Now that it's been determined who gets to lose to the Cavs in the Semis (sorry Almost-Bullets fans), I figured I'd start a thread for anyone else watching the playoffs. I expect the Spurs/Dubs series to be very entertaining, and as a fan with no favorite team, I'm really hoping for a Golden State/Cleveland Finals Part 3.
What do you guys and gals think so far? What have been the best headlines of the postseason? Who has been the MVP? Is Zaza a dirty player? Can the Warriors be stopped? After Sunday night, it certainly looks like Pop, Kawhi (assuming he can come back) and the Spurs can give them a serious run here in the Semis.
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I think this is just about perfect timing for this thread, as it is that time of year when I start watching the NBA. You can only watch the Conference Finals and the NBA Finals all season and still watch about a month of pro basketball.
and the teams have officially started to play defense
Defense is definitely turned up in the post season but I've always felt the knock on the NBA of no defense wasnt fair. The difference in the 3pt line from college to NBA has a huge impact on court spacing and makes for much more fluid offense in the pros. Plus its much harder to play defense because you have to defend that much more space. I think college basketball would really benefit from moving the 3pt line back even just a foot. The paint gets so congested in college and ball movement is stifled.
The NBA is suffering from lack of parity and lack of player development in college and high school (thank you AAU and 1nDone). While the conference finals and NBA finals have been great the last few years, the other 6 months are a chore.
Yeah, my comment was partially tongue in cheek. I do agree that it's a little overblown, and most of the teams in the playoffs just have had the better defensive efficiency all season long. So it makes sense that defense would be better in the post-season.
On your other point, I would love to see a deeper 3 in college
The 3-point line in college was moved back a foot 9 years ago. But, I could see benefit in moving it back again.
The NBA also plays from different rules than what you get used to at every level of basketball before it. A timeout that allows you to move the ball to halfcourt is asinine. You essentially can't play a zone defense, an "offensive set" consists of about as many pick-and-rolls as one can fathom. I'm pretty sure you could take a dribble after a foul and they'd call continuation. As someone that absolutely loves the sport I can't bring myself to watch the NBA on anything resembling a consistent basis. I watch the Stanley Cup playoffs and can't understand how anyone could enjoy watching the NBA over that.
Also worth noting, the Lottery is tonight. Below is directly from ESPN.com
*Notes
1)Boston owns the rights to swap first-round picks with Brooklyn.
2)The Lakers will send their first-round pick to the 76ers if it falls outside the top three.
3)Philadelphia owns the rights to swap picks with Sacramento inside the top 10. If the Kings' pick falls out of the top 10, it will go to the Bulls.
4)New Orleans will send its first-round pick to Sacramento if it falls outside the top three.
the lottery is fun on a bun
*ftfy
Part of me wishes the Kings win the lottery so the 76ers end up with the #1 pick. That would cause the Lakers to fall out of the Top 3 giving their selection to the 76ers, and would leave Philly with 3 of the first 5 picks.
The meltdown across the media landscape would be glorious after the hell they've given Philly the past however many years.
I support anything that prevents Lonzo Ball (really just LaVar) from being a part of the Lakers
If that plays out there will be a parade tomorrow in honor of Sam Hinkie. If the Sixers added 2 top 5 players in a draft that is seen to have a # of impact players, added to the young core they have in place, they could end up being a really damn good team.
I honestly think they're going to be a really damn good team in the near future anyway. We already saw how good Embiid can be, and with him likely getting a full load next season, things are already looking better. Then throw in Ben Simmons and suddenly they're looking very good. Now throw in that Saric looks to be pretty good, and they have Korkmaz stashed overseas until they're ready for him to round out the good role player roles. Then consider they also get LA's 1st rounder either this year or next and likely Sacramento's as well on top of their own 1st rounders, and its very likely they're going to skyrocket up the standings in the coming seasons. Between them and Boston, the Atlantic is going to be brutal for the remaining teams within a couple seasons.
Embid will never play a full season.
I do however, like what they have setting up after LBJ's eastern reign comes to a close in a few years. Might, honestly be too late.
Agree to disagree about Embiid. They're slow playing the hell out of this and I have a feeling he would have played out this season had there been a need. They were out of it, and so the team shelved him to increase their lottery odds.
And then tonight Sacramento proceeds to get the 3rd pick, which the Sixers promptly swap for the 5th.
So now the Sixers have the #3 pick this year, and two first rounders next year as the Lakers pick now belongs to them unconditionally, and two first rounders in 2019 as the Kings' pick belongs to them unconditionally, and both of those additional picks could very well end up being lottery picks.
Wow.
Yeah, The Process is real and the NBA needs to be ready. Sam Hinkie's job was sacrificed for this
I am still hoping the Celtics beat the Cavaliers. They have a chance right? Maybe as much as one of as Golden State did in the last finals after the ref's determined that the Cavaliers were allowed to get away with murder on the court.
Cavs in 5 or less. Celtics are trash. Been a horrible playoffs. Another 7 game GSW/CLE series could salvage it though. If Kawhi is hurt, no reason watching either series tbh. Both could be done in 4.
Man that's a hot take.
Celtics have to be on fire from beyond the arc for them to have a chance against the Cavs. They seem to have picked it up a bit in their series against the Wizards. Cavs haven't play good defense at all this season. It's the reason the Celtics have home-court advantage. If the Celtics can find a way to defend LeBron (ok yeah good luck), they stand a fighting chance.
The playoffs really haven't been horrible. Bucks/Raptors, Spurs/Grizzlies, Jazz/Clippers, Wizards/Celtics, and Cavs/Pacers (this ended in a sweep but every game was good), have all been good.
Yeah...five games.
I think it'll be fun to watch Kyrie and Isaiah duel it out, but I gotta agree with Wythevillian. I don't think there's any way the Celtics force 7, mayyybe you could convince me it'll be a 6 game series because of Boston home-court advantage
Resident masshole and Celtics fan chiming in here...
I'll take the Cavs in 5 at full strength. Cavs in 7 if Kyrie gets hurt. Celtics in 7 if Kyrie and KLove get hurt. Celtics in 4 if Kelly Olynyk goes super saiyin.
I mean, in reality the past few years it feels like everyone is playing for Conference Runner-up behind GSW and the Cavs. In my opinion, this isn't exactly a good thing long-term for the league. The complete lack of parity very well could be its undoing, because even the #2 and #3 team in each conference doesn't have a legitimate chance at the NBA title until these super teams are broken up.
You're saying that the team who's entire offense is built around illegal screens didn't have a chance against Cleveland because of the refs?? Are you seriously that bitter about the finals that you think the refs gifted the Cavs a championship? Refs don't blow 3-1 leads my friend.
I'm mostly just confused because I don't even recall there being any narratives that the finals were called unfairly.
Refs don't blow 3-1 leads, but they can give one of the most critical players on either team his 7th tech of the post season on a very debatable call. Draymond certainly has a history, but LeBron straight goaded him into taking one that I don't think would have been called against any other player in that series.
if i am playing a guy with that many technicals going into the series, you bet your ass I'm gonna try to get that guy to do something stupid
I'm not saying that LeBron shouldn't have pushed Draymond to the ground or that he shouldn't have pivoted back so that Draymond was in his path rather than simply walking around him or even that he shouldn't have stepped over Draymond while looking straight down at him, I'm saying that the technical foul on Draymond was not deserved in that situation
He earned that tech, and I think we can all agree he should have been suspended already in the previous series for 100% intentionally kicking crazy looking guy who's name escapes me at the moment in the groin. GSW might not have even made the final if that call had been correctly made.
Steven Adams. I do agree with you on that one
There's certainly more room for debate with the one in the finals than that one. That said, you have to draw the line with a player like Draymond, who regularly behaves in an unsportsmanlike manner. The more you allow him to get away with, the worse it gets over time. It's true of every sport, and sometimes even punishment doesn't change anything, but it's better than doing nothing.
Edit: a word
As a passive, admittedly bandwagon, Warriors fan, I disagree with you, but as a somewhat sensible human being, I totally understand your point
Sounds familiar....
#1 pick to the Celtics. To be honest, I bet you most Celtics fans are going to be satisfied with a run to the eastern conference finals and the top pick . Shame that the top few prospects are point guards, when what we need is help 3-5.
One day, a documentary will be made of the legend of Trader Danny and the fool, Prokhorov. The Brooklyn Nets are the gift that keeps on giving.
