Judging by the countless defenders Logan Thomas has on these boards, and the pitchforks and downvotes that accompany any sort of negative comments towards him, I decided to conduct a little analysis. This analysis does not begin to factor in his contributions in the running game, so please don't "YEAH BUT 3RD&LOGAN!!!" me.
As we all know, LT took over the reins of the offense in 2011. Against a largely cupcake early season schedule, he struggled out of the gate as any inexperienced QB is expected to. His numbers through the first five games of the season:
57% Comp --- 177 ypg --- 4 TD --- 5 INT
Certainly not good, but again, nothing too troubling given his inexperience. He followed this up with without a doubt his best performance by completely obliterating Miami. He followed this performance by dominating the rest of the ACC and a trip to the conference championship (38-0 bro?). His numbers during this span? Impressive:
61% Comp --- 236 ypg --- 15 TD --- 5 INT
This fantastic performance to finish the season led most fans to have high hopes that the offense could once again excel in 2012 despite losing a number of vital skill position players. As we all know, this was not the case.
51% Comp --- 229 ypg --- 18 TD --- 16 INT
Much of this decrease in performance was attributed to his poor surrounding cast. With Marcus Davis and Dyrell Roberts half-assing routes all over the field, and no running game to speak of, this was a fair assessment...to an extent. There were still numerous INT's that should have never left his hand, and just poor decision making in general. His accuracy fell off significantly as well, with plenty of balls uncatchable regardless of who the target was.
So far through 2013, it has been much the same. Admittedly, it's a small sample size that includes Alabama, but the overall results look familiar:
47% Comp --- 172 ypg --- 3 TD --- 4 INT
So for the crux of my blog post, if you were to remove the stretch of games in 2011 beginning with his legend-making Miami game through the Sugar Bowl from his career stats as a starter. You get this:
52% Comp --- 209 ypg --- 1.2 TD/game --- 1.2 TD/game
Just for the sake of argument, here are the career stats of a popular QB scapegoat who may or may not be the subject of my username (per game statistics not applicable due to a QB time share):
58% Comp --- 4867 yards --- 28 TD --- 21 INT
So my point is. Don't let a 9 game stretch of fantastic play with a fantastic supporting cast skew your judgement. I think the 21 other full games he has started are a truer indication of his abilities. Maybe you shouldn't downvote someone for mentioning the dreaded four letter word....Leal.
Comments
Maybe people should realize that perhaps Leal is no better. I feel like the Redskins when we were starting Grossman and everyone was clamoring to put John Beck in... Yeah Grossman is inadequate. That doesn't make John Beck a reasonable option.
how the hell do you know that leal couldn't do better? he hasn't been givin a shot. And he certainly couldn't do any worse than the product that's on the field now throwing consistently into double and triple coverage and staring down wrs. As a SR qb logan still shouldn't be having freshman growing pains but yet he is and people consistently make excuses for him. Personally for me its shit or get off the pot
This staff has more than proven they'll shake things up and no veteran player was safe.
Logan is obviously our best option at QB.
Furthermore, fans keep forgetting this entire offense was installed 4 weeks before alabama. Logan may be a senior, but a new offense takes time to adjust to. Steinspring did not, and I repeat: DID NOT, use progressions. Logan, for 4 years, has never had to check down routes...
Yup.
"He can't be any worse" does not earn you a starting job. "He is clearly better" earns you the job.
Bull shit, there are question marks all over this team. Benedict starting over Gibson is another one. These coaches haven't proved a damn thing to me yet regardless of how new the offensive system is. When your QB is throwing into double coverage and triple coverage and staring down wrs IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT SYSTEM HE IS PLAYING.
I never said there weren't question marks, but all the coaches have shown a willingness this season to give a starting spot to a guy that outplays someone else. Call bullshit on me all you like, but that's just what I've seen. We have no evidence Leal will be better. For the record, I think he is talented and I look forward to him getting his long-deserved chance next year.
Next yr I don't wanna see leal start. Might as well give it to the young guys and get them the experience. Otherwise its like a new starting qb for the next 2 yrs in a row and that wont bode to well. Bucky redshirted to learn the offense and then Andrew ford is enrolling early to learn the system
I just wish Logan had proper coaching when he got to VT. He's performed pretty damned well, considering the cards he's been dealt these last two years.
That I will agree with. After his first year here I thought we had another big time qb. But I knew beamers loyalty to his shitty ass offensive coaches would kill this team eventually. Tyrod kinda hid the issues we had on offense
Tyrod hid them because he could run. But that is the biggest thing to keep in mind, Logan plays like a freshman, because in reality--he kind of is. He has never been asked to be a leader, he has never been taught to check down routes, he has never been taught to not stare down CB's. Why are we suddenly asking him to go from a mechanically deficient QB to hero heisman candidate? We have to be realistic and understand that what is on the field just finished it's fourth "pre season" game by NFL standards.
EDIT: Please don't misinterpret. LT is above average at QB but could have been so much more...I will not defend him as the best, or even close, QB in the nation, but I will absolutely defend him as our best choice. If they thought Leal was better, he would have played during WCU. They chose to give LT more practice.
Watched him with the first string O against the second string D and with the second string O vs the 1st string D. He is better than JuJu Clayton, but at best is a serviceable backup. He isn't a guy who can carry the team, and at best I would put him in the Grant Noel level.
The only way he makes this team better is that he is a bit more of a threat on the bootleg. While he is quicker than Logan, he is no more adept at the read option. And he is just as prone to mechanical breakdowns (mostly throwing off his back foot) that lead to interceptions.
Leal may end up being serviceable, but he doesn't make the Hokies better. He will only get meaningful snaps this year if Logan get's hurt. He will be a placeholder next year until Loeffler gets his guy ready to take the reins, be it Ford, Mtley, or Hodges.
Wait-wait...you'd SERIOUSLY put Leal on Grant Noel level!? You're suggesting that Noel was better than JuJu!?
