Last night Jim Boeheim commented on the new location for the ACC tournament. He seems to think it's good business sense to have it in NY and there is no reason for it to be in Greensboro. Here's what he had to say:
I'm not going to be around much longer to care about it, but I think that's where the value is. I think there's a huge value in playing the tournament in those places. There's no value in playing Greensboro, none. It's there because the league's been there and the office is there, and they have 150 people that the ACC needs. That's why it's there. It should not be there.
I'm not going to be around much longer to care about it, but I think that's where the value is. I think there's a huge value in playing the tournament in those places. There's no value in playing Greensboro, none. It's there because the league's been there and the office is there, and they have 150 people that the ACC needs. That's why it's there. It should not be there.
Personally, I've always thought Greensboro was the perfect location. You can't tell me the state of North Carolina is not the biggest college basketball state in the Country. Greensboro is centrally located to all of the ACC schools in that state and is a short drive for VT and Clemson as well. That's 6 out of the 14 ACC schools (sorry Notre Dame) within 2.5 hours drive maximum. That's good for 42.8% of the schools in the ACC. While it's not quite as good as Ty Outlaw's 3-point percentage (49.1%), or Seth Allen's 3-point percentage (45.7%), or even Justin Bibb's 3-point percentage (43.2%) (damn, we are good at shooting the 3), that's still much more than the ACC has near New York. By my math (which is really really good, I'm kind of a big deal), that's just Syracuse. I've included an ACC map for the geographically challenged (You're welcome Jim).
I understand that Jim comments are about this conference tournament as a business, but I see it as a school tournament. School tournaments should be about the fans of those teams. No location is going to be prefect, but Greensboro is pretty darn close. Speaking of close, Greensboro had a pretty great response to Boeheim's unprovoked jab:
.@AdamZagoria @ACCSports We kindly disagree. But I guess you can lose in the 1st round anywhere. At least it's a quick ride home.— City of Greensboro (@greensborocity) March 8, 2017
Comments
This is why you always need to refresh before posting. And you had the GIF to boot. Have a leg.
Savage.
Greensboro Coliseum was built primarily to host the ACC Tournament. Boeheim is complaining just because that's who he is, a petulant whiner who thinks he is the end all be all of what is important in college basketball.
This is the same man who strong armed the Big East into never scheduling Syracuse to come to Cassell while we were a member. He's also one of the main reasons we initially were actively prevented from joining the conference in full. He comes into the ACC and attempts to piss on all the tradition that's been built up over the past 50 some odd years because he's a bitter old man who thinks the old Big East never actually blew up.
He's the kind of guy who would build a house next to a race track and then openly petition and campaign his politicians to revoke the race track's license due to the noise.
Thank you. I couldn't agree more. The tournament makes no sense in NYC. It seems to me like some attempt to recreate the magic of the old Big East tourney. Jim Boeheim needs to understand that those days are gone and this is the ACC.
The Big East tournament was definitely a spectacle, but it wasn't just because it was located at MSG. Think about all of those original Big East schools (Syracuse, St. Johns, Villanova, Providence, Georgetown, BC, Seton Hall, UConn, etc.). All schools primarily located in the northeast (Georgetown is in DC, but their alumni base is primarily from the northeast). You have a ton of schools near NYC with students, fans and alumni near NYC and a tournament in NYC - that's why it was so special.
Taking the ACC, whose schools are located mostly in the mid-Atlantic and southeast, and ripping up that tradition by plopping the tourney down in NYC isn't going to have the same effect. NYC is not the ACC's tradition, and I hate that we are trying to appease some sense of nostalgia for the Big East by moving it there. I hear arguments for a new place for fans to travel to, but outside of your diehard followers, attendance will not be the same when fanbases from most schools have to travel a great distance to get there. Traveling to/staying in NYC is NOT cheap. Media will follow the ACC tournament wherever because we are the best conference in college basketball. We could have the tournament in Canada and I guarantee media presence will be strong.
So, sorry, Jim. This isn't the Big East anymore.
Cheer up, the NIT is played in NYC.
