Landers Nolley's eligibility issue explained

From Mark Berman's article published today:

The NCAA was "skeptical about Nolley's ACT score, with the NCAA thinking it might be too high a score for the typical student with his GPA" so they made him retake the test last week. Nolley only took the ACT once in high school.

Buzz Williams had this to say about this issue last week:

"Some of the bureaucracy that goes on in this industry is just disappointing as a person"

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Comments

To just assume he cheated and not let him play because he did too well is one of the most egregious things I have seen the NCAA do, and they've done a lot

To just assume he cheated and not let him play because he did too well is one of the most egregious NCAA things I have seen the NCAA do, and they've done a lot

(add if applicable) /s

Exactly. And what do they do when there is evidence of institutional cheating?

This is definitely one of those things that if it happens to your team, you roll your eyes at the NCAA and tell them to shove it and how BS this is because shouldn't they worry about the UNCs of the world -- but if we somehow found out that De'Andre Hunter had (for instance) a high school GPA of 2.4 and (for instance) an SAT score of 1590, we'd be all over the NCAA for not doing their job of policing eligibility in the moment, or lambasting them for retroactively punishing the team and not the player.

edit: did i nail that first part or what

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Right, right, right.

You know, because guilty until proven innocent is totally the way to go in situations like this. Heaven forbid the kid got lucky on the test or is just a naturally good test taker who doesn't give a damn about homework. I would know, I was a student like that as well. Hell, when I was back in high school, I had one friend who only had a good GPA because that person took enough IB, AP, and Honors classes with potential scores of 6.0 inflating it decently enough to get to the mid to high 3s that got in the low 1200s that got a perfect score on the ACT. And that person went on to run track for a Div 1 school in college. Didn't hear the NCAA sniffing around there.

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

What are you even arguing here? Is it:

(a) you didn't have the reaction that you definitely had
(b) you wouldn't be quick to jump on the NCAA if this came out about a rival school or one of college basketball's historically elite programs
(c) you wouldn't be angry about the NCAA enforcing retroactive punishment on the program years down the road instead of taking corrective/preventive action now as soon as there is a noted "irregularity"

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Landers Nolley enrolled at Virginia Tech on June 1st.

The fact its fucking November 13th, nearly 5 and a half months later, and the NCAA is just now forcing him to retake the ACT because they don't think its good is pure fucking horseshit. I don't care if he played for us, VMI, UVa, or Duke, I would still think that kind of lag is bullshit.

This should have been dealt with over the summer. The fact that it wasn't shouldn't be on us or on Nolley, and he should be playing. And that should apply to all players at all schools. NCAA, do your goddamn job in a timely manner. And if you can't, don't punish the students and schools because of your incompetence.

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

but at the same time let's not pretend we're not extra pissed about it being us. of course we are.

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

agreed because someone doesn't do their job this hurts the kid. You may say its just Gardner Webb, but that is a game he will never be able to get back. A game can help his development and his future in the game.

74-54

A game can help his development

Not directed at you, but at the same time we are arguing NOT to schedule a 12th football game. Smh.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Basketball and football are different though

Ok. Gardner Webb versus a legit D1 football opponent with another week of practice an opportunity (maybe) to become bowl eligible which leads to an extra few weeks of practice. They ARE different.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

It can be different for the player. Assuming he is trying to go pro after one year. Im pretty sure any and every game can help with his case of being a pro talent.

Completely agree. And unless this was accompanied by allegations of cheating by the testing center or a witness, etc, then he should be playing until the NCAA has a credible reason to decide otherwise. This is truly the most outlandish thing I've ever seen from the NCAA.

So what happens if, in his retake, it's high enough to qualify but far below his original?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't this what the NCAA Clearinghouse is for? You apply to play an NCAA sport while you are in high school, and you are deemed eligible/ineligible based on grades, test scores, etc.

So what's the point of that entity if you just decide 5.5 months later that something "looks fishy"?

When he gets cleared, I'd love for Buzz to go into a press conference and start calling NCAA guys out for pulling this in the first place.

The timing is crappy, but the ACT is only given at certain times of the year. Granted he was enrolled in the summer, but that also didn't mean that he was "on the team and playing." He could have redshirted, gotten hurt, been kicked off for some reason, whatever. It's not until he's ready to actually play, and the season starts that it becomes something that can be addressed, and in all reality actually handled.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

That's some shit.

So they're accusing him of cheating on the ACT, and this is a "guilty until approved innocent" situation until his new score comes in, proving that he wasn't cheating?

What happens if the second time around he scores even better? Are they gonna think he cheated again?

His high school coach says Nolley is on pace to make the honor roll this semester... The NCAA will probably accuse him of cheating in his college classes too

Deans list

Recruit Prosim

I thought this same thing. What happens if he gets a 4.0 now? (I hear he is tracking to make Dean's list) Does the NCAA double down on this bullshit? There has GOT to be something Whit can do here. It C.R.A.Z.Y!

Tu-rod did it Mikey! Tu-rod did it!

Too high a score for someone with his GPA?

I'm sorry, I didn't realize they were an academic board going over every damn academic file with a fine tooth comb. Something tells me if he was accepted to... Oh, I don't know, Duke or North Carolina, there would be no questions about his ability to take tests.

The NCAA can go ahead and shove it for all I care. They don't give a flying fuck about the wellfare of the student.

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Derek Rose can flat just get someone else to take it for him and play right away for calipari though. Hmm.

Money talks.

74-54

Nobody's gonna point out the obvious? This is likely a direct result of Derrick Rose having someone else take the SAT for him.

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

That is complete horseshit from the NCAA. Nolley should file a discrimination suit against the NCAA...

He should at least threaten it. That would be all over the news and the NCAA would want to avoid that at all costs I would think

Why would it be discrimination? The NCAA just didn't think the GPA and the ACT score jived together. Race, religion, gender, sexual preference, or age didn't have anything to do with it.

I think this case is ridiculous also... just based on the statute of limitations. Yelling "Discrimination!" in this case is not a good idea, and makes it look as though you might be making an assumption as well.

Leonard. Duh.

While I agree it wouldn't be a good idea to accuse them (because there's no way he could ever prove it), I have to say that as a white guy, I can't help but wonder if the NCAA would've taken the same course of action if Tyler Hansbrough performed uncharacteristically well on the ACT.

I doubt it.

Yes, actually... they would have.

A white baseball player who went to my child's high school went through the same thing with the PSAT/SAT and GPA scenario.

Leonard. Duh.

Damn right it's discrimination by the ncaa!!! Any school not named duke or unc is discriminated against when it comes to basketball.

Kentucky, Arizona, Kansas, and if things keep up Villanova

This is absolutely appalling behavior by the NCAA. They should be embarrassed and honestly VT should be making a huge stink about this after it is solved.

Meanwhile King Roy whistles down Main St Chapel Hill without a care.

Unbelievable.

'Its easy to grin, when your ship comes in, and you've got the stock market beat,
but the man worthwhile, is the man who can smile, when his shorts are too tight in the seat'

This is complete horseshit.

Aside from the "GPA too low compared to test score": How, HOW can the NCAA force the kid to retake the ACT when he has been enrolled for almost a complete semester, and is probably 2 years removed from that test, OR studying for that test? How is that even a legitimate option?

What a complete crock of bologna.

And if he bombs it now, is it not possible that he's super nervous because so much is riding on it? Then we'll just declare him ineligible because he didn't do as well as the first time? There is literally no way of knowing what happened unless he or somebody else tells them he cheated.

"Some of the bureaucracy that goes on in this industry is just disappointing as a person"

I was trying to think of a better way to say this but...

"What are you going to do, stab me? - Quote from Man Stabbed

It must be really hard for Buzz to bite his tongue on this one. I definitely would not have been as careful with my words, which is just one reason why I'm not the face of a Div I basketball program. Buzz should just go full Mike Gundy and say what he really thinks.

--
"It's time to go play Virginia Tech Football longer and harder than anybody else in America!!" -- Justin Fuente
"I put a brick in Sacksburg today." -- Cam Phillips

Yeah, it was very clear he had some choice words he wanted to say. I've seen him deliberate on word choice before. Friday night was a whole different level.

At least he practices what he preaches.

via Gfycat

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used."
- The BoD

my GPA was shhhhhhh. I mean I barely went to school my fresh, soph year of highschool. not because I wasn't smart. because I was a dummy. (oxymoron forsure) so I had to bust my A just to graduate highschool with a 2.5 (yes I played sports all 4 years) but more so to go to a college I wanted to go to I had to study my mother freaking ahhh off to get a great score on the SATs. there are plenty of plausible reasons why your test score can be significantly better than your GPA. most of which have to do with applying yourself for so than cheating. IMO.

twitter @smithey_daniel
head scout BSP scouting specializing in north florida/ southern GA highschool football scouting

I'm mostly entertained by the way you censored yourself in that post. I was laughing my mother freaking ahhh off.

