So I know most of you will say, do we need ANOTHER basketball thread after the UNC win? But, this question came to mind after seeing Buzz's interview after the UNC game. Many fans on Twitter bombarded Buzz with claims that "he can't coach anymore." You can see that it hit him pretty hard, evident by the emotional reaction that he had during the interview.
https://youtu.be/L4XX1vJQhBM?t=6m49s
You can also see the passion that bubbled over the top after the win, evident by the locker room "mosh pit" that took place after the game. This game was HUGE for him as a coach. Saying all of that, I started looking at some teams, that in recent years have made the tournament, yet currently are experiencing underwhelming seasons:
Team, Conference record/Overall record
Syracuse 2-4/13-6
Baylor 2-6/12-8
Wisonsin 3-5/10-11
Maryland 4-5/15-7
Iowa 2-7/11-11
Oregon 3-4/13-7
Vanderbilt 2-6/7-13
Now I know ALL of these teams aren't "blue-blood" programs, but this does speak to the fact that every team has the potential for a "down season." Whether these seasons occur because new talent must learn the system, a downturn in recruiting for one cycle, or a large group of seniors who graduate; every team goes through it.
And my question for the forum is, do we have unrealistic expectations on Buzz? I know he was hired because of his success at Marquette, and his ability to take them year after year to the Sweet 16; but if a program like Syracuse, Wisconsin, Maryland, etc can endure through rough seasons, as a fan base, why can't we still show support without calling for the coach's head? Is it because we haven't had any consistency with winning, so our fuse for failure is shorter? Is it because we got a taste of what it's like to be a good team, and we want it to be like VT Football? (10 win season stretches) As a fan base, should we reassess our expectations? Does Buzz deserve more time than some of us are giving him?
I know this topic has been discussed in one way or another in other threads. It isn't my intent to beat a dead horse, and I hope that this conversation doesn't derail into personal attacks on individuals. I just wonder if a rational minded conversation can help us, as a fan base. I hope that a good discussion can hopefully help prepare us for the rest of the season regardless of the outcome, and can hopefully counter some of the Twitter-tards who shout at Buzz from behind the walls of their mobile devices.
Comments
My question is what is the reason anyone should re-assess Buzz? Because we lost four games in the past month? month? Because we're 3-4 instead of 4-3 as we'd like to be? This is all short-term shit that if we finished .500 in-conference at the end of the year would be forgotten. Take a look at the big picture, not the past 30 days.
Exactly! I feel like after last year, we started to see ourselves as a "basketball school as well." The temptation of being able to pay attention to TWO major sports I think has become an intoxicating possibility for us as a fan base. Before last year we could pay attention to VT sports from August to January, now we can pay attention to VT sports from August to March. I think most of us want that to continue, but don't want to suffer through the growing pains to get there consistently. Unfortunately Buzz is bearing the brunt of that desire from some of the fan base.
I would love to see us return to form in baseball as well. Watching us host the regionals a few years ago was lowkey one of my favorite Hokie sports experiences.
I want it all, and I want it now!! /s
Buzz is a really good coach we're lucky to have. Yes, I know, we pay for the privilege, but the product has been entertaining and hopefully will continue to improve over the years. We all think we deserve what we want, but maybe we have to let the program develop into what we want instead of leaping to the head of the line.
Keep in mind, I started this thread so that people could talk me back from the ledge too. During games like the Kentucky game, I fought with the same feelings of we deserve this W, we deserve to be talked about on a national stage. So your "I want it all, and I want it now" approach at times this season has been a reality for me more than sarcasm. A couple of days of rational sleep and stepping back from the ledge has helped me think more balanced & RATIONAL.
Kentucky is a beatable team this year and we have the talent to beat them, I don't think it's crazy to be disappointed in that loss.
Whoa, we shouldn't be throwing that crazy word around all willy nilly like that
I'm not big into the twitter, but are "fans" really that bad to him? I feel like he gets nothing but love on facebook. He legitimately brightens my day. I wish I could have him on speed dial for quick chats before a big pitch at work or when life has got me a little down. He could write a Chicken Soup for the Hokie Soul book and I'd buy a copy for everyone I know.
I don't see it much on twitter, but these degenerates might be direct messaging him. Only Buzz would be able to see it.
If the question is "are people really being assholes on twitter?" Then the answer is Yes 100% of the time.
When you said "quick chats before a big pitch," I immediately thought about episodes of The Office when Dwight would listen to Heavy Metal before going into a meeting to sell paper products.
