http://deadspin.com/jameis-winston-isnt-the-only-problem-here-an-fsu-tea...
This story, written by a grad student at FSU who has tutored some of its football stars and does some writing for Gawker media, is a must read (in my opinion) for any college football fan. In light of the continuing investigation around Famous Jameis, it's important to remember just how willing academic departments are to protect their players. It's sad and dishonest and probably exists around every football program. I, and I'm sure most of you, knew there was a lot of funny business keeping our favorite players eligible. I just didn't realize how blatant it was, and how much it was abused by some players.
If you think this FSU piece is actually "about" FSU, you're reading it wrong. http://t.co/es1RpYCGk0— Barry Petchesky (@barryap1) November 21, 2013
Comments
As an athletics tutor, I can't say that I've experienced anything this extreme (as far as academics go) since they hired me, but then again, I'm a geology tutor. I'm sure that there's more than meets the eye for some of the more core subjects.
College football is only pretty on the field anymore, it seems.
Good to hear. I'm still waiting on Dave's response to see if athletics will work on my teachers too
Watch out or he'll take away your scholarship...
I had to stop reading it half way through. It was so sickening. Discussed this with a fellow Hokie fan and he said, "You know if this happens at Florida State, it has to happen at places like Alabama and LSU..."
I just hope Frank keeps us on the right side of the spectrum. I have no fantasies about our program being Sir Galahad, but I hope we aren't going to the lengths of, say, UNC.
I can appreciate that sentiment. It's also why it's so easy for me to pull someone like Brandon Facyson, aspiring heart surgeon, co-lead the team with interceptions, and a starting cornerback? I don't think we hear that kind of athlete around the country anymore.
Case in point: Hand switching from engineering to sports marketing. If he avoids injury and goes on to the NFL, he likely won't need his degree anyway. But it's sad to see anyone giving up an academic dream for an average 3-5 year career. Not that every person dreams of, or should get, a college education, but the culture of "academics don't matter" is pervasive.
Hopefully I didn't offend any marketing majors; not my intent.
The story is sickening because it happens period. I don't think it really matters where it happens, it just needs to stop happening, which considering the money made by athletic departments, I know coaches, handlers, boosters, etc, will always feed the players egos and will let them get away with practically anything.
This bugs me for a variety of reasons, but mostly because it plays right into the stereotype the writer says of most fans that:
Some teams take things too far, but to think that any team is 100% squeaky clean is a pipe dream. If you grow up in a rough area, that is what you know. That doesn't make it right, but they need someone to teach them right rather than hold their hands and feed their ego which is what 'handlers' do. I think that is why some players do not full mature until they make it to the NFL or venture into the real world, when they get the reality check and someone puts them in their place.
Is it sterotype or cynicism? I have often wondered about things like that. Last year, the big story was Manziel and it continued during the offseason and this fall. Then we had the Cam Newton story which dominated the headlines leading up to Auburn national championship game. Every year, there always seem to be a story about rule breaking and the instutitions seem to be flaunting it, daring the NCAA to do something about. UNC and the on-going academic scandal which has not been resolved. FSU and the "Free Shoes" story. The list seem to go on and on.
I find this statement to be curious,
Are you suggesting even Virginia Tech is not 100% squeaky clean? I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just found this to be curious.
I somewhat agree with this. Recently, the case of Incogito would back this assertion. I think it's not just in the NFL, but in the NBA as well.
I think it goes beyond college. I think this happens even in high school. The horrible rape case surrounding several high school football players in a town somewhere in Indiana (?) threw an ugly light over a town that enabled those high school kids to get away with drinking, drugs, skipping classes as long as their school were winning games.
My $0.02:
Somewhere in between. There's so many NCAA rules, some are bound to get broken, some on accident, some for bad reasons, and some for good reasons. But to think athletes at all big schools are on a payroll, or every blue chip recruit is bribed? No way.
100%? No... I've had friends work with the football team and tutor athletes. I've heard stories of former players getting small gift cards to stores or communicating with 'runners-in-training'. I've heard from tutors that some athletes try to pressure their tutors to do their work for them (often times unsuccessfully).
