed up to play the whole year, then play the whole year.
Playing afraid of injury is no way to play.
There has been a counter to this that students are not "technically" on scholarship for bowl games. Many have graduated or have already completed their semester so they really aren't being compensated in any form for their on the field work.
I think most people would agree that skipping mid season games is wrong.
Plus, players are only committing to 12 regular season games each year that they play. Championship games and bowl games are extra.
If the team hasn't won their conference and can't win the national championship, what's left? Being Sun or Citrus Bowl champs? That extra line on Fournette's resume won't mean squat if he plays that game, breaks his leg, and never gets an NFL career.
My thoughts
However, if they are playing in lower tiered bowls, and are rounds 1 through early 3rd picks, I could see the argument.
Leg for the Ren and Stimpy meme. Takes me back.
Those players gave those colleges 3 years (minus one game) to use them in anyway they wanted. I don't fault them for skipping one exhibition game to start getting ready for the biggest night of their lives. The two in question are also projected to be first round draft picks. The difference between moving up or down in the first round could cost or make them a lot of money.
In the end you gave the school a good amount of time and at some point you have to do what is best for your future,
I do get the argument about it starting a downward spiral though. You could also look at the scholarship as a 3 year contract.
You could look at the scholarship like a 3 year contract. But the NCAA and the schools won't even give players that. Scholarships are not guaranteed year to year. Rest assured, if you arn't good enough, schools will find a way to nudge you out the door.
But people still want to get pissed at the really good players that go out and get paid before they have the chance to get screwed by injury
Well the NCAA could change the rules and allow the schools to insure these kids for several million dollars at no cost to the player. 1st round money to 5th round money is huge if someone gets seriously hurt.
If someone wants to sit out bowl game that is fine. I see no reason to force someone to play who does not want to.
Why it is selfish? If they go out there and get hurt, possibly career ending injury they can end up losing millions of dollars. What does the NCAA lose? Nothing, they are still making billions off these kids that they could care less what happens to them after their college career is over. I think it's selfish of us as fans to to get angry about it. Just like any other job always look out for #1 first, which exactly what they are doing and I applaud them for it.
The point of college is to prepare you for the working world. Make no mistake about it, these kids are majoring in football at their universities. I have absolutely no problem with him skipping out. He has a young daughter. He wants to provide for her. If skipping a bowl game helps him do that, who am I to tell him he can't do it?
Many people have said this already. I don't like it, but I understand it. They're being safe and protecting the investments that they've made. I don't like it because I think it probably interferes with the team-first mentality that the coaches have worked so hard at cultivating. I say probably, because I have no clue what their teammates actually think or how the coaches actually handle a situation like this. All I know is that Fournette's backup is a goddam beast and I'm sure he's chomping at the bit to get more carries. Maybe it's best for LSU and Stanford anyway, getting the back ups more game time experience. But it just makes me sad that these guys come in under the guise of getting an education, when some of them could not care less.
The fact is they have families and futures to worry about that we should have no say in, but at the same time some sort of commitment/expectation from the team.
At this point they're not 17 y/o kids anymore, they're adults that the schools/coaches purport to have been preparing for their future as human beings, so:
1. The shaming will take care of itself. If it works out for the team, great. If not, oh well. ("It's too bad the scoring streak ended against Stanford, maybe if Tyrod could've been there we'd at least gotten 7 points, but it is what it is. We had fun.")
2. Just make sure whatever they were getting in their "contract" with the school (facilities access, etc.), they aren't getting anymore.
Thank them for their service, wish them good luck, with some final life lessons on their way out the door.
I don't like it, but I don't have to like it for it to be ok. Something can rub me the wrong way, but it doesn't mean it isn't right. I'm not the all-knowing source of knowledge for morality. We'll put a band-aid on whatever problems may come from this stuff (if any).
I don't really know how this is really a discussion. Some of these players, if not most, are going to be top 5/10 picks and probably first round picks. They are about to make millions. Who can blame them?
Except not every player skipping is a top 5 pick or even first round pick. Shock Linwood the Baylor RB is not even on some mock draft boards.
I know that, that's why I said some of them, if not most. I understand some of them won't be first round picks because there can only be so many but I can't blame them not wanting to risk getting hurt on the last day of their college career so they can participate 100% in the combine, which we all know can really help elevate a prospect to higher round whether should be/turns out to being worthy of such round/pick
Where is the tipping point though? Every player who is going to declare skips bowls games? I know people say the teams can do without them but what if we start seeing starting QB skip the bowl games
Nothing's going to happen until you see a paradigm shift in college football. People long clung to the idea that NCAA football is all about playing for school pride and advancing oneself. While true that athletics provides the only viable chance for many young men and women to get a college degree, and that is a good (great) thing, it is increasingly obvious that NCAA football is nothing more than a business. Hence the efforts of players to unionize, demand pay, etc. The NFL basically says, "nothing to see here," while retaining a deal with the NCAA that kids have to stay in school 3 years, purportedly for their own benefit. Nope, that's ridiculous. The NFL wants a free developmental league and they've got it.