And I'm not on Twitter so I wouldn't know how bad it gets, but if it moves a man like Buzz to tears, I can only imagine. The way the team supported him was probably the most heartwarming moments I think I've witnessed in sports in some time. I love this team, W's or L's, I love them because they support their coach so much. You can't help but get behind a team like that. That video will fuel me to support this team for the rest of the season and beyond.
Now that we're in year four of the Buzz Williams tenure, I expect us to make the tournament 3 out of every 4 years, and make a run into the second week once every 4-5 years. I think those are lofty, but not unreasonable goals. I think Buzz is on target to hit those goals.
EDIT: To be clear, I am in no way, shape or form advocating for Buzz's firing any time soon. By showing improvement year over year and making the tournament a season earlier than expected, he raised our team/program's ceiling. I think he deserves at least 3 more seasons before he's even put on the hot seat. That said, I stand by the lofty program goals I listed above, and I think Buzz can definitely make achieve those one day.
I agree with you, those are lofty goals for sure. I don't think we have the foundation completed to meet those goals yet in my opinion. I think this is the first year where we have a full compliment of Buzz's guys, and I think that is evident by the lack of an alpha dog. 5 is slowly trying to take on that role, but I'm not sure if he's there just yet. I personally feel like we're 2 years away, and honestly there are days when I'm not sure if Buzz will stay around that long.
I'm not sure that is realistic if we want VT to become a perennial top 25 football program. Very few P5 schools have the resources to support top 25 football and basketball programs every year - all of which have huge budgets (Teas, Ohio State, Michigan, etc.).
With the depth of the ACC bball conference, I think it will be tough to get in the tourney 3/4 years. The only "football" schools that has been able to do that consistently is FSU (huge athletic budget), Louisville (who's fball is barely top 25) and Notre Dame.
It's a little catch 22 though. You say we don't have the resources to support top programs. I say we don't have the resources because we aren't top programs. Sustained success will continue to drive support and growth.
I'm not suggesting that we will/should/can turn into a perennial top 25 basketball program, but a top 40ish is reasonable. I think WVU has a top 25 basketball program and top 40 football program in most years. Clemson is doing it this year, Iowa and Miami are typically competitive in both sports. I could even make arguments for San Diego State, Memphis and Temple in some years.
Agree it can be done in cycles but I was referring to 10+ year run of sustaining 2 elite programs. Clemson is surprising everyone this year in bball, so more of an exception than program builder.
I assumed Tech needed to be a top 25-30 program to ensure an at large every year (or 3 out of 4).
I think that basketball school vs. football school argument is getting old. Why not both, with the success of one helping bring additional resources to the school that can eventually funnel down to the other. Plenty of schools are competitive in both. I'm sure Alabama's recent success in football is helping fuel the basketball program, and Duke's success in basketball has helped the football program.
I think Buzz is doing a fantastic job. I think the winning may have breeded some unrealistic expectations, but I think that's typical of most fanbases. However, there's no need to trash the coach when the team loses a few games, and I'm sure Buzz has a thick enough skin to understand that the few knuckleheads that are calling for his head are not representative of the fanbase as a whole.
My only criticism of Buzz's coaching has been related to making adjustments in the offense when opposing teams take away the 3-ball, which early on was the staple of our offense. Coaching and personnel adjustments have a lot to do with the outcome of games, and it seems like ever since the 2nd half of the Kentucky game, teams have found the key to slowing down our offensive production, and we really have yet to find a way to recapture the success our offense had in the early going. Hopefully, we're starting to come out of that funk, and find other ways to win games besides relying too much on the 3-ball.
Hell, we can't make the tournament more than once a decade and now the expectation is to make it 3 out of every 4 years? Lol
We've never had a coach of Buzzs caliber. And we definitely shouldn't expect to have a coach of Buzzs caliber, but since we fortunately do, setting higher goals isn't unreasonable.
Yeah, this was really my point. We have a top coach and an athletic department that supports him. Maybe we're not making the tourney 3/4 years yet but if Buzz sticks around (who knows if he does) and continues to coach and steadily improve recruiting, we have the ability to finish in the top half of the ACC more often than not, and that (depending on our OCC) should put us in the conversation for the big dance.
Maybe 3/4 years is a bit aggressive, but but we should be in the conversation annually, and I expected Buzz's teams to have much better luck with the committee than Seth's did.
