So now that we have went to a paysite, are articles permanently locked to non members, or does it go public after ?
I find the lack of communication on this very bullshitty. While I haven't contributed the yearly fee, I did give yearly before the players club was even a dream in Joe's eyes. Now to come here, and not be able to access articles , with no statements, announcements or even a drop off communication....
Why so passive guys? Set up a black and white policy and quit with acting like the only kid to get a Nintendo for Xmas.
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It may be an accident.Instead of started a thread of complaints maybe ask the question via email or twitter or start a thread asking the question.Its not an accident, the Film Preview is exclusive to TKPC members for at least this bowl game.
I see, good. Maybe more people will join.
Looks at TKPC membership, yep it's working.
Damn there are some touchy people on here.
It was mentioned
Jesus Christ Alum links to answer a question and one of y'all touchy people downvote him. Jesus Christ. He won't say anything but someone should, go read the dam community guidelines.
As is life in any of these threads, if you come with a stance that says people need to donate to TKP, you're going to be met with downvotes and pushback
As it should because no one is in any position to tell people how to spend their money. I like this site and hope it stays but T.E. jokes and Emma gifs aren't worth $84 to me, now if you get rid of Foe-rensics I'm in (s)
I must be missing something because I don't where Joe, Alum or anyone else told anyone how to spend their money. I see them saying "some content will be for TKPC only" because the site is not only trying to grow, but Joe needs relief, so he's trying to hire someone to take the load off and if you want that content, you will need to buy a TKPC membership.
A little off topic but help an older guy out, how can you tell someone was downvoted? All I can see is a "+6" for comment score.
Because an hour ago the net score was negative and has since been offset by net upvoting.
My $0.02: Nothing about this has been passive. There have been multiple threads on this discussion and all of Joe's posts on these threads have been 100% transparent. Plenty of communication. Your last comment on the issue was:
Seems like Joe followed your suggestion and stopped 'hounding'
I hate when those spoiled rotten people who work their asses off every day to publish and maintain top-notch Virginia Tech content occaisionally ask for some small, finanicial reward, don't you? What a bunch of children, we deserve all this for free.
...that was sarcastic, by the way.
No skin off my back either way but if you are going to make some content "members only" they should make the whole site like that. There also should have been an announcement with a set date for when the paywall was going up
I get the frustration that people who haven't paid can't access everything, but that still encourages those who haven't to eventually try and get that access so they can partake in those kind of discussions. If you make the whole site a paywall, you can't get anyone in the door anymore, because nobody can actively see for themselves how good any of the content is because its all locked down.
Its like a drug dealer. You hook them on the free stuff, and hope they become addicted enough that they start paying for access because they're afraid to miss out.
Anything that is compared to drugs should be against the law and erased from the internet for all time
It's a solid business model that many successful businesses use. Drugs or not, it's a valid way to sell stuff.
Hopefully you don't drink, smoke or drink coffee or soda
Or use any sort of medicine at all.
Or eat things with sugar. Or play video games (stupid DLC packs)
never have never will
nope,nope, nope, and nope
This is entirely accurate. As an undergrad (06-10) I always visited 'another' site's game previews during the season (while it's probably not hard to figure out, I feel it's distasteful to name names in this kind of situation). On that particular site, the game previews are basically all you can get without paying. Since then, I became a frequent TKP reader, while still visiting the other site. When I decided to join TKPC, my choice in which site to support really came down to the fact that I already knew the content here is awesome. I have no way of knowing whether the protected content elsewhere is really good or not without paying first. If Joe hid everything French writes (which in my personal opinion ranks at the top of TKP awesomeness) behind a pay wall, people who haven't already bought in wouldn't have any idea that they're missing out on really in depth content. They just know there's this guy who posts stuff here and these other people say it's great but it costs ~$80 a year. I might be alone here, but I rarely throw my money at something with no real idea of what I'm getting for it.
Wow! Now how can I share my inside info
Join the club and get a shiny key next to your name!!
Need to add this to the TKP phrases list ASAP
As in the past, you've got the power to start threads and drop comments with whatever is on your mind. kicaboojooce's original assessment of "we have went to a paysite" was wrong. Every once-in-a-while an article will be exclusive for TKPC. That's it.
yeah, i don't mind that. I'm pretty sure elevenwarriors is ran the same way, and i consider these two sites to be the gold standard as far as team coverage goes.
I understand the financial challenges facing TKP and knew that this was coming, but I too would like a meta post and/or update to the TKPC page that details the exact benefits.
What articles will be behind a paywall? French's work? Recruiting Pieces? Anything by TKP Staff? All of these articles, or just some? Will this content always be behind paywall, or only during the season? What about basketball pieces?
I'm sure that will be coming, probably after the bowl game when things calm down. For now, it's just an attention-getter, to let everyone know that this is serious.
I'm going to copy and paste Joe's message from French's film review:
Consider it an incentive. There will be periodic, exclusive content for TKPC members.
I believe Joe is going to send an email to registered TKPers to make them aware of the exclusive nature of this particular post and hopefully drive some more membership. Simply put, after multiple rounds of asking people for financial help, it's not working. So from time to time, yes, stuff is going to be locked down for contributors only to incentivize new membership.
This is well and good, but you can't expect the average reader to read every single comment on the issue, especially in threads extending into the hundreds of comments. A brief meta-post would go a long way to explain how the new system works and the reasoning behind it. As Joe showed from his stats, 99% of visitors aren't active commenters and probably aren't hanging on every single comment in every thread, major philosophical changes should be explained to answer basic questions and mitigate angry responses (or at least collect them in one place).EDIT: On second thought, I think the updated message explains the situation fairly well.
I get that, but we've had at least 3 meta posts about TKPC membership, different ideas for how things are going to work, etc. over the course of the last year, including the TKPC progress bar on the main site, which links to an article describing what's going on. I think that's enough to catch people's attention, honestly.
I disagree, because that was all speculation not an actionable plan. And you need to think of it from the perspective of a lay-user, not a moderator. You're obviously extremely plugged into the community and know of every development, the typical user reads an article, scrolls through a few comments, sees the 10th gif in 12 posts and moves on. The whole purpose of the change (as I understand) is that most users don't know about the TKPC, if they don't know about that they certainly haven't been keeping up with internal discussions on the matter and don't understand the specific challenges that have led to going down this plan.EDIT: see above edit
FWIW I have been involved in basically zero "internal discussions" about anything. I patrol the comments sections. Joe controls the site. We talk about stuff occasionally but decisions like these are above my pay grade.*
I still maintain that prominent, front-page articles, each of which have said "status quo cannot remain in place with TKP as a completely free entity" is pretty obvious, even to the casual visitor. Even if 99% of the site's visitors do as you say, and just scroll down a bit and move on, that doesn't matter, because those people aren't going to donate. If we could literally get just 1% of TKP's visitors to contribute, we'd be funded and everything could remain open. The stats and analysis are all there indicating that this could happen easily. Right now, something like 0.3% of TKP's return visitors donate to TKPC. I am surprised that we couldn't get higher without an event like making a single article (for now) restricted.
* I'm not getting paid. Your TKPC contributions go directly to site content.
The first article on the main page after the white helmets should have been "A Message to all readers of TKP" and then the new policy would be in there. Or a mass email to current members that aren't Key Players.
Burying new policies in places people don't look at on a daily basis causes this frustration, especially when you have to find out by clicking on a French article, which is probably the pieces that people look forward to the most.
I'm not bitching, you need to do what you need to do, but the lack of proper communication is like pulling the rug out from under other followers. People like to be talked to directly.
I will also add, I have been a member of a Pro Teams fansite since like 2000. They pin all notifications at the very top in what you would call the "tracker" section for a period of time when they roll out new policies. People don't miss it that way.
I've emailed two of the meta posts regarding TKPC to all registered users who opt-in to emails. I thought those posts communicated the possibilities of what might happen to TKP if TKPC didn't reach its 1,000 member goal. There's a meta thread posted about the decision too.
There has also been plenty on ancillary discussion on TKP. Apologies if you missed those conversations, and if you or others feel like the rug was pulled out from under you. I definitely did not anticipate folks feeling as entitled as they are to the great work they've received for free for last 6+ years.
You are a business and you do what you need to do, and I get that 100%. I'm not complaining that things need to be paid for at some level. You have to keep this thing afloat.
I would steer clear of calling people entitled, however. Some might view that as political statement or it might just turn away people that would still visit the page without the paid content.
You own the place you can do whatever you see fit.
After some of the responses (not all, by any means) I think "entitled" is the only fair way to describe their opinion.
Yes it is fair for you and I to say it.
In any business, it is all about keeping good relationships with all your clients, the high paying ones and the low paying ones.
My point being that the owner or representative of any entity shouldn't alienate, belittle, or name call any level of customer.
The key play still gets some revenue from advertisements from page views. You don't want to discourage people (most of which I would assume are college students) from coming to the site.
Those young college students, that some feel and call entitled, can become Key Play members, and pissing them off by calling them entitled isn't a smart business decision.
I just want to say that I don't think this is a very fair statement. While I understand the reasoning to make exclusive content, I also am thinking to myself, "this site's mantra for a long time was that the content shouldn't be behind a paywall." It's definitely a direction shift directly against what the goal of the site was up until recently, and I think it's fair for some folks to think it's a little rotten.
Again, I don't think it's a rotten move. It's fair, as the content belongs to the site, and Joe can do what he wants with it. He chose that "having some content behind a paywall" is better than having no content at all. If this was ESPN we were talking about, many of us saying "this is fine" would be saying "what a bunch of a**holes!" (we've called ESPN that before for the very same reasons).
Except TKP isn't the website with the backing of a $40 BILLION company.
Wasn't intended to rub anyone the wrong way, was the best word my brain could come up with after staying up until 4:30 AM and getting 4 hours of sleep.
Plenty of discussion, yes. But that was it. There should have been some kind of sticky post on front page. I didn't realize any content had been altered until reading this thread. Like most, I understand the decision, but as transparent as you have been through all of this, I expected a little more. Chalk that one up to the holidays.
Well, any basketball pieces I write will continue to be seen as I am not on the TKP staff. I wont speak for Joe regarding other basketball content that the staff puts together.
I updated the message non-TKPC members got when they tried to access French's film preview.
I thought that was straight forward and clear. Apologies if it wasn't.
Just joined. How do I turn off the auto-renew?
https://www.thekeyplay.com/the-key-players-club
The very last sentence states:
Nailed it.
Also, you will receive multiple emails as your renewal date approaches as a reminder to cancel if that's your prerogative. (As soon as I code that all up.)
Muchas gracias to you both.
Well it was a good ride folks :(
Just graduated college and I'm not prioritizing the little money I have to pay for this site due to student loans and the goddamn struggle it seems to be in this age to find a job.
One of my favorite things to drink my coffee and read...oh well, not upset, this is how shit has to work to be sustained I suppose.
It's been real, it's been fun, it's been real fun.
Overreact much?
Its one article. One of the biggest complaints about TKPC from those who haven't joined is that there is no real incentive to join, so now the incentive is there, and you're going to bail on the site completely?
Everyone uses TKP for different reasons. I use it for game analysis and recruiting updates.
This site owes me nothing. I want nothing but the best for it and hope it gets to where it wants to get. That's fine. It's not my primary sports website. That's why I said I'm not upset or anything, it is what it is. Not having an incentive to join was not applicable to me in the first place, but if it gets more people to join I hope it accomplishes that.
Edit: was not trying to tell Koastal Kings to get a job, simply trying to explain 84 dollars a year is really not that much money.
Well I'm gonna be +200,000K in debt soon anyways haha. Maybe when things stabilize.
So whats $200,084 in debt? It's hardly noticeable among all your other debt, so it's fine.
...this is how these things work, right?