Check this NBA dotcom headline and quote from MP:
Nah, that day Danny Ainge smiled upon the Nets, as he completed perhaps the greatest fleecing since Jimmy Johnson took the Vikings for their future.
2014: James Young, nothing to see here, spent a lot of time in Maine, this is his last season in green
2016: Jaylen Brown, looks promising. He is also bringing back the short-shorts.
2017: Right to swap, yields 1st overall pick
2018: Right to swap, Brooklyn will be among worst teams again
Most of what I'm hearing is that the Celtics most likely talk Fultz #1 and then shop him for a current star player to help them win now, likely targeting someone like Paul George.
I thought Paul George was most likely going to be a Laker.
Whelp, that happened. Figured they would take 1.
Without Isaiah though, there is no way in hell you could have convinced me that they would take a single game
Makes you wonder if the Cavs mentally took their foot off the gas a bit to get ready for the Finals, thinking the Cs were dead and buried with Isaiah being out.
This wouldn't surprise me. However, it would surprise me, now that the Cavs and Lebron have given up one game, if they don't come out and win the next two by 25+
Absolutely, I fully expect the C's to be absolutely throttled the next two games. The Cavs (and really, the GSW do this as well) have made a habit out of doing just enough to get by in the playoffs when they know they have the advantage over the years, only to completely obliterate teams when they decide to go for it. The last 3 years has really just been about 2 teams ensuring they get to the NBA Finals in a healthy and rested state.
Honestly, I would think about trading him with Fultz coming to town.
Interesting to realize that the Celtics might be better off without IT at this point. He's such a liability on defense that it almost makes more sense to sit him down and let a lineup like what we saw be successful last night get more time on the floor together.
So....
LeBron with 4 fouls in the 1st half, Celtics up by double digits, and a chance to tie the series going back to Boston.
Not so fast...
Was it just me or was that game painful to watch? Seemed like there was major contact on both sides that would go unnoticed only to have the whistle blown for phantom fouls.
Note: I'm pretty sure all of Lebron's four fouls were legit though. He was pressing too hard to make something happen. Looked much more in control 2nd half even though he had a horrible missed dunk that was cringe worthy.
Yes that game was terribly inconsistent with foul calls.
I did have a laugh at that missed dunk, just because his cherry picking finally came back to bite him. He looked much like his normal self in the 2nd half. Combine that with a playoff high from Kyrie, Kevin Loves ridiculous 20 rebound performance, and 75% from the field in the 2nd half, and I find some hope in the fact the Celtics kept it as close as they did.
I'm saying Cavs in 6.
I guess the playoff can actually start now. Hope the series is great.
Alright boys and girls. We knew this was coming since October.
Here's to a fantastic Finals.
I know it isn't sustainable, but the pace of this quarter has been incredible. I feel like I'm watching an NHL game with how quickly it's up and down the court.
I know everybody hates how stacked GS and CLE are, but this is some fantastic basketball.
Also, I'm drunk on a work night.
So what's the betting like for which game green decides to nut kick someone?
Edit I just saw a article on Adam silver saying the one and done rule isn't helping anyone and needs to change I'm very intrigued on how he thinks it needs to change.
GS is just too good. KD makes them a juggernaut.
I loved the joke that KD tried to sign with the 1992 Dream Team before deciding on GS. No way this team stays together much longer once contracts are up. Max deals will be required to keep Steph, Klay, and KD and Draymond could probably fetch a hell of deal on the open market.
Not if they all take less to keep it together. KD is already saying he's planning to do just that
and Klay and Draymond are on for 2 and 3 more seasons, respectively. There's no way they let Curry go this year, so he'll likely get the absolute max. The biggest puzzle pieces this offseason, in my opinion will be Iggy and Livingston. I could see one of the two heading out this year, but they're both on the wrong side of 30 so maybe they're willing to make less to chase more rings like David West
I've read they might be planning to use Bird rights on at least Iggy (though I might be mistaken there)
It's honestly a joke for basketball that a team broke the wins record and then replaced Harrison Barnes with Kevin Durant in the offseason without losing any of their integral pieces in the process. At least it makes for good finals matchups I guess, but it essentially made for the least enjoyable NBA playoffs in recent memory leading up to the finals. Nobody stood a chance, and the only team that had a little shot in the West lost their best player before the series WCF started.
That said, I don't believe the Cavs are out of it, the first few games of the last finals were mostly blowouts and weird games. Plus, the best player in the world beyond a shadow of a doubt, plays for Cleveland. But he (nor any single player in history) can beat this Warriors team alone. He'll need Love/Kyrie to contribute some big performances with strong role player performances from Smith/Shumpert/etc.
Total viewership for the Playoffs has been up about 4% this year, so even though the grand perception is that this GSW/Cleveland thing is bad for the NBA, it's not.
It's not bad for the NBA making money, it's bad for me (and lots of other people) caring about the lead up to the finals. Even in the early days of the Heat, the playoffs in both conferences were fantastic, and there were no guarantees.
Meh, the NBA is a league that thrives on dominant teams. Were Michael Jordan's Bulls teams bad for fans? Was the Bird/Magic rivalry bad for fans? Were all of Kobe's championship teams bad for the fans? Hypothetical questions obviously, but I think it's overblown how boring these playoffs have been (especially given the uptick in ratings).
We just need to step back and appreciate that we're currently witnessing one of NBA history's greatest rivalries, and instead of wishing it would be broken up, enjoy it while it lasts.
I agree with all of it but my selfish preference would have been for KD to stay on OKC so it would have been a fantastic 3 way race.
It would not have been a "3-way race". Golden State handled the Thunder every year. KD and Westbrook were a poor match and couldn't play well off each other. Golden State always had a better team dynamic
You seem to forget OKC led 3-1 last year.
Exactly and its not like they couldn't add some pieces to improve.
I think the issue is that none of the other series seem competitive. Recently (and this year especially) we're seeing less game 7's and less overtime playoff games than ever before:
I'm not saying that this has been the least competitive playoffs in NBA history, nor am I suggesting that 'super teams' are ruining the NBA, but I do believe that the 2017 playoffs are, without a doubt, less competitive than those of previous seasons.
If the finals become a battle, then that could change everything, but that is looking unlikely at the moment.
I'll concede that the competitiveness of the early rounds are lacking this year. However, I stand by that pretty much being how it's always been
Over the stretch of 6 titles (24 Playoff series) that MJ won, he played in two Game 7s total.
Kobe also played in only two Game 7s total in 5 Finals trips between '99-'08. Including one Championship where they lost only one game during the entire playoffs.
The Warriors are historically great, but they're not some unheard-of force. There's just a new one every 10-12 years. Look out for Boston and Philly to push to be the next if they can keep up managing intelligently
Edit: I misinterpreted your point. Gonna leave this stuff up here, but it's not really countering anything you said very well
2nd Edit: Since it's Friday, I wasted some time looking up Game 7 stats and since the '84 Playoffs, the number of Game 7s breaks down like this:
0 Game 7s - 4 Times
1 Game 7 - 6 Times
2 Game 7s - 10 Times
3 Game 7s - 7 Times
4 Game 7s - 4 Times
5 Game 7s - 3 Times
Out of 15 total series each season, the most game 7s we've seen EVER is 5.
Important to note that the playoffs expanded to 16 teams in '84.
Also, prior to '03, the first round was best of 5, and there have been 10 seasons since with 3 or more game sevens.
The way I see it other players just need to get better to make it competitive, it's all on them. You can't say Golden State really stacked their team in free agency (cough cough Cavs), they drafted three of their four best players and brought in KD because he wanted to be there.
Yup. The Spurs and the Mavs are pretty much really the only teams to have won it all somewhat-organically in the past 20+ years
I wonder how much the Salary Cap is actually hurting parity in the NBA. If you were to allow players like KD, LeBron, Steph, etc to all maximize their market demand through contracts, I wonder if these kind of super teams would be allowed to be constructed? Yes, you may be able to have teams like the Lakers, Knicks, Celtics, Bulls, and Sixers who are in basketball hotbeds essentially buy teams annually, but I doubt you'd see legitimate All-Star rosters exist like you do now, and you'd at least see the talent on the top end of the scale spread out a bit more than it is now.
The cap works in leagues like the NHL and NFL where the rosters are so large that you really can't load up without creating a significant weakness on your own roster. The NBA doesn't have that problem.