I'd like to believe around 90% though, which is impressive given our coaches can only control so much of a player's lifes. I've never heard of an 'Hundred dollar handshakes' or anything about shady recruiting (although when a visiting recruit stays with a host player, I'm sure that player takes him to parties, introduces him to girls, etc., but that's speculation)
We put a lot of pressure on these kids, but often forget... they're just kids. A lot of them want to go home at the end of the day and play XBox, or go to parties and meet girls. How many of us were fully matured during/right after college?
Look at all of us being civil and resonable! For that, I give you +1 for a levelheaded response, which deserves the proper response from me.
This, I think, is the biggest issue facing college sports, whether it be football, basketball, or even cricket. The instutition, being the NCAA, is so arcane and backward thinking they are actually harming themselves.
This would not surprise me at all. I mean, that's what you want to do if you were hosting some big-name recruits and wanted to show what college life was all about at Virginia Tech.
Yeah, it really does boil down to the NCAA being such a farce that teams really do just dare them to do something. The best they can do often times is a slap on the wrist which does nothing but say, "hey, don't do that again or you'll make us look bad." Administrators and professors are scared of the athletic departments and so is the NCAA, so who is there to put a check on the kids, when the individuals schools don't even really get checked until a situation is completely out of control? If a professor fails a student athlete, he is ridiculed for being too hard or for failing the school. If the NCAA cracks down on a school, that losses the school money which in turn would probably make the NCAA loss some money. The system is built to crumble at any sign of rebellion. The NCAA is either going to always be too strict and be considered 'overlords' or they are going to be too lenient and be considered soft and a joke.
Well, the NCAA is trying to fight back. How? The Academic Graduation Rate or something like that. UConn got slapped with it and look at them now.
It's one reason why Virginia Tech is not shy about trumpeting how successful they are in graduating their athletes, and they should be proud because it's no small feat to have players return for their senior years and graduate with a degree in their hands.
i'm too lazy (well, should be doing work instead of TKP) to look it up, but are graduation rates adjusted for athletes who leave early to enter careers as professional athletes?
I think it would be interesting to see what percentage of athletes who don't get degrees spend/spent time in the NFL/NBA
Yes, I believe that one-and-done are factored in as well as those who depart in their junior year.
There has been some players who departed to go pro before their senior year, but finished their education while in pro ball. Kevin Jones, I believe, was one of them. Of course, that's pre-graduation/academic progress mumbo jumbo thing invented by the NCAA and US DOE.
Absolutely. I love walking through the tunnel and seeing the tribute to seniors and how many of them have the scroll next to their name signifying they graduated. It seems rare we don't have a kid graduate and usually it seems that when we don't, it is because they transferred.
After the UNCheat exposure and non-punishment by the NCAA, nothing surprises me anymore.
That was a powerful piece. There's a lot to take away from it, however the first thing that resonated with me is these kids aren't student athletes. The more I read about how successful programs stay afloat (Oklahoma State being another recent behind the scenes look), the more it becomes obvious being a student is simply something that gets in the way of playing football. Oh, and these kids seem like they're being put through the grinder at the low cost of tuition, which is as much of investment in their future as me playing pickup football on the Drillfield was to mine.
I feel bad for the so called student athlete. If a scholarship English major writes a book on the side and he gets it published, receives 100k, the university will hold him up as a shining light of literary success. Look at what our English dept can develop. Substitute english major with student athlete and your program is on probation for 5 years.
I have said all along that being a pro football player is no different than any other career path, yet it is the only one where we tell young men to have a backup in case it doesnt work. No one tells the aspiring astronaut "you know, its really hard to be an astronaut. Make sure you have a backup plan". However, if you made professional athletics a major, then guys have dreamed their whole lives of playing ball wouldnt have to worry about geology class. It could be a combo of some teaching classes, phys ed, communications, etc. Then if they suffer the rare careerending injury, they are prepared for coaching, mentoring other athletes, etc.
If the athlete wants to go full Facyson and play ball and study engineering, more power to them.
I don't feel bad for them at all. Look at all the opportunities they receive as part of being an athlete. If they don't take advantage of them, why do I have to feel bad for them?
The problem is that they have to wait 5 years to take advantage of said opportunity. Say you're a college tennis player at VT, and want to give private lessons for $50/hr (which is extremely reasonable by the way). This is an NCAA violation.
