It looked like we have some success in the running game when we run the power stuff. Pulling Wyatt Teller is a pretty scary sight, and it seems like our running backs were getting 3-4 yrds a pop when we lead with a guard. It looked like we were close to breaking a few longer runs but Joel Caleb / JC couldn't didn't run through tackles, and Sam Rogers, as awesome of a football player he is, is not the smoothest of runners.
French or others - what are your thoughts on why we get away from this? Are we more successfull running the base outside zone / stretch stuff? Power running + play-action has got to be better than what we're doing right now....right?
Does anyone else think Brewer is not right? I thought his throwing motion looked a little weird last night, especially in the first half. There were several throws where his motion looked kinda jerky, like he was really getting into it, and the ball just came out flat. I know he doesn't have Logan's arm, but there were several throws where the lack of power baffled me. I can't remember the specifics, but on a bootleg action to the right side of the field, Brewer had I. Ford running wide open down the sideline...except Brewer could not get the ball there with any zip and the CB broke it up. I understand it's not easy to throw on the run, but it wasn't like it was a 50 yard bomb? He had Cam on a corner post route too that probably would have went for a touchdown...but the ball was 10 yards short? I'm not saying he should be benched, but if he's not healthy, I hope he or the coaches acknowledge it. Just my $0.02. Maybe he was just off in the first half, but it looked like such a departure from OSU Michael Brewer that it really made me wonder if something was up.
And the last thing I'll say...I think we're going to see a significant physical upgrade at both safety spots next year. I think the infusion of CJ Reavis, Holland Fischer, and Anthony Shegog will add alot more size and physicality to our safety spots, assuming they get the mental stuff down. Granted, it's not easy to tackle 250 lb running backs moving downhill, but I'm optimistic Reavis / Fischer / Shegog will be better tacklers. Disclaimer: KJ34 is an excellent hitter...except for last night. It's well documented that Bonner has missed many key tackles over the last few years.
Comments
I agree about the power running game. I really don't like when Brewer is in the shotgun with a RB 5 yards behind him. the running back has to run 7 to 10 yards just to get back to the line of scrimmage. In this game and other games this season, it seemed to me that we ran the ball much better the few times Brewer was under center.
After settling down from last night's dissappointment, I want to know why our offensive recruiting has suffered so much. I would think having Bud Foster's defense to smother the other offense and create extra chances with turnovers would be a big selling point. Were/are our offense coaches so poor at recruiting? Is it the scheme? Lack of NFL representation? If we could average 30 points on offense we would be VERY hard to beat.
Legged because I don't understand why someone would neg you for this. These are good observations, I pretty much agree with everything you said.
I'm a little worried about the safety position next year. You're right, I think we'll have the talent there, but they'll be so green going into the Ohio State game. I'll be happy with our experience at corner, but the safety positions will be ripe for the picking. Which I guess contradicts my comment about their green-ness. Help me out, terriblemetaphorguy.
I too have the same thoughts as you......and I would like to add some other thoughts. Virginia Tech has always looked so much better under center. The running backs beside the QB baffles me on the runs because we are obviously not very good at that. (Heres hoping French can shed some light into this) I remember the days when we would line up and "smashmouth" the football with the running back getting the ball with a head of steam. I know....some are gonna say we do not have the offensive line for that.....and I will tell you BS! Our offensive line is 280 lbs. plus...why the hell don't they just hike the ball and bull rush trying to drive the defense back the way they came from.
IMHO todays Virginia Tech offense is loaded and I mean loaded with young athletic playmakers. Why in the hell do we have a play book so "sophisticated" that everyone messes up on alignment, motion and pre-snap penalties. Why cant we just simplify the offense and learn and be "GREAT" at 15 to 20 plays instead of being average and mediocre with a 70-80 play playbook.
