I didn't know if anybody had realized this was coming down the pike but VDOT will be putting in a new interchange at Southgate and 460. They are essentially moving the intersection east a quarter mile. This will also allow for the airport runway to be extended. This is all supposed to start in March 2015. I imagine game day traffic during construction will be hell.
Forums:
DISCLAIMER: Forum topics may not have been written or edited by The Key Play staff.
Comments
This has been in discussion for two or three years.
For more detailed info, I recommend going to VDOT's site. A friend of mine who is a traffic engineer (not for VDOT) confirmed to me about this project.
http://www.virginiadot.org/projects/salem/southgate_connector_-_blacksbu...
Phenomenal Rendering and Video.
First time I have ever seen something graphically clear and logical produced by a team of Civil Engineers! (Warning! Sarcasm Font!)
8:00 is not peak morning time. 7:57 AM is peak morning time when everyone who overslept is rushing to campus. By 8:00 AM, everyone has said "*#@%@ it, I'll go in for my 10:00 AM." Each of the simulated times seem to be a few hundred vehicles short, IMO.
It's more like...
Shouldn't effect traffic during game days at all since it's being built offline of existing roads. This project is also why the farm relocated/is relocating.
I do heavy civil construction for a living, trying to convince my company to bid on this job. Spending a year in Blacksburg for work would be the tits.
I'm actually managing the dairy relocation project. That's why I know about that March 2015 start date. We have to have the dairy moved by then.
If you phrase it like that, I don't see how your company could say no. You have to actually say, "would be the tits" for this to work though. Very important phrasing.
Gotta say it like this:
It's the synergistic inclusion of VT, football, dairy and tits that will ensure the continued expansion of company profits and employee morale. Guaranteed maximization of shareholder value from now until September 2015 with minimal cost and enhancing skilled employee retention and good exposure of the company to enhanced public projects projecting into future gains of contracts.
Win win
the aspiring traffic engineer in me is really excited about this
whats with the traffic circles popping up in blacksburg? those things are fender benders waiting to happen. its like i died and woke up in new england.
Traffic circles are brilliant if they're correctly designed and properly utilized. The traffic circle on main street near Wendy's couldn't possibly have been designed worse. I hate that damn circle with every ounce of hatred I have. I think that particular traffic circle, by itself, gives traffic circles in general a bad reputation. I don't have a lot of confidence in the ability of us, as Americans, to design functional traffic circles and then teach drivers how to use them. They do okay in large cities (I've driven on a couple in DC that work well) but they don't belong in small town USA. We just can't handle them.
edit:
side note; I grew up in Charlottesville (yeah, I know) and they recently (and by recently I mean in the past 8 years) built several traffic circles. People there just DON'T know how to use them. There is one by the air port that used to be a T junction. It's flat and you can see pretty clearly in every direction from a long way off. I was driving out towards Earlysville for work one morning (I worked construction in the summers and winters for a couple years) and I was behind a guy in some work truck (not my company) and there was NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE on the road besides the two of us. We're approaching the traffic circle and slowing down (which makes perfect sense) but the guy in front of me STOPPED!!!!... I was in a big F-350 (which belonged to my boss) and I was NOT expecting him to stop because there were no cars on the circle or coming from either of the other two directions. I came so close to rear ending him it almost scared the shi* out of me. That may be one of the angriest moments I've ever had.
yeah i know the one near the cville airport, its bullshit too haha.
at least the design of that one isn't bad...people just don't know how to use it
oh your absolutely right. small town folk arent taught how to use them, and generally dont have a ton of experience with them.
they stress me out man. every time i approach one and its busy i'm all
and then when i get out of it
you grew up in charlotesville, what high school did you got to?