...of course, that assumes he can get past the first round...
I get that he comes off as pretentious and petulant, and it's always great to poke fun at him, but he does make some valid points. I don't think that NYC is the answer, especially if we aren't playing at MSG (damn it, Big Least), but the only thing Greensboro has going for it is history and proximity. Well, Charlotte is still very central, while being a much larger and more visible market, and if we really want to have some sort of rotation then visiting DC and Atlanta occasionally would make a ton of sense too. Of course, it doesn't really matter until the political climate in NC changes to where the ACC decides to rescind their ban on championship matches there, but that's a whole different discussion.
Agreed.
If the politicians in the state of North Carolina can figure things out, I think rotating the tournament between Charlotte, NYC, DC and Atlanta is the way to go in the future.
Charlotte is the largest metropolitan area that's close to the conference's geographic center and Boeheim is right about putting the tournament in major media markets. You get way more out of it in terms of exposure.
Here's where he is wrong....
The ACC is going to get the publicity and going to get the personalities to come in anyway because its the Hollywood conference of college basketball. Even when we're not as strong overall as we were this year (really, any of the Top 9 seeds this year could legitimately win the tournament) we're still the glamour conference of the sport. People will make their way to wherever the tournament is because of the name alone.
Its not like this conference is in any serious danger of losing recruits in NYC because we had the tournament in Greensboro that year.
I actually think the recruiting aspect is underrated.
Say you're a kid from the NYC metro area - considering that the league schedule is imbalanced, you may end up at a school that only plays at Syracuse 2 times in your 4 years. But if a coach can sell a recruit on the fact that you'd be playing in at least one ACC Tournament in your hometown during your time in school, that's another piece of the recruiting puzzle.
Not saying it's a huge piece, but it's still a factor to consider.
Agreed, he's got some truth buried in all that salt.
I would stay away from Atlanta since the SEC doesn't rotate their tournament (but maybe they should, New Orleans, Houston, Orlando would all be good choices for them)
But I would keep Greensboro in a rotation. I would go with a simple Brooklyn*-Greensboro-Tampa-Charlotte-DC rotation.
*Let the Big East keep MSG, that's their history. Brooklyn is a great venue and gets you in NYC. I like it a lot and it's probably the most likely ACC Tournament I would attend.
Meh, the Big East is history. If we can muscle our way into MSG, then absolutely do it. That would be a huge event for the conference.
I like the idea of the ACC tossing one more shovel of dirt on the moribund husk of the Big East. Presiding over that conference's death rattle might be Swoffard's swan song.
Since they've gotten out of football and rebranded themselves as another basketball-driven conference, that's what keeps them relevant. Having the reigning champ as one of your members doesn't hurt either.
In short, they're not dead yet.
You're not fooling anyone!!!
the defending national champs (and strong favorite to repeat) and 5-7 tournament teams disagree
Fortunately it's Nashville they don't rotate their tournament away from.
Seriously? I assumed they still played in Atlanta, where they were when the roof caved in and UGA had to win the tournament in front of no fans at GT's arena.
I don't recall. It only moved to Nashville after 2014, but with a couple of exceptions it's supposed to be there through the early 2020s.
Both sides actually have decent points. Greensboro's Coliseum or Arena as a venue is as unimpressive as they come and no one except those with preexisting ties to the area WANTS to visit Greensboro without a damn good reason. Its location is the only draw.
However, having a traveling tournament is pretty cool. There are tons of unique and interesting destinations around the ACC. Off the top of my head, DC, Miami, New York, Boston, and Atlanta would be excellent spots for a rotating tournament. Throw Greensboro in every few years, too and I think it's a best-of-both-worlds deal.
If the ACC Tournament is not a draw than I don't know what is. People don't go to Brooklyn and then happen to drop by the ACC Tournament. They go to the ACC Tournament and then maybe do touristy stuff around NYC. I doubt anyone that wants to go to the ACC Tournament changes their mind because Greensboro doesn't have much to offer. They probably look at a few major things when deciding to go. Cost of travel, cost of lodging and cost of food. In all cases Greensboro is more attractive.