He was, man.
Eh I dunno. Grant Noel was bad. Maybe not "Glennon" but he was still pretty bad. I'm not saying that Leal should be in for LT3 but I personally feel like Leal & JuJu were (would've been) better than Noel. Just my thought.
I was about to come in and say that Grant Noel almost led us to a win over Miami's 2001 "Dream Team" and say checkmate, but then I checked the stats. Noel completed 25% of his passes that day, plus 1 of 2 on 2-pt conversions (the 2nd being the infamous Wilford drop...) and threw exactly the same number to Miami defenders as to his own receivers (4 apiece). So I'd say the jury is still out on this one.
And this should end the discussion. French has a knack for talent (Teller, Facyson, Edmunds) and knows the game of football. In the limited time we have seen Leal, he hasn't done anything that proves he should be the starter.
Logan makes his mistakes, but his ability and drive makes this offense better, the team better, and he will continue to get better.
Beck led us to the playoffs! And he didn't throw an int until week 16 if I remover correctly.
By no means am I saying or implying that Leal is better. Just asking people not to shit all over the suggestion of trying the backup as has been the case to date.
I have always wanted Thomas to succeed. All last year I kept telling myself that he had an off year and his senior season would be much better. Now that his senior season is here I honestly feel bad for him. I keep thinking of an article I read that quoted him saying his goal was to make the school proud of him. He's a class act, a great leader, stays out of trouble, and is an incredible athlete. Maybe he would be better suited at another position. It's too late for that now. Our season will sink or swim on the shoulders of Logan. That is, unless we put Leal in. I don't want to bad mouth any good guys. I just want the best qb in the game and I'll let the coaches decide that.
True. The coaches put the ball in his hands at the end of the game because they trusted him, and he pulled through. Twice, including the two point.
I feel like this at the moment until we have fans that are sold-out for the team we can't move forward as a fan-base and as a team, we tear down our own team from within more than they do from the outside with analyst and stations such as ESPN. This win we got against Marshall was ugly I won't sugarcoat it, but there's work to be done and to be honest with everyone not many teams succeed offensively the first year a new Offensive coordinator takes over. Being a fan to means being patient even during losses as well as ugly games like today.
Some may call me crazy, but I still feel like this is the beginning of something special I just hate for this process to start in Logan's senior year.
I completely agree here. As a fan base you stand through the rain to watch your team win or lose because you should always be cheering them on.. Booing or calling for back-ups does nothing to motivate a team (other than the Away team). The coaches get paid to coach and I think Beamer has a convincing resume that suggest he may know what he is doing...
I think LT is above average. I think he has a high ceiling but hasn't gotten there yet. Just as you point out all of his stats, there is a lot more to QB success than that. He has gotten screwed by bad offensive coaching for his entire career--Loeffler basically said his mechanics were no good, but he is a senior. That says a lot about O'cainspring.
When he had his decent stats, he was an inexperienced QB with a very experienced line and WR corps. The former offensive staff has done horrible recruiting over the past few years and we are finally getting back on track but they aren't at Tech right now.
Finally, in his Senior season, a new offense is installed, a new line is formed, and a ton of young receivers are in the mix. His #1 TE goes down before the season starts, and DJ coales playes timid. The offensive lines showed signs of life, but not enough to protect LT or the running game. In fact, so many people criticize LT for his bad throws but criticize the O-line for the running game...what if I told you the O-line has been responsible in both cases? Well, they are.
So in summation, LT needs to improve, but with the O-line getting no push, questionable play calling in red zone plays, and WR's who drop balls even when they aren't thrown great (a QB looks as good as his WRs catch), then I can't put full blame on him or say that Leal would be better. In fact LT has more game experience which means more decision making ability...I highly doubt leal would be better and this is definitely not the time to pull LT, right before ACC play.
I am a LT supporter because I believe he can be good, but also because, as a fan, I support my coaches decision. I think he needs to improve, but everyone around him needs to as well. I will point to RG3 as my best defense: everyone knows he is great, but if the O-line isn't blocking, RB's aren't getting space, and WR's aren't catching much---how can you ask they guy to be great??? They will both improve, but this year is really going to be a test of patience.
Ill say that the pass pro hasn't been as bad as some may seem. He has had open wrs. The last couple games he just forces
I know, but just because they are open doesn't mean he has seen them. I commented on one of your posts to say, steinspring did not run an offense that relied on checking down to more open receivers. This entire offense is completely new to LT and it will prepare him well for the NFL. Logan is just as new to this as Leal is. If LT is staring down receivers, so will Leal--it's what they have been taught up until 7 weeks ago. I think we have the best offense we can on the field, I think it is time to recognize that they are just bad, as an entire unit, and we can only hope they improve game to game.
Listen up y'all....the coaches are around these kids EVERY day. I also think we all agree that this team will only go as far as our QB takes us. Do you not think the think the coaches know that as well????
Quit whining like a bunch of loluva fans, let the coaches do the job they get paid big bucks to do.....and for Gods sake support our team.
Its kinda embarassing to hear the "boo birds" come out in Lane...btw.
Go Hokies!!!!
Unfortunately, Beamer's resume also consists of sticking with an underperforming offensive coordinator for waaaaay too long.
Seriously? Lefty's in his first year only 4 games in and your calling him out? He took on a rebuilding project not a team that was performing but not to their full potential. Offensive performance this year has not been good but 4 games is not "waaaaay too long"
Pretty sure the reference is to Stinespring, not Loeffler.
Actually the direct reference is to Beamer sticking to any/all "underperforming OC" for way too long, foremost Stinespring that everyone agrees with and implying he will do the same with Loeffler if he underperforms. This may not be what Drop Bear intended with the comment but grammatically it is what is written.
You can down vote if you want, but I'll suffer through rebuilding if it gets us to a better place. Beamer would have been fired after his first few years with this kind of thinking and now we just got our 700th win. I'll take the good with the bad if I can see future success coming from it, which I believe Beamer has positioned us for with his new hires.
