So national scandal and paying recruits really hurt Louisville

They are ranked #1 in the country less than 2 years later. LOL. It amazes me. If Buzz Williams went down in flames at VT and we were named in the Adidas scandal, we wouldn't win 15 games for 15 years after that. It's surreal. Similar to Penn State. - A couple lean years after their long time DC was exposed for raping children in the locker room- oh ho hum, back in the Top 10 every year. Signed jaded VT alum and Fan

DISCLAIMER: Forum topics may not have been written or edited by The Key Play staff.

Comments

One word: Money

There is too much money to be made which is why the NCAA is complete bullshit when it comes to sanctions against schools. They learned there lesson with the SMU death penalty. They will slap some hands here or there but the truth is they really don't want to stop the flow of billions of dollars that top sports teams generate.

Its the sad truth, but this is the world we live in.

Basketball in the state of Kentucky- like football in Alabama. Not only are the rich VERY generous, but the folks who don't have much are also very generous. A ton of "subway alumni" like Notre Dame had for football back in the day.

Five star get after it 100 percent Juice Key-Playing. MAN

To expand even more on this since redistricting just came out today for HS football in Texas the money spent here and the politics for HIGH SCHOOL sports is insane. Somehow, Highland Park HS (Highland Park is just south of University Park/SMU in Dallas) came up just 11 students shy of getting bumped up to 6A. They currently dominate 5A and would likely get dominated if they were forced up to 6A and somehow just barely managed to come under the limit to stay in 5A. Coincidence?

And then there is the case of Allen High School. There is only one high school in Allen, which is ridiculous considering the size of the county. Why only 1 High School? So they can field a better football team. This is no joke. Forget about academics and how students might be served better in a smaller school, the adults in the room only care about the football team. Plano used to dominate when it was only one high shcool but has done much worse since they have split into two high schools.

To prove my point, I give you the 60 million dollar Allen High School football stadium...

Is this the same stadium that had to be abandoned because the concrete was not installed and cured properly?

TKPhi Damn Proud
BSME 2009

Yep, cracking led to additional 10 million in repairs, although the construction company was forced to to cover the cost.

Edit: They also had to play the entire 2014 season on the road..... and still went undefeated and won the state title.

I always enjoy flying into Dallas Love and just marvelling at the high school stadiums as we land. You can see Jerry World from an obnoxiously far distance too. Dallas doesn't mess around with their football. If only they could do something about cleaning up their downtown district...

-Stick it in

Beyond that the conferences and NCAA have 0.0% interest in facing the legal battles if they tried to ban a school from say, even just being on TV, if the rights to that schools games had already been sold.

Doubly so when its just two companies in ESPN and Fox that control so much of the market.

To their credit Louisville did fire their hall of fame basketball coach over the scandal. Even when he said he knew nothing about it. They said, too many scandals under your watch even if you knew nothing. It was allowed in the environment you built.

also AD Tom Jurich

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

They fired their AD too. They really cleaned house and it's basically a completely different administration.

Plus, all the institutional advantages that Louisville had didn't go away overnight, even if there were sanctions - they still have top notch facilities for basketball, great fan support, and history on their side.

Not sure sanctions would have made much of a difference, especially since they hired a really good coach in Chris Mack to replace Pitino.

EDIT: gobble gobble beat me to it.

I personally don't see why this would change sanctions. If Enron fired their CEO would they still be good to keep running? Exaggeration, but the point is that it didn't just happen under the AD's watch or the coach's watch, it happened under the school's watch. The school, in addition to everybody employed in the chain from the president to the coaches, provided and environment for this to happen and the school should have sanctions.

804

And who suffers in that situation? The student-athletes, the fans, and the student body. Not the people who did wrong.

Enron ruined peoples lives. Louisville did some shady things to win more basketball games. The coach lost his job and the AD was sent packing too. I'm not sure what else was supposed to be done.

Penn State ruined a few lives, as I recall, but that was their argument.

Paterno cut a few corners to benefit the program he cared about. That was the incentive to overlook the things he overlooked.