Albemarle HS
i went to stuarts draft. i remember playing western albemarle in different sports but not so much albemarle hs. i've learned from this thread to quit hating on traffic circles and just be more awesome at driving.
hahaha...yeah no joke!! Western Albemarle was our "local rival" but they're AA along with Monticello and Charlottesville High so I'm sure you played them. We were AAA so we basically only played Western and a bunch of schools up in NOVA. We were the smallest school in our division at around 1800 I think (when I went through..I think they're larger now) so we usually struggled with sports. We had a state championship caliber LAX team and our soccer and tennis teams were both really really good. Football and basketball were not our strong suits. My freshman year we had a "star" QB in R.J. Archer. That name might sound familiar because he was the QB for William and Mary when we played them a few years ago. That was the best season our football team had in the time that I was there (I don't remember their record but it wasn't spectacular..probably in the .500-.700 range)
Remember, it's
not
Shouldn't that be a French flag??
They do love their traffic circles.
Paris streets are the worst of anything I have ever seen.
time to drop some civil knowledge (See mom i am learning something in college :)
all the ones in blacksburg are technically roundabouts, not traffic circles. roundabouts are much smaller than traffic circles and give right of way to traffic inside. below is a nice chart explaining differences. traffic circles stopped being built in the 60s cause they ARE dangerous (think Dupont Circle in DC and Columbus Circle in NYC). studies have shown that roundabouts in their modern form (of which the design at prices fork and north main is one) are much much safer than signalized intersections in terms of number of and severity of accidents and drastically increase traffic flow/efficiency. basically the number of conflict points is dropped from 32 to 8 (and all T-bone potentials are eliminated). of course this is an ideal situation and people just dont know how to use them. in a roundabout YOURE NOT SUPPOSED TO CHANGE LANES INSIDE IT. you get in appropriate lane upon approach
because of all this, VDOT has actually taken the following position:
VDOT recognizes that Roundabouts are frequently able to address the above
safety and operational objectives better than other types of intersections in both
urban and rural environments and on high-speed and low-speed highways.
Therefore, it is VDOT policy that Roundabouts be considered when a project
includes reconstructing or constructing new intersection(s), signalized or
unsignalized. The Engineer shall provide an analysis of each intersection to
determine if a Roundabout is a feasible alternative based on site constraints,
including right of way, environmental factors and other design constraints. The
advantages and disadvantages of constructing a Roundabout shall be documented
for each intersection. When the analysis shows that a Roundabout is a feasible
alternative, it should be considered the Departments preferred alternative
due to the proven substantial safety and operational benefits
I would be interested to see those studies...I would argue that a lack of understanding is more dangerous than the physical layout of the circle itself. That being said...
I think the modern design over complicates the concept which leads to people misunderstanding how to properly use them...Maybe I'm just an old fashioned dummy but I don't like how part of the 'round about' at north main is one lane and part of it is 2 lanes. The squiggly arrows aren't helpful to me either. You're throwing too much information at a driver in a situation where there isn't enough time to digest said info and navigate the circle properly. If you're driving from out-of-town and it's the first time you've ever seen the circle you can end up going the wrong way off of it.
In the olden days if you're lost you can just keep going around the circle all day until you know where you need to go and then you can exit. Let's say you need to go towards prices fork and you're in the right lane as you get to the circle from main (heading north)...well now you're stuck going further north on main street before you knew what happened.
heres some. theres a good amount out there. i just pulled these off of google
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/safety/roundabouts/benefits.htm
http://www.tjpdc.org/pdf/29H250/report/29H250_roundabouts.pdf
I won't argue that the physical design of roundabouts isn't superior to standard intersections. Clearly there are less 'conflict points' and that makes sense. But at an intersection with traffic lights, inattentive drivers who don't obey lights are the exact same risk as inattentive drivers who don't know/observe the rules of a roundabout. Traffic lights are pretty well known and understood by all drivers across the country. We're taught how to navigate intersections with traffic lights in driver courses before receiving our licenses. I never learned much about roundabouts in my course. There is much less emphasis on it. I haven't been on the roundabout we're discussing in blacksburg in quite a long time but IIRC there aren't very clear signs indicating which lane you need to be in if you know which road you want to be on as you're approaching the circle. The circle works great for people who are familiar with it (locals) but it's useless to anybody who is driving on it for the first time ever. That is poor design in my mind.
I think that particular one is more dangerous, not because of it's design, but because while it's safe to assume all drivers understand traffic lights, not all drivers understand that roundabout. Uneducated drivers (like myself apparently) are more of a risk.