I interpreted the remark as being about LT, not Loeffler, given that the original post was talking about sticking with LT. Thus, Beamer is known for loyalty to his players (LT) and coaches (Stinespring, unfortunately).
I hate when people downvote for stuff like this, and I hope you know that I didn't; just pointing out a difference in interpretation. I'm 100% with you on riding out the rebuilding if it gets us to a better place. Turkey leg for that.
No worries Guitarman. I knew you weren't on the down vote. There are a lot of newbies that are down voting stuff that they just disagree with in opinion without making a comment rather than using it for its actual intent. The fact that you just replied to my reply shows the difference between those newbies and those that have been with TKP a tad bit longer. (and even though I have just recently started posting I have been with TKP since the beginning)
turkey leg for being a gentleman good sir
Wasn't me either. I've been ^ voting the f-kn $h@t outta stuff on here.
You now need 10 turkey legs before you're able to vote. Boom. Also, in the offseason I might add a way to list all the handles of folks who downvoted a comment.
Good features. Thanks, Joe.
I recommend you set the limit at 100 turkey legs, but you're the boss. #notrolling
The thing is, it would be much different if there was a 5-star true freshman behind Logan who would eventually set every VT QB record in the book. That was the case with Glennon. There is no quarterback behind Logan who is capable of stepping in and winning more games than him.
list all the #s you want...
LT brings many intangibles to the table-
we will see very clearly what they are next year
when we will not have option to play him or not.
Enjoy what you have while you have it.
I will enjoy Andrew Ford and Bucky hodges. Personally I like Ford. Great football mind
I hope the others are great too- NEXT YEAR...
This team is in place. deal.
EVERY HOKIE QB on scholarship in the past 15+ years
has had outstanding POTENTIAL (like Hodges and Ford)
Few ever realize it at the college level. Lets hope they do-
but for now lets support and ENJOY Logan for the rest of the season!!!!
Not trying to be a dick here, just looking for an honest response. What are these intangibles you mention?
I mean, I get that the guy is very even-keeled and doesn't lose his composure, but I'm not exactly sensing a ton of leadership.
Kind of hard to "sense leadership" from outside of the huddle.
All reports from Coaches and Players are that Thomas has been a good leader this season.
Intangibles is what you cite when data isn't on your side.
(his point isn't wrong though, LT is rough right now but next year will be an absolute cluster at QB)
Leadership
Experience
Heart
Pride
Persistence
Loyalty
Want me to keep going?
I get your point but he's our best option, if you think otherwise then you really don't understand how a very successful D-1 football program is run. If Leal was a better choice or we had any better option then we'd do it hands down end of discussion.
http://www.roanoke.com/sports/virginiatech/2244236-12/virginia-tech-is-r...
Logan just got done towards the end he literally willed us to victory with the td runs in the 3rd Overtime.
That's how I saw it too - those two final runs in the third overtime, you could tell his body language was "Give me the ball and get everyone out of my way, I'll do it myself." Loved it!
No receivers to drop anything on a QB draw.
his backdoor TD was awesome.
You mean his sideways attempt? Jumping in sideways is always easier then going head first.
Guys a "House divided can't stand!" The same thing still applies for this team and this fan base.
"A HORSE on a treadmill divided cannot stand!"
Logan detractors are in the vast minority.
They've sold alot of #3 jerseys. He is our guy.
Keep Going. Beat GT.
GO HOKIES!
I definitely agree. He still gets the loudest cheers during starting line-ups.
Also when the O is on the field it's always the loudest when he takes off for a run.
Apparently a soldier in my unit is good friends with Sam Rogers' older brother
In my experience the amount of people who irrationally hate Logan Thomas is far higher then those who irrationally defend him.
Almost everyone recognizes that Thomas isn't going to carry the team on his back to "flawless offensive execution" heaven. However, many do accept that despite his flaws there are things that Thomas can do that no one else on the roster can, and because of those gifts they argue that he is the QB that gives Tech the best chance to win.
Tech is going to face a lot of 3rd and longs this season because of the inconsistency of blocking up front and because of the inconsistency of WR playmaking. I'd put my money on Logan Thomas making a 3rd and long completion over Mark Leal.
Last year, I said to someone that he's kind of like a Brett Favre. He takes on a lot and wants to win, and he leaves everything out on the field. He'll throw interceptions that seem stupid, but he'll also throw brilliant balls for TDs. He'll try EVERYTHING he can to win, or put us in a position to win...but he can't do it all by himself.
Look at Favre, he was around forever, played tough every game, and many seasons had as many TDs as he had INTs...in some seasons more. But he fought for every inch, and won many games, and blew many games...no one doubted he was an above average QB, and he holds many records for the NFL and GB. LT holds some records for VT, and is set to break some records this year for VT, and he puts his heart and soul into the game. Can't really dislike a player that does that.
Except for when he leaves with a giant "EFF YOU" and ends up playing for the rival team a year later. Which I'm pretty sure Logan can't do at this point.
One of my favorite Farve plays was one when he completed a pass and then ran down the field and got a block for his receiver. I can't remember which game I saw it in though.
YEAH BUT 3RD&LOGAN!!!
In regards to this, I thought Marshall did quite a good job of tackling and stopping momentum. Props to them for playing a great game.
Every time see/hear 3rd and Logan, I think about 3rd and 31 and get a little sad. There is only one LT and it's not Logan Thomas
...? I think you mean TT? Tyrod Taylor?
I can see how that wasn't very clear. (1) I miss Tyrod. (2)There is only one LT
Yeah, I think we're wondering who the other LT is.
Only the best LB to ever play. Maybe I am getting too old. There cannot be another LT because there's only 1.
if he's not doing an outstanding job ,he's at least doing an admirable job as qb...btw,the new offense might be new,but isn't the whole qb position new to him? Wasn't he a tight end or wide out in school ?I may be wrong but I do know he played that position in the Army HS all star game.