I'm all for telling people not to complain about stuff...but telling someone how to handle their finances is out of bounds
It was a joke.
No worries, I caught on haha.
I'm thinking he just left off the /s. Sarcasm will get after ya
Edited for the correct gif
Rocket, it might not be that much money to you, but for a lot of people, 84 dollars is a lot.
I understand there are people who legitimately can't afford it.
I simply don't believe that is the reason why only 0.3% of TKP's readers participate.
I'm able to afford a lot of things. I don't buy everything I can afford. Is it a necessity? Is the value good?
Agree. There is also a difference between justifying the value versus justifying the expense. I'm on the bubble myself and will be interested in seeing how I feel when I can't TKP for free. Either way, I commend Joe and company for making a great site. I would read the comment section of an article about knitting needles if they had TKP format.
Good luck finding a job, Koastal. I was very fortunate to have an offer coming out of college, but I have many friends who struggled for awhile to find one, or were underemployed because they couldn't find an opening in what they studied.
I appreciate it man. I'm getting dragged through an obstacle course from hell with this job I'm trying to get but man it get frustrating. I'm hopeful that after the holidays end everything will work out.
Ok.
What, I was only screwing around. In all seriousness (and I've mentioned this a few times before) why not have TKPC members ( that can afford and are WILLING) purchase memberships on behalf of others that are currently unable to afford it until said nonpaying members pick it up on their own (this is only a rough draft of course)??
I would never ask, nor be comfortable with others purchasing membership for me.
As nice as it would be to have the Benefactor's group, it would probably cost more to maintain a system like that than it's worth. I would be down to contribute and get paid back monthly, but I just don't trust people to pay me back unless there's a real system in place.
That's why I said it's only a rough draft. I believe others on here could come up with a savvier and more cost effective system/method to implement it.
Honestly, that was essentially the model we already had. There are 55-100k unique users per month and Joe was only looking for 1000 TKPC members. Those 1000 would in essence subsidize the site for everyone by pitching in enough to keep it free. However, not enough people were incentived to do that. So here we are.
I appreciate the feedback. Paying down debt on your student loans should be top priority. Hopefully, and for non-TKPC reasons you find a great job soon (perhaps we need a job board). I do want to emphasize you should probably expect to enjoy 19 cups of coffee while reading French's film reviews to the one where you can't.
I'm happy to hear that. One day I'll be a key club member, I'm sure of it.
you need to get a grip man. Joe has tried doing it the easy way. It didn't work. Now it has to be done the harder way. It's going to be uncomfortable for some, but that's just how it is. Stop complaining. You're not doing anything to improve the situation TKP is in. Go do some fundraising for TKP or stop complaining.
When I see an article exclusive to TKPC.
via GIPHY
Hrm. I don't notice anything different. Seems like a big stink about nothing/s
We need the game to get here!
I'm just looking forward to getting my key chain soon.
It's real nice.
I laughed entirely too hard at this... awesome gif
I understand why it's happened. I've donated in the past and hope to join at some point, but can't swing the lump sum payment at the moment. The only thing I'd suggest is to mark any Players Club only articles with "TKPC:" or something in the beginning of the title so that those of us who aren't able to contribute know which articles are off limits without clicking.
But you want people who are not members to click on it and think about joining.
Which is exactly what is making people angry. This was the most passive way of going about things.
Sometimes you need to ruffle some feathers to shake up the status quo. And clearly the status quo wasn't working.
In what way? It's been discussed, dissected and argued over for a year. It's a single article onan entire site if it makes someone that angry they should probably join and help keep it going, it means they care about it and when you care about something you should help it.
Most people don't give their hard earned cash to things that make them angry
Well those people had a year to give their hard earned cash to something that made them happy and 99.6% of them chose to not do so.... Sorry if that annoys you
It doesn't bother me at all I just know how it is to not have money to throw away like I said before this is no skin off my back either way because nothing really changes for me
Clearly... which is why you're on here telling everyone about how happy you are in not giving your money to join TKPC on this thread...
Because it doesn't bother you....
Are they angry at the requirement of angry they can't get what they want anymore. Plenty of people pay for things that they want people get angry when they can't have something and are willing to pay more for it, supply and demand. If someone is angry they can't read the great content then they should help pay for it.
I have no problem with them charging to make a little money off of their work but to think taking something that was free for so long and now expecting people to pay for it is going to ruffle some feathers. It's childish and ignorance of human nature to assume that it wouldn't rub some the wrong way
And it's even sillier to let the site die because you're afraid of monentarily upsetting a handful of people on the internet.
The situation has been discussed at length over several months through meta posts where Joe clearly explained the situation each time. At the end of the most recent thread of this kind, he commented that the overwhelming response was that some things needed to be exclusive for the TKPC and has done so. I get being frustrated, but this is just not an accurate description of the way things progressed to this point.
Passive my ass
Joe and VTGM (and numerous others) have been hounding people about this for a while. A year ago it was said in a Meta thread that if TKPC doesn't reach its goal, changes would have to be made. Joe has openly contemplated shutting this place down because its not worth the time and energy for something he doesn't make a dime off of. Throughout numerous Meta threads and comments in other areas (namely arising when people are bitching about either how expensive TKPC is or bitching about how there's no incentive to join TKPC) Joe has warned that he's been contemplating making certain posts open to TKPC only to incentivize membership. Hell, he even admitted that was his main learning lesson through the last Meta thread, specifically in reference to TKPC. And then he updates the message to show its to spur on membership and explain what's going on. What the f else do you want? If he put out another Meta thread, the bitching would just be about how it was about to happen, rather than the bitching that it actually did happen.
TKPC has existed for about a year now and our membership is less than 38% towards its goal. 99.6% of the active viewers of daily content on TKP are not contributing money back to TKP for the content they read. What we were doing before wasn't cutting it, so something needed to change. There has been an ongoing discussion about this for a year now and the people who run this site implemented a fix they felt was appropriate for the betterment of the website as a whole. Apologies if every one of the thousands who visit this website every day were not able to appropriately share their opinions on how this site should run in the previous year prior to this implementation.
Please see this comment for how this was perceived by many as a passive move.
http://www.thekeyplay.com/comment/509864#comment-509864
I get that, I just think it would be a courtesy to those who can't join, and people who are unfamiliar with what TKPC is would still more than likely click. Plus putting a tag on them creates a visual representation where people can see in the thread tracker how many articles they're missing out on by not joining. Just my $.02.
Welp, looks like this site has officially gone paywall. All I wanted was an open community where all Virginia Tech fans could talk about football, regardless of their economic situation. Looks like the people in charge are more ambitious than making enough to offset the server costs. I don't blame them, a lot of other sites do the same thing. Hopefully another site will take TKP's place though. How do I delete my account?
Bye felicia
here's a novel idea...how about you go and start such a site? That will be much more productive than posting passive aggressive petulant posts on the internets
Holy shit way to jump of that cliff quickly. It's a single article, the ENTIRE rest of the site is free to use. As for cost it's been discussed over and over what the money will be used for.
Holy shit, have you missed all the discussion about why this is needed? I'm sorry that you will no longer get for free the content that hours of work are being put into on top of their personal jobs.
This is ridiculous, as if the "server costs" are the only thing it takes to keep a high quality website that produces content running.
Ok I have held off on talking about any of this for a while but here it goes...
This may be the most entitled thing I have read in a long time. I'm sorry but a lot of these people have been so spoiled by receiving top rate content for free that now they think that they just deserve it.
Here's the thing. I know my wife and I can't pay to be in the TKP Club right now. I actually asked for the funds for a Hokie Club membership for Christmas and my FIL came through (I mean I couldn't just tell Frank no). Just because I can't afford something doesn't entitle me access to it, even if I received it for free in the past. Will I miss French's reviews (assuming more will be TKPC exclusive in the future)? Of course. They are probably my favorite content on this site. Then again I also miss my mom cooking all my meals for me... but I'm an adult and I had to grow up. I'm sure some time down the road I will be able to afford a membership. Until then I will enjoy the content that I can see and will appreciate every bit of it.
This I agree with, well said
facebook pages are still free
~ HorseOnATreadmill 12/27/2016
haha..I agree with this
but for some reason it made me think of this:
~VPIhokieME
Hah!
For the most part, facebook pages actually cost the owners of the page money to get people to view. I would know, I run a couple myself for non-profits, and to get the word out about money making opportunities, we actually have to pay facebook to ensure our target audience is reached, even for the ones who actually follow our page.
I however really enjoy the TKP community but I will more than likely not join the TKPC as I find the recruiting information more beneficial on the other pay sites. I hope this doesn't rub someone the wrong way.
My thoughts on this issue:
- as a frequent flyer on this site, today was honestly the first day I had ever looked at the terms of membership. That goes to what others have said, that there wasn't enough benefit to join previously.
- that said, with this bring the first article, it would be wise for me to gauge how frequently there will be pay content to determine the value of this membership.
- it's also not the time of year for me to commit. Xmas was expensive! And my TKP addiction wanes until August.
- automatic renewal is a red flag to me. If I joined, I would immediately turn that off for the next year, let it expire and renew on my own terms. If this isn't optimal for TKP, then a benefit (10%?) for auto renewal should be incorporated.
- beyond access, the other benefits don't appeal to me. I don't care who has a key next to their name and I've got plenty of bottle openers and stickers. I know it doesn't amount to much outlay to TKP, but if that is $4 per membership, I would prefer that go to French or reduce the price by $4. You can sell those for more profit individually for those who want them in the store for members only.
- $84 is outside the range where I find value. It's not a matter of income, it's a matter of value. For instance, my Costco membership is $110 and I get 2% back on purchases. My Amazon Prime is $100. TKP doesn't compare to those memberships.
I'm a big fan of the site, love the contributors. But these are my honest thoughts on the terms.
This is largely /s because I understand and can support just about everything you said here.
But I thought the same thing about the bottle opener..... until I got it. That thing's awesome!
Is there anyway that this could be a monthly subscription. I love the content this site offers, but as a recently graduated college student I can't afford the lump sum right now. Although I would be able to budget in a $7/$8 monthly payment
Yes. Put 7 dollars a month away for 12 months, then sign up next year.
David Ramsey's method on How to plan for The Key Play Club membership
Just add "The Key Players Club" and contribute monthly.
Or Just do what I did, wait for that three paycheck month, and join with that little bit of extra monthly cash.
Real Talk, I'm actually going through Dave's steps now...i have baby steps all over the place..lol
No - annual membership only
Thanks for the reply, I never caught that comment. I'll see how much I can put together for joining the club in the future.
I like this website and look forward to being part of it everyday...and I don't mind paying for it. I will be sad if it goes away.
I can't understand the "deleting my account" response. It's ONE article that you can't read. Is that the only reason you came here?
I'd bet you skipped at least ONE film review earlier this season.
Edit: and yes I realize there will be additional articles/content in the future. Still though.
I haven't missed a single article written by French all year!
Well, I'm a graduate student and probably don't have money for it, and my fiance does say that I spend too much time looking at football stuff.... but I finally joined.
You, Joe and TKP, are enablers.
But damn I need me some French film review.
tl;dr I don't want to pay for Q + A sessions or beat reporters.
All right. I've been trying to keep my knee jerk reaction to myself. Let me point out why I don't want to pay for membership into TKP. About 3 years ago, I was reading an Andy Bitter article and he mentioned something about TKP. "What's that?" I asked. I found my way here and looked around. "Wow! This place is great!" I said. There was a healthy forum, some great analyses by French and others, and a great community. There was also a certain pride about it being free - at least that's how it appeared to me. It seemed like "pay site" was a bad set of words.
The crown jewel of TKP are the analyses by French. This is the stuff you really just can't get anywhere else, so it is no surprise that this is the type of content that get's blocked by admin to get the point through (this is the second time, the first time was an "accident"). The other content used to just be some news on recruits, game time threads, and some chatter about all things Hokie. I loved it, so I made an account. It was free, so why not?
