Starting a new thread for this topic since we're closing in on 900 comments. Feel free to continue the conversation on here. Shane Beamer has been hired by South Carolina for all who are unaware, so no need to bring up his name on here as a replacement.
Into the single digits on the countdown to the big day.
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Thanks Brad
Welker
I don't have unsubstantiated affection for Fuente. I don't particularly care for Fuente, but I also understand that I didn't particularly care for Beamer either...he seemed downright clueless those last 10 years, his offensive gameplans were non-existant, and he had trouble recruiting outside of one region.
But, what I can say about Fuente is that he seems like he knows the game, is committed to the university, and is willing to learn from mistakes (albeit slowly). My concern is that those calling for the axe are living in some dream world where a head coach comes into a situation that is in a nosedive and expects an overnight recovery to the glory days. Those glory days ('99-'10-ish) were the result of 15-20 years of learning and growing, and followed by an inability to evolve with the game.
If you were really thought that Fuente would come in (given VT's budget/geography/culture) and start winning 10+ every year, then the jokes on you. VT is about commitment, sustainability, and constant improvement. This is not a place where you can purchase nattys. Don't fire Fuente until he proves his inability to reflect and grow. If you can't handle that, find another hobby for Saturdays.
Our recruiting ratings have been falling over recent years, with back to back bottom 10 ranked classes in the Power 5.
We've given him 5 years, and we aren't seeing any signs of improvement. Our QBs can't throw, we take far too many dumb penalties, we routinely have big games completely upended by turnovers, and our clock management skills are literally becoming a national punchline. And then, on top of all this, he's one of the worst recruiters at our level of the sport.
He's already proven he's in over his head. The mistake is keeping him here to just continue to hump the doorknob.
I can't believe there isn't a decent doorknob humping gif out there!
You are right, our recruiting blows. But, he has made changes to the recruiting...he hired 2x NFL dudes on the DL, his new DC has some recruiting acumen, and I think there's another prior VT guy that is running the recruiting department. He has made changes. Recruiting doesn't change in 0.5 years. If you don't think those changes will work, fine, but he has recognized it and made decisions.
I'm also with you on the QB situation. Our QBs throw about as well as any comparable school's do, but ours are better athletes and that shows up on tape. There's like 5 recruits per year that can throw at the high-end P5 level....good luck with those guys. HH's throwing ability is not the reason we are 4-6 or whatever, its only part of the problem...and I think Fuente gets that.
Every college coach is a national punchline for clock management when you have hindsight. Fuente's clock management is not great, but it's not a national punchline. He has no crystal ball, and there's a half-legit reason for all of his clock dealings. Also not the reason he's 4-6.
He's 4-6 because his defense is garbage, and there's about 69 reasons why it's garbage...and none of them are due solely to Fuente's incompetence. And if you think firing him and overhauling the entire staff is going to somehow attract Lincoln Riley-level talent, then you're crazy. VT is a tough place to compete, this isn't 1994 where you're the only guy recruiting a once-in-a-generation talent. If we win, it is because we put in the time and effort over a 15-20 year period.
If you've got a relevant guy with a sound system, is willing to learn over the years, and doesn't sacrifice the president's trust, then I suggest you hang on to him and ride it out.
Found CJF burner. You aren't fooling us, did you see how fast we took down Keith Friedman today?
I appreciate the differing perspective. This is a 1 or 2 loss team if the defense is good, and many folks are singing a very different tune, but at the end of the day, the skeletons would still be hiding in the closet: poor recruiting, poor game planning, the Mike London-esk ability to get out coached every single 2nd half, and the lack of openness in the program.
In many ways, I believe Fuente is learning how to run a major program on the fly, though to your last point, if he came out on Dec. 16th and said we're hiring a stud OC that is also a fantastic recruiter, AND he said he was going to open up the program to the fans and media, I could get behind that.
It's still wildly problematic though for him to be learning how to do his job, in year five. Fuente is who he is - and hasn't shown much propensity to change. I agree with you that if Fuente did that, he could make up lost ground - but the fact that that is absolutely required at this point, and that even doing so wouldn't win back a large portion of the fan base...well, the writing is on the wall.
I'll be gobsmacked if he is still here come Christmas. But I worry more each day that this will be the outcome. And I can't see him jettisoning his BFF coordinator short of Galen Scott-level behavior.