He was recruited as a tight end but played quarterback in high school. He only played tight end for about a month at VT before beating out JuJu for the backup spot behind Tyrod. He's been playing QB for technically six or seven years.
Logan could have been the next Jason Witten in the NFL in my opinion, if the COACHES had worked with what they had and done a little coaching instead of moving him... Think about it guys, Grant Noel was our QB for a year. With that said, this kid gives everything he has and I applaud that. Ultimately he has made one of the biggest team efforts ever and probably cost himself millions in the NFL because he did do what the COACHES asked. Not to say he still will not make millions in the NFL, might just take longer.
Ugly game to watch, but a W is a W go hokies!!!
Totally true. The guy has given it all he has, and I know he is probably more frustrated than we are that things aren't going our way. That being said, jack tyler said in his postgames that this felt like the first time in forever that something finally went our way...perhaps this is a small turning point...a hard nosed victory can sometimes cue more fire than blow out wins.
in any case, if he doesn't make it as a QB he will make it as a TE and just has to avoid pulling a tebow and insist on QB play if he really can't do it. I think he can, but the former coaching staff screwed him over.
Oops- sorry, fat- fingered an unintentional down vote. A W is definitely a W and I was cheering as the Marshall receiver failed to make the play on fourth down!
Pick any top 10 ten then add Logan...I promise you his numbers would be much better.
As a TE? ;)
First a comment on statistics: 9/30 games is NOT an outlier. The Miami game is an outlier, but 30% of games is not an outlier.
Logan is not an all-time quarterback that he was once projected, but he's still good. He is very inconsistent. When the run-game is inconsistent, the WRs are inconsistent, and the play-calling sequences are inconsistent, Logan has to be elite all the time. Unfortunately, he's not. But, you put him in Alabama's offense, he would be an AJ McCarron clone (maybe more INTs).
If you want to get technical about the definition of outliers, yes, you are correct. I was just using the term in the broader sense that one thing is quite different than the rest.
Part of what makes McCarron great is that he doesn't make those mistakes. To say that he would be a McCarron clone is absurd. Yes, his stats would look better if he had an Amari Cooper to throw to. But that wouldn't change the staring down of WR's. The ill-advised throws into double/triple coverage. The balls thrown ten feet short/over the WR's head that have plagued LT for much of his career.
9/30 games had Boykin, Coale, and Wilson.
Not an outlier by any stretch, but the supporting cast was different. We rebuilt the line last year, too. One might be able to hypothesize that Logan's success is mostly dependent on his supporting cast, and that year he had a talented and experienced one.
The "supporting cast" hypothesis could be applied to just about any QB. In recent memory, the only 2 QBs I can think of who broke that rule were Andrew Luck (I swear his WRs had trampolines for hands. He had one or two legitimate receiving targets per year) and RG3. Maybe Newton and Kellen Moore to a lesser extent.
Take the same hypothesis in the opposite approach though. You're right. Almost any good QB has a good supporting cast. The argument people are making is that he wouldn't be bad if he had a good supporting cast. There are quarterbacks have/had good supporting casts, and still struggled (Noel and Glennon come to mind).
1st point LT3 has set QB records for Tech so to say he is terrible I think is a misleading because you dont set records if you are terrible. As to your point about Glennon here is my evidence:
I couldnt find tape of the GT game where he fumbled the ball on two consecutive drives nor do i want to see that again. Nothing against Glennon. He was a game managing QB not a game winning QB.
With LT3 you have to accept the fact that he puts us in the best position to win games and that he is going to make mistakes. Personally I think he is the 2nd best VA Tech QB I have watched behind TT. I didnt become a tech fan until '04 so forgive me for not putting Michael Vick on that list or any of the other qbs there.
Not once in my post did I say Logan was terrible. I do not think that he is a good QB, but terrible...no.
Logan being amongst the top of VT record books has as much to do with his longevity as anything. He'll finish his career with 3+ full seasons under his belt, and is as durable as they come. Looking at his per game statistics as I broke down, one would not expect him to graduate our career leader in passing. Plus, the game has become much more pass centric. Last season, the alternative to throwing was handing off to Michael Holmes...big surprise he threw a lot.
In no way was my inclusion of Glennon's stats advocating anything. I just found it interesting that a guy who most people on this site detest, has a much better career completion percentage and TD/INT ratio than someone who gets defended so passionately that it makes me think he somehow has incriminating pictures of the entire forum.
I do not accept that he puts us in the best position to win games without seeing the alternative. If we know he is going to make mistakes, why do we keep trotting him out there? Does the power running ability, which for the most part has become less and less effective as defenses have adjusted, outweigh all of the turnovers?
If we see the alternative we probably lose a game we wouldn't with Logan.
I know there's the alternative that we win a game we wouldn't too but our coaching staff obviously thinks that's not the case.
I think we all know that this isn't a championship team. This sure as hell hasn't looked like a conference or division champion either.
The defense has been great. The offense has been atrocious...there's not a whole lot further to sink on that side of the ball. Realistically if they change QB's and it backfires, we make the Russell Athletic Bowl instead of the Chik-Fil-A bowl. If Leal saw meaningful snaps and handles himself well, we would be better set up for next year unless Bucky makes some huge strides.
Just so we are clear here are the records for total offense:
http://www.hokiesports.com/football/records/offense.html
LT3 depending on how this season goes averages about 3500 yards a season and will be number one ALL TIME in Total Offense with over 10,000 yds of offense (assuming he does about 3500 yds this year)...Sean Glennon is at 4695 yds all time (just for comparison). Meaning LT3 in every one of his years here would have averaged about 1000 yds less then Glennon's all time (again for comparison) meaning his passing numbers when taken out of context look bad but when you add in his running and play making with that you see the picture that he is main engine behind our offense for the last 3 years.
