So call me the new kid on the block, but how long does it typically take for a coach to turn around a basketball program? I know there are outliers (see Bob Huggins 2007-2010) who typically make an instant impact, but I'm not sure that they had the cards that were dealt to them like they were dealt to Buzz after the JJ fiasco.
I ask this because I'm trying really hard to feel optimistic for the future. I know we landed Nolley (no pun intended), and I know if NAW sticks around we'll be a pretty competitive team (which I don't see him sticking around because the NBA is all about potential talent now). I know Dream will be back on the team, and hopefully Outlaw will be back to form to fill that void left by Hill's lack of confidence at the moment. But I heard someone in another thread say Tony Bennett took a good amount of time to turn the UVA situation around, but I started thinking to myself, he was recruiting at a pretty high level too, and his program is firmly based upon defense, so the players that he recruits fit that system to a T. And defense is huge this time of year (for example see yesterday's performance).
Now I'm not Buzz bashing, I love the coach that he is, more than probably most on this site. I've started full threads about how great of a person he is in my opinion. However, I can't help but wonder, how far are we away from an actual tournament run? I think losing Bibbs is a big blow, as would losing NAW to the draft. We still would have a senior in J Rob, and players like Pig, Bede, and PJ with a year under their belts. Is the team we have for next year enough to get us past the first round? Comparing last season, and this season, just seems like a wash to me (yet again not throwing shade at the team or Buzz). We had two competitive seasons, two underwhelming ACC tournament runs, and a first round exit from the NCAA tourney (regardless of the opponents seeding).
I go back to my question that I've been asking all season though. Who is the alpha? Who is the player who will take the bull by the horns and say we're not losing this game? J Rob tried really hard to be that this year for us, but I don't think it worked out all the time because he already expends so much energy just playing the 1 position. Kerry tried to be that, but he is too much of a finesse player, and hasn't figured out how to use his agility to his advantage in the post, nor has he figured out how to restrain himself from silly defensive help fouls. Who's the Seth Allen, who's the LeDay who says, get on my back I'm taking us to the promised land. Can we really expect a player like Nolley to do that in his first year? A incoming freshman getting adjusted to the changes in pace of play (college versus high school). A player trying to adjust to the rigor of road traveling, and the rigor of the ACC grindhouse schedule, where you play a tough team night in and night out.
I'm not trying to be all doom and gloom, I know we are on an upward trajectory, but I for one refuse to blame that loss last night on a ref's no call. It was a blocking foul, no doubt about it, but as a team, when are we going to take responsibility for completing all the nuances during the game that ensure that the game doesn't come down to a last minute bucket/foul? When are we going to recruit players/teach players to be laterally, more capable at closing out on defense if we're going to predominantly run a zone defense, since man to man rarely works for an undersized team? When are we going to close out better above the arc? When are we going to rebound better, especially on the offensive side for the opposing team? When are we going to stop playing isolation basketball with Kerry in the post on a spin move? When is CC going to learn to control that athleticism when going down the lane? When is Hill going to realize that he is a talented player who deserves to play in the ACC? Aspects like these and others go back to coaching, so as much as I hate to, I lay this at Buzz's feet. Fundamentals will make or break a team. Our biggest Achilles heel this year was turnovers, poor 3 point shooting closeouts, and stagnant offensive second halves this year. Those aspects reared their heads time and time again.
I hope this offseason Buzz takes the approach that no team will shoot their best game against us, because we will have hands in the faces of the opponents, we will rotate better, and we will make every shot tougher for the opponent. I hope he starts offseason camp with defense (Even Buzz admitted that he started emphasizing defense too late this year). I hope we see the importance of the details. I hope an alpha is available next season. I hope Kerry embraces his quick feet and realizes, like LeDay did early on, that no big can stop him off the dribble spin move when it's completed properly. I hope that CC sees that rushing down the lane with reckless abandon without a ounce of care for ball control is fruitless. I hope Pig and Bede work hard as hell during the offseason to step into the shoes of 5 so that he isn't physically taxed all season with the bumps and bruises of going down the lane. I hope Dream and Outlaw become intricate cogs to a successful season. Hope is all we can do as Hokie fans. Hope is what gets us to tune into the next season's worth of games. Hope is what makes Sandman so exhilarating, when those chords kick in we hope in that moment that we're about to run this team out of whatever stadium we're in. I love being a Hokie, I'm heartbroken still this morning, but I will continue to have hope in Buzz, the boys, a future alpha, and in a tournament run that will leave us proud next year. Onto 2018-2019 Hokies basketball. -Go Hokies, thank you 10, and thank you 11!