Leonard. Duh.

The NCAA should expedite the test return for this stupidity.

Always choose joy.

And I know honor's students who absolutely bombed their SATs, and a Summa Cum Laude who graduated law school who couldn't pass the bar. Test scores have no bearing on academic ability.

Never Forget #1 Overall Seed UVA 54, #64 UMBC 74

Initial reaction:

Then I thought about it for a few, and...

So, yeah...

Danny Coale Caught That Ball!!!

Did the NCAA just find out his GPA and test scores like 2 weeks ago? IT'S NOVEMBER. He's been enrolled for months now..

This sucks, but I'm glad that the issue here is just that our player has test scores that are better than expected.

Maybe he hasn't adjusted well to his collegiate workload. Maybe he has some personal shit going on that is affecting his grades. Maybe he tests really well. Maybe he just hates homework.

Seriously, the NCAA really has time to check a single student's test scores against his GPA, but can't be bothered with coaches killing players, coaches fucking little kids, schools making up classes, etc., etc., et fucking cetera?

MAYBE THE NCAA CAN GO FUCK ITSELF!!!

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used."
- The BoD

It gets worse than I think you interpreted it.

Nolley is doing really well in college. He's on pace for the honor roll. The NCAA is basing their decision off Nolley's high school GPA.

Oh shit! How did I miss that part? WTactualF? If he's on pace for the honor roll in college, how the hell does the NCAA have any kind of argument?

I am no lawyer by any means, but I think this needs one. What a crock!

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used."
- The BoD

Probably because "on pace for honor roll" has no meaning until final grades are posted. Even if you calculate them out yourself, there's no official documentation the NCAA can look at and say "hey, you're on pace for honor roll".

Even so, it's still a load of garbage that the NCAA is doing this.

I get that, but didn't he enroll in the summer? So, he would officially have a collegiate GPA for summer session.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used."
- The BoD

Soooo...what happens when he makes Dean's List?

A. The NCAA reinstates him and admits they were wrong
B. The NCAA doubles down and accuses him of cheating on his VT courses.

It would honestly not surprise me if they went option B at this point. This whole things feels like I'm taking CRAZY PILLS!

Tu-rod did it Mikey! Tu-rod did it!

Ok, so what if he doesn't do as well on this next try? That is hardly evidence to support him cheating on the first test. Maybe he got lucky the first time. Maybe he gets unlucky this time. I just don't understand what this is going to accomplish.

Find evidence to support him cheating and do nothing until you do. If not, then fuck off.

Or maybe he's been in college for 5 months(?) and isn't prepped to take an ACT right now

(add if applicable) /s

That too. I did well enough on my MCAT, but now that I've been in med school for a few months I would probably fail it if someone forced me to retake it. I doubt he has any time to study for a standardized test like that now that he also has the workload of university, as well as practicing for the basketball team.

Ok, great job, NCAA. Show us you're doing your job and nail the cheating Louisvilles, Kentuckys, & UNCs of the collegiate landscape instead of nit-picking someone's above norm ACT score. What happens if he scores lower on the retake - throw the book at him making him ineligible or make him take it a 3rd time? Unless they have better evidence that he really cheated, they shouldn't be able to postpone his eligibility, unless they want to grant him a 5th year, especially if this continues to be an issue.

"That man was violating a city ordinance, and I was just doing my duty to enforce it." - Mike Curtis

"You boys in there smokin' rope?"-Johnny Unitas (circa 1973) to his San Diego Chargers teammates

This was my thought as well, if this isn't resolved by the next semester, if Landers test and grades are clean, they owe this kid his year back that they stole from him.

Are you... are you fucking kidding me?

I didn't have a very good GPA in high school, because I didn't give a shit. But I did pretty well on my SATs, because I tried. And I didn't even have a backup plan like, say, getting an athletic scholarship.

Is it that unusual for a highly-recruited athlete to give less than max effort in the classroom?

Is it really more likely that he cheated on the ACT, than he just didn't give a shit about doing his biology homework in 9th grade?

Holy shit, I just reread the article, and it somehow gets worse

"He did extremely well [on the ACT]," Welsh said in a phone interview. "He's a very intelligent kid. He really has the natural ability to be an honor student. The type of focus [he had] his last year of high school, if he would've had that type of focus his freshman year and his sophomore year, he probably would end up being an Ivy League-type guy, because he has that type of intelligence level.

"So they're making him basically retake the test, simply because he did very well on it, which I thought was utterly stupid.

"Since he's been enrolled at Virginia Tech, ... he's on track to make the honor roll for his first semester."

In other words, he slacked off a couple years, got his shit together, completely knocked it out of the park GPA-wise during at least his senior year, used that work ethic to get a good score on the ACT.... But the NCAA just took one look at the GPA, which is negatively impacted by slacking off his freshman and sophomore years, and deems he cheated.

Man, this is some high grade bullshit. He's literally being defined by his actions as a 13 and 14 year old, despite having very, very clearly turned his life around.

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

In other words, he slacked off a couple years, got his shit together, completely knocked it out of the park GPA-wise during at least his senior year, used that work ethic to get a good score on the ACT....

You just described most high school students. Sadly he's only being singled out because he can shoot a basketball.

Man, this is some high grade bullshit. He's literally being defined by his actions as a 13 and 14 year old, despite having very, very clearly turned his life around.

Or he just grew up. Kids realize at different points that school's important. I had friends who changed trajectories starting in 7th grade all the way into college because they matured as people. (I'm nitpicking your wording of "turn his life around" here)

Outside it's night time, but inside it's LeDay

This seriously needs to be tried in the court of public opinion. Someone needs to elevate this to ESPN, etc. and expose this insanity. This is borderline criminal behavior by the NCAA.

'Its easy to grin, when your ship comes in, and you've got the stock market beat,
but the man worthwhile, is the man who can smile, when his shorts are too tight in the seat'

Maybe they are hard lining us, to keep the Department of Education from stepping in....much like the FBI did on the Adidas paying players situation.

We put the K in Kwality

Some folks trying to get #FreeNolley trending on the twittersphere.

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

release the hounds! 🐕

Had me until this... what does #1 overall NCC Tournament seed UVA getting beat by a #16 seed have to do with UNC?

"What are you going to do, stab me? - Quote from Man Stabbed

Sounds like uncheat, I mean the NCAA is nervous about our team maybe having enough firepower to become *Gasp* relevant and competitive.

When I was in high school, I had to bust my ass to get a good GPA. This required meeting deadlines on homework and projects, balancing sports and school, and preparing for and doing well on presentations and speeches.

For ACT, all I had to do was show up for four hours on a Saturday morning and take an exam. I didn't study for it or do anything that required any work outside of the test itself aside from getting registered. My ACT score was good enough to get me where I needed to be.

It's not uncommon to see a kid outperform their GPA on a standardized test. Not sure why the NCAA is picking on Nolley.

Marshall University student.
Virginia Tech fanatic.

Tweet it to Bilas.... you know he'd love another chance to hammer the NCAA publicly. He's been after their butts for years.

'Its easy to grin, when your ship comes in, and you've got the stock market beat,
but the man worthwhile, is the man who can smile, when his shorts are too tight in the seat'

Glad this is getting the attention of some national sports media folks. Maybe with increased awareness, they can turn the heat on the NCAA.

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

Don't hold your breath...

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Oh, I know it won't change the course, but the more people aware of this absurdity, the better

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

I really, really, really like Jay Bilas. He calls the NCAA out for their shit all the time.

Landers is traveling, hopefully they get it cleared up before Thursday morning

Good and bad news. Would have loved to have him for the tournament. Glad he's on the way back.

Took it last week, takes 2 weeks to receive results so that sounds right. Man I hope Bilas, Dickie V, Reese Davis, Someone does a full on rant on the air about this.

'Its easy to grin, when your ship comes in, and you've got the stock market beat,
but the man worthwhile, is the man who can smile, when his shorts are too tight in the seat'

With this news Blackshear has to find a way to stay out of foul trouble because Ball State has two really capable bigs that play the majority of the game together

KJB already has 2 fouls.

What a fucking scam.

On a humorous and somewhat related note, the second and final time my dad hit me as a kid was when I got my SAT scores back. Was that cuz I bombed it? Nope, it was because I crushed it and proved that I'd just been a total fuck up in high school.

"for a second there we thought you might just be an idiot" *smack* "go do some fucking homework"

Old sigline: I've been cutting back on the drinking.

New Sigline: lol it's football season.

What y'all said.

21st century QBs Undefeated vs UVA:
MV7, MV5, LT3, Josh Jackson, Jerod Evans, Michael Brewer, Tyrod Taylor, Sean Glennon, and Grant Noel. That's right, UVA. You couldn't beat Grant Noel.

