Since we still have one more game at Marshall this weekend and a possible bowl game, no changes to the football staff will be announced before then.
Does anyone believe there will be any shake up after this season? Changing responsibilities or bringing in entirely new people? Personally, I don't think we'll see any change, but I do think Fuente will sit down with each coordinator and position coach to determine what needs to be done differently to better prepare for next season. If some of the same problems occurring this season happen again next year, there might be a different discussion.
Thoughts?
Forums:
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Comments
Other than me wanting Burden back to WRs. No.
There will be no changes IMO
Fuente hires Paul Johnson as OC to finally bring a successful running game to Blacksburg...
I just threw up in my mouth a little typing that.
I don't think there'll be any changes. Look at where we had weaknesses.
DL: Depth issues and injuries. Lots of underclassmen trying to adapt with an ever-changing lineup.
DB: New Coach hired less than 2 months before the season started. Lots of Underclassmen due to injuries
RB: Inconsistent playcalling in the run game.
OC: Questionable playcalling, but had an injury at QB early in the season.
Was he a new hire, or a stop-gap? Is it likely Fuente will hire a new DB coach in the offseason?
Nix is the Safeties coach and Mitchell is the CB coach. Mitchell has been around since Fuente was hired. He came over from WVU.
Mitchell is rumored to be gone
according to?
I think there will be little, if any, turnover. And I'm prepared to be underwhelmed by it if there is. Hope I'm proven wrong though.
How much turnover are you seeking?
Next year we can have all of these conversations with valid data behind experienced players in the system. Until then it's just hard for me to get that moved in any direction that anything is broken or fixed. But we do need something to talk about on the internet so by all means carry on haha.
I brought this up during a live Q&A with Andy Bitter and you would've thought I asked him if he thought all one-legged puppies should be thrown into a swift river.
Can you elaborate?
I basically just asked youth and attrition aside, did he foresee any changes in personnel at the end of the season to which he essentially replied 'no' and that he didn't see Cornelsen going anywhere and that Fuente called him "one of the up and coming OC's in all of college football". I said that may be true, but I also remembered when my grandma told me I was the best soccer player in the world.
Andy's a great guy and a great writer. He wasn't bitter that I asked, and certainly wasn't rude (he even said that he was legitimately curious about where I thought a change would be), but he definitely defended the entire coaching staff pretty vehemently.
I read that, he didn't defend them at all, he just used a direct quote from Fuente to explain the coaching staff's likely position.
Without directly quoting the back and forth, he went through just about every position coach and gave reasons why he thought each was staying put, but you're certainly entitled to have your own interpretation.
For the record, I gave an opinion -- informed by how I think Fuente thinks -- of why I think there won't be any changes. I happen to agree with a lot of them (Bud hasn't forgotten how to coach, Corny did a good job when he had some older, more reliable players). Ones that people might think need to change (Lechtenberg, perhaps) I just don't see Fuente changing, since he hired him for a very specific reason last offseason.
I don't see where I said you didn't give that opinion. I'll thank you again for your opinion now just as I did when you answered my question over on the Athletic.
I know. I just wanted to be clear I didn't answer from a perspective of what I think should happen to the staff as much as what I think Fuente thinks about the situation and how he's spoken about his coaching staff over the years.
Regarding Cornelsen, I think there's a built-in understanding of the ebbs and flows of being an offensive coordinator, since Fuente's worn that hat before. Sometimes things can be out of your control. It doesn't necessarily mean you're a bad play-caller. I think that plays into his thinking for why there won't be any drastic changes (or any at all) this offseason.
I hear you and understand. Always good to hear your perspective; especially considering you've got a much better pulse than any of us here as far as spending time around the coaching staff and players. Thanks for your thoughts.
I don't think there will be any planned turnover by Vt. There just isn't enough of a sample size combined with what we have this year to initiate things on our end. You never know if a staff member gets poached away though - seems unlikely but possible.
There should be changes. There won't be changes
Fuente, I think, like all humans, is blinded by devotion to friendship. As a character trait that's not necessarily a bad thing. But as a head football coach in the P5 it can spell real trouble. He was specifically hired to bring offense to Blacksburg. He hasn't truly delivered. If he doesn't make changes to his offensive staff (and there's very little reason to believe that he will) and the offense doesn't take a BIG step forward in 2019 his reputation and job are going to be on the line.
Either he knows this but is confident that his staff as it currently is structured will deliver the offense we've been waiting for or he's blinded by friendship and can't see that his staff isn't up to the task.
I would be very surprised if any changes are made this year. I'm of the opinion that if this offense is still relatively pedestrian next year then someone has to go. If I'm Whit I would apply that pressure on Fuente this year, behind closed doors, and then next year if Cornelson isn't on the chopping block after a disappointing offensive season Fuente should be. I'm not a big fan of coordinators becoming scapegoats but they are also paid money to produce. If they don't pull their weight the head man needs to recognize that. If he can't, cut the head off the snake.
The interesting thing about Fuente is that his offenses as HC have not lived up to the TCU OC hype. Look at these S&P+ Offensive ratings:
2009 - 11
2010 - 13
2011 - 13
2012 - 117
2013 - 102
2014 - 71
2015 - 27
2016 - 51
2017 - 96
2018 - 64
(TCU - 2009-2011) (Mem. 2012-2015) (VT 2016-2018)
But you also have to look at the QB as well:
2009-10 - Andy Dalton
2011 - Casey Pachall
2012 - Jacob Karam
2013-15 - Paxton Lynch
2016 - Jerrod Evans
2017 - Josh Jackson
2018 - Josh Jackson/Ryan Willis
No real change between Dalton and Pachall at TCU.