Onto next season boys and girls:
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Comments
Not sure why this couldn't have fit into the "vent" thread.
That would be a long damn comment, I guess
Maybe because that thread is toxic. This vent thread was actually created with perspective.
I appreciate that Civil Hokie, I don't think Vtkey was trying to throw shade, but it came across as moderating at first glance, so because of it, I didn't want the responses to Vtkey's comments, to derail the thread on how I screwed up posting in the wrong section and in turn stunt good conversation on some of my thoughts.
This site is therapeutic for me after a tough loss like this, so I'm glad the community helped relay responses I wanted to say but couldn't frame into a sentence (my wife even said last night after the loss, I'll plug up my laptop so you can jump on the site). Civil and Diehl came up with good ways to voice my intentions, so I appreciate it gents.
Vtkey don't want to seem like I'm attacking you, I'm not, so that's why I didn't respond in the first place, cause every response I typed out seemed hostile, and that's not my approach on this site. Cheers to all you fellow Hokies.
You're right, I didn't mean to throw any shade.
I just think that in general one "vent" thread might be enough. There are often multiple vent threads, and similar opinions will be found in all of them. I do tend to agree with 2_Hokie_5's opinion more, as I stated in the other thread.
We're all just venting our frustration with the game results, but I agree, they can be expressed positively, especially given the relative success this program has had of late.
Extreme
VettingVentingI also thought HokieMacGruber was much more eloquent in his delivery than 2_Hokie_5.
Is this really what you're taking away from his post?
A lot longer than it took Buzz. I mean, are you insinuating that Buzz hasn't yet turned this ship around? I'm legitimately curious, because we just made back-to-back tournament appearances for the first time since 1985-1986 and the third time ever. We make it next year, and its the most consistent our program has ever been. Ever.
And our first NCAA appearance under Buzz was in Year 3. When Year 1 capped the 2nd straight season we finished DFL in the ACC with only 2 ACC wins. The rise of VT basketball under Buzz is legit and seriously impressive.
If he's getting drafted its probably in the mid to late 2nd round and he'll likely sit on a bench the majority of his career, if not relegated to the NBADL. If he's smart, he'll stick around, let his stock rise higher while developing his game in the ACC, wait to be 'the man' during a NCAA run, and see if he can't get himself in potential NBA lottery range. He has that kind of potential.
JRob. He took his game to the next level this year, and he'll be on all the preseason All-ACC watch lists. He is a seriously good playmaking PG who makes nice dishes and can make some impressive shots. He does his absolute best to try and take the game over, and is our leader by example. As he goes, VT goes.
I don't really have anything else to add to the rest of what you said, because I largely agree. Hopefully we come out with a much better defensive mentality next year to make every game 40 minutes of hell for the opponent when they have the ball. Hopefully we will have the depth that we can allow ourselves to play a little more loose defensively, not worrying that certain positions might foul out.
I hate to bring up Huggins again, but how good was the team he inherited in 07? Cause by his second year he went to the sweet 16. I will admit I didn't do my research, so I'm not sure if this is the best apples to apples comparison, JJ's teams were terrible! But it was the first school that came to mind that is in a major conference, that was taken over by a notable coach, in a region that generally doesn't produce a lot of NBA talent (basically us). I think there is still a lot more left to turn the ship completely around. That's just my opinion. Advancing past the 2nd round would complete the turn around for me, because Seth got us to the second round before the dark period with JJ and all. I think I'm unrealistic, I'm comfortable with saying that for sure.
I'm with you Alum, I think he should stick around, I feel like after last night's lost I'm just taking the worst case scenario approach. After the Edmundi's left this year, I take this approach so that I'm not thoroughly disappointed, especially after Jerod leaving last year.