Yes. See: European soccer specifically the likes of Spain, Germany and France. It wouldn't help if NBA didn't have a salary cap. You might see one or two other teams pop up, but the mid to bottom of the league would have zero chance, especially in the future if they were limited by cash flow and didn't have the chance to hit on lottery picks. It's actually a decent conversation to have if you were to develop academies like soccer clubs do and produce "home grown" talent.
I say keep the overall salary cap and get rid of max contracts
This a thousand times over. Don't remove the total spending cap, just artificial depression of what an individual is allowed.
This exactly. I don't watch the NBA at all (couldn't tell you the last time I watched a game by my choice) but I was shocked when I heard a few years back that they had "max contracts" of only 1/4 to 1/3 of the total salary cap, considering the issues they've been having with the recent wave of "super teams".
Seems fairly obvious that eliminating this cap on player compensation would go a decent way towards leveling the paying field.
I think that the games that didn't include the cavs and warriors prior to the finals were pretty entertaining games. and the warriors are a team even if you hate them theyre fun to watch the way they share the ball its almost like watching the rams when kurt was at the helm. I hated them I was never a kurt warner fan but man were they fun to watch. and LeBron.... you either watch him to see him fail or you watch him to see him triumph. so even with all the predictability of the who was going to the finals the on the court product was still pretty good to watch.
edit: despite some of the WORST referring I have ever seen in my life.
Its not a joke. Most people are buying into this narrative that Golden State is buying championships in some way. In truth, the core of this team was built the way everybody wants teams to be built, through the draft. KD was icing.
Thank You!
Pretty boy Prince James is the one buying championships, this is the first time in 6 years that his team hasn't had the most talented core group on paper and they're still second.
James joined a team that did not make the playoffs. Durant joined a team that won 73 regular season games. Previously James joined a Heat team that was an 8 seed. There were no guarantees that either team move of James' would succeed. They succeeded largely because of him. Durant was guaranteed a trip to the NBA Finals when he joined GS. With that said, I believe Durant will play well and earn Finals MVP.
Actually the Heat were a 5 seed the year before adding James and Bosh. Also Wade led the Heat to a title and was finals MVP a few years earlier.
I stand corrected, they were the 5 seed (14 games behind Cavs) and lost in first round 4 games to 1. They had a different coach and were nowhere near the team that won the title.
Kevin. Durant.
Dude was on a mission last night
You take a team that probably should have won it last season. Add the second best player and lose no one of consequence. Not a chance Cleveland wins this.
lets also not forget last year the Cavs were blown out in games 1 & 2 by 15 and 33 points respectively and still came back to win it all.
True, but this Golden State team with Durant is a different animal. James is the best bball player in the world right now and one of the best players ever, but this GS team is possibly the best team ever assembled. I was troubled initially that a record winning 73 win team added the 2nd best player in the game (seems unfair), but in reality they had to. If they didn't they would have lost to James and the Cavs again.
Golden state will most likely win but I have a hard time betting against LBJ
It's ridiculous to me that there is still this narrative (see post a few above this one) that James is trying to "buy" championships.
If its not blatantly obvious, the only way to win it all in the NBA right now is to assemble a team with a minimum of 3 superstars. Perhaps Lebron helped to get that trend started (although, really the Celtics did it first when they went Pierce, Garnett, Allen). The fact remains that the guy is so good he has more leverage than perhaps any other NBA player ever except for MJ when it comes to some of these roster decisions.
Unless you have several monster players, you simply have no chance to win the championship. That's not Lebron's fault.
Cleveland was so awful that they were able to draft Irving who has lived up to the hype, they made a trade for Love (although I'm not sure they are that much better than just having a younger Wiggins on that team), and signed Lebron in FA. They didn't do anything wrong in that team building approach.
That narrative is such an illogical mess. Truly unbelievable that people still believe that, but it's just one of those things where people will let hate blind them forever, sports fans can be very stubborn. As much as Cowherd can be the worst, he had a pretty good segment where he essentially broke down how every other great player had great players fall in their lap, but Lebron was so good, so quickly that it made it impossible for the Cavs to aquire another good player naturally.
Also, as stated above, when he joined the Heat, the previous season they were a 5 seed (14 games behind James' Cavs) and lost in the first round of the playoffs, and Wade was already there. The Cavs weren't even a playoff team the year before James returned, and Kyrie was already there.
So, let's talk about Nick Wright. I am a big LBJ guy, but I look like an LeBron hater compared to how much Wright loves him.
FS1 really has probably the biggest LeBron hater (Bayless) and his biggest fan (Wright) on their payroll.
Unfortunately, measured and reasonable opinions just aren't lucrative. If your takes aren't scorching hot, there's no market for them.
Fox is terrible. Deserve the poor ratings they get.
Please Dell, get Steph to Charlotte. That would make the East so much more fun and the Warriors wouldn't be as dominant but still have enough to win titles.
He's staying in Golden State though unless something shocking happens, and I can easily see them taking the next 3-4 titles.
Well this is exciting. /s
While they haven't been particularly close at the end, it's still very good TV. Two of the top 3 players to ever play the game. Two other future HOFers (Steph & Kyrie) and plenty of more All Stars. Love it.
Eh. I don't know. I know that these guys are gonna go down as some of the best ever, but I'd so much rather watch them duke it out on separate teams instead of these All Star lineups. It's good basketball yes, but it's not very exciting or dramatic at the end of the day.
GS in 5.
Hoping these finals get more exciting though
Is this where we come to lol at Lebron? Can't even buy the best team anymore...
Are we really at this point still? Lebron went to Cavs when they didn't even make the playoffs the year before with Kyrie. Their big purchase/trade was Kevin Love, who has absolutely NOT been a monster in the playoffs for them, he was MIA for most of last years finals.
The Warriors, however, broke the Bulls wins record AND THEN REPLACED HARRISON BARNES WITH KEVIN DURANT.
Yeah, I know... the gall of the guy to realize all the modern dominant teams had multiple stars (Jordan/Pippen/Rodman, Kobe/Shaq/Horry, Duncan/Parker/Ginobli, Pierce/Allen/Garnett) and that he needed to get those kinds of players to legitimately compete. The problem was, the Cavs became too good by just drafting Lebron that it wasn't really possible to get those guys together, so he had to make it happen on his own, and getting big free agents to sign up to come to Cleveland wasn't really an option.
But hey, yeah, lets totally rip on the guy for putting himself in a position that the ones he's compared to had from the start of their careers.
This I agree with completely.
All of that is fine and good, but can I still rip on him for whining incessantly when a call doesn't go his way (when he has a lot of calls go his way anyway)?
Dude, you're the best player in the league, quit your whining and play ball.
Oh absolutely. But this seems to be the age of coddling where the best bitch and moan about everything whenever they're not getting the benefit of every call that is made. Tom Brady, Sidney Crosby, and dear god, pretty much every baseball and soccer player out there falls under this umbrella.
Preach.
He's not the first (or last) athlete to complain about everything. Jordan was just as bad about this, but he gets no flack for it.
I'm not going to sit here and argue that Jordan did no such thing, but I watched him play and don't remember anything close to LBJ's level of whining.
Jordan definitely did. Kobe did it. The superstars in any sport just do it.
Hell, even a guy like Tim Duncan, for his greatest, constantly had that "What? Me foul?" look on his face all the time.
Granted Jordan just played in a different era where hand checking was allowed. Now you really can't fault a guy for working any advantage he can.
For a minute I thought this crossed over into the NHL playoffs thread...
Kinda lost me at Horry being a star since the dude never even made one all-star team. I don't blame LeBron for wanting to play with more talented players but I do feel like he influenced a lot of the personnel moves in his first go-round with Cleveland that complicated the situation. Also a team doesn't have to have a top pick every year to get productive players but the Cavs did an unbelievably poor job between the draft and trades. I can't argue against LeBron's talent but I do think his influence on the front office during his time in both Cleveland and Miami has contributed to issues.
I thought last night's game was really entertaining, not sure what everyone else was watching unless you're just checking the final score or tuning in just for the 4th. The series isn't even close to over yet. Anyone remember last year? The first two games were even bigger blowouts by GSW and then the series went 7.
Yeah, unless Curry gets hurt and can barely play again like last year, this series is over. And even then, Durant is likely enough to still roll the Cavs.
This narrative got so blown up after they lost. The extent of the injury was gravely exaggerated. They choked, the Cavs were the tougher team down the stretch and outplayed them. Move on.
Curry got hurt before the Finals and still averaged 25.8 ppg over the last 5 games last year.
