Football recruiting budget for every P5 school

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/college/football/2019/08/20...

The largest budget is UGA at 2.6 million the smallest is Wisconsin at 350,000 (numbers rounded). Virginia Tech is at 563,000 second lowest among public schools minus Pitt in the ACC.

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Damn....we need to step it up.

Ehhhh, seems about right to me. We should study Wisky closer, not dream of Clemson and UGA.

Not really, if we could pull in the majority of the blue chips in VA, NC, DC and MD we would be doing all right

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Kind of shocked that Ohio State is not over the $1m mark.

Embedded the table here:

Holy shit Minnesota is really coming off the top rope there, also lol @ Tennessee for dumping 2 milly on a football team that hasn't been relevant since Peyton Manning

hasn't been relevant since Peyton Manning Tee Martin

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Minnesota probably has high travel cost when you look at location of school to location of talent, which is likely why Ohio State can do what they do for less than 1 Million.

Whatever. It was one bad year.

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OSU also has an in house airport and several planes. Same as UF, thus that cost doesn't impact the football recruiting budget.

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Look at that percentage increase for TAMU. Jimbo Fisher gets there and it's "Let's increase recruiting spending by almost 400%!"

Doesn't matter. We are a basketball school

Lower than Georgia Tech, woof

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I'm not sure what GT is spending money on. Every kid but one came from GA, FL, TN and one from AL. Those are all bordering states.

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Well, NC->VT.........one bordering state.........

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I would assume if nothing else for official visits their housing costs are greater what with that urban campus and all.

But that is also just one small line item.

See my comment below...

Leonard. Duh.

I knew Wisconsin always punched above its weight but that's remarkable. I guess their strategy is assume that every in state kid they want grew up wanting to be a Badger then fill in gaps from out of state.

The Orange and Maroon you see, that's fighting on to victory.

Must be nice to have that state pride

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Virginia Tech is at 563,000 lowest among public schools minus Pitt in the ACC.

Maybe it's picking nits between lowest and second-lowest, but can we please at least get the facts straight in the OP? It's not true, and the table clearly shows that NCST's recruiting budget is below VT's.

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

My bad read it wrong when I sorted it.

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VT has gotten away from its most successful formula- get the best athletes in Va. That was good enough to win 10 games. Now apparently, Va. kids are overrated/not good enough, and we need to look to NC and GA but yet Va. kids sign with Penn State, Clemson, ND, Bama, etc. We don't recruit well in the 757 because we can't right now, not because we shouldn't. In state recruiting is cheaper, and stretches that budget further. We need to do whatever it takes to getting back to getting our share of the Top 10 players in Va. You can win with that formula, regardless the talking point/rationale that NC and GA 3 star players are better.

Is it cheaper to recruit kids in 757 than say Greensboro or Charlotte? Not counting out of state scholarship cost those areas are closer to Blacksburg.

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Over the typical 2-3 year cycle recruiting a kid, building relationships, seeing other kids that might have a relative that went to VT, etc, etc, etc. yes it's cheaper to recruit the whole state of Va then the 3 comparable counties in NC. There are a ton more VT legacies in NOVA than in Charlotte. Looking at the big picture, the best years of VT football were when we got most of the top talent in Va. Now we justify getting shut out of the entire top 25 kids by saying the kids in NC and GA are better. That's probably not true, and it's also more expensive.

I'm not sure how money wise it's cheaper to recruit kids farther away. Are you saying the coaches have to make less trips to recruit kids instate?

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Yes. And historically, there are more D1 players in the 757, NOVA and Richmond than the boon docks of NC and Tennessee- although closer to VT by total miles. That's what hamstrings WVU- so few D1 players in their state, so they recruit the heck out of MD, PA, and FL. VT, historically doesn't have that problem- until of course our message doesn't resonate in the 757 and NOVA.

Winston Salem Greensboro and Charlotte as boondocks is a new one for me but ok.

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Cherry pick arguments are cool, I get it. You are missing the big picture here though. WADR

You can't blame him for cherry-picking if you're the one pointing him towards the low-hanging fruit. You'd help your argument a lot more if you didn't include things that seemingly undermine your position.