I agree I think J-Rob is the alpha right now, but I just don't see him as a true alpha. I don't think he's capable of controlling a game consistently. Just my opinion. I feel like he's taken over games this year, but the abuse his small frame takes I think is what limits his ability to consistently lead this team as the alpha dog. Some of those drives to the lane last night you could tell were painful for him to make because of all the moving picks he takes above the arc. Teams pick him because of his stature and because the team knows it will take a toll on his body throughout a game. Maybe we just need more than one alpha. Will think about this more for sure.
If VT's success is not considered a quick turnaround I am not sure what is. VT won two ACC games his first season. Second season we were on the bubble, no real chance of making it, but on the bubble nonetheless. 3rd and 4th season, NCAA tournament. When he took over we had a roster with maybe 1 or 2 ACC talent players.
And this is why I said I very well could be unrealistic. I think this year I simply desired another logical step upward, if that makes sense? Last season and this season, just seemed like a wash to me. I think I'm so thirsty for that tournament run that makes a croot say, "dain, Buzz is doing something over there at VT." He's pulling good croots without a run, so I'm happy for the most part about the recruiting aspect (especially after all this FBI talk). But I just want more, I'm an American, we generally want more, let's be honest. I never stated though that my wants weren't unrealistic though LOL.
I understand wanting the next step which would be a win in the NCAAs, but it's almost illogical to expect that, even more so when we are either a lower seed or an 8/9 matchup. There is a reason it's called March Madness.
Next year I would expect us to do better. I want the goals for the team to be a better seed in the ACC tourney and making it to the following round in the ACC tourney. If we do that then we should be a higher seed in the NCAA and then we maybe could expect a win in the first weekend. As a poster has said a couple times, UVA and Bennett took 5 years to win one NCAA game and to even make it there twice and Bennett is a good coach.
I mean, You could argue that we took a small step forward. We may have won one less game this year, and kept the same ACC record, but in 2017/18 we had three top 10 wins (four top 15). In 2016/17, we had one win over a top 10 team (two top 15 wins).
The program is in the best shape it's been in in at least a decade. The last three games were brutal, but taking a look a the macro, there is still much to be excited about.
I always welcome an effort to keep things in perspective. Good information to know, that certainly does help it all feel like an incremental step in the right direction.
This is a nicely measured take. It's easy to compare a team to itself within the course of a season (ie, UVA, UNC, Duke, Clemson games vs Louisville, Miami, ND, Bama games). The wild variance and remarkably inconsistent and streaky nature of the team is incredibly frustrating. But I'd rather have this than a ho-hum back-middle of ACC season where we pull one upset and every other game is status quo. And I'd much rather have a ho-hum back-middle of the ACC season where we pull one upset and every other game is status quo than have a miserable losing season with two conference wins.
I'll admit that I haven't watched more than half of our team's game's this year, but I don't think the team was 'wildly' different from game to game. I'd be very interested to see some statistical analysis of how 'consistent' our team was game to game, compared to other top 25-60 teams.
As fans, we often fail to remember that athletes don't have their best game every night. Most fans will hear/read this, and think to themselves 'well of course not', but yet make comments bewildered when comparing the team's good and bad days (especially frequent in football, where there are significantly less data points). The reality is that this team isn't going to beat a Duke every night, but they're not going to lose to a St. Louis every night either. We were slightly above .500 in the ACC, and we got beat by a team of similar talent who was playing hot when we were not.
This team even compared to last years team was wildly inconsistent. The three biggest areas would be three point shooting, three point defense and turnovers. Nights they kept turnovers under 10 was almost always a win but above it were the long nights. Nights they shot better than 40% from outside was another good indicator of winning basketball, nights they let opponents over that number were usually ugly. One other piece that was noted above was pace of play. When the Hokies play fast they were typically more consistent shooting and forcing turnovers leading to transition baskets. Then there was the cement shoe alter ego. Those Hokies surrendered big leads or got blown out because they werent mentally there. Jekyll and Hyde.
Rob you hit the nail on the head, and actually drove it into the wood. You mentioned things that I didn't even take into account. Jekyll and Hyde is a perfect explanation of what this season was. It was hard to get excited because you knew they'd break your heart a game or two later. That's the ACC for you, unless you have elite talent and a good team chemistry inconsistency is going to happen when you face tough challenges every night.