First year at Memphis with a Junior QB who transfered from Texas Tech. Then he gets Paxton Lynch for the next three years who progresses from 102nd nationally to 27th nationally.
First year at VT with a JUCO transfer, second year with a QB he didn't recruit, third year same QB gets hurt, transfer from Kansas takes over.
I would say if we could get some stability at the QB position those numbers will get better over time.
That suggests there is no "system" just good QB's making plays. We already had that at VT.
We could say the same thing about Beamer offenses just sub in Michael Vick or Tyrod Taylor.
MV had the benefit of an OC that drew up plays around his athleticism. TT's success was basically due to his ability to extend plays with his feet, but there wasn't really a coherent gameplan.
With Cornelsen, you see flashes of a gameplan, but we haven't had a QB that can execute it. This is partially due to failures in recruiting, and partially due to an apparent inability to adjust his gameplan to the athletes we have on the roster, aside from the first year when Jerod was used as a smaller version of Logan Thomas.
I feel like Tyrod would have been the perfect QB in Fuente's system.
I feel like Logan Thomas would have crushed in Fuente's system as well.
I never was much of a Thomas fan other than liking that he was big and and easy first down on 3rd and short He was an interception throwing machine and never had better than 60% completion percentage and it sure looked like over 4 years he never progressed past one read. I don't think he would have fit into this system good at all.
I went back about a year or 2 ago and watched all the ints he through his senior year (except western carolina, couldn't find tape). He had 7 Ints off the hands of his receivers, 1 that the reciever ran the wrong route, and one legitimate over throw int.
His receivers sucked his senior year. He looked like he got better that year but no one to help him out.
Without doing the work you did, I will just point out that an INT "off the hands of his receiver" may still be the QB's fault. If you're 10 yards away and LT throws the ball as hard as he can, it may be within reach, but you ain't catching it.
"If you can touch the ball you better fucking catch it."
"When it's in the air it's yours."
I guarantee you any p5 wr coach worth his salt doesn't give two shits how fast or hard that ball is coming, it's the wide receiver's job to catch it.
Trying to shift that blame to Logan Thomas just looks petty. Was he a great QB? No. But if he's hitting receivers in the hands and they're not catching it I'm not blaming him. That's bullshit.
If I was the WR coach I would agree, 100%: it's his job to catch whatever is thrown his way. But if I was the QB coach, I would tell the QB it's his job to throw a ball that can be caught.
There were a few that would have hit the reciever in the facemask had they not deflected, most made me face palm the reciever.
Counterpoint: MV7's receivers call a lot of balls thrown by him at a million miles per hour.
I was standing near the back end of the North EZ just prior to halftime of the 1999 Syracuse game; I was in the alumni band, readying for halftime. The good guys had the ball at about the 15 yard line. After a snap and a quick QB rollout, an MV7 incompletion zipped past me about 8 feet to my right, making the most intimidating audible woosh noise I've ever heard a football make. Just about everyone in the area gasped a Neo-like "Whoa!"
He struggled as a QB but how can you not be a LT fan?
He sacrificed where he wanted to play to help VT get through those years at QB because we had nobody. Hell, he was straight up lied to in recruiting to get him here. Then had absolute shitastic QB coaching that f-ed his progression up. LT deserves admiration in my book. Huge fan.
Logan always seemed to struggle with short passes, though, didn't he? Threw them too hard. To run a dink-and-dunk passing game (that's what this is supposed to be, right?) he would have to learn not to throw every pass like a 70-yard frozen rope.
ftfy
That's college football though. At the P5 level, the players (i.e. the athletic talent) is more important than the system. And, unless there is a serious competency gap with the coaching, talent is more important than coaching.
Very true... It's not about the x's and the O's it's about the Jimmy and the Joe's. 😊
there is zero context to these numbers though.
At TCU he came into a program that was already steady under Patterson and took them to a new level.
At Memphis he took over one of the worst programs in D1 football and turned them into winners capable of beating P5 programs in 4 years. So 2012 and 2013 are severe outliers. 2014 is progress, 2015 profit.
At VT he took over a stable program that had emptied its cupboard in last few seasons of Beamer's era and was on a downhill slide. He brought in transfers, JUCOs and recruited as best he could to keep the program winning.
I honestly don't see any reason to believe he has not lived up to the TCU OC hype. In fact what it shows is that with a program that has stability he will make them ballers, with a program that is a dumpster fire he can turn it around and make them winners and now at VT we are looking for the same, but many are unwilling to give him the time.
As a business man, you'd bet the farm on him fixing this?
No, but he gets another year of tinkering. After that either we will have improved or something will need to change.
If I am in the business of Virginia Tech football then yes, as I have stated before, I am looking at long term strategies. Selection of our coach is critical because VT needs someone that can (re)build a culture into a modern P5 program. That doesn't happen in a couple years. Personally I believe Fuente can do it.
Before I begin, let me just say I'm not in any camp that wants to get rid of Fuente or Cornelesen. Sometimes the hard times breeds the best out of people and success ensues. I believe (without any real evidence) that Fuente, Cornelesen, and Foster will have an unprecedented attention to "fixing" VT this offseason, which should yield a better season in 2019 and hopefully a very memorable season in 2020.
With that said, there is literally no justification that he has lived up to the TCU OC hype. Having 1 year of top 50 Offense in 7 years post 3 years of top 13 offenses is not living up to the same expectations. Are there reasons and excuses? Of course, but he hasn't overcome any hindrances put in front of him. If he was truly living up to the hype, he would overcome hindrances (both major and small) and put a product on the field that statistically yields an offense better than expectations.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "the TCU OC hype". If the folks at Memphis thought, "this guy is the OC for a top-15 offense, so if we hire him as our OC, we will have a top-15 offense," then I agree, he has not lived up to that.
