What are the chances it's all smoke?
Whit said he hasn't heard from Texas A&M, isn't this the same amount that was around Bud Foster being their next DC only for him to still be wake boarding on Claytor lake this summer?
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I'm sorry but we really dont need a 4th thread about this
That thread title tho....
I thought this thread was about the merits of marijuana laws.
... or some kind of wisecrack about Outlaw.
I think we need to weed out some of these Buzz threads...
The only smoke is the trail behind him as he rushes out of town...HE GONE!!!!
Just because we didn't need a fourth thread, doesn't mean downvotes are deserved. There is a chance he is right.
Wrong.
Literally the first rule in the Community Guidelines under Posting a New Forum Topic:
So you're saying I should delete/not post my:
"# Sauces Say: This might be Buzz's version of an elaborate April Fool's Joke" thread?
There is no chance he is right
Then why the fuck won't he just get on with it?
Because these things take a long time to finalize. It's more than just signing a piece of paper. Everyone was crying about him negotiating before the tournament was over, now everyone is crying about there being no announcement less than 72 hours after the final whistle.
Your inside sources have served well. I want you to be wrong or for negotiations, if they're still going on, to fall through. But, since you're convinced, let's move on. What are you hearing about who our new coach will be?
Even if negotiations fell through on A&M's side, Buzz's time at VT is done.
Meaning he'd leave regardless if A&M works out or not? Or does this response mean we have another coach in waiting ourselves, ready to step in once he's made the announcement?
Wow so you are saying at this point there is no option for him to stay at VT? I would love to hear more details on that. Sounds like what you are saying is the bridge with Whit has been burned at this point.
That's the same vibe I'm getting from LAH
Looks like we needed a fourth thread after all!
Ominous.
This would be a tough thing to reconcile, but might explain the recent rumors of Buzz's offer being in the $3.5 MM range. I would like to hear the explanation from both side if the TAMU deal fell through and VT decided to part ways with the most successful coach in a long while.
We definitely won't be the ones doing the parting with the buyout to fire Buzz being 8 figures if I recall.
What a weird situation that would be if Buzz just left with no destination.
The way I'm reading LAH's post doesn't give credence to this idea, just saying if something were to fall through (highly unlikely) there may be no road back to bburg. Not sure why that would be the case but it's extremely unlikely
Saying that there may be no read back to Blacksburg implies that Buzz has already resigned. Tech can not pay that buyout.
Tech does not pay a buyout if Buzz resigns, only if he is terminated.
I know. That's why I said Tech will not be the party doing the parting.
My bad. I took "can not" as incapable financially vs. not obligated.
This makes a lot more sense now that I am able read the difference between Parting and Partying.
I need another drink.
I don't think there is a lot of "may be" here:
Yeah, there is no road back from that.
Given what we would owe Buzz if we fired him, to me it sounds like LAH is saying that Buzz has informed Whit that he won't be returning next year, regardless if things are finalized with aTm. If that were the case though, I would think we'd have heard something from VT
What a blunder it would be on Buzz's part if he told Whit he was leaving then got jilted by A&M for Beard because some donors with more money than sense got choosy.
Or maybe Buzz's negotiations with A&M are just taking an extra couple of days. This whole episode is really interesting.
This is just speculation and theory on my part but I wonder if this has happened:
Whit got wind that Buzz and A&M had mutually agreed for him to come on board and this had been a done deal for perhaps several months...maybe going back to last year. All along this was true (verbal commitment) but nothing was signed in writing or formally agreed to. Once Whit figures all of the above out and comes to conclusion that Buzz aint coming back he pulls any offers (for pay increase) and makes it known VT isn't bidding for him anymore. Whit does this to plant the seed in A&M's mind that they don't have to throw out an insane amount of money anymore to get him....Whit justifies this because Buzz made the decision so far back (which, if true, isn't exactly a great look for Buzz to do so.)
This would all make sense, if true and play into the A&M throwing lower numbers than expected at Buzz. This would also coincide with what the rest of the predominant rumors have been.
