Apathy has set in. And that's a program killer.
Recruiting busts, missed evaluations, and unanticipated attrition might set a program back for a season-plus. Mind boggling play calling could and does lose games. But fan disinterest will strangle a program into the dirt. From social media to message boards, there's been a plethora of takes distilled into a similar sentiment, 'I'm done with this', 'I have better things to do'.
Those cries were made and observed in the heat of the moment, or the scortched bytes thereafter. Perhaps they're reactionary. However, HokieNation, and its financial and in-person support, has helped sustain the program through its rise and over the long haul. It's a scary proposition to envision the result of a pullback of either. Moreover, the product on the field may turn away the potential next-generation of supporters.
"We just saw their sideline," said Pitt defensive end Rashad Weaver, "they weren't ready, honestly. And we were."
That's a damning indictment of the current state of Virginia Tech football. The Hokies had everything to play for on Saturday — bowl eligibility and a Coastal crown. Yet, the Panthers smelled the blood on the turf and pounced.
From inside the bubble, it's hard to put things in context. However, this feels like a new low for the program over the course of the bowl streak era.
This team is really bad. I don't know. We haven't had to deal with this since 2003. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯— THE KEY PLAY (@thekeyplay) November 10, 2018
That tweet was met with barrage of responses, 'No, it's worse'. It's hard to argue against that.
The identity of the program is lost at the moment. Virginia Tech football was never fancy, but it was dependable. You knew what you were getting: tenacious defense, playmaking special teams, and an offense that knew how to leverage the former. It was unnecessary to define "tough" as part of the program's mantra. There was an implicit blue collar mentality.
This season it's anything but.
The defense is setting new, embarrassing records.
Virginia Tech allowed 49+ points 1 time from 2004-2017 (the bowl win vs. Tulsa in 2015).They've allowed 49+ three times this season.— Hi, I'm David👋 (@ADavidHaleJoint) November 10, 2018
#Pitt's 654 yards most allowed by #Hokies under Bud.— David Teel (@DavidTeelatDP) November 10, 2018
And yes, the defensive two-deep has progressively gotten worse since the close of the 2017 campaign by way of NFL departures, dismissals, and injuries. However, it's November and both Justin Fuente and Bud Foster cited gaffs in force-spill concepts, a core and fundamental tenet of Foster's defense, as a reason for the 492 rushing yards (!) surrendered to Pitt. Point being, there are other issues at play.
There were more baffling decisions than offensive fireworks against the North Carolina (No. 95 S&P+), Georgia Tech (No. 104 S&P+), and Pittsburgh (No. 87 S&P+) defenses. Shuttling in Quincy Patterson, and flirting with burning his redshirt, for spot duty running the dang ball down multiple touchdowns made little sense on Saturday.
Overall, each unit is equally culpable in this disaster of a season.
Even though the chatter has escalated after each loss, it's not time to fire Fuente (or really consider it). Beyond the buyout, Whit Babcock would blemish an otherwise attractive post by terminating a coach who won a combined 19 games in years one and two. Fuente hasn't forgotten how to coach, but perhaps he hasn't learned yet how to manage a Power Five program — its roster, its fans, its staff.
To the latter, Fuente's been on the record multiple times he will pick the team over a single player.
Fuente on Mook Reynolds' situation: "I tell our kids all the time:: guys, don't put me in a position to choose between you and the team, because I'll choose the team every single time." #Hokies— Andy Bitter (@AndyBitterVT) July 18, 2018
That line of thought should extend to any individual, including Virginia Tech's assistant coaches.
Comments
I get the feeling we'll look back at this season as an aberration, not a trend. As yet another reminder, great teams have their bad seasons. Great teams also know how to rebound.
I'm hopeful too. Fuente coached a 3-9 team, and turned it into a 10-3 team the next season, so I'm confident he can do that here. I think the difference is that this fan base has higher expectations than that of Memphis. If he can win these last two games (which, honestly seems mildly impossible right now), then he'll buy himself some trust from the fan base.
I think this is probably right but I am worried that it seems like the team has quit, especially the defense. It can be really hard to coach a mentality and if we lose the blue collar LPD mentality that we are known for I can see how it would be hard to reestablish.
I don't think this team has quit. I still believe they are trying, but their efforts aren't utilized well. They don't seem to be playing smart and that is why things are the way they are.
You are right, I shouldn't be so quick to judge and I should be more careful with my words. Quit is too strong. There is fight and hustle left in the defense. What I should have said, and what I am worried about isn't that they don't care and aren't trying but that they know they aren't good enough and expect to get beat. There is a long ways between expecting to get beat and quitting. I just see a lot of really negative body language that comes across as a lack of intensity some times. To be honest I'm just not use to seeing a VT defense that doesn't know its badass and it is shocking to me to watch. I'll end my ramble by saying that my big fear is that the lack of swagger carries over from 2018 to 2019. I hope the ass kickings we have taken in 2018 don't linger and that the staff and the players have short memories because I do think there is talent on both sides of the ball, but if expectations and attitudes are reset based on the 2018 performance regaining positive momentum for next season could be tough to do.
The problem that I have is that this aberration should've been avoided. The team is extremely young and that is a legitimate excuse for the terrible play. Only 6% of the entire team is Seniors (Redshirt and true). That is insane. 19.8% are 4th and 5th year players (R-Jr., Sr., R-Sr.), 60.3% of the team is in its first and second year. 80.2% is a true Jr. or below.
Those numbers are positive for the future, especially with some extremely talented players/positions (WR, LB). But they shouldn't have happened in the first place. Attrition of seniors and players leaving early for the NFL should be expected and prepared for. Extra attrition from dismissals is unexpected and not being prepared for them is understandable. But the season should still be halfway decent because the expected attrition was expected and there were guys to fill those slots. A third year head coach and a 25th year DC have little excuse for the team being this young and those slots being filled by guys who aren't ready to play. Basically, the team being young and injured is a legit reason for losing, but why the team is young is the problem.
How exactly is a 3rd year head coach at fault for having a young team?.. the previous staff was in charge of recruiting what would now be the 4th and 5th year players.. the very players you cite we are so lacking..
Not only would the R-Jr and R-Sr players have been signed by the former staff, a player is not just recruited during their senior year. I presume CJF has developed relationships with kids in the winter of 2016 (just after his hiring) that still haven't signed their letter of intent.
[edit] I think the continuity during the Beamer years led to contributions from every class while other programs had 1-2 "lost recruiting classes" limiting their roster after each coaching change. This was a big advantage to VT for a long time. Being patient fans/boosters can allow VT to have that advantage again. Determining when it is prudent give a coach more time or when it is time to move on is just as hard and just as important as making the right hire. [edit]
It became impossible for CFB to talk to a 10th grader in the fall of 2015 and discuss playing for him in 2023 as a senior. This was used in negative recruiting but it was also an easy sell to recruits and their family. I think CFB retired because he could not fill a roster, not an inability to coach or a desire to take time off from the demands of the position. I think the problem which caused CFB to retire is also an integral part in the losses in 2018. Unfortunately, the impact will be felt for the next season too but hopefully to a lesser extent.
Go Hokies;
Thanks Coach Beamer for so many great seasons;
I still have faith the Coach Fuente will have VT at the top of the ACC again
I have looked through the 247 Recruiting information regarding past VT classes since 2000. (I do not know how to embed and Excel sheet, sorry)
The failure to recruit highly regarded talent in the 2014, 2015, & 2016 classes was a disaster. These players are expected to be the main contributors for the 2018 Hokies.
Tim Settle (#15): NFL; Jerod Evans (#37): Undrafted Early Departure; Shai McKenzie (#41): Transfer; Raymond Minor (#42): Left Program.
The 2017 & 2018 classes do appear to be in the same caliber (or better) than the historic average since 2000. Hopefully the 2019 class finishes strong.
Gimme more comments like this.
Help me out here...
In the second bullet point, "25" should be "50," and in the fourth and fifth bullet points, "25" should be "100"
Is that right?
Yep
I think the recruiting is not bad, but the kids recruited all (most) need to grow in size and develop in skill once they get to Tech. They are not the Alabama types that are big as barns and college level ready, day one.
Injuries have totally messed up their development timing.
We need to stay behind them and support their growth, not rake them over the coals, or they will stay what we are labeling them.
I missed the game yesterday, but I read the recap on The Athletic. Bitter said that he doesn't believe that effort is an issue, doesn't feel like the team has quit on Fuente, and points this out as the one positive this season.. Joe's take (and twitter timeline) seem to disagree. Curious to hear other people's thoughts/reasoning.
I'll say this, Fuente's postgame presser was a little disheartening
I can count on one hand the number of times I've written a team has quit. Without being in the locker room, it's a tough conclusion to reach. I wasn't implying it here either.