But if they thought, "this guy knows how to coach a top-15 offense... maybe he can take our 117th-ranked offense and get us within shouting distance of the top 25" then he lived up to the hype.
And if Whit Babcock thought, "this guy took a 117th-ranked offense to 27... Next year we're likely to fall to pretty close to 100 ... maybe he can get us back to something respectable" then he hasn't lived up to it yet, but he may in the next two years.
And you feel he didn't do this at Memphis?
That program was one of, if not the, least desirable jobs when he took it and turned it around. He may not have produced the #11 offense but he completely changed that program holistically into a high performance offense.
The only discernible difference to me from Stiney/Lefty to Corn/Fu has been a few more jet sweeps and being a tad more aggressive in press coverage throwing the ball. That's it to my eye. We still have no running game from the RB position, we still run way too many scared QB draws in critical situations, and we still struggle to score TDs in the red zone. Short yardage beyond QB sneaks not great either.
eeeeaaasy tiger, I'm all for piling on cornelson but Stiney was in a different bracket altogether. Dude's plays had little to no thought to them other than basically everyone run around and try to get open. Lefty and corn/fu at least both had concepts designed to get players open regularly and to attempt to take advantage of what the defense is giving us. Me thinks you're forgetting the O'cainspring years and the absolute shit show that was play calling week to week. Recency bias is setting in a bit
While I largely agree with you here, our offense (statistically) was actually very good in the "red zone" this year. Now if you extend the "red zone" to the 50 yard line, thats a different story.
This improvement over 4 years at perennial bottom feeder Memphis is why Fuente has hype. Memphis was about as bad of a program as it gets before he arrived. Memphis is still better to this day than before he arrived, which may or may not (you decide) have something to do with the players he recruited and coached up being upperclassman now.
Is there any reason Whit couldn't just take it upon him to let assistant coaches go?
Whit shouldn't make hiring decisions for a head coach. Whit doesn't know football, he knows fundraising, budgeting, etc. It's his job to make sure Fuente has a pulse on the fanbase, not to make decisions for him.
It's definitely the former. Fuente trusts his staff, he just believes that with all the shit luck this team has had this year, bad results were inevitable. Based on his comment about before the UVA game (paraphrasing - "If they're going to beat us soon, it better be this year"), he clearly believes this year is a blip on the radar. I hope he's right.
Hmmm....this sounds familiar. Kinda like a former head coach, maybe?
Fuente is incredibly confident that he has the staff and the pieces in place to take this team to the next level in the next few years. The unfortunate thing is, VT as an administration and fan base know nothing but unwavering support and trust for our head coach. We just went through 29 stable and consistent years where Beamer built this program and carved out a legacy. We have put a tremendous amount of faith in Fuente that he is the guy, and given him near unilateral authority to build the program as he sees fit. I'm sorry, but I think that was incredibly risky. The guy only had four years of HC experience before coming here - and he gets this job and is suddenly the unquestioned savior of our program? I'm not saying the AD should meddle in affairs, but we also shouldn't let him drag on 3,4,5 years with a staff that has a lot of questions about their ability to get it done at this level.
But the fact remains, he and his staff aren't going anywhere. We went all in on Fu, and for better or for worse, he is going to lead this program the way he wants. I've said numerous times now, he very well may lead us back to the top, but we should prepare ourselves for the possibility that he will not, and stubbornness and unwavering trust in him will cost the program over the next several years. I expect no changes. Now let's see if he can get it done as he expects.
Our fans know nothing but unwavering trust? ...Is there a secret forum that I don't have access to where this is the case? This is literally the first year where Fuente hasn't exceeded expectations and a vocal faction of the fan base wants him fired over it.
I've seen many people post something like this
but have literally not seen a single post saying Fuente should be fired. I don't really ever duck into game threads, so maybe they're there?
Wanting better, more experienced assistants and calling for the HC's head are nowhere near the same thing.
You must not be on social media.
When can we bring in D. Hall or Kam C. to coach the secondary?
I'm not sure about right now, but I'd love to get Hall on the staff after he's gotten some experience at a G5/FCS school. He was an awesome leader on the Redskins secondary and would love to see how that translates to coaching.
FTFY
Why does everyone want to hire people with no coaching experience?
No risk-it no biscuit
Scared money don't make money
True- and I don't understand how anyone can make a blanket statement that a NFL Pro Bowler cannot coach simply because he has not been a GA, etc. It has to be taken on a case by case. Who knows if Deangelo Hall has teaching acumen? In his case here's a guy who played multiple positions, absorbed teaching from multiple coaches for 14 years but we're going to just decide he can't coach?
IMO, I don't think they're implying that, just simply saying it wouldn't be wise to just take this leap of faith on someone with no coaching experience. It's no different than when employers look to fill a big role, they want someone with direct experience. Deangelo Hall may very well have teaching acumen or he may not but without having that experience, you can't tell.
For what it's worth, the University of Maine hired Torrian Gray right out playing pro football in 2001. He coached for 2 years at Maine, 2 years at UConn, and two years for the Chicago Bears before coming to Tech. I believe he (with help from Bud) helped earned us the name of DBU. Not sure of the conclusion here, but someone had to take a chance on him. I wonder if he'd be interested in coming back to DBU?
Lorenzo Ward had some great DB play too.