What if Luther Maddy is an Entrepreneur, and wants to start his own football summer camp for kids? NCAA says he can't profit off that.
What if we had a Mechanical Engineer on our basketball team who fixed cars/engines to earn extra cash? NCAA says he can't do that.
I understand it's a complicated issue. In a perfect world, these athletes could do these things, and a business deal with a fan wouldn't be a conflict of interest. But, this isn't the world we live in. Sucks for 'Student Athletes' who have to say no to opportunities to make money.
Yet- they have a lot of the same opportunities non athletes have- they can go to school, get an education, and be prepared to have a career, just like everyone else. Except, they can do it without having to pay tuition, and with the help of tutors, etc. The average student doesn't get these advantages.
Remember, they aren't being forced to leave school early. They leave early because they have the opportunity to make money that most students will never be able to make. That's why I have such a hard time seeing the plight of the student athlete as any worse than the plight of the student.
There's definitely free tutoring for students (at least for mechanical engineering there was, I used it for 3 or so classes). Not much of a difference between practicing 20 hours a week in exchange for free tuition and working 20 hours a week to earn tuition money (currently $5,727.50/semester according to the Bursar). Beyond that, you're not a marketing tool for your university, the athlete is.
About 1.6% of all NCAA Football athletes go pro from College.. so your point that we have the opportunity to make money isn't really valid here.
And have you ever looked at how many athlete's that have left early actually went back or finished there degree's.. Mike Vick did it.... and so have plenty others
Dont feel bad for indentured servants? Because thats what they are. I mean their scholly have to be renewed annually. So that "guaranteed" free education isnt really guaranteed.
I said I feel for them. I do not require that you do.
Sorry for the misreply for Rocket... my galaxy did me wrong.
I worked my behind off during school, two majors in four years, and no one paid me a cent for it. In fact, I've got a ton of debt for it. And I'll never have the opportunity they have to make the sort of money you can make in professional athletics. Admittedly, most student athletes never will make that sort of money, but free tuition, tutors, and all the other perks would sure have been nice to have in college for myself.
So no, I don't feel bad at all.
It's evident student athletes are getting screwed based on how much money the NCAA, its executives, coaches, bowls, sponsors, television, media, etc... make. Everyone is getting theirs, but the players, and without them the product wouldn't exist. It's even more damning since the NFL and NCAA are essentially in collusion to keep players in college for 3 seasons.
I always find the "I worked hard in school, have loan debt, ..." argument interesting. I am in that same scenario. However, it makes the assumption that all of these kids are in college to get an education. Many of them are not. Recent reports have made that clear. They are there to play football. In the case, all the tutors, tuition, etc that you would be grateful for are a burden to them, not a blessing, for some athletes. They are there for 3 years, trying not to get injured, so they can enter the NFL draft. In one pass amateur athletics in college has made a mockery of both amateurism and higher education.
Thanks Joe. Couldnt have said it better myself.
I agree different things could be done - but the schools also make money off of the average student paying ridiculous tuition as well. I'd also like to point out that for most schools, VT included, part of your tuition goes to the athletic department. If they're making so much money, why do they still charge students for it as well?
I do think the NCAA should attempt to make changes so that the athletes are students first, athletes second, but I realize that would most likely never happen given the money involved.
There's a ton of problems with higher education and the profit system of these schools in general, but I have no more sympathy for the athletes than every other student or person who's effected by the ruse of "higher education."
I can see your argument but most of us are not there just to play football or whatever sport. Those kids don't make it past 9th or 10th grade. "football student-athletes competing in the Football Bowl Subdivision, earned a 71 percent Graduation Success Rate"
71 percent that's pretty darn good for people who don't want to be there
If you've read the article, you know that the kids don't necessarily have to put in much effort to pass classes, and thus graduate. I'm sure many do want to be there for school as well, but many don't
That's all fine and well. The majority of student athletes need a degree because they won't have a career in sports. The NCAA has hammered that home with its "go pro on something else commercials".
However, the minority of the kids--the ones who don't need a degree because they have a pro career--are the ones that move the needle. They are the same kids who leave in 3 years, even though some could be first round picks in two, and perhaps some leave in 3 with an accelerated degree. And based on what I've read about the demand of being a D-1 football player (that of a full time job), and how demanding college is (another full time job), in most cases I'd say a 3-year degree is a product of being "kept eligible". Just like there are one or two Gates or Jobs in th business world, I'm sure there are some players that can burn it at both ends, but that's not the norm.