I also think that the circles are much safer in theory, but in practice they're flawed. No matter how much designing you do you just can't count on all drivers to understand them and use them correctly. Traffic lights are pretty clear cut and the few rules they have are pretty well enforced. I don't know if you can be pulled over for changing lanes in a roundabout(?) Drivers are more hazardous to other drivers if they don't understand where they should be or where they need to go.
I suppose eventually, if roundabouts are covered as extensively as traffic lights are in driver education courses, we'll get to a point where a majority of drivers understand them and use them correctly. I just think the 'modern' design over complicates the concept. They might have less conflict points but they require a lot more knowledge going into them, and if you don't have the information you need you become a risk to other drivers.
Really?! An inattentive driver running a red light could either t-bone someone in the cross traffic, or (worse) hit someone head-on who's got the left arrow across from the red-light-runner. Both of those types of collisions are nearly impossible at a roundabout.
I think roundabouts feel less efficient because you actually have to slow down and think about what the other drivers are doing, but they actually keep traffic moving.
Personally, I like roundabouts a lot. If there's another car in it, you yield, then get in. If you didn't get in the right lane, it's pretty darn easy to turn around and try again.
I think the real problem is most people are just ignorant of what's going on around them, and refuse to accept a 2 minute delay to turn around and come back, so they do unsafe and illegal actions to try and make up for them not focusing on driving.
A lot of times it's not someone not focusing, it's the relative uniqueness of these traffic devices.
Different localities use them differently and the optimum traffic flow is not often obvious to the new user.
Ever go into a shopping center and find people stopping where they don't need to because they expect a stop sign or drive through a stop sign because they don't see it painted on the road?
Ever walk up to a really nice door at a large building like a bank or museum and press on the wrong side of the door or pull instead of push to pass through?
These are problems of things being not intuitively designed or poorly designed.
Ever try to follow highway signs in Portland, Oregon? You couldn't do that due to idiocy and poor design.
People who don't know how to use them will cause problems. I think they need to be made as simple as possible until drivers are properly educated about them. Until I started reading and commenting on this thread I never knew that you weren't supposed to change lanes in a roundabout. I'm only 25 years old, and if I didn't learn that in my driver education course there are MILLIONS of Americans who never learned that either. How are they supposed to know that rule? Everyone knows the rules to traffic lights.
I've said all along that I think traffic circles and roundabouts are more efficient and generally better than 'traditional' intersections, but I think because people (myself included) don't know how to properly use them they can be dangerous. I'm not arguing that roundabouts are bad. I'm arguing that the education required for drivers to understand and properly utilize roundabouts to maximize efficiency is lacking severely. I think eventually, if roundabouts are covered in driver education classes, in a generation or two when a majority of drivers understand roundabouts there won't be any issue. But as of right now, they're poorly executed. The overall design of them isn't bad, but the rules that govern their efficiency aren't well known and that's a problem.
Darn fat finger down vote. It's so close to reply on my phone. Can someone pick me up?
And I completely agree with you on the education of drivers in the US. It's completely on yourself to learn how to drive, because the process of getting a license won't teach you squat. For example in Maryland you never actually have to get on the road to pass the drivers test. They essentially assume if you can drive in a parking lot by yourself, you can drive just fine when you get on a road with other people.
Gotcha covered.
I got you.
Totally agree with you about driver education. That said, even with uneducated drivers, I think roundabouts are safer (from the perspective of property damage and personal injuries) than intersections regulated by traffic lights.
My problem with roundabouts is the amount of space it takes. This graphic is a perfect example. From a real estate perspective, I hate these damn things and forbid any stupid planners to use them on anything I work in. They also create vehicular predominant landscapes, which negate real estate value further. They work fine on Southgate, but should not be anywhere near "people." It's a suburban solution, never should be an urban solution (because even urban roundabouts require the drag zone for the 18-wheelers that makes the radius huge by VDOT standards)
Yep the biggest downside from my perspective is how unfriendly they are to pedestrians. Traffic never stops moving so there's no time for people to cross the street. And stoplights and crosswalks eliminates the primary advantage of a roundabout over a regular intersection.