I've been preaching this for years. No one ever understands. I've seen folks here clamor for Vick to be our OC, Kevin Jones to be our RB coach. I think I've even seen people suggest Isaiah Ford come back to coach WRs.
At a minimum they should have at least one year as either a GA or analysts with a college or NFL team.
Loving these Condoleezaa Rice to the Browns rumors. Can't even imagine where these might have started...
I need to see Condi and Baker Mayfield talking shop on the sidelines.
In all seriousness, Sam Rogers should definitely have a place on this staff if he wants it. Maybe not as a full-on assistant coach, but I'm sure there's a role for him to start out in that would be immensely helpful to the team.
Maybe in Conditioning but other than that he's Grad-level right now
Because they have elite level experience. A position coach isn't really scheming, just teaching technique
Yea, but it's really tough for elite players to teach technique. Often times elite players have such an natural skillset that they can't explain what/how/why the do something, they just do it.
Obviously there are exceptions, but I think this is pretty common not just across different sports, but in most things in life. The smartest person in a classroom is often the worst teacher.
I see your point but disagree.
I don't think elite players are less likely to be able to teach technique, I just think teaching is harder than most people think. One key element is having the students respect, which is easier for an elite athlete. Another is being able to empathize with the student, both to understand what they need to move forward, how to motivate them. It also really helps if you come across as caring about them personally. And then you have to have the knowledge, both of what to do when, how, and why. Finally, you have to convey this is an understandable and rememberable fashion, which can be different each student's learning type.
The smartest person in the classroom often has issues with more than one of these, as does the least smart.
Of course, for a coach we also want a salesperson for recruiting, but one that fits in with an honesty based VT football culture (no slime bags). Few elite athletes have ever needed to truly develop this skill.
Finally, if you do find someone who does all these things, how do you keep them from moving for a better opportunity or better pay? Loyalty to VT, or the staff, for providing them a chance may be the best way, but to get his you have be the one develops them, not the one stealing the developed talent from elsewhere. If some one leaves for greener pastures once, they likely will again if they see a greener pasture.
They have experience doing something not teaching it or following NCAA rules or any of the other things a college coach has to do. Find me an example of a former player stepping DIRECTLY into a position coaching role at a P5 university.
I wouldn't bring them in directly as a position coach but as a QC guy first. that seems to be the most common route outside of GAs.
Mike Vrabel started as a LBs coach at OSU as his first coaching position
So now we have one, who took the job when Tressel was fired and The new short term HC needed someone. There is a reason he might be the only one in modern P5 history.
True, but Meyer kept him on after he was hired as DL coach. Obviously I think it's more about the fact that he's clearly a good coach as he's now an NFL head coach.
I think it would be more likely to happen if there was an opening at VT as opposed to someone being fired to make way for DHall or whoever. Since it didn't happen last off-season when Nix was hired, I don't see it happening. It would probably have to be Bud making the recommendation since he would know the former defensive players well.
Dre Bly was just hired by UNC to coach DBs. I guess he has "some" coaching experience with the Alliance league (or whatever it is called).
And on that note - UNC fans are wringing their hands over that hire, along with the other hires from Mack. There might be great candidates out there (remember when it was going to be Chizik/KK, lol), but getting them to your school and to fit in with your staff is tough.
whos dre bly? - any recruit that he tries to talk to. (and dre bly was damn good) kids know who D.hall is though. not just in VA.
Sidenote: remember when we were all excited about how aaron morehead could flash his superbowl ring when he walked into recruits houses? dre bly has some of those, and he actually contributed to those teams. hes also from VA beach.
don't look now but I think they are right. this is a really good hire for them as a DB coach. and bad news for us.
Based on what? That's the thing when you hire someone who has never coached or worked for a college team, there is nothing to base the expectations on.
Edit: He had coached before, but still.
Ben Taylor came to Bridgewater when I played to get his first two years of coaching experience....He was a great coach from Day 1.
He was also on my intramural basketball team, played lock down defense ....and whooped everybody's ass!
The majority of our staff not having any P5 experience before VT is bad enough. We don't need to do this, also. Coaching experience is important.
4 of the 10 coaches worked at P5 before VT, Foster and Wiles, Corn and Wiggins only coached at G5 or lower or had a GA year at a P5 only coaches to have neither is Burden and Lech. So yes if you don't include Wiles and Foster your technically correct.
Fuente - first P5 experience (TCU was not P5 while he was there)
Lech - first P5 experience
Corn - 1 year as a GA, no actual P5 coaching experience
Vice - 1 year as a GA, no actual P5 coaching experience
Wiggins - first P5 experience
Burden - first P5 experience
Nix - was out of football, some P5 experience
Mitchell - some P5 experience
Shibest - significant P5 experience
Wiles & Foster - significant P5 experience
for 6/10 guys, VT is their first P5 coaching gig, and overall, that's not a lot of experience across the board at this level. Bringing in former players now, giving them their first coaching jobs, and hoping for success is something we can't really afford to do with our current staff.
The irony of people with zero experience in college athletics essentially saying they know more about building a college football program and an athletic department than an ACC head coach and Athletic director while simultaneously complaining about how inexperienced our coaching staff is if pretty amusing.
Edit: The fact that Shibest has 11 years coaching experience in the SEC and you only consider that as "some experience" really sums all this up for me.
Don't forget wanting ex-players with zero coaching experience to replace those "inexperienced" coaches.
So you need to have coached or run a program to say something as groundbreaking as 'experience is important?' Who in this entire thread made the claim they 'knew more about building a college football program than the AD?'
I don't have the ability to do the research now, but I'd be pretty surprised to see if 60% of the staff of any top 25 program (where we all expect to be), is working in their first P5 job.