True

I agree with all points made here.

We should also mention that it's very difficult to cheat and very unlikely that people cheat. A quick Google search tells me that about 2,500 are suspected of cheating a year, with about 1,000 having their scores cancelled. 1.6 million take the dang test in a given year.

ACT question: What are the odds Landers Nolley cheated on this damn test?
A) Go fuck yourself, NCAA
B) You're terrible at your jobs
C) Both A and B
D) Neither A nor B

This should be on the Big Show radio show in the Current Events Quiz. The answer on that is always C.

Pain is Temporary, Chicks Dig Scars
Glory is Forever, Let's Go Hokies!!

So, 0.0625% of cancelled tests are cheating related.

Since this is a basketball thread.... something something UVA lost to a #16 seed, which had never happened and had better odds than those of Nolley cheating on his ACT.

#FreeNolley

So the NCAA is saying Nolley is stupid and therefore couldnt possibly do well on a test? VT/Buzz/somebody should make a big deal out of this

Or just as bad/ worse saying he somehow cheated...

'Its easy to grin, when your ship comes in, and you've got the stock market beat,
but the man worthwhile, is the man who can smile, when his shorts are too tight in the seat'

This is still not resolved.

What a crock of horseshit.

Somebody on twitter should be blasting this story out and @ing all sorts of sports media. This is an absolute joke, and something which a lot of sports media would love to use to hammer the NCAA over.

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

Agree- Jay Bilas weighed in once, we need to get this back in front of him. He's like the people's leader for all things anti-NCAA.

Any sauces on whether he has been cleared for tomorrow or not? This seems like something that could continue to push out and become a somewhat big but quiet controversy.

"If at first you do not succeed, then skydiving is not for you." - Anonymous

I have the same faith I have in the DMV in the NCAA the incompetence is astounding

Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

"Now serving B43 at window number 8"

All 117 people that are waiting look at each other to see who has B43; after the number is called out three more unsuccessful times, a new fictitious number is announced.

because everyones ticket says something like J213

twitter @smithey_daniel
head scout BSP scouting specializing in north florida/ southern GA highschool football scouting

This process feels as if there would be some reasonable blowback on the NCAA if Landers wanted to push the issue that they are unfairly and unjustly holding his future back without cause. Has anyone heard of there is any resolution within sight?

I think this is completely unfair and absolutely ridiculous the NCAA has nobody to oversee them therefore there is no viable reason needed, no deadline on resolution and no line of sight to an update even to the institution. I think tech fans should be getting fired up about this as it feels like is being picked on - or the kid being picked on unfairly.

This is all a UVA conspiracy, I assure you. It won't go away until they win a bowl game, so Landers should probably take the redshirt this year.

This whole situation is completely and utterly rediculous! Buzz should be livid!

"That man was violating a city ordinance, and I was just doing my duty to enforce it." - Mike Curtis

"You boys in there smokin' rope?"-Johnny Unitas (circa 1973) to his San Diego Chargers teammates

If thats the case, then Landers might need to look at going pro because his eligibility years might be gone before LOLUVA wins a bowl game

If thats the case, then Landers might needs to look at going pro because his eligibility years might will be gone before LOLUVA wins a bowl game

FTFY

I think it's about time for Buzz to hold a press conference and get himself fined. Start cussin. Do something. This has gone on for long enough, and the longer it remains unresolved, the less confidence I have that it will get resolved. We could use some public outrage to push this process along. I think Buzz throwing a little fit would at least get people talking.

It has gotten way too quiet since it first came out. This should be discussed on ESPN and the such. They should have caught this during the ACT. They should have caught this during clearinghouse. They should have caught this during enrollment. This should have been investigated and solved before the season. Since the start of the season, VT has said they hope it is resolved by the next game. This has continued through 6 games now with still no definite timeline other than he retook it a couple weeks ago. The scores are instant, so my only guesses are that he did better which confuses the NCAA into melting their minds, or the more likely scenario. He did worse, but they have to figure out how much worse would mean his original score is legitimate.

Start cussin.

Let's all settle down now.

Outspoken team cake advocate. Hates terrapins. Resident Macho Man Gif Poster. Distant cousin to Dork Magic. Frequently misspells words.

So, trying to put a timeline together.
When did he retake the ACT?
And does anyone have any scoop on what he scored?

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

how in the day old kong bao chicken fuck is this still going on

21st century QBs Undefeated vs UVA:
MV7, MV5, LT3, Josh Jackson, Jerod Evans, Michael Brewer, Tyrod Taylor, Sean Glennon, and Grant Noel. That's right, UVA. You couldn't beat Grant Noel.

I don't have a public twitter so Bilas will not see my tweets, but can we start blowing up his mentions about this? He has clout to make this an issue that is talked about this week, given it is a quiet week in sports.

Use the hashtag #FreeNolley

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

The longer this drags on, the more worried I get. Really hope this clears up soon.

Have to wonder if his ACT retest raised some questions.

Doesn't matter if it's cake or pie as long as it's chocolate.

At this point I'm wondering if we'll see him this year.

Hokies United l Ut Prosim

yeah maybe drew harris can help him out with the paper work.

twitter @smithey_daniel
head scout BSP scouting specializing in north florida/ southern GA highschool football scouting

As long as he did good enough to qualify, it should be good enough.
Makes no difference if he did better or worse than the last time.

They have no standing to think he cheated, if they did, they'd have pulled that last summer. If he didn't score enough to qualify, give him a red shirt and sue the NCAA for setting a different qualification criteria than anyone else.

Everyone only needs to have 1 score good enough for admittance, noone else needs to qualify twice.

This is going to be great for the ACC.

It is time for everyone to call his/her U.S. Senator and demand answers. Call them every day until Nolley is Free.

--
"It's time to go play Virginia Tech Football longer and harder than anybody else in America!!" -- Justin Fuente
"I put a brick in Sacksburg today." -- Cam Phillips

13 new comments... Oh we must have figured something out about...

oh, nope, still more of the same.

dammit

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Now, Cole, when you shift the gear and that little needle on the tach goes into the red and reads 9000 RPMs, that's bad!

"For those who have passed, for those to come, reach for excellence."

I'm so ashamed

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

I'm really kind of surprised there's not more out there about this and/or CC.

Need more sauces!

Hokies United l Ut Prosim

Retweet.

You'd think I'd learn that any major news will result in a new thread, but no.

#FREENOLLEY

"For those who have passed, for those to come, reach for excellence."

As frustrating as this situation is, I truly enjoyed hearing Mark Few call out the NCAA on Sunday. As unrelated as it is, it's just another frustrating chapter in the book of the NCAA. The best part was him saying that a lot of programs do it right, 2 of the last 3 years a program that has done it right has won the championship. I guess you're the odd man out Roy.

The zags vs UNC should be interesting with that tidbit!!

We should merge the what is the NCAA doing to resolve the Landers Nolley situation with the what is being done to get Chris Clarke back on the basketball team since the answer to both has been identical since both situations arose - ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Since I graduated a day or two ago, could someone tell me when grades will be coming out, has to be soon, and if it turns out Landers is on the honor roll as some have indicated, it will be time to sling some SERIOUS mud on the NCAA. "Uh, we were just keeping an honor roll student-athlete from playing for a dozen games because we uh uhm, well, because uh, we thought the honor roll student's test score was too high" Wow does that sound dumber than a fence post. Let's get the mud ready.

The LewDew, Professional Golf Bum

clarke is a result school/athletic department policy i believe, not NCAA

Yes. Clarke was a different situation and if rumors are true it's justified and would be the same result anywhere - emphasis on if true.
Nolley situation is curious and ridiculous. No matter the result, there seems to be no proof to make him take the ACT again and if he did shouldn't it be resolved by now. My "sauce" was told he got the same exact score as previously questioned with no timeline on an outcome from the NCAA. VT has to be quiet by the rules publicly, but is beyond steamed.
Landers deserves a formal apology from the NCAA from my standpoint.

A few other rumors to connect some dots here:

CC: apparently the young lady recanted much of her story and has transferred from the university. But there may be something here anyway, maybe there was an altercation that wasn't violent but was in violation of done other code. It is believed to be a Judicial Review situation at VT.

Nolley - Buzz said publicly last Monday that the HS coach who talked to Berman didn't have the whole story. Rumors that he retook the ACT and other rumors that he did fine on the retake. But more to the story could mean anything. For instance, maybe somebody came to the NCAA with information, that would explain the late start on this. If there was something untoward on the test, even if there was a retest, ther could be a suspension.

In both situations, with the end of the semester days away, we could see some movement. Hang tight. We don't know as much as we think we do.

Judicial Review situation at VT.

Kangaroo Court.

FTFY

You will see this game, this upset and this sign next on ESPN Sportscenter. Virginia Tech 31 Miami 7

I get to deal with student judicial affairs after break here at Marshall. Looking forward to it! /s

Marshall University student.
Virginia Tech fanatic.