That, and Glennon had about 10x the amount of talent around him than Logan currently does at skill positions.
Is there a reason you keep comparing him to Glennon? I made a cursory comparison of his career stats, never said he was or should be VT's greatest QB statistically. Too much maths and typing has been expended on this already.
I think it was precisely that comparison that is distracting everyone. As far as I understand it, your argument is that LT's stats are comparable (if not worse in some categories) to Glennon's overall line, yet Glennon gets ripped and LT gets defended. That of course invites criticism of the argument, given LT's rank in several record categories and overall production, and the fact that LT is doing more (in terms of raw production) despite having fewer high-level skill players around him. If LT had the receiving corps Glennon did...
Thank you for summarizing my argument
I wouldn't say we're a favorite, but if you don't think this team is capable of winning at least the division then you don't know the #goacc
You play to win the game and Logan gives us the best opportunity for it. You don't play for next year until you have nothing to play for this year and last I checked, we have one loss and a lot to still play for. The argument of putting us in a better spot next year is silly.
Here is the link to the Passing Records:
http://www.hokiesports.com/football/records/passing.html
Again LT3 already holds the record for Most Passes Attempted and Completed. He is 3 tds and 300 yds behind TT on the all time list...His overall passing % is around 54% and for comparison TT's % is 57% in case you want to point out that TT has fewer attempts and completions. Bryan Randels is around 58% and Glennon's is also around 58%. My point is that LT3s passing % is only 3% to 4% lower then other QBs that have come through this program recently. He has also not had the help of the receiving and running game these QBs enjoyed but I am not going to get into that discussion right now.
I think a big part was Glennon's complete lack of pocket awareness... Fumbles are at least as bad as interceptions, and I'd be curious to see those numbers.
I just feel like things move so slow. Hand offs, progressions, and more. Not sure if Logan is a heady kid or not, but something seems to make decisions proceed at a snails pace.
I feel like I'm one of the few in the middle ground, I LOVE logan's potential and believe me I know theirs plenty but he does make boneheaded mistakes. If we had tyrod on the bench (ALREADY REDSHIRTED) id say go ahead and let him strut his stuff a little but we dont and leal will get his chance (trust me Ive been a huge leal supporter since day 1 i loved his highlight tape and his "to short to play" label) anywho, Logan def gives us the best chance to win this year and for all of his great plays yes he does have 1 or 2 boneheaded plays that leave me scratching my head and pissed as hell, but for all of his bad throws theres at least 1 or 2 drops too our WRs need to help him too and our O-line. Its easy to blame the QB when our O doesnt move, but this whole offense needs a little work... dont mean to be a negative nancy but its true i love our team but our offense is in transition
GO HOKIES!
Despite my avatar I am not 100% Logan, however I have never seen Leal be better than him. And none of us are coaches. Lefty and O-Coaches, along with Beamer, see him perform every day. If they didn't believe he can perform and win he wouldn't be in there. Look how many true freshman we are playing.
My main concern about Logan-haters, or if not haters, Leal-lovers, is that you are taking something massively for granted. Logan DID NOT want to to play QB. He wanted to play TE. He was rated #1, and using your "could be" argument for Leal, could have been the best TE in country. He switched for a team that needed him to the exact position he specifically did not want to play. That is a huge intangible. This is the minor leagues for the NFL and changing your position has serious implications to your future. Logan could have said "No", the failures of VT recruiting were not his fault after all. He could have stayed at TE and been great but he switched for the team, and yes, believe it or not, for you the fan. Now you and other Logan-haters/Leal-lovers want to shitcan him for an unproven replacement. If I was a recruit I would NEVER choose a program that hangs their players out to dry like that. In fact, I am proud that Beamer keeps his word to players, their families and coaches. He needed Michael Vick his freshman year but kept his word to his coach and left him red shirted. That's a coach and program I WOULD choose as a recruit.
Fans can be fickle and this team is beyond frustrating, but we are young and inexperienced everywhere except for QB. Why replace the one person that brings experience with someone that isn't just because he "could" be better? Does not make sense. You are seeing the small picture. You need to focus on the big picture. Winning is game by game. Establishing a program with tradition and values takes years, if not decades.
Lots of agreement with these. Not a Logan hater or a Leal lover. I think we should get rid of these terms as I don't think many people qualify for either. Too broad a brush.
1) I haven't seen Leal better, either. I've barely seen him at all.
2) Logan at TE with Leal at QB might be nice to try. He would be a hell of a target.
3) I'm seeing a small picture. I want to see a bigger one.
Yah agree. I too fall somewhere in the middle of both terms. How about "Good QB lover"? And if you saw any of my comments during the Marshall game post I was definitely seeing small picture... but we won and I can rationalize why Logan was in there
I stayed away from that thread. My 2003 single-processor low-memory desktop computer wouldn't have been able to handle it. Plus, it would have taken more effort to read that thread than it would to watch the actual game.
High tech treadmill, low tech computer. Horse, we need to get you upgraded in every facet of your game. #Runlikeastallion
I agree with a good amount of this, but a few other things to consider:
-No one knows how good Leal can be. That's the point. We know how good Logan can be, which is VERY average. He has shown that time and time again and anyone who truly believes that he can replicate the end of the 2011 season for a sustained period of time is naive. You can call me a pessimist for believing that, but trust me, I am in the decided majority. This is the worst period of offensive performance that tech has gone through in a long time and at least Leal offers a chance of putting an end to that.
-While loyalty is something that I'm sure recruits appreciate, that loyalty is a double edged sword as it also means that the coach is sticking with a player that has proven that he really just can't get it done (for the record I'm playing devil's advocate with this statement; I would value loyalty way more). Given what Logan has done for the team, it would definitely be a slap in the face to bench him. At this point, though, I think Beamer's unwillingness to screw Logan over is the only reason that Leal doesn't get a chance.
