And it's not because we had them on the ropes this season. Don't get me wrong I love that!
I just see our programs as pretty close mirror images. Both great football programs that were upper tier programs, but not elite in recent years. Clemson brings in Dabo and they completely renovate their offense and eventually upgrade their defensive coordinator and they thrusted themselves into the elite catagory by winning prestigious bowl games, getting to the natty, and now winning it.
Gives me hope that now that we have an offensive guru and a defensive mastermind that we can do the same. If we keep winning games like the Belk Bowl we will win the better recruits.
To be an over achiever, you have to be an over believer!
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I agree. Baby steps and then the big leap to the CFP.
This was discussed in another thread, but it bears repeating here...
Clemson secured 4 straight years of Top 20 classes before Dabo arrived, and when they were wallowing in mediocrity when we were dominating the conference. Their recruiting annually outperformed what we were able to bring in despite us having the wins. Yes, their recruiting tailed off a bit right after he was hired, but they made solid fundamental changes to how they approached the recruiting aspect of college football, and once they were able to break through (unfortunately at our expense in 2011) they took off and never looked back.
I'm not saying we can't do this, but its not going to be an easy process, and we are a heck of a lot further from the goal than we would like to believe. We are excited this year because it looks like we are going to finish with a recruiting class in the Top 20. For Clemson, they were getting this routinely before they started their rise.
A main, main factor contributing to this is that Clemson's pockets are deeper because their fans and alumni are far, far more engaged in fundraising than we are. When they made the decision to go all in on recruiting, they could do it because they had the financial backing to completely overhaul their recruiting process and the facilities that are provided to their athletes to be a step above the field. If we ever hope to rise up to the level of the elites in our own conference with Clemson and Florida State, we have to act like it, and the first step in acting like it is paying like it.
This is basically it. They have a huge support staff and pay their assistants like crazy. Maybe we can parlay 10 win seasons into program money this time around, but we are farther back off the field than we are on the field.
Whit and Co. are trying to change this. We have the alumni base to get it done, we have outstanding school spirit/pride, and we have Ut Prosim. The problem is that most other P5 programs have a couple decades head start on us. What I mean by that, is most schools have been working/training/engaging their alumni for athletic donations on a large scale far longer than we have. Bama, Mich, OSU, schools like that have football traditions predating VT. Most of the ACC schools have BBall traditions that go way back. So I really feel like we are playing catch up in this area.
We also don't have that many non athletic famous alumni. It doesn't sound like an issue but it is. We lack in the entertainment area and it's probably because we are a tech based school.
To be fair, I find myself pretty entertaining. So we got that going for us...which is nice
via GIPHY But Hoda
I love Hoda.
We need to make sure she is donating!
Let's all be Debbie downers...
Whit is in the process of turning this around with his new initiative. We have started the turn around. Be optomistic.
I don't see it as being a Debbie Downer. I actually see this as being Example 1a of why people need to listen to this Drive for 25 and make it work. The difference between us and Clemson is their fundraising. VT is making a monumental effort to close that gap.
When this rolled out last month, there was a pretty large complaint of "why should I do this, I already pay ____ per year and why should I give if the results aren't there". Because the giving plants the seeds for the program to take off, and if we get everyone on board as the Athletic Department is tasking us to do, there is no reason why we can't take that next step, too.
this isn't about being a downer, its about reminding people why its important and what is legitimately possible.
I always get these confused. Is the optomist the one who sells you glasses or the one who can do eye surgery? Or is that the opthalmist?
Opthalmologist - A medical eye doctor
Optometrist - Performs vision exams
Optician - Can fit you for glasses
Oculist - Generic and outdated term for any type of eye professional
wow, totally just trying to be a dick by making fun of the spelling of optimistic, but thanks for the education anyway.
I was looking into getting one of them oculist rifts, but I've never been much of an early adopter... /s
Just be careful and don't get it confused with occultist in the yellow pages. That could spell trouble.
Usually it just spells "occultist" so I wouldn't worry too much.
If your yellow pages are spelling "occultist" by themselves, then I would worry a lot.
I would restate in this manner:
Ophthalmologist: Eye Surgeon
Optometrist: primary eyecare doctor
and you got the other two correct. I'm an Optometrist and I routinely diagnose and treat glaucoma, conjunctivitis, perform corneal foreign body removals, perform diabetic eye exams and measure patients vision for glasses and contacts.
I don't suppose you'd know any decent glaucoma specialists relatively close to Blacksburg? My doc is out in VA Beach and I'd really, really like to get someone closer.