Additionally, it's also ironic that we're talking about replacing the under-performing, inexperienced coaches we already have on our payroll with former players who have never coached. It's one of the reasons why we're having this discussion to begin with.
Its not just this one topic. This board is full of "why is Fuente/Whit doing this... he should definitely being doing this instead". I was just pointing out the overall irony of complaining about experience on a website that specializes in inexperienced people implying they know more than the experienced people. It's America though, you're free to say whatever you want on the internet.
Fun Fact: Clemson has built their dynasty with a head coach that had zero head coaching experience and had only been a position coach prior to taking the job. His OC was a high school coach literally 2 years before taking the job and when he left the new Co-OCs only D1 experience was being position coaches at Clemson starting in 2008/2010.
You shouldn't make the claim if you can't do the research. I decided I'd do it but realized it's absolutely critical to look at the hiring approach to even make an accurate comparison, as hiring a former P5 coach is much more likely to get you a staff with more P5 experience compared to hiring a G5 coach.
Anyway, the very first team I looked at has a coaching staff where 70% of the coaches are working in their first P5 job AND the P5 experience of the other 3 coaches totaled only 9 years. Iowa State coaching staff
The second team I looked at has a coaching staff where 80% of the coaches are working in their first P5 job AND one of the coaches with P5 experience has only 3 years. Syracuse coaching staff
The entire point is somewhat ludicrous anyway because two of the coaches that people are complaining about the most are Nix and Mitchell- two of the staff members with prior P5 experience. So... is P5 experience important or not? Fans can't even make up their minds about what matters. If you are constantly making exceptions or shifting your narrative, maybe you don't actually have a valid point.
Very aggressive response considering the only 'claim' I made was that 'I would be surprised'...which I am.
Matt Campbell has done a good job so far, as has Dino Babers. Neither ISU or Syracuse are perennial top 25 teams though, nor are they coming off the 20+ year success run VT has. I'd expect we've got a bit loftier goals than ISU or Cuse when it comes to football and expectations of our coaching staff.
People talk about Mitchell and Nix, yes. I think they're on short leashes, and should be replaced. However, Lech could be upgraded, Wiggins could recruit better and he and Zohn likely aren't coaching in the right spots, Vice is somewhat of an anomaly at the moment, seems to recruit, but run blocking still looks soft. Clearly he shouldn't be replaced yet, but is a bit of a question mark. And Cornelsen I don't believe has proven he's capable of coaching at this level yet. His resume, ability to develop a QB, establishing an offensive identify and scheme..just don't seem to be there right now.
My narrative hasn't shifted once. I think we get blinded by Fuente and Bud, but we've got a coaching staff that isn't experienced at this level, and the product on the recruiting and roster mgmt side of things, as well as on Saturdays, shows that.
Which part of my response was aggressive? I said you shouldn't make claims without supporting information and then stated facts based on the criteria you put forth in your previous post (60% of the staff of any top 25 program working in their first P5 job).
I quickly found two examples which don't support your criteria and your response was to move the goal posts (neither ISU or Syracuse are perennial top 25 teams). You claim your narrative hasn't shifted but it takes minimal effort to find that it isn't consistent with the facts. You say recruiting and roster management is an issue because the coaching staff isn't experience at this level. Would you agree that recruiting and roster management is currently a significantly greater issue on the defensive side of the ball (CB and DL)? Because that actually further contradicts your claims regarding coaching experience since all four defensive coaches had prior P5 experience.
no idea why OOT5 heard aggression in your tone....
That wasn't meant as any type of shot at Shibest or Fuente, that was off the top of my head, and I didn't recall his full coaching history, so I did go back and update. However, that wasn't really meant to be the point at all. The 60% of the staff is more concerning to me than the remaining 40% (which includes JS). I think Shibest is one of our best assistants, and is one of the better recruiters of the guys new to the staff, which likely bolsters the point about needing more P5 experience across the board.
This should go Plaid
Vice was TE coach at Clemson.
He was not. He was a GA for one season at Clemson. Mac McWhorter was the TE coach while Vice was there.
This is from a Clemson media guide during the season he was there.
1997 Clemson Media Guide
According to his bio at every stop since he was TE coach from 96-98.
Back in the late 90's it probably wasn't common to have just a designated TE coach. He was more than likely a GA and was put in charge of the Tight Ends while working with the overall offensive line.
IMO the major differences between P5 and G5 are recruiting and PR. I find it hard to believe that there is much difference between P5 and G5 when it comes to running practices, calling plays, play design, etc.
Recruiting, PR, scouting, player development, roster management, S&C, everything is kicked up a few notches.
What does ''kicked up a few notches" mean? Higher risk if you fail? or do you think there's a different skillset?
I think both. Definitely more eyeballs on you, more money is involved, more outside pressures. Competition for players is more significant in the recruiting game. Players are bigger, faster, and stronger across the board, and coaching is better, which requires more scheming, more scouting. While skillsets may be similar, there is a lot more going on, which requires a larger, more focused staff, more attention to detail, what you handled in the past may need to be delegated to someone as technically capable.
If you were the CEO of a small or mid-sized company, then stepped into a CEO position of a Fortune 100 company, much of your knowledge and your skills would likely translate, but the enterprise runs completely differently.
Think of running a rec league youth team and then stepping into a role in high school. Sure your experience would come in handy to an extent, but it's going to be a whole different ball game.
Granted that's a drastic comparison but the general idea remains the same.