Matchups, matchups, matchups. Last season, Wiscy was about the worst matchup for us imaginable. They should have been seeded much higher than they were, which really screwed us over. Alabama wasn't a terrible matchup, but again the 8/9 game is always a toss-up. I'd be willing to bet WVU had some favorable matchups that year and didn't play down to the competition like this Buzz team is apt to do.
Some of the problems you can't pin on Buzz. He didn't plan on Med becoming irrelevant. He didn't plan on Ty blowing his knee out, or Dream leaving unexpectedly. Some of the gameplanning issues were Buzz taking a gamble. Do we pack the paint and try to limit easy buckets but leave ourselves somewhat exposed from 3? Or do we try the opposite? Now Buzz himself has admitted they didn't spend as much time on defense as they should have, and they spent more time on it late season My guess is Buzz learns from that. This season was a great learning experience for players and coaches alike.
Let's also not forget a few things about the players themselves. KBJ is just a (r)So, he has a lot of learning and polishing to do and it showed. Chris Clarke also needs to polish his game and learn to control his athleticism. What REALLY stands out to me though is the decline of Med to complete irrelevance. We really needed his ability to stretch the court to make our offense complete. But when he's not scoring and missing key defensive switches and playing lazy in general, you have to turn to DWill. I love me some DWill, but he's not going to shoot the ball hardly ever and he never drives it either. His defense is top notch, but you essentially have a dead space on offense when he's out there. Buzz had to make a choice. You can potentially pin pin some of these developmental or otherwise problems on Buzz, but he assuredly has addressed some of these. Perhaps the players couldn't adjust quick enough or didn't want to adjust. Buzz can't snap Med out of his funk, or make Dev a better scorer.
I'm not saying we can't hold Buzz, Bud, Fuente or any of our coaches accountable. I'm not saying we shouldn't be upset, sad, or mad when we lose (cuz this one really stung). I'm saying let's not throw the coach or the team under the bus on stuff that can't be fixed overnight.
Hey, whoa, whoa. Easy there.
"I hate to bring up Huggins again, but how good was the team he inherited in 07? "
They went 27-9 in 2006 and won the NIT. The two previous teams made the regional finals and sweet 16. So they were slightly better than the team JJ left Buzz.
Agreed. I think it's almost miraculous what he's done in 4 years considering the program's historical track record.
That being said, and this isn't a knock on Buzz, but I think that a different coach might have been able to do it even quicker had they kept the pieces intact that Buzz inherited. Guys like Emelogu and Thompson were clearly talented, but for whatever reason didn't fit with Buzz. A guy like Kevin Keatts was able to pull together an underachieving NC State team using talented pieces recruited by the former coach. Chris Holtmann overachieved with an Ohio State team that wasn't projected to make the tournament and really only had one player with any name value in Keita Bates-Diop.
However, you can't look at Coach A versus Coach B in a vacuum. You have to consider the circumstances around Buzz's hire. I don't think guys like Keatts or Holtmann ever consider coming to Blacksburg in the first place, because let's face it, it's not like VT was a top-tier job (or is now, or maybe ever will be). NC State & OSU have inherent advantages over VT when it comes to basketball.
That's what makes Buzz's transformation of the program, and resulting perception of Virginia Tech, so impressive. Yeah, he may have run off talented players at the outset that another coach might not, but in doing so he created a culture that blossomed even earlier than he expected. That's amazing.
Again, agreed. I also can envision NAW as that second guy. If he can make a leap and we're able to run more offense through him next year, our ceiling goes even higher. He's shown that he's unafraid of taking big shots (the UVA game comes to mind).
All in all, this program has another level it can reach next year. The ACC schedule could also be a little easier next year, as we won't face Duke twice next year. Can't wait already, big things are still ahead of us.
I'm trying to avoid this so badly. I don't want to compare Buzz against anyone else, as much as I wanted to point to other programs that have recovered in a quicker manner. Your NCST/OSU comparison is perfect, the only issue is that they have more name power for college basketball versus a place like VT. That's why I went with WVU, and that might not even be the best example. Just looking for smarter people in the room here on TKP to do their best to say this program rebounded (no pun intended) quicker even though they are a non-perennial location for NBA talent.