I'm sorry, I do not. I am currently part of a large surgical practice in SWFL. I am not familiar with eye care professionals in Virginia.
Thanks for the clarification. You learn something everyday!
Ophthalmologist M.D.
Optometrist O.D.
I see what you did there.
Ophthalmologist is the only one that goes to medical school, no different than any other doctor you go to.
They also have better weather and more co-eds. I'm not saying that plays a role...but it plays a role.
If weather and co-eds were really that important, the Big Ten would never be able to recruit.
Just sayin....
So if the weather, co-eds, beach life, etc. aren't what is drawing recruits away from VT and towards programs like FSU, Clemson, etc, how exactly do we parlay an increase in program donations/revenue into better recruiting? What exactly do other programs do with their money that give them such an advantage? Is it simply being able to pay more for better assistants? Facilities? We have the best indoor practice facility in the country and the Merryman Center has been completely revamped. We have the best dining program in the country. I'm in complete agreement that we need to increase our fundraising drastically, but what exactly do we need to do with the funds that the current top recruiting programs are already doing? Just an honest question.
Pretty much that, staff and facilities. Clemson has a bunch of additional specialized staff members for their athletes that we don't have. The additional funds to bring those kind of staff members to Blacksburg would go a very long way into closing the gap.
As for facilities, while the facilities we have are nice, they still pale in comparison to the overly lavish facilities that have been built by the elites over the last few years. Clemson's athletes village they're in the process of building right now is going to be a ridiculously over the top facility that will be a major selling point for that program for years to come. A major part of why we need these additional funds is to design and build our own over the top facility that can be our own selling point for recruits down the line. While having a great practice facility is nice, and having a great locker room is nice, and having Merryman renovated for our coaches and staff is nice, what really sells to recruits right now is providing a leisure spot that stands out from the pack.
I don't have the exact source or quote, but I'm pretty sure Whit went on record last year saying that he thought Clemson's football investments were way overkill. I just can't see the administration at VT and BOV signing off on a putt putt course and laser tag for football players.
Honestly I'm surprised those things don't fall under the "impermissible benefits" umbrella. Do they have a facility offering free putt-putt and laser tag for the general student population?
I love sports and want VT to be successful but there are still limits within reason and at some point enough is enough. I honestly believe the NCAA bubble is going to burst sooner or later considering it's getting harder to get butts in the actual seats for a multitude of reasons and at the same time significant numbers of subscribers are tired of paying for cable packages and cutting the cord. Not to mention college athletes want to be paid and that isn't going away. All the while the cost of a college education for the average student continues increasing while schools pressure in-debt alumni for money from every angle possible, including to compete in an arms race for athlete lounges that are filled with waterfalls, putt putt, laser tag, HDTVs, Playstations, and any other luxury you can conjure up.
By no means do I think sports are going away, but I think these investments should be carefully considered and heavily scrutinized when they are spiraling so far out of touch with reality for the average student and fan.
Very well correct on this point, bubble always has to burst. However, NFL is getting destroyed on ratings right now, CF is down, but not anywhere close to as much. The college TV contracts are getting bigger for the very reason that attendance is down in stadiums, more butts in seats in front of the TV.
The fact is the bubble only means reversion to the norm. 2001, most of those same type of companies are publicly traded today, just not as many or at the same valuation. 2007, if you think real estate would stay tanked and MBS were somehow going to disappear, not that it was the culprit itself (started decades ago as a way to add liquidity for many of us to get home loans), that was never a possibility. It is about peaks and valleys, who knows where this one falls off, but as you said, it's not gonna just kick the bucket. More a pullback at some point IMO.
Finally, schools pressure for the same reason you post here, alumni want, don't need, want their teams to be good or even great. If there was no demand for greatness, there would be no demands for funds. This is a marketplace, for coaches, for talent, for resources. If we don't want it, that is cool, bag it up, shut it down, but to say the schools are pressuring is to ignore where the demand is coming from to be better.
Turn Slusher Beach into an actual beach.
I'm ok with this.
He said it was a factor, not the only factor.
...and I agree it's a factor.
VT has plenty of co-eds for the football team.
VT is a great program, I and feel great about the current athletic director and coach. I'm expecting some improvement, though it may take time.
That number of co-eds is dwindling. When I was in school in the mid 2000s, VT was the only state school with more males than females and IIRC, the last freshman incoming class was 75% male. Yikes!
Seems off. The entire undergraduate student body is 57% male, 43% female. I have a hard time believing that the freshman class was 75% male.
https://www.vt.edu/about/factbook/student-overview.html
I got the info from my cousin, who is a female freshman. Perhaps she was exaggerating.