Last year's finals hinged more on Draymond's suspension than Curry's injury. He was clearly not 100%, but he was definitely more than "can barely play".
Has everyone seen the video of how Steph's "amazing one on one drive" on Lebron was 100% caused by him double dribbling? He grabs the ball with both hands, Lebron steps forward into position to defend a shot (which is what Steph should have been force to take, or pass) and then Steph puts the ball down and dribbles to the basket.
After I saw this I watched the live replay and think this angle is just an optical illusion. LeBron didn't even question it after the layup went in. He whines like a baby after the wind blows his jersey, so had Curry really double dribbled and that's what made LeBron jump, then he would have pouted like he always does when a call doesn't go his way. That's science.
Well it's very clear he double dribbled, and Lebron's reaction suggests strongly that he saw him pick up his dribble.
I honestly can't tell if you're being facetious, but it's clearly a double dribble. You also seem very biased against Lebron so I don't even really know how to respond to your last two sentences.
I'm not being facetious at all. I said I think it's an optical illusion and I'm giving my reasoning why I suspect that. And LeBron's actions post play look like a guy who knows he just got beat. I haven't seen another angle that clearly shows a double dribble. LeBron is known for complaining to the refs, don't act like he's not. Had he saw the double dribble, there is NO CHANCE he wouldn't have been in the refs ear.
How many angles would you need to believe that he did grab the ball with both hands.
One more from any other angle that doesn't pause at the moment in question. If you have it, please share.
1) There is clear video evidence. You're reaching so hard to make this work.
2) That's a common crossover move for advanced dribblers (it's almost always a carry, but that doesn't matter), usually your other hand would never touch the ball, but the movement is common enough that Lebron could have thought he executed it properly and instead of giving up on a play (not his style, or any finals-level professional, he continued defending). To further clarify, the move is designed to make you think you're about to pull up and shoot, before taking another dribble, so his defensive reaction makes sense for both identifying the double dribble and/or falling for the crossover, which in this case, was executed illegally.
source: I've had the fortune (and misfortune) of playing against a lot of talented guards in my life, this move has frozen more high school basketball players' feet than any blizzard.
edit: Reason 3) Lebron is immensely, immensely prideful, as is any all time great player, there's a strong chance even with an illegal dribble, he thinks he's good enough to guard Steph one on one and stop him anyway.
I'm saying I think this particular angle is an optical illusion and the pause doesn't help the matters. Until I see a second angle with "definitive" proof, then I'll stand by this claim.
On the subject of that pride, I've watched LeBron complain up and down the court for the past whatever it's been Finals on missed layups, push offs, getting stripped whatever it is whenever he's felt wronged. He didn't do that after the play last night. Is it so unreasonable to think that in a game of that magnitude, down whatever they were at the time, that if Steph had in fact double dribbled and LeBron got burned by it that he wouldn't have made a scene to the officials? That's a reasonable stance to have.
1) It's a double dribble, but it would have been hard to call. Definitely Bam-Bam.
2) Pointing out LB not complaining after the play is fairly strong circumstantial evidence that I would allow in my courtroom.
3) I don't know which offers the greatest advantage, the double dribble or traveling. However, picking up your dribble and then taking steps, then dribbling again would be really, really good cheating.
4) None of this matters because Warriors in 5, maybe 4 if they don't go to sleep for a game.
I think it's a double dribble but I also say who cares? In live action, there is no way in hell that could have been called. Freeze it, and yeah, obviously he touched the ball with both hands, but it was for a fraction of a second. LeBron travels every time he drives to the hoop and it doesn't get called. For the record though, I don't think that should get called either.
This did happen so fast, and it's totally understandable to go uncalled. That said, it matters because all the videos were talking about how Curry cooked Lebron, BUT a double dribble is an extremely unfair advantage while defending one on one, I was never insinuating it had any impact on the game beyond that.
That said I feel the need to point this out because of the number of comments I've seen comparing it to traveling, a travel and a double dribble are NOT equals. Taking an extra step (or even two in the NBA) on your way to the rim doesn't create the type of advantage a double dribble does. If someone takes an extra step to the rim, sure it's an advantage in getting through traffic, but you would be defending them the same way regardless of if they took one more dribble or not. A double dribble would cause the defender to flatten out and defend a stationary player, going from "not being able to move" to "I can now dribble again" would be a vastly different situation to a travel. I'm telling you if double dribbling was allowed in the NBA like carrying/traveling are, literally nobody would be able to defend Kyrie, Wall, etc. The advantage that brings would ruin basketball forever, it would literally just be AND1 mixtape tour.
That said, a big man traveling under the basket is a frustrating advantage, more significant than an attacking player taking an extra step on his way to the rim for sure, but still not as significant an advantage as picking up your dribble and being able to dribble again would.
We might have to agree to disagree. Traveling, even on the way to a break away transition dunk, is never called in the NBA consistently and it is one of the reason I stopped watching much of the NBA. The referees should call all aspects of the game.
I think it's totally fair of you to desire them to call all aspects of the game correctly. It's legitimately weird that the highest level of a sport just ignores multiple rules of the game, most people have just adjusted to it over time I guess.
That said, I will never agree with anyone that a travel and double dribble are equivalent transgressions. A double dribble is a vastly superior advantage to the ball handler, and disadvantage to the defender than a travel.
Why wouldn't the basis of your argument that a double dribble causes a player to defend differently not apply to a travel? If you are guarding a player driving to the basket and they pick up their dribble, you would now expect them to have to shoot without traveling. That seems just as critical if you are timing your jump to contest the shot. Or if you're defending a player and he picks up his dribble you guard their passing options based on their court position and pivot. Players are constantly allowed to travel to make space during tough defense or traps.
No not really, you can legally take two steps after you pick up your dribble without it being a travel. Adding another step is insignificant in the heat of the moment.
I am willing to bet every penny that I own, that every NBA player would tell you a double dribble is harder to defend than a travel. Every single player in the NBA (or even anyone who played pick up consistently as a kid) grew up defending people traveling, but double dribbling (something usually done in embarrassing fashion by someone who isn't good or unfamiliar with the game) is not something you defend on a regular basis. Picking up your dribble and then resuming dribbling is a greater deviation from the game of basketball than an extra step on a travel.
I don't disagree that it would have a larger effect because if nothing else, like you said, traveling has been so widely accepted. However, I would still take that bet in a heartbeat. Players and former players have said far, far dumber things, including a finalist who thinks that Earth is flat.
ugh this level of ignorance is just annoying
He obviously didn't go to Duke to play school.
You're very passionate about defending the honor of Lebron. Are you perhaps Lebron James himself?
I am not even sure what a double dribble is anymore. Every "susperstar" seems to get away with palming, traveling and double dribbling multiple times a game with no calls. It is just the way of the the nba now...
yep. these days the top guards seem to carry the ball (hand on bottom half of the ball) on 75% of dribbles when trying to get around screens or simply when backing down a defender.
If you're gonna slow down the video and nit-pick, you might also want to highlight the hand check/reach-in at 0:06 or the shoulder grab at 0:17, both of which could be argued impeded Curry's progress to the rim.
Or you could just sit back and watch two of the best to ever play the game do what they do best.
Wow. What a game.
I think this game shows the extent of the potential for the Cavs. Kyrie and LeBron both put up 40 points. Kevin Love was all over the boards. They had the Warriors in foul trouble. They were at home. They were getting the foul calls. The Warriors committed 17 turnovers.
But somehow the Warriors still pulled it out. I really think this has about an 85% chance of being a sweep and Golden State going 16-0 in the playoffs. That's unreal.
Can't do it every night and wouldn't get those calls away from home. Still believe the gap between these two teams is pretty large. Cavs played as well as they could. Woulda been Kyrie's game of his career had he finished it off with a win. He was outstanding tonight. Got what they could from Korver. JR was hitting. Draymond was being weak. Warriors were hitting shots, but went cold at the wrong time in the fourth. It was all there for them. Demoralizing really. I don't see how they rebound there. Just don't think the mental toughness is there anymore. LeBron will have to do it all himself in Game 4 and just won't be enough.
Side note: Draymond is my least favorite player in the NBA. I hope he wants all the money he can get to go be the star in some place like Orlando and we never hear from him again. Most overrated player in the league by far.
I think the gap is about as large as the difference between KD and KL. Switch them and the team results would flip flop in my opinion. Great game last night though.