There are changes coming. I highly doubt any of us will be ready for them. /S
Edit: I have heard some really dumb rumors out there, and frankly this thread is much the same. Speculation is useless. Now, if there was a tweet out there, or a journalist put something out with sources, then that's more than speculation. I highly doubt any serious change with this staff.
very cryptic of you.....
This is a "Bud is retiring" type of comment if I've ever seen one
Has anyone heard anything definitive about why he was in the booth? I heard several theories (no #sauces) ranging from stomach issues requiring immediate access to the restroom all the way to serious heart issues. Who knows...
The first game that he was in the booth they mentioned on the broadcast that he had been sick all week. Then after spending the UVA game in the booth Bud said post game that he noticed some things that he would not have noticed had he been down on the field. Everyone can believe what they want I suppose.
Well, if being in the booth is what it takes for Bud to finally discover a way to stop a mobile QB, then maybe he should stay up there permanently.
Thanks. I tend to follow the wisdom of Occam's razor. Given that, and until presented with evidence to the contrary, I'm chosing to believe he was sick and then stayed because he felt that he had a better opportunity to coach up the young defense from upstairs.
When we first heard he was in the booth my wife were excited as we thought this was a sign of him adjusting his style, looking for a way to help his young defense, doing whatever he can to get the best results, etc. Then the announcers said he had a cold. Haha. But there he was in the booth again for UVA and seemingly it helped him calling the game. I'll be interested to see if he is in the booth again against Marshall.
Heart
Okay, this is news to me. The only reference to a rumor like this was from Mooks dad. I don't believe it.
"Well, I've been 'fraid of changin'
'Cause I've built my life around you
But time makes you bolder
Even children get older
And I'm gettin' older, too"
I don't think any changes will be made, to be completely honest. Not for at least another year.
Just my gut but I think we see one coach hired/fired and some change in responsibilities of the current staff.
Sooo....one coach let go, Cornelson to QB coach, and Kingsbury to OC, right?
that dreams dead. Kingsbury to USC.
As long as we do not go full blown UNC and fire Fuente and bring back Beamer, we're going to be okay. I think we see some shift in responsibilities, and maybe some salary adjustments (I think Cornelson gets his contract re-evaluated as he needs to have added pressure on him in Year 4).
If Fuente really wants to take control of the team then he would take over playcalling duties from Corny IMO. I don't think it happens but it would really show that he understands the sense of urgency.
That would require Fuente to essentially admit it is the end for Cornelsen, which I don't see happening. If Corn isn't calling the plays, and continuing to not recruit, it starts getting tough to justify his role and salary. If Cornelsen is eventually let go, that's going to come from pressure from Whit, not Futente making the change.
To me, having someone strictly recruit and coach qb's is important. I would be satisfied if we just took playcalling duties away from Corny and still let him work with Fu to coordinate the offensive gameplan. Just let Fu call the plays during the game.
Not really knowing what it's like on the sidelines, this seems exactly opposite to what I would want. The two should work together during the week to make sure Cornelson knows what Fuente wants. During the game, Fuente should be the head coach and Cornelson should call the plays.
This is likely happening now, and let's be honest- it's not working the way that we need it to work. If there are execution errors, that falls on the coaching staff making sure the guys are prepared to execute. Playcalling is a factor in that as well. Call plays that allow you to utilize the strengths on the field.
That is exactly what's happening now. I think most can agree that playcalling is an issue, so this would hopefully help with that.
But most people (and I mean 99.99999% (I went back and added 3 more 9's for accuracy's sake)) use play-calling as a blanket complaint when the offense doesn't work. While there have been calls I've certainly not liked, and there are probably issues that need to be addressed, the opinion of fans is less than useless, and knocking Fuente because he doesn't demote his OC at the first sign of struggle is unfounded.
Having been involved in coaching (albeit a a low level) for a number of years, game planning and calling plays are two very different arts. You cannot always game plan for the specific scenarios that play themselves out over the course of a game.
In essence, it really doesn't matter whether or not Fuente tells Cornelson "what he wants" if he simply isn't good at calling plays.
I have to interject this observation. Play calling seems to be better on the first few series (when Fuente has more influence). Most of our complaints have been late in the game (when the OC has the call). I just feel like our pre-game prep is good, but our in-game feel is lacking. Thoughts?
Yes
I absolutely agree with that. I just don't know if Cornelsen has proven he's capable to do either of those at this level yet.
My thoughts too.
I'd be interested to see French breakdown Willis' progression as aplayer from the ODU game through the Marshall game
As for coaching, he's yet to have a quarterback for more than a year, at worst you can give him a grade of incomplete. Any complaints against QB coaching when we've had a new QB every year is completely unfounded.
They can clearly recruit though as they've brought in a 4-star QB every year while also identifying transfers who are willing to play a backup role.
I don't think complaints about QB play or development are unfounded.
JJ, though limited this year, didn't really show anything in action this year to make you think he'd really progressed
Willis is a seasoned guy, knowledgeable of the position, yet hasn't really shown vast improvement over the year
HH has been in the program for multiple years now and the coaches don't trust him to throw a pass, and has been passed on the depth chart by a true freshman
QP is a complete unknown at this point
The staff recruited 3 of those 4 guys, and for the most part they've all got raw talent. We're finishing year 3 and QB is a crapshoot - the starter next year could literally be any of them..
If Cornelsen is a recruiter, he needs to pull in more than 1 guy a year. If he's a QB coaching specialist, we should be seeing some sort of rise in the level of play. If he's a scheme guy, we should hopefully see an offense a that runs a little more effectively than we've seen the last couple years. I don't think he's shown he's any of those.
QP hasn't passed Hooker....QP is 3rd string. And Hooker is still a red shirt freshman...take a deep breath
Curious, but what are you basing your comment about JJ on?