In conclusion:
1. The minority of the players generate the majority of interest in college football (and all college sports given football's overwhelming popularity).
2. Some of that minority is on the 3-year, not 5-year plan, even though a few are good enough to be drafted in <=2 years.
3. That minority is forced to bide their time in college even though their career is going pro. The more "pro-ready" a player is, the better he makes the college game.
4. Colleges are doing a bunch of absurd shit to keep their players eligible.
5. The players that generate the interest, that could draw a salary in the NFL, are instead forced to stay in college and accept tuition as compensation.
But you are not an athlete. Sorry they generate millions of bux for their school. I have lots of debt too. Maybe if played little league, middle, high school ball maybe I get a full ride. But I didnt. They did and I do not hold it against them just like I do not hold it against you for going into debt to get educated. Both are choices.
Example while at VT a friend of mine graduated EE. While on a job interview he called his professor to see if the pay offer was good enough. The prof said turn it down you can get more. And guess what? Professor called a former colleague and got the kid another interview and Right out of college 125K/year. While not the league minimum, still awesome money. The professor got the kid setup with an apartment before he even started working. Thats a violation for a student athlete but not for an engineering major. Thats what I feel bad about.
A more legitimate comparison is an Athlete and Grad Student. Both work about 20 hours a week and are compensated with tuition. The difference? The Grad Student could accept a couple hundred dollars to appear in a local commercial. The athlete cannot. How is that fair?
Happy 900th turkey leg. :)
20 hours a week? Sure, that's what it says on the stipend contract, but it's nowhere near true. During my Ph.D., I routinely worked 60-80 hours a week. Try telling any advisor that you're not allowed to work more than 20 hours and they'll tell you to find a new line of work ;)
When I was in grad school, it was also a condition of my contract that I was not allowed to obtain income from any other source - no part time work, nothing. I believe the grad school has relaxed this requirement a bit, but you have to demonstrate significant need for them to allow you to get extra work or finances. Your advisor also may have something to say about it, as well.
I don't know where I come down on the whole student-athlete debate, and was considering the comparison of an athlete with a grad student. I'm conflicted. An athlete gets a similar deal that I did in grad school, except that when he's done he can make millions, or at least a few hundred thousand per year. Me? I paid my dues, worked (basically) below minimum wage (considering all the hours I actually worked) for five years to get a Ph.D. and am now supported by a highly sought-after federal grant that pays me just below the average salary of a high-school janitor.
WOW, That's why I'm not getting my Phd!
In all seriousness, I feel bad for any student who's prevented from entering the open market. If you have something you can make money from, whether it's a smile on a commercial or tech start up, you should be able to persue that opportunity. I had buddies who worked for the Athletic Department Video 'team', Filming every practice and game and then editing it in exchange for a scholarship. A lot of them did freelance work on the side for spending cash. That's how it should be, for athletes and grad students.
Also, I believe about 5% of college athletes go pro, and 'going pro' includes the Sean Glennons of the world who are cut after a couple weeks (Though I agree, I think all of us would like to work even just a few weeks at that pay scale).
VT is pretty hospitable about start-ups, and from what I hear, they are pretty common in the engineering disciplines. I was in the life sciences, so the issues were mostly with intellectual property, patenting, etc. Basically, anything a grad student does is property of the institution and the student never stands to gain anything from it, even if it turns out to be a wonder-drug worth millions. It's a complex situation.
In some sense, I can see how athletes have it made. On the other hand, they certainly are being used by the institution for profit. Then too, all a university really is these days is an institution to make money. Consider research grants - VT has an overhead rate of 65% with several big federal entities. So 65% of all grant money goes to the institution, not the faculty member and his/her team. So if I'm the head of the lab and need $350,000 (a modest amount) for a project, then I really need to ask for $1 million so that VT can have their 65% cut and I still get the money I need for my work. Now THAT should make one think about where tuition dollars are going, if the overhead is going to facilities and "keeping the lights on" as the people in charge put it.
This also reminds me of how a student group or organization is forced to fund themselves through the school, which then takes a portion of the funds you raise.