Then TKP changed direction. They didn't want to just have film reviews, they wanted to be a full blown sports news website dedicated primarily to VT Football. This included providing the highlights of players and coaches being interviewed, publishing newspaper like articles reporting on the actual games, and doing Q and A sessions with other teams' reporters. Honestly, I don't read this type of content because it's not what I came to TKP for. This content adds very little to the conversations that are already present on TKP, in my opinion. I'm pretty sure this is where the money from the Key Players Club is going to, and because I don't read this content, I don't want to pay for it. I'm sure the writing is top notch, but I just don't care about it.
If the site needs money, just pull the trigger already and put everything behind a pay wall. The blocking of choice articles to "prove the point" is annoying and it hasn't swayed me from my opinion. If you're only going to block French's articles, then it's really a bad deal for me financially to pay into club. $6-8 per article is getting up there with paying for (or renting) academic publications.
So you would rather just not have the site than be "annoyed" by the occasional paid content that you didn't have any interest in anyway?
Is the money going to keeping this site going or is it going to paying for reporters? I don't think membership to this site would change if the reporting went away.
One and the same.
In short, the answer is "yes."
TKP in its current form cannot survive, as Joe and the main contributors are all otherwise fully employed with real jobs. The burden of maintaining this site and producing content is too much. Imagine having a full-time job, a family, friends, and still trying to run the TKP media entity all at once. Most of us would crumble. Joe & Co. do it somehow and it still blows my mind.
Having a full-time employee would free up a lot of time (especially for Joe) and would guarantee top-notch content for all of us. But at present, the amount of time required is too much, such that without financial backing, TKP may cease to exist, as Joe has warned on numerous occasions. No one wants that, but sometimes reality sucks.
So why not scale back on content? It's tough for me to dismiss what I most liked about this site when I first started hanging around here. Am I wrong that being free was a major selling point about TKP a few years ago?
You're not really selling anything if its free. And that's part of the problem.
At the moment, the majority of articles will still be free. Just occasional articles behind a paywall. I actually really like the idea. It also appears to be working - I think TKPC has increased by 10 members since this French's film previous was posted this morning.
Hey look, your content has been scaled back. Everything else is still free. Stop complaining.
So if I join and TKP doesn't get enough members, will it close up shop? Will I get a refund? Will it die a slow death with less and less content like Beamerball before pulling the plug?
Here's what I don't get. If you can afford to give (I know many can't, and that's ok, get your finances in order, then 1, give to the Hokie Club, then 2, give to TKP) why are you holding your donation ransom for some arbitrary thing you want to have exclusive rights to? You already said French's work is worth the donation as it stands right now, so why hold the rest of the site ransom to see that happen? If you're happy with the work that French or whomever else is doing, then show that with some financial support to allow them to continue doing the job they do.
There's a difference between showing support by donating and paying to have exclusive access. The "donate" model is failing so the pay "pay for exclusive content" model is taking its place. I'm not going to donate to a site if I don't support the direction it has taken (i.e. beat reporters). I've donated to TKP in the past, although it was a measly amount, I'll admit it.
It's clear TKPC membership is a value proposition for you, and that's fine. If you don't find value in, little changes for you. Every once-in-a-while you won't be able to read an in-depth article, and that's about it.
The financial support TKP has received pays for content across the board as well as server costs and probably other things I can't think of at the moment.
FWIW, as far as cost, the time it takes French to write a film review and for me to edit and publish it justifies the $84 per year. But it's a free market and I support your decision to object to the price by not paying for it.
For me, I was severely down voted for a comment I made. I probably deserved it, but at the time, I was pissed and was ready to complain to the Supreme Court. I was ready to bail. I calmed down and ate my lunch.
I am a card carrying member and proud to support TKP. Damn, some of the analyses posted on here are really first rate. Some of the articles are thoughtful and some of the comments are insightful and down right entertaining. I purposely come to work early, boot up, pour coffee and read TKP.
For you young grads and underpaid grads, I understand your financial concerns, been there, done that. $89 is a lot of money with the amount of debt you have rolled up. Not that any one cares, but several years ago I went to the ATM and had $225 and no savings for family expenses. It's fucking scary!!!
I think the access policy is good and needed. We have some real talent here.
I hear this. On my second to last day in Blacksburg, after Christmas in December 2005 (after graduating earlier that month), I closed my bank account in Blacksburg and pawned a bunch of stuff to pay off the final bills. Final amount of money in my pocket after buying gas to get to PA? Around $17. And that was with less than $10k in student loans and no family to take care of. The struggle was real and it sounds like it's WAY real-er for some of you.
Luckily I am in better shape now, and being in better shape has allowed me to support the College of Engineering, donate to some local charities I like, tip well the people who cut my hair, and, of course, support TKP. Made a bunch of donations before TKPC was invented and signed up immediately after it was, TKP'er #3.
Let's see how this all shakes out. I hope you all did what I did this year and made all your Amazon purchases using The Key Link in the top right.
As I sit here and read all the complaining about having to pay for some of the content on this site. As of now that has been one article. As mentioned many times above, this discussion has been going on for about a year and if Joe doesn't get the funds to keep the site going IT WILL GO AWAY. Where are you going to complain about not getting the content then? I am generaalizing here but how hard is it to give up one Starbucks coffee a week for an unbeliveable sports site. Why should the 1%'ers have to pay for everybody to read?
Most wouldn't bat an eye if TKP went away. If they cared, they'd join TKPC.
Sadly, you are probably right.
That's funny. People complain about all sorts of things they don't pay for every day.
The reactions on threads like this make it very clear that they care, they just don't want to spend money on it, and in some cases can't afford to.
We can't pretend like the phenomenon of people not wanting to pay for stuff is new. Why do you think illegal streaming and downloading of other peoples hard work is so prevalent?
The reactions here are minuscule compared to the 99 percent or whatever that isn't supporting TKPC.
99.6%, for those who want to be accurate
The low participation rate in TKPC is not necessarily an accurate reflection of who cares. Right now, it's a benefactor model and those who want to give money to see the site continue are doing so. Many people would join if push comes to shove, as it very well will in short order. If the site went 100% paywall, membership would probably go up. Joe is trying to avoid that, going back to the original TKP mission, but it may be unavoidable. It's not because people don't care. It's because people haven't had to come to grips with the financial reality of running this site and producing top-notch content.
Another aspect I've touched on and is worth mentioning again, there are a bunch of TKPers who don't know about TKPC because they swing by to read selective articles and that's it. The folks who participate in the community comprise roughly 1% of the overall readership. The exclusive content notification is a great vehicle to bring awareness for TKPC to those who don't know about it.
my how TKP has grown.
member when every comment had a subject line? i member.
Seriously though. This is my 3rd time reading this comment and I STILL can't stop saying this out loud and laughing
I don't think going full paywall will really work. If we hadn't experienced French's reviews than noone would care that it's roped off now. As another poster mentioned, why pay for content when you don't know if it's any good? On top of that, with all the better known tech sports sites out there, if TKP is just another paywall site, I don't think it can draw the same people in the door as in can as a free site.
Honestly, I think that the occasionally premium content post behind a paywall may push enough people to sign up, but it's always going to be a delicate balance. I imagine a move like this could drive overall site traffic down even as membership goes up and that could be problematic when it comes to reaching new potential donors. You have to get people hooked to convince them that paying for the product is worth it.
I love the idea that the content is free for all, but enough people value it to support it financially (I call this the NPR model), but this clearly isn't working.
It is a tough situation. I don't like going to a site and running into a paywall- and when I do it doesn't cross my mind to join. The content on TKP is good enough that when they started ringing the bell I heard the call and joined.
I can only hope that others appreciate the value as much as I do. Best of luck to us.
I think anybody whining about having to pay is a a real asshole.
Dear assholes, stop whining. Nobody is making you pay $7/month and for the record, you can afford $7/month. If you can't, you shouldn't be spending as much time being an asshole complaining about it. Just think of things that cost $7/month. I hope you all find another site to bitch on, so I don't have to listen to it.
That's a pretty broad brush. I love this place and spend way too much time here. With that being said, I'm not sure I want to fork over $84 to read additional content or see more coverage. I can probably afford it, as at the end of the day it's not a huge amount of money, but if that's the thought then hell I can afford a lot of things. I would think the way to get people to pony up would be to be to show them what they can get by becoming a member, and let that sell itself. The argument that you are just a cheap asshole that complains about spending money is not a good one. If it where, other people would use it.
Money is nice. People want it. People get it by getting others to give it to them in exchange for something. If what you are offering is worth the price, then the transaction works. If not, it doesn't. No need for name calling.
I hope the financial situation works out. The real world sucks. Go Hokies.
..that's where you come in.
I'm not asking anybody to fork over 84 bucks. I'm telling them that they aren't entitled to receiving it because they simply want it. If you don't want to content, don't pay for it. That's fine. I believed the value model has been made clear. But don't sit here and comment on how somebody else should run a website/business because of the perceived unfairness.
I don't know if this adds to the cost of the site and operations, but another golf site that I am on has a very useful and awesome feature. You can hide posts from certain posters. That cuts down on some of the bickering and knee-jerk responses, which limits threads barreling out of control sometimes. Just a thought...
If only there was a way to fund the people who run TKP to ensure we can have someone on hand to develop that kind of functionality...
And Joe has already said such a feature would be a massive undertaking.
We have that. It's the Dim Collapse thread feature.
Looks like membership has jumped by about fifteen since this all happened. That tells me this is the right call.
Some will say that is offset by some of the complaints. But I have a sneaking suspicion that the people complaining the loudest never intended to join in the first place, so there's no loss there.
I do find it interesting to see the gradual decrease of Comment Scores of those who are encouraging TKPC membership in this thread. For having a user base who claims to take so much pride in how we run things here, its interesting to see the Community Guidelines apparently crumble the second people are asked to donate to help the cause.
TKPC membership enrollment is on par with Hokie Club contribution.
It is called capitalism. Been around for more than 200 years. Carry on.
I actually think Joe needs to ask for investors as opposed to memberships. Then all the freebies would go away real quick.
If I invest enough can I get my name on it like a college department?
"The HorseOnATreadmill Key Play" has a nice ring to it, don't you think?
I'm truly stunned by the amount of angst this has caused. Truly, truly stunned.
A few thoughts:
1) Every reader's financial situation is their own financial situation. Let's keep it that way.
2) If you don't see value in a TKPC membership, or if you don't feel inclined to donate for the good of the greater community, that's fine. That's your decision. From time-to-time, you won't have access to content on TKP. Again, your decision. No one should hold that against you.
3) The "scale back on content" argument holds little water for me. Every member of TKP staff contributes because we believe in the site, its readers, and because we want to provide the best possible online destination for Virginia Tech fans. If you don't enjoy segments of TKP's content, don't consume them. That's your prerogative.
But if you're expecting TKP to scale down rather than scale up, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. We're all here to be the best, not to be a niche community for GIF's and Virginia Tech football banter. What differentiates TKP is that we offer both -- a second-to-none online community with top-notch content delivery, all sitting atop a highly optimized software stack created and maintained by one person. Unfortunately, that becomes time-consuming and expensive.
4) I really should get back to work.
I know right?
Actually, "scale back content" is precisely what's happening. If people aren't able to contribute or they don't want to, then their content will be scaled back. Free content was going to get scaled back one way or another, since the site was going to fold up shop, if it couldn't generate a minimum amount of financial support.
I don't mean that to sound heartless. I've certainly been in a position where I couldn't afford $84/yr for sports content, so I empathize for people who can't afford the fee (though there will still be a lot of good free stuff on here for them).
Personally, I'd rather pay the fee than get the garbage that I get on FB as part of their "free" product.