-If we are focusing on the big picture, we would stat Leal because he offers something in the future. Unless Logan just magically remembers how to be good, we are going to end up with about an 8 win season. If you bring Leal in and he is worse than Logan, we will probably end up with a 6-7 win season. If he comes in and is better than Logan, we could win the ACC. The fact that playing Leal is a low risk/medium reward move that also helps us next season is the reason that people want him to play.
Point 1: yes, but do you go with the devil you know or the devil you don't know? Beamer will (almost) always choose what he knows over the unknown, and no matter how the debate goes on, no one knows what Leal is capable in game time at this point. But I would say that Logan showed flashes of something great in 2011. GT and Miami games were the stuff of legend, hence 3rd&Logan terminology, however he has since never replicated that. Something happened in the summer of 2012 between Whitfield and O'Cain that had serious impact on his throwing motion and ability to throw a simple pass. He was doing this in high school even, just simple pitch and catch. So I would say he has played AVERAGE at best, but has potential to be much better.
Point 2: Yes I agree with this. Definitely double edged sword but like I said I don't think these coaches are shy to play younger more inexperienced players over seniority if they prove to be better. You see true freshman all over the field, so I would not say Logan is only in there because of Beamer's loyalty.
Point 3: Russell Wilson. Thinking big picture does not mean you play the younger guy that will lead your team in future just to give them experience. This is why Tom O'Brian is sitting bitch at LOLUVA.
Sadly college has no preseason so there is no safe way to see another QB unless you are doing mop-up duty. It is really hard to say leal is a better choice, but starting him at the same time we start ACC play would not be a good decision. But I mostly agree here.
Thank you..at least one person gets what I'm trying to say.
again...whether you like Logan Thomas or not,the coaches put the ball in the hands of the one young man that had the experience,been through this gauntlet before,and could win the game .and the after game interview showed how humble he is...For the mess that he was in,and all he's come through,I think he did an admirable job !
You guys saying Logan should move to TE, you do realize that a lot goes into knowing how to play tight end. If you think our receivers are bad now, what about someone who has never played there before?
Nobody thinks he should go to TE. It's too late for that now.
There are a ton of people who think he should move to TE.
But those people aren't savvy enough to post here. :)
I made this post around halftime yesterday. Obviously I wanted us to win yesterday, but when Byrn made the spectacular catch on the tipped ball I knew that it would completely diminish my argument for the mass majority on here. 9/10 that pass is incomplete or picked and I doubt the apologists would defend him as strongly today.
Dude, let's be real.
There is zero percent chance Leal leads the team to victory yesterday vs Marshall.
Just kidding... but seriously... I don't see it happening.
So many of you guys just don't get the arguments being made on here...
I really dislike the condescending tone coming from several people on this site on this topic. We get the arguments. I know I certainly do. Here's where I'm coming from:
1. The coaches see these guys every day and are being paid a lot of money to try to win. I suspect they know something.
2. Any young man that suits up in the Orange and Maroon and works his ass off to represent this team on and off the field has my support. Logan has been a model citizen and teammate. He's doing the best he can given his own skills, the players around him, and prior years of inadequate coaching.
3. There is zero chance that Logan gets benched in his senior year, per everything that is being said by players and coaches. This argument, for me, is as tired as "the students suck" posts.
If we work hard, day in and day out and good things will happen. Call me naive if you like, but I support this team in the form it is now, because I suspect they're doing their damndest to win. Go Hokies.
I don't get; where's the vitriol, where are the pejoratives in your reply?
Vitriol and pejoratives belong to the Boohoos at LOLuva. Now I just gotta ask amigo. Does your screen name translate as: Why SEC for g? If so, what is "g". If not, what the heck does it mean? Dying of curiosity here. Thanks in advance. BTW I saw your #sarcasm there.
Most of the people on here support Logan because we want VT to win. And we all recognize that he works his ass off. The thing that frustrates me is when people:
A) Continue to use the word "potential" in regards to Logan
B) Make arguments pertaining to how successful this team will be on the grounds that Logan will play like he did in 2011. Sorry, but it's not happening.
C) Are so sure that Logan gives us a better chance to win than Leal. No one knows how good/bad he will be.
I love this team, but I'm also too rational of a person to believe that Logan can lead us to an ACC championship. For the record, I also believe that there is 0% chance that Logan gets benched. I just kind of wish Beamer would at least consider it.
You are too rational to believe that Logan can lead us to an ACC Championship, yet you feel as if Leal can? If Leal hasn't been able to beat out Logan after TWO QB competitions, how in the hell do you expect Leal to be able to beat the majority of ACC teams?
Where did I ever say that?
C) Are so sure that Logan gives us a better chance to win than Leal. No one knows how good/bad he will be.
I love this team, but I'm also too rational of a person to believe that Logan can lead us to an ACC championship.
These two points make it seems as if you are coming across as Leal potentially being a better option. Winning an ACC Championship? Maybe you didn't state that directly. My mistake.
With that said, if Leal could be a better option than Logan Thomas, he would playing. Just because his actual in game performance is still a relative unknown does not mean that he will be the second coming of Kurt Warner. That's the issue I have with the whole discussion. I am far from a 100% defender of Logan Thomas, half his plays may be good, while the other half may leave me scratching my head trying to come up with a reason why a Division 1A QB would do what he did. But he is still, and for the rest of this year, will be the better option at QB. Leal has shown absolutely nothing with regards to being able to be a playmaker in an offense that is severly lacking talent at skill positions. Sure, he may have been accurate a few times in mop up duty against FCS backups with zero pressure. Awesome. But it has nothing to do with his ability to make plays against BCS level competition.
Why shouldn't we? This is the first season where he's had real coaching. If we had gotten Loeffler a year or two ago, Logan would be vastly better. He has the physical skills, and this is the first year he's being challenged to step up the mental aspect of the game.