I think the ACC has outgrown Greensboro. It's not North Carolina's league anymore, it's an east coast league. NYC, DC, Philly, Atlanta, and (perhaps) Charlotte should be the primary host sites for an event like this. They should probably move the league offices too. It sucks for a town like Greensboro which is struggling economically but it doesn't make sense for the ACC to be there anymore.
That said, Boeheim is still an ass and Syracuse should've stayed in the Big East. He can have all the MSG he wants.
I'm prejudiced of course. I loved having the tournament in Greensboro because I could drive there in 25 minutes on Friday night and buy really cheap tickets from Maryland and Clemson fans on their way home.
However not having it Greensboro is probably best for those of us who live in the Triad and want to keep the secret of it's magical powers safe.
So is Triad kind of like Tri-Force?
No, the Triad (Winston-Salem, Greensboro, and High Point) is to the Triangle (Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill) what ECU is to Virginia Tech.
Exactly. It's horrible over here. Save yourself and stay away.
I'll keep to the backroad twisties, don't you worry.
So Leonard's a part of the Chinese mafia???? Glad I've never messed with you, dude
Boeheim knows that having the tournament in NC gives the nearby teams a huge home court advantage. I think this has little to do with anything other than not having to play in front of a hugely anti-orange crowd, which given his history and scheduling is obviously very important to him. He wants to play in NYC where they should have the crowd advantage, but would take anything neutral. They way he said it shows the type of person he is, but hard to blame him for wanting whats best for his team and fans.
Greensboro isn't centrally located to the 4 programs. It's close (about 1.5 hours) and I can see why they wouldn't want to have one of those 4 programs actually hosting it as that would be an advantage. I think it should be held in a similar location to where they decide to have the acc cg football game. I always liked charlotte and there is a nba stadium there that could be used.
Any chance the ACC would ever consider Richmond? Does the Siegel Center get used for a conference tourney already?
The Siegel Center doesn't get used for other conference tournaments, but it's just way too small at 7,600 seats for the ACC. In addition, the Richmond Coliseum is a badly outdated venue that only seats 12,000.
Richmond will eventually get its act together on a new arena, but to have any shot at landing the ACC tourney or even NCAA tourney games, it would likely need to have around 17,000 seats.
That's true--I knew the arena was small and didn't even mention the decrepit Coliseum for that reason but was wondering what the actual attendance is for these games in Brooklyn. I feel like a sold out 7500 Siegel Center would be a more fun atmosphere than a 3/4 empty Barclays Center but haven't really looked at the attendance numbers.
The Richmond public school system finds this statement hilarious
Waaahh.
Way to go Greensboro twitter operator.
Went ahead and looked up the tournament site of each conference this year, and cross-referenced that to the list of Metropolitan Statistical Areas, listed by population. By comparison, the Greensboro MSA is the 74th largest, and the only conferences playing in a smaller market (other than those playing games on campus sites) are the Big Sky Conference, the Colonial Athletic Association, the Southern Conference, and the Summit Conference. Here's a list of the results:
People need to realize that, with Greensboro its not about the size of the market but the ease at which the stadium can be filled. Its the one venue that is a relatively short driving distance for a majority of the members of the conference, where fans can make a day trip out of the event. Charlotte is a bit better, but for the conference it doesn't have the history that Greensboro has, which is why the conference will default to Greensboro when it can.
In the same vein, I think people need to realize that a conference tournament is no longer only about butts in seats.
It's a branding exercise, just as much of college athletics is today. Obviously, the location of fanbases is factored in to making those decisions, but it's not the sole factor.
Also, I'd wager an educated guess that the tournament makes just as much, if not more, money in locations like DC or NYC than in Greensboro. Sponsorship opportunities are likely more lucrative by placing the tournaments in bigger markets since there's just more people around.