However, I thought the quote from the Pitt player spoke volumes. Pitt thought Tech quit, and that's all that really mattered. So much of football is played between the ears. Having a feeling of superiority and knowing an opponent is broken is very powerful and leads to a substantial beat down (roll the Pitt film).
However, at the very least I'd say Tech football is broken right now.
I am not sure that the Pitt player recognized a team that had quit,
He could have recognized a team that lacked confidence and had no idea how to impose their will on the game.
It is nuanced but in either option, the Pitt dude knew who was going to win the game.
I tend to think the quote is meaningless and just the type of thing a player says after a blowout. Coaches are going to preach a "we broke their will" mindset rather "they aren't very good."
This team hasn't quit, but they are sure down in the dumps right now.
I don't think they'll be able to strategically fix the problem this year. Coach Fu needs to loosen the team up this week. Make it fun. My suggestions are:
Piancake eating contest
Whack-A- Coach with the boxing glove on a stick game.
Pin the Redshirt on the Freshman game
Last Chance U Binge Watch Party.
Force or Spill? (Kinda like Truth or Dare)
Streak the Drill Field
Finally, Bowling Night
I agree with Bitter, based on the end of the game, the effort and drive is still there for the team. They didn't quit. I am just not sure the talent is.
I wondered if Fuente had lost the team in the first half. However, in the second half they came out and played hard and focused so he or Bud was able to light a fire under them.
They are just too bad this year- I think the bowl streak goes as well as UVA beating us badly.
I agree...I actually said in the game thread I thought he lost the locker room. After watching the effort the team put forth in the second half, I can confidently say Fuente has not lost the locker room and we just have a team that is young and will hopefully take these losses and inflict revenge on each of these teams that beat us.
Dropping the proverbial mic on that last sentence.
These fans are "losing their minds" takes on a whole new connotation now!
The team is bad. Really bad. All interpretations beyond that,including coaching ineptitude, lack of effort etc is also garbage. Such arguments are developed often to sooth the pain or look for some answer other than a lack of players. And for the record, the badness of this team is not equally distributed. The defense is the worst aspect. Which further points to a lack of players given that we have the best dc in the country. Time to get over it and digest this shit sandwich and lookyo the future.
Yeah, I'm trying to talk myself into making the 6 hour drive to Blacksburg for Miami...I'll probably go but I've never felt so apathetic about going to a Hokies games.
Same here. I've made the other home games this far but I just felt like the drive for GT was not worth it after th fact, and now Miami with nothing on the line but the bowl streak? Meh.
Go, have fun, cheer your butt off. These guys need it. They are just YOUNG men... they need to know we aren't happy with a (former) UVA-like season, but still supported. The home crowd also plays into recruiting. We don't want to have that slide. It's the cause-effect scenario.
100% agree with this. Walks from the stadium are getting so much harder as I get closer to my due date, and I've seriously considered staying home for this one, but I don't want the team to be playing in a near empty stadium on Saturday. Yes, it's been a very tough season to watch, especially at home, but I still love my Hokies. I'll do my part and tough it out and I hope a lot of others will do the same.
Im starting a campaign to get this women a golf cart ride to and from the stadium. She is clearly a dedicated Hokie.
Thank you! That is definitely not why I posted, but I appreciate the effort. :)
Enjoy your games and the ride. Make that little Hokie healthy and happy.
Contact the ticket office; I don't know about the further lots, but my mom had a major surgery back in March she's still recovering from and scheduled pickups from Tech back at the beginning of the season. The downside is your pickup might be as much as 90 minutes before kickoff.
Edit: Cart rides back are a little tricky. There's no "scheduled pickup" and you're somewhat at the mercy of "when one becomes available".
Yeah, that's kind of what I figured. We walk from my in-laws' house who live in a neighborhood across Price's Fork, so it's a bit of a haul. I've been trying to find a parking pass in one of the closer lots, but not having too much luck so far.
Lol, I'm flying across the country for the Miami game. Granted, I'm also staying for the UVA and Marshall games, as well as doing Thanksgiving with the fam, but that's not important.
I don't want anybody to take this as a criticism, or armchair coaching, but it is my VERY pedestrian opinion that something is off with Bud. Like, really off.
Against GT, ND, BC, and Pitt, the kids are playing hard. They're just never in the right place. It's been my viewing experience over the years, that Bud's front seven either forced or spilled, and there was ALWAYS somebody there to meet the runner. Sometimes there was a missed tackle, or busted play, but usually you could see good play design AND execution. This year, it's like the entire front seven is getting washed up in the trash, and nobody's even close to making a play... they end up chasing a guy. I've never seen the VT D so consistently chasing the play from behind.
Logic tells me that the kids are not being put in a position to succeed, which for years was the mantra of a Foster defense. Whatever he's got going on, I hope it's not too bad and he can shake it, or he may really just need to step aside and not get Mickey Andrewed.
As far as the opinion that the kids have quit, I just disagree with that notion. These dudes are playing the game game they love, and that's just too serious an indictment of their character, and of their parents' character. Ricky Walker, Divine Diablo, Dax, Rico, and Ashby have not quit. Just look at their body language. Thewy may be frustrated, but they're trying.
I'm not numb. I love Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, and football. I was showing up before Beamer, Foster, Fuente and Cornelson. I was here before there were any streaks worth mentioning. I'm here right now, and I'll be here until the devil knocks me down and Jesus carries me home.
What gives you this belief? You think that Bud has some tried-and-true formula that is all of sudden not working?
The kids are not being put into a position to succeed because everyone on the field is young and learning at the same time. When there's 8 experienced players, and 3 fresh faces, Bud can draw up a scheme that takes responsibility off the younger players until they get used to the speed of the game. There's no way to do that when there's 8 fresh faces and 3 returning players.
Bud deserves plenty of heat - mostly for recruiting/roster mismanagement, and a little bit for failing to make halftime adjustments (Looking at you Georgia Tech game), but those kids played to the whistle every play against BC, and it still wasn't enough. 3/4 of a season just isn't enough time for a full defense to acclimate to the college game.
It took me three years to figure out how to study and do well in college classes. Not sure why we'd expected anything different from these kids on the field.
My eyes give me this belief. This just looks different than a young team.
I could be completely off base. I'm not trying to debate, or bash a coach.
The Hokies have given up 49 pts four times this year. Once to ODU. Before this season, they'd given up 49 once in the last 13 years. The lack of half time adjustments, which you pointed out, among other factors, just tell me something's different.
It may be that we're at the top of the mountain watching the sunset of Coach Foster's greatness. Everything ends. That's just thermodynamics.
Again, I could be wrong, and it's just a bump in the road. That's a pretty big freaking bump, though.
Obligatory: Bud gets a pass, and I get that...
Necessity: We have Walker, Floyd, and a bunch of freshmen out there. Some of whom, particularly in the linebacking corps, are looking really good for being as green as they are (*cough* BudFosterIsTheLinebackersCoach *cough*).
Speculation: I heard on this board a few weeks back that Foster had an off-the-field thing that was a distraction. Not sure what it was, just a faint memory at this point.
Also, we are really, really f*cking young on defense. You are a hundred percent right though, that this is a pretty big freaking bump.
My take on it is imagine having 8-9 young Greg Stromans (congrats on first nfl pick). He struggled and became a great player. I hope that some is that some of the current kids follow that trajectory
Or Motuapuaka's he struggled in the middle but it didn't kill us because there were 8 guys around him to pick up the slack. This year there are 9 soph Motuapuakas and 2 guys that can make up some slack.
In my experience, they always have [followed an upward trajectory]. Thanks grandpa, I'll get of your lawn - after I clear the leaves. ;)
There's definitely a "light bulb" effect with Foster coached defenders. They don't get it. Then they do, and there isn't much in between. It's probably just the boom or bust nature of the system.
Not only that, but due to injuries and suspensions, we keep having to move these inexperienced players around. They can't even stick to trying to learn one position.
If I'm not mistaken, we had five new starters on defense yesterday. How the heck should we expect them to get the spill/force plays right every time?
Don't get me wrong, this team is bad right now, but it isn't for a lack of trying or having quit. They quite literally just don't fully know what that are doing.
Let's give them a chance to grow up. Just be prepared, that may not happen in time to save our streaks.
This. Exactly this. It seems like each game we have to toss even more fresh faces into the fire, who haven't been getting 1st-team reps this season. Not only are we playing freshmen, we're playing a different group of freshmen each week, a group that hasn't had time to gel and get used to each others' shortcomings.
Each game, we see a number of blown plays, but we also see a number of plays where everyone is where they are supposed to be and they make a great play. This, to me, screams "inconsistency", which likely stems from inexperience, and we aren't in a position to give the defense experience due to continued attrition at all positions.
Which is why Fuente mentioned getting Hewitt and Belmar back as one of the most important goals for the week. I assume that extends to Ashby and Rivers too, but it can't be stated enough how harmful it is to keep having to shuffle and insert fresh faces, most of whom are getting Division 1 football reps for the first time.