I'm not touching the PSU situation with a 10 ft. pole. I was talking specifically about Louisville.

a wise decision

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Sure, but if you're going to use the argument "what about the players and students", you have to consider the ramifications.

As we've seen, this justification can't be a free pass for major infractions. It leads to a bad result.

This is the definition of a straw man argument. The post is about Louisville. I'm talking about Louisville. DC slipped in the PSU line just to stir the pot.

If you can't appreciate the difference in a scandal involving players getting paid money and what happened at PSU, I don't know what to tell you.

The people implicated in that scandal are no longer at Louisville. You can put more sanctions on them but then you're only taking away scholarship opportunities from kids who had nothing to do with this scandal. You're taking a way a fun experience for Louisville fans who had nothing to do with the scandal. You may also be impacting the people who operate the concessions stands, bars, and restaurants around the arena who rely on the basketball season for their income. This has always been an argument about how the NCAA hands out sanctions.

Oh and guess what, they're probably still paying their players. And so is Duke, and so is UNC, and you know what...we probably are too.

Yea. Sliding a few dollars to kids under the table and even giving out grades for 30 years are still nothing when it comes to having knowledge of and facilitating sexual abuse of minors. PSU should be buried under the NCAA for eternity. Not just Sandusky but any administrators that could have been proven 1% knowledge should join him in prison. The fact that they still have fans is baffling to me. My opinion is if they are totally fine with what happened to those young men all for the sake of football. If that happened at VT I would burn all my VT gear and never watch another game.

It is a natural gift I posess to create friction in sensitive situations.

I would go ahead and add Baylor to this as well

Under the logic you're attempting to use, the next generation of students, and all the fans are always the fall guy for any crime committed under a program.

Doesn't work for Louisville, doesn't work for Penn State, doesn't work for Baylor, doesn't work for UNC, doesn't ever work.

If you commit infractions to build a program, the program gets the rewards, and also pays the cost.

It's those who remain behind who are always punished and it's been that way for as long as I can remember. It's the way the NCAA works because they have no authority to actually punish those who did wrong other than to ensure they're fired. It's one of the many reasons the NCAA is crap.

Again, take PSU and Baylor out of this. Those situations involve something way different than players getting paid. Stop bringing them up because they are not this situation and never will be.

I am telling you that every school, at least in major D1 conferences, is paying its players someway somehow. Louisville could get busted again tomorrow and they'd still keep paying the players. They have to because if not they will fall behind the Kentuckys, Dukes, and UNCs of the world. It's the reality we are in.

The reaction of some that seems to think schools caught in this act should be given the death penalty for it is laughable to me. Everyone is doing it. Just don't be stupid enough to get caught. The difference in Lousiville getting caught and VT getting caught and how quickly we'd come back from that has nothing to do with how severe the NCAA penalty would be at face value, it's got everything to do with the resources and support Lousivlle has behind them to rebound from it.

The NCAA is not as biased to bluebloods as everyone thinks. It's just that the same sanctions applied to VT and Louisville in basketball would have vastly different implications. Maybe you can say the NCAA should be able to adjust for this, but if you know them you know that's way above their competence.

All I'm saying is that the argument that applying sanctions to programs "punishes the wrong people" is the wrong way to look at NCAA sanctions.

There has to be some consequence to a program. Otherwise, what's the incentive to follow any rules at all?

I know you aren't discussing Penn State, but they even managed to get Paternos wins officially re-instated, and the money they were fined ended up staying in their state. They're an extreme example of how money changes outcomes. The NCAAs goal is not to upset the apple cart. Could also have used UNC as an example.

I have no problem with the NCAA sanctioning programs who break the rules.

Forfeit of the games they won, scholarship restrictions, and post season ban

Recruit Prosim

So I'm not sure if this is a rule or not but when programs do get sanctions the kids left should automatically be able to transfer to any other school and play immediately. I am all for nailing programs that break the rules like Louisville did as long as this is the case. That way the student athletes don't really suffer because they can continue their careers elsewhere unimpeded.

I believe in most cases they have been, PSU and USC scandals allowed that. But that still kind of sucks for some one that wanted top play for a certain school all their lives. The still can, but it might put a damper on their dream.