The old ACC is dead. Greensboro's history makes for wistful storytelling but having the tournament there does little to market the conference (and the schools in it) to a wider audience, which is the main reason college sports exist as they do today. Yes there is still ESPN coverage but no one goes to Greensboro unless they have to (without a pre-existing connection). If Greensboro were the only place the tournament could consistently draw a crowd then it might make more sense to have it there. But it's not. And attendance numbers the last time the tourney was held in Greensboro were solid but definitely down from what they were in the good ole days.
I don't quite understand this. Do we think that by having the tournament in NYC that random people off the street who have no idea what an ACC is are just going to buy tickets, fill up the place, and suddenly convert to basketball fandom? I thought the objective of tournament location would primarily be to ensure a huge turnout through ticket sales. TV is for marketing the tournament to the largest audience, and now thankfully, all the ACC tournament games are on the ESPN networks. I just don't understand the notion that we have to put the event in a really far away place where the average person generally doesn't care about ACC basketball and think that it is somehow helping the brand of the conference. I'm pretty sure if you're a sports or college basketball fan with a pulse and two eyes, you generally know about the ACC.
I'm not a marketing professional but yes, that's exactly the reason for placing things in large media markets, it magnifies the exposure. For most people on the east coast it's a heck of a lot harder (and less attractive) to get to Greensboro than it is to get to DC, NYC, Atlanta, Philly, or Charlotte. And once you get there, you're in Greensboro, which might be lovely for some, but not for most.
At what point can we stop looking at athletic conferences as businesses and start looking at them as what they should be, school conferences. I see you're point, but I feel like college athletics should be less about the business side of it and more about the fan/academic side of it. I mean if it's all about business, the kids playing should be going to work, not school. *Please don't let this spiral out to the paying kids argument*
That's what the regular season is for. Post season is all about the business. Not saying that's good or bad, just IIWII.
How is it harder for the fanbases of the majority of ACC schools to get to Greensboro, which is in close proximity to 7-8 schools and an easy drive, than it is to spend money on travel, airfare, and lodging in NYC? I'm not saying Greensboro is the greatest city in the world, but I feel like we are spending a heck of a lot of time and money trying to market this tournament to people who don't care in a far away place.
Do we really want the ACC tournament to become some stuffy corporate event in MSG where ticket prices are through the roof and the average fan can't attend? Because that's what it sounds like.
By this logic, we should move the ACC Football Championship to NYC or a bigger city too. More exposure in a larger market.
Seats looked pretty full in the Barkley Center last night.
Attendance was 17, 732 unless I'm misreading something.
same numbers reported for all the games yesterday
Fair enough. Still, there's evidence that demand for tickets is as high or higher.
http://www.newsday.com/sports/college/college-basketball/acc-tournament-at-barclays-center-turning-into-hot-ticket-1.13217328
Tickets for the early session today, which includes Duke and UNC, are 6 bucks.
People aren't going. According to what I saw last night on twitter, the stadium was 40% full.
Last night it looked like pretty much all of the upper deck was empty and the lights dimmed out so it didn't look so bad on tv.
In addition, it didn't sound like the arena was empty on TV. That's big.
They may have just done an extremely good job of miking the venue for television, but it certainly seemed like the crowd was into the later session games (which is all I watched yesterday).
Friends of mine took their Hokie son and Hoo daughter up yesterday and got tickets for $6.00 each to watch both games.
Dang, that is cheap.
Regardless of insanely low ticket prices, the atmosphere didn't come across as lacking on TV, in my opinion. That's a positive for the majority of us who aren't in the building, even if it was only 1/3 or 1/2 full.
Know where they found those tickets? My brother's trying to find them for tonight's game.
I mean, there are all kinds of $6 seats on Stubhub right now.
clicky click
NY's local team, Syracuse played last night as well. Will be interesting to see how ticket sales are with them out of it. At least with Greensboro, you have local UNC, Wake, Duke, and NCSU fans all able to leave work and get there before the 7 pm tip off times on the weekdays. With Syracuse losing last night, the ACC now has 0 teams within the state of where the Tournament is and LOLUVA is the closest team that is left in the tournament... Only a 6+ hour drive for the Wahoos.
Local Wake and Duke fans?
Football is a different animal.