Leonard, I like your takes a lot more when they're accompanied with typical Leonard levity. Those usually trigger a good, much needed belly laugh during such trying times (see "Peoples donating organs" comment from yesterday's game thread).
This comment was criminally bereft of that usual Leonard flair. That doesn't make your take any less sound than usual. I just need something to laugh at.
That's all
You are not wrong.
I will not beat around the bush. Foster deserves some slack due to severe attrition. But Cornelson and Vice are not getting the job done. They have had an upgrade (supposedly) in player talent overall. And results are not improving. Time for a change.
Wait a minute. Vice? This is the best OL we've had in years, and the OL has improved every year he's been here.
Agreed. Gonna have to wait. No magic bullet for this demon on us.
The OL is still very soft, and our run game remains non existent.
Although I agree, Vice wouldn't be the first guy I'd call out. Corn needs to go, and Mitchell is dead weight.
Yeah, I mean, keep in mind being one of the best VT lines we've seen isn't a very high bar. But OL is right up there with WR as one area I think we're heading in the right direction.
I mean, I love Steven Peoples, but we haven't had a stud at running back in 7 years. Not only that, but with RW not being a running threat, it's even harder to run the ball. Without looking at any numbers, I feel like this is the best running game we've had in three years?
RW isn't a running threat? I havne't looked at any numbers either, but I distinctly recall Willis running all over the field yesterday and putting himself at risk with a lowered shoulder and some really gutsy running. He isn't MV7, but he's been running when he needs to, and even in some designed runs, to get 1st downs when we had to have them.
If the QB gets yards and the defense is accounting for him he's a running threat. He doesn't have to take it to the house. He just has to tie up a defender.
I have been giving Fuente the benefit of the doubt with the whole Travon McMillin thing, thinking his freshman year was the outlier, but after how he's playing at Colorado, where he's also in a situation where he's splitting carries, I'm leaning more towards the offensive scheme at VT just not being good.
And I'm leaning more towards McMillian not being a good fit for our offense, because he's unable or unwilling to do certain things other than running.
But you can continue thinking that our coach would run our best RB out of town for no reason if you want.
This is a pretty absurd response to my OP. But I certainly am starting to question whether CJF has the experience managing a roster to do what it takes to win. You've got to deal with personalities, often conflicting ones. TMac has ability, and he's now shown we likely can't just view this situation one-sided anymore. Saying 'well CJF said he couldn't block so it's fine he's gone' seems narrow minded to me.
Alum07 pointed out some of the other stuff we're starting to hear, and to me, the Tmac situation is just like those. He cares more about not being wrong than he cares about finding a way to win - starting Colt Pettit over Wyatt, doubling down on JJ over Willis, constantly reminding us how incapable Tmac was of grasping the full offense... This is becoming more of a pattern that is concerning.
Doubling down on JJ? Willis couldn't play last year so where is the doubling down? Who should have started last year?
It also seems that TMac has been slowing down recently, which is probably part of why they've lost 5 straight. Without having watched too much Colorado football, it's entirely possible that opposing teams have started keying into TMac being the runner and someone else being the blocker.
I'm not sure if he cares more about "not being wrong" than winning. Seems to me he might value "experience" a little more than he should, but I'm not as concerned about it as you seem to be. Especially considering that the offense has been much better than the defense this year, even with our backup QB at the helm.
I think it has more to do with Laviska Shenault being out.
I still do not get the vibe this team has quit. They're just in too far over their heads. It's easy to say, "It's November, we should see improvement." But there's no controlling when the game slows down for a player. It might not be until next season. For some of these freshman, it may not be at all. We're not just young. We're young with a lot of position changes. We're bad because of inexperience, but also because we've got some players at positions they have no business playing. And yet I still don't see these players giving up. They're out of position, they're taking bad angles, they're confusing spill and force calls, but I see effort every down.
We suck. That isn't the same as quitting.
If we bail on the team when they suck, the last hope I had that Hokie Nation was somehow a different and special fanbase when compared to the average college football fan will finally be killed. Checking out because of the first losing season in 25 years?
Bye, Felicia.
We suck. That isn't the same as quitting.
Indeed. I believe many choose to believe we've quit rather than the harder truth that we truly suck. And we do.
So, I watch football because it is fun. I find it entertaining. However, when I support a team and that team is not competitive, the game becomes un-fun to watch. So I do something else. I don't want to sit and stew and darkly mutter for 3.5 hours on a Saturday when the Hokies have indicated to me that they will not compete in the first 10 minutes of a game. Ill watch a different game, or do something else that is entertaining.
This does not make me a bad fan. If I were to watch every game to its bitter end, regardless of what happens in the game, this also does not make me a bad fan. In fact, there are very few bad fans, and the only true marker of a bad fan is one that cannot separate their fandom from real life, and resorts to insulting and personally attacking players, coaches and other fans when their team is losing/loses.
I will support the Hokies my whole life, but that doesn't mean I am going to watch every game, or be involved deeply all the time, especially when the team is performing non-competitively.
Yeah, no, clarification time. I don't care if you watch the games. I watched very few of our 2014-2015 games for all the reasons you're citing. I'm talking more about the people (and there are plenty of them) that are talking about pulling financial support over this season.
I mean, even if they do, what does that matter? People are allowed to choose what they want to do with their money. If they don't find enjoyment from Hokie Football, then why should we shame them about financially committing to the program?
Honestly, there are so many other things that are objectively better to donate money towards that I never understood the idea of making donating such a big deal. I mean, I am a member of the Hokie Club, but that would be one of the first things to go in a tighter budget or if I wanted to donate more money to a charity. I am paying money literally for entertainment. And no one should be shamed if they feel like their money isn't returning an investment and decide to do something else.
Two points, your money ,unless you embark it for a special project, is going to pay for scholarships. Your paying to send kids to college. Second that investment is doing really well. Graduation rates have remained high and overall VT sports are as good as they have ever been.
I agree with you completely. For myself, I see the value in athletic scholarships and participating in education. However, athletic donations are, for better or worse, linked to athletic performance, especially when they are advertised as part of the specific programs. So the "return" for most people is the on-field performance of the team and all of the actual good the money is doing doesn't factor into the decision.
The fan base pulling its money is what concerns me most for the longevity of the program. I argue most people who tune out and don't watch the games are apt to pull support or not begin altogether. That's compounded by the fact Fuente walled off the program in the off-season. That drove down fan interest in the non-football months, and now the play on the field is pushing more people away. It's a recipe for disaster.
This is my biggest fault with Fuente and Whit. Sports ALL OF THEM but especially football should have more access to fans and media. Spring game should be on TV.
Dead on. It's time for the curtain to come down from around the program.
If fans start pulling support, emotional or financial, then it is the fans who have quit, not so much this team.
Ha! That I have not contributed financially due to our ongoing series with ECU pays off for the emotionally invested investor!
TRUTH right here . I quit last year, Silver Hokie Donor, SEZ Club seats for years and had season tickets for over 30+ years. When Fuente plays a QB that is not getting it done, even after being "hurt", letting games being lost by that and his stubborn ways last season. Not wasting another dime on this ! This year, players leaving, putting JJ at the his number one Again. Then NOW, every chance he gets, He Cuts Willis. and this kid plays his ass off and has done more that JJ could or would ever do. And allowing his OC do some of the most awful play calling we have seen. Not to mention letting QP come in and do NOTHING towards winning a Game.. Not My Money going for this crap. Recruiting Will Kill this Staff and Take VT Back 15 years before Whit pulls the plug. That's my Fear because I Love VT and all their sports..
I struggle to understand this logic. VT needs money to be good. VT being good makes you happy. You refuse to donate money because they aren't good. How are you ever going to be happy?
Not to mention he quite LAST year. Not this year LAST.
It makes no sense to me. I will never stop financially supporting VT athletics (football). That teaches them no "lessons" it just makes it more difficult to compete.
It's his money, so he doesn't really need to make sense to you. If he's not happy with what he was seeing from the staff, and not happy with the direction of the program, it's totally fair for him to not continue donating if he doesn't want. Not sure why some of you guys are requiring some deep rationalization
Fair. Then don't come on a die hard message board and complain and not expect backlash. It isn't up for debate that money is required for a program to succeed. The way I see it is you can be part of the solution or the problem. I am going to be a part of the solution.
Good reading skills, thank You. My Money, My Time, My only way to say No to this Coach. You can pick up the slack and that will get bigger. Last year I seen all I needed, didn't re-new for this season . Love VT and support other sports and will continue.. Have a Good Day..