I love Buzz and Whit both and hope we can keep him. It is an interesting saga.
What's his #2 option? VT isn't just cutting him loose if there's no team hiring him away. There's a $16 million buy-out in the way of that path.
Didn't say cutting him loose. Just not bidding any higher than his current deal. Again, all just speculation.
Well, I was responding to LAH who said "Buzz's time at VT is done" meaning even if he's not hired by A&M, he's leaving VT.
So my question is which other schools would he be in the mix to hire him, because it would seem highly unlikely that Buzz just outright quits (loses millions he could earn from VT, has to pay his own buy-out) or that VT would fire him (would owe him $16 million).
Zero percent chance he's fired or quits.
I'm guessing the contract negotiations with A&M are dragging out, or there's other big names in on him that we're not aware of.
Either way, he's gone.
It's going to hurt when we see the headline but it'll hurt more if we delude ourselves into thinking that there's a chance he returns. Every single insider has said so on all of the boards.
We have to move on.
I think you're reading too much into it. These are very unlikely scenarios. He will be an Aggie.
Name doesn't check out.
Sorry bout that....one day I will learn how to follow a thread on here.
Hell, I'm just sorry I asked. And I didn't get an answer.
Edit: It just came to me. LA was really saying that not only was Buzz gone, but we've basically already hired our new coach. Right? But of course, LA can't say who that is without getting in Dutch with the powers that are holding that close to the vest, so LA proceeds to dance around the issue, but leaving a small clue for conjecturers like me. Right?
LAHokie, thanks for clearing the air on this so we (as fans) can move forward.
Although this sounds ominous, I am going to take the high road on the relationship.
Whit: You coming back?
Buzz: Nope.
Whit: You sure, because if so I need to lock up Gregg Marshall.
Buzz: I am sure.
Whit: OK, best to you and your family. Thanks.
Buzz: It has been a pleasure.
Whit: Gregg, ready to come back to SWVA?
Gregg: Oh hell yea! It is my dream job!
Because he's probably negotiating and A&M might be intrigued by who else is available
Dammit, Ty!
Happy to see this thread survived infancy. Maybe we can just transition to this as part 3 of the Buzz saga.
Every hour this goes on is more painful but also more optimistic.
Too many individual posts to respond to so I'll just post a new comment. As I've said before, I don't really have direct basketball connect, but my friends in the football program talk to their counterparts in the basketball program. From what I understand, Whit has been privy to Buzz leaving now for a long time. He's spent the last year simultaneously preparing a counteroffer to A&M while also putting his list of replacements together and putting out feelers. While the A&M deal isn't 100% done (more like 99.9%), Whit has decided that moving on at this point is the best thing for VT rather than trying to hang on to what little chance we have of Buzz staying. I was heard that as of yesterday it was basically down to Wojchiechowski and Cronin.
Thanks for the info but I hope the real short list isn't this.
Same.
However, I do think some people (not directing this at you), have gotten a little caught up in the hype of this year's NCAAT run + the job Buzz has done + Whit snagging him in the first place.
I was talking about the opening on Twitter with a friend and some guy said we should go after Scott Drew, Dana Altman, Mike White, or Steve Prohm. IMO there's just no way in hell Whit swings those types of hires without the stars aligning like they did with Buzz.
Not really sure what you guys were expecting. We just made our first sweet 16 ever. Marquette was a top 10 team this year until their best player broke down with injuries. Cronin has been the tournament something like 8 years in a row. We have things to sell but we're not a destination program. Either of them would be very good hires considering our stature and history.
I've been trying to make this point for a couple of days now. (And we had been to the elite eight once before. I know, I know, it was before it was a field of 64, but we still made it there.)
Both of those hires would be great for us.
Eh, I guess I meant I hope the list is different for other reasons than that I'm thinking they're underwhelming. I don't want Mick the Dick because, well, because he's a dick. I don't want the only other name to be Wojciechowski because I don't think he'll come here. But I'd be thrilled if he did.
Not sure what this means but I chuckled...