Short answer: no. I think what's drove me crazy the most isn't that we're not good enough, but rather that we are good enough. We have a very good team when we want to be. We've beat ourselves with careless turnovers and lazy defensive efforts - both things that {mostly} come down to effort. I'm not saying we should be a one or two loss team, but I don't think it's unreasonable for fans to expect to have seen a sharper, more crisp team this year up to this point in the season. Let me get this out of the way: I'm not pointing fingers at Buzz, but this lack of discipline with the ball and poor defensive efforts have been a glaring trend this season. This is why I don't subscribe to the notion that last year was more or less a fairytale with making the tournament and now we're back down to earth to where we should be as a program. If they play like they did defensively against UNC and protect the ball, we'll come back from South Bend late Saturday night with a win and if we continue to play that way, we'll win again. We can do it; I believe in Buzz and the team.
I agree, careless turnovers and defensive miscues (I'm looking at you 3 point cloesouts) has really hampered us this season. However, is that a byproduct of a lack of effort, or a byproduct of a lack of chemistry? Think about it, our starting 5 is playing together for the first time. KB wasn't there all last season, Clarke was down half of last season, NAW is new, 5 was there all last season, but as mentioned didn't play with anyone but Med. Not to mention Bede and Pig are pretty new to the effort too as far as regular playing time goes. It's my hope that the UNC was the first time the chemistry "clicked" for each player, we'll find out if that's the case on Saturday.
Excellent counterpoint / food for thought. Let's hope your last sentence is all it was!
I'm copying and pasting some from my comment in the Progress/Development thread but this is Buzz's fourth year, he's been given facility and venue upgrades and an expanded budget for assistants and he's pulling in impressive recruiting classes. At this point, he has a roster full of his guys (OKGs) and the excuses regarding where this program was prior to him taking over are beginning to be less and less valid.
I don't think criticizing Buzz is unfair: before the UNC game this team seemed to be in a tailspin and I would have predicted a ~.500 regular season and no shot at the NCAA tourney. Does one game against UNC change that? Did the team hit a turning point or is UNC just that inconsistent? Who knows.
No reasonable person should be suggesting that he be fired but Buzz also shouldn't be considered beyond reproach.
I agree, I don't think Buzz is above reproach by any means. Some of the miscues have to come down to coaching. The entire team has to take responsibility including the coaches. I guess what I'm saying is, is the fan base expectations unrealistic? I mean for us to expect another tournament run, after getting bounced in the first round last year, I feel is a little unrealistic. Especially with two alpha seniors leaving, and two underclassmen in the starting lineup. Not to say underclassmen can't perform, but we aren't talking about top 10 recruits either that are underclassmen. I always felt like this year we'd be a borderline bubble team, if just because of ceilings that each of these players have, but the lack of playing time together.
I don't have a great read on what the expectations of the fans are, and my only real finger on the pulse if you will is through Twitter, TKP, and my friends who went to Tech.
Not a lot of Buzz (heh) around VT basketball overall to be honest. Basketball threads on TKP don't generate a ton of interest, no one engages me about the plight of the VT basketball team during the season the way they do during football etc. Sooo my answer is a big 'ol shrug.
*I* don't personally expect a tourney run every year but had the season continued the way it was pre-UNC I would have called this season a disappointment.
The only reason anyone would have high expectations about our hoops is because of Buzz. Did he over achieve a little last year? I think so. Did he have huge leaps every year until this one? Again, yes. Is that type on increase sustainable? No. Compare where we are now to where we were under the last several coaches, and its hard to claim Buzz has not done as well as anyone in long time. Based on his record at Marquette, it seems reasonable to think we will be even better in the future. Is it reasonable to expect the team to never take a step back or rebuild? No. We lost two team leaders from last year, and have a little tougher (in my opinion) ACC schedule. Based on current talent, I expect us to be competitive in the ACC. We should beat the bottom teams at home, and sometimes on the road. We should beat most middle of the pack teams at home, but lose most on the road. Then we need to beat a good team or two at home. Unfortunately that puts us on the bubble, but that is where I expect us to be for a few more years. I will think it is unrealistic to expect more than that until someone can show me several teams that have got from worst in the conference to a perennial sweet 16 team in a top conference in under a decade.
I'd be curious to know if he recruited better at Marquette at this point in the process.
Differences are night & day between the two.
He inherited a very good Marquette program from Tom Crean. The three years prior to Buzz taking over their program, they won at least 20 games & made the tourney every year. Marquette already had cache as a program and Buzz could lean on that.
He basically had to start from scratch at VT. I'm not sure it's even fair to compare the two situations, but it shows how good of a coach Buzz is that he could take an ACC cellar-dweller to respectability in Year 2 and the tourney in Year 3 that lead to expectations of better things in Year 4.