Lodging in NYC alone makes the trip far more difficult to attend than Greensboro. NYC hotels aren't cheap by any standard, and add in airfare on top of that?
For a large portion of the ACC, that's just a difficult trip to make. Its great for the people who live in and around NYC, but for everyone else, its just not really a feasible location to get to. I get that the Tournament is technically a sellout, but that's because the schools themselves are required to buy up all the tickets. From what I've heard the actual attendance hasn't been that great so far this year.
Yeah, the main drawback to NYC is that lodging is very expensive. My point isn't NYC is the ideal, just that Greensboro has been outgrown and there are now better options.
They should just put a billboard outside the arena.
"You know what the Nets and Knicks try to do, want to see it done right? Step inside and watch"
not only that, but you have 4 schools' worth of fans willing to buy tickets to the whole shebang because its easy to get to and their team might actually make it through. You basically guarantee a sell out and fans from other schools are close enough that they are willing to make the drive and pick up tickets on the secondary market.
I think DC is the best possible location. It's geographically central, and it's a major city. Being that basketball is an urban/city sport, I don't think it makes sense to have it in Greensboro
FYI, the ACC-T will be back in Brooklyn next year then to Charlotte. That's all that has been announced.
It will be interesting to see if DC is still in the rotation, when it was last announced, the ACC had a team actually located in the DMV. And, of course, the B10 is for the first time in DC this year.
There's a gigantor asterisk on that 2019 Tournament in Charlotte. I wouldn't go making vacation plans anytime soon.
Same with Greensboro for Swoffords last tourney.
Just have the tourney on a yearly rotation of venues. NYC, DC, Charlotte, Atlanta. That way each location is at a major airport. It make it inconvenient for the same schools to travel larger distances every year and it also allows for the the make up of the fan bases can change based on the venue. Yes the top group will all bring fans but FSU, MIAMI, GT fans are getting the raw end of the stick of seeing their teams play all the way up in NYC. Plus NYC weather sucks during this time of year.
I think it is kind of dumb to consistently keep it in one place all the time. Sports in an entertainment business and business is about making money. Moving the tourney each year would keep the fans interest knowing that they arent going to the same place and it becoming stale after 2 or 3 years. Marketing can change each year to really build off the surroundings off the tourney. I mean as a fan spending 4 days in on location, Id like to know what is going on outside of just the games.
The games are great but easy to pull off, put some work in making it fan friendly and I will spend my money to stay around instead of jetting off as soon as my team loses. Leaving a half empty arena for the semi finals and finals.
The ACC is the best damn conference in the country. It's time to start acting like the best damn conference in the country and not like bumbling idiots. Looking at you SWOFFORD
Agree with all of this.
Having an annual location for the ACC championship in football in the geographic center makes sense, and Charlotte (1A) and DC (1B) are the logical choices for that sport.
When it comes to basketball, a rotation makes far more logistical sense because it's a five-day event. Year 1 in NYC, Year 2 in Charlotte, Year 3 in Atlanta, Year 4 in DC... wash, rinse, repeat. You hit the northern and southern outposts every four years and every other year it's closer to the geographic center.
None of this changes the fact that Greensboro sucks. Give me Charlotte, Atlanta, DC, NYC, Philly or Richmond any day of the week.
Baltimore would be a cool spot for it and the Royal Farms Arena holds 14k people. All of those other places make sense too.
Optics of putting the ACC tourney in a 14k arena would be bad.
It'd probably be closer to capacity for more sessions, but there's no way the ACC will take a chance on looking "small time" compared to its competitors. It's the same reason Richmond won't sniff the tournament for a long time, if ever.
A full Arena always looks good.
And if you don't fill up a 14k arena? I bet the ACC higher-ups think that's worse than not selling out an even bigger arena.
Personally, I don't care if it's held in a slightly smaller venue. But you have to take into account how the media would spin it and paint the league in a negative light, that's my only point.
I think the potential of bad publicity for the ACC is a huge factor in venue selection. Perception is key.