What last season made you say yea Fuente isn't the right coach? A season a half of coaching where he won by the end 19 games? His first season wins the coastal? Your strange hate for Motu and love for Willis who wasn't even on scholarship last year so I'm not sure who you wanted at QB last season is odd.
seems you are having a Problem here.. Bench Full of QB's last season. and Fuente Coaches them all and He couldn't use one when his his Boy JJ was hurt or stunk the field up. And this Year Bailing JJ out and looking past Willis, That Hard To see. And Motu was a Bud's Boy and that was the start of all these running records being hung on VT. Notice Dax got on the Field after Bud's pick got hurt, Sitting on the Bench and still would be if injuries hadn't got him on the field. Enjoy VT and Fu and Corny, whoever makes you happy. I'm happy with my Money in My pocket.. By the way, You above a Silver Or Golden Donor, Had SEZ Club seats for years, had season tickets for over 30 years, l traveled to about all the away Games. Went to Bowl Games. That's my savings... You can pick up the slack,if you above that.. then I admire you..
Wait so now your going in on Rivers and Ashby? Also I'll ask again what eligible QB should have played last year over JJ?
Just to set the record straight, JJ was "Loeffler's boy". So his decision making wasn't based on JJ being his recruit.
I cannot imagine not watching a Hokie football game. I don't care one whit what you or others think is more important, but to me there ain't much more important. If they're playing, I'm watching. The very thought of watching another game instead is unimaginable to me. When they weren't on tv, I listened in my truck on the radio.
I wouldn't call you a bad fan, but I don't understand what kind of fan refuses to watch their team play after watching 10 minutes of a game. Even 2-8-1, I was there for every home game, and still managed to enjoy the experience.
To each, their own I guess.
Basically, my math comes down to this: "Is what I am doing making my life better or worse?" I found myself being legitimately depressed or angry after a bad football game, and this bled into other areas of my life. Once I realized that, I tried to change my perspective on it.
I still really like to watch them play, and if the game is competitive, even if we lose, it is fun, engaging and I feel like it adds to my life. However, my emotional state was far to tied to the team when I forced myself to watch every play or "I wasn't a good fan." When I was short with my wife because the Hokies looked terrible, that was a moment where I had to change something. So, I choose to check out sometimes, otherwise I feel like it is unhealthy for me.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Hokies have taken a couple of years off of my life this year. We all deal with it how we need to.
I'm with you all the way on this.
But we also come from a time before the streaks when the team was not always good. We've watched through bad times. A lot of folks on here have not.
Hell, even LOLUVA whooped our ass a few times before the streak started.
In any case, I (the eternal optimist according to my wife) firmly believe this is a short-term down trend and better times are ahead.
Ah yes, I remember it well. And UVA (before they became loluva) actually had football fans, too. First, they stopped attending, then they stopped watching, then, they stopped caring. I don't want to see our fan base follow that trajectory, but even if I'm the last one clapping and hoping, I'll still be there until I'm pushing up daisies.
I'll be right there with you, brother! You said it very well... I lived through the "Hang Down Your Head" Bill Dooley years... UVA "fans" give up on their teams, not Hokie fans. These young players will learn a valuable lesson from this year and asses will be kicked by them and names will be taken by them next year. Hang in there for the ride Hokies.
This may not be a popular opinion but I'm going to go on record here and say that I completely disagree with Joe's tone on Fuente and have for most of this season. With that said I will continue supporting TheKeyPlay and think that you should too. It's doing great things and French is doing great great work. Joe has done a great job on this site and should be continued to be supported.
The heat that Fuente is getting is unfair. I understand it and I get why in a reactionary world the product on the field is incredibly frustrating. Football, however, does not exist in a vacuum. Each part of the ball are not actually independent of each other. When you know that your defense is a dumpster fire and is not ready to field a team it impacts the way you play on the offensive side of the ball. There is a desperation that can destroy execution. Every Beamer team that was in a similar position had Senior leaders that knew how to execute what Frank needed them to do to save a season on the brink. This team has literally none of that. It has a backup QB that wasn't on scholarship last year at the helm and a fleet of talented but young offensive players. Sometimes good coaches run into a season that is not salvageable. It is what it is.
Does somebody want to write a frickin article saying that Bud Foster should be fired. Cause defense is the origin of why this team likely won't go to a bowl. Nobody? That's what I thought. Cause you know that Bud Foster is a damn national treasure and will fix this thing.
Nothing about any of this should make anyone feel any better this year cause God knows this is a mess right now, but sometimes the right thing to do is to show up and keep riding out the storm. Be frustrated but keep supporting the players and the coach. Tell them you are behind them even when it is so exhausting to watch. Have some faith. I would have thought the fans of a Frank Beamer team would understand this better. I'm sure that there will be plenty of argument against this but what do I know, I'm just some idiot on the internet.
I'm trying to be objective and you want me to be irrationally optimistic. There's a disconnect there. Some of the heat Fuente is getting from the fan base at-large might be unfair, but from me, what little I've given, I don't think so.
Everything rolls up to Fuente. It's his program, his prerogative to run it his way. Given the team is sub-.500 I think it's perfectly fair to ask tough questions regarding Virginia Tech football's management. Fuente will have the opportunity (at least in 2019) to prove out whether or not his course is best.
I'll applaud the effort it succeeds and criticize it if it doesn't, because that's fair.
I agree with the guy that disagrees with you above. That's ok you run a hell of a site and I love the Hokies. This is the first year the key play has had a losing season I believe. More pain is coming. No bowl. Uva loss. It's gonna hurt. But we are long overdue this. We will regroup and yes. I'm still all the n on tkp. 👍💥
I appreciate the response. I'm not asking you to be irrationally optimistic. I don't think it's impossible to square up the fact that everything does ultimately fall on Fuente as it's his job and still acknowledge that it's possible he actually has done everything right and this season is what it is given a ton of variables that have fallen the wrong way.
But that takes a stretch. The use of QP alone already negates that notion.
The lack of development of any of a number of players also suggests that's not true. Regardless of the reason.
There are two reasons a player doesn't develop: Coaching or they are incapable. Neither of those too things are solely on the player, because players don't coach themselves nor do the recruit themselves.
On a position by position basis there is only one group of players that has shown any real development, and nobody knows if that's because they were already good; that's the wide receivers.
Running backs: 0 development. Peoples has always been this good. Holston has not developed. McLease has not developed.
QBs: 0 development. As much as I love JJ and like Willis they are probably the QBs they were last year.
O Line: 0 development. EVERYONE but Christian Dairisaw on our O-line is over 300lbs. Why can't we convert short running yardage?
Tight Ends: 0 development. Keene has always had good hands and he's probably a better receiver this year but Cunningham doesn't seem to have improved (certainly not mentally).
I can get into the defense but there are pretty much no players with which you can judge year over year development due to them being first year starters or being out with injuries. If I were to point to a guy that hasn't developed much it would be Reggie Floyd but I can't tell how much that is Floyd vs. him trying to be everywhere at once (and therefore not being anywhere) to try and help a young secondary.
If I were to pick the best position coach at this time it would be Holmon Wiggins.
If I were to switch two guys to make an improvement I would switch Wiggins (who played running back in college) and Burden (who played receiver in college). I really think we have suffered at the running back position because we haven't had a guy who played running back coach that position since Billy Hite. Billy Hite coached running backs from 1978-2010. I don't know much about the Pre-Beamer Hokies but once thing we had in spades when Beamer coached (and up until Shane took over RB coaching) was solid running backs. When I think about teaching someone something very well I often have to rely on my experiences to relate to the student. If you've never had the s**t smacked out of you in the backfield right after a handoff, I'm not certain you have an idea of how fast the game really moves. As a result, I'm not sure you can offer much advice to a struggling back.
Here are running backs that Hite Coached (in no particular order):
Ken Oxendine
Marcus Parker
Dwayne Thomas
Lee Suggs
Kevin Jones
Shyrone Stith
Mike Imoh
Cedric Humes
Branden Ore
Darren Evans
Ryan Williams
David Wilson
Jarrett Ferguson
A good number of which were drafted or played in the NFL.
The point being: Something is not going right. As the big whistle Fuente needs to find a better way to address it. That's what he gets paid $4M a year to do.
How or why you omitted Andre "Afro Thunder" Kendrick from that list is beyond me :-)
But since you brought it up - getting just about any of those guys back as a RB coach would be solid.
I wasn't suggesting we get them back as an RB coach but... Leg for the idea!
As someone who also goes to the basketball games, I certainly understand the sentiment that watching for development can offer a glimmer of hope during losing seasons (I had such hope for the Rolan Roberts and Dennis Mims A10 era). I find myself at a loss many times this year where I do not think I am seeing development game to game or even since last season. It is difficult to ascertain if the players are unable to take the next step forward or if the proper guidance is not there. I do think that football players are more apt to develop from the vantage point of season to season and not game to game. The limited # of games to experience in a given season in football results in a vastly different experience than a basketball player.
I agree 800% that the running back position has really dropped off since Hite retired. This is not a down year or a miss in a couple classes in a row kind of situation.