I agree with the above, that it's tough to compare, but I was curious too
Marquette Recruiting Class Ranks, per 247 composite:
2008: #252 (This class had a little 2* Guard named Jimmy Butler in it though...)
2009: #12 (6 total commits, 3 top 100, 2 top 30 JUCO guys, and one 3 star)
2010: #6
2011: #38
2012: #59 (1 player, from Norfolk, interestingly enough)
2013: #7
Edit: He's had 3 Top 25 classes since coming to VT, so I'd say he's on par/slightly lower than he was there.
Sorry for all the edits, needed to correct 2010. Also, interesting to note, looks like he had 1 commit over 6'9 the entire time he was there yet he made the tournament 5 of 6 years.
Great info! Thanks for that work, yeah I'd say he's underperforming at the moment, but still on an upward trajectory, I think this upcoming class is critical. Man J. Butler was a 2 *, smh, talmbout finding a diamond in the rough...
Yeah, I like the limited HS tape of Nolley, so I'm excited about this upcoming class, and I'm hopeful that he'll improve even more with the 2019 class since it's a blank slate now.
It's even crazier to think that Butler was actually an unranked recruit coming out of high school. It took a year in JUCO to earn the two that he got. Dude's got a hell of a story if you haven't heard about it. His mom kicked him out of the house at 13 saying "I don't like the look of you. You gotta go." He's certainly worked his ass off and earned every bit of recognition/success he's achieved
I think pre-season we definitely had unrealistic expectations, significantly discounting the losses from Allen and LeDay. Still not sure anyone has replaced their contributions this year.
Also was wondering if Williams has outperformed Greenberg yet - Seth built bubble teams and made the tourney a few times but never got over the hump of being an automatic entry each year. Has Buzz done any better by 4 years?
In the first three years, Buzz showed noticeable and incremental improvement each year. I wasn't around for the beginning of the Greenburg era, but I never really saw improvement between 2008 and when he was fired. There were no changes or creativity in his game plan, and finally - his teams struggled to close out games and seasons.
Buzz has changed expectations in just three years, which shows just how much his teams have improved. If Buzz stays here 4 more years, and never makes the tourney again, then maybe we just accept that either Buzz is just as good a coach as Greenburg, or VT is a really tough place to win. However, I do expect Buzz to be more successful than Seth when it's all said and done.
I think in college football and basketball, it takes a coach who can make in game adjustments and let their coaching philosophy evolve over the years to be consistently top 25 program.
It is difficult to predict if a coach will be able to do that when they are hired off of a successful run of 3-5 years. Look at Alabama football pre Saban or ND football post Holtz. Lots of coaches have had 3-5 top 25 years during their career, very few put out a top 25 team for a vast majority of their career.
Ate the expectations too high? From some people, absolutely. Sometimes you just have to know your place, and VT isn't a school with the basketball pedigree to put a coach of the calibre of Buzz Williams on the hot seat. For better or worse, we are joined at the hip with him until he wants out.
I do not agree with the "know your place" sentiment in regards to future goals. An honest assessment of current potential is always important to evaluate if short term goals are being met and if progress is being made toward those future goals (& steps backwards do not eliminate the potential to meet future goals). If no one ever aspired for more out of VT football it could still be a team without a conference who's best games were against VMI.
I do think that it is important to acknowledge that VT basketball competes against great college players and coaches in the ACC.
Unless VT is going to out talent a team, it will have to out coach them. This normally means having a veteran team who has learned the intricacies of the coaching philosophy and can excel as a singular unit.
This becomes increasingly difficult to do when you need to outcoach M. Krzyzewski, R. Williams, M Brey, J. Boeheim etc. when you are at a talent deficit.
It is not a knock on Buzz if that is not something he can do on a consistent basis. To become a top quarter of the ACC type program, VT would have to knock one of those programs out of that position. UVA has been able to do that through coaching philosophy. Other teams like NCST, GT, Wake have been able to make short term runs as top level ACC teams when they had top players (J. Hodges @ NCST, J. Jack @ GT, C. Paul @ Wake etc) but did not have the consistency in talent level to remain.
A consistent mid level ACC program with equal stints in the top 1/4 as at the bottom 1/4 would be a good next step for VT basketball. I hope we can get there; I think we can get there.
First I want to take a moment to address some of the teams you selected and why they are experiencing changes. I also would expect if you went to the fan forums of many of those programs you would see similar "the sky is falling" discussions.