Not sure what this means but I chuckled.
I would much rather have Wojo than Cronin even if that earns the life long hatred of Marquette fans.
Now you know how Texas A&M fans feel, I guess.
They need a coach, and ours is available within their terms.
I completely understand this point and in my mind I know it's true, but Cronin just feels like a younger, thinner Seth Greenberg and Woj feels like we'd be renting him until K retires at Duke. Admittedly I think I'm just depressed about Buzz leaving and I won't be happy with anyone.
So he's not even going to counter A&M? I guess I don't know everything going on inside but to me that seems crazy...Buzz is the best coach out of all the options I've heard if there is a chance you can get him to stay why not try?
Edit: I'm not doubting your intel. I'm questioning Whit's reasoning for this. I'm assuming he has a good reason because I have no reason to doubt Whit but still hard to wrap my head around not making a counter offer...
It sounds like there's just no shot of Buzz coming back.
"preparing a counteroffer to A&M"
Gotcha I think I initially read that wrong. Sounds like he already countered and won't waste his time making another. Makes sense.
I'm sure Whit did counter, but he knows when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em. I think Buzz took the VT job knowing he would only be here a set amount of time, and that time is now up. Whit probably knows that now too and is focusing on the replacement since Buzz has no interest in staying regardless.
Right. It's tough to make a huge counter offer to a guy that had yet to win a tournament game. If he wants to make a huge ask like that, sometimes you have to get a better value in the door.
Rumors were we did make and offer or were about to but wasn't going to change Buzz's mind. Whit's smart enough to try and keep a good thing, but also smart enough to know when those efforts would be wasted.
If that's the list, give me Wojo and I would be completely fine. I want no part of Cronin at this point.
I'm with you, I don't want Cronin.
Sounds like Whit prepared a last shot final offer at some point which Buzz declined. I can see being ready to move on from Buzz based purely on the fact that it seems like every year for the past 3 or so there has been speculation of Buzz leaving. In a sport where recruits are comitting to the coach as much or more so than the school it was simply not sustainable. The speculation of Buzz leaving for the past few years at this point has undoubtedly hurt our recruiting and will likely leave the cupboard bare when he leaves and the recruits/transfers follow. Hopefully the new coach can bring some talent (either transfers or recruits) of his own with him and restock, but also show some commitment which will stabilize the program for some time.
Knowing what I know about contract negotiation, typical deals of this magnitude are about 95% done at initial write up and after one two rounds of edits, it's finalized. When deals stall, it's due to one or two issues that the parties cannot agree on, especially when those issues are possible in another contract. So, VT (or some other University) may be offering Buzz something that is important to him, but A&M doesn't want to relinquish.
So in other words, anytime there is a stall and even if it's just "0.1%," it's obviously an important issue and may be the straw that break's the camel's back.
You gotta let it go
let it go.
Bismillah, we will not let it go,
let it go
Bismillah, we will not let it go,
let it go
(Will not let it go) let it go (never, never let it go) let it go (never let it go)
Oh oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no
[OK, I know we all think this song is overrated, but it's SOOOOOO perfect for this situation]
Sorry, my little brother posted this.
Ah yes, HokiePebble
I'm not holding onto anything. Stalls implicate something is not being seen eye-to-eye and that's all I'm saying. One party is holding out and holding out for a reason.
If A&M really wants Buzz and Buzz wants A&M, they'll get over the stalls. But, imo, it's weird to stall this long.
Not sure not getting a multi-million dollar agreement signed within 72 hours is stalling.
These deals are becoming more expensive, more complex and it's Buzz and his analytical mindset (think how about the details of a contract and every component combined with his personality). This is simply the process that happens in any business negotiation of any stature and everyone's personality influences the process as well.
Once, both parties sign there is no turning back. A couple of days to work out the details isn't mind-boggling. Your interpretation of stalling is what I would call wishful thinking.
I'm decently versed in contract law and negotiation. Employment contracts are actually pretty simple in comparison to say a corporate merger.