That's fair, but I think it's more a function of the supporting cast. 2011 demonstrated what Logan can do when others are playing at a higher level. We have growing talent in the WR corps, but they will not be to the level of Boykin and the almighty Danny Coale (one of my all-time favorite Hokies). The threat of David Wilson also made everyone look better in 2011.
Per my point above, I suspect the coaches do.
I would add D) blame mistakes by Logan on everyone but Logan. The people blamed for the mistakes includes but is not limited to the receivers, the line, the backs, coaches no longer employed by the team, Obama, the Tea Party, the Illuminati, the KGB, rap music and Cersei Lannister.
you forgot video games and glennon
It's always appropriate to blame Glennon.
I think everyone understands the arguments.
I think people just come to different conclusions. It's not that one side has the answer and the other side isn't smart enough to grasp it.
You should note, that Byrn ran a TERRIBLE route. Instead of running straight to the sideline, he keep getting deeper, which allowed the safety to undercut the route. Byrn drifted a good 4 to 5 yards deep. If he runs the route well, he catches the balll, and dives for the pylon for a TD. The play makes Logan and Byrn heroes and Loeffler look like a genius. Now, they just look lucky.
Just saying.
The reason that pass was tipped is that Byrn ran an awful route. He should have run straight to the pylon off the rub routes, and Logan throws it to the outside shoulder. Instear, Byrn ran towards the back corner. Logan had to throw it to him (he was open) but the angle of the throw gave the Marshall defender who was playing robber coverage a chance to make a play.
If Byrn runs straight to the pylon along the goal line, we are not even having this discussion. Logan had one horrendous throw all day (the first interception.) I am convinced that his arm or the ball was hit on the second INT, but it was the correct check down read.
His elbow got hit I think from the highlight I saw. But I want to know why he ran up to the tight end and started yelling after that pick. Couldn't tell what he was so angry about.
Announcers kept saying he ran straight up to knowles and I couldn't figure out why since he was nowhere even in the picture. I feel like the closest person was Edmunds.
I have a feeling that he thought Knowles should have a different route and when LT looked for him, he wasn't there and maybe would have been open, or something along those lines.. I don't think he was mad because DK didn't catch his INT, though.
The other option was a fade route. He ran neither. I can only assume he saw himslef wide open so cut off the route, allowing the defender to close. Logan may also have seen WB wide open, was a little late on the throw, or didn't see the defender closing so fast. LT is inconsistent on touch passes. He tends to fire it in and can't lob it over defender's heads very well. He has done this a few times already this year. Almost lost the ECU game the same way but the defender dropped the pass.
What frustrates me most when people call for Leal isn't the opinion, it is that most (not all) of them in the stadium (not necessarily on this site either) are really unfair about it/ two sided. After EACH AND EVERY mistake people scream, and I mean SCREAM for Leal, as if Leal will throw for 100% completions, 0 picks and 7 touchdowns each game. I get the argument that Leal could be better, we just don't know...but some people in the stands seem to think that he's the next Vick. Furthermore, people who have said things like "oh my god what a useless f-ck of a person" (I wish that comment was an exaggeration) after a bad pass turn around and say "YEAH LOGAN, THAT'S MY BOY" when he runs for a first down on the very next play. I mean, every play he makes is under incredible scrutiny, and they're all "make or break" in some people's eyes. I could be wrong, and I may not find out if I am or not, but I have a hunch, that some people in the stands could watch a 20/25 performance and scream for Leal on his 5 incompletions. I know that's not everyone, but it's enough of the people in my vicinity, and it's what is most frustrating about this to me.
I think that is the biggest issue for most of us. Look at any college QB and you will find throws that they should/should not have thrown. Furthermore, at any level you will find inaccurate throws. No matter what game - you will find plays that the QB did not execute perfectly.
I think most could understand frustration with Logan's play. However, I just do not see the logic behind "knowing" that Leal is so much better and expecting perfection with a new offense and new (and not as talented as usual) players.
Finally, I will say this. I have a lot of Marshall friends and at the tailgate after the game one of them, who has a VT grad for a wife, claimed, "I don't see how anyone could complain about Logan after that game." Many others, including me, agreed. Granted, we all knew Logan struggled at times but he led us to victory. He had a higher completion percentage, in a driving rain, than the QB who lead the NCAA in passing last year. Same amount of INTs (I know our defense is better, but one team's WRs are better as well). But LT came out on top and made plays when it mattered. I left my phone in the truck because of the rain. Little did I know what was going on here, and I am somewhat shocked. Call for Leal all you want, but when push comes to shove, Logan Thomas has won a lot of games for VT by putting the entire offense on his back. For that, we all should be thankful and really get behind him. He deserves our support. Let the personnel changes come from the coaches, because after all, have we even actually seen Leal play against a FBS 1st string defense???
I will assure you that there are many fans like that who go back and forth on 1 Qb. Ive been to many of tech games and I used to hear people in the stands talking mad shit about tyrod all the time when he was a freshman/sophomore. I would turn around and say are you kidding me because half of the people there didn't understand anything about football. Truth of the matter is that everyone on these boards wants to win, and we support VT and everything it stands for. Logan may give us the best chance to win, but he certainly isn't doing this team any favors. Basically every week everyone is gonna be on here complaining about the offense and logan because it is what it is. And that's pretty much ugly. And people are just gonna have to deal with that fact.
I was at those same games when Tyrod was a freshman/sophomore... and he made plenty of bone-headed plays those years, but was given a far longer leash considering who his QB competition was in Glennon. In Tyrod's sophomore year, he threw 2 TDs and 7 INTs... but because of his ability to run the football those years, he was forgiven for the most part. It wasn't until his junior year that he really even looked like a QB instead of an athlete playing quaterback.