I mean lets really think about this.......because I have! We have I. Ford and C. Phillips, 2 young receivers with great hands. W. Burn who usually catches everything thrown to him. Bucky Hodges and R. Mallick, 2 top notch tight ends that are playmakers. We have great young powerbacks (Yea...I know they are hurt right now), WE GOT SPEED......that my friends is something you can not teach. WE got M. Brewer, a game manager and mostly Accurate QB ( with a few horrible mistakes thrown each game )....but not a strong arm. We also have a guy B. Motley that has a cannon of an arm and can run faster then most running backs....and he is being wasted on a red shirt. Yep....I said it....wasted! In todays society with the money kids are making in the NFL.......why would you redshirt a player that you think is gonna be special for him to possibly leave early to get paid. I know that it's great to graduate and get your degree but kids these days also know that you only have a few great years being young and chasing your dreams to be an NFL player and your only 1 injury away from being a 1st or 2nd round draft pick to being an undrafted free agent.
With that being said, and I'm really not a fan of the 2 QB system.....but with Motley and Brewer available....you have the best of both worlds. Guys we have the talent......we have the coaching......hell we have friggin CFB!!!!!! Lets simplify the offense, get the ball to the playmakers and score some friggin points! How hard is that....I just do not understand.
OK, guys my rant is over.......The thing is.....I live and die by college football. I friggin love it and I love my HOKIES! Unfortunately for me I let a bunch of 18 to 21 year olds get the best of my emotions during football season. They either make or break my week........If we just simplify the offense......we could win every game!
Motley is not being wasted on a redshirt. He redshirted last year. This is just one of his years of eligibility.
He's an injury recovery.
I know I'm just weird but I always see Holland Fisher's name misspelled on here as Fischer. I never understand this. Fischer seems to be the more uncommon way to spell that name
Legged you just to get you past 666.
I have lost interest in the concept if iffensive identity. Our output is so far below our potential that identity seems like a few steps away. Let's start with basic competence.
Agree on all points. And while Brewer have me a memory of a lifetime with the win over Ohio State, I think we will be much stronger at QB in 2016 than right now. I can't tell you how excited about Andrew Ford and Chris Durkin.
So, forgive me for a simple and likely stupid question...
If were just kind of punting on the next two years anyway and putting all of our eggs into the 2016 basket, why aren't we trying one of the Freshmen now? I mean, wouldn't 2016 be even better with a junior who has a season and a half of actual game experience under his belt?
Because, forgive me for being pessimistic, but the me that has been a fan of this program for a decade and a half can already see the "this is only his first year starting, wait until next year" excuses if things don't work out...
I guess I don't see the upside to Brewer at this point, beat case scenario he's gone after next year. Is the notion that next year things are going to be in line to compete for a conference championship next year and he gives us the best shot at that?
Because if it's an experience issue that keeps us from starting a freshman, the excuse for brewer now is that he's only actually started ~8 games. Arguments could be made that ford has been " in the system" for longer.
Redshirts. Give us an extra year of practice now, and playing later.
Plus, if Brewer plays both of these years, Lefty isn't starting 3 or 4 qbs in 3 or 4 years.
There's a massive difference between a redshirt freshman QB and a true freshman QB both physically and mentally and that is especially the case with Durkin and Ford. It really doesn't make that much chance to play them this year. Ford isn't there physically yet and Durkin is still learning the playbook and is raw but by the spring I think they will be ready to compete for the starting job next year.
But this is the part I can't wrap my head around: if we're admitting that there going to be a wide open QB competition next offseason, what's the harm in giving Leal a shot now?
My problem is that there's not a logical reason for keeping Brewer in now that can't also result in playing someone else. If we're playing for now out Leal in and see what's up, if we're playing for the future put ford, durkin, or even motley in and see what's up.
At some point it feels like the only argument for brewer is "because the coaches say so," which to be honest doesn't work for a portion of the fan base after the last, you know, decade.
Leal got beaten out for the starting position TWICE in a 6 month time frame, how anyone could still be clamoring for him to start now is really beyond me... we saw what he brings to the table this January
"Clamoring" is such a mis-characterization of what im saying i cannt help but feel like youre being disingenuous.
Im just having a discussion on an internet message board, no ones "clamoring" for anything. Im not irate, emotional, or calling for anyones head. Im just talking About this team. Goodness.
Because Leal isn't good enough, plain and simple.