Maybe she's referring to her classes, which can be highly varied in gender ratios depending on field.
We probably are on par or outrecruit the majority of the Big 10, outside of their blue bloods (e.g. UM, OSU, Penn State etc.)
I wasn't aware there were B1G schools that played football outside of UM, OSU, and PSU so I would certainly hope we could out-recruit them
We're number in the ACC for 2017 class and could move up if we finish strong. This is a lot better compared to the last 10 years.
We're getting better in Virginia.
We're really strong in north Carolina, especially Charlotte area.
We're doing good in Maryland too.
The new coaches are really energetic and we will get better recruits with more wins
My context clues say you're going for a number between 2 and 14.
Yeah because preseason in Georgia/Alabama/Florida is a BLAST.
The fundraising is everything in the difference between us and them right now, and in the past. Their IPTAY program is really successful. Living in Charleston, you can't drive anywhere without seeing an IPTAY sticker somewhere and that's in a city where quite a bit of the population is from elsewhere to water down the support. In many ways it's surprising it took them as long as it did to get the coaching situation right to go on this roll when you consider their financial backing is close to the top of the conference.
As someone who grew up in a Clemson family and just down the road from the school I can definitely confirm this. Being a part of IPTAY is honestly the cool thing to do if you are a Clemson grad. I have several friends who still scrape by on their rent but give to IPTAY. I not saying that's a good idea it's just the culture.
For what it is worth, I made my first donation ever to the Hokie Club, specifically for scholarships, today. It isn't much, but I wanted to put my money where my mouth was.
Note on fundraising woes. The Drive for 25 has netted the Hokie Club about 500 new members since it was announced.
Only 14,000 more to go.
/s
I'm not opposed to fundraising, and I think there is room for improvement, but if it were just money, wouldn't Alabama have won?
Clemson spent $24 million on football in 2015, more than 75 percent of top-tier football schools—but still less than half of the $51 million football budget at Alabama. The Crimson Tide also earns more: Alabama's football program brings in $97 million, more than twice what Clemson's does—in fact, more than the South Carolina school's entire athletics budget. - Bloomberg
Sure, money is important. Whit and Fuente are doing the right thing. I like the improvements.
How much did we pay? Is it close to $24 million?
At some point it may not make a difference and it tapers off, but we're not at that point yet fundraising-wise.
That's a great question. We have to be careful to compare apples to apples, and every publication does it a bit differently.
I agree with your conclusion, though.
I'm glad VT got into the ACC when they did, and we certainly need the ACC TV revenues to gain parity those of the SEC and B1G. We also need to improve our fundraising. Winning and good coaching helps.
We were at 26 million in overall football expenses as of FY 2015
Alabama has won 4 of the last 8 national championships. Losing a single year, while still making it to the championship game, does not invalidate that trend. I'd say money is doing a pretty good job for them.
I'm just saying that Clemson leapfrogged a lot of programs that spend more than them. There is certainly a relationship between money and success, and I'm all for more fundraising, but
We're not going to outspend Alabama or Ohio State any time soon. I'm hoping that this doesn't mean we can't recruit better than we do, and I think the Clemson model proves that.
USA Today has correlated some numbers on this in recent years, and some of the top spenders weren't the best recruiters, or the top performers. That said, there is nobody is at the top in recruiting without investing fairly significantly on their football program. It's hard to quantify, but there's no magic formula.
Just like in anything else in life, the law of diminishing returns applies to how much you spend on your football program.
Exactly.
Just to be clear, though, I think VT can put additional funds to good use, I am a Hokie Club member, and I encourage every VT fan to be one.
I'm just saying let's not oversimplify it, or use it as a convenient excuse to lower our expectations. We need a lot of things to go right to get to the next level, and I'd define that as top 10 rankings, the ACC Championship, and a shot at the playoffs. It will take better recruiting, great effort by the coaching staff and players, and better facilities -- and part of that is more funding. Particularly since improving the football program is happening at the same time as an improving basketball program.
It was very interesting to see Bama and Clemson again.
My quick take-away as it relates to VT, is that if we ever want to win a Nat'l Championship we need an elite QB. Bama is just about the only school now-a-days that can win CFP without elite QB play. Hurts is a game-changer, but I think last night proved he isn't elite yet, and they almost won. Bama can win with elite defense and elite RB and throw in an elite WR/TE (Howard), because they can continually recruit at that level. Clemson won because they had Watson, an elite QB. He was surrounded by great talent, but they needed every bit of Watson's ability and talent to win. Watson was incredible down the stretch this season.