Hate on him all you want, but I don't see him as being overrated. He's not going to put up huge numbers but he is going to do the dirty work (jab intended) and be the "hype-man" so to speak.
Woah there. Draymond isn't a perennial All Star, All NBA and DPOY candidate for nothing. Golden State is GOLDEN STATE and the Lineup of Death is the Lineup of Death because he is (perhaps uniquely) suited as an all-world defensive wrecker.
Didn't watch but saw major struggles from the 3pt line in the box score. 27% the last 2 games. Kyrie and Love go combined 1/14. Pretty crazy to think they would even have a chance seeing that.
By the box score alone I have no idea how the Cavs were in the game other than getting 7 more shots. Watching though it felt like they were in good position even if they couldn't distance themselves from the Warriors. It took until late in the 4th but the Cavs seemed to tire and the Warriors made all the plays they had to make
The warriors had a rough third and fourth quarter, literally as they were getting shoved around by the Cavs with no calls. The technical foul on Green I guess was a make up for last year as the Cav's were doing worse on most plays.
I was really starting to wonder if the Warriors were going to be allowed to win in Cleveland.
The Kardashian curse is at work here. Tristan Thompson has 11 rebounds in three games after averaging almost 10 a game during the regular season.
Is defensive play just dead in the NBA? I miss the Bulls from the 90's.
The answer is "yes".
A combination of rules changes & analytics have changed the game drastically since the 90s and made great defense incredibly difficult.
Smart NBA writers like Zach Lowe talk about this fairly frequently - because the spacing on the floor is so much greater in today's game and the average NBA player is a much better 3-point shooter, the ground defenses have to cover is much more than in the days of Jordan.
Personally, I find today's game much more exciting than that of the 90s. The best teams in the NBA today put a much higher premium on ball movement to create high percentage shots. I prefer that to the "clear out, watch one player work" offenses of the 90s.
Watching wide open three's last night was embarrassing.
Upvote for Zach Lowe.
It's not that defending is dead. It's that defending is VERY VERY DIFFERENT. Iso ball defense is very marginalized by being able to passably defend multiple positions warranted by switching picks.
Agree.
Plus, positions themselves have evolved. You very rarely had centers who could handle the rock a little bit and shoot 3s back in the day, but now it's fairly commonplace.
Yup, there are so few true Centers in the league these days. The whole league has basically shifted over to Stretch 5s and Point Forwards
We over here started to adopt a European style of play, and I notice that it had two huge effects on the game:
1) Big men whose best game is outside (following the patterns of 6'11" Toni Kukoc, 6'10" Peja Stojakovic, 7' Dirk Nowitzki, 7'3" Kristaps Porzingis).
2) Worst flopping ever, so much so that they had to start fining for it.
So at this point the question is Warriors in 4 or 5?
4.
I think Lebron is tired, and the Cavs simply can't compete when he isn't on the floor. KD also has the look of a man that will not be denied right now.
Would that make it the first ever sweep of playoffs and finals? 16-0?
yup, Shaq and Kobe's '01 Lakers hold the best record in a single postseason currently at 15-1
16-0 in the playoffs a year after winning 73 in the regular season
They're making a very strong case for being the greatest team of all time
They really are. Personally, I don't think there's much debate there
Side note: The Wiki article for longest NBA streaks currently predicts the Warriors to lose game 4, 103-88, yet still has their streak at 16 games.
I think they have to be the greatest team of this time. The Celtics, Lakers, and Sixers of the 70-80's might disagree with you. The Jordan teams might also object.
I am not sure their can be a greatest team/player of all time. The game changes too much.
Its just crazy. The Warriors and Cavs are very clearly the best 2 teams in the league. The gap between them and everyone else is enormous. But then you get to the finals, and it becomes clear that the gap between the Warriors and the Cavs is pretty big as well. The Warriors are just so much better than everyone else that I don't really legitimately see how, barring injury, anyone else has a legitimate chance as long as that team remains intact.
When LeBron leaves for LA to play with Paul George and Russell Westbrook in 2018-2019, I'd bet on them
Personally I can't see Westbrook fitting into that equation. Can you imagine what it could turn into with spotlight that comes with the Lakers, and Magic, and the Buss family (and if Lonzo Ball also was on the team)? It would have to be broadcast on Bravo or E!
I could see Westbrook and Lebron working OK together.
Lebron is not a selfish player really, and could work fine without having the ball all the time. And at that point in his career, he would just be looking to add another ring or two.
And if he was able to save energy on offense to spend some more on defense, look out. Lebron is an elite defender, but no one ever seems to talk about it.
I didn't consider Lebron going to the Lakers but that would be fun to watch. If he went to LA, I figured it would be with the Clippers so he could play with Chris Paul.
LeBron with the Clippers would be hilarious, as it would drive the Lakers and their management up a f'n wall. The Lakers would immediately become the afterthought team in that city while LeBron was there.
Just for the hottakes, I'd love to see it happen
Slight off topic but still basketball. Olympics just introduced 3-on-3 basketball for the 2020 Tokyo games. I am very much looking forward to that.
Who you got for the US? Thinking you might have to pass on Steph cause he isn't exactly a defensive stalwart
Bron - KD - Wall?
Based on the rules I just looked up (2 pointers count 1 and 3s count 2) I think you'd want to pick better perimeter shooters. For that reason I'd say Steph would be better than Wall
Haha, alright, then lets try a 'fuck it' roster.
Steph-Kemba Walker-Anthony Davis
2 PGs who can take anyone 1-on-1 and are deadly from deep paired with a guy who can clean up anything and everything down low.
All I know is that it's going to be extremely fast paced and interesting to watch. Games are 10 minutes, half court only, 12 second shot clock, and on changes of possession you have to take the ball behind the 3 point line.
Give me Hardin - KD - Westbrook
I want us to send guys from the parks in Harlem. 1) It would make a mockery of the Olympics (which already suck) and 2) watching those guys go AND1 mixtape on some 5'10" Japanese dude would be fantastic.
LeBron, KD, Kawhi
I'll take Kawhi, AD, and Klay Thompson. All three can shoot, all three are shutdown defenders.
AD No Foul? He played on the PR national team
Give me Kristaps, Kawhi, and KD
So... here we are.
A 3-1 lead. Cavs seemed to be dominant tonight. Will it continue in Oakland or are the Warriors going to finally get to win the title on their home court?
I can't imagine the Cavs are going to keep shooting over 50% from 3 on the road so short of an injury I can't imagine GS not winning one more.
Tonight seemed like the perfect storm for the Cavs to win; Warriors went cold, Cavs shot lights out, too many defensive miscues for the Warriors, Cavs actually kept the defensive intensity up for 48 minutes, and I thought the refs were way too involved/inconsistent. Given all this the Warriors still scored 120+. I can't imagine the Cavs being able to keep this up for 3 more games.
Imagine if the Cavs didn't give away game 3. 2-2 series going back west would have been fun.
Now I could see the Cavs squeezing out 1 more to force game 6 but that feels like the ceiling right now.
Best tweet of the finals:
Somebody post this to lesabre.
Wow! Guess that sorta kills all that talk of "GTE" for the Warriors.
Unless you want to argue Cleveland as the 2ndGTE.
Why? I happen to think the whole comparing teams from different eras is asinine but no team has gone undefeated through the entire playoffs so I don't see how a single loss in a game where the opposing team set the record for made 3s would automatically disqualify them.
If Cleveland can steal one tonight the mounting pressure on Golden State will get interesting.
It's funny to me how people still give Lebron a hard time about trying to join or create a super team, and then give Kevin Durant a free pass.
I love Durant, but let's be serious.
No one is giving KD a free pass. Durant joined a team that was created through the draft. GM LeBron created his championship teams on his own.
Edit: I enjoy pulling against LeBron, but he's done it all within the rules, and I don't have a problem with that
KD joined a team that almost won the championship two years running, won a record 73 games, had championship coach and players, and the reigning two-time league MVP. This team was guaranteed to win a championship. To me that is taking the easy path. [Edit: Golden State was 1st in West prior to Durant]
LeBron joined a team that with Kyrie Irving had never been to the playoffs, and then added Kevin Love who had never been to the playoffs. And had a rookie NBA coach in David Blatt. There was no guarantee this team would be winning a championship. [Edit: Cleveland was 10th in East prior to James]
^^^^Here's KD's 'Free Pass'
Also, any team with one of the two greatest basketball players of all time and two other all-stars on it is a championship caliber team regardless of what they did the year before.