For your sake, I pray they are much better than VT's.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used."
- The BoD

There are two things that make me ashamed to be a hokie. the underhanded parking services practices, and the student conduct court.

Zhao was arrested for illegal possession of an assault rifle with a 30-round magazine by a noncitizen in January 2018. In February, he was expelled from Virginia Tech, where he was a freshman studying on a student visa, for unauthorized possession of a 5-inch blade on campus. Because he was in jail on the assault-weapon charge, he missed his student conduct hearing about the knife possession, leading to his expulsion and his visa being revoked.

Zhao was cleared of the assault-weapon charge on Sept. 22 due to insufficient evidence, but remained in ICE custody. In early October, an immigration court ruled that Zhao would stay in custody before his asylum hearing,

http://www.collegiatetimes.com/news/former-virginia-tech-student-yunsong...

They expelled him with literally no due process, judged him guilty in absentia because he was imprisoned, and then dropped the charges against him. Our own university literally chased one of our own hokies out of the country and legally shafted him because of his race.

While I am sure we could go on and on about the honor court, this particular case and subject really starts pushing the political lines and should probably be avoided on here. When you start talking weapon laws and race, even quoting an article...

"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders via Ricky Bobby

I agree with you mostly. You can quote articles, as it's actually encouraged if you quote a few lines to help you in whatever you are trying to add to the discussion. What is not ok is quoting an entire article to prevent page clicks.

I had no issue with the article quoting, it was the subject of the article...

"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders via Ricky Bobby

I understand now. My apologies.

Except that has nothing to do with the honor court. Student Conduct Committee is totally separate. Honor court=academics. Student conduct=kangaroos on high horses with far too much power and too little oversight.

you are right, ill correct my mistake.

They are both hung juries

Recruit Prosim

i understand what you are saying, and im not trying to discuss the validity or wisdom of the laws themselves, im talking about the horrible miscarriage of justice as the rules and laws stand right now. I'm saying that a fellow hokie got handed a shit deal, probably altering the rest of his life and not for the better. And no one gives a shit.

I'm sorry if that seems political to you, but I'm just talking about human decency and how hokie nation was supposed to look out for each other. If someone's politics is rubbed the wrong way by that, I don't know what to say to them.

My brother was accused of cheating on an extra credit assignment in a short stories English class where he was asked to interpret a story that is literally 1 page long. They said it was similar to other interpretations on the internet. His teacher refused to talk with him or be present in any of the hearings. They coerced him into essentially signing a plee deal waving his right to appeal the initial decision. They said if he went to a full hearing he would face likely suspension or expulsion. He wasn't allowed to speak to a lawyer and had to make the decision on the spot. My brother offered to provide his laptop and internet history and they wouldn't permit it. Like seriously, how many ways can you interpret a few I'm14AndThisIsDeep level sentences.

They strung up like 6 or 7 students like this and it was obvious that this was entrapment. He had an A in the class and now has an F*. He starts with KPMG this summer. Fuck Virginia Tech's honor program. Shameful.

Recruit Prosim

For instance, maybe somebody came to the NCAA with information, that would explain the late start on this.

I smell Wahoo.

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

More likely UGA.

But given that we were one of their 2 losses last year, Hoo knows...

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

He's missed pretty much all of the non conference play already - like missing the warm-up to the season. If he comes back in a week or two, do you even play him at this point?

JP

If he makes the team better, then yes. Absolutely.

Why wouldn't you? It's not like he has never stepped foot on a basketball court and is learning a new sport. He's a baller. It might take him a minute to gel with the rest of the team, but that's what practices are for.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

To clarify, during this whole ridiculous ordeal, has Nolley been able to practice with the team, just not play in the games? Or has he not been able to do either?

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

Academic ineligibility only prevents you from participating in games, IIRC. He should be able to participate fully in practice.

If he's a young NBA prospect, then the redshirt means next to nothing. Don't know how much court time he's had with the team this fall with the NCAA thing.

JP

pretty sure he's allowed to practice, if he's able to play after the first semester then he's good enough to play. this team is going to make the NCAA tournament and should be aiming to make it to the sweet 16 or further, nolley can help with that

Maybe he can file a lawsuit against the NCAA?

You will see this game, this upset and this sign next on ESPN Sportscenter. Virginia Tech 31 Miami 7

And wait 12 years for them to kick it out? Good luck...

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Without knowing the language of the laws/rules governing this scenario and the investigative process, I don't think Landers would have much reason to sue based on what little he could potentially get out of it. The NCAA would be a legal Goliath relative to the David that is Landers and whomever he would hire to be his lawyer. After all, Landers is still in school getting a free education...how much could you quantity his loss of playing time or delay in development?

I would think, rather, that Virginia Tech would sue because they are the business entity that is a member institution of the organization causing the harm (NCAA). But if I had to guess, VT will just roll with the punches and take the outcome (assuming it is just), even though they are furious and feel abused, because the negative publicity of attacking the NCAA might not be worth it in the end. And you know what? It's the NCAA. They'd probably get away with it even if we had a case against them!

Welp...

Month old thread titled "LANDERS NOLLEY'S ELIGIBILITY ISSUE EXPLAINED" with 150 subsequent comments...

STILL NOT EXPLAINED!

"It's always great to beat UVA, that makes us all smarter and better looking for a couple days".

The NCAA still has its head up its ass looking for the evidence to pull out of it.

If that doesn't explain it well enough, I don't know what will.

Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

If the story is as clear as it seems, we should just start playing him. If the NCAA gets off their ass and clears him we're fine. If they don't we forfeit the wins/national championship, and Buzz goes on Ellen to disgrace the NCAA oversight.

We put the K in Kwality

4 days since last comment. Couldn't let that stand...

Will be interesting to see if Hernandez is cleared after hiring an attorney. I wonder if VT athletics is following other NCAA clearance cases to make sure VT and Nolley are being treated fairly. Maybe there is something to learn from the Hernandez case, albeit a very different eligibility issue, if it is resolved in the coming days.

Dewan Hernandez Hires Attorney to Expedite NCAA Clearance

#FreeNolley

--
"It's time to go play Virginia Tech Football longer and harder than anybody else in America!!" -- Justin Fuente
"I put a brick in Sacksburg today." -- Cam Phillips

It's going to be a giant Eff You to the NCAA if Nolley ends up on dean's list this semester.

I'm not a big torches and pitchfork guy; I'm more of the tacos and tequila variety...

HOWEVER, If young Master Nolley is willing to share his Fall semester grades, and he has a 3.0 or better, I will procure an actual pitchfork, light an actual torch and march on Indianapolis.

NCAA headquarters be warned of the WRATH OF LEONARD.

It's still in Indy, right?

Leonard. Duh.

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

There is some new and not-great information on the Nolley situation behind a paywall, FWIW.

Why can't we have nice things

"These people are losing their minds!"

Readers Digest version?

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

I wouldn't place a lot of hope in seeing him play this season at all. I'll respect the paywall beyond that but my guess is that this will be pretty common knowledge soon.

Now, Cole, when you shift the gear and that little needle on the tach goes into the red and reads 9000 RPMs, that's bad!

Of the ten or so tweets that mention him in last two games about a quarter mention he will transfer.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

So, two tweets mention that?

Is it basketball season yet?

More than that, but still the other teams (Illinois) are refuting that he is transferring there.

I don't see how transferring will allow him to play this year... that should offer some ability to read between the lines.

aw shit, he gone? s/

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

Which paywall?

Chris Arvin at 247 originally posted it

If the NCAA isn't going to let him play, he could go to Europe or G League.

Always choose joy.

This is probably what's best for him at this point. I know nothing about the situation other than what's posted above, but if his ACT is the issue, transferring doesn't help that. I'm not an 18-19 year old kid, but I'm not sure why that's being discussed.

This is probably what's best for him at this point.

What's best for him is probably redshirting this year and playing for VT next season. This NCAA thing doesn't prevent him from playing next season as long as his freshman grades are fine.

Bingo.

Not to mention he gets another year closer to getting a free quality education. Sooner or later he is going to want that college degree.

Others have broken the paywall so there are some new tweets out there that have the info... again, fwiw.

I'm not finding any relevant tweets when I search his name. Just people asking when he's going to play. If others have broken the paywall, doesn't that mean you can share it now? Could you embed the tweets with the info?

Came here to say this exact thing. I'm not seeing anything concrete...just the normal twitter speculation/ranting.

So like I said, nothing concrete. I'll believe it when it's an official TKP article or Bitter or someone similar reports it.

Because you can always trust a Twitter account to tell the truth.

Never Forget #1 Overall Seed UVA 54, #64 UMBC 74

Well guys, my original post wasn't meant to be read as a reliable university announcement, just that there was bad news elsewhere (you can clearly see the first reply to this guys tweet gives it some legs).