EDIT: Additionally, Royal Farms Arena lacks the modern amenities of places like Barclays Center, Verizon Center or the Spectrum Center in Charlotte. It's not just that it's a 14k seat building but other things too, like portions of the concourse that are only 6.5' wide.
Disagree here. When it comes to the relationship with the media and the ACC, our conference can seriously do no wrong, much like the SEC in football. We could try playing in a half filled Georgia Dome and the media would call it a huge success as the league has aspirations to go rock star status. We could go back to playing the game in a 12k seat arena and the media would sell it as the conference trying something cool and exciting by going back to its roots.
We could literally make the ACC Conference Champions trophy out of excrement and the media would call it forward thinking. We really can do no wrong.
Ehhhh... I'm highly skeptical that would be the narrative pushed by most. If other P5 competitors are playing in larger venues, and even the Big East playing in MSG or the A10 playing in a 20,000 seat venue in Pittsburgh, I think it's more likely to be a negative narrative attached to the ACC's hypothetical decision to play in smaller venues.
But hey, I could be completely off-base. Would certainly be interesting to see how it's perceived, but it's unlikely to happen anyway.
Read this title's post as Greenberg
Came to RABBLE RABBLE.
Read the post.
Laughed.
I was a big fan of having it here in D.C., I thought the atmosphere was nice and much more watchable games than the BIG10. Hope they bring it back.
But if you like the tradition of college sports, I have no problem with Greensboro. Guess missing the NCAA tourney has got Boeheim a little cranky.
The Coliseum is a dump with pretty much zero attraction. I don't think they can get anything right downtown.
Greensboro be like:
](https://postimg.org/image/ftjfrfpfl/))
IMO I thought Brooklyn was a joke and a half for the ACC Tournament.... I think the ACC Tournament should rotate between Greensboro, Washington DC, and Atlanta. All locations give most of the team's fans access to the tournament. Now I am bias to say I think DC should get more just because I live in NoVA and there is a huge VT alumni base here but sans Maryland, the Big 10 conference having there tournament here at the Verizon Center is a waste of time, leave it in the Indy area.
DC is one of the few places in the country that you can find fans of all sorts of teams and schools. You could probably hold the Pac-12 tourney in DC and have enough fans to fill Verizon.
im not disagreeing with you on that but I was talking about relativity of distance to the schools
You sure because I got free tickets for the night session we played in just last year and the arena was nowhere close to full.
I anyone really surprised to see that the Tuesday and Wednesday games were completely sold out? I am willing to be the Thurs, Fri, Sat games have higher attendance.
I also wanted to put in my support for the rotation between NYC, ATL, DC, and Greensboro. I know Charlotte is the bigger city, but history has it's place in the game too. I mean Augusta, GA is a complete dump, but if the PGA didn't play golf there once a year, people would lose it!
My other objection to Greensboro is that I don't think the old way of doing things in the ACC is good for VT. I want the ossified Carolina-centric approach shaken up. I think moving the offices and tournament out of that town are a step in the right direction, even if it's just to Charlotte.
the whole Carolina Mafia thing is pretty overblown. Even in basketball, where it should be the most relevant, you are looking at Louisville, Syracuse, ND and UVA as legitimate threats to UNC and Duke over the next decade. Even Miami, FSU, Pitt and VT have standing in this discussion.
That may have been a thing back in the day, but football based expansion then the basketball based 2nd expansion has weakened their power.
Maybe. But I suspect it's still very present in the ACC front office. Look no further than the Raycom deal and some of the other questionable decisions that have been made over the past decade and a half of conference expansion. And yeah, I realize that Raycom is headquartered in Charlotte, but ESPN has a pretty big presence there along with other large financial and sporting institutions. Compared to Greensboro, Charlotte's a damn metropolis with a lot more competing interests.
Almost time for us to play and I see a LOT of empty seats...
Yep, the schools are 12 hours and what, 20 hours, away respectively?
And..................they are both football schools.
Related News: Greensboro is going Savage on Jim Boeheim:
Link
The Triad just won't quit.
and on top of it all, they make you leave after the first inning?