More reason for them to encourage the school they love not to cheat.

I don't remember who said it, but "Punishing a program by forfeiting games or championships they've already won is like punishing your kids by telling them they're not allowed to remember the trip they took to Disneyworld last year."

"Our job as coaches is to influence young people's lives for the better in terms of fundamental skills, work ethic, and doing the right thing. Every now and again, a player actually has that effect on the coaching staff." Justin Fuente on Sam Rogers

More like taking away the trophy they won by cheating, or the money they got by stealing.

Sure they have the memory of stealing it. But they don't get to keep the stuff they stole.

Paterno shouldn't get to keep the wins he got by overlooking Sandusky. His statue shouldn't be in the courtyard (and it's not) - but it should be melted down and made into a monument to victims, and should go where his statue was, as a reminder.

I agree the people that didn't do wrong would suffer, but there need to be consequences for programs like this. As mentioned below, if all a school needs to do is fire a coach when they get caught I don't think that is enough of a reason for schools to put in preventative measures to prevent these things from happening.

804

The school, in addition to everybody employed in the chain from the president to the coaches, provided and environment for this to happen and the school should have sanctions.

Sorry to be thick, but what does "the school" mean in this context? The buildings? The faculty? The students?

Assuming (and this may not be true) every human being who made a decision that contributed to the violations got fired, why should anyone (or anything) else be punished for their actions?

If there were individual decision-makers who made decisions contributing to the violations who were not disciplined, and you said "this person should also be sanctioned," I would agree. But I don't even know what it means to argue "the school" should be punished separately from the individual decision-makers.

"Our job as coaches is to influence young people's lives for the better in terms of fundamental skills, work ethic, and doing the right thing. Every now and again, a player actually has that effect on the coaching staff." Justin Fuente on Sam Rogers

I mean that as a general statement that it goes beyond the athletic department and team. I am not suggesting firing other people or doing anything outside of athletics. What I am saying is that the school and their boosters/partners/etc. gained from the situation and even if they weren't directly involved, sanctions could potentially help promote more proactive measures to prevent these things in the future.

Coaches are easy enough to find for top tier programs like this so if all they need to do is fire a coach when they get caught every 10-15 years, what is to stop them from looking the other way when this happens again?

804

To be honest the school is more than the "school" so to speak. The boosters, students, and alumni are all part of it.

Schools have culture that transcends administration. I love going to bowl games and partying with fellow Hokies because we're all generous and just fun to hang with. It would take a long time to drown out that positive culture just as it would take a long time drown out a negative one.

Following up, then: (Not with you, Frederick, but with the statement, "The school, in addition to everybody employed in the chain from the president to the coaches, provided and environment for this to happen and the school should have sanctions.")

If a member of the coaching staff violates an NCAA rule, should the good folks in Lot 18 be punished? I work with a proud alumnus of one of the other schools mentioned in this thread. When the news of their scandal broke he was absolutely livid. Couldn't believe such things were allowed to happen at his alma mater. He is part of "the school" by this definition, and was 100% opposed to the activity in question. Why should he be punished? Say 80% of the school's alumni are similarly disappointed with the coaches who broke the rules. Why should they be punished?

"Our job as coaches is to influence young people's lives for the better in terms of fundamental skills, work ethic, and doing the right thing. Every now and again, a player actually has that effect on the coaching staff." Justin Fuente on Sam Rogers

I think we need to separate who is to blame and who should be "punished". Obviously most fans have absolutely nothing to do with things like this. The problem is that if they aren't punished in some way there is no incentive to prevent these things in the future. If the school (again, generalizing and including boosters/fans/etc.) were to get punished for supporting a program that did something like this even if they weren't directly involved, I can guarantee they would be more proactive about making sure it never happens again.

Also keep in mind that we're talking about athletics. As important as these programs are for lots of people, in general the further you are away from the situation the less you would be impacted and the less chance you had any influence on it. If I am a casual fan that goes to a game or two then I most likely had absolutely nothing to do with the scandal and I probably had no way of preventing it but I would also be hurt the least by sanctions. If I am a high ranking booster then I probably have more influence over the program and I would probably be more affected by sanctions.