Just trying to share the tidbits I find... take it as you will.

No

Recruit Prosim

Am I reading this thread correctly that at this point there is more of a chance that he never plays for us than he does?

I don't think that's the case. Just wouldn't expect to see him until next season.

Can we sue the NCAA for losses? Cause you know, with 5, NAW and Nolley together, this was to be our championship team.

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

(If he's not eligible, then we don't have a case...)

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

But by all accounts, aside from NCAA, he should be eligible, it's just the NCAA's inappropriate fuckery that is making him miss the season

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

Not if the ACT retake was low...

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

what I mean is, if I understand the NCAA correctly (and I could be way off), they are involved in eligibility of student athletes once on campus (maintaining certain GPA, etc.), they are not involved in admission to the school itself. The ACT is for admissions, nothing to do with GPA or eligibility, thus the NCAA has no business saying he needed to retake the test in the first place

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

Thanks for the clarification, was not aware.

It's still horseshit.

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

The complete explanation at this point is that his retake of the ACT makes him a partial qualifier. That means:

  • He can be on scholarship
  • He can practice
  • He can't compete for one full year
  • He has three years of eligibility left after this season

There's good info about it in this old TKP thread.

So, he redshirts...but loses a year of eligibility?

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

Not sure about that, but good question... not sure it matters too awful much. Dude is not playing CBB for 4 years.

He hasn't played a down minute of college ball, and he's already leaving early? I like your optimism, friend.

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

everyone said this about dwayne Lawson and they were right so.....

twitter @smithey_daniel
head scout BSP scouting specializing in north florida/ southern GA highschool football scouting

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

As a partial qualifier that enjoys the scholarship and practicing with the squad, yes. A full qualifier would be able to redshirt. (This is the exact case why prep schools exist. As well as Jan enrollment.)

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Not if he cheated on his ACT originally. The story may be that he has help on the ACT, somebody turned him in this summer (didn't he decommit from UGA?) then he retook them and didn't replicate the high score.

he was committed to UGA for all of 18 hours. Basically had a good visit to UGa, and had a timetable in mind for his decision so he made the emotional call. Spoke with his parents and rescinded the commitment and took his time deciding.

damn you Justin fields!

twitter @smithey_daniel
head scout BSP scouting specializing in north florida/ southern GA highschool football scouting

Yeah, good thing I got a high score on my SAT for my retake.... Wait a minute, I don't remember having to do a retake several months into my first semester. Is this a new rule? Or some made up bullshit from the NCAA?

No.

*Nothing good can come from clicking this thread. Nothing good can come from clicking this thread. Nothing good can come from clicking this...*

*Click*

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

IMO, the second best scene in this movie compared to the desk pop.

"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders via Ricky Bobby

How is this shit still going on? Fuck the NCAA.

I still don't get this situation and how the NCAA can justify any action without proof. If this is all that is required let's make anyone who does well on a test retake until they don't (no pressure). The results are the results until proven otherwise and the NCAA should not be allowed to take something away without true proof and due process.

I don't care if he didn't do as well on the 2nd exam. I promise my SAT score wouldn't be as good as it was under the same circumstances. The NCAA is setting itself up to be sued under this sort of thing as it is an abuse of power and it only takes one case where that power misleads them and the consequences hurt someone(s) and they take action legally and in the court of public opinion. I'm not saying it's easy, but what I am saying is that this process is unjust.

And if the NCAA says he can't play for a year, he might be justified for a 20 million dollar lawsuit. It is hurting his professional development year.

Can confirm. It took me 4.5 years to graduate and I estimate the extra semester cost me somewhere in the neighborhood of $20M in earnings.

Shit, I wonder how much my extra 2 years cost me!

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

And now my master plan is revealed

Buzz did allude to the fact that Berman's article did not have all the facts straight and there is more to this. Buzz did blame the bureaucracy of NCAA, and made it relatively clear IMO that he thinks Nolley is in the right. I actually think there might be a chance that VT messed this up somehow...like, perhaps the ball was in their court, and somehow the compliance office overlooked it and didn't take action soon enough. I still hate the NCAA for this, and hopefully I'm wrong and VT compliance did everything they could to clear this issue up in a timely manner. But no one has mentioned this, and I wanted to bring it up.

--
"It's time to go play Virginia Tech Football longer and harder than anybody else in America!!" -- Justin Fuente
"I put a brick in Sacksburg today." -- Cam Phillips

There is a chance of that, but with Buzz and his staff probably making this a pressing issue from the start, I can't imagine they would have let anyone else overlook or miss something. But who knows, it's obviously not a simple issue.

I just sit on my couch and b*tch. - HokieChemE2016

Definitely not a simple issue. And with all the respect and wanton desire to believe that Buzz and crew are 100% on top of this...that also comes with the assumption that they have 100% of the information. If something shady occurred long before Nolley signed at VT, that info may not be privy to Buzz and all at VT. This makes it truly an odd situation...if true.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

THIS. All of the assumptions everyone has made seem to come from one article involving quotes from his HS coach. Not to say those are completely inaccurate but the NCAA, as unorganized as it is sometimes, doesn't randomly decide to punish a team like that without any reason at all. There definitely seems to be some other factors in play that have stayed in house.

I actually think there might be a chance that VT messed this up somehow...like, perhaps the ball was in their court, and somehow the compliance office overlooked it and didn't take action soon enough.

Did someone say support staff?

I guess my position on this is that if the ACT organization is not challenging Nolley's test score than the NCAA has no business challenging his test score. If it indeed came from the ACT organization than I have no issue with him having to retake the exam. If his retake was even close to good enough to get into school again then I don't think it should matter if its not the same as the first time, because as many have alluded to, when you are preparing to take these kind of tests you are focused on that, not trying to complete your first semester of college workload while actively participating in all non-game activities for a Division I sport. This is especially true if Nolley does end up on the honor roll this semester as some have alluded to above.

I 100% agree. Zero grounds for the NCAA to get involved.

If this was a UVA kid suspected of cheating on the test, most would have a very different opinion.

Come on man... has that been verified anywhere?

suspected of cheating on the test

'Its easy to grin, when your ship comes in, and you've got the stock market beat,
but the man worthwhile, is the man who can smile, when his shorts are too tight in the seat'

Uhhh, his ACT score was above "what is expected given the GPA," and it's under investigation. While not explicitly stated, what else does that suggest?

Seriously asking that question? As has been explained ad nauseum (and outlined in Berman article) the kid was unmotivated as a Fr- So leading to lower GPA and buckled down as a Jr-Sr and was shown to be a kid capable of high level academics. Why do you think schools put high emphasis on test scores?... because they are the playing field leveler when comparing academic abilities beyond GPA's

'Its easy to grin, when your ship comes in, and you've got the stock market beat,
but the man worthwhile, is the man who can smile, when his shorts are too tight in the seat'

He's explaining the NCAA's position.... if the NCAA was satisfied with that backstory they would not have required him to re-take the ACT...

what we as fans, or VT admin, or the coaches, or other observers think about this case doesn't matter, it only matters what the NCAA Clearinghouse thinks.

Your question was "Where was it stated that they think he cheated on the test?" Or, what verified information was there.

They are investigating a difference between test score and GPA. AKA They think he cheated on the test. It doesn't explicitly say "We think he cheated." But investigation of a discrepancy between observed and expected results means they think he cheated.

I hate to be debbie downer, but what IF he cheated? What if his accomplice came forward and the agreement was for him to retake it? I ask all of this because I wonder if we could face NCAA sanctions in any way from this fiasco?

"...I'm getting a little tired of hearing how good everybody else is..." -Coach Fu [This week: 1-0]

If we didn't supply the accomplice, we should be clear.
It's not like we set up fake classes for him or anything. Heck, even that wasn't punished.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

If this was the case, I think the only way we would face any kind of sanctions would be if he had played, right?

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

I guess my thought process was, what if we found out, and didn't report it immediately to the NCAA? And then by the time the season rolled around, the NCAA was involved and we had to sit him? I know I'm stretching this, but I am really trying to give the NCAA the benefit of the doubt, and say, there HAD to be a reason they made him retake it, more than an assumption that he wasn't smart enough to get that score. That's lawsuit level ignorance if those were the grounds they forced him to retake it.

"...I'm getting a little tired of hearing how good everybody else is..." -Coach Fu [This week: 1-0]

There did not have to be a reason outside of the difference in his score and GPA setting off a parameters red flag. After that its ball of red tape nonsense because of how inefficient the NCAA is. It doesn't matter to them if this takes a month or six years because it keeps them employed either way and its not like Virginia Tech is threatening to vacate the NCAA over one student athlete. There is no incentive for them to move quickly on these kinds of actions. Its impacting us directly this time but its not uncommon for these kind of actions to take the majority of the season to be resolved.