It says to me, that if we want to win the CFP, Fuente has to go get and develop an elite QB, and retain Foster on staff. VT's margin for error in any given season/game is so small compared to that of a Bama. Tim Tebow, Cam Newton, we could name more. But when I think of Bama championship teams, I don't think of QB first, I always think of their RB first.
Hopefully JJ or Hooker can be our Watson/Tebow/Newton.
FTFY. If he's in, bama actually converts some of those 3rd downs in the 4th quarter and Clemson doesn't even get the ball enough to stage that comeback.
That only enhances the point I was making.
Bama relies on elite D and elite RB, where Clemson needed elite QB plus Bama's elite RB to be out. I just feel that Bama is the only team in the country right now that can win CFP with that recipe. Everyone else needs a spread-like Offense, a strong D, and an elite QB.
Bama lost their RB and Clemson lost their best pass rusher/disrupter. The loss of Bo IMO was not as big of a blow since they are loaded at RB. Bama lost the game playing not to lose rather than to win in the 2nd and 3rd quarters.
Ferrell is not their best pass rusher/disrupter. Lawrence, Watkins, and Wilkins were all consistently better throughout the year. I would say, by the end of the year Ferrell was playing better than Wilkins, but that statement is just not accurate. That's based off him having two big games that you watched.
Bo was the only thing on their offense that was consistently working, and it was a clear and obvious blow. The other backs, though talented, are not the bulking bruiser that Scarbrough is, and in the 4th quarter he has been unstoppable. Which given his success against a fired up and less tired defense in the first half, no reason to think he wouldn't have been successful running in the 4th. I think it was an enormous loss and the number of three and outs and the overall dysfunction on offense after his injury would support this idea.
If they didn't have an elite QB or anything else previously mentioned, it wouldn't have mattered if they took Scarbrough out.
I think this is a false narrative that was more perception than reality. After Bo's second touchdown he ran for 5, 2, 1, -3, 3, 3, 6, and 5 yards, averaging 2.75 ypc. Clemson had effectively slowed down Alabama's running game by the time he went out with an injury. He may have made a difference, but I still think it's far more likely Clemson still wins given how well their defense had adjusted.
Yes and no.
An elite QB makes it much easier to have the success needed to get the golden lipstick, but its not everything. What you really need, and this is true even in the NFL, is a OL that will keep whoever is your QB off his ass, enough talent catching the ball to take advantage of the time the OL provides, and an elite defense that will at least slow down the opponent. And you need the coaching to put it together.
We have the coaching, we have the elite defense, and we have the offensive talent to make defenses pay. What we don't have is a OL capable of keeping our QB off his ass on most plays. If we ever got that, we'd be right up there with the best teams in the country. Unfortunately, that just seems to be our kryptonite. Unfortunately, taking that step, and getting the coaching and staff and resources available to routinely recruit all areas of need is more than a simple fix and will require the kind of cultural and financial change at the Hokie Club level. My hope is that Drive for 25 works, and we are able to make this happen. Clemson has shown us that it is possible, but its up to us as fans to make sure it happens.
I agree. Clemson is good. Deshaun Watson is a special player.
I think what a lot of people have to keep in mind with our fan base is its pretty young. Clemson's been around and beyond relevant for AGES, they won a natty in 1981. We really burst onto the scenes in the 90s particularly 99, check out the stats that the season brought to us in research funding, admissions, and national exposure. Give it some time and patience we're not going to hit clemson standards over night we have to keep pushing and be consistent and let the fan base grow and get lucky that hopefully some hokie invents the next nike or gatorade or something
This is far more significant than people realize. I know a lot of people here in SC that were shelling out to Clemson even before the '81 Championship.
Edit: So I did some research and I found that the IPTAY program has been around since 1934 for Clemson. I looked for the same information on the Hokie Club and couldn't find it. Does anyone know when the Hokie Club was created?
i'm actually pretty sure that clemson had the first athletic/booster club, at least it is believed by many to be the OG
Yea they at least had one of the first if not the first. At least the guys who invented it came up with the idea themselves as opposed to getting it from somebody else. Basically back in 1931 Clemson's football team was garbage and the coach and several others got together to see what they could come up with to help the program out. About 3 years later IPTAY was born.
Holy batcrap, Robin!
I don't pretend to know what IPTAY is, but a quick googling of it tells me that it's ridiculously successful. People must be paying more than ten a year. Participating in/winning national championships probably helps.
You can't Join at just ten anymore.