Wait a tic-I thought Irving and the Cavs went to the playoffs 1 of the years James was in Miami? Granted they got trounced immediately in the 1st round.
Nope. Kyrie's first year was 2011-2012.
2011-2012 Cavs went 21-45 (13th in East)
2012-2013 Cavs went 24-48 (13th in East)
2013-2014 Cavs went 33-49 (10th in East)
James joined then...
2014-2015 Cavs went 53-29 (2nd in East) Lost NBA Finals 2-4 to Golden State
2015-2016 Cavs went 57-25 (1st in East) Won NBA Finals 4-3 over Golden State
2016-2017 Cavs went 51-31 (2nd in East) Lost NBA Finals 1-4 to Golden State
Can we talk about the blooming David West/Tristan Thompson romance? Khloe can't be happy
JR out here doing JR things
Probably the most entertaining 4-1 series I've ever watched. Can't wait to see what LeBron orchestrates this off-season to try to beat the Dubs next year
Sum' bitch. I put some money down on Warriors moneyline and the over in a parlay, went to check my winnings right after the game to find out I accidentally took the Warriors and the under.
Also put some on the Warriors to beat the spread..woulda had it if Steph hadn't chucked up that 3 at the end.
Worst season ever in the history of professional sports. I've been a huge NBA guy for years and I can't believe I actually tuned into every game of the finals this year. There was literally one good series and it was Washington/Boston and either team would've gotten destroyed by Golden State, much less how the Cleveland series went. I don't know one person who was satisfied with that finals. Everyone wants to talk about how much they love this series: this series sucks. Every game of the series was decided by double digits except game 3 and it was fairly obvious which team was going to win before the 4th qtr ever started. Hope KD is satisfied with a ring that only took teaming up with 3 other all stars to knock out the best player ever in LeBron. College basketball has officially become the best basketball to watch and march madness wasn't even that good this year, but was still 50 times more entertaining than that joke of a postseason. End of rant. Had to get that off my chest.
Does this call for a derp yell?
I read some of the journalists predicted Boston would have done better than the Cavaliers against the Warriors. Boston actually plays defense.
ESPN has an article out today, and it really puts an eye opening perspective of just how bad a state the NBA is in. I mean, don't get me wrong, having a superteam sells tickets and makes the NBA a lot of marketing dollars off that team, but in this article you have team executives within the league openly talking about how its not worth chasing a championship nowadays because there's no way you can compete. So the expectation going forward is that, outside of small markets like Charlotte and Minnesota who have to maximize potential to sell tickets and make money, and outside of markets like Houston, San Antonio, and Boston who already have the kind of superstar player you would look to collect by tanking, you're going to see vast swaths of the league position themselves to sell out for future roster building because they know there's no chance they can compete against the likes of Golden State. And this isn't ESPN conjecture, the executives are openly admitting it.
Certainly seems like we're looking at a league where the gap between the good and bad is only going to grow, which just can't be good for the overall health of the league.
This is such garbage. I'm a hawks fan and like LeBron, steph, kd, etc. What I'm trying to say is that I'm impartial.
Steph was the 7th pick. Klay was the 11th pick. Draymond was a 2nd rounder - EVERY team passed on him. These 3 players plus a well put together supporting cast and bench won a championship then won a record 73 games the next year. If other teams want to compete they need to scout, draft, and develop their players better. Hire a good smart coach who the players like and respect. Don't give out bad contracts.
Golden state built this team through the draft. Yes, they then became an attractive destination for Durant and thus became almost unbeatable this year, but that doesn't change the fact that any other team can draft and develop players like steph, Klay, and Draymond. These nba executives should whine less and do their jobs better.
While I largely agree with you, I do think it is more difficult than ever before for small market teams to compete, just because star players don't seem interested in playing for small markets. Even if you do draft/develop like the Warriors did, you have to keep your players from leaving during free agency.
Notice when each of GS's 'Big 3' signed their second contract, and when they made their first all-star appearance:
Neither Curry, Klay nor Draymond had a single all-star season before the their rookie contract was up. If they had, who knows if GS could afford to keep them all, or if they would even want to stay with the Warriors. While I 100% acknowledge that this was a scenario where coaching and management worked together perfectly, one must admit that the Warriors got pretty lucky that each of their 'big 3' matured immediately after their second contract, and not before.
Excellent points, thank you. I didn't intend to make it seem like a simple process, in fact it's extremely difficult and like you said involves some luck.
My point is that nba execs should stop crying foul and saying no one can compete. Warriors will have to choose klay or draymond in 2 years, LeBron will be aging (still probably very good), spurs will be without manu and maybe Parker. Quit complaining and do your job.
Yeah, screw that guy for doing what was best for his career!
Seriously, I hate when people say this. I would have no problem leaving my current employer for a competitor in a cool new city that offered me a better opportunity.
Especially when your main rival did the exact same thing years earlier and you see the success it had.
LMAO. Not like LeBron would stoop to something like this, chasing rings.
All KD did was pull a LeBron, he just found a better landing spot.
I think, again, the point is that KD is not getting any blowback from that decision. And I am not saying that he should, either.
Its just interesting how many people cite that movement as a primary reason to hate on LeBron, and KD for the most part gets a pass on it. It's fine for any of them to do it. Its almost required at this point to get a ring in today's NBA, and that's the leagues fault, not the individual players.
If KD had held an ESPN hour-plus special announcing his decision and put on a full on light show for his first appearance in a GSW uniform saying "NOT 1, NOT 2, NOT 3" and so on, he probably would be getting more hate
Durant has been getting a fair amount of hate for this move, granted it would be a lot more if he had done it in LeBron fashion.
In LBJ's defense, almost $6 million of TV revenue from The Decision was donated to charity.
I'd say KD has gotten his share of blowback for his move to Oakland. The big difference is that LeBron handled his free agency like a massive heel turn. The Decision, the intro/welcome party (not one, not two, not three), etc... The schadenfreude of Miami losing to Dallas after it felt pre-ordained was crazy. Durant joined a pre-existing team culture instead of building it himself.
EDIT: beaten by two minutes
some points deserve to be reiterated
And KD bought into that culture 100%.
I think KD's humility is what might be getting him a little more off the hook than LBJ. The humility of just about everyone on the Warriors team is what I enjoy about the Warriors. They play GREAT team basketball and are always looking to make the extra pass to get a better look. On defense after one of them knocks the ball out of bounds or a stoppage occurs from some good defensive play, they are usually high fiving each other as they match back up. They look like a pretty tight group. I much prefer team concepts and moving without the basketball over iso-ball. I know there will be varying opinions, but that's what I like watching.
I'm interested to see what changes the Cavaliers make in the off-season to try and combat the Warriors. For the Cavaliers sake, it should include some trust falls and high ropes courses to bring them closer together as a team. Kevin Love showed that talent alone without team buying in to team doesn't work.
Lets not also forget that the Spurs had the Warriors down 20 some odd points before Kawhai went down in game 1. The Warriors making it back is no guarantee.
"The humility of just about everyone on the Warriors team is what I enjoy about the Warriors."
You gotta be kidding me. This is the most cocky team I've ever seen. From Steph's taking a dump move in game 3 to whenever Draymond opens his mouth to running up the score by shooting 3s when the game is wrapped up, I would say humility is not something this team thrives at.
Humility in the sense that they're all in it together, all in it for the warriors and for each other, and not looking to get theirs at the expense of anyone else. Would have been so so easy for any one of them to have agitated for more touches.
I missed your reply. Gobble Gobble Chumps summed up my thoughts on the humility aspect. They play more for the team than they do for themselves and are putting their egos aside to win basketball games.
As far as the cockiness goes, I catch myself thinking that the opponent of the team I'm rooting for is the most cocky team ever, not that I'm saying the actions you pointed out aren't cocky or disrespectful. I'd like to think we can both agree that this team was the cockiest...
via GIPHY
Say that once more for the people in the back! For real, though... the big difference between LeBron's free agencies and KD's was that KD joined a roster that didn't need shaping to be an immediate contender. He slotted in to the best situation for him. LeBron picked a team and influenced personnel decisions to help shape an immediate contender. If LeBron doesn't sign with Cleveland, there's no way the Cavs trade Wiggins for Love. If LeBron doesn't sign in Miami, there's probably little chance that Bosh AND Wade decide to also sign there. Too many other, better basketball situations were available.
