OT: The Last Dance

That was awesome.

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As a kid I always thought Jordan was a giant asshole.

Now as an adult, I watched it and think he is an even bigger asshole than my young mind could imagine

I always knew he was an asshole. And was a huge fan despite that fact. For whatever reason, when Kobe came along, I knew he was an asshole too but wasn't as big a fan. No idea why. I didn't really appreciate Kobe for what he was until he retired and then especially after the accident. RIP.

Does anyone know if this will be available to view streaming later on somewhere?

Its the LA aspect added to the aura of Kobe. People just fucking hate the Lakers, and for good reasons.

King Alum of the House Hokie, the First of His Name, Khal of the Turkey Legs, The rightful Heir to the Big Board, the Unbanned, Breaker of Trolls and Father of Gritty

All alpha top athletes are assholes. All of them. You need that trait to get to that level. Once those players are past their primes, they mellow out a bit, but MJ still has a giant chip on his shoulder.

All alpha top athletes are assholes. All of them. You need that trait to get to that level.

While I understand why most of us have that impression, I don't know if that is necessarily true.

Do you think Mahomes is an asshole? Maybe he is privately, but it seems unlikely. The guy has been NFL MVP and Super Bowl MVP in consecutive season.

Do you think Mike Trout is an asshole? Guy is one of the best baseball players of all time.

Hell, I am not a Lebron fan, but he isn't an asshole either.

Jordan is a giant asshole, he was also amazing at basketball. I don't think being awful to people is a prerequisite to being at the top of your game.

I think generationally it's changing. And your examples prove it.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Generationally or otherwise, I don't think its ever been true that you HAVE to be an asshole to reach the top. It's just that so many of the elite are also assholes.

I can't stand the Washington Capitals (Flyers would be have won the Cup this season!), but Ovechkin is the greatest goal scorer of all time IMO. He doesn't seem like an asshole either.

I feel bad for Jordan, honestly. One of the (if not the) greatest at his profession, and he is going to live the rest of his life as a bitter bitter man

I'm not sure I'd label him as bitter. Intense, committed, focused, but not sure about bitter.

And no, you don't have to be. You didn't have to be either, but if you look at the top top top tier from the 60's-80's, they have a distinct grittiness to them. I guess it came with the territory, whether it was the need to compete and win, the media around them, the fans, the leadership in the organization, all of it, none of it, but they all were bristly.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Intense, committed, and focused is one thing. But Jordan's HOF speech has somewhat convinced me that the guy will just have resentments that he is never able to let go. Maybe that is an unfair assessment, but I just can not imagine a scenario at this point where that opinion changes.

Was Magic an asshole?

Recruit Prosim

Come on man. I never said every successful athlete. Or even every successful basketball player. I'm not going player by player thru this. I said generally generationally. For that matter, Magic could prove what I said since he's one of a very small few that weren't.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal. Both top notch dudes on and off the court.

VT '10 #AllMaroonEverything

I'm not a tennis fan in the least, but I think Federer is awesome. He and Nadal have every excuse in the book to be jerks and get a pass for it, and they arn't.

I agree with you but I can't say I'm surprised by dc's perspective- and many people share that same sentiment.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

That's literally the first thing I said

I think part of it is that the people at the top of the game who are assholes are the ones who put themselves out there more, so their assholishness is way more apparent, whereas the guys at the top who aren't assholes are also more private and seem to tend to not like being in the media spotlight, so you don't hear about them. This gives the impression that all people at the top are assholes.

In his Hall of Fame induction speech, he still held on to the slight he felt against his high school coach who cut him in his first year and kept another player instead. Jordan used the other player's name as his alias at hotels when he traveled during his career.

HOF speech

David Robinson and Jordan inducted to the Hall of Fame

The Admiral spent the entirety of his speech thanking people. When he spoke of his family, he gushed over his three boys, calling them his best friends, encouraging them to reach their own goals.

When Jordan, who is divorced from his longtime wife Juanita, brought up his three children, he told them he felt sorry for them, because of the tall shadow they have to live with. His oldest son, Jeffrey, seated next to a very pretty girlfriend of his father's, recently quit the basketball team at Illinois to focus on his studies. Marcus Jordan is in his freshman year at Central Florida, where he too will play. Needless to say, they know they'll forever be second-class to their pop. How could anyone live up to his standards?