I don't think there's any chance he's still here come Christmas - new OC hire or not.
what exactly happened to our 2021 class, then?
That garbage defense you mentioned has kept us in games this year that the offense did not do enough to win. Every defense is struggling this year and ours is a brand new one. It is laughable how many games we have lost or thrown away because our offense goes into "hold onto the lead mode" and then flat out seems to quit trying to score for entire halves. That goes for the entire tenure of Fuente and Corne. I want a coach who wins us the games we are favored in by double digits, half the toss up games (seriously we've won 1 in the past few years I think) and an occasional upset. It's not much to ask for and was things we used to do. We haven't been a good team in the better part of a decade now and if they want to get more donors then they have to right that ship.
Make no mistake- our defense is absolute trash. We have a 1000 yard rusher this year. If you want the objective stats. Look at the rankings of o and d.
we have a 1000 yard rusher but can't score in the second half of ball games. I don't really care how good our offensive stats are (defenses all over the country have been bad this year)...the stat that matters the most is putting points on the scoreboard and VT just hasn't been able to do that enough
Are you factoring in that our D was excessively hard hit by COVID, having way more players out throughout the year than on offense? And that it's a new scheme and that the players didn't get much (if any) chance to practice together because of so many players being out? I mean, they have not done well at times, but let's be objective about some of the reasons. We played a walk-on against UNC. You're not going to get good results when you're playing walk ons (unless they've developed, but when you're forced into it???).
Plenty of reasons. Yes. But so far the results are horrible. Will see where it goes. I've just followed this site and fanbase long enough to realize that for some reason the defense often tends to get a pass. It's strange. People gave buds recent horrible defenses a pass. Yea I get it, he's hall of fame worthy - nonetheless they were trash as well. Jham so far gets an "F" if we're giving grades out. I'd give corn a D.
You're blaming lack of practice and HAVING to start a walk on as JHam's fault? The D certainly has not been good. We've gotten some good stops here and there, and not saying JHam will create a top 10 defense, but this year just doesn't seem like the one to judge JHam's coaching ability and defensive scheme.
There you go again, affording these passes/excuses. Do people give Fuente the same? No. So far jham has done nothing to prove his worth. That simple. I'm not saying fire him. I'm taking what I've seen so far and making an evaluation.
This is so short-sighted. JHam isn't in his 5th year. He's in year one. And a very weird one with COVID. His defense didn't have proper spring or fall camps to install and coach the scheme. He hasn't had the opportunity to bring in players to fit his scheme. After 2018, when our offense was atrocious for two years in a row, people were still willing to give Fuente and Cornelson some time to get things right because we knew that any fair evaluation would require some time for the coaches to get the right pieces in place. What you're seeing on this site is that after 5 years we have a pretty good amount of data on which to evaluate Fuente and Cornelson. There just simply isn't enough data on JHam. The defense sucks this year. We recognize that. But we also understand that this is JHam's first year. If our offense had sucked this bad in 2016 I can just about guarantee you that most of us wouldn't be calling for Fuente's job. We understood then and understand now that he would need time to get his guys in and teach his system. Well, he's had that time and it isn't working. Time to move on. JHam is just collateral damage at this point. I feel badly for him because he hasn't had the time to prove himself. The defense hasn't been great but it has shown more improvement this year than the offense. The two units are going opposite directions.
He had one horrible defense in 2018 ranked 77th. This defense was heavily criticized and raked through the coals. Did BUD himself get a pass for this? By some, certainly. Having one or two bad defenses in 25 years has earned him some leeway with some in the fanbase, shockingly, but the defense itself was heavily criticized.
2019 wasn't VT standard, and was inconsistent, but still finished 39th in SP+. Not horrible by any means. Horrible defense don't have multiple P5 shutouts, usually. Especially in this era of offense.
2017 defense ranked 9th.
2016 defense ranked 21st
2015 defense ranked 18th
2014 defense ranked 11th
2013 defense ranked 1st
Reconsider your position.
I know the history. Our defense last year was dogcrap. So I'd say two years at least. There's little in my position to reconsider - buds defenses the last two years were horrible - and little was said about it. That's my greater point - there is an absurd trend with this fanbase to dwell on the shortcomings of the o while giving much less attention to the d.