I'm now thinking the stalling is just Buzz being Buzz. He holds all the cards in the deck. He can stall it out as long as he wants.
It's A&M giving Buzz a slower play than normal looking for a meeting with Beard at least, if you ask me, now if they win their next game that's all out the window in my opinion
hmm... that's a wrench, if true
what ever happened to them having eyes for Buzz and no one else?
The coach of a different in state school who graduated from their arch rival made the Final Four. That's literally it.
The pettiness of Texas university rivalries will get after ya.
For the record I haven't seen much more about this than a tweet or two that went out yesterday.
Nothing confirmed on this individually on my end, just my thoughts on the matter
Maybe now he's their
first, second, and third choice. /sI don't think for a minute there is anything to that, but it does appear that we've moved on.
Even just looking at him is a little leverage over Buzz
I agree with this.
If both sides want to make a deal, a deal is made pretty quickly. There are even times a "deal in principle" or something to that effect is announced because both parties see a benefit in going public. Stalling at this stage does not benefit A&M or Buzz if this is a "done deal'". The reason is that VT goes on with its negotiations with other coaches whose contracts are contingent on Buzz's departure (any potential coach would be well aware of this).
Buzz does not seem like the kind of guy to be taken lightly or to be taken advantage of. A&M can throw STUPID money at any coach they want. Instead, according to rumors, they're just simply throwing stupid money. That is telling Buzz that he's the guy as long as he's cheap. How many of you would want to be the "the person" as long as you're cheap? They're basically trying to use their brand and location to suggest that Buzz wants the job more than they need him as a coach. This is the same school that made Jimbo Fisher the 4th highest paid coach in college football. That is incongruous.
WRT Buzz is gone no matter what, I wouldn't move so fast. We're not paying a buyout of that magnitude. He's not paying a buyout. So if Buzz is gone no matter what you have to answer the following question, "Who's paying the buyout?" To answer that you have to ask which schools out there can afford to pay the buyout and pay him.
Having said all that I think there could be two points of contention:
The first, even though Chazz has pointed out this type of language is typical, which still does not stop lawyers from arguing, is what I perceive as ambiguity in Buzz's buyout clauses. Chazz (probably rightly so) points out the lines are cumulative. I could see someone challenging that point, like an A&M lawyer for example, and saying that the lines are mutually exclusive and not cumulative.
The other point of contention could be that A&M is trying to push Buzz's pay down because they had to buy him out and he may not like that idea.
Regardless, something isn't adding up.
So, I'm saying: He Home.
I know I saw some posts on it but his buyout isn't cumulative, I highly doubt that's the hold up. There's a reason every article about his contract didn't add up the buyouts.
His buyout is cumulative.
You can disagree but let's not spread the idea of a cumulative buyout as a verified fact.
There isn't much interpretation, tbh. The facts are in the contract language. It's rather simple (although not intuitive if not used to contract language).
I agree the buyout is not the hold up. But I think you would be hard pressed to find a lawyer that would read that contract differently. It's in plain (legalese) language.
You're wrong on that. That much I can guarantee.
based upon?
Because I'm a lawyer and I disagree with you. I ran it by another lawyer who does exclusively L&E and that lawyer disagrees with you. So that's two lawyers right there.
I guess sometimes, they ARE worth their money.
Contract-writing day is one of those times.
hmm..., interesting. I don't see how it can be read another way, but I'll defer.
It seems to say the following:
The contract has the following stipulations:
3. If Buzz leaves before Mar. 23 2019, he must pay $750K
4. If Buzz leaves before Mar. 23 2020, he must pay $500K
5. If Buzz leaves before Mar. 23 2021, he must pay $500K
6. If Buzz leaves before Mar. 23 2022, he must pay $250K
There is an "or" in between lines 5 and 6, but i don't think that would prevent reading it cumulatively. He definitely violates all of them though, so in my opinion (which should not be construed as legal advice), it should be cumulative . If it's not cumulative, that's really bad contract writing.
In the IP world, we often have this kinda of language and it reads cumulatively. Very common in milestone type language.
Link to language again.