Syracuse - they are under NCAA sanctions which means they only have 10 scholarships to work with until 2019 vice the 13 other schools have. They also are only allowed two off campus recruiters compared to four up until this year so its not surprising that with that and the up in the air status of Jim Boeheim these days they are struggling to recruit.
Baylor - this one is kind of a head scratcher. The head coach has been there since 2003 and they haven't had much turnover roster wise and have a senior laden squad but they just haven't been able to piece it together.
Wisconsin - new head coach has not proven able to continue recruiting or winning the way his predecessor Bo Ryan did. They are also dealing with injuries to three major components of their roster.
Maryland - Talk about the team with bad luck. They have lost three conference games in the last possession one way or another. They also lost star Justin Jackson and forward Ivan Bender to season ending injuries which has extremely changed their roster. UMD is 3-5 in games decided by six points.
Iowa - many fans are asking for McCaffery's head on a platter. He only has a 57% winning percentage since taking over in 2011. Most fans point to coaching because he has done a stellar job recruiting but one area many fans point to is his use of personnel. When most of the Big Ten has gone to lineups similar to what Buzz uses, McCaffery is running out a group of two or three bigs at a time and teams are just racing by them. They also seem to have an alpha dog struggle this year after Peter Jok, who scored 19.9 PPG last year left for the NBA.
Oregon - The Ducks are dealing with major roster transition, considering Dillon Brooks, Jordan Bell and Tyler Dorsey leave for the NBA, and Casey Benson, Chris Boucher, Dylan Ennis, Kavell Bigby-Williams and Charlie Noebel also left either by graduation or transfer. That left them with one returning starter and only five returning overall. KenPom tracks a stat called continuity percentage and Oregon is 342nd out of 351 teams.
Vanderbilt - Vandy is struggling under relatively new head coach Bryce Drew who is in his second season with the Commodores, and while they have struggled on the court, the coach has a potentially top five class coming in to the program next year. They have three top 50 players coming in from the class of 2018, and also add Matt Ryan who transferred from Notre Dame and a big down low. Drew seems to be challenged this season with utilizing his predecessor OKGs to play Drew style of basketball and it hasn't been working.
Ok now on to the Hokies....I am going to address what I think "fans" are most upset about if they are pointing the finger at Buzz for the state of the program.
1) Three Point Defense - the Hokies are allowing ACC opponents to shoot 42.4% from outside. that is 15th worst in the ACC out of 15 teams and they are allowing the 9th most attempts. On the season, Tech has allowed opponents to shoot 34% which is 142nd in the country. This unfortunately has been a trend year on year under Buzz which eventually does have to come down to coaching, especially when you consider how many games it has been a major factor in. The Hokies finished last season 14th against ACC opponents in this category at 40.8%, allowing the 8th most attempts.
2) Turnovers - the Hokies are currently 8th in the ACC in turnovers but surprisingly have created four more turnovers in ACC play than they have given away, which has them 9th in creating turnovers. Last season they finished 12th in turning it over and 13th in creating.
3) Rebounding - while we have seen some improvement of late, the Hokies are 12th in rebounding in the ACC and allow the 8th most rebounds. Last season they were 15th in getting and 8th in allowing. Its well known that Buzz emphasizes getting back to prevent transition baskets over working for rebounds on the offensive end. I do think there is not enough focus on the importance of rebounding by the coaching staff or we should see better results.
4) Setting early expectations - The Hokies were high flying out of the gate, scoring essentially at will. So much so that even now, the Hokies are scoring 6 more points per game than they did last year and are allowing 2 fewer PPG than last season. We all now are aware that the level of competition played a major factor considering the Hokies are averaging 74.3 PPG in ACC play while allowing 77.4, compared to their season numbers of 85.4 versus 72.8 allowed. Fans got used to this team running in transition, showing great energy and hitting perimeter shots. All of those things greatly slowed down after the second half of the Kentucky game. As it is, the Hokies are shooting 33% from outside in conference play compared to 40% on the season.
5) Overall statistics that don't look good - Sports Reference for College Basketball tracks 22 statistics by ranking for both offensive and defensive performance. Of those 22 stats on offense in the ACC, the Hokies are 8th or worse in 14 of those. On defense the number in the ACC is 15 of those stats are 8th or worse. Overall on the season, the Hokies are over 100th in 10 of 22 categories. On defense it is 19 of 22 categories over 100th. Over 200th on defense is 11 of those categories. While those kind of numbers can be skewed many different ways, they still don't point to high expectations in terms of results.