If he stays I totally agree. I think a short memory is NAW's biggest hang-up, when he makes a bad play he usually ends up on the bench after one or two possessions because he's kicking himself for it on both ends of the court. I think if he can improve in this area his alpha potential is there, the way he drives to the basket shows his confidence.
The WVU is example is terrible (and I don't say that to be mean at all, it just is). There are zero similarities.
WVU went to the Elite 8 in 2005 (an OT game away from a FF), sweet sixteen in 2006, and won the NIT in 2007.
John Ballein wasn't fired - he left for greener pastures in Michigan.
Huggins came in for 2008 and they were ready to compete on day 1.
That's the research I needed someone else to do, because I'm trying to be productive at work today. No offense taken at all Beave.
Pretty much the only comparison I can make in recent memory to what Buzz has accomplished at VT is... brace yourselves... what Tony Bennett did at Washington State.
Washington State had only made the tourney 4 times EVER before Tony Bennett took over, and he took them to the tourney in back-to-back years. What he did there might be even more remarkable than Buzz's job at VT, since VT has shown in the past you can at least have a consistently solid program under the right leadership.
Since Bennett left, they haven't sniffed the postseason again (including the NIT).
How long did it take Bennett to go to back to back tourney runs? Did they advance? All research I could do, but since you did most of it already I figured I'd rely on you LOL. I think Bennett at WSU is better than Bennett at UVA, because UVA, as much as I throw up in my mouth a little when I say this, had a pedigree/history of winning in college basketball before he got there. That's why I think the WSU comparison works better.
I fully expect to get torched for this response...LOL.
To be fair, maybe the Tony Bennett at Washington State narrative should have a bit of an asterisk.
The reason is that his dad, Dick Bennett, was the coach for 3 years prior to Tony taking over the job. They had losing seasons all 3 years Dick was HC going 11-17 in his final season, but in Tony's first year as HC the team went 26-8 and lost in the second round of the tourney. In Year 2 under Tony, they went 26-9 and made the Sweet 16. In Year 3 they missed the postseason with a 17-16 record, then he left to take the head job at UVA.
Still an impressive job, but as far as program-building, it wasn't solely Tony's handiwork. But regardless, the idea of bringing Dick Bennett to Washington State was mostly to ensure the transition to Tony (per David Teel's recent excellent profile of how UVA hired Tony). If interested, here's the link:
http://www.dailypress.com/sports/uva/dp-spt-tony-bennett-uva-0314-story.html
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You get a leg for the quick research done. I think the Bennett comparison certainly applies still, if just because his dad had losing seasons prior to him taking over the helm.
Wait wait wait. Wtf is going on here? This is nuts. Do I need to be watching those Bravo Housewives shows?
I don't know man, but I showed the gif I came up with and my wife knew the scene immediately, I didn't know how to feel about that. I think we've confirmed one of her guilty pleasure shows lol
I might've found a comparable program, TCU and Jamie Dixon. 2 years in the making. A lot will depend on how they do this tournament to see if it's "apples to apples." (in quotes for good reason, clearly you can't compare one for one, one program and another program)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCU_Horned_Frogs_men%27s_basketball
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/pitt-basketballs-bungling-of-jamie-dixon-and-kevin-stallings-gets-dumber-by-the-day/
Speaking of Tony Bennett....
I can tell you right now NAW is not going to leave. He might have been a highly rated recruit, but he won't get drafted. 2nd round is generally lots of Europeans and older players from the NCAA.
He has potential obviously, but he is staying. Hell, doubt he would even get drafted honestly.
I think
BudBuzz gets a passgood post-it can't be the refs every time we lose, can it?
Appreciate it Kop #YNWA
Wishing for another LeDay or Allen is all fine, but if you're going to look backwards for inspiration, might as well wish for another Dell Curry or Bimbo Coles. We have to go to war with the army we have, to borrow a few words, and I, for one, think we're still lacking a couple of soldiers to advance further into the W column. Since Buzz has said himself that he knows sometimes that changing things is good, hence the belated emphasis on defense for example, how about he changes his OKG to include some taller guys to help around the basket and on interior defense? We could use help in rebounding, especially offensively, and if defense is to be a renewed point of emphasis, a bit of length would be in our favor, wouldn't it?