I'm glad you brought this up, because as a Key Play member, I cannot decide which things are funded and which ones aren't. There are some columns I value and some that I generally do not value, but that isn't my choice (nor should it be, as many people on this site value different things than I do).
There is some content, which I would presume costs Key Play actual dollars to produce, that I wouldn't miss at all if it were gone, and occasionally I do find myself reading something and I can't imagine why someone would pay to produce it, much less consume it. I don't communicate this on the boards because there is no benefit to doing so, I just avoid those columns or skip to the discussion section.
For those things that:
a) people will pay for - like 'will hand over physical dollars to consume' or
b) will drive ad revenue through traffic generation when cited on another popular website with a wider reach (Bitter Blog, ESPN, SI, Bleacher Report, etc) or
c) add revenue to TKP via some other mechanism (t-shirts, Amazon link, etc),
all of that is operational investment that should absolutely be funded.
But if there are costs that aren't producing dividends, then scaling back on content could legit be the right decision - growth can lead to bloat instead of value for sure. Since I'm not sure what, if any, money gets spent where, I vote with my dollars to fund whatever Joe decides he wants on the site, because I generally believe that most of the content and discussion is valuable here. Having been a relatively early adopter of the site keeps me invested in it even if I don't agree with 100% of the content.
One great example of community-based value is the work ltrepeter2000 does. I don't watch a ton of roundball but when I see something Hokie related, or catch a game, or have a thought about it, the person whose opinion I seek out when I have a question (which I'm not sure I've ever done), is ltrepeter, and I'm glad he does what he does, thanks dude.
FWIW, I would love to hear your thoughts. As someone with a business degree from Tech, I find monetizing the digital media space very intriguing.
Feel free to hit me up at Joseph.h.coogan (at) gmail (dot) com.
Not every article can be about Time of Possession /s
Maybe not, but you never said every comment couldn't be about it.
Your welcome. Keeps me on my toes to know people enjoy the content and are learning about basketball. (as I dig into another chapter of a book on Jim Boeheim I got for Christmas.) Have a couple Coach K books coming for my birthday a little birdie told me. Always fun to see how these top coaches tick a little.
You should read Fienstein's book on the ACC.
Its on the shelf at home. Its ok once you get past Feinsteins bravado. A writer with an ego equal to the coaches he covered. The basketball book of his I really want to read is A Season on the Brink: A Year with Bob Knight and the Indiana Hoosiers.
My buddy read that one and says that it is his best book. He does have an ego+. I love the way he bitches about some coaches yet he will defend Coach K to the end. I do like Coach K. however he is every bit the winer and then some compared to Dean Smith, whom he called the biggest whiner in the game.
I will give Feinstein credit, he does his work. Another of his book's I want to read is about the year he spent traipsing around AAA baseball. Insight into how much of a step down it is between the Majors and Triple A is really astonishing.
There's a ton of great perspective here. I do want to say it's tough to quantify the value of any given article. Given a hypothetical website with both pay and free content which article is more "valuable"? The one(s) that initially made the reader a regular, or the one they paid in order to read.
From my perspective, the day-to-day reporting is VERY valuable content for TKP. Among other things: A) It's set TKP up for unique features in the offseason (one-on-one interviews with Whit, Fuente, Hokie Club reps, etc...); B) It legitimizes TKP as a media entity (credentials to other non-VT events), C) The quotes and video clips drive social media engagement which in turn grows TKP. (TKP could rip quotes from Bitter, Barber, etc but that's scummy.)
The same could be said about any of the content TKP publishes. For example, "Foe"rensics crushes it on Reddit and could be how a casual Hokie who didn't know TKP existed eventually stumbles upon French's film review.
I think that 247 and TSL are the two premium sites that TKP is trying to compete with this correct? IMO, i think the recruiting content HAS to improve. I know 247 has their rankings and everything but I wish there was a guru like TCB or someone to that effect that could run a column. Also, I think there is feeling of this site being a little cliquish at times. As someone who reads all 3 MAJOR message boards for VT sports. (247, TSL, and TKP), I think you have a lot of people that may be a little hesitant to join in the conversation because they are afraid of being attacked if they say anything negative. This is just my opinion just from reading the site when comparing the other two. Sidenote: TSL has some of this as well, but it's mostly relegated to the Lounge.
TKP isn't trying to be either on of those sites. IMO, thank God for that.
IMO, while they are not trying to be that site, they are trying to be a "one-stop shop" for all things hokie. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Does HokieHaven, of the Rivals network, come into play at all?
No one really talks about rivals anymore.
Rivals pumps out garbage. I still have 247 and TSL accounts but Watkins is starting to lose my interest and will look to getting rid of 247.
Forgive me, but do we not see the irony here? It's so, so rich.
Please explain.
The single main reason the funds are required is to hire and bring on someone to provide the content you're demanding, among other site improvements.
When I hear full time reporter, I'm thinking of someone like Alex or Joey full time. I'm talking about someone dialed in at merryman with the coaching Staff like CZY or TCB. Paying for a full year would bring this information? This is a serious question.
Actually I agree that's a legit question. If we get Chip Brown formerly of OrangeBloods.com or Dan Wetzel from Yahoo! Sports then yeah pay the thing, but I'm not sure what a full time reporter would produce that I don't already get from Bitter/Wood/etc and an incognito window.
It would help, though its still going to be difficult to secure a true insider while still keeping said insider secret. Part of the reason people like CZY or TCB go about it on their own is that the less people who know who they are, the better. Its why TCB eventually broke away from TSL, and part of the reason its been difficult to keep them active on sites like 247. The more they share, the better the odds someone will find out who they are, and ensure the source gets silenced. The more sites who employ them, the better the odds someone will find out and ensure they get silenced. Things like this are generally more organic in the way they grow, but having an ultra-popular website with an active userbase with a paywall behind which these kinds of sources can hide does help.
Part of the reason the funds are needed is to have the role in place of someone who could potentially be the confidant between Joe and the source him/herself, and allow that person to go out and try to secure others. We also need someone who can help take some of the day to day stresses off Joe and others. so that they can focus on developing some of the more interesting site improvements that have been considered for a while.
Thank you for the explanation. TCB still lurks on 247 and will pop up from to time to time. I see that we have Hokie20 and Beamer's Auto Garage chiming in more and I think thats great with regards to recruiting. Look forward to more of it. I dont really go to 24/7 like that anymore because everything seems like it's for pay. I will subscribe eventually, but not right now.
Evan Watkins won't want to hear this but all of the insider info from CZY and others ends up on this board. It may not be as quick but it gets leaked here. I read 247 and have a good buddy who is very connected into this recruiting thing. All of the info is here. Not immediately but it is here soon enough. It is obviously copied from 247 or TSL and posted here. I probably have contributed to that myself by mistake but who really cares? There is no need for a "guru" at TKP. Just read the forum and you will learn all that is posted on other sites.
This is a question for Joe, but rest assured TKP's first full-time employee will not be me. Joe can find (and currently has) far more talented writers than myself.
I work in a completely different industry (most of us do, in fact.)
You don't think a full time reporter can get sources? I know for a fact TKP and Joe in particular has sources already.
Never said a full time reporter doesn't have sources, but I'm talking about when it comes to recruiting. If we're talking about sources for a full time reporter, we have sources about "whats really going on with Shai McKenzie" or "Why did Dwayne Lawson really leave?" As has been stated earlier in this thread, typically a recruiting source is someone that is close the coaching staff and their anonymity is very important.
#ALLTHESAUCES
I view TKP like a local business. Even though you may not see the dollar amount you are paying worth it at points (not speaking about myself, I think it's worth it) local business is always important. Especially with what TKP provides me.
This is a really good analogy I think,
In a way, I agree. I do feel a personal connection to TKP like I would a local business. That's why there was a $ by my name for a couple years in a row.
I want to support TKP. At the same time, I have zero interest in paying for a full time employee. Andy Bitter is an amazing beat writer. Really no need to replicate his work, as far as I can see. I don't understand, or really care about, the extra value this full time person is supposed to bring.
I care about French's analysis, Halfwits and Wagers, Foerensics, By The Advanced Numbers, and the community. These are the unique features that keep me coming back.
I'd be more than willing to pay $30 to keep those things going. I just really don't want to pay $84 to expand features I'm not interested in. (P.S. In general I would be willing to bet that the site would earn more total revenue at a $30 price point.)
Joe still accepts donations outside of TKPC membership. I'm sure he'll gladly accept your $30.
Here's the thing. More than anything, the funds are needed to bring in a full time employee to keep TKP's lights on. Joe has stated multiple times that between family and work he's stretched too thin to devote the time and energy to this website that is needed to continue the level of quality we have grown accustomed to. Between day to day operational dealings with website bugs, editing the columns you're referencing, and assisting with the moderation of us minions, they need to bring on a full time employee to take those pressures off him.
So... yeah, your funds will actually go directly towards what you want. If we can't bring in a full timer, you're likely going to see those articles scale back a bit, not because the authors will stop producing quality work, but because TKP won't have the resourcing to provide the kind of editorial backing they need to ensure their quality.
I once heard from a very successful business man that if you want to run a legit business, then you have to go all in. I did that myself a little over a year and a half ago (I'm am entrepreneur and am constantly looking for opportunities). I can't imagine trying to run a business and work a full time job, because you aren't doing your best at either.
If this were my site, it would be time to determine if this is a hobby business or a legit business. If the latter, then quitting my day job to pursue growing this one would be the route to take. That way it's a full time hustle. Then at some point the business grows organically and supports hiring additional employees.
Anyway, just my take.
Whoa. Just woke up (don't judge) and am hit with a barrage of really unthankful people.
I'm shocked that this tiny little push for more funding for an awesome website is met with such blowback. $84 really isn't a huge amount in the long run.
While I wish I was able to join at this time, I'm unable to do so. However this site does bring some things that can't be found else where. French's film previews and reviews are pretty top notch! Would love to see what he has written for this bowl game, but that just gives me more incentive to save up some money so I can join next year. IMO those bitching about not getting something for free, need to understand not everything in life is free! Sometimes if you want the candy you have to pony up and buy the candy!
Well, the reaction in here indicates that Joe took a step in the right direction.
Blocking the entire post and all comments was a good call. Please don't partially block a post or comments.
Next will be finding the correct balance, how frequently do you block posts? Do you block one weekly and rotate between contributors?
Side Note: I viewed my membership as a donation to this site. It takes a lot of time and effort to write/edit articles, edit code, edit photos, and moderate the comments. I'm sure it also takes money for server space. Perhaps if some of you viewed it as a donation to help those that sacrifice their time for your enjoyment and not a product/sale, it might make it easier to justify the money.
Absolutely... Lets take a look at the numbers.... 15 new members today after French's column was locked down to TKPC members. 16 joined on the day Joe accidentally locked it down back in November. In 2 days we've seen a 10% increase in current membership based on nothing more than flipping a switch to prevent content from being viewed by people who haven't joined TKPC after getting about 350 over the previous 10 months.
Sometimes you have to shake the tree to get the fruit
Your side note has been a heavy point of contention. I've seen people take a wide array of stances towards it. But for the record, I also view it as a donation for the sacrificed time and effort and money.
Joe, do your thing. You've done a good job producing good content and making an excellent user interface. I feel like you bend over backwards to make everyone happy and still keep things running but in the end, some people just roll up in a lambo plastered with FSU logos anyway.
My problem with becoming a member of TKPC is the recurring deduction from my credit card. I don't do that; and I especially would not want one that only happens once a year on a random date. No way I will keep track of that. I have contributed and was thinking of making my contribution $84 this year; but if that does not put me in the TKPC, I will probably give less since I won't be getting the premium content.
You can email Joe to get the reoccurring payment removed.
Relevant: http://www.thekeyplay.com/comment/438527#comment-438527
So Joe's software keeps track of it for you, and tells you many times over that it's coming up, and makes it easy to cancel if you want.