6) Coach Energy - Another factor this season has been the physical change in Buzz. Between the hair on his head and face, the more tailored, starched outfits and demeanor, the lack of energy on the sidelines and even his selection of shoes. In the UNC game that went out the window. You had sneakers, frank beamer honoring shirt and the facial expressions/bodily contortions were against UNC what had been the norm for years. It was evident to almost anyone watching that Buzz was trying to make a change before Monday night in that regard but it wasn't working. I do believe that his players feed off that energy in terms of confidence on the court as well as ability to bounce back. Hopefully we see more of that Buzz and more results like Monday going forward.
7) Last, the remaining schedule. and this is likely why before Monday many "fans" were so negative, if you look at what is left, and take out the UNC win, you have four ranked opponents in UVA and Clemson once, with Duke twice, you also had Miami twice, Notre Dame and Louisville a second time which were all ranked at points this season, then the remainder is Georgia Tech, NC State and Boston College two out of three of which are on the road. Its hard to find three or four wins in that schedule with how the Hokies were playing prior to Monday. Its still hard to find three or four wins in that schedule now. I would hope that the Hokies could split with Miami, beat NC State at home, and steal one on the road between the GT and BC game, more likely the GT game with how much improved BC has been this season. That is still only three wins and even Buzz has said that he expects teams will need to be a +1 in ACC play to make the tournament this year. That means that the Hokies would need to find four more wins in that murder's row of a schedule beyond the additional three I would hope to get. It probably means needing to beat Louisville at home, beat Clemson at home, and steal one from Duke at a minimum. That would get them to 9-9 with a chance to pick up a win or two in the ACC tourney.
Mr. Peterson, I stand corrected, those are some great points about those programs. I guess what I'm getting at is they deserve to ask for the coaches head because of their consistency in making the tournament. I don't think as a program we have reason to ask for the coach's head just yet. I honestly think we are a couple of sweet 16's away from calling for Buzz's head. But you are totally right, I went by records and not by the internals of each program.
Really wasn't trying to correct you, just wanted to make sure that we were comparing programs in the same context. I am not even close to asking for Buzz' head in any regards and those that are might need to see a few specialists, because this program is night and day different than when Buzz arrived. My only concern this season was his outward passion and some of the deficiencies that seem to be holding consistent over more than a season. Even if Buzz were to reach a few Sweet 16's and then go on a five year drought, I don't think our program is in position to move him along. Until the Hokie Club becomes a stronger organization and can provide consistent Top 10 support of both football and basketball, we likely will struggle to find ourselves in the conversation for top coaching candidates.
To your last point, I think it was well debated that when Buzz came here, his contract was extremely one sided. It had to be considering most people thought he was crazy to come here in the first place. As Alum said above, I think we're tied to Buzz until he decides otherwise or 2023 (contract ends). I for one, am not the least bit upset by that and hope he stays as long as possible. I know that what happens on the court is most important to fan sentiment, but Buzz does so much for the community and the kids in the program I would really hate to see him go. Just a great guy that has his priorities straight in my opinion.
Didn't take any offense to your response at all. Good information to have, to help the overall discussion. Like I said earlier, I hoped that this would set expectations for the rest of the season, and your post contributed to that.
I agree with a vast majority if your sentiment.
I will give Buzz the benefit of the doubt on the passion front. It is my understanding that he has viewed this as a team with the required leadership to get their passion & accountability from the players.
The players may have needed Buzz's energy a little more in some games and he appears to have adjusted accordingly. I appreciate that Buzz tries to be the coach each team as their own entity.
Great summary. To expound on the schedule point, those who paid attention knew it was going to be a difficult stretch this year.
The good news is that I believe the schedule may have gotten a little easier due to injuries and other teams underperforming (much like us). Clemson losing their best player in Donte Grantham for the year is a big blow, and Notre Dame will be without their best player in Bonzie Colson when we play them. Miami also looks beatable.
So while it's still going to be a struggle, I think there are more openings to get wins in the schedule than it may have seemed even a couple weeks ago.
Fuck Matt Ryan.
I expected the team to take a step forward this year. We lost 2 senior leaders in Allen & LeDay but we have a lot of veterans returning on this team, and we replaced Allen and LeDay with arguably more, but at the least equally, talented players in NAW & Blackshear. Jackson and Bede haven't seen much action and Horne hasn't either, despite looking much more effective than Sy did last year as a FR.