That's an enormous difference. Lebron went back to his hometown and original team that couldn't make the playoffs without him even with Kyrie, and won a championship. Kevin Durant joined what was the best regular season team of all time at 73 wins, absolutely shattered records all year, best three shooting team in history, who had won a championship the previous year and only lost the championship this past year after gaining a 3-1 lead. He didn't just join a team that was already a contender, that's putting it mildly, he joined the best three shooting team in the history of the sport, that was shattering records and riding a historically great ELO for years BEFORE he got there.
Also, comparing Kevin Love, who had like 4 points until the 4th quarter last night and many other miserable games in the playoffs/finals, to guys like Klay and Draymond who are superstar scorers and the latter was top three in real plus/minus last season.
I have no patience for this narrative.
Okay. No. He didn't win a championship his first year. He also brought in the following players: Kevin Love, JR Smith, Channing Frye, Richard Jefferson, Iman Shumpert, Mo Williams and Timofay Mozgov to win it. These guys are not dopes. To suggest that LeBron walked into some empty cellar and won a championship is absurd. Give him credit for recruiting players, but he knew what he was doing going into Cleveland. He knew the young talent they had. He knew the assets they had. LeBron isn't dumb.
It amazes me how people continue to knock the Cavs role players.
One, I didn't say he won in the first year, that was never stated anywhere by me. I said he returned there and won a championship. I'm pretty upset about this one, the beginning of your first paragraph sounds so fucking pompous (Ok. No.) you tried to make me sound stupid about something I didn't state. It should be noted, he didn't even have Love or Kyrie (for part of the first game, yes) in the first finals and put on an incredible performance, so much so that many people thought he should still be MVP in a losing effort.
Second, good lord, half of those people are like 35 and completely average. Sure they had some decent games as role players but Frye was rarely ever even used in the playoffs and Mozgov pretty much got rich by being a bumbling idiot for the Cavs, he's been awful since he left.
Kevin Love has been abysmal (or injured) for many of the finals games, and then everyone points to the 2, maybe 3 good games he has had in the finals for them (he had about zero good games in the series last year). I love JR Smith, and Shump is a great defender who I am also a big fan of, but it's not like he has other well-rounded super stars who consistently score 20-30 points like 4 out of the Warriors starting 5 do. Here are Kevin Love's stats from this past series and here are his stats from the previous finals that are unbelievably bad.
It's really unfair that LeBron has to play on a team that has 2 #1 overall picks and 3 other top 5 picks. When he rejoined the Cavs they already had 3 #1 picks and 2 more top 5 picks from the last 4 years on the roster. LeBron wanted those resources used in certain ways and that's what the Cavs did. It's a false narrative to act like the Warriors had a huge advantage over LeBron when Cleveland was stockpiled with valuable assets when he came back.
"valuable assets" means nothing if they don't play like it, being a first round pick does not equal players that are actually putting incredible numbers in the NBA like the Warriors have. Look at my post above (where I included links to stats), Kevin Love has been absolutely nothing close to a superstar or all star in the finals, he's been a role player, and often times and underperforming one at that.
Kevin love has been nothing close to a superstar but imagine if LeBron hadn't decided that he would be a better asset than Andrew Wiggins
If they had held on to Wiggins you could make a strong case that they would've won this series. All the starters on these two teams cancel each other out for the most part except for the 2 guard spot. JR was terrible the first 2 games of the series and Klay became Golden State's X factor the further the series went. It's a big reason why I think Paul George could end up with Cleveland before next season.
To me, your sentence read like it implied that LeBron going back to Cleveland and won a championship overnight. That's why I said they didn't win it the first year. For depth purposes, Golden State is good up until about 7 deep. The big 4 + Iggy, West, Livingston. Cleveland is the same depth wise of what I'd call "players you should be comfortable with on the court in the finals." The big 3 + JR, Shump, Tristan Thompson, and Richard Jefferson. If you go beyond that, I would take Kyle Korver, Deron Williams and Channing Frye just slightly over Zaza, JaVale and McCaw, but the difference + minutes played is minuscule so it really doesn't tip the scale.
Let's really break this down on how these teams were built and look at them talent wise.
LeBron vs KD: Both signed in free agency. Unarguably the best two players in the league. Even, I'll give you a slight edge to Cleveland since you're a LeBron guy .
Kyrie vs Steph: Both drafted in the first round. I'd listen to arguments on both sides on which is better. Even, but I'll give a slight edge to GSW since Steph has been MVP.
So once you get each teams best players out of the way and deep bench guys that are old and/or trash, you find this:
Draymond/Klay/Iggy: Two were drafted and developed. A first and second rounder. One signed in Free Agency, who while an previous All-Star, he is nothing more than a very, very solid 6th man this season.
Tristan Thompson/JR Smith/Shump: One was drafted, the other two signed. JR Smith, I put in the category of Iggy. Very very good 6th man on a Finals team, I don't want him to start. Thompson, everyone loves to criticism, but people forget it was LeBron being his biggest spokesperson on his renegotiation.
So when you look at it, Golden State didn't really do much different than Cleveland. Honestly, they just hit on their draft picks with Draymond and Klay. Simple as that. Cavs had the opportunity to draft Draymond. They didn't.
When you say you have no patience for saying the narratives are the same for their free agencies, I don't buy it. LeBron knew what he was walking in to. It wasn't poor ol LeBron walking into a team with nothing. He knew the assets they had. He knew Kyrie was a budding superstar. He knew he could attract talent to fill the void around him. He knew what the Cavs cap situation was like. KD is the same. He knew what he was walking into. He knew what was going to be surrounding him. They were built the exact, same way, and honestly Golden State a little more organically. Durant had faces on the assets he was walking into. LeBron had the assets in clay form to mold.
EDIT: I'll go ahead and mention this here too. Cleveland drafted horribly in this whole run up. Golden State was run extremely well. Cleveland was handed picks on a platter and could have easily had Andre Drummond, Wiggins, Greek Freak in drafts they ended up with Waiters and Bennet and a bunch of other trash. Instead of Tristan Thompson they could have gone Klay. Cleveland deserves a lot of blame as far as team building is concerned. Golden State has nailed it. And they didn't have to sign olf af guys that were just looking to ring chase, too.
It is an enormous difference. I was just making the observation. I'm not sure that it changes much in terms of my perspective, though. LeBron's biggest flaw (in my own personal opinion as someone who has never met the guy) is that he is not a very good GM, but still comes across as though he is calling personnel shots. Earlier this year he made the comment about being "top-heavy"... of course they are top heavy. They traded two rookie contracts for Kevin Love, and re-signed him to a max deal in free agency just last summer. After losing to the warriors in 2015, LeBron agitated for them to re-sign JR Smith and Tristan Thompson to monster deals.
I understand that it's the order of events that makes the big difference between KD and LeBron's free agencies and super teams and stuff, but it's also a little ridiculous to think that perception is entirely pathway-dependent and that the means entirely justify the ends without any regard to what those ends are. If LeBron had any faith in a GM to just do his job well, he may have had useful depth on his bench instead of James and Dahntay Jones and Derrick and Deron Williams.
PS, Fun fact: did you know that Derrick Williams's middle name is LeRon?
Completely disagree and lebron said as much in a press conference within the last week. Lebron built those teams from the ground up to beat the teams in the east he kept losing to. KD joined a championship team he lost to just to win a ring. Comparing the two is apples to oranges at best. And also, people can quit blaming lebron for the whole new superteam trend. That KG, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce Boston team was the first to do so if you recall and it took building a better team in Miami a few years later to compete with that cuz they kept knocking Cleveland out. Absolutely no problem with that logic, tho I will admit lebron definitely could've handled the whole situation with more grace. I'm not saying KD should've stayed in OKC forever but to leave the team that drafted you to join the team that's knocked you out of the playoffs is treason. I'm not a Russ guy, but I can understand being mad in his situation, as well as the entire state of Oklahoma.
Isn't that the point though? To win? I can understand this if KD rode the coattails on Steph and Klay and Draymond to the championship, but he didn't. He dominated those finals and it was an extremely efficient domination too. Also, major threes down the stretch in close games. It's not like he was handed a ring. He had to go out there and earn it.
Don't forget Rajon Rondo. He was on that champ team for Beantown.
Good point about the east, Lebron has always stayed in the east for the easier road to the finals.