Outside of the playoff, the bowls exist solely to make money. For themselves and for the schools, but primarily for themselves. As soon as there is a time when bowls are no longer profitable, for whatever reason (but let's take mass exodus of players as an example), then things will change. The bowl owners will put pressure on the NCAA to refine its requirements about eligibility, or on the schools to put in specific language about scholarships and whether or not leaving the team at any point means payback, or on the NFL (yeah right) to drop their charade. College football is a business, and money talks. Only when the money stops flowing to the high-up people will anyone care at all. Right now, these players are acting in their own best interest in a system that profits greatly off of them. For those that don't get drafted highly, well that's the risk you take. For those that do get drafted and are rewarded with lucrative contracts, well then that's the reward.
I can only speak for myself and other players who have publically commented but if a player on our team, Div III horrible record not good team, decided he didn't want to be part of the team till the end, because that's what this is, we would have felt betrayed and have shunned him. Your taking yourself as more important than the team. Your injured don't play that's reasonable, but you can still come to practice, the game the meetings, show your teammates you support them in their game.
Edit: for example what keeps a player from saying screw the last weeks of class and exams I'm not playing in the bowl games anyway so they can't suspend me? Or screw it I play at LOLUVA we lost 7 games already I'm not finishing the season.
I would absolutely love to see that!
I wonder when we'll have to stay paying LOLUVa to play us like we do with all the other in state FCS shmucks we play year in and year out.
I think in the world we live in now, if you aren't playing for the NC, then I think these players mindset is on the NFL. At the end of the day, its the players right to skip the bowl game because its their future/health/career/etc so I don't think there will ever be a restriction on skipping game/bowl games to prepare for NFL since nothing is guaranteed at the pro level
Thanks for the great discussion everybody. I have modified my original take on this after reading through them all. I originally thought the players were being dicks for not giving back to all the team players who are not getting their opportunity, but have modified that to some of the players may be dicks for doing this, but some are not, and they should have the right to do it whether it lowers them in the eyes of the team or not. The players who do not have the opportunity to go pro are either doing it because they love the game, or needed the scholarship to get a degree, or both. They are still getting the same opportunity. You used to be considered letting the team down for coming off the field if you got concussed. The team can either rally around "next man up" or be sour over a player not playing, just like losing a coach. That is a team leadership position, often based on the attitude and situation of the player/coach leaving, and not one for me to make for them.
Why are some and not others? 1st round pick/5th round pick...what's the difference? They're making a good living, and with a position like running back, the longevity of the NFL career is short anyway, so why risk another game that will not give you anything?
Because some people are dicks and some are not. Some times it's not what you do, it's how you do it. I am not on a leadership position on their team, so am not in a position to judge whether they came off as I'm sorry I can't, but I'm pulling for you, or as I'm too good for this team now.
Can't believe this hasn't been brought up yet... but look at Jaylon Smith last year... torn ACL and LCL in the bowl game. He fell from a potential top 5 draft pick to early second round, a drop that cost him around $15 million dollars according to the link below.
Link
And yet he says he would do it all over again knowing the risk.
That doesn't disqualify his story from potentially being a cautionary tale to others.
Not sure what his motivation would be to say anything different, saying he would sit out in hindsight would just upset ND fans and keep his name in a discussion that I'm sure he doesn't want to be a part of.
Personally, I'd rather have 4x as many millions of dollars.
This is a capitalist nation. Still.
If you're mad at any player skipping a bowl game then please link to me the comment of you being pissed at Fuente for leaving his Memphis players to play the bowl game without him. Don't worry...I'll wait.
Honestly, I'm pissed Fuente couldn't finish the season with his Memphis Team. But, for all the right reasons, he turned the page. I have no problem with players doing the same thing to preserve their bodies. However, they should still be able to support their team. I see no benefit for the player to actually leave the team. They can train and prep for the combine anywhere. So, here's the question I haven't seen answered: are the players that are skipping staying with the team or running off to their pro agent?
Not with the team and that's my issue. They are not just not playing in the game they aren't there for the training or practice or fellowship with their teammates.
Maybe Connor should have sat out. Probably out for the whole second half of the Pinstripe bowl.
He probably has a concussion. Not to downplay the importance of taking concussions seriously, but this won't hurt his draft stock at all.
Did Pitt just lose their QB also?
yes. both on hits to the head that did not result in targeting penalties. I'm not saying whether or not I agree with those no-calls. Just stating facts.
Ugh I was just thinking that a pattern has emerged and it should be dealt with harshly on the next occasion.
The hit that took Peterman out i thought was helmet to helmet. But you know what? How can you help that? The rule is BS.
Fuck Pat Narduzzi.