Holding up David Robinson to Michael Jordan is the best comparison I can think of to highlight how much of a dick Jordan has always been.

Warning: this post occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and advanced mathematics (which may be unsuitable for liberal-arts majors)..

Kerr hated him. He said Jordan would punch players in practice and wouldn't allow guys he didn't like certain seats on the plane. He treated Kukoc like shit relentlessly.

Tweaking the words of Cardale, Michael wasn't there to play friendship.
And he got great performances out of them by doing what he did. Not saying that was the only route. Not saying they wouldn't have won if he didn't. But he did. And they did. They have 6 titles in 8 years.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Bulls fan here. While I loved those teams as a kid, it was disappointing to find out as an adult that they were lead by a pretty shitty human being.

Did they talk about the secret deal he had with Stern to go play beisbol for two years instead of a public suspension for gambling on games? 🤔😁 (by far my favorite sports conspiracy theory)

I can imagine no more rewarding a career. And any man who may be asked in this century what he did to make his life worthwhile, I think can respond with a good deal of pride and satisfaction:
“I served in the United States Navy"

KCCO

Agreed, this I 100% better than the mark envelope for Ewing.

Or how his dad was randomly changing his tire on the road and was murdered in cold blood for no reason.

His dad actually pulled over for a nap...

...in a county in NC that was notorious for drug traffic, and the local sheriff had his hands all up in that cookie jar.

"Where there's smoke, there's probably fire" gets thrown out the window on that. That shit was Mount Vesuvius from the get-go.

Leonard. Duh.

When our beloved stars are labeled as ultra competitive, obsessive, killer, etc., they are worshipped. The work life balance is opposite of what is typically viewed as ideal in any other profession. It is almost required to reach the highest level of competitive sport even though I would not want my children viewing them as role models. It is a very interesting dynamic. It takes such sacrifice to reach the pinnacle, I'm not sure I would want to be there.

"You don't stare into a rearview mirror"

He also has a bajillion dollars and his name and legacy are eternal... and he retired for good at 40?

Recruit Prosim

They couldn't have made Jerry Krause look worse. LOL. I guess they don't care if they piss him off.

I think it's just clear the players and Jackson hated him. He played the role of bad guy, underpaying and under appreciating them. Sort of how everyone on the 92 Dream Team hated Thomas and kept him off.

It is pretty amazing to compare the NBA of today to Jordan's era. There is no GM today that would preemptively break up a dynasty. You keep that going as long as you can.

The players have much more power today. LeBron IS the GM of his teams. The NBA GM is meaningless now - the stars form their own super teams and the rest are just fighting to make the playoffs.

Absolutely they do, because the players figured out that the NBA is a player-driven league.

I was more referring to Krause preemptively breaking up the Bulls because he was a petty man who couldn't stand that he didn't get enough credit for the Bulls' dynasty.

Players are more empowered now, sure. But I think it makes role of GM even more important in building the right team around the players (identifying and acquiring the right role players for the right price), in skillfully being able to maneuver cap space and draft picks without getting hard-capped, understanding the short-, medium-, and long-term ramifications of your moves, etc etc. Look at what Masai Ujiri did with Toronto and it won them a championship and they're still competitive in the East after having lost Kawhi in free agency. GM isn't just selling your team as a free agency destination anymore -- it's best positioning yourself to exploit opportunities.

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

Jerry Krause has his own mirror. He made his own bed.
Also it's 10 episodes. Far from over.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Amazing start to the documentary, the two hours flew by last night. And damn Pippin was doing anything he can to make some extra cash.

Warning: this post occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and advanced mathematics (which may be unsuitable for liberal-arts majors)..

This is hilarious, disturbing, and yet also made me kinda hungry. 10/10

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

Joe google that company and watch their commercials currently they are just as "good". The catering one is my favorite.

https://youtu.be/lTm5fkqGdZk

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

Anybody remember the God-awful commercials from the pizza place in Blacksburg? Roni's I think where the guy delivers the pizza to the people tubing on the new river. Or the one where they are watching TV and the TV is turned so the screen is not facing the people in the commercial.

Recovering scientist working in business consulting

You can keep Jordan. To me the greatest in basketball are Bill Russell and Larry Bird.

As of 2020, Bird is the only person in NBA history to be named Rookie of the Year, Most Valuable Player, NBA Finals MVP, All-Star MVP, Coach of the Year, and Executive of the Year.