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

In an article about cost and Money there is nothing else to point out. Cost is everything in this article and discussion. We aren't talking coaching philosophies or relationships. Strictly money. So again how is it cheaper to recruit a kid 6 hours away rather than 3 even if it crosses a state line?

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I think it is most cost effective to go to the areas of virginia as those areas have more D1 recruits than the areas in NC. The trip is also an advertisement for the program. Other kids and high school coaches see the recruiters and word spreads. Was it Saban a few years ago who landed in a helicopter at a school to meet with a recruit? That show was not for one player but get word to spread.

lol I believe Larry Fedora did this for Dax and Dax tweeted that it wasn't even their helicopter but rather a loaner from a friend (still cool, but loses the allure)

Instead of purely thinking of travel costs you could take into account, room and board costs, how long the staff would be staying in an area. There are a lot of variables besides gas money. None of us here know if it is cheaper or not and the argument is moot unless someone has documentation for both areas.

Right. Are we paying mileage to a kid? Flying them out of small airports that have a higher cost? What are the parameters. Simply saying 6 hours away HAS to be more expensive than 3 hours way is a jump to conclusions. If it's only money when he steps on campus...what difference does it make how far they traveled? And if the flight from 6 hours away is cheaper than the 3 hours away with a small airport, and the University is covering that, the assumption is completely wrong. Just applying a distance factor is a bad assumption.

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Have you seen gas prices in North Carolina?

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Key word is "historically." VA high school football ain't what it used to be. And neither is the talent.

This is the disconnect for me. Bama, FSU, ND, Penn State are all signing virginia players. VT not getting someone doesn't mean they aren't talented.

I'm not saying there aren't talented players in VA anymore. There are, and Fuente should absolutely recruit them. But there aren't as many as there used to be and the level of football played in VA isn't as competitive or well resourced as some of the other states where recruiting resources have been focused.

Here's what really happened imo; Beamer built our program up by recruiting talented kids from the recruiting hotbed known as VA, especially the 757. But during that time (the 90s on up to the early 00s), VA was more of a hidden gem as a place for talent. There was a bunch of kids with 5 and 4 star talent but were overlooked and downgraded. VT was able to take advantage of that and nab a lot of those underrated prospects that were 2 or 3 star kids but had 4 and 5 star talent. It was the perfect storm to build a program and we took advantage of it to great success.

We got better. People noticed. They said "wait, there's a lot of talent in VA". Then the big boys start showing up (Bama, OSU, PSU, Florida schools, and later on Clemson). All those underrated kids started getting properly rated and now have A LOT more offers. So that 3 star kid with 5 star talent who would get an offer from us and a few other equal or smaller schools now is a 5 star kid with 5 star talent with an offer from us, Bama, Ohio St, Michigan, Clemson, UGA, etc. That changes things.

TLDR summary; we didn't stop fishing in our favorite fishing hole, more anglers (with all the best equipment) have shown up in our fishing hole

The fishing hole analogy works if the following are also true:

The water level has dropped.

The feedstock is depleted.

There are far fewer citation bass.

Partially true, partially not. We still pulled nationally praised players. Kevin Jones was the highest rated recruit in the country. That's not flying under the radar. That's convincing that player were the best place for him to play football.

Recruit Prosim

I think you missed the part where he conceded parts of North Carolina might be closer, but Georgia and Florida are not

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There has never seemed to be much pride for VA kids to want to stay in state. Even when Tech was at the top of the ACC every year, if a VA kid was getting national attention he was gone. Some of these kids want to get out of the state, its not like UVa has been cleaning up where we have not. Its been FSU and Penn State

Whatever. It was one bad year.

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Does any state other than Texas have 'State Pride' in 2019? It's easier than ever to keep in touch with friends & family from home regardless of distance; can't blame a recruit for wanting to explore some place new.

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Alabama

The options are: Alabama and Auburn.

In 2019 only 5 of 10 top kids went to Bama or Auburn, top 2 went to UGA.

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Getting 5 of the top 10 in your state is a pretty good record these days, but maybe you have better data than I have of which states and programs do better than Alabama and Alabama/Auburn.

Ohio and Louisiana

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Ohio State and LSU.

Sounds correct. None of them are too shabby, and if we could replicate any of those we'd have to be thrilled.