Miami right now has junior Dewan Hernandez sitting out with eligibility issues because of the Federal lawsuits for pay to play where his name appeared on a proposed payment plan but all investigations since then have indicated he never received any payments and is not at fault. Yet, somehow he is the only player currently being held out of competition for that debacle.

South Carolina has Jermaine Couisnard, freshman guard, who also appears to be being held out by the NCAA for test scores.

The NCAA waited three weeks into the season to rule on Transfer Teddy Allen's immediate playing request after moving back home to Wichita St from West Virginia, and denied it. Wichita State is still in appeal on that but it looks likely he will have to redshirt.

There are others as well still dealing with NCAA nonsense this far into the season. The NCAA does this every year unfortunately for a few players and unfortunately for us, this year its a critical component made more critical by a senior's getting involved in something that has held him off the court the entire season so far.

Couisnard

Pronounced: Cuisine Art

Couisnard

Pronounced: Cuisine Art

Anagrammed: Saudi Corn, A Disco Run, or A Doc Ruins

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

there HAD to be a reason they made him retake it

It's just a ratio. If a player has A gpa, his acceptable test range is from B to C. If a player has D gpa, his acceptable test range if from E to F. Nolley had an ACT score that was outside the normal range for his GPA. Is was auto-flagged.

Unless we knowingly participated in his cheating there should not be any place for NCAA sanctions. That said it is the NCAA. He has not participated in actual competition and is being allowed the activities determined by the NCAA.

I had a 50 point swing on a section of my SAT's. Must have cheated that first time.

I retook the SATs 5 years after the first time (SAT people said they'd waive all fees if a minimum # Of service members took the test while we were in the Persian Gulf ). So I filled for the one guy they were short.

Score improved 220 points over the first time I took it. No prep, etc.

I must have cheated.

This is going to be great for the ACC.

You got that service member 200 point bump they automatically give. The extra 20 was just luck.

/s

Oh, you funny.

This is going to be great for the ACC.

Something is not adding up. Based on the NCAA qualification info posted above, there is a sliding scale for eligibility where if your GPA is low you can qualify by scoring higher on the SAT/ ACT.... is that not what he did? What the heck is going on?

From NCAA
• Earn a core-course GPA of at least 2.300.
• Earn the ACT/SAT score matching your core-course
GPA on the Division I sliding scale (see back page).

DIVISION I
FULL QUALIFIER SLIDING SCALE
Core GPA New SAT* Old SAT ACT Sum
2.750 810 720 59
2.725 820 730 60
2.700 830 740 61
2.675 840 750 61
2.650 850 760 62
2.625 860 770 63
2.600 860 780 64
2.575 870 790 65
2.550 880 800 66
2.525 890 810 67
2.500 900 820 68
2.475 910 830 69
2.450 920 840 70
2.425 930 850 70
2.400 940 860 71
2.375 950 870 72
2.350 960 880 73
2.325 970 890 74
2.300 980 900 75

'Its easy to grin, when your ship comes in, and you've got the stock market beat,
but the man worthwhile, is the man who can smile, when his shorts are too tight in the seat'

I'm pretty sure I could Christmas Tree my way to those scores.

Rip his freaking head off!

His original ACT score was abnormally high compared to the GPA for his core courses. An anomaly. Which raised the red flag.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

It's like a waitress or bartender filing taxes and not claiming enough income in tips. Auto audit. Just doesn't seem right that it takes this long to figure out what to do about it.

Reel men fish on Wednesdays

Apparently at a certain point on that sliding scale it sets off red flags though which is what is being said happened here. If he retook the test at their request and they lend more credence to his second test than his first based on the circumstances, than it would make it harder for him to qualify if he didn't score high enough. I do not believe I have seen anyone publish what his actual GPA was and his first score. I definitely have not seen a second score. That being the case, we cant be sure where on that scale he initially ended up and how being viewed with a lower score might affect him. I would then ask how an entire semester on the honor roll at the college level computes if that is indeed the case. Would think having college credits would be a positive towards qualification. They might look at it as fruit from the poisoned tree though I guess.

where was the NCAA when Bobby Boucher passed his exam and showed up later at 1/2 time of the bourbon bowl to lead the greatest comeback in the history of football? I mean come on. dude had Vicky outside threating to kill the testers and he still got a go from the NCAA

twitter @smithey_daniel
head scout BSP scouting specializing in north florida/ southern GA highschool football scouting

That was before UNC cheated. Now they have to punish everyone (else).

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

If this doesn't go plaid, I am leaving TKP.

"And guess what, you've wandered into our school of tuna and we now have a taste of lion." -Allen Gamble, The Other Guys
@Doooougie07

Insert: ByeFelicia.gif

Virginian by Birth, Hokie by Choice

Sees 58 new posts

Oh I guess there is new info.... Nope.

Also is there any Chris Clarke news? Some were suggesting he could be reinstated around the Washington game, but that hasn't happened. Is there a >0% chance of seeing either Nolley or Clarke this season?

no new info?

Well, when I checked various (free) sites this evening, including TKP, I'm seeing pretty clear indications that
1) Nolley is not going to be eligible to play this season
2) He can practice with the team
3) He is doing well academically @VT
4) If #3 continues through the spring he'll be able to play next season
5) His nickname is Chez

TIL Landers goes by Chez. Thanks!

#FreeChez

Regarding your #5, his twitter @ is @thatbooych3z so the Chez makes sense. I guess #1 is new, but #2-4 seems like nothing has changed.

I still don't give a flying fuck about what the NCAA thinks about his test scores vs his GPA. It's absolutely insane that they can even use a discrepancy between the two as a disqualifier unless they have proof a kid cheated. As I said way the hell up thread, some people do well in class and test like shit. Some people test well and are shit in class. PERIOD. END.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used."
- The BoD

I find it fascinating that the NCAA can use "what's the odds that he'd get this score, given his HS GPA" for individual athletes who aren't going to UNC. But when 'only' 50% of UNC students taking the fake courses are MBB and FB players (the odds of which happening are equivalent to winning Powerball twice), they concluded that:

"it was open to all students and no evidence of FB or MBB players being steered towards the fake courses, therefore this is an internal UNC academic issue".

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

If the NCAA already said it can't have the jurisdiction to tell whether or not a kid is eligible once he is on campus, they shouldn't have any jurisdiction telling whether or not a kid is eligible if the school accepted him in the first place. If any school deems a player worthy of entrance, then that should be good enough for the NCAA. Especially when the question is over test scores where even the administrators of the tests themselves don't find any foul play having gone on.

I don't care if the kid is VT, UVa, Richmond, UNC, Duke, or moon bound, if the NCAA is washing its hands of academic matters, stay out of academic matters.

In reality, the quick way to have this all go away is for someone to file a class action lawsuit against the NCAA on behalf of all students who are going through ordeals like this where the grades were good enough for admission, the test scores were good enough, and the NCAA prevented them from taking part anyway. And, judging from how weak they have been in the past, they'll lose that case, too.

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

If any school deems a player worthy of entrance, then that should be good enough for the NCAA.

So why have tests or even grades in the first place?
Can you pay? You're in!!!!
Can you ball out? Screw the grades and taking tests...just show up and we're good!!!!

In reality, there is a clearinghouse for student athletes. Like it or not, that exists. And if he's not cleared by the NCAA, the kid can still enroll in classes and all that...just like he is. That doesn't mean he's cleared to play. There are standards that need to be met to ensure that everyone is playing on an even playing field; and that's what the NCAA is trying to do. Maybe they aren't perfect, but without the attempt at the system it's chaos.

As for the "washing hands of the matter..." at UNC, all of those athletes were cleared thru the clearing house. Once they get into classes, that's on the institution. But to start off, the NCAA clears everyone.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Yeah I'm not buying it. You're basically saying they are just the bouncers, but bouncers that only have jurisdiction outside the bar, and once you're in, you're untouchable.

If you don't have a problem with the guy caught red handed robbing the store blind on the inside, you look like a fucking hypocrite if you are scrutinizing someone on the outside because they look like they might steal at some point.

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Wut?

The NCAA clears them to be elgibile to play in NCAA sanctioned events. You said that if a school allows them to enroll, the NCAA should eff off. My response was that why have the NCAA in the first place. Or standardized tests? Just accept ANYONE into the school (what you were getting at...) and play away.

This is way different than the UNC case. Both involve some sort of academics, but that's where it ends. Stop trying to force that they are the same.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Once they get into classes, that's on the institution. But to start off, the NCAA clears everyone.

Once again, Nope.

Kids need to complete a set number of credits, with an accepted GPA (I'm too lazy to look up either). If they don't then they can't play. This is precisely the reason that players who were eligible for an entire season are suddenly ineligible for bowl games.