My impression has always been that Corn is running Fuente's offense the way Fuente wants it to be run. Is this not the case?
All the talk of moving on from Corny seems like we're asking Fuente to fire himself.
I'm just gonna say it, we all wanted Loeffler out at OC when he was here and look at him now.
What accounts for the difference in offensive production between Lefty's last season and Fuente's first season?
I was really just making a joke about Lefty somehow being a head coach now. But in all honesty, i'm more frustrated with the offense now than I was then. One year when Lefty was OC, Willie Byrn was the best receiver he had and then the next year Motley was our quarterback for half the season. I really just think it was a dark time for Tech offense in general. We have too many athletes to be so average right now.
I agree with your last sentence for sure. I really thought the offense would take a huge leap forward this year. Loosing JJ made a difference I'm sure. Hard to say how much though since a lot of people weren't sold on him to begin with. Now we hear all about how Willis makes the wrong reads.
If JJ made just a handful of correct reads each that could have extended drives, led to TD's rather than FG's or FG's rather than punts? I don't think it would have been enough to change our losses to wins given the defensive performance but it may have been enough that we're not talking about replacing staff on that side of the ball.
IMO JJ and RW are both stop gaps and JJ always got the nod for his game management. Fuente's offense is desgigned around athletes and moving people constantly, JJ looked like he was running in concrete and RW can be a loose cannon so something tells me if HH or QP can grasp the playbook fully the offense should be theirs for the taking.
HH has been passed over on the depth chart by JJ, RW, and AJ Bush before he transferred. I don't think HH is the answer. I have high hopes for QP though.
I had to read this like 10 times while freaking out, and was like 'OH... AJ BUSH TRANSFERRED... not HH...'
That's right. We have the Hooker but have lost the Bush.
I'm okay with that.
Neither do I, I think the athleticism is there I just don't know how well he's learning the playbook
I wouldn't say AJ Bush passed him over. Hooker was redshirting. Also, I just think QP has been playing because he offers something different than HH, a better running threat down the middle of the field. I think the coaches really want to implement the offense they had with Evans to open up the RB runs to the outside.
QP has been playing because he was promoted to #3 QB and was capable of running the wild turkey. Before Jackson got injured, Hooker was the #3 QB and was coming in to run the wild turkey here and there. Notice a trend?
#2 QB stays safe on the bench in case they is an injury to the #1 QB,
meanwhile #3 QB runs the run-heavy wild turkey plays.
He's a freshman. He very well may not work out, but writing him off this early into his career is foolish.
Jerod Evans.
I don't think he was THAT dynamic of a player that CJF is lost without him.
I do think it's strange that we had such obvious success with Evans making one read and running the football and since he left we've chosen to play the QB's on the roster who are not particularly good at running the football.
To put it in perspective Jerod had 846 rushing yards and 12 tutties in 2016 and Steven People has 682 yards and 5 tds so far. To be fair Jerod played 3 more games in 2016 than Peoples has so far this year. But still, that's primary ball carrier vs quarterback
Evans was a superior running threat. Way more elusive than Peoples. And he was effectively the "primary ball carrier" during that season I would say. I remember Fu saying many times that he wished Jerod didn't have to run the ball so much but that was what was working.
McMillian had a chunk of yards too but only about 140 touches so yea Jerod was the primary ball carrier. But Jerod was the reason our offense was successful
Well my question, is Vance Vice part of the reason for Corny & the offenses' incompetence??
Good question, since I noticed that 5th-year Sr. Chung collected two rookie-level penalties in last week's home game (false start plus one other). But OTOH, look at Darrisaw et al.
Not sure. They look better at times in pass protection, but I think our run game has gotten worse since Searles was let go.
But Searles was a big improvement over the previous two or three O-line coaches, right? We could step down from him and still be better off than we were.
To my untrained eye...yes
I think the caliber of talent on the OL has definitely increased and few would argue with that. We also have as big an OL as we've had in years. However, to me, they don't seem to play "nasty". They don't have that hit you in the mouth and make you pay mentality. It seems to be poor scheming but again I'm no expert.
Would love to see them get Kliff Kingsbury to replace Cornelsen, although I do not see it happening. Also would love to see them bring in Deangelo Hall to work with the secondary.
Kliff is going to get a dump truck load of cash and a gig near the coast (i.e USC) both of which we cannot provide
A lot of people say he's going to the NFL for a few years. It will be interesting to see what happens. I love coaching searches (when it's not my team searching).
I'm sure he would also consider more 'qualified' schools as well- which the "coastal" schools do seem to attract, given the dude is single...
Probably not. I said Corn had to be fired if they lost to LOLUVA, which did not happen.
So I got nothing now.
I really thing offensively, it wasn't as bad as it appeared. We had sooo many drops and bad execution to put all of the blame on play calling so I am fine with no changes there.
Defensively, we lost our 2 starting corners before the season and have been playing 18 year olds back there. Nix has been here for 6 months so you can only expect so much from that. Safety play has not been great but that could be tied to Nix being here for only months.
DL was decimated by injuries and attrition.
I say no changes happen and I don't think they need to happen this year.
This is kind of my thought process. It's really tough to determine how many of this season's failures can be attributed to things out of the coaches' control, and how many are due to poor development/deployment. You don't fire people just for the sake of change - you do it because you can upgrade. If we can't upgrade, then what's the point?
If you were to hand this team to Chris Peterson, who arguably gets the best offensive results out of the least amount of talent, would he be able to do any better?
Now, if you want to complain/hold the coaches for their roster management, I think that's a more interesting conversation.