I guess I am just a grumpy old man(class of 69); so I got the old part. And lots of people tell me I'm grumpy. But, I am not doing an automatic deduction from my credit card. I'll send a check and Joe can send me a renewal notice next year; but no auto deduct.
Seems like some people on *both* sides of the argument here would benefit from a night off. The sun will rise tomorrow, everyone.
I am fortunate in that the $84 membership fee does not represent a financial hardship. However, just because I can afford something doesn't mean I will choose to throw money at it.
So why did I choose to join TKPC? Many reasons, but here are the big three.
1. TKP has helped me through some rough times. As in recovering from major surgery, not knowing how much my quality of life (and ability to work) would be impacted. During that time, it was vital to the recovery process that I continue to learn new things, and to stay engaged with the world beyond my living room. TKP Community helped me do both, and for that, I am forever grateful.
2. TKPC is a way for me to support my fellow alumni and invest in a small business that I believe in. It may not seem like much, but I am happy to see $84 of my discretionary funds go to a full-time beat writer, and the long-term sustainability of this site. It is a way for me to feel a part of something larger that myself. (Which is very important, boys and girls, especially as we get older.)
3. A while back, a member of our military posted his appreciation for TKP, while he/she was deployed overseas. Sometimes even I feel lonely for all things Hokie, and heck, I'm just two states away. I cannot imagine the value TKP represents for someone like this soldier, not to mention our civilian Hokies in far-flung places. Realizing that TKP in its current state was unsustainable, that soldier's comment was the motivation I needed to grab the credit card and actually sign up.
So that's my two cents' worth. Thanks for listening. Go Hokies!
Prayers that your recovery from surgery is/will be complete soon and full!
Ok - i'm in...(as if it wasn't a foregone eventuality...) Palmetto Gal made some wonderfully insightful reasons why she (and therefore I) should take the leap...to mirror her three points:
1. TKP has helped me through some rough times.
Yeah, i think most of the regulars here know all about how that applies to me.....
2. TKPC is a way for me to support my fellow alumni and invest in a small business that I believe in.
I'll only add to this that my contribution might save what we have here for students and recent grads, etc, who can't swing the $84 a year right now. I'm 48 and although I'm not rich by any means, for me, 84 bucks a year dosen't hurt, and I certainly waste way more than that on superfluous shit that i can always reign in....plus my wife gave me the thumbs up to go ahead and be a contributor - she loves the hokies (out of her love for me), but i think i just talked about it enough for her to finally say 'whatever honey' to ultimately shut me up.
3. A while back, a member of our military posted his appreciation for TKP...
This resonates with my whole discourse on #2, but squared, then cubed. My wife, I, my daughter, and our son, when he was still with us, go every year to stuff stockings to ship to the Marines deployed overseas before Christmas. The idea that a small effort (for me) on my part could give some joy and escape to someone serving overseas is beyond measure.
I'll add my own #4........
Joe, French, VTGM, Joey Coogan, Ryan, (along with many spouses, girlfiends, (boyfriends?), their children, family, etc who get neglected because of their time and effort to keep this going) deserve to see their hard work succeed within a business model that takes the best approach they can think of to achieve a happy balance for everyone. I must say, I'm amazed that Joe has made it this far maintaining this whole deal without his wife heading for the hills (i assume she didn't)......
In addition, i'd like to say to all of my TKP friends that can't swing the TKPC cost, I completely get it......I'm not gonna go down the road of 'why cant you' or 'why don't you'....in the long run, I hope my contribution helps keep this glorious thing alive for both me, and you. If you can do something to support this at some point the down road, all the better....
To all my TKP brethren -
Merry (late) Christmas,
Happy (current) Hanukkah,
....and best wishes for a happy new year
EDIT: OK, , now I'm pissed.....i give my $84 and go back to read French's article that i couldn't before, and I'm greeted with the FIRST paragraph headline:
Virginia Tech Must Will Face a Fierce Power Attack
My sponsorship should save me from such syntax atrocities .......
duh.../s.....love ya french......
Also, to add to everything i just said above, I really hope that however this shakes out, we don't wind up with the entire community devolving into some kind of class warfare thing......
TL; DR most of the comments or the other threads in the past about it.
My thoughts....no problem with TKP asking people to pay for content. $80-$84 is a decent amount in one month. I'm sure it's been addressed but why isn't there a monthly rate that people could sign on for. $7 a month recurring donation for certain content. A lot of people can't swing or don't feel like putting $80 something up but could probably do $7 a month or something like that.
There should be some symbol like the key or just listed as TKPC besides the articles title to let people know it's restricted. Clicking on French's article to only see it come up was a. It frustrating at first, only cause I didn't realize it was coming.
Making random articles restricted seems off and simply just bad business to me. So as of now we will just have to click on articles to see if they are pay or not?? Why not just say say "going forward these articles are going to be restricted". I say either make people pay or don't, but don't be like the guy in the All-State commercial with the articles.
Again if all that has already been addressed fine but just my thoughts. I'd like to join TKPC just isn't a priority at the moment. Perhaps after taxes come back. Not upset about asking for money or requiring people to pay would just rather have a thread that sticks at the top that says "hey we are now a pay site for these articles." Just a bit amateur the way it was handled IMO. But other than that love the site and the community.
The point is for you to click on the article and be notified about the key players club. Adding an icon so that you can intentionally avoid clicking and receiving said notification would defeat the purpose.
I hope Joe never provides any hint. Nobody but Joe and his selected few should know if an article is going to be restricted or not.
Well that's just irritating. People know about the key players club. Have a thread stick at the top talking about it. Having me click only to be denied doesn't sway me to get out my cc and sign up.
Stores don't say "you'll just have to come by to see if we are open" so only people who are actually going to buy something come in. It's just dumb. Either make us pay for stuff or don't. Everyone is a big kid here and can make decisions that they need to if TKP became a pay site for certain content.
Lets be honest here. Joe has donated his time and resources to this site for the better part of 6 years. 6 years he's spent time coming up with this site when he could have been doing something else, like spending time with his family or working on his full time job. So a year ago, 5 years into the existence of this site, he comes to the realization that he needs financial help to continue allowing TKP to be the site that he wants it to be and what the user base expects it to be, so he sets a funding goal that every single metric he ran showed that he would be able to blitz by quickly. 10 months into this process, not only have we failed him by only funding it at about 35% (as of the implementation of the code to make articles TKPC only in November) but the numbers of unique visitors per day show that roughly 0.4% of all users on this site are actually financially contributing to the success of this site, with a whopping 99.6% of us purely consuming without supporting.
What else do you want? They've tried the playing it nice way. They've tried patiently asking for donations. It didn't work. Not only did it not work, but it was an unmitigated disaster. The numbers show there are simply too many (and my apologies for lack of a better word here) freeloaders who are only here to consume without giving anything back. So now we come to the point where we have to get forceful, and play the necessary games to keep this site viable for the future. Will that rub people the wrong way and chase some away, sure, but then again, we had our opportunity to avoid this and only 0.4% of this community actually stepped up to the plate.
My main point is that they should just make the decision to make some of the content restricted to those that pay permanently. I'm grateful for all the work that they have put into the site and it's awesome that it's come to a point where they see they need to pay someone, that means it's growing and what they are providing is good.
However again jerking me around with a restricted article here or there that I only find out about by clicking on it after I read the same article a week ago for free to try and "convince" me to join is just bush league. Nobody runs a business like that. Just make the decision to make certain content restricted from here on out. That's what I'm advocating. Either sh!t or get off the pot. My recommendation to them would be that. Just make certain content from here on out restricted. There's no need to give me a sob story and tell me how I'm a freeloader. Just say "hey we need to pay someone to continue with all the great stuff you guys love so from here on out these routine articles are going to be restricted." Simple, done. You'll get some people to sign up. Some won't.
And here's the problem with that (as we have seen throughout the online industry)
If you make it clear that x is always going to be behind a paywall, it incentivizes people to go elsewhere to get information on x, or it incentivizes them to learn to live without it. If you strategically select a few articles here and there over time that you know people will want, that they can still get most of the time, they will feel left out, and will feel like they need to contribute to stay in the loop. You make all of French's articles behind a paywall, then new users won't know what they're missing out on, and you'll barely see the needle move. But you allow them to see it most of the year, and then paywall the big games, like the Belk Bowl lead-in, or the lead in to the Clemson game next year, and users will trip over themselves joining, because they'll feel like they're missing out on vital TKP material.
Put it this way, TSL has essentially gone the route where everything is behind a paywall. Do I miss it? No, mainly because I never really looked into that site to begin with because I knew everything was behind a paywall. Why would I even try to learn that site if I knew I had to pay just to get my foot in the door? They've had massive problems trying to grow their userbase, and I'm sure this is playing a big part of it. TKP has the opposite problem. Joe has a massive userbase, but the problem is that he can't monetize it, and he's trying to force the issue.
Can it be construed as a dick move? Perhaps, but such is life. We've had 10 months of patiently asking people to contribute and 99.6% ignored it. I can't really fault the thinking in going this way. I know we'll eventually have some kind of symbol to display when a post is locked, but I kinda hope against it. People don't know what they're missing until they're actively prevented from seeing it when they want it. Its a psychological forcing of the issue.
I had a conversation with someone who has been struggling with things like this for a while and he suggested that there actually should be a well-defined set of things that are behind a paywall. I didn't delve into why they thought so, but I will. I can't say I have an opinion either way, but the #sauce has enough experience that they're worthy of confidence.
This is where I have an issue. The first argument from TKPC members was: what value/incentive do I get for paying $84? A key chain and you are supporting the site. Cool - but does that really sway readers much? The answer eventually was no - we should provide some content to TKPC exclusively. Again, cool.
But now you are saying the people who pay $84 aren't going to know what is exclusive or not? So what if I only value French articles enough to pay $84? But if the next 4 French articles in our 2017 season are free, then I get pissed off and don't want to be a member anymore?
I'm not advocating for Joe to change anything, it's his site and his prerogative. If he wants to get a full-time writer, cool with me. If he wants to use the $84 to support server fees, cool with me.
But just like when you buy a warranty package on a product, you know what that warranty is good for. For TKP, the "warranty" cost is your membership. When you decide to change what that membership is good for, try to make it pretty straight forward for the people who are on the fence. Am I getting 1 French article exclusive, and then the rest go back to free? Or will I just find out every time I go to the site? Does $84 justify that ambiguity?
For some of the people on this site, they probably forked over $84 on day one and are furious that anyone wouldn't do the same. For others, they want to "delete" their accounts and have a temper tantrum over one article.
For the rest of us who may be considering $84, it would be awesome to know ahead of time - what can I get out of this vs. reading other sites or maybe cutting back on Hokie stuff so I can focus on my real job.
I'm not posting this at anyone in particular, just felt both sides of this issue are losing site of the fact that the majority of people who come here aren't die hard TKPers or the opposite (Hoos fans).
Think of it this way (because Joe has laid this out before): Currently, TKP provides you at least one article per day (on average) during the week - reports, features, recurring columns, etc. Joe & Co. do this in their available time and it is demanding. The current output and trajectory are unsustainable without a full-time employee to handle it. So your $84 is going to prevent one of three things happening:
1. Dramatically reduced content across the board
2. TKP going away entirely
3. TKP becoming completely paywalled
If you value what TKP does, contribute $84 to keep it going. Those of us who jumped on board early hoped that enough people would step up to the plate without having to wall off anything. The current restriction of occasional articles is to incentivize people to contribute. Many people have viewed their $84 as transactional ("what am I getting for my money?") and rather than seeing the big picture of keeping TKP online, they're focusing on some specific benefit. So here's your taste of that.