Comparing the KD move to the Lebron move makes sense in 1 way. They each left the team they were on. Lebron went to join a past his prime Dwade and then recruiting Chris Bosh. All you have to do is look at how the Heat did before and after he left. KD went to a team that had been to back to back finals, already had 2 of the best shooters in history, won 73 games the year before, was probably 1 Draymond nut shot from winning back to back titles, AND it was the team that Durant blew a 3-1 lead to in the previous years conference titles. It would be the equivalent of Lebron leaving Cleveland a couple years earlier and joining Garnett, Pierce, and Allen. OKC and Golden State could have battled it out for the next few years with KD, Westbrook and Ibaka.
In 2010, he was 28 years old and coming off a season where he averaged 26.6 points, 6.5 assists, and 4.8 rebs per game in the regular season. 33 pts, 6.8 assists and 5.6 rebs per game in the playoffs.
He was one of the best players in the league at the time, and there was absolutely no sign of the decline he started on by the end of their big 3 run.
DWade was better than than Steph is now. That is a fact.
I disagree, but that mostly depends on what you value in a player. The have two vastly different skill sets, and they provide completely different matchup problems (if we're talking about peak Wade vs. peak Curry).
DWade could get to the rim practically any time he wanted, but he's always been a below-average 3-pt shooter.
With Curry, you practically can't leave the guy any space when he's within 10 feet of the 3-pt line.
Those traits fundamentally change the way a defense has to account for a player on the floor. By keeping a player glued to Curry when he's 30 feet from the basket, you're leaving a lot more room for his teammates to operate. The defensive strategy to guard DWade at his peak didn't require a team to defend as much space & cover as much ground as teams guarding the Warriors now (and Curry is one huge factor for that).
Also, when you say "that's a fact," I'm not inclined to believe you at face value. Provide me some stats (or at least a narrative) and there's more to back you up.
He was coming off a great year and had a good year the first year Lebron was there. And then played 49, 69, 53 games and only played 34 minutes a game. Granted, the first year they played together he had a great year. But look at the decline..you can't say the 4 years Lebron was in Miami Dwyane Wade was still in his prime.
I'm not trying to dispute the facts, but hindsight is 20/20. There was no one predicting the decline to come in 2010
correct, was stated he joined a past his prime... dwade was not past his prime, he was a top 5 guy AT the time.
Further, Bosh proved to be a top 15 guy, due to his ability to play the 5 spot and switch on pick n rolls.
They all took less so they could sign a couple miller to give them outside shooting. lots of revisionist history going on.
Dwade definitely wasn't past his prime based on ability. But he was frequently nicked up and always seemed to be battling some sort of injury. I do think he was healthy their first year together but after that there was issues.
I agree with that. The way he played left him banged up alot. I would factor in being able to stay healthy as part of being in your prime. Kobe scored 60 in his final game..but he was way past his prime. Still had the ability though.
he scored 60 because he shot a billion shots and made a mockery of the game in which the only thing his team cared about was him jacking shots like some ymca all star.
He started in 79 and 77 games the two years before LeBron took his talents to South Beach
Why do we celebrate the dominance of Jordan's bulls and criticize LeBron and the Warriors in the present? Why can't we enjoy greatness now? It won't last much longer!
THANK YOU.
The reason is probably just because the internet exists now in a much different capacity than it did 20 years ago. Also, it's easier to appreciate greatness after it's done beating the shit out of your favorite teams year after year
I love greatness. The Warriors the past two years were awesome to watch. They are awesome to watch this year. I just hate that Durant went to a team that was already incredible to win a ring. The fact that he went to them the year after blowing a 3-1 lead to them annoys me also.
But they are ridiculous to watch. When they are rolling no team can come close to them. You can't get that hot in NBA 2K
You can criticize it while still enjoying it. Don't get me wrong, having GSW this good is fun to watch to see how they can make legitimate elite athletes look like scrubs while in the same breath acknowledging that having the disparity as skewed as it is might not be the best thing for the long term health of the league as a whole. The league had the same problem back in the 90s with the Bulls, and popularity did take a hit nationally, and for a while the NHL was a more watched league. If they're not careful, they're heading right back in that same direction.
psst, GS doesn't beat cleveland if durant wasn't there and barnes was. if anything it was lebron and chris paul's players association fault for not gradually introducing the new salary cap over yrs instead of all at one time as the nba had hoped. that increased gap came at the right time for GS. Be careful what you wish for ...
And here I am still salty that the NBA vetoed the trade of CP3 joining Kobe.
FWIW, here's data about NBA viewership/ratings this year.
Edit/Addition: In my opinion, this probably results from both a change in the product (not saying super teams are good or bad for the league) AND from a change in television viewing habits.
Unbelievable stat of the day: LeBron averaged more Points/Rebs/Asts during the finals than he has had during any other 5 game stretch in his career
Bananas
I'm digging this thread up just to acknowledge how ridiculous the past week of the NBA offseason has been. Madness. That Celts/Philly trade. The Lakers getting rid of Russell to be able to shed Mozgov's awful contract. Dwight to CLT.
All this and there's still Porzingis, Paul George, and Jimmy Butler rumors floating around
It's been nuts. Lakers positioning themselves to come out of the rebuild really quickly with gobs and gobs of cap room next summer. Something close to 60m.
Sounds like a good way to add LeBron, PG, and another guard to take some pressure off Lonzo
I am still wondering if the Lakers are even going to take Lonzo. If I was management, I would take the best player. If there are two equal, I would chose against Ball at this point so I don't have to deal with daddy.
I think the Lakers taking Lonzo is a no-brainer. Look past the noise about his dad, which I'd guess will subside after a couple of years in the league.
First, the point guards on the Lakers roster (Ennis and Clarkson, who's more of a combo guard) don't have the same ceiling. Lonzo has some of the best court vision of any recent prospect in years, will have a height & length advantage on most point guards, plus he's a solid 3-point shooter (even if his form is kinda wacky).
If the Lakers do end up with PG & LeBron, Lonzo is the type of guy who would be solid alongside them. He's an unselfish player, doesn't always need the ball in his hands to be an effective offensive weapon, and his current deficiencies on defense could be minimized alongside those guys (assuming his D doesn't improve much).
It'll be interesting to see what happens in LA if the LBJ&PG thing does happen. LeBron has a bad habit of coming into a franchise, destroying their future assets to win now for a 5 year stretch, and then abandoning the team when he's not completely 100% happy, leaving a team with gaping holes that has no legitimate hope to compete anytime soon.
I wonder if the Lakers would be better off long-term to just do the slow rebuild and not shoot their load on a few years of LBJ.
LeBron also has a habit of making NBA finals and winning championships. Who can beat these Warriors who may be the greatest team ever assembled? I think if the Lakers pull off getting James, George, and Ball they'd be close enough behind the Warriors that perhaps they could win one championship sandwiched by multiple Warriors championships.
I dunno, to me, LA seems like a final destination for LeBron. He lives there in the offseason, and he does cameos in movies and stuff a lot these days. One of the greatest players ever playing for one of the most storied franchises in sports. It just seems like a really good fit.
As much as I enjoy hating on him, LeBron's no dummy, he has to know that his prime isn't going to last forever (even though it's lasted about 11 years already). I think his next stop, wherever that may be, is going to follow a very different storyline than Cleveland or Miami
I agree that it seems a perfect fit. I do not like the Lakers, so I do not want to see them add the great LeBron. But what a story line it would be if he passes Laker legend Kareem for most points as a Laker himself (personally I think he'll end up shy of that, but if he defies wear and tear and father time...maybe).
I don't think that would be the case in LA at all.
The Lakers are gearing up to have a massive amount of cap space next summer, when they could just sign PG & LeBron outright. They traded Mosgov's terrible contract and gave up D'Angelo Russell, who it seems hadn't quite panned out for them anyway. I also believe that move is clearing the way for Lonzo to get lots of minutes next year.
As for "destroying future assets," I'm not sure the Lakers really have anyone untouchable outside of this year's #2 pick (likely Ball) and Ingram. If they need instant help, I'd imagine that the could conceivably flip guys like Clarkson or Randle for useful veteran role players. And depending on Ingram's progression, if he doesn't project long-term as a star then maybe you can get more for him through the trading block.
As others below have said, it's not like LeBron has left Miami or Cleveland (second time around) empty-handed. If a team wins just one championship, it will have been worth it to that organization.
edit: nm
Sure, but many teams have tried this recently and largely either struck out or gotten a "star" who didn't fit or was quickly fading. There are only a handful of legit franchise players abe they aren't easy to land. It's largely why the Lakers ended up overpaying for Mozgov and Deng just last year.