In UNC's case, those courses kept kids eligible, according to the NCAA's standards. From an eligibility perspective this isn't just an "institutional matter", unless you determine that the athletes randomly happened across the course and got lucky to get the free A. As I said in a prior comment, the odds of them "lucking" their way into the courses is virtually 0.

And when they are ineligible for the bowl game, its the institution that reports that.
Yes, I know they have to take a minimum number of credits and maintain a certain GPA. Never said they didn't.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

So. The institution reporting vs the testing agency reporting makes it different how? Either way, they are applying simply probability of an outcome to determine a very rare event in one case and completely ignoring it in another. I don't care who does the reporting. They have the facts in hand and applied reasonable logic in one case and chose to completely ignore it in another, even though the second case is far less likely to be a random event.

Who does the reporting has zero impact on what should be done. It should also be noted that they basically applied this same logic to FSU, to vacate wins, rule players ineligible and end their bowl streak.

I think you're mixing convos. I said the institution reports if the kid isn't eligible for the bowl game because of grades/hours/etc. That has nothing to do with a testing agency. The kids aren't taking tests once they get in school unless there is an anomaly that raises the red flag in his initial clearing house passing with the NCAA.

The probability for this red flag is based on how many student athletes across how many sports at how many schools for how many years and the previous statistical analysis. This is different than the UNC case. It is. Even though they both use probability, that doesn't mean they are the same.

Look, I don't like this situation anymore than the next Hokie. And I'm not taking up for the NCAA. This is way different than the UNC case. Don't force it to be the same.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Why does it matter who reports the facts?

Of course, the UNC situation is different than a single person taking the ACT. That said, in BOTH cases, you can apply simple probability estimates to determine if the outcome is due to chance. In the case of Nolley and other's the NCAA is saying that the probability of getting the score, given the GPA is so low that they suspect cheating or some other irregularity, that would make the player ineligible. In the case of the UNC cheating scandal, they can apply the same probability rationale, but chose not to. Why does probability of the event happening matter for the 1st case, but not the 2nd?

The NCAA has determined that the probability of an event can be used to declare a kid ineligible, so why not apply it to the UNC case?

This is my last comment on this topic. If you can't see the irrational behavior by the NCAA and the parallels, by this point, nothing else that I can write will change your mind.

right but id have to assume that nolley has BOTH of those. excepted GPA and credits to get into VT and play sports. he wasn't ineligible because of those matters or else he wouldn't be in VT. hes ineligible because they assume he cheated on the ACT.

The average ACT score composite at Virginia Tech is a 27

In other words, a 25 places you below average, while a 30 will move you up to above average. There's no absolute ACT requirement at Virginia Tech, but they really want to see at least a 25 to have a chance at being considered.

The average GPA at Virginia Tech is 3.65. This makes Virginia Tech Strongly Competitive for GPAs.

With a GPA of 3.65, Virginia Tech requires you to be above average in your high school class. You'll need a mix of A's and B's, with a leaning toward A's. If you took some AP or IB classes, this will help boost your weighted GPA and show your ability to take college classes.

If you're a junior or senior, your GPA is hard to change from this point on. If your GPA is at or below the school average of 3.65, you'll need a higher ACT score to compensate and show that you're prepared to take on college academics. This will help you compete effectively with other applicants.

The acceptance rate at Virginia Tech is 70.1%. In other words, of 100 students who apply, 70.1 are admitted.

This means the school is not selective. As long as you don't fall way below average, you'll likely get in.

Because this school is not selective, you have a great shot at getting in, as long as you don't fall well below average. Aim for a 25 ACT or higher, and you'll almost certainly get an offer of admission. But if you score below this, you may be one of the unlucky few to get rejected.

for context this website had an adjustable scale and if you have a 19 on your ACT and a 2.5 gpa you have a albeit very very slim chance of getting accepted into VT you have a chance and can be. Id have to assume that Nolleys were neither that bad and if he took the test again and got a min of a 19 (if he had a 2.5 GPA) then he can still be accepted into the school and therefor what his actual test score isn't that important the 2nd time around as long as its good enough to get into school amirite?

if you want to play with the #s and read the article i basicallly copied and pasted

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Not at all. They are using historical distributions of ACT scores for a given GPA, to determine that Nolly's is a "rare" event. Based on that one stat: the probability that it was a random event, they are saying the score is too high and there's not way he just "lucked" into the score, so there's strong evidence that he got unusual (illegal) "help" to attain the score.

In the UNC cheating case, they said "well it's 50:50, so FB and MBB players weren't directed towards the fact courses". The prob is that it's not 50:50. The fact that 50% were FB and MBB players were in the courses made is a very rare event if it's assumed to be random, meaning it wasn't random and the premise that the FB and MBB players just happened to enroll is so unlikely that it's equivalent to winning Powerball twice.

Either way, they used simple probably to make one determination and completely ignored simple probability in the other.

Ok. Maybe I'm way out of line here, but given the number of high school students who take the ACT each year, I'm pretty sure that the data set is large enough to be able to easily generate a statistical likelihood of earning a given score based on a GPA. My guess is it is pretty well correlated, and the SAT provides some of the data publicly, although I recognize the SAT and ACT are not the same thing. I have no idea what the actual numbers involved are here, but what if the chance of someone earning the ACT score he did given his GPA was less than 5% and then afterwards his second score was bang average given his GPA? What about if the chances of the first score were 1%? How about 0.1%? I just don't see how this is "insane". We test drug efficacy for use in the human body at 95% confidence levels. Without knowing the actual GPA and ACT scores the first and second time, I can't make a judgement call on if the NCAA is in the right or wrong for flagging this. My guess, based on the lack of information posted on his scores, and how long this has dragged out, it is not as crazy as we are making it out to be. Hoping he does well this year academically and can contribute for us in the future.

TL;DR: Statistics are a thing, and Landers Nolley has most certainly scored in the range of ACT scores that are in the realm of really low probability given his GPA or otherwise this wouldn't be an issue.

And yet his grades were still good enough for admission to VT. I could see this argument if it was only his test score that got him in, but you need the grades and the test scores for admission, and he had both. If the test score rose enough red flags, he wouldn't have been admitted to VT.

The NCAA should be going after schools on the big picture. If you find enough evidence x went on that it became an obvious problem, issue the sanction. Leave the individual players out of it. Who the hell is the NCAA to decide who is good enough to be admitted to a school and play for the team. If the kid is an eligible student per the school at hand, the kid should be allowed to represent that school. Let the NCAA take it up with the schools if they disagree. Not the players, because this current mindset leads to completely innocent kids getting screwed over for nothing more than the thought they might have done something.

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

I think it is important for a non-partial organization to determine at what level someone should be eligible for participation in college athletics for two reasons. (1) Without it, high school athletes would be de-incentivised to do the best they can academically even though the probability of them "making it big" in their sport is incredibly low. The GPA - test score combo helps ensure these kids don't waste their lives banking on something that is incredibly unlikely. For instance, there are 224 draft picks each year in the NFL compared to 1.2 million HS football players (i.e., 0.02% of HS football players make it to NFL). (2) I don't believe for one second that colleges apply the same scrutiny to incoming athletes as they do for the rest of the student body regardless of institution when concerning admission. The mere dollar amount that athletic programs bring into a school presents a conflict of interest right off the bat. That is not to say there aren't incredibly talented and smart athletes at each school, nor implying that they are inferior students on average, but look no farther than Cardale Jones "We ain't come to play school, classes are pointless" tweet to see that there are some athletes participating at the highest level that couldn't give two rips about academics. Without some standard, this mindset would be ingrained even more in a lot of college athletic departments.

Alum07, Do you think that the college admissions team is impartial? If so, then your argument is in direct opposition to mine and we can agree to disagree.

Edit: "are" to "aren't"

I don't believe for one second that colleges apply the same scrutiny to incoming athletes as they do for the rest of the student body regardless of institution when concerning admission

I agree 100%. This seems to be a significant "benefit" given to athletes that isn't given to non-athletes, making it an NCAA violation. We all know that the NCAA will never rule it as such, since a large proportion of athletes need this special consideration.

Fun fact from history: many moons ago, UNC eliminated their mandatory GPA and minimum SAT/ACT requirements, because the school was making national headlines for giving waivers to athletes (Rasheed Wallace was the focus of the outrage, the year before they eliminated the requirements).

How about this-
Make it the responsibility of the institution to admit a student and verify that GPA and test scores meet minimum NCAA eligibility requirements . If a pattern of abuse is found the NCAA can then hammer the school.

'Its easy to grin, when your ship comes in, and you've got the stock market beat,
but the man worthwhile, is the man who can smile, when his shorts are too tight in the seat'

my 2.8 and 1460 weren't good enough to get me into Tech 5...wait, 10...fuck, has it been 15 years? ago. The idea that there's not a different standard for athletes is ludicrous.