So a TKPC membership at this point (hell, always) has not been about necessarily getting a specific type of content, or sporadic access to other stuff, but it's about keeping the lights on, keeping this site and community going the way it's been. Do you like having something Hokie-related to read each day? Pony up. Do you like laughing and discussing a wide range of topics with one hell of an awesome community? Open the wallet.
Maybe this is just me, but I feel like I'm getting contradictions left and right here.
TKP was touted as the free site - shame on everyone else who charges for content. But now we have to charge to pay for things (again, like I said above, I don't personally have an issue with charging people).
Next, asking for donations to keep the site running, but now you've moved to a membership program.
Ok, so now you've convinced me, I'm interested in this membership to TKPC where I get some cool stuff, I now get exclusive content, but what you just said above is: it's not actually a membership. It's just disguised as that. It's really just me donating to the website.
Once again, I don't have an issue with charging people, but I've read comments galore above about it being a membership which people who have already paid $84 saying they wanted some kind of reward (exclusive content). But now I'm reading that it's just a donation because not enough people are giving their $84 so we restricted a single article. So were the TKPC members misled about what their membership actually was? Was the exclusive content idea a rouse to get membership, but in reality it has no framework?
To me, if you are just disguising donations by trying to restrict something here and there, you are just plugging a hole in the sinking ship. I'm not saying this is happening - I have enough financials to review in my own job to be able to calculate the solvency of TKP. As a casual reader, that's just the writing on the wall to me.
My thoughts are this: you tried to create a program to incentivize people to fork over $84. Call it a donation/membership/exclusive club - doesn't matter. But at the end of the day, the idea didn't pan out as calculated. This happens all the time.
Instead of just restricting an article and then yelling when people comment against that move, just be transparent. Hey this didn't work, so we want to take the next step which means some things should be exclusive. Here they are: x, y, z.
Best part - as the owner/moderator, whatever - you get to pick what you think will help recover the balance on your TKPC program. If that doesn't work, you go back to the drawing board and re-evaluate.
But just saying, "Well screw you guys this is restricted now," only gets some people to pay. Sure you are excited about the 16 people who signed up today, but are you going to keep getting 16 more each day? Or are you going to make more pages exclusive? Anyone who went through Pamplin knows about diminishing returns.
If so, why not just lay it all out on the table now so your readers can say - you know what, I'm about to fork over $84 because I know in the future I'm getting access to all of this great content that I know won't be available if I don't pay. I'm not concerned about the site closing - I don't have control over that. I just want to know if the $84 is worth my investment.
As I said above, I'm not pointing a finger at VTGuitarMan or anyone. I'm just voicing what I've formulated are some opinions by the very people you are trying to convince to pay.
You've got 3 groups: the devoted followers who already got a membership, those who absolutely don't care to donate/don't have the means, and then everyone else in the middle. The last group is your target.
The key thing I would be asking those people is - what would it take for you to join? What I'm sensing from responses is, what is the value? And I think the value would be some transparency on what exclusive content you get.
We went 10 months and only got about 350 members of TKPC doing what they were doing before. It wasn't working, and something had to be done. And they've been incredibly vocal and straightforward throughout this process about what was happening and what they were thinking. At a certain point, there's only so much they can do before the onus is on us to make sure we're up to speed on the goings on of this place to not be surprised when the changes come. Especially when they're actively warning us about them in the Meta posts and threads directed at us all.
As for diminishing returns, that's a very simplistic approach to this. What they're going to do is restrict access to the content that is most in demand at the specific times where it would be most in demand. Like the breakdown of Arkansas before the bowl game, or the breakdown of Clemson before that game next year, or possibly the FoeRensics leading up to the WVU game next year. The average user will still get to see these posts and threads the majority of the time, but if you want access to what would likely be the most valuable of that over the course of the year, time to pay up.
I appreciate the response, and I'm not trying to single you out, but I feel like that is the only response I've seen from people who are defending the new exclusive content decision.
I've been a member for ~2 years. My time spent on this site has increased as I've gotten more time to read, and I've regained some of my passion for Hokie sports since I graduated in 2012. I would have to think there are a ton of people on this site who would say the exact same thing. I've known about TKPC since it rolled out. I've followed the changes and read all the comments (both good and bad).
Point being, I am one of the many people (I hope) who are strongly considering forking over $84 today to help keep this website going.
But today I'm seeing a pattern of the very people who manage or comment frequently saying "pony up" and "pay up." If you were a sales man trying to sell me something with that lingo, I'd tell you to pound sand.
If that is the sales line, this isn't going to work. In 2 months, you are still going to have the same issue you had 2 days ago, and you will be onto the next way to figure out how to fund the site.
I'm not saying I know the answer, I just think if we had some transparency into more about the TKPC, it would go a long way. Hell, I will donate my $84 today if some of that can be detailed to me.
I concur.
I'm not sure what your looking for? Where the money will be spent? Why it's needed? Something else? All those have been asked and answered.
I think this is part of the problem, or at least hesitancy, of why more people aren't joining/won't join. The same 4-5 posters are constantly trying to win the discussion. What we need to hear are the views and insights of the many, many casual readers and non-posters. Not sure some feel free to post in fear of having their views torn to shreds. Would like to hear from the less vocal side.
Hi. I am a casual reader of this site. I support the TKPC because I look at this site as a local business. It may not be the only location to buy bread (for example) but when you buy it here, you are supporting something that you believe in. I enjoy the posts here and I am by no means the most sports savvy individual, BUT I know that if it were to disappear, a part of my Hokie heart would disappear as well.
I appreciate your efforts Alum. Unfortunately, you are just repeating the same information that you've put out there numerous times already in an attempt to address his concerns. It appears that he isn't looking for an answer his peers have the ability to provide, he wants the owner of the site to provide additional information and directly answer his specific question.
From my light skimming, it appears that he wants a detailed itemized list of the benefits he will directly receive for donating $84 to TKPC. To my knowledge, Joe hasn't provided such a list. No matter how much you try to explain your viewpoint, he won't accept it. With that said, I sincerely do hope everyone finds a way to justify the money in their own mind. I know everyone who is already a member and those who want to continue engaging with this site will be extremely grateful.
I second that. I've read all of your comments Alum - I appreciate your passion for VT and support for this site. While I don't comment as much, I share some of that same passion and support.
MEchase - I would say that's fair. Really just the people who make the content decisions and whomever triggers exclusive content vs. normal content.
Edit: replied before you had updated your comment. Revised below:
I'm not asking for "on this date we will do this", but if you are transparent in saying French articles will be behind a paywall, that would sway tons of people on this site immediately. Just read the comments on each of his articles to see how much people enjoy those.
But right now, I'm just seeing his last article being being a paywall as punishment for not enough TKPC members. So what does that solve? That's what I was getting at in my previous comments.
If you provide some more detail on the process and decision making moving forward, aka solution based vs. punishment based, I think you will see more membership.
So Joe, the owner of the site?
Yeah, sorry for updating my comment. Even with the preview, I still sometimes hit the post button and then decide that I want to change something. My bad.
But I'm not sure how much I can add that hasn't already been said:
-Joe wants to create a place for VT Football fans and starts thekeyplay.com
-People come on, write, and post articles because they too have a love for hokie football.
-So, here is Joe writing the code for this site and paying for servers and such. There is also these awesome people who have volunteered to write amazing, in depth articles. Joe procures a media pass to provide access to practices, games, interviews, etc for these awesome writers.
-The writers write articles, so Joe acts as the editor. Here is a man wearing many hats all so that we, the hokie fans, can have access to great information, insight, and hold conversations in an inviting and friendly environment.
-All is great, except that providing this place for us, the hokie fans, is taking away from Joe's family...specifically his wife and kids. The passion isn't there anymore. He started this great place as a hobby at a personal expense and feels he needs to hire a full-time employee to handle the day-to-day business.
-Joe creates the key players club, hoping that 1% of the 100,000 unique visitors will donate $84 so that he can hire someone to unload this burden....not to make money or go on vacations. I've seen nothing that indicates any of this is so that he can make a profit.
-Well, look in the top right corner and see how many people wanted to help Joe unload some of this burden. Simply asking people who consume their hard work to support their efforts hasn't worked. In response, Joe has taken it a small step further and blocked a single article.
-Here we are.
I don't know Joe and I'm fairly certain I've never met a single person on this site. All of this is just what I've seen over the past few years. In my opinion, you aren't donating money so that Joe can profit. You aren't buying an item. You aren't blindly giving money to some entity who could be raking in millions. You know EXACTLY how much money is going to the website. Joe has been absolutely transparent. I really don't think there is too much more information out there. If I told you that without your $84 TKP would shut down tomorrow, would you donate your money or let it die?
Edit: I'm not so good at proof reading, even with a preview window. Also, I like commas a lot and I refuse to fix the over abundance of them.
I'm not sure what has happened that made you take this as a punishment? It's a fund raising effort, plain and simple.
Oh yeah, I know... But its not like Joe hasn't publicly stated numerous times in Meta threads what the funding goes towards. The information is out there, my suggestion for those needing it would be to go find it.
And really, an itemized list for what the funds would go to on a website that the owners have been donating their time and energy to upkeep. Sheesh, I can only imagine how frustrated this whole thing has to make Joe right now, to be a year into this process, a year into being open and honest with what TKPC is and what it is about and where the money goes, and to be constantly chastised for daring to ask for money or not asking for it in the right way or not providing a good enough list of places where the funds will go or not putting the funds into the exact place people want them to... It has to get old eventually. I know if I was him, I'd probably close up shop based on the incessant bickering that this has caused. Ain't worth it anymore.
I don't mean that as a slight to anyone in particular, but I just feel bad for him lately. Its becoming clear the joy he used to take in this site is gone, and he views this as more of a chore than a side pleasure. And to be met with the kind of blowback that we've seen here and in previous attempts to raise money to help himself out... I don't know how or why he still does it anymore. I'm glad he does, but it can't be fun.
I'm not sure where it got to this... I apologize if I wasn't clear. I thought I had detailed that in my first comment.
I'm not asking for an itemized list of what the $84 goes to in regards to keeping the site going. If Joe wants to have everyone's $84 dues go exclusively to a full-time writer - cool with me. If that all goes to keeping servers up - cool with me. I trust the owners and moderators can make decisions with the membership dues that will keep the site as awesome as it is and hopefully make it even better moving forward.
My point was, TKPC was rolled out and provided incentives for people to join. Then this new paywall article was the result of a bunch of members wanting something in return for their $84 investment.
What I'm trying to get to is, I am interested in the $84 investment, but I would like to know what in the future this gets me. A lot of the responses were it could be this article or that article. My defense was that I think a lot of people, such as myself, are in the opinion that by having a framework for the articles (by author or type) behind the paywall, you are being more transparent towards the people on the fence about joining.
Yeah, I didn't mean it to come across as criticizing you in particular, more of this thread as a whole. To be this far into the process of trying to get some funds to help yourself out on something where the joy is already gone has to just plain suck.
As for what TKPC is about, this has been his reply for a while:
And this is his original comment when the press to get TKPC going was first announced:
I know I can't answer this as well as Joe can, but I hope this helps. Its been a pretty consistent message all along. That said, the decision to start having TKPC exclusive articles came not because he wanted it, but because the TKP membership kind of asked for it to be a reason to join. He was honest that he never wanted this, but it became clear based on the responses he had to the last time this came up that it was the route to go.
Thanks for sharing alum.
To your last paragraph, that is the boat I am in. The first year, I occasionally read, I never commented, etc. TKPC rolled out right around the time I started to comment more, read more, etc. I had little to no incentive at the beginning to join, but as this season as gone on, my appreciation for the site has grown.