As for officiating, that'll never change. Everyone, except Duke of course, feels like they get jobbed by the stripes, and I'd bet every close game produces the whining response we regularly see vented here. I used to be the biggest offender and regularly made an ass of myself at games and home griping and screaming at the refs, but all I got out of it was dirty looks and a red face. I can't blame Buzz for getting hot and trying to protect his players, but that T last night was totally counterproductive, at best.
Like you said, Buzz was hot because he's competitive and because he's trying to protect his player. The defender left no room for 5 to come down after his shot, not to mention anyone with a good set of eyes could see the defender shifted his feet. It was TOTALLY counterproductive I agree, but I think it was more of a instance of Buzz protecting his player and his team than it was him losing his cool. Even he said having the towel in his hand probably made it seem a lot worse of a rant.
Not to mention Buzz could see the one official call the blocking foul and the other overrule him.
Yeah I would've lost it myself. I know Ryen Rusillo said something about "you can't do that at that point in the game" or something to that affect, but if he knew Buzz he would know that everything Buzz does is in an effort to protect and encourage his players. I didn't see that as a moment of rage, I seen it as a he had no space to land, and one of the refs agreed with that sentiment.
Buzz is our hockey enforcer in those situations. It may not be the best move given the game but damn sure he's gonna have his players back. The safety issue of that play alone is enough to get any coach fired up, let alone JRob being so down about it. Buzz didn't want to argue, he had To argue.
The technical didn't cost us the game (there were plenty of other things that did). And even if it did I wouldn't want Buzz to do anything different. Having a coach with a reputation for sticking up for his guys, going to battle with them, and caring for them is way more important than one tourney win.
So, I was a little curious. It looks like we went into double bonus at 14:45 left in the second half. The next free throws listed for VT occur at 9:36, 8:07, 1:56, and 0:59 left.
For over 5 minutes, no foul was called after the one that sent us to double bonus. Then there was another 6 minute stretch where no foul was called in our favor. Most of the rest of the fouls in the game were called against us in the final few minutes playing catch up.
I can't say what happened regarding why they stopped getting fouls, but I am amazed that, with so much time on the clock when we were in double bonus, we went to the line at least 4 fewer times than they did (20 possible points vs 27 possible points by Bama).
Bama had a very sloppy 52 second of play where the officials had to call the fouls. Then they ignore everything for the most part until the teams were caught up.
We never drove the basket. Once Bama got in foul trouble we should have had NAW, Clarke, and JRob driving the paint on every possession. But we didn't. We settled largely for a perimeter offensive game where we were looking for open jumpers. You're not going to get sent to the line very often by playing offense like that.
Excellent point. Seems like a good bit of game planning could have been harvesting fouls and getting some of their best players out.
Maybe it was, though, as they had a LOT of fouls. Just wonder if we could have exploited it more, like you're saying.
They had two players with four fouls with 14 minutes left and neither player fouled out. They both played about half the remaining minutes and not once did we drive in or force them to defend hard in the paint. Ingram got his fourth with 16.48 left, Thats on the coaching staff. Even Sexton ended up with four fouls with a minute left and hit seven of eight free throws after that.
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20-30% of Buzz's responsibility for the loss is what Rob said above.
I feel like their length really made it hard for us to get into the lane. I think a lot of the pick and roll we were running at the top resulted in 5 opting out of passing it to the big man who bolted into the post. I think the reason he passed on it was because he didn't want to commit a turnover with the length that was present.
Another odd thing happened, I feel like CC wasn't in the game much of the second half until late. He played 3 more minutes than Kerry, and Kerry was in substantial foul trouble for the entire game, not to mention he fouled out late. I think CC, Hill, and others would've bene good slashing options once we got into the double bonus.
Hey 2_Hokie_5, for what it's worth (& this is neither an accusation or a finger-point, it's actually intended as a compliment), if you had posted this last night after the game, I wouldn't have even bothered putting mine up.
For what it's worth MacGruber, I didn't have a problem with your post one bit minus attributing the loss in part on the referees. We 100% did that to ourselves. Anyway, my $0.02...
MacGruber I needed that rage last night man, frfr.
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Suddenly, this doesn't feel so bad...