No way. A sideswipe to 2 old cars is a fatal accident when a car or truck and a motorcycle is concerned.
T bikers, a roundabout or traffic circle just an excercise in how to avoid an erratic merging vehicle.
Getting to actually apply Dr. Katz's Transportation Engineering class finally. But I'm squinting like Jameis Winston at that graphic though.
anybody else notice that there were a TON of tractor-trailers going to-and-fro...I think I only saw like 1 bus.
That looks way more complicated than necessary.
Why not just build a regular trumpet interchange and eliminate the lights altogether?
This design avoids the shared acceleration/deceleration lane on the eastbound side of 460 that would be apart of the partial clover-leaf, which I imagine would be less safe.
This is 2013! Where are the freaking flying cars?! At least some are trying to alleviate our congested roads:
As a motorcycle enthusiast, I hate them because the normally idiotic car drivers are even more unpredictable on traffic circles.
I avoid them if at all possible. I will take a longer route to avoid them.
I didn't say it explicitly in my posts above, but you make a great point about how you can't predict the actions of other drivers on a roundabout. It takes away the efficiency when you can't anticipate what other drivers are going to do. That causes hesitation and as my dad always said "He who hesitates, loses"
Not when the risk is all borne by 1 party to the accident.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO. The rendering is right over top of our back way in to our tailgating lot!!!
Edit: Nope, I lied. I took the time to watch the whole video. It's not going to take out our secret way in. Thank goodness.
As some people have mentioned, roundabouts are the future. They're new, and the more that they're introduced, the better they will be. I've seen people flip out when VDOT mentions a roundabout just because no one knows now to use them. My boss loves them, and I've grown to appreciate them. There's nothing worse than it being late at night and you get hung up at a red light with no one else around, that's why I like them. But yeah, if you read the facts, you'll see why VDOT is all about roundabouts. The two big ones are safety, and money. They save TONS of money.
too bad it's not a traffic circle.. you could catch a lot of idiots that just get stuck going round and round and round...
In the town where I grew up, they put in a traffic circle just o the other side of the crest of a very small hill. The circle is not lighted and has short curbs.
It was placed in an area where for years there was just a straight road with a basis low traffic intersection. 2-way stop.
At night, if you do not know to look for it, it is very easy to drive over the very small curb and median, not knowing the traffic circle was there. Tow drivers and tire companies love this circle.
They added some of those yellow signs with arrows which, if you are a long time resident, can be really confusing right here. you can see the road beyond the signs, it looks like it travels straight but, the signs tell you it is a sharp curve. The first time I saw this it confused the heck out of me and I traveled the circle a few times before that.
I see people stop there trying to figure out what is going on. It causes rear end accidents because people new coming across this needs to process it and despite it being open ground, you cannot see the roadway approaching this so, there is no time to preprocess what you need to do to be effective.
Driving to it, you see your road appearing to go straight for another half mile except, there's these signs that appear to be in the middle of the road, once you get right up on it, you see it is a very small traffic circle.
It might have been the first traffic circle in the whole county.
I can't believe that I just watched 6 minutes of fake cars driving on a non-existent road and found it to be fascinating. I need to get out more.
If that is the plan, I am not a fan. Two traffic circles/ roundabouts on the way to a football game?
I read the VDOT report that recommended against the installation of the roundabout on Prices Fork/North Main. Based on the traffic volume at that intersection, the installed roundabout should have been roughly three times the size of what was installed. It was installed that way at the Town's bequest to deliberately make traffic worse in town. They wanted more of a speed limiter than traffic facilitator.
Any chance this leads to that mythical commercial airport in Blacksburg? I'm thinking something similar to Roanoke's. That would make coming back east for games SO MUCH better.
I don't know about commercial, but part of this is being driven by the plans to extend the runway. That's why research center drive is being relocated.
Circles work if they can handle the volume. NJ got rid of circles (mostly) because
they become pointless when traffic lights have to be added due to volume.
I am curious what they will erect inside the circles. My vote: a 50 foot tall HOKIEBIRD!
Circles in NJ during rush hour is one thing i am afraid of
new jersey: the land of no left turns.
some intersections are something to behold!