Again, I think that more people have influence over these things and the environment that is created that allows for this than most people give credit. Even if somebody had nothing to do with the scandal doesn't mean they couldn't have done something (big or small) to prevent it.

804

If the school (again, generalizing and including boosters/fans/etc.) were to get punished for supporting a program that did something like this even if they weren't directly involved, I can guarantee they would be more proactive about making sure it never happens again.

As far as paying players go, no they wouldn't. Louisville's main competition is Kentucky and the other top ACC programs. All of whom are paying players. The option of Louisville not also paying players is likely worse than any sanctions the NCAA could drop on them.

If I am a casual fan that goes to a game or two then I most likely had absolutely nothing to do with the scandal and I probably had no way of preventing it but I would also be hurt the least by sanctions. If I am a high ranking booster then I probably have more influence over the program and I would probably be more affected by sanctions.

There is a wide range of fans in between those two things. Plenty of people who have season tickets or go to many home games who don't contribute significant money to the program or are in any way involved in the decision making. You're also forgetting those local businesses that likely rely on patronage from fans attending games for their business.

To be clear, I think reform is needed and that the NCAA is about as useful as a space heater in the Bahamas. I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think the sanctions route is it.

The fans collectively DO have an influence.

If Enron fired their CEO would they still be good to keep running?

I mean... yes. Enron didn't fold because the government came in and shut them down; Enron folded because they had no money and went bankrupt. If it would've been possible for Enron to stay in business, then the SEC would've punished the decision makers, the board would've found replacements, and the share/stakeholders would've survived.

The latter scenario is basically what happened at Louisville - the board replaced the AD and the coaching staff, and the shareholders (fans) and stakeholders (players) continued on.

It's an interesting philosophical dilemma - how much blame, if any, should shareholders (or fans) receive for pressuring the business (college sports team) to perform?

Twitter me

To their credit Louisville did fire their hall of fame basketball coach vampire over the scandal.

FTFY

VT Marketing Class of 2009
Current Roanoke-Hokie
Go Hokies!

If there's any consolation, Nosferatu is coaching in Greece and surfaces every couple of months begging for a job anywhere stateside.

That was kind of my point up above as well. The man is a hall of fame coach who nobody in the US will employ. I imagine he will be blackballed for at least another year or two before somebody will be desperate enough to hire him.

They rebounded quickly...

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Real layup of a comment

Sort of a slam dunk, but it was more or less assisted by the OP...call it an alley oop.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Society does not give a damn.

Edit: you didn't mention baylor!

"Hey Bud, you wont have to hold the opponent to 17 points anymore."

you didn't mention baylor!

Baylor was the worst scandal in college sports history IMO. The paying players thing isn't making anyone's life worse. The point shaving scandals hit people's bank accounts, but that's kind of an inherent risk of sports gambling. The Hugh Freeze cheating scandal is a personal problem that doesn't really impact anyone outside of his family. The UNC scandal was doing a disservice to the current student athletes, but no innocent lives were damaged. PSU was one monster doing terrible things, and a handful of people refusing to/unable to accept reality. The Baylor scandal was a culture of rape being accepted, purely to prevent the perpetrators from missing a game. On top of that, you have the school literally blaming the victims for what happened to them.

The solution is pretty simple in my mind - NCAA needs to be more willing to use the show-cause penalty on both coaches and administrators. You think Ian McCaw is getting the AD job at Liberty if the NCAA tells Liberty they cannot compete in NCAA sanctioned events if they hire McCaw? Probably not. Will coaches be willing to risk their whole career by hiding wrong doing? Will assistants be okay taking this risk if they find something?

Twitter me

I fail to see how "University gets caught paying players" would hurt a schools ability to lure recruits.

I posted this in a reply to a comment string, but for whatever it's worth to anyone else here; Louisville has yet to hear what their sanctions are for the Adidas scandal.

Lexington Herald Leader Article

So yeah they are having a good year but they haven't had any sanctions hit them yet for this.