When he started coaching, he said he was going to take the Pacers!!! to the championship in less than five years. He did it in year 3.

(insert Jordan gif of Please Stop)

Bird is all-time, but he ain't Jordan.

And Bill Russell was a great player on a great team, but he's not even the best center of all time. Abdul-Jabbar, Chamberlain and Olajuwon are all better.

As I said, my opinion and I hold to it. Bird > Jordan. Jordan was a ball hog and not a team player. Jordan tried to break Chamberlain's record an couldn't do it. (Of course they changed the rules after Wilt's 100 point game).

You misspelled Magic

I can imagine no more rewarding a career. And any man who may be asked in this century what he did to make his life worthwhile, I think can respond with a good deal of pride and satisfaction:
“I served in the United States Navy"

KCCO

Magic is the most fun player of all time and maybe the best Laker, but not best player of all time.

I watched but the basketball part only partially interested me. I went down rabbit holes about Jordan's Chicago area home being on the market still from 2012.

Then I went looking for that simple practice facility and found it was 45 minutes away not even in Chicago from the arena.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

I have essentially no interest in basketball ... and even less interest in Michael Jordan. But I have been perplexed for years as to why people get houses that have more bathrooms then bedrooms. Okay, maybe you could have 1 downstairs for visitors and 3 upstairs for 3 bedrooms. But 19 for 9? Does he have a serious prostate problem or what?

Recovering scientist working in business consulting

Even adding in a bathroom for the gym and another for the pool area which to me make sense it's still ALOT.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

From what I've seen most private homes have 1 bathroom per 1000 square feet of living space. Not a hard and fast rule of course but not far off. My house is 3000 sq ft and has 2 full and one half bath. That ratio is about the same as Dover Hall in Manakin-Sabot which is 32,000 square feet and I believe had 30 bathrooms.(and a 2.5 acre septic field!)

From the 2018 VT-uva game-"This is when LEGENDS are made!"

Those bathrooms aren't for the people living there. Places that large are designed around entertaining as much as living. The extra bathrooms are for when you're having large amounts of people over and anywhere in the house there is an available restroom that doesn't require going up/downstairs or through a bedroom.

and for the household staff

Because there are roughly 45 days of decent weather in Chicago per year....

If anything, the first 2 hours just reminded me why I always liked Scottie Pippen more than Jordan.

Just finished watching. Great series!

I kind of get a kick out of folks who didn't get to watch Jordan on the NBA on NBC every Sunday in the winter and spring talking about how current players would handle them. While they may have more measurable or refined skills versus the typical player of the era, consistently the current players show their inability to cope with adversity. Kobe demanded the ball on occasion to the determine of winning. LeBron gave it up to the detriment of winning. Other "the next ones" have all had limitations to their game that Jordan would exploit.

I wanted Jordan to win initially, because I detested the Pistons as a kid. But, once he started winning and I started rooting for the Knicks and the Sonics, I wanted to see him get knocked off.

One sport I was even more passionate about was tennis. I loved Andre Agassi and Jim Courrier. I hated Pete Sampras. How could anyone hate Pete Sampras you may ask? Well, like Jordan, if my guy played his very best, Sampras had to have a D/C game kind of day to have a chance. Jordan was the same way. He didn't have to be at his best, and he would still find a way to beat you. If that meant scoring the ball, he would do it. If that meant facilitating through the triangle, he did it. If it meant playing defense or verbally intimidating you, he did it. All that mattered was the W, and that is a lost trait today.

Five star get after it 100 percent Juice Key-Playing. MAN

Jordan had issues too, they don't really go over it but in one of those series against the Pacers the last play was designed for Kukoc, who was like 11/13 shooting, like 30 points, and the only reason the Bulls were in the game, and Jordan stole the pass from him and missed the shot and lost the game.

Like you said in another thread, the Bulls had Kukoc be the guy not Scottie. Kukoc was a fantastic player that was winning championships as the 3rd/4th guy even though he'd be #1 on so many of the other teams at the time. The Bulls were very talented at every position. And they changed their personal based on who they were playing much better than most of the teams (see Rodman not guarding Malone because he couldn't). Harper was great at running the triangle. That was a very talent team all around. It wasn't just Jordan's skill, it was that the team was stacked.