In reading that the majority of people in TKPC want exclusive content - I say great. You are asking the people who have paid what makes them excited to be a member. So as someone who is now really interested in joining and thus supporting the site, I'm just interesting in knowing more about what exclusive content I can get. Where I was pushing back on is developing a transparent framework for what that content is. In my opinion, if you are very straight forward about which types of articles are behind a paywall, you give people the option ahead of time to pull the trigger. As an example, if all French articles are behind a paywall, there is no ambiguity.
I understand this would come from the decision makers. My original comment was geared towards providing what I thought was the voice of a ton of readers who are asking the same thing.
Looking at it another way, what would it take to make you pull the trigger on this $84 expense? What would you need to get in the future to make it a justified expense?
I can tell you right now that you won't ever get an itemized list of which articles will be TKPC exclusive, because Joe is going more Wikipedia than 247 in his business model. He's going to use exclusive TKPC access to strategically advertise the simple fact that without financial support, TKPC goes away.
If you need a concrete explanation of what you get in the future for your $84, the only valid response is, you get The Key Play. Either this site is worth financially supporting to you, or it isn't. A full paywall system is the last resort for TKP, because Joe doesn't believe in that model. It's not the site he wants to run. And honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if he let TKP die before going that route. So there can't be a delineation of what perks you get, beyond the fact that you won't have to deal with hitting a dead end and a plug for membership unexpectedly. You'll get full, unfettered use of the site with no surprises.
This is the situation: not everyone will contribute financially to TKP, but if no one does, TKP goes away. Is it worth $84 to prevent that from happening?
Sadly, not necessarily.
For $84 I get almost six months play time in WoW. Six months of playing the game how I want, with or without my friends, so long as "how I want" doesn't violate Blizzard's terms of service.
For $84, I get the Overwatch Collector's Edition, which includes (among a list of other things) a pretty cool statue, a soundtrack, a source book, and a handful of skins exclusive to the CE.
For $84 I can get a ticket to see VT play in Lane and still have $34 for refreshments and souvenirs.
What do all three of those have in common? I know what I'm personally getting for that $84. The only things I know I'm getting with $84 here are:
* a key chain I don't really want or need
* a bottle opener? I know I don't need
* keeping the site running
* randomly having content be exclusive without prior knowledge of what content or how frequently, and then that content only being exclusive "for a little while".
I'm sorry, but $84 for a site I mostly troll the comments section for and only sometimes read By the (Advanced) Numbers, GIFTORY and post-game reviews by French aren't really worth it for me. Especially since I don't know what else I personally get for the $84.
Do I want the site to go down? Not really, but I can't and don't see the value in my $84 given what little I use the site for and how much of that I can get elsewhere... other than the comments section. Dear Lord, if you value your sanity and faith in humanity, don't read the comment sections anywhere else o.o;;;
Edited to correct an omission in a sentence.
And that's why I ask, is the site worth supporting financially. A lot of people assume that I'm implying it is. (And a lot of people who ask that question are also implying that it is.) For a lot of people, the answer is going to be no. And there is nothing wrong with that.
To me, it's worth the pricetag because 1) there simply is no substitute for French's analysis, and 2) there is no other VT site that is as football savvy as TKP. Beyond whatever sense of community has been built here, I think the content is worth paying for. I've heard people say they can get their VT news from other sites, but I've been a member of those other sites, and none of them ever changed the way I watched football. The analysis here has. To me, that's worth my money. For lots of people, it isn't.
If you don't feel TKP is worth your money, you aren't wrong. I think that's getting lost in the conversation. But I also think there are lots of people out there who do think it's worth paying for, but won't do it until they're properly incentivized. That's the target market, not the people who have already decided it's not worth paying for.
No, I totally understand that, and for what it's worth I'm more "I could be persuaded, assuming I could fit the fee into my budget, but right now I don't see the value."
I'll admit I was caught off-guard when I clicked on the article and found I had to join to read it, especially since it's the first time I recall clicking on a film preview thread, but I also just went on with my life and went to reading what I could. But, ultimately, isn't that what we're all having to decide for ourselves:
* is the value worth it for me currently?
* if might it be in the future?
* if yes to either, can I afford it now or when that time comes?
I hear you. I don't get why he's doing it either. This is what I told him last week:
Clicky
Eh. 393 members * $84 apiece = $33k, hopefully renewable. Not exactly chump change.
I, for one, don't think a full time beat reporter is within reach, nor do I think a full time beat reporter would add a ton to the site. As far as I've heard, that's the way this money is planned to be spent.
But I do think that payments to Joe as well as part-time journalists, authors, marketers, software engineers, and/or purchases of third party products/services would take a ton of work off of Joe's plate, speed the improvements he's discussed in the past, and create a sustainable TKP model for what exists here now and make it worth keeping around. It might be able to alleviate some of the funding issues, enable Joe to enjoy his creation a bit more, and generate a little revenue for both him and the staff while other funding mechanisms are developed and deployed.
Having said all that, we're at 40% of the goal with what has been done so far and I don't think a donation model nor a paid model is going to realistically generate a renewable $84k per year, and if that is supposed to go towards a full time writer, then I think it may be worth reevaluating what can be done with the amount of money that does come in. While it might not grow the staff in the way it was originally intended, I think there is something that can be done with it to grow the brand.
A small army of part-timers who consider TKP a passion project and contribute a column or some other skills, some retirees who need to fill some time, or a student who needs an avenue to gain experience in software engineering, marketing, or journalism, all of whom love the university and would be happy to do it for (mostly) the love of it, could probably do more with that money than a single writer could.
I'll reiterate that I've thrown a decent amount of cash towards the site, first to keep it running, then to keep it free, and overall to help enable Joe to make more good decisions about the direction of the business, and he keeps coming through. My $84 a year is going to be available to him to use however he pleases.
I don't want this to turn into a political discussion, but taxes. Consider them and the cost of the bottle opener and shipping and each TKPC membership nets about $45.
Nah that's fair. It's good to know what the cost actually is, thanks. Can it be a nonprofit?
Good thing your web browser has a 'back' button?
This has been asked and answered numerous times over the past month or so. The answer has remained the same:
Thanks. But now as for why it's a randomly occurring event.....TIC...sort of
Just a mention, I worked on a 'product' (really an infrastructure project) for my company's licensing model and third party payment services build in a lot of this stuff. Monthly payments, subscription cancellation, email notifications when the renewal period is up, tons of payment methods, a wide variety of currency acceptance options (including VAT for European countries), etc, etc. It would still take work but these systems are available.
Are those third party services free or do they cost money too?
Oh no they cost something for sure, both in time to integrate your system as well as a percentage of the value of the transactions (I think this is how it works, I'll look into it). But depending on how much time and energy it takes to develop and maintain a homegrown system, it could be worth it.
Given the usage fluctuations of a site like this (i.e., very high in football season, medium in BB season and low the rest of the year), Joe's 6 month concern is very real. As a result, not only is monthly billing a royal pain for Joe to code, going from 1K payments during FB season, to a couple hundred (or less) in the low period doesn't provide a stable cash flow.
To illustrate from my personal experience:
My wife and I run a mobel food ministry (charity), that feeds people in need, in our county (we literally set up outdoor food pantries in economically impoverished areas). The monthly givers provide a stable cash flow for us. We end up using the annual donations for periodic expenses (insurance, vehicle repairs). For our model we need more monthly than annual, but always sweat it a bit in spring and summer when the monthly giving isn't sufficient to cover the on going monthly expenses. Fortunately we receive sufficient annual donations (at Christmas time), to be able to hold some back to cover the dry times, but this is only possible because we've been doing it for 6 years and know the cash flow pattern. In the 1st year, we and a few of our board members ponied up some of our own money to get threw the low donation months (ponied up more than we already were giving).
Until Joe has some experience with the cash flow patterns and has an idea of attrition at renewal, it's very difficult for him to make a commitment to a possible employee (who may be more than just a reporter, but will likely need to have some tech skills).
Just my additional $0.02
edited to fix typos
"I don't want to contribute financially, but please code some new things to make my life easier"
I've lost track of the number of comments I've typed then subsequently deleted before posting today.
Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh, but TKP staff doesn't owe anyone anything. This is their site, not ours. They can do whatever they want, whenever they want to and if I don't like it then I go somewhere else. Thats it.
I understand that some could be temporarily disappointed, but to the level expressed at the top is mind-boggling.
This is a sports information website, not a life altering news outlet.
Is this Joe?
via GIPHY
If I pay can I turn off comments I don't want to see or feel are irrelevant like a lot in here? I don't pay I don't read...ooook then. /s
If you hit the handy dandy arrow / carrot at the side of comments or replies, it minimizes and hides the whole section. Hope this helps!
I'm willing to bet $$$ that once the TKPC gets to 1000+ there will never be TKPC exclusive content again...
*As long as it stays above the threshold needed to keep the website alive
I kind of want to get my thoughts down here just to get them out there, so here they are.
I don't really like that some of the content here is going behind a paywall. I understand why it's happening, and I think it's a fair reason. I think part of my feeling that way is that I joined TKPC under the premise that we were "keeping it free for everyone" by subscribing. Now I feel like those of us who are subscribing are promoting the idea that we should get premium content in return... and that's not what I signed up for.
Will I be resubscribing when my year is up? I don't know at this point, but I'm leaning towards "no" because I despise paywalls. I think it's a good value, sure, but I feel like the realities of how much it's costing Joe to run are directly in conflict with what I liked so much about this site compared to similar offerings elsewhere. Today, it feels like we've taken a step towards being just another site amongst the other ones that have paywalls for the "best" content.
I'm a bit wary of what the next step is when we still don't get 1000 TKPC subscribers in the coming months. I think that's a realistic concern, both that we won't grow that large and that further premium content will need to be stuck behind the paywall.
Mostly I'm just sad that, like most good things, money is getting in the way. Take these thoughts for what you will from a guy whose main contributions here are gifs from old movies and cartoons.
I agree, that was my rational. Sure, I like that I can still read French's analysis, but I would prefer it if it was open to all. Unfortunately we need about 700 more People who feel this way.
If we want a "free" site, then people who can afford it need to donate and join the club.
Exactly, nothing is free. Somebody is paying something, somewhere. To keep this site 'open' and free for the masses, a few needed to contribute money. The donation route didn't work so it's time for more aggressive tactics. To be honest, blocking a single article every now and then isn't all that aggressive. I really like this first step.
Reminds me of my favorite Russian phrase.
"The only thing that's free is cheese in a mousetrap."
That doesn't look very Russian.
Then how about:
"In Mother Russia, mousetrap cheeses YOU!"
Once you start taking money it's not free anymore ;)
You know what would be really cool? A discounted TKP membership if you could show proof of Hokie Club membership.
Or maybe student discount. Students are poor.
What Joe needs to find is some old retired guy, whose has way too much time on his hands and is an avid football and generally a big sports fan, with ties at VT. Someone who has time to travel to all the games and is willing to do the job for basically beer money. Wait a minute, I think I just described myself. Maybe in the future Joe.
Did you just describe Frank Beamer? OMG, are you Frank Beamer?
Hi, my name is hokie07ME and I like graphs. Below is a graph of the TKPC membership over time. The maroon diamonds indicate a TKPC update post or otherwise call to membership (I may have missed one in there or possibly a relevant comment thread, but this is mostly right). Most spikes in membership go along with an update post. Sadly, the birthday update where Joe basically told us TKP is ruining his life and he needs help saw literally no one join up.
Anyone care to guess about the spikes in membership that don't correspond to the update posts?
Early May I believe there was a reminder post about TKPC. I remember because its what spurned me to join.
11/29 was when Joe accidentally locked down one of French's columns to TKPC members overnight. The ensuing panic caused 16 people to join.
12/27 was when the official locking down of the first post on TKP happened for TKPC members. The act of doing so spurned on 16 more to join.
that would explain the jump in may, but I couldn't find the post itself. Link?
Uhhh...