Because it is much easier to deny our existing problems by saying - 'Wait until next year' or 'Wait until year after next' or even 'Wait until three years from now' than it is to admit our program is at it's current level. By delaying hope, we can stall the disappointment in some folks minds.
That being said, I don't think that Brewer is THE problem. I think he is what he is - which is the best alternative that we have by a pretty fair margin. I also think that our coaching staff was hoping he would be a savior to the offense, and when they discovered in preseason he wasn't, they delayed announcing the starter. of course, when I suggested this on here in preseason, I was downvoted like a heretic for not agreeing with the preseason sentiment he would be fantastic.
Brewer is the best we have. He's good, not great. Leal isn't ready, partially because the coaching staff has NEVER had faith in him and given him adequate snaps to be able to lead the team. Motley is just a hope for the future without foundation, as are Ford & Durkin. But hey, time will tell us in three years or so, so I guess we should all just keep waiting. In the mean time, get used to the new normal. Brewer's not bad, he's just an average ACC QB, on an average ACC team.
I have nothing to add to this post I think you killed it. It's just a huge huge bummer to admit. It's very demoralizing admitting that you're really no better than a middle of the pack ACC coastal program.
It's a double bummer when the plan to become better than that is "hope we get better on offense somehow in a couple of years."
It's even more depressing when you have very little faith in the weak armed Ford or the fullback Durkin. We don't have a QB in the program that elicites and hope for me.
Ford doesn't have a weak arm. Sure he could get stronger and he is but he does not have a weak arm by any standards. Also Durkin isn't a fullback, if he can work on his mechanics he can be a very good thrower.
It's crazy to write both Durkin and Ford off before they have been given any chance to prove themselves.
Not sure we will ever be successful without a running QB. , which mask a lot of o line decencies. I think this is probably the worst O line in the ACC , with 3 seniors. ( haven't seen WF play) Our best seasons were with scrambling , running Qbs. Clark, Vick, Vick , Taylor, Thomas ( exception Druckenmiller ). Brewer can run , but is too fragile and seems he has been told not to. After 7 games this senior dominated line cannot line up properly or execute snap count properly. After years of neglect, poor recruiting, & poor offensive coaching it will take a long time to field a competent o line. I Hope I am wrong. Few Qbs would be competent with this line.
I was thinking the same exact thing. Brewer can move a little bit but he is certainly a pass first, pocket passer. If we had big, physical line that could get good consistent protection it would be fine to have a pocket passer, but we don't have that type of line. Also, looking at the top teams in the nation, almost all of them have a "dual threat" QB.
The thing I like most about having a mobile QB is the pressure that it can take off the rest of the offense. If we're in a situation like the first half of the Pitt game where we have no running game and the QB is out of rhythm and can't make throws, a good running QB can still move the ball without having success through the air. Plus it can open up space for the RB, give the receivers more time to get open and take some of the pressure off the OL.
I really think if we had a QB that had good running ability we would be 6-1 at worst right now. It just seems like with the talent we have right now (Ford, Phillips, Hodges, Marshawn, etc.) that if we had a QB that could make plays running and make throws on the run we wouldn't see the extended offensive droughts like the first half of the ECU and Pitt games where we look completely hopeless because the OL can't get a good push or the QB can't find a rhythm making throws.
Brewer is a mobile QB. Look at the people he has made miss him when the pocket collapses. He just isn't a threat for down field running.
He does have good pocket presence, I'm not disputing that. But his ability to move around behind the line of scrimmage doesn't really seem to do much for him at times. He is reliant pretty much solely on his arm to make plays, and if he can't do that, this offense seems to completely break down. If we had a QB that could actually run down field and get 1st downs with his feet, I don't feel like this team would go basically quarters at a time without moving the ball like it seems to do.
Just looking at opposing teams, Barrett in the OSU game and Williams in the UNC game basically kept their offenses moving with their feet and their teams in the game despite not being able to make throws. My point was mostly that not having a QB with the capability to carry this offense from time to time with his feet when he can't make throws greatly limits our offense.
If brewer plays this year and next hes playing 3 qbs in 4 years by 2016. If ford plays right now hes playing 3 qbs in 4 years by 2016.
And you're assuming Durkin won't be the starter at some point? Motley also? What has Ford done in his time on campus that we should guarantee him a starting job for the next 2-3 years?
It was a for example, durkin, motley, whatever its all the same math.
I was responding directly to the statement that its brewer for two year because that means loeffler is only starting 3 qbs in 4 years. I responded by saying playing a new QB now if its any of those guys who will be here longer than brewer is the exact same theoretical number of QBs in the same timeframe.
And it's only the same math if Ford (the example you used) is the starter for the next couple of years... which would mean you are already giving up on the other QBs on the roster ever starting, otherwise the math isn't the same
The argument is he same though. If youre playing for the future, pick a guy with a future beyond next year and give him game experience, so once you get to the year hes theoretically starting anyway, hes got a season and a half of experience at the collegiate level. I dont give a flip who it is, pick one and give them experience that will pay dividends in the future, rather than wasting our tume with a guy whos not even going to be here next year.
Everyones pointing to 2016 anyway, right? So go all in on 2016 now. If whomever, Ford, Durkin, Motley isnt the one youll know a heck of a lot sooner by playing them now than waiting to give them their first start in fall of 2016.
You know who I can absolutely assure you will not be the man to run this offense in 2016? Michael Brewer.
So, if thats the case, whats the end game here with brewer? Whats the plan? Whats the goal? Where is this guy taking us over the next season and a half? In saying if were investing in the future lets invest in the future.
If we play Ford or Durkin now, we don't get to play them in 2018.
We're circling 2016...but we also still want to be good beyond that.
Sure but if starting experience is what matters then get their starting experience in now. All yiure doing is shifting the window down, amd creating the "next year" situstuion again. Everyones circling 2016, but then well have a brand new starter, so then the excuse is "well of course the offense isnt good, the QB hasnt had any starts!"
My point is that we have the opportunity to mitigate that risk now. Theres a chance that neither of those guys are the answer, isnt it better to know now? Because if we dont find out until 2016, then were waiting another two years for whover fresman X is to go through their process...
We still have 2015...when there's no redshirt concerns.
Exactly.
We are redshirting them this year, it's just a fact. Like I said before both of them will likely have a chance to compete for the starting job in the spring.
who are you suggesting won't be here next year? ... the guy that won't be here next year is Leal and that is the person you keep bringing up to start, lol
No, not at all, even with all the injuries, VT has a very realistic chance to win the division
the end game with Brewer is he:
a) gives us the best chance to win now
b) won the job in a month, in an entirely new system over a guy that had 1 1/2 years in the system
c) allows us to redshirt our freshmen QBs, so they can actually learn the system, learn how to prepare and play at the college level, so when it is their turn we have a chance to compete
The year after next my mistake.
So i guess heres a question, what would it take, on the field, to convinceyou that Brewer isnt the guy who gives us the best chance to win now? Is there anything? Because, were not winning now. Somif hes our best shot, i dunno...then were in a pretty dire situation, eh?
I think any team in the nation that has as it's stated goal to run the ball, trying to play without it's top 3 RBs could be considered to be in a pretty dire situation.... but as of today, Brewer has the highest completion % in VT history among QBs that have 200 attempts, VT averaged 1.2 ypc vs Pitt, what QB on the roster could win a game with that kind of running game?
When we had our top 3 RBs he was throwing picks like a madman.
Also you didnt answer my question: is there anything he could do on the field to make you question whether he gives this team the best chance to win? If the answer is no, thats cool. Im just trying to figure out your position here.
I suppose he could start throwing balls to the opposite colored jerseys on every play.
There have been a couple games this season where a case could be made that he was :)
Sure, if he starts looking worse than Leal did in the Sun Bowl, I'll call for a back-up... just as a reminder, that would be a sub 50% completion rate, and a 8% INT rate.. Brewer is above 60% completions, and in NO GAME THIS YEAR has a 8% INT rate... so while you may say he was throwing INTs like a madman, keep in mind that at his worst, he was better than Leal
My position is that Brewer>Leal .. and either is better than burning a redshirt on a freshman
Ok, we disagree on if a half of play with backup reps against a top 15 team is a valid sample size on which to make a comparison, but at least we have established a baseline.
That is all we have to base Leal on, that IS his body of work outside a snap or two with the 2nd string in mop up duty. In addition to that, Leal lost the starting job twice, to 2 different QBs, one of which never had a college snap, the other of which never took a snap in a VT style offense.. it's not just me that doesn't hold Leal in the highest regard
Youre right that is all we have to judge leal on. At this point im suggesting we increase that sample size to get a more accurate judgement on the situation. You disagree with the notion that it would be a valid exercise, thats cool this is the kind of thing that we will never agree on and depsnt really matter anyway, its just a discussion for an internet discussion board. cheers.
Here's the kicker:
The coaches (who get to make the decision) get to base it off of practices and the games. Their sample size is much bigger than what we as fans see. Leal lost the starting job despite having all those 1st string reps in the spring. You have yet to illustrate why you think one week of 1st string reps and throwing him into a game is going to make him a better option than he was in the spring. You just repeatedly say "I think we're going to lose anyway, so let's just play him".
Give an example of why Leal is better than Brewer, and I'll listen. If you just say "We've lost three games with Brewer and zero with Leal," that's not an effective argument.
I never said "i think were going to lose anway." Please argue with things im actually saying.
I get your point, I totally do. "Trust the coaches." Its a point that absolutely has philosophical merits. I understand where you are coming from. I respect your position even if i disagree with it.
I disagree with it because i was instructed to "trust the coaches" as the offense was driven over a decade into the smoldering wreck it became that we now find ourselves rebuilding out of. So, unfortunately my "trust" levels with this team and offense are at a premium. Said trust needs to be earned back, and were not there yet. I dont think my position is necessarily right or wrong, but it is where i am right now. Either you respect the logic behind my position like i do yours or you dont. Im fine either way.
I just fail to see any logic other than "Brewer is bad, anyone else must be better". There is zero evidence that Leal is better than Brewer, or that any other QB is better. I guess I just can't agree with your position because it goes against all evidence available.
Again, you are continually arguing against things i never said. I never once said that leal is better or must be better. Never, not one single time. You say theres no evicence, i say lets collect some more evidence and come to a more informed conclusion. You say no, the conclusion is made so no more evidence is necessary. I disagree and thats fine.
Im not asking you to agree with me, im asking you respect my position and understand my thought process even if you disagree, like I do yours. If you cant, wont, or dont want to, thats cool too.
Wrong again. I say there's evidence supporting the fact that Leal isn't as good as Brewer. Leal had the starting position, and lost it. Leal played in the Sun Bowl, and looked awful.
That's far more evidence for Leal being worse than Brewer than there is evidence for the opposite, of which there is none.
And if you're point isn't that Leal is better than Brewer, than what's your point? Throw away the season by putting in a QB you won't even say is better?
I've stated my point very clearly several times. Good night.
Why do we need a larger sample size for Leal?
Same reason one would want a larger sample size for anything, in order to make a more informed judgement. If you dont think such a judgement is necessary, then you woudlnt see the value in such an exercise.
Im personally not of the position that anybstarting position on a team is an entitlement. I think its something that should be earned with every week. If a player is not performing at a level on which to retain his position, i see no problems with seeing if the next man up can. To me, brewer hasnt performed well enough to just be granted the starting position without challenge. A lot of people disagree with me and thats cool too. Literally nothing will change either way.
Will it curb some of the cyclical and contrarian questions?
Maybe a change. Motley can run well, and chuck it down the field. Who knows, with him we may get lucky.
Wait? Why 2016? Isn't VT most successful when their D is at the top of their game?
VT loses Dadi, Marshall, Maddy (assuming he gets that waiver this year), Clarke, and most likely Fuller. 2016 is probably not the year. 2015 and 2017/18 seem more appropriate years.
I just came to this conversation late, but thought I'd reiterate my thoughts.
I'm off the Brewer bandwagon. I'm not yet openly calling for him to be replaced, but one more loss between Miami and BC and I'll be vocal about this. He isn't the guy I hoped he'd be, and we're not going to be able to make him into something he's not by next year.
Ford/Durkin/Motley is the future, and at some point (this year) I think we'll need to take the training wheels off and get one or more of them ready for next year. UGA seems to start freshman QBs (Stafford was a true fresh and Murray was a redshirt because of injury) and by time they get to their junior and senior years, they're great. Hackenberg at PSU was thrown into the fire as a true freshman. Playing a true freshman can work.
This season isn't going to where we hoped. The 'future is now' attitude that led to Brewer starting was a nice sentiment, and I'm on the verge of calling it a failed experiment.
I don't know why anyone is talking about Leal at this point, in my opinion he isn't part of the conversation. Sure, give him some minutes if you want, but not under the delusion that he's the QB of the future, which is what I think we should be focusing on now.
In two games I'll have these thoughts fleshed out a bit more. But for now, I'll just go as far as to say that I'm teetering on the brink of calling for the freshmen.
Granted, the number of QBs in number of years argument isn't really an issue at this point. It was certainly something the coaches were thinking about over the summer.
But there's no reason to burn redshirts right now. We will have Ford and Durkin through 2018.
I'm sure there were discussions like this during Tyrod's freshman year, and maybe we would have been better off taking the hits during 2007, and having Tyrod around in 2011.
So we open up competitin next offseason when the shirt thing isnt an issue. Great.
So what are we doing now? Why not give leal a shot now if theres going to be an open comp anyway next year? Other than the fact that a lot of people really seem to hate the poor kid for some reason i dont quite understand..
I think we've all been going in circles here.
So, to sum it up, you just don't like Brewer.
I dont dislike him, hes a middle of the pack ACC coastal QB. Thats fine, i guess, were a middle of the pack ACC coastal team. We all accept that and are kind of hoping we win more than we lose from here out and make a bowl? Woo hoo?
And what makes you think starting Leal will change that?
I dont know if it will or not.
Im suggesting that were not losing much to see if starting him will change it or not. I gather thats a really, really disturbing proposition for some people. I just cant for the life of me figure out why.
What? I or no one else said that it the thought of him starting was "disturbing." All we said was that he likely just isn't as good as Brewer and has been given the shot to prove that he was the best option and lost. I'm not sure starting Leal will solve anything, or at worst beg more questions.
Well have to disagree on the first statement. People seem to flip the heck out with the mere suggestion that leal get a shot this season to see whats up. Thats my only thing, weve seen what brewer can do in half a season. Its...fine, I dunno what you want to call it, it has its ups and downs.
So lets see what leal can do on the field in a game starting after a week of first team reps. I dont see the harm in that. I just want to use my own eyes to evaluate, to judge for myself. He coukd indeed be much worse, who knows? If he is, I imagine well be able to tell very quickly and that will answer that question.
The difference between me and, it seeems, everyone, is that i dont see the harm in the exercise of finding out. I dont presume to know either way, i only suggest we find out. If that puts me in the minority so be it, my actual influence over the outcome remains unchanged.
It's the ACC Coastal, the entire pack is the middle.
Leal won't be here next year, couldn't win the job last year, didn't impress in the games he's played in during his career.
What's the point?
Hes put in ~4 years, i dont see the harm in giving him a shot to see whats up.
Theres going to be a wide open QB competition anyway next year, so who cares?
Thats my only point.
He got his shot. And was outperformed. That's my point.
I understand your point and disagree to the extent of the legitimacy of the "shot" he got. Its fine we disagree, IIWII.
He was the starting QB in the spring. He lost to a guy who came in August. Do you think the coaches just hate him and decided he wouldn't start even though he had the most experience by far?
As I see it Brewer (the passing game) is better in shotgun and also in the hurry up, , the running game is better with him under center (outside a couple fumbled snaps) ... if we are committed to the running game then Brewer should be under center, if we are committing to passing 45-50 times a game we might as well put him in shotgun and go hurry up and live with it... VT seemed like a team that didn't know what it wanted to do on offense for an entire half (or more) Thursday
Offensive identity=smoke and mirrors
Smoke and mirrors-
01: Something/Someone that deceives or distorts the truth.
02: Something/Someone that distorts or blurs facts ,figures, etc., like a magic or conjuring work; artful deception; tricky inventiveness.