There was a ton said about it. Did you avoid all social media and forums after the UVA and Kentucky games where we got gashed by big plays? Did you avoid all discourse around the team the ENTIRE 2018 season?
They were absolutely inconsistent. We had the Duke, UVA, and Kentucky games all happen in the same season where we shut out Pitt, shut out GT, and shut down Wake Forest who probably had the best offense we played other than UVA. Ultimately the defense finished at 24.7ppg allowed in 2019, 40th out of 130 teams.
You can say it wasn't up to Bud's, or VT's, standard, but your position that it was terrible is just not defensible. Repeating yourself isn't defending your position.
Not to be some Corny defender, but his point does have some merit. People fall all over themselves to make excuses for JHam, but skewer Cornelson for every single mistake in putting together what is statistically our best offense since 2010 by a mile. We clearly need to be better on both sides of the ball though and in a world where Fuente does return, I can't imagine either is here next year.
It's strange. People gave buds recent horrible defenses a pass.
From previous comment. you would think Bud Foster would get a mulligan with a very young defense, and having health issues. I guess not. 25 years of top ten defense by one of the most respected D coaches in NCAA history, and he shits the bed once.
Bud wasn't going to run after recruits- he chased a couple a year, and let his crew do the rest. It was one of his flaws, but nobody, I mean nobody in college football did more with less talent than bud. Hell, I could coach Alabama's defense- it takes an innovator to do what Bud did here at tech. So yes, the defense, and Bud Foster always got a pass, and always will. Many schools didn't offer players, especially defensive backs, until they found out that Bud had offered them. It was used many times by other teams. They knew he knew he knew how to pick em. Bud gets the pass, fuente- not so much.
You don't get a mulligan in college football. Well, unless you make it up the next year.
Bud phoned it in for more than one year, and it was right when Fuente needed a little bit of help. Right when he was trying to change a football program into what we need it to be for the long term.
So I reject your hypothesis that "Bud gets a pass". Nobody gets a pass when you're trying to re-build a football program, because a major failure anywhere affects everywhere else.
Yeah, fuente and whit shoulda kicked bud to the curb with his heart issues. He should not get a pass for being sick. Nobody gets a pass. Hey you ever worked when you thought you would die?, I have , and it isn't easy
Clearly, that wasn't an option.
The decision point on Bud was at the moment Fuente was hired. He made the right call to keep him.
The mistake is to pretend it didn't have an effect on the program as a whole.
Wake Forest on line 1....Walk on you say? 3 Interceptions you say? Hooker completed more passes to their walk-on safety then most of his wide receivers
Walk - ons aren't all built the same. Sam Rogers for example. However, Tyler Matheny in the UNC game was not equivalent to the walk-on that intercepted Hooker.
I never disagreed with our defense being bad, I'm well aware of how bad they have been. I did state that even being that bad they have done enough in several games to get a W if they offense holds up their end of the bargain. Every defense this year is struggling, it is the much harder side of the ball to play without having a spring and summer camp. Our offense goes entire quarters without scoring and leaves our defense hung out to dry way to often. These close games should be won by us (defense doing enough to keep us in it), especially against teams we are favored against yet we just flat out don't score in the second half despite good field position. We will have leads and instead of continuing to score we switch to "let's just hangout" and then we lose those games. Fuck it our defense is bad everyone knows that but if the defense is bad then why the fuck do we play so conservative on offense when we have a lead or are losing in the second half???
They've done enough bad to make us lose many games this year. They can't stop any team when we need a stop.
lol and our offense can't score when they need to score. What's your point?
My point is that our fanbase strangely focuses primarily on offense and corny when our defense warrants equal or more scrutiny.
Bud fairly consistently had top 20 defenses throughout his tenure at VT. He set a really, really high bar. I'll use FPI rankings for the following points.
In 2016 and 17 Bud fielded the 11th ranked defense both years. Then the NFL took a bunch of guys and in 2018 we saw probably one of the worst defenses VT can remember, ranking 93rd. That is awful. And lack of talent (bare cupboard) can largely be blamed for that. Blame Beamer if you like, (or Bud, for that matter) but also recognize that Fuente's recruiting strategy since he arrived has leaned heavily on the offensive side of the ball. He has recruited very aggressively to the offense and let defensive recruiting suffer. Despite the lack of talent and bodies, Foster managed to cobble together the 46th ranked defense in 2019. Not garbage but definitely