Early May was probably a big recruiting report when someone committed, either that or Torrian Gray leaving
Mid August, pre-point, was probably game week, Liberty
Late November was probably when the French article was 'accidentally' paywalled, either that or just a sound beating of LOLUVA
How'd I do?
There were a series of "if we get to x number of members, we'll have a AMA for ___ member" leading up to the start of the season. I think gradually over the course of a couple weeks, that led to the groundswell of members between early August and the start of the season.
I knew we were getting close to the first anniversary of TKPC. Very soon we might start seeing something we haven't witnessed yet: membership numbers going down. I doubt the retention rate will be 100%, which means it's critical to find new members to help offset anyone who chooses not to renew.
I don't want to open a full on argument/flame war, but this has been a fascinating socio-economic experiment:
People seem to fall within distinct categories:
We have a lot of national discussion around the topic of social welfare. It would appear that the same discussions happen when it comes to paying for internet content.
I fall under category 7...
"I have $84, but I'm that asshole who's going to milk the internet for free stuff until Satan himself knocks me over."
However, I do have a little time to kill, so I'll pitch in with a pitch....
$84 is 3 tanks of gas, or dinner for 3 at Outback, or 8 Chipotle burritos, or 8 delicious pies from K&W, or 16 bales of pine needles, or 6 12 packs of Heineken. I've probably got $84 in change between the ashtray in the car, the shelf in the laundry room, and the sofa cushions. If you want that key thingy, just get it. Put it on a credit card, and then you have 30 days to hustle up $84. If not, come hang out with me. We'll go try to start Napster back up or something.
It's not a big deal.
Leonard, you're always on point.
I didn't want to call you out by name
When Matt Canada ran to his new 3x salary I thought "Pitt must feel like a stepping stone". If Narduzzi has another good year he is probably gone too.
After digging around I concluded that Pitt simply wasn't willing to pay the price to be competitive (i.e.: salaries). Until they do I don't see them keeping a good coach long term, nor being a sustained threat for the coastal.
Call me naive, but I don't feel that Justin, Bud, or Buzz are looking for the next better gig. Whitt found the right coaches and *spent the proper bucks* to keep our program moving in the right direction.
Hmmm. Sounds sorta familiar. Here's to a successful Hokie and TKP Club drives. We have an exceptional football program and an exceptional forum.
I understand this from both sides. I ran a soccer team, created the web site, contacted field rentals, washed the jerseys, gave rides and etc...while doing it all voluntarily. The TKP staff and Joe have a certain way of doing things and certain standard that they created and we should all respect that because they do this all voluntarily. I can understand why they would want to block certain content. The amount Spent on writers or hiring a full-time resource is necessary to keep up with demands of the modern news cycle, especially with social media. There is no write or wrong answer from the community. I recall whenever I changed policy or raised fees, people would dropout of the team, there is no difference here. But the TKP is mentioned in a lot of places and from seeing the Map above, we are only rising in membership mainly because this is a fun, quality and a place where I can find out VT sports news fairly quickly.
Can I get the film breakdown, related stories somewhere else? Sure I can but I would have to dig around the web, maybe get some news from Bitter but I don't like his writing style always....so I will stick to TKP.
I'm not a student and I can afford the TKP 84 per year but I chose not to pay just so I can make my own choice and use the money some where else.
Overall, I think despite the pay for certain articles, we still get great content otherwise. Heck you can start your own forum as a member given that you follow the guidelines. So I wouldn't lose sleep over this policy change, we still get great content and we should continue as a community.
my only beef with the moderators is that sometimes they start commenting in a forum topic and seem to back each other's opinion. It gets a bit annoying sometimes but I can live with it.
Can you explain what you mean by this? There's one mod (me, hi!) so I'm curious as to what you mean here.
I have absolutely no idea what he is talking about. But I will say, while there is one "official" moderator there are others that take it upon themselves to act as a moderator for some threads. I think this is a great thing as the official moderator (you) can't be everywhere. Most of us are adults and we should be capable of self-regulating. With that said, some people are plain irritating about it. It used to bother me, but I got over it and just accepted that people will be the way they are.
I meant to say TKP staff. For example, if one of the TKP staff members disagrees with me on recruiting, the other TKP staff pile on me and come to the aid of the their fellow TKP staff member. I would think we have our own way of thinking. That's where I'm coming from. Anyway, its not a big deal. I'll keep reading what I read, people can disagree with me if they want.
As in it appears that they've discussed issues like policies for the site and how to support future growth? Would you expect anything different?
I don't think that page views or unique page views are the best metric of potential interest in membership. While there will always be some people who highly value the content without having any interest in being part of the community, I suspect that the truer measure of those who value the site involves the number of people who post regularly (say, averaging at least twice a month for the past 6 months) and have been active within the last two months. That number would surely be much smaller than the number of unique page views, but would better reflect the people who value the site. There's unique and high quality stuff all in one place here, and that's essential, but ultimately all sites are expendable. The people who pay for things are people who feel part of a community.
I previously agreed with that, sort of. But isn't that akin to judging the Roanoke Times Online interest by article comments? Yeah, this is a fan forum so there should be more commenting, but I've personally referred a number of people here that I know read and never comment. Hell, I'm not convinced that they even read the comments. I don't think he could go by comment frequency alone.
Even newspapers that are fully available online (are any not anymore?) have seen their subscriptions dying off - almost identical content is available all over the internet.
I do think that there are people who value the content and never post (but there are also people who will post but don't value the site enough to pay, those may balance each other out somewhat), but the people who are actively engaged are a better metric for caring enough to potentially be convinced to pay.
I made a somewhat similar argument as you about a week ago, but used turkey legs instead of posts. This was Joe's response:
Link for more context and pictures!
I still don't buy that repeat visits for over 5 minutes indicates that there's any hook that would get these visitors to join or that this signifies actual engagement - especially insofar as the decision to buy in is made emotionally.
I posted this previously - I see my membership like my support of my local alumni group - it's a matter of principle to me that alumni have community regardless of how engaged I am personally and hopefully my ability to pay makes up for someone who loves it here but can't afford it. But what pushed me over the edge was reading comments where individuals talked about how much being able to keep TKP alive would mean to them.
OTOH, I'm a repeat visitor who has read many pages but whose engagement is skin deep. And I think I'm the rule, not the exception. Except for a very few places that I'm personally invested in, everything on the internet is replaceable. There are sites I read daily and there are sites that are gone that I miss. But within a few days, anything that disappeared would be filled in with something else. I'd bet that almost everyone here has a site where they look like an engaged visitor - frequent visits, long visits, but if they found it was going away, it would elicit a moment's regret and then a shrug.
I did the thing and got a key! Thanks to all who keep this content coming!
400
That means we're almost half of the way there #smallvictories
#math
Now I'm not very good at math but that doesn't seem to add up.
wow, loads of commentary going on in multiple threads.
I have not been active much recently. My workload has exponentially increased so I just don't have the time. Having said that, I believe I am officially 401.
I have been on TKP since the early, early days. I think I found it soon after Joe launched it and can still find my comments there, under a different username, in those early stages. The site has changed a lot since then.
At that time there was almost no option for me to enjoy VT football other than on sports sites. I had the TSL experience, and though better now the community was not for me. I was posting on other VT sites as well, which have fallen away since then. Joe, however kept things going, kept it interesting and kept the site evolving. And what many don't know he, from time to time, went above and beyond in connecting me personally to VT football when I otherwise would never have had a chance to enjoy it.
A lot of people asking, why should I pay?
point is, you don't have to. That's always been the point, and still is. But if you look at the early days when I first started posting on TKP, before the articles and French and most of everything now there has been significant and in many cases wholesale changes and upgrades to this part of the internet.
Change brings a lot of things. Rejection is always part of that, but change could also bring something that could appeal to you even more than now. A lot of people comment that they come here for French's reviews, which for someone named French who doesn't like cheese, are surprisingly top notch, but they weren't even part of the original TKP. The point is, Joe has continually tried to improve TKP to provide you and me the best Hokie information possible. That included getting people like the aforementioned cheese loather, Mason, Alex, Joey, Joel, VTGM, Rob, 5th Fuller, Billy the pornstar, mstrawther, etc all to contribute for what I imagine was for a shot of bourbon and a dinner at most.
Now because he has hit his wall in balancing out his personal life, his job and what I imagine is a sincere love of Hokie Sports with managing the best damn VT sports page he needs someone to do it full time. That requires money. The same thing we all expect for doing work is exactly what a full time employee is going to expect. Everyone that currently contributes has a job and a life. Nobody is here doing this as a job. That shouldn't be taken so lightly.
I, like many, don't know what a dedicated beat writer will add to in terms of content but unlike those many, I don't give a damn either. I don't care precisely because I do remember the time before French and his reviews. Because had Joe said at that time he was going to hire a guy named French to do reviews and that he needed the community to pay, I would have said "no" then just as a lot of people are now. But here we are years later and it's exactly what almost everyone agrees is the highest value in the content that is offered. That's impressive.
Personally, my time from those early TKP days to now saw me open my own businesses and see them grow. I understand now more than ever that those that lead in business see the long game but often can only justify value in ways that seem unworthy. I also understand that small businesses have higher expenses and while $84 seems like a lot when compared to other subscription based sites, those sites have tens of thousands to millions of subscribers. Not 400 or the ideal 1000. Money isn't the same for a small business, it's needs are always more to pay for less. That's just how it is.
So I don't expect transparency. I don't expect explanation. I just want TKP to keep doing what it does.... improve. That's what Joe has done since day 1 and until he proves otherwise the history of this site shows me it's money well spent.
Join or don't join. it's up to you.
P.S.
I hope that this site eventually grows into something even more community based. I see the seeds of it.
TKPers extending messages of grief to a giving community. Others offering to help pay for membership of others. People giving game tickets to others. helping find jobs. And I am sure I missed some too. There are A LOT of great people here that post and I am certain many more out there that don't. And just as the site has grown and improved I think the community has as well. So if you can't afford it now, come back when you can. Save up. Or as Leonard pointed out sap it for its worth until it is 100% not free. again your choice and NO ONE should be blamed for their decision.
And for all the lady Hokies out there, Amber not Amber, hokiegirl, EP, Palmetto, HokiePie... please join the commentary. I think you will find while it is overwhelmingly sausage and full of Emma Watson that everyone here is welcoming and supportive to both genders, and if they aren't they will get ban hammered.
Please for the love of god write a column. Even just once every quarter I don't care how often just please.
Thanks Fireman. I would be honored to write something, but I am so far removed from Hokie Sports that I don't think I could offer much except for my reactionary commentary that I post in threads already. Unless you just want to hear about the random things I am doing that are completely OT but not sure TKP is the space for that.
If you love and want to hear about the UN Global Goals, Smart Cities, Rapid Building Construction, real estate development, all things design (urban, arch, la, ia, etc), senior living, soil remediation or waste to energy systems then yeah I definitely could write something on the regular.
I get that other sites may have millions. But let's play with math. TKPPC goal is 1000 at $84. That's for a total of $84,000. Includes salary for writer, I'm assuming to cover travel and food costs. At the moment there is 40% jumped in.
Not sure total people who are members of TKP, but let's say there are at least 10k. 40% of that at $25 exceeds that initial goal.
Again not sure about membership numbers, but I bet more people are willing to throw in 25 bucks, which has potential to have higher numbers. Anyway just a thought.
certainly understand this point and have no idea. I guess the issue becomes if the exact same number of people (currently 411) were the only amount willing to donate, or perhaps only a small bump of people were added (perhaps up to 500), then your net gain would be much less than the $84 for the same number of people.
personally, I think TKP needs secondary income streams to support a fulltime employee, like the merchandising . That requires getting inventive and also having someone permanently in Blacksburg. Unless you overwhelmingly have the membership numbers it would be difficult to hire someone on a financial model that could drastically swing year to year.
Complains about communication
Ok...