For example, with my senior design project we had to raise the funding on our own, and while some of the funds we raised came from our department, a percentage of every penny we raised for our project went to a completely different part of the school. This on a project for VT and representing VT.
As a former NCAA Athlete myself I think a lot of regular students don't understand our daily schedule so I will put it all out there for ya'll to see
Monday-Friday 5am - wake up 630 weights 730 morning classes till 10 11ish. Quick snack at 12 then practice at 1 to 3. Class at 4 to 8. Dinner at 8 then tutoring somewhere in between 8 and 12pm.
Its a hectic life. For people saying athlete's should not get paid think about it we spend over 40 hours a week on sports and then add in being a "STUDENT" that's a lot of work. I'm not saying pay them 50k or something but 3-5k a year would be reasonable considering most of us can't have a job. Athletics is our job and when schools make millions off of our talents we should receive some sort of compensation for that.
Yeah yeah we get a free degree.. thats absolute BS, just because schools give out scholarships doesn't mean all of them are fully funded. I'm talking maybe 40% of all Division 1 football programs are fully funded so the other 60% has to work with what they have. Some schools might not have the same amount of $ but the Athlete puts in the same amount of work on and off the field.
It amazes me how people put collegiate athlete's on a pedestal when most of us won't even go pro or have the ability to go pro.
I took out a loan for college and even was on scholarship...
END of RANT
This is often overlooked in the grand scheme of things. I do not have any access to statistics, but there is what, 32, NFL teams, and that's it. There's no developmental league similar to the NBA's D-league or European basketball. The NFL is pretty much the end of the ride unless those athletes are willing to forgo the promises of multimillion dollars contract and go north to Canada.
1.6% of NCAA Football athletes make it to the pro's. I wrote a paper on this for my Sport Business class an used this website. It has a lot of information and #'s that pertain to this topic. NCAA
Not to mention the MANDATORY travel every weekend
Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of respect for the student athletes that work hard, do their best, and stay out of trouble. I think they should get some sort of additional stipend.
But these kids in the football programs who do crap like in the article? They're the one's who people suggest should get paid, since football is such a money making enterprise for the schools. How can you justify paying them, looking at the things they do or get away with?
If the schools pay them, maybe they'll actually care what kind of people they are
I know it's probably different for an NCAA Div I football athlete, but here's how it is for a NAIA XC athlete:
You spend 1.5+ hours running a day running. You lift in the mornings (30 minutes minimum). There's a good chance you have a phys ed class eating up 3-5 hours of your week to help with running. You have team meetings to go to. You have a job to do 10 hours a week. Your long run is 2+ hours. You have workouts that leave you exhausted. Your expected to find time to eat even though your practice lets out when the dining hall closes. You have to go to the training room, whose hours are that of the dining hall. You are expected to do 60+ hours of homework a week. You are in class 15+ hours a week.
None of your professors like you because they think the college is giving you benefits you don't deserve (it's not). None of your classmates like you because they think the professor is giving you benefits you don't deserve (they're not). You like none of your classmates or professors because they don't understand that the reason you don't get everything done is that you are expected to allocate 95 hours out of 168 to what is essentially your full time job, forgetting that you are already only committing out of 122 because you're human and you sleep.
Being an athlete really kind of sucks. Just to put things in perspective.
And those are the kind of athletes who deserve to be paid. They put in an incredible amount of work and sacrifice to do what they love and represent the school. Unfortunately, that won't happen, the money isn't there.
On the other hand, big time division 1 football players, I think we can all agree, get to experience it a little differently, and that's where my problem with paying them comes from. I'm not saying all athletes are like this, but remember most of the discussions you hear aren't about paying all student athletes, just the big time ones.
I'm just so used to hearing about the way universities treat students, much of this isn't surprising. I'm over a lot of the stories of how universities prop up athletes when they might not be suited to the college environment. Some athletes don't really try to be students, and the universities support them. Some athletes try to be students but have a hard time with it. Some students are athletes. I get it. It's hard to support the way it is. But I get it.
But those things that really p!ss me off in this piece are the ones where they talk about how the student athletes treat other people. The beating of the gay guy. The intimidation of the woman.
If this is what happens when we enable some athletes to be less than students, count me out.