No changes coming.
Watch for John Papuchis name to circulate once season is over ....
For what position ?
working with BFoster
This is intriguing. I see many possible scenarios here. This is certainly an interesting consideration.
former Nebraska DC under Pelini and UNC DC this year under Fedora.
graduated from VT.
Whit Babcock and Coach Fuente trust me with Leonard, Inc, so I'm going to reciprocate this go around.
I just hope that Fuente takes a more active role in coaching - he has been too much of a CEO type coach, letting the assistants deal with internal issues (Hilgart, Vice) rather than being a coach for the players. This, I believe, along with him not taking more personal blame publicly for our losses (blaming execution), is the reason why we've had attrition before the season is over. I don't believe losing players prior to season's end can be explained by playing time issues alone. This has been mentioned before in previous threads, but I'm hearing (sauces) lots of other players would leave the program if they could and Fuente really needs to win back his players again before next season. This year has been a shitshow for the program
Can the season be over yet?
Fuente actually puts the blame on himself and the coaching staff in every single post-game press conference...
And we are losing players before the end of the season because they want to enroll @ their future school for spring semester and need to make themselves available ASAP to improve their odds. Most of them are leaving because they had "the talk" with the coaches about their chances for PT in coming seasons. (Plantin is the exception to that rule because his PT future looked pretty good.)
and finally, no, the season won't be over until at least 3:30pm on Saturday, and hopefully not until sometime in late December after the Military Bowl or Music City Bowl
Plantin left because he wanted to play ahead of Smith this year.
But he was likely to play a lot next year. Hope someone like Culver is ready to go.
Not this year; Nix and/or Mitchell are just keeping the seat warm while Corey Fuller gets some coaching experience at CMU. We'll have a Fuller back in the fold in no time.
And yes, I know Corey was a WR. He's a Fuller, his abilities are unquestionable. He doesn't fly because he CHOOSES not to.
Why not Vince instead of Corey?? Also, how about Pierson Prioleau??
Because neither have any coaching experience?
PP is coaching (DC) at Radford High School (he's in his 6-7th year). Has a nasty D, playing in the state semifinals this weekend.
Didn't know about that, but that's not enough experience for him to be ready to coach P5 football.
Eddie Whitley is finishing his second year coaching DBs at Bridgewater College.
I think people really get caught up with this "not having coaching experience" thing. Dre Bly was just brought in to Mack Browns staff at UNC to coach DBs and has never coached before. If you dont think a player with NFL experience and a fairly good NFL career doesn't bring an advantage in recruiting - I would highly disagree. You have a NFL player in your living room as a 15-16-17 year old with aspirations to be in the NFL - instead of a football mind who just played college ball at some small school, I would say most of the kids would be enamored with the NFL guy. We, and coaches today, get too caught up in the X's and O's and try to reinvent the wheel, with kids today, you just have to wow them and gain their trust. An NFL guy, with NFL experience and connections can go a long way.
And in terms of us, theres no doubt in my mind that DHall could be a great coach with great recruiting success. It would be super easy to slot him in as DBs coach, considering he played for Bud and knows all the nuances of Buds D. If he wasnt going into a system he knew to start out his coaching career, I would agree with you that the lack of coaching experience is an issue, but this would be a home run for Tech and our recruiting and taking back the 757. I'd hire him in an instant and never look back.
If you were a 15 year old trying to make your college decision and want to make it to the next level who would have more influence on you
Deangelo Hall
or
Brian Mitchell/Tyrone Nix?
Its a no brainer
I happen to believe D Hall will be a good coach. My basis is that he essentially turned into a player coach in his later years with the skins. However, I don't think this is true with just any player with NFL experience. Also, hiring a coach that recruits great and coaches poorly would be as bad of a choice as a coach that coaches well and recruits poorly. There has to be a balance.
Someone told me yesterday Bridgewater was $51k/yr in-state!!!
1.) college costs are out of whack,
2.) find somewhere else, anywhere else, to spend your money.
But they give a ton of financial help to many applicant's to bring cost down to about public schpol tuition.
I know its not going to happen because the Athletic Department isn't made up of the people in here, but if we force Cornelson out because the offense sputtered with a backup QB who wasn't even on the team last year, we don't deserve to have a good football program anymore.
I think I mostly agree with this. But I would like to see Corny demoted to QB coach and maybe co-OC with Fuente taking more of a front seat there.
You don't demote an OC because the offense struggled with a backup QB who wasn't on the team last year behind center.
You keep bringing logic into this. We just want to blame one person for all of the offenses problems.
Do you demote a play-caller because you think he's bad at calling plays? I don't know nearly enough to question Cornelson's play calling, but your logic seems suspect.
Willis was on the team last year, so...
And I'm not suggesting that Cornelson can't be or isn't a good OC, I'm suggesting that we don't know yet.
For beginners, we are at the end of year three and we still don't have a QB on this team, who plays, that "fits the scheme". That is a coaching/recruiting/development issue.
To add, we know without question that Fuente can call a great game, its what got him where he is. We still don't know, three years in, if Cornelson can, at least consistently anyway. I think Fuente taking over those responsibilities isn't a stretch here.
Ryan Willis was on the team last year, he was sitting of because he had transferred. So it's not his first season with the coaches and playbook
He was scout team last year so more familiar with opposition playbooks execution.
I would love to add Scottie Montgomery to the staff. He was a decent OC at Duke, and he has great NC recruiting ties. Would be smart to add him on as a Co-OC IMO.
This seems curious to me with how awful he did at ECU and I believe he only had 2 seasons as an OC before that.
None