The funny thing about Billy is his unassuming persona about being the RBs coach. I heard him say many times that he just coached blocking and let runners, run. Maybe he had a great knack for recruiting good backs, maybe he was dismissive of the value of his coaching, maybe a little (or a lot) of both. Either way, I sure wish I could count on the VT backs like you could for roughly 20 straight seasons.
I'm assuming Hite was being humble or he new how to identify a back with good vision. Not sure.
Or he is just awesome.
Oh man that takes me back. My dad would take me to see those teams as a youngin. Always seemed like they were just about to be good. They beat somebody they weren't supposed to at one point, like maybe Xavier? and that was a fun time.
That's just blatantly untrue though.
His usage of QP has been horrible. His offensive half time adjustments have been poor. Play calling has been questionable. Team discipline seems poor.
No coach does everything right in a season. Youth and attrition aside, Fuente at times has not made it any easier due to his coaching decisions and that's pretty blatant to see.
That line of thought should extend to any individual, including Virginia Tech's assistant coaches.
Best line of the article. I didn't hear what Fuente said post game, but I read what Bud said. Bud took ownership of his unit, has all season. Fuente continues to point directly to execution. Even if that is everything that is wrong with the team as a whole and the offense in particular, that still finds its way back to the coaching staff. We are nearing the end of the season and still find ourselves watching a myriad of similar miscues by the same players. This is indicative that something systemic might be going on.
You should consider watching the post-game interviews. In my opinion, both coaches have taken a lot of responsibility. I have felt like some of the articles this season have poached quotes to fit a narrative, that when I go back and watch the interviews, I just don't see. I still think TKP content is first rate, and interview takeaways are highly subjective, so I certainly don't mind reading a different opinion in the articles, just simply think watching interviews for yourself can be informative.
This isn't directed at anyone. Just a general feeling I get from reading a bunch of posts.
Haha fair enough although I'm not sure anyone is calling him out for the most part. He's allowed to have his opinion and others are allowed to have theirs. If we all agreed with each other this would be a pretty lame website.
You forgot the "create an 'Ask TKP' thread" button.
Bud had benefited from having the choice talent of practically every recruiting class with Frank. Great athletes were put at CB for example (see D. Hall as an example). Now, he doesn't have that luxury nor the recruits at the moment. As a result the D has suffered tremendously this year.
it's hard to be any good when both your starting defensive line and your starting offensive line are so banged up. literally the starting lineup we were wanting to have at the beginning of the year is physically not possible now for both side the ball. That will only change once we continue to build up depth. In the long run we will be okay, but we will probably suffer this season and the next. It's important to have the long-term view on situations like this
Well to be fair Farley is on defense, which doesn't seem like a great fit, and it's a rob Peter to pay Paul situation.
My point mainly was that Bud / D was partially awesome during the golden years of Frank because prime and prized athletes went to the D first. The O was just full of hogs to run a strong run game (save for maybe the RBs that were also prime athletes). Bud doesn't have that luxury quite anymore because prize athletes are being distributed to both the O and the D.
Eh, I'm not sure that's a fair comparison. Both Vicks, Tyrod Taylor, Logan Thomas, Andre Davis, Eddie Royal, Ernest Wilford, and not to mention all the running backs over the years (Suggs, KJ, Ore, RMFW, Evans, DW4). Bud has certainly had his fair share of highly-touted recruits, but for the most part has proven to be superior at taking a 2* or 3* and getting 4* or 5* production, whereas most of our talent on offense was highly-touted from day one.
Yeah but the distribution of the names you mentioned have been over a large swathe of years.
Vicks - 1999 and 2005
Logan - 2011
Andre Davis - 1999
Eddie - 2004
Wilford - 2002
Suggs - 1998
KJ - 1998
Ore - 2003
RMFW - 2007
Evans - 2005
DW4 - 2008
I'd even give you Bryan Randall & Sean Glennon too - 2002 & 2004
Defense over the last 15 years has had more studs than the 15 names you've listed there, though I understand it wasn't meant to be a thorough one.
Off the top of my head for D:
Macho Harris
Kendall Fuller
Kyle Fuller
Vince Hall
Xavier Adibi
DeAngelo Hall
Nathaniel Adibi
James Griffin
Richard Johnson
Jimmy Williams
Tim Settle
Vinny Mihota
Kris Harley
Dax Hollifield
Jason Worilds
Corey Moore
Bruce Taylor
Quille Odom
And i'm sure i'm missing more. In any case, I'd argue if you average defensive stars vs offensive stars (or any other metric) you'd see that the D has had more talent funneled to them than the O.
Pretty sure Jason Worilds wasn't even a 3 star out of high school (edit: Forgot Jason changed his name, he was a 4star). I think you'd be surprised how even it would actually come out. I mean think about how many studs Bud has made out of unknown or 3 star/less recruits. Worilds, Chancellor, Grimm, Engelberger, Orion and Cam Martin, Dadi, Roc Carmichael, and etc. Honestly I get more frustrated with the number of big time recruits we bring in for defense that never pan out.
Jason Adjepong (sp?) was a 4-star in 247. Similarly, people would be surprised that Evans was only a 3-star too.
I think you're spot-on about the support issue. There are literally 31 year old people who in their lifetime, at least since they were 5, who have never seen this from Tech football. All they've known as success. Even when we went six and five the teams were very competitive and had close losses to above-average or good teams. Now we're giving up 600 yards to crappy barely FBS teams. Sure there's been some attrition but this is literally generational suckage in football especially defensively. Like it or not a lot of fans are bandwagon type and they will jump off I'm afraid if this continues for another year or two and with the money that were asked to give just to buy season tickets plus the cost of the ticket I don't see how this can be sustained without a quick turnaround
I think what will likely be sparse crowds for both Miami and UVa are going to drive home that apathy could be sinking in for VT football. Really, it was starting to set in during the last couple years under Beamer. People realized there were just other things they'd rather be doing than watch something they've become emotionally attached to wither and die on the vine on a weekly basis. Fuente coming in helped head off that apathy for a couple years, but with the bottom falling out this year, its going to hit, and hit hard. The fact we're already having to resort to mini season ticket plans to try and sell out Lane should have been an ominous omen, and I really do worry about how bad it will get for us in the next couple years. Football drives revenue at Virginia Tech. Financially, we can't afford for it to die. We don't have the income streams to allow that to happen.
With that said, the more and more this goes, the more disappointed I am becoming in some of the rumors and whispers going on around Blacksburg. I thought Fuente was going to come in and fix the offense. I thought he was going to come in and completely overhaul recruiting to help us take that next step. The expectation was that the foundation was set and we just had to build on it. But as time goes, that's just proving to be wrong. The offense is regressing, recruiting only stabilized, with maybe a minimal improvement, and as a program we're spinning tires while we backslide down the muddy hill. And what's most worrisome is that all of this is happening while a curtain of secrecy has been placed around the program at the same time we're seeing an unprecedented rash of players being kicked off the team. And with the program bottoming out, its worrisome that the foundation we thought Beamer had created might crumble if this doesn't get turned around soon. And then, on top of all that, I sign on this morning to see this comment that Mook's dad posted in the other thread, and.... ugh, nothing about any of this right now feels right.
If this is in addition to the Mook situation... Do tell Alum... Don't leave us hanging...
To be fair, Fall Break starts Friday and the Pitt game was sparce last year as well because most of the students were gone. The UVA game will likely be different, but I do expect the Miami game to be thin.
was noting the negative milestones on TV yesterday and "most since 1973" kept popping up. well, 1973 was my Fr year and my intro to VT football. so we may be as bad as we've been in a long time, but I've seen us play worse.
we have a legit chance to win the next couple of games and I'll be watching and cheering for us to do just that. no reason for any Hokie not to do the same.
Joe:
I'm not 100% sure we have a ragequit situation going on but the similarities (at least in mindset) from 03 Pitt to 18 Pitt are there.
Fu gets his Mulligan, he's definitely earned it, probably another one given the state of the cupboard when he got here.
I'm also waiting on that sum of all fears moment when the VT Chapter of the Murray St Alumni Club comes to an end and Bud takes his spot elsewhere.
The one positive to consider this week: Miami has, without a doubt, quit on Richt.
I just counted 23 O lineman 270 lbs plus. Are none of them interested in helping the D line rather than ride the pine?
I think VT fans eyes may be bigger than their stomach.they equate great fan base to great program. Seats in stands does not equal a big time program. I have listened for 5 years how they think they are equal to the Clemson's etc and bigger than the Pitts etc. The last 5 years Pitts ACC record is better than VT. Pitt has 3 NFL players o oline and 2 NFL backs vs A team of rookies. The outcome was likely.