For whatever reason the team has not gelled together to their potential until the UNC game. Our top6 lineup of Robinson, Allen, Bibbs, Hill, Outlaw and LeDay was killer down the stretch last season. This year that 6 man rotation seems like it should be Robinson, NAW, Bibbs, Hill, Clarke, and Blackshear. But Blackshear gets in foul trouble and we bring in Wilson as the 6th man which seems to derail the offense, which derails the defense. I'd much rather see one of the younger PGs in the game since they're actual threats to drive & dish, and even score, on offense and a lot more energetic on D.
2017-18 vs 2016-17
G:
- Allen
+NAW (FR) // Wilson, Jackson (rFR), Bede (FR)
PF:
- LeDay, Sy
+Blackshear // Horne (FR)
SF:
- Outlaw
+Clarke
I guess the next question is, what are our expectations? I think those vary across the spectrum of fans at Tech.
I personally think VT should make the tourney 3 out of 5 years, building to 4 out of 5. VCU comes to mind as an example that Tech should be able to emulate. How are they in the tournament every year? What's their budget? Attractiveness to recruits? Coaching pedigrees? Coaches salaries? Tech should also have the opportunity for more impressive wins based on conference (along with the chance to accumulate more losses). But I look at a school in the same state as the blueprint for why VT can be successful at a level that I think would satisfy most if not all of our fan base.
For me a tourney 3 out of every 5 years is totally realistic. But at the same time I don't think we're where we need to be yet with depth to meet this goal. For instance, there is a significant drop off from KJ to PJ. The same goes for the dropoff from 5 to Pig/Bede. Keep in mind though I think the development of Pig/Bede could lead to the depth we need. I think Landers coming in next year could lead to the depth we'll need for Clarke (at least for his senior season). But I feel like there are too many minutes logged by those starters that HAVE to be on the court in order for us to succeed. Even Buzz has spoken to the decrease in productivity when 5 isn't on the floor. Honestly that's a recipe for disaster come tourney time, the starters' legs will be noodles come ACC and NCAA tourney time.
I think we can meet high expectations like 3 out of every 5 years once we are 1.5-2 deep at every position (1/2 being a serviceable player that can play D and not look lost on the floor). It would be nice to be able to throw a B team out there that can sustain the score or maybe even provide a good run, that can free up some rest time for our starters. I know we'll never be a Duke or Kentucky type depth, but last year is a perfect example where we were able to have Seth and Leday come off the bench after the first TV timeout, because we had the depth to support that strategy. Imagine if we had Sy available to start the game, thus allowing him to absorb a couple of the ticky tack fouls that KB is getting at the beginning of each game (see FSU game). That's why I think we are one or two recruiting classes away from being a 3 out of 5 type team.
Expectations too high? Absolutely yes
This season is right where we were under greenberg (bubble) and Buzz is an amazing person, unlike with seth. The ceiling is much higher with buzz as coach so anyone calling for Williams to be released is out of their mind
Since Seth seems to come up frequently in many threads, I just wanted to take this opportunity to say my opinion of him is changing slightly. I still don't think he is a great coach; and definitely not as good as Buzz. However, I think we might have been a little too quick to judge him when he was fired. It is probably true that he was hard to work with; but part of that may have been because he actually wanted to grow the program. And he was working for an AD who would not give him either the salary or resources he thought he needed to build a top 25(or maybe even top 50) program at VT. I have worked for bosses who were not supportive and sometimes adversarial. It's not fun; and it really gives you a bad attitude. It's taken me some time to come around to the idea that Seth may not have been all of the problem; but I think I am ready to have a more favorable opinion of him.
This is random, but I just remembered this (I was going to comment on it the other day and forgot, but you jogged my memory): Did anyone else hear either Bilas or McDonough say during the UNC game that Greenberg always says that Cassell Coliseum is "The House that Greenberg Built"?
Whenever I hear that, its in reference to the practice facility, which would be a completely factual statement.
Seth was a big driver for that facility (and a beautiful one at that), but during the commentary, they made it clear it was in reference to Cassell Coliseum.
I thought that was pretty clearly a tongue-in-cheek comment tbh
EDIT: the original one that is. About it being the house that Greenburg built
I like what Greenburg did to build our program back (and now WIlliams is doing that again), but that statement from Bilas deserves a couple Pinocchio's. Cassell was one of the toughest places in the nation to play back in Moir's era as well. It has become that again under Greenburg and Williams. History is typically remembered only over the last decade or so for many things, - Bilas statement is one of those times.
I loved that they called it "one of the great old barns in college basketball" and mentioned how loud it can get with the steepness of the stands and the fans being on top of you. Nice nod by them.