And here's a fact: Tyrod was never asked to handle as much of an offensive load as Logan has. In Logan's first year as a starter, he attempted 391 passes and rushed the ball 153 times. Tyrod never reached either mark (and didn't even come close in pass attempts - his high was his senior year with 315 attempts). There's a number of reasons for this too:
1) Tyrod had four years of solid tailback play to rely on, while Logan had one year with David Wilson and well, we know how last year went. This year's been marginally better thanks to Edmunds, but it remains to be seen how the rest plays out.
2) Without a doubt, the playmakers surrounding Tyrod (and he himself) were far more capable of big-play potential. It's been said numerous times by the staff on this site that we have been lacking those types of players this year and last, especially on the WR front.
I'm sure there's plenty more that I could list, but I'm at work and should be doing that instead lol. Point is, Logan gets unfairly compared to past QBs when many within the last 10 years have had a better supporting cast. He's doing a lot of this with inferior talent, which SHOULD be that much more impressive... but alas, it is not. Oh well, I will defend him to the very end, mainly because all the nay-saying is reaching an all-time high and it's just getting tired at this point.
To add to that; Tyrod was always an athlete playing QB until his senior year. He was the same way in High School. Not only was the running back play better, but we had games that were blowouts and he didn't need to throw as much. With Logan, it seems we are either down or tied most of the game and he has to throw it to get the yards. Tyrod made a lot of progress between his freshman and senior year and I think a lot of people were hoping for the exact same thing for Logan and it really hasn't happened for whatever reason you want to give.
The 2nd string quarterback is the most popular player on any team with an under-performing QB.
See, that's pretty innocent. It's true, no doubt. But it's pretty innocent. You'd expect the backup to be popular when the starter underperforms. The problem I have is that it doesn't really seem that way. I feel like the backup isn't popular here. The starter is just hated, to the point where some people are just hoping he'll mess up so they can say "I told you so". That's frustrating.
I have no hatred for Logan. He seems like a great guy and plays his heart out. I want nothing more than for him to return to his 2011 form. My frustration is based solely on his regression and the unwillingness of the forum to at the very least entertain the notion that he might not be giving us the best chance at winning games.
I've said it before, and I believe it was mentioned in this thread. If we had a Tyrod level prospect waiting in the wings, I think it might be a slightly different story.
Re-reading my comment, I can see how you may have thought my post was directed at you. It wasn't, mainly just some people who are near me during games. I don't think anyone here hates Logan. Mainly I'm just frustrated with a couple of the people who are near me at games (same ones every week).
I think a big portion of this can be summed up as such: I am really pissed off that the last staff was allowed to coach for as long as they did. Here we are hyper-analyzing LT but all he has done is what the coaches asked of him. He competes the best he can, with the coaching he was given.
Dude, just let it go before BPD gets a restraining order. You're blowing everything so far out of proportion. Nobody has suggested anything like this anywhere in the thread.
I am officially done with this conversation. Much love to all of you
Personally I would never doubt LT3's will to win or those intagibles that our coaching staff sees. But from my perspective does Logan have the tools to be an NFL qb.? Absolutely. Will he be an NFL qb? No. Plain and simple. If our season plays out to where we don't compete for the conference championship, do we help Logan like Michigan did for Denard Robinson and convert him to a TE/WR to help his draft stock wit the league.
Throwing out stats is an easy thing to do. I'll throw one out. Johnny Unitas had a career percentage average of something just over 54%. What does that prove? He should have been benched? I can't say, but in at least three of his years, he threw more interceptions than TD's. He should have been benched definitely, right? I wasn't the coach so personally can't say, but in fact, he was, for one year as the team went to Super Bowl III where he came off the bench and led the Colts to their only TD that day. The next year he was back on the field throwing for another 54%. And here's a description of Super Bowl V from superpages dot com: The game was comical with errors. Late in the first half, Earl Morrall relieved the injured Johnny Unitas, who threw the Colts' only touchdown pass. It bounced off the fingertips of Colts receiver Eddie Hinton, off Cowboys defensive back Mel Renfro, and settled into the grip of Colts tight end John Mackey, who ran 45 yards to score on a 75-yard play. Dallas stumbled to a 13-6 halftime lead. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?
Thomas is our guy and this team is his. We win with him, or not. Without him, I don't think we do. I've seen Leal in a scrimmage against the second team. Though he might start the season, he won't finish the season in 2014 as the starter.
I don't really know Loeffler that well...but I suspect that he'll select a starter for his system before the year and stick to that guy for the whole season. Leal will have to fight to win the starting job, but if he wins it I don't think he'll lose it unless he's injured. Doesn't seem like Loeffler's style to have an on-going competition/controversy during the season.
But hey, I don't know him that well and I could be wrong.
I'll bust out some more extremely relevant stats: when I eat Chipotle, 95% of the time, I shit within the next four hours.
I know I've instigated a lot of this debate, but I think HorseOnATreadmill is right, there is really no need to discuss this any longer. For better or for worse, Logan will be our QB the rest of the season. I'd say it's time we shift our focus to the other Tech.
Apples, meet oranges.
Look at things this way. Remember when our defense was on the field the whole game? Yeah, that isn't happening as much now. The O actually is taking up some time of possession.
Actually I think we have won or atleast been close in all of our games so far
Despite all his faults, and I've been one of those quick to point them out, Logan is one of the clutchest quarterbacks we've ever had. Miami 2011, Michigan 2012, GT 2012, Cincy 2012, BC 2012, Rutgers 2012, and then this game. Some of those were losses, but he still brought us back at the end. So yea, he might be mediocre for 52 minutes. But if we can get it to that final 8 with a chance to tie it or take the lead, I want that guy as my quarterback.
The moment Logan completed that long pass against Miami after Tyrod got his bell rung, I knew we were going to be ok with Logan at the helm. And y'know what? We have been. I think our fanbase got extremely spoiled following Tyrod, its almost not fair that Logan was expected to light things up the way he did. But given the BS that Logan has had to deal with in regards to the staff, I'm very grateful he's handled everything as unselfishly as he has
Logan in those last 5 minutes... he'll get after ya.