I'm not going to lie to you, our brand just isn't super strong. I grew up playing high school football in the 757 and Boise State was the first tech game I ever sat down and watched my senior year of high school. I didn't have anything against tech, they just weren't really relevant to my surroundings. And I was into watching college football too. I would regularly watch LSU, Alabama, and Florida games.

Virginia people don't understand what other states are like when it comes to college branding. Living in Michigan, damn near every other business is named wolverine this or spartan that. There's billboards and hospitals with their school logos plastered everywhere. People in bars sing their fight songs. Tons of people with no affiliation to the school have allegiances to their sports. My boss was western Michigan grad and he rooted for Michigan to kick the shit out of his own alma mater when they played last year. It's a different world. Meanwhile VT is too busy suing small businesses for using the word hokie and just finally got some billboards up on the major interstates. We have a long way to go as a brand and as a culture.

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98,500 dollars per signed player. This is getting insane.

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Wouldn't that include everyone that they recruited that didn't sign? I'm sure you can pull the numbers of offers made versus signees, but I'm lazy right now. But lets say its 10-1, that's just under $10k per recruit. For multiple visits and travel and accommodations, doesn't sound that crazy.

Right but this is saying it broke down to spending that amount per kid they did sign averaged out.

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Right, I get that. Essentially that's what they invest into the ones that sign. Was just curious what the breakdown was for each person they recruited. I also wonder what the spectrum is for time and money spent on guys that sign versus ones that just get an offer but little follow up.

98,500 dollars per signed player. This is getting insane.

If the ROI is more than $98.5k per player signed, which it likely is, I would argue that it is not insane.

Don't most programs operate at a loss, requiring donations from their fans to break even?

Yes, it's a bit insane.

but you'd have to compare UGA's cost per signee with UGA's revenue, not with the revenue from "most programs".

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Seems to me that this is also about accounting.

It's an indicator, but unless everyone is doing their accounting in a similar way, it may be misleading to some degree.

I would think it's a better indicator within a program, as you're then comparing apples to apples.

Except we are ostensibly talking about non-profit entities competing in amateur pursuits. Which swings the meter back towards insane.

I disagree. Assessing 'ROI of recruiting' has nothing to do with the school being not-for-profit. Athletic departments can still operate (and most of these larger schools) do operate in the black. Yes, revenues are high - which help lead to more significant expenditures, and specifically capital expenditures, which some may deem 'insane,' but spending on recruiting can easily be viewed as an investment.

It's a big money game and these are enterprises doing $200M+ in annual revenue in some cases. If there wasn't a return to be had spending so much recruiting, they wouldn't do it. The focus on 'amateur status' and whether or not players should be compensated is an entirely different conversation.

I see where you're coming from, and don't necessarily disagree (especially the non-profit side, that was off-base on my part). My only point is that spending large sums of money to recruit amateurs can cause some cognitive dissonance. Not interested in arguing the validity of it, but I understand that point of view.

The school spends a lot of money to attract bring the best and brightest students to the school, too.

Recruit Prosim

It's not insane from the perspective of college football programs.

It is insane from the perspective of the general public, who is funding an athletic league, partially under the guise of funding education.

Then again, it's not insane from the perspective that it is of value to society to have spectator sports to give people something to do with their time.

It works. Sort of.

WADR, anyone who mistakes football and men's bball as not-for-profit endeavors has their head planted very firmly in the sand.

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For what it's worth, Virginia Tech had the 26th largest increase in recruiting spending at 59.3%.

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We're pretty much middle of the pack nationwide for % change over that 5 year period. Personally I think that means we ARE stepping it up at an acceptable rate. I also think our program kinda "fits" with those schools around us on the budget chart... NC St, Purdue, UMD, GT, WVU, Iowa... I think that's about where I'd place VT on a national scale in terms of prestige/history/blue-blooded-ness.

Sure I'd like to be keeping pace with UVA at least but, shoot Rutgers is above them and we see how that's working out.

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I'm not sure I understand your point. If it's about our national relevancy, we're going to have to start doing better with the budget bracket we're in before people start dishing out more money.

VT Class of '12 (MSE), MVBone, Go Hokies!

Stating our football contemporaries, lets call it the last 25-30 years, as NCST and Purdue is setting the bar pretty low.