I will offer one observation from the perspective of waning fan support and enthusiasm in the donor-base. My friends and I went to Tech from 1995 to 2000, overlapping with the 1995 season that saw us win the Sugar Bowl versus Texas and culminating in the magical 1999 season. We have been Hokie Club members for the subsequent 18 years and we have climbed our way up to Golden Hokie status over that time, where we sit presently. That puts our four seats in Section 7 on the student side in one of the double-letter rows around the 25 yard line (awesome seats wooo!), where we have been for many years. Our giving level was usually good enough for the Litton-Reaves parking lot in most years. This year, for the first time ever, we were able to select a parking spot in Lot 1, right next to the stadium. We walk past Bruce Smith and Wes Worsham's spots on our way into the stadium. It is great, I never thought we'd be able to get into Lot 1. Our seats haven't really improved much over the past several years, but man I was blow away by the change in parking access.
And here is the wrinkle: there is no way that someone at our donation level should be anywhere close to the big wheels of a major college football program that's firing on all cylinders. And there are open spots, both in the lots, and in front of our season ticket assigned seats. I think a lot of donors are still getting tickets, just not using them, but the perks that make actually going to the game just aren't selling like they used to. This is a leading indicator of something not so good from an overall enthusiasm standpoint where it really matters - the cash money lifeblood of Div-1A programs. And all this happened after the 2017 season that notched 9 wins and a decent bowl destination. I am concerned for the future of the program given this year's results.
And the worst part is I feel my own enthusiasm slipping away. I had guests show up in the second half of the Pitt game and I just walked away from it without really thinking about it. I did an absent minded check of the score later in the evening to confirm my expectation of a blowout loss on the road. Apathy isn't something you can will away... it just... is at a certain point.
It sucks.
I'm too lazy to look it up right now but I think attendance across all college sporting events...When you have the head coach of Alabama, calling out students for not showing up..then i think it may be a people problem, not necessarily a program problem...
Also, that 2003 season went downhill after the "headslap heard around the world" on Wilford...
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BTW, i hate the name of the video...prob posted by a fan LOLUVA
Man that game sucked... I think it was on a Wednesday night too. Horrible all around.
It's a combination of a number of things. I think a lot of people that were in Lot 1 have been moving to the Chicken Hill lot ever since it was paved for a number of reasons, not the least of which are "space for tailgating" and "ease of egress from campus". Yes, the big-money donors are taking the spots around the edge, since those are the best tailgating spots, but after those fill up they start moving to Chicken Hill, since it's only slightly further from the stadium (and possibly closer to certain sections, like SEZ and East stands) and the aforementioned reasons.
Fuente is protecting his buddies Cornellsen and Wiggins. Should have hired a real position instead of promoting the video guy. If there isn't some sort of change in the way Fuente is running the team (Meaning the staff, coaches and players), we're looking at a long 3 years down the road...it always rolls down hill my friends.
I've been happy with the development of the receivers under Wiggins. Seems like Savoy has regressed, but Tre Turn er is coming along nicely, i think Grimsley took a big step this year as well, in addition to Kumah, and Hazleton being leaders of this group...
I have been really trying to be patient and give Fuente the benefit of the doubt but its hard to ignore that beyond the brutal on-field performances the overall Program Management feels like an 18 wheeler without brakes headed for a cliff. Injuries and youth are not the whole story here, there is a cultural problem.
Whether the team has "quit," or not is really not something that anyone outside the locker room can know. But what's not up for debate is this team is getting worse, not better as the season goes on. Youth and injuries certainly haven't helped but youthful teams are expected to get BETTER as the season goes along...not worse. This suggests to me a big disconnect between coaching and players. Despite everything, we still have more pure talent on the field that UVA, yet their Defense plays competent football and we look like utter shit...that's a coaching problem. The fact that we supposedly preach discipline, yet continue to see an endless string of personal fouls and procedure penalties...is a coaching problem. Going "1-0 every week," yet looking like we have no focused gameplan and no ability to make successful in-game adjustments on either O or D...is a coaching problem.
Speaking of coaching, this staff definitely deserves some tinkering in the offseason. Cornelson has done nothing whatsoever to prove his worth as an OC. There is no way you can convince me that we can't find someone better. Hell, even if we somehow manage to find someone as ineffective at playcalling, maybe they will at least be a strong recruiter...which he is not. Mitchell and Burden both also need to do something to prove they belong in my opinion.
The Saban/Belichick secrecy shit with the Program really needs to stop. We need to have open practices, stop trying to "hide" the fucking Spring Game, and entice fans rather than push them away. When you have a Resume like Saban, you get to act smug and chide fans for leaving games early--when you're struggling to stay within 30 points of your Conference opponents, you can't afford to do that. Fan interest = money, and without money, programs die.
To me this offseason will be quite telling as to the future of Fuente and VT football. While we all have heard the story about Franks first years and how VT stuck by him despite a rough start, the other half of that story was that Frank was strongly advised if not forced by the AD at the time to make coaching changes. Fuente needs to take the extra time that we won't have to spend prepping for a bowl this year and figure out what needs to be tweaked. If we see no significant changes to the culture and makeup of VT Football, it could be a long way down.
You got me thinking a bit...
AND
Which kind of speaks to something I have been mulling over in my head. Below is Cornelsen's resume. It's not impressive.
Here are a few thoughts I had based on looking at it.
I am not going over the Memphis stuff because I think most people are familiar with Fuente's run at Memphis and probably unswayed either way with respect to Cornelsen's effect there. It should be noted that other than Northeaster St and VT Cornelsen has never been the sole OC. Memphis other Co/OC was Darrel Dickey and he's now the OC at Texas A&M.
Overall, not very impressive. I doubt many P5 OC's resumes look like this. If your resume can't speak for itself your performance must, even under the most difficult of circumstances.
I would say switch Burden to coaching WRs and Wiggins to coaching RBs and see if there is an improvement. Burden played WR in college and Wiggins played RB in college. Worth a try I think.
As for Mitchell... We lost Torrian Gray partly because Fuente reduced his pay when he brought the new staff on. Few guys tolerate that stuff. We would be in better shape if Gray stuck around.
With respect to Fuente, I think he has potential and this year may be a pivotal year in his development as an executive. That's what he is. For better or worse VT football is an $87M a year business with a $4M dollar a year CEO. That development can mean making changes or better communicating how he's going to fix things.
This is a bad team right now. The coaching may be the cause or the effect...it isnt clear yet. The challenge for this young team is to figure out a way to not let losing become addictive. The challenge for our fanbase is to learn how to lose without becoming irrational. A lot of these questions will not be answered until next season. In the meantime lets remember that fans support players and players reward fans, we must give them at least a small window of time to start living up to their end as we do not falter on ours.
Fuente has mismanaged this thing; he got a strong JUCo QB his first year that took punishing hits, he got enough out of his offensive players in season 2. Now he has to reach deep and CornFU is stumbling all over. Let's just say this, at least on defense its roster turnover and injuries. What is it on offense? We have most of our guys. Oh Ok we are missing Josh Jackson and I get that, he could make all the throws but its not like Ryan Willis is inept, he's playing his ass off and you got some weird play-calling so what then we blame the players for it? This offensive depletion is on the coaches.
Oh and someone mentioned access to the team (Spring game, etc) well nevermind the fans; last year one of the football Alumni complained. What we see on TV is Michael Vick and a few others getting in on the inside but no access to some others. We have to remember some of our ex-players are high school coaches now. They won't recommend a kid to go to VT if the program is in bad shape.
Bud Foster is the face of the program. I'd say put him in charge, get rid of Fuente and this TCU/Memphis junk. He's good for the Big 12, here in the ACC, we need to run the Dang ball.
If there is a good offensive coordinator in the FCS, get him while he is cheap and get rid of Fuente and Cornelsen.
I don't usually comment on here to often, but getting rid of Fuente has to be one of the absolute dumbest things I've read on here. Seriously. Teams take their lumps and in case you haven't noticed, we aren't even as good a program historically as teams that have recently taken some. We'll improve, but firing your year 3 HC after a bad season is just flat out silly. It's not like we have ever consistently competed for natties anyways so I don't get why people seem to have such insane expectations.
I am not necessarily advocating getting rid of our HC, but I don't think the expectation of seeing some (any?) improvement is insane. What people are seeing is a trend, a regression away from improvement. I don't expect a perfect team and didn't think this year would be a good one but something ain't right.
Unless you're arguing that 2017's 9-4 campaign was a significant regression from 2016's 10-4, your claim of a trending regression simply isn't there.
If you are claiming that, I think you're wrong.
Fair point, but taking beginning of 2018 to now don't you think there should have been at least some improvement this season? You don't think the way we've used QP in 3 games thus far has been haphazard if not random, especially plugging him in on 1st and goal after that great Willis run?
On that note one improvement I was happy to see was Willis setting up behind center for that QB sneak to get the 1st down (against BC I think) rather than snapping it 7 yards back in the shotgun as we've done before. I've also seen improvement in Willis since he first started. There was an improvement in D vs. BC as compared to GT where we kept Dillon mostly bottled up. That's all I got tho.
The defense is too young to expect big improvement over the course of the season, I think this is a 2 season rebuild for the defense. I am frustrated with the offense, but it seems like, despite the mediocre playcalling, Willis cannot correctly run a basic read option - I'm not sure how much of that is the coach vs. the player.