Old sigline: I've been cutting back on the drinking.

New Sigline: lol it's football season.

I completely agree. A red flag should simply initiate further investigation, but it should not be a 'guilty until proven innocent' situation. IMO, even if he was asked/required to re-take the ACT, he should be eligible to play until a formal decision is levied.

I agree with the exception that he shouldn't have to take the test again unless there is real evidence. A score that is too good shouldn't trigger the guilty until innocent verdict as you stated - including the start of a trial via taking a 2nd test.

Let me clarify this for you:

'guilty until proven innocent UNC' situation.

So, if I read this right, had he committed to UNC, he'd be playing right now.

Perhaps Duke, too? Because we know they suspend players until they need those players to win games.

Heck any blue blood basketball program he would be playing.

Buzz tonight:

If I thought that Buzz or Landers or Landers' parents or Virginia Tech as an institution or the compliance department had not done the best we could, I would be more frustrated. The things that we can control in this situation ... 1,000 percent we have done over the top the right thing and the best thing.

I read this quote using my Buzz Williams OKG Secret Decoder ring and it said:

Blame the support staff

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

Buzz must read TKP! 1 day and 21 hours ago, I commented that we should consider the possibility that VT's compliance department was not on the ball. Buzz then makes a public comment that he, Landers, his parents, the compliance dept., and VT as an institution have done everything that is within their control 1000% correct.

Thank you Buzz for at least clearing that bit up. Now what are we going to do about the NCAA? If VT has done everything it is responsible for, then it is unacceptable that the NCAA not act with more urgency. So many things need to change at with the NCAA. Perhaps VT should be the flag bearer and challenge the NCAA to start making changes.

--
"It's time to go play Virginia Tech Football longer and harder than anybody else in America!!" -- Justin Fuente
"I put a brick in Sacksburg today." -- Cam Phillips

And another thing...

I think those circulating the Nolley transfer rumors should pull back on the reins a bit. I was at the game last night and sat behind the bench. Just watching/listening to the interaction between Nolley and the team, body language, etc... That dude's a Hokie.

Leonard. Duh.

Agreed. There was never any substantiation for that rumor anyway. Apparently some Illinois insider guy said they will be getting a transfer from the class of 2018 who was a top 100 recruit and a former Illinois target. Some Illinois fans speculated Nolley because he was one of like two guys who fit the criteria.

And as I posted above the Illinois Insider shut it down quickly.

In his opening statement when talking about the 2019 signing class Fuente said, "we got grades yesterday which was good" (this was on the 19th, so it sounds like grades came back on the 18th). I'm assuming this means all students got their grades back, so just wondering if anyone has heard confirmation of the earlier rumors that Nolley will really be on the Dean's List (3.4 gpa if taking 12 hours of classes graded A-F)?

Buzz said the team average was 3.22, highest ever in history of VT MBB.

--
"It's time to go play Virginia Tech Football longer and harder than anybody else in America!!" -- Justin Fuente
"I put a brick in Sacksburg today." -- Cam Phillips

Where. Is. Nolley?!

It's probably just wishful thinking but I think we might get a ruling very soon. The NCAA just ruled Miami's Dewan Hernandez ineligible and they had been waiting all season for a decision just like we are. So my thinking is maybe they are finally wrapping all these cases up. But what's probably going on is they are just spinning a wheel and whatever it lands on, that's what they are working on at that moment and that wheel is mostly just spaces filled with "take the day off"

Based on everything that is public, I really question the decision on Hernandez. Unless the NCAA is privy to proof he took payments that didnt come out in the trial, no other evidence that has been made public shows he did anything wrong. The evidence showed that the agent was trying to convince a family member to take payments on his behalf but never actually proceeded to the payment point.

The Hernandez situation is completely different than Nolley's. One is academic, the other is related to the fraud case. Both cases should be tossed.

Maybe this thread title should be changed to "LANDERS NOLLEY'S ELIGIBILITY ISSUE STILL NOT EXPLAINED"

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

So the morning news here in the 757 just had a snippet leading me to this story. The College Board, which administers the SAT, is under fire for their unwillingness to accept a student's recent score that improved drastically after months of studying. Attorneys are involved here. I found it interesting that one of the first things attorneys were pushing for was a quick decision. As we know, these things tend to drag on....
SAT story

Attorneys are pushing for a quick decision so that her application to FSU isnt denied for insufficient test score, forcing her to wait at least a semester later to start school. At least in this instance it is the company that administered the test calling the score into question which appears to be very different than the NCAA calling Nolleys score into question. It also doesnt sound like it was based on score alone changing which is what Nolley is dealing with.

F*ck dammit.

Waho's suck
Uva swallows

You are going to ruin this whole thread by putting actual news in it.

Now, Cole, when you shift the gear and that little needle on the tach goes into the red and reads 9000 RPMs, that's bad!

Yep. It's done spoilt.

Reel men fish on Wednesdays

Might be wishful thinking, but I really hope Clarke is reinstated for next season. He still has his final year of eligibility and that would be a big boost, considering all the departures we will have.

If rumors are true about his actions, I hope he never wears a VT uniform again.

The smoke around that has cleared quite a bit leaving him in a much better light.

Now, Cole, when you shift the gear and that little needle on the tach goes into the red and reads 9000 RPMs, that's bad!

Then why isn't he playing?

Edit:

See a more expert explanation below.

Now, Cole, when you shift the gear and that little needle on the tach goes into the red and reads 9000 RPMs, that's bad!

I could think of several reasons if he has even been cleared to play yet. Assuming that, 1st would be that he has already missed about 50% of the season so if he can come back next year and play the entire season maybe thats what he prefers. Second could be academic, by extending another year he might be able to get a masters degree. Third could be that if he graduating this year he might decide to pursue a grad transfer somewhere he doesnt have this cloud hanging over him. Fourth could be that even though he has been cleared by the school, Buzz might not want the distraction bringing him back in right now might cause.

Makes sense. Great insight.

That being said, the loss of 5, NAW, Hill, and Outlaw will be somewhat mitigated with the reinstating of Clarke and Nolley being eligible next year.

Never Forget #1 Overall Seed UVA 54, #64 UMBC 74

If rumors were proven to be true, he would have been dismissed altogether by now.

Like a lot of things in the world, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle

VB born, class of '14

Rumors, huh? Rumors'll get after ya.

Reel men fish on Wednesdays

Did we ever get any resolution on this? Did the NCAA ever make a ruling?
I know he's not playing but Did the NCAA ever make a resolution announcement?

This is going to be great for the ACC.

Why do I ever click on this thread? I know there isn't going to be news, but I do it anyway.


They have been busy punishing Missouri more than they punished UNC for less of a violation

Edit: Should be a reply to Egbert above

After all Missouri had a TA do the classwork for 12 players, UNC only had a fake professor teaching a fake class to 3,000+ students who FAKED their own work.

Missouri even self reported this TA.

Every time this thread pops up again, the title gets my hopes up that there's been an explanation to this. We thought there was (Nolley scored high on this ACT and the NCAA doubted it and had him take it again, whereupon he got the same score), but there apparently is more to it. Can we please change the thread title to reflect the fact that there is more to the story that is as yet unexplained?

Thank you.

If you're not sure if my comment warrants a "/s", it probably does.

Rumor has it that he did worse on the retake.

Well, that seals it. We need to start a Rumor Thread right away! Between BBall and football, we have a bunch of 'em swirling around us.

Reel men fish on Wednesdays

I know it's not a good look if that's the case, but it still doesn't prove he cheated.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used."
- The BoD

Didn't say he had. Don't believe he did.

If it sounded like there was any insinuation that you did behind my comment, I apologize. It was only to further illustrate what I've been saying all along. Which is that a discrepancy between his scores and his GPA doesn't mean that he cheated. Because of that, scores shouldn't be weighed so heavily in determining eligibility. If they have no proof that he cheated and he is doing acceptable work at VT, he should be able to play.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used."
- The BoD

he should be able to play
That's where if he meets the grades for this school year, the scores don't matter any more.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Wasn't he on track to make the honor roll for fall semester? If he did then this case should be closed. It proves that he can clearly handle college classes.

I just searched the fall deans list from VT and Nolley was not in it

Doesn't mean he wasn't on track, maybe he sucks at exams.

We're in this mess because he scored too well on an exam.

"Sooner or later, if man is ever to be worthy of his destiny, we must fill our heart with tolerance."
-Stan Lee

"Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing."
-Ron Swanson

"11-0, bro"
-Hunter Carpenter (probably)

I also don't see what making Dean's list has to do with it. If he took Music Appreciation, Drug Education, Physical Health and two in major classes then anyone could do it

Link? As far as I can tell, the fall 2018 deans list is not yet available to the public

Oh that's weird, when I googled it I couldn't find it. Well congrats Blackshear and Bede; they're both on it