I often see us compared to WVU and Wisconsin as the winningest programs without a title. They're either on our level or well below when it comes to this data.

Can you honestly say that our program is any better than Purdue or NC State now?

VT has 21 players in the NFL right now. Purdue has 19 and NC State has 30. None of us has won anything of consequence in years now and clearly we're in the same boat when it comes to money.

Yeah maybe back in the early 2000's it would have been a silly comparison but you don't come across a stability like Frank and Bud had established very often.

VT Class of '12 (MSE), MVBone, Go Hokies!

Your point is well taken, but we did win the ACC Coastal a few years ago, and the ACC a few times in the 2000's.

And winning the coastal these days is about as special as Wisconsin or Iowa or Northwestern winning the B10 West. Not to disparage the accomplishment, I'm glad we were able to compete to that level that year.

And I'm not saying we're going to stay on the same level as Purdue or NC State, the table shows that we're increasing our budget at a better rate than them, which is why I say I think we're on the right track. But to look at our national relevance, we're barely on the radar right now. Hopefully that changes.

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I don't buy Purdue as a yardstick, but NCST is definitely a closer comparison. Truncate the WL data to the years represented by the financial data (2013-2018) and you get:

Purdue: 22-52, 2 bowls
NCST: 43-34, 5 bowls, 2 seasons finished ranked in top-25
VT: 47-32, 6 bowls, 2 seasons finished ranked in top-25

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

This was confusing to me because there were a bunch of articles written (one was even posted here) about how Clemson spent almost $3m on recruiting in the 18/19 academic year. This list is saying it's like 1.7m

The article I posted from the SC newspaper counted staff salaries and several other reoccurring costs. This looks only at recruiting budget byline.

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Bothers me UNCheat, LOLUVA, Louisville & Rutgers are higher. Travesty, embarrassing & disgraceful.

Why? If we out-recruit those schools, spend less money, win more, and keep the streak going, then that is the opposite of

travesty, embarrassing & disgraceful.

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The first three have all won natty's in a revenue sport in the past decade. Rutgers has B10 money. But I get it, it's annoying.

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These numbers are expenditures, not necessarily budget. I'd be interested to see what our % of spend is, and if we're utilizing 100% of budgeted funds.

A wild guess I would say they run over budget every year since the budget keeps growing.

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the basis being that we keep overspending so please allocate more?

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

I've found that's how budget work a lot. Plus based on what the article talks about budgets are more guidelines than set in stone for recruiting.

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The NCAA defines recruiting costs as including "transportation, lodging and meals for prospective student-athletes and institutional personnel on official and unofficial visits," and the "value of use of institution's own vehicles or airplanes as well as in-kind value of loaned or contributed transportation."

Interesting. With this stipulation, you wouldn't have to be a crime syndicate genius to wash money and send it to recruits. It would be so easy.

Leonard. Duh.

I am sure those SEC vehicles and airplanes really cost $20,000 per use, don't be so pessimistic Leonard!

Whatever. It was one bad year.

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Who wants to build a church in VA so we can play the dirty recruiting game, I've heard its fun. /S

yes this is sadly what happens. $ to Church as a "donation"---> Church $ to Family after it's been "cleaned"

Is this really a thing?

I believe it is the popular conspiracy surrounding Clemson.

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If JUGS is saying it, then yes, it's really a thing.

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tax deductible!

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I literally told one of my buddies the other day after I watched the Clemson documentary on ACCN about the "All In" foundation that it reeked of reverse money laundering (clean money obtained legally and used discreetly for illegal purposes). I'm starting to see right through their little phony act.

So your saying Falwell and Liberty to the SEC?

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I did a study on spending money (Adjusted for Inflation) and winning in P5 football over a 10 year period of time. There was a direct correlation to winning and spending more money. I will embed the table a little later.

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Important
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I did a study on spending money (Adjusted for Inflation) and winning in P5 football over a 0 year period of time. There was a direct correlation to winning and spending more money. I will embed the table a little later.

So how do you compare schools when they're all spending infinite dollars per year over this period?

Warning: this post occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and advanced mathematics (which may be unsuitable for liberal-arts majors)..

Whoops sorry. It was supposed to be 10.

What's
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Now