Besides recruiting, this is my biggest complaint of the staff this season.
Bud has enough of a resume that I trust him to coach his kids up, it just takes time. I'm concerned about the offensive staff and recruiting.
At least fire Cornelsen. Get us Eastern Kentucky or South Dakota State Offensive Coordinators who have balance in the attack.
This is an odd sentiment to me. Not the "Fire Cornelson" part (though I'm not onboard that particular train yet). What I mean is we brought in Fuente because of his reputation on offense. If we were to terminate Cornelson, I have always just assumed the logical next step is Fuente taking over playcalling duties again for a while until he grooms a replacement OC in his system.
This defense sucks, and the players who are going to improve will improve mostly with film study and S&C in the off-season. Some of the players on defense won't improve because they're going to get replaced as starters. But defense is a mess. I actually don't expect to see major improvement on defense until at least 2020. You don't clean up this clusterfuck of a situation in eleven games.
On offense, I think Fuente and Corn wrangling in Ryan Willis and curing him of his tendency to make boneheaded decisions (like the scramble against ND that resulted in the scoop and score, or throwing to a triple covered Hazelton) while also keeping his QBR one of the highest in the conference shows improvement. There are just inherently limitations to Willis's game, and those limitations prevent him from being brilliant in this system.
As for other positions, OL has gone from a dumspter fire to serviceable in three seasons. We need to get better in old fashion between the tackles running, but in general the improvement has been steep and swift. The same with WR, where Tre Turner has started playing like an upperclassman. And Peoples has been playing out of his mind all season, but specifically in the last couple of games, I've noticed him have some patience and vision waiting for some holes to open, and he's made some really nice cuts against Pitt and BC. He's a better looking RB today than he was against FSU, which to me is the definition of improvement.
The problem is, Willis is still making bad reads that leave a lot of yards and points on the field, and the defense is still a clusterfuck. The individual improvements are overshadowed by the fact that as a whole, the team just isn't very good this year. This offense with a stopgap QB can't carry the load to win shootouts and bail out a bad defense.
Thanks for the post.
Having a veteran give pre-snap advice/read and then execute their responsibilities must improve the learning curve from what we are seeing this year.
The inconsistent performance by the players (due to their own misread, false step, hesitation, over exuberance, etc) must greatly slow down everyone's development.
Out of all the poor play we've seen on defense, that if Floyd has to be the most disappointing, if only because he was called on to be the experienced anchor of this squad.
I agree. I thought Floyd made good reads last year in run support and had trouble turning to run in pass coverage. This year has had too many horrible plays.
Hopefully he is just trying to do too much and play other's position. If that is the case it could go away next year and I will just worry when he is forced to cover a pass.
Hobson's choices abound.
This is 2003 with no Kevin Jones.
Looking at the youth on this team has me thinking that Bear Bryant would even struggle to win with this roster.
My concerns are, how are Fuente and Co. dealing with the youth. The players that transferred.....what are the stories regarding them? T-mac was great his rFr year here, fell in the doldrums with Fuente, now is rocking it at Colorado St. I wonder about Cam Goode....was his laziness that un-correctable? Offensive play calling....we looked great, as Fuente said in 2016, but what's the cause of the malaise now? Do we still have too much youth? If so, part of his billing was that his offense was easy to grasp vs. that of Lefty's.
The one thing about our 2014 season, we played lots of Freshman that year, with enough success that the record didn't necessarily reflect the teams potential. Shai and Marshawn were the best tandem RB's that we've had in nearly a generation, if it wasn't for the fact that their knees gave out. Ford, Bucky, and Cam were flashing brilliance left and right. Where are those types on our roster? Turner is a good receiver, but no one seems to have the "it" factor.
The heavy emphasis on getting 8 receivers like Wiggins has stated....do we really need that many, because in my eyes that goal seems to have not only not been met, but it has come at the expense of recruiting positions of need on defense. It would be one thing if we got 8 guys that were monsters on the field, but we don't have that.
My fear is that Fuente felt the need to go full revamp on offense too soon, instead of making it a gradual thing. We've had winning seasons with horrid offenses, but we've always maintained the house with a killer defense. It's just my perception, but I felt like Fuente gambled poorly on being able to get an offense going at the expense of the defense, and now we have neither.
I could be wrong on all of this, I'm just a fan and alumnus.
Yeah, bothers me too.
Was a little less bothered at the time, accepting the whole "TMac can't block, so he can't play Fuente's system" argument.
Well, supposedly the RBs now can block, but are providing far fewer yards than TMac pre-Fuente, and T-Mac in a different system.
At some point you really start to wonder about the system, and the judgment of the Coaches.
Fuente's history says he's a rock-star hire. He needs to turn this thing around, or he's going to end up featured on VH-1 one-hit-wonders instead of the R&R Hall of Fame.
Boom! There is no question that G5->P5 is a big leap. I think Fuente has the aptitude to be a great HC. The question is he ready to make the leap?
I have had doubts about this system. Loeffler got a hat on a hat to break T-Mac free on runs. I'm not convinced that "make a man miss" is a viable tactic in P5 football. When you are talking about ACC defenses, how many line backers and safeties can't consistently tackle in the open field? Very few. How many ACC defenses and defensive coordinators are completely fooled by our "mis-direction". It would seem not many as most of our success is contested (meaning covered) passes. If they were susceptible to these things that often they'd be at a G5 school... Like... Say... Memphis.
Evans' rushing numbers are proof the scheme wasn't fooling anyone.
One thing that concerns me is how many people will show up to these last 2 games. I think Miami will be alright, probably a lot like Pitt last year. The UVA game though... being the day after thanksgiving with students home for the holidays. These could be 2 of the worst attendances we've had in a long time.
Scott Stadium South
With Thanksgiving break starting Friday and the early UVA game on the Friday, this will be the worst two games in attendance that we have had for a while, especially in the student sections. For those of us who have to travel distances each week, the Black Friday date really sucks especially at 3:30. That's just not enough time to "get right" as CFB always said.
It's it great that Coach Frank Beamer and College Football have the same initials?
Also, watching the Monday Press Conference Fuente is numb. On All Offensive questions, he looked down and said we need to improve here and there....body language was very negative.
I wouldn't mistake reticence for numbness. I didn't watch the presser, but what you're describing is a man who knows what he wants to say, and knows not to say it.
Fuente has proven he knows how to win. And we gave him the contract extension because of it. He will get the job done. If he doesn't, then I trust Whit will make the right call down the line.
In the meantime, instead of worrying so much about the coaches, I would challenge fans to worry about themselves. Take a hard look in the mirror and ask yourself if you might be a fair weather fan. Are we all a little less excited about each game? Sure. But going to games and watching games is mostly about drinking too much, eating too much, and hanging out with the best kind of people: Hokies. As long as the team is running onto the field, we should be using it as an excuse to make it an event. And I fully include myself in this challenge, as my own game day activities have become a little less well planned, but it's something I would like to rectify.
2018 Virginia Tech Football
about sums it up, now lets have a little contest: What do you put on that rock to really drive the point home? Inexperience? Preparation?
A Monarch
From Fuente's presser today.
I'm not even sure what to take from this other than confused look and numb like OP stated.
I don't get that. They were prepared, but they weren't prepared enough to respond to adversity?
If they weren't ready to get punched in the mouth by a good team and be ready to respond, they weren't prepared for that game.
it's circle talk. a whole lot of nothing. words to fill space
It certainly doesn't do much to inspire confidence. Essentially saying, the kids did everything we asked them to, they got curb-stomped, and then looked at me like WTF??
Its really sounding more and more like a staff that is rapidly losing the support of the players. Not Great, Bob.
The past few days, I've really been trying to put this season and where we are now in context with the overall direction of the program. I've been trying to rationalize that either this year is an aberration/growing pains and Fuente is the guy to take us to the next level, or that we frankly will never be the caliber program that can routinely compete for conference and national titles, so expectations should be tempered and adjusted. I hear a lot of people speaking to our limited resources, that we consistently punch above our weight class and that giving needs to increase (it does overall). I hear a lot of things like the staff just needs time, time to build the program their way, time to recruit their guys. I hear a lot of trying to justify where we are now with some glimmering light at the end of the tunnel, because we should trust in Fu and that we are on the right path.
I've been following VT football since I was just a little kid. I watched the meteoric rise during the mid-late 90s, saw us become a routine national-caliber program throughout the 2000s, and saw us build a consistent winning brand of football.