Except Paragraph 7 says:
"If Williams terminates prior to March 23, 2023, Williams will not owe the University any stipulated damages."
By the cumulative logic, this would mean he pays nothing. They're not meant to be read cumulatively.
Second edit - I'll eat crow in the sense that I originally looked at the original contract - which was better written and clearer. This isn't great work but I still wouldn't read it cumulatively.
Edit - not legal advice either and if litigated a judge would decide it anyway.
Maybe Buzz shouldn't have written his own contract, after all. /s
I have no idea how to read that, but I'm certainly learning something here. Not that I expect to ever to have a cool contract that has major league damage clauses.
My only legal advice to you would be, if you can't understand it, it's probably not a good contract.
That is true understatement and 100% true.
interesting. I definitely agree it's not the best contract writing I've seen, lol. And you're right, a judge or an arbitrator would decide.
idk, I can't read it as noncumulative. if that's supposed to be noncumulative, Buzz better find a better lawyer.
Edit: Just read the original contract. It reads "if Williams terminates in this year, he owes $X" which is definitely non-cumulative. The amendment reads "if Williams terminates before this date, he owes $X" which I read as cumulative, but based on the first contract I now think that it was a mistake in drafting. Everything is the same except the "in this year" and "before this date."
Lesson learned: get a good contract drafter, lol.
Yeah, the original contract is much clearer. Someone dropped the ball here.
Y'all, I didn't come here to relive my 1L contracts course. I came here for rampant speculation about whether Buzz is leaving and if we're replacing him with John Wooden or Dean Smith.
It depends on the buyout... which depends on 1L contract basics!
/sssssssss
FWIW not a lawyer, but have a law degree and have done my fair share of contracts stuff (mostly assurance for companies with commercial contracts). I'd say it's kinda ambiguous, but seems non-cumulative to me, just at first read, without reading the whole contract. Just my 2 cents.
I would say a judge would rule it is non cumulative and if ruling on the nitpicky lack of the "or" between 4 and 5, the most it could be stretched is from 500k to 1M but couldn't tack on the remaining or statements.
The time will come where one door will be closed and a new opened. What I gather from your insight, VT & Whit have decided the New door. Trust In Whit on what is best for VT..
April 1st post?
I think we may be pleasantly surprised with the replacement. Let's give it a few more days then we should know something, fingers crossed guys, I've been hearing good news so far
Ooh c'mon.
You gotta give us more than that!
#Sauces? Or just hypothetical/behind paywalls?
He doesn't have direct ties to the school but he's pretty good friends with some of our boosters, he's usually right about 9/10, but he did say nothing was 100% yet just hearing good things from potential candidates, I.e. one bigger name one we've been linked too
Does his name rhyme with...
Peg Partial?
im thinking more like rhymes with Grieve mojo labowski
via GIPHY
Well, we've been publicly linked to 'mojo' so that can't be who he's talking about.
Yeah I'm not sure if there's a missing word or punctuation here.
or
Sorry, it's someone that we have been linked to already that I've been hearing
Hey, I've seen us linked to Jay Wright...on this site...in the context of "that's not realistic"....must be Jay Wright
Now that would be beyond a pleasant surprise , also I don't know if VT is willing to open the checkbooks for basketball quite that much this early, in order to even get his attention I'm sure it would take in the 6+ million a year range which is way higher than most would expect us to spend on a coach, and furthermore to the point of Jay from what I've heard we made the call and he said no thanks without even listening to the offer
Bigger name, huh?
Great scott here we have an optimistic hokie fan I've been told theyre very rare
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With sauces.
The Marshall Plan (TM)
Not sure if this has been asked, but what would the community think if Buzz left VT and did NOT take another coaching gig? That's always been a possibility, but would people feel differently? Would you still feel betrayed if he just focused on his non-profit's/did some motivational speaking gigs/did some commentary in March?
I think I would feel better, but still would be bummed. I wouldn't feel quite as betrayed as I do now, though.
VT athletics is non-profit, so he could just say here.
Way less salty
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