Maybe ten hundred.
VT has the 16th most wins in FBS history, tied with aTm.
Clemson is .....21st.
VT has a much better football history than most fans recollect.
I can see better already!
Or "optimistic". Whichever.
Deshaun Watson is a special quarterback. That doesn't guarantee a championship (Michael Vick), but it's a great way to level a talent gap of two teams within spitting distance. Alabama was the more talented team, but Watson's greatness was able to overcome Alabama's roster advantage.
Virginia Tech will have to recruit closer to an elite level, and if the the Hokies aren't landing top 10-or-better classes, but can hang around the 20s, Tech will need to find its next special signal caller.
Spot on. I have a hunch that Jackson or more likely Hooker can turn into that special player to close that gap, but like Alum07 said, it has to be combined with an inproved line to keep him upright and to respect our run game.
Love the optimism, but my hunch is that the "special QB" we're waiting for is 2 or 3 years away
Henden is not amused.
I have my #sauces in the program that would strongly disagree with you but what do I know? A hokie can hope they're right cant he??
I certainly hope that is the case, and both Jackson and Hooker were well-recruited by other programs so it's definitely a possibility that one could break through
Yeah me too! Having our first hand picked QB in Hooker is a big deal but Jackson also has looked the part in practice too.
Agreed, but JJ and HH can be 3500+, 30+ yd QBS in Fuentes system, which is enough to make us competitive for the ACC.
We should temper expectations for next year too. Our model is probably closer to Clemson than Bama on offense - we need a special QB and not a special RB to make us tick, so Bama could get away with a true frosh (albeit dynamic) QB since they had a special D and RB that made them work. We need a special and more importantly, EXPERIENCED QB. I have high expectations for 2018.
Uhh Evans had taken 0 D1 snaps coming into this year. We just need someone Fuente likes.
Uhh he was a junior QB who played JUCO. Also the number one rated QB in the JUCO ranks too. He had experience in college.
JJ and Hooker have none.
Experience is the key. I remember seeing an article several years ago that examined the link between conference champions and experience level of the QB. I wish I could remember where I saw this, because it had a good deal of data to back it up. The jist of the article was that very few teams win championships with a first year starter. The likelihood of winning a title increased significantly for each year of game experience. So a senior QB game manager who has been a 2 yr starter can be quite an advantage over a talented redshirt freshman.
This makes perfect sense to me. A talented QB is going to put up good stats in any given game. A smart or experienced QB is going to know how to make good decisions in a tight game and not make critical errors that would cost a game.
I think the quickest way to get to Clemson's level is recruiting. Get better recruits, win bigger games and not lose the ones you're suppose to win. The money will follow that. I know our coaches are great developers but there is something to be said about continuously getting 4 and 5 star players...that was evident last night.
Money and recruiting are basically the same thing . Top recruiting programs have money.
I think we are in the right track with Fuente, he is exactly what this program needed . We just need the right recruits and beef up our o line
Agree. VT has been superb in developing players, however this takes time and more importantly, leaves less performance wiggle room when the injury bug hits. Instead of reaching back the ne next ridiculously talented player on the bench, we reach backwards game mechanics-wise to someone who is in the process of becoming an outstanding player, but may not be there yet.
Scoring 35 against Clemson made me a believer.
When JUGS is finally able to write the article about support staff I think it will open a lot of eyes about what they do.
I agree that QB is a key position and that staff and $$$ make the world go round, but without a good o-line, it doesn't make much diff who your QB is, if your def is all world, or you have a $50 million budget. A good o-line makes everyone better, its the only thing that buys time, and time makes everyone better. Nobody out recruits the IHop, we upgrade our lovers of pancakes, and the sky is the limit.
I think the key here is patience. I read an article that said almost 8 years ago to the day last night Clemson took a chance on a very unknown receivers coach. It took Dabo 8 years to build that program into a national title contender. Us as Hokie nation have to ask ourselves if we can do that as a fan base. Wasn't very long ago we used to roll Clemson even in their house. It's gonna take time for Whit to retool the Hokie club and see the changes, it's gonna take time for us to reach the numeric goal. If it only took laying down in the floor and doing a couple sit ups to get a six pack then everybody would have one. Point being progress and change takes time and consistency and patience are the key.
I'm going to have to go ahead and give you a leg for that, because you're absolutely correct.
The easy part is making excuses. The hard part is making it work.
I appreciate it my good sir!
My attitude about next season is still best summed up by Weird Al:
"Full disclosure, we're not that great. But you still suck"
I think that's my favorite part, and still applicable here. :)