I think what has caused a lot of my frustration to reach a boiling point is that, looking back over the past 10-12 years, I feel I have watched the slow decay and erosion of the product we put on the field. Problems started to become apparent in the mid 2000s with the Beamer era. There was a clear sense that, although still in the national conversation, we were a step behind what it took to be a true championship program. We hung our hats then on 10 wins, winning the ACC, and making a BCS bowl (not necessarily winning those, unfortunately). Problems with coaching and recruiting continued to worsen, and by 2012, it was evident that we had lost our grip on the ACC. The rallying cry became bowl eligibility, a winning season, and beat UVa. Here we are now in year 3 of the tenure of the most critical coaching hire in VT athletics since Frank Beamer, and we are legitimately talking about losing all of that. The excitement of where we were heading following that 2016 ACCCG performance seems light years away now.
We are in an era where alumni, donors, fans are all asked to give more, contribute more, spend more. Long time VT diehards who have traveled to games, given time and money and watched this program once swing with the heavyweights now are quite possibly looking at the worst VT football season in the past 25 years. I shake my head wondering how the hell we got to this point over the last three years.
Fuente may prove to be a great coach at this level. But we also need to consider the possibility that he also very well may not. We pride ourselves so much on making the best hires, getting the best fit and person for the job. But even great people still fail. Recruiting is nowhere near where it needs to be for us to turn the corner and compete with the top. This is a simple fact. We have landed some great individual prospects in recent years, but there are glaring holes in the roster that will take several years to fix. Some can be contributed still to the Beamer era, but not enough has been done to correct it by the new regime.
We simply don't fundraise at a high enough level to support a staff and recruiting operation to compete at this highest level. I question the support staff and infrastructure we have in place and if we are truly prepared as an organization to effectively market and build this program financially. I think fans have been in a wait and see mode largely with the new staff. With Clemson's rise, there was a process that took many years to get them where they are today. But if you look successively at each year, they were gradually building upon the past year in wins, recruiting, and momentum. I don't see the steady progress, the building blocks toward the final product we all desire. I see several good steps, several that could be better, and several that are taking the program a step backwards. The effort is not coordinated, and I feel we are trending in the wrong direction as a program in year three. Fan apathy is beginning to creep in, and that is the absolute worst thing a program under development can have happen. For many fans, I think not enough progress is being made relative to the trajectory and direction we were all sold on.
Fuente isn't going anywhere this year, that's obvious. But he will now have to make very tough decisions moving forward and truly assess the state of this program. It's time to put our faith in him as the offensive mind and program architect we all were led to believe he is to the test. Regardless of how these last few play out, many long months lie ahead.
I appreciate the well thought out and nuanced post, it brings up some good points, especially for those that have been following the Hokies over the past 20 years. I agree with you that we aren't aren't set up financially and with staff support to compete with the big dogs.
The recruiting staff we have is top notch but if about half the size of a Clemson or Georgia. Another unfortunate aspect is that we haven't been able to hire coaches that have a history of great recruiting.
I disagree with your assertion with the fact that we aren't recruiting at a level competitive of winning the ACC or making the playoffs for two reasons: 1. Our 2019 avg. recruit ranking is going to end higher than it has ever been before, with the the 2018 class coming in 3rd overall behind the 2013 class. I know recruiting rankings have only been accurate for 10 years tops , but this is a trend that is looking upwards each year.
This is really more like a year 1 with Fuente, with pretty much all of the talent Beamer left gone, but with Fuente's guys too young to win us more than 6-7 games.
IMO, our current recruiting level is good enough to consistently put us in a position to win the Coastal and have a chance to compete with Clemson for the ACC. More times than not, winning the ACC will put you in conversation for the playoffs. If we play Clemson 10 times with our current recruiting level, I think they win 6-7 times. What we are producing now will be good enough to give us a chance every few years to compete nationally, and this is assuming consistent player development, coaching, and execution. This is also assuming attrition doesn't hit us too hard in any one year again moving forward. We simply don't have the layered depth to be able to reload every year and match what Clemson is doing.
I don't think we are or will be in a position to recruit where we can compete as a top 5-10 ranked national program every single year without a complete overhaul financially and big institutional changes.
....assuming all else remains equal. The second that Miami starts playing like they recruit, that strategy goes out the window. As I've said before, we're singing a very different tune about how effective our recruiting is if we had been originally placed in the Atlantic with FSU/Clemson rather than the Coastal with Miami/GT.
Completely agree. And as I mentioned, this also assumes we are evaluating, developing, and coaching the talent we acquire at a very high level with great consistency. This also assumes we don't have attrition hit too hard in any given year. And assuming we can pull that off (I don't believe we can to that extent), that whole blueprint is worthless the second Miami gets its act together or a couple other Coastal schools hit the jackpot with a strong coaching hire.
We can't operate at a level good enough to just get by in our current circumstances, we need to go all in and be the absolute best VT can be, period. I don't think we are close to achieving that effort.
This is the most depressed I've been about the program since 1992, when I entered Tech as a freshman and we had Maurice DeShazo as QB. We went 2-8-1 that year. But I felt like that team was competitive in most games and never quit. I hate to use the quit word with this team, but there is a reason that 97 yard TD run broke a school record - it requires the defense to mentally check out as well as be physically over matched.
Over the years since then I watched the program get better and better and gain prominence and respect. I forgot what it was like to turn on a game and feel we have no chance at winning. Even when we played the top teams like USC, LSU, Alabama, Ohio State, etc. I always felt like we had a chance to win if we played to our potential. With this team, ever since the ODU game, it feels pretty hopeless.
I don't know who is to blame, but things need to change fast. As fans Hokie nation has too much pride to allow the program to fall this hard .
Joe, are you just going to ignore that Fuente "fired" his best friend before the season started?
I can't speak for Joe, but his hand was forced on that one. If Fuente didn't do it, Whit would have.
The way he framed that quote, he made it seem like the assistant coaches were above reproach. Mook, Adonis etc. deserved to be thrown off the team for not meeting standards just like Galen Scott deserved to be thrown off the team for not meeting standards.
His best friend fired himself sleeping with a married women multiple times over the year while on recruiting trips..
The adultery part isn't the reason he got "fired". It was the "diverting money from Virginia Tech's football program to fund an extramarital affair" part.
Hey Joe, just curious, what general trends do you see on the website traffic following big wins/losses or in the middle of good/bad seasons?
Anecdotal, but I know that I avoid Twitter/tkp//r/CFB after losses and in general during low points in the season. Might be reflective of fan excitement/apathy as a whole.
If it were up to me, I would replace Mitchell and Corny.
This is Mitchell's third season has a coach here and the corners are embarrassingly bad. Getting burned in man is one thing but seeing them so lost in zone coverage every week is unacceptable. I still have faith in Farley being a good cover corner (he's gotten worlds better in coverage) but other than that, I haven't seen any corners make progress over the course of the year. The lack of physicality is more of a personnel issue to me, but that falls into his recruiting ability. A program of our caliber should be able to handle losing two starting caliber players without seeing such an incredibly massive drop-off.
Corny just does not have any redeeming qualities. He's in over his head as a playcaller, moment of the quarterbacks in the program have noticeably progressed since their arrival, and in 2020 there is a real possibility that our depth chart will be QP backed up by a true freshman.
Who makes that call?
Corny is Fuente's guy, and based on the lack of accountability he's taken for the struggles this year I don't see him making changes.
I don't think Fuente would make them on his own. If it happens then I would bet Whit makes the "recommendation" to do so. From what I understand Whit is not a patient guy when it comes to underperformance.
You know his phone is ringing off the hook these days.
Not sure how you blame this all on Mitchell? His recruits are either hurt (Webb, Watts) or freshmen. His recruits shouldn't even be seeing the field this early, nor are they at a point in their development to be physically ready. Two of the biggest offenders, Quillen and Rodgers were Beamer recruits that stayed on.
I don't think it was part of anyone's plan to thrust Waller or Quillen into the role they're having to play now. Waller was for sure headed towards a redshirt and Quillen was a special teams player.
The dismissals of Mook and Adonis you can't really plan for in the recruiting cycle. Had they known in two years they'd be kicking off two of the best defensive players, maybe they would have prioritized cornerback in the 2017 class instead of the 2018 class.
All this blabbering on about how a program of our stature should be able to withstand this kind of attrition on one side of the ball is coming with an intense shade or maroon and orange glasses.
Farley is one if his recruits, is he not? And because Watts got hurt in his 8th game we should discount how poorly he played over the first 7?
As a coach you have two primary tasks: coach and recruit. If you're good at your job, either you coach players to get ready to play or you recruit players that are good enough that the coaching isn't as imperative to put a good product out there. Either way, the corners he has put on the field this year have not performed at an acceptable level. No one is expecting us to put two All-Americans at this point, but to get likely the worst CB play in VT history out of two 2nd year players and a 3rd player player when you've been around for nearly two full seasons is a big red flag to me.
He is and he's the best corner we have.
This won't get anywhere, so we'll just agree to disagree on this one.
Wait a second...
Maybe it's been mentioned, but I just realized we've had two games in a row with Pitt where a key player blew a knee. Last year, Vinny... this year, House.
Goddammit, Pitt.