Whenever I hear people say they want to get rid of Cassell, it makes me sad.
Back when I was working as an usher, I was asked to form the ring on the court protecting the players (this was the NC State game a few years ago if memory serves). We made our way down onto the court beneath the HOKIES wall with about 8 minutes remaining in what ended up being a close game. Now mind you, Cassell was only about half full, as the program was still rebounding. But lemme tell you something. It was LOUD. It definitely gives the feel that everyone is on top of you, and between that and the darkness of it, it's intimidating. I can only imagine what it must be like with a full crowd going nuts.
Yeah sure, let's update it to make it a little more modern and convenient. But completely destroy Cassell?! Never. It's got that Blue Collar mentality about it that makes VT what it is.
I must agree with you. There are some crummy seats up high in the corners, for sure, and there are newer and sexier arenas around, but for a full house conference game, Cassell is a really nice venue to have. My memories there go back 50 years, so there's that, but I think for where we are and are likely to be, Cassell is a venerable home. Update, upgrade, modernize, yes, but until some mega donor shows up and offers the moon, it's not like we're playing in a gym.
Those seats are the best when when you're battling a hangover and just want to sit back and enjoy the game. The only bad seats in Cassell are the ones RIGHT next to the band... Not a slight at the band, it's just really annoying to be RIGHT next to them.
I had seats one year that were behind the scoreboard. Made for tough viewing and I called in a favor and got them switched. They were bad seats, at the time.
Where was the scoreboard positioned back then in order for there to be seats behind it? Edit:Not trying to be Mr Take-Things-Too-Literally, I just figured it's always been up on the wall
The shot clock maybe?
Remember, back then somebody had to sit behind the scoreboard. How else could you update it?
Yeah, it would not have been the scoreboard, that was a brain fart, for sure. I just remember something was in our line of vision and getting new seats so we could see. Best of my recollection would put this in the early 90s and I probably couldn't get more specific, to be honest. This was on the end where the team came in, in the middle, and up a ways. I'll ask my wife if she remembers better, but I can't for the life of me remember what it was.
if I could warrant a guess you were probably behind the backboard by your description which would make it really hard to watch at least one end of the action with how Cassell is set up
'Bout had to be, huh? Wife thinks so too, and mentioned the shot clock. It is a wonder how much one can forget in 25 years or so.
I've been someone who has called for it to be bulldozed. The bathrooms are severely outdated, but then again I'm only in there for a max of two minutes.
I guess my biggest peeve is I would love for the stands to be extended to the floor behind the baskets. I think it looks weird that they are 8 feet up. There's gotta be some way to put bleachers or something in there and make it feel like the fans are truly on top of the court.
My other thought for bulldozing Cassell and building a modern arena is it would likely help with recruiting and bringing more money to VT/Blacksburg for being able to hold other events, like concerts. I'm sure UVA sells JPJ hard to recruits and they do a lot of concerts there that have to bring in revenue. Hell, Jimmy Buffett is playing at JPJ in March.
I do love Cassel and have had some great times there and would be sad to see it go if/when it ever happens
JPJ is an outstanding venue, indeed. If we could come up with something similar and use it for concerts and such, I'd be all for it. Somebody needs to win the lottery or something. UVA doesn't lack for deep pockets, that's for sure.
Buzz is one of the ten best coaches in the NCAA. We are extremely lucky to have him. I predict Elite 8 in the next five years.
I think next year is where we should have been this year. We get some good talent coming in with Nolley and Kabongo, along with getting Sy back and playing. We're only losing Bibbs as long as Outlaw gets his waiver for a 6th year approved (not sure if it has or not), and we will have quite the squad. Apparently Nolley has been lighting it up for his school so I'm not worried about losing Bibbs as a scorer at present.
I just want to see Robinson/Hill/Clarke/anyone come forward in a role like Allen/LeDay had last year. If we had those leaders this year, I think we're in a better spot because they were the alpha dogs on that team and the rest fed off that. This year we sorta rode on how well we were shooting until about the UNC game; not bad, but once we started slumping, we struggled in nearly every aspect of the game. The UNC game seemed like an overall change in how we perceived games since we did much more than just shoot well.
Talking with my stepdad about Buzz's hiring a couple years back sorta had me seeing us being here or a bit better at this point in time since it takes time to get your guys in and get your system implemented, but he was a year ahead for 2 years so seems fine that we are underachieving to this point. I give Buzz the benefit of the doubt that we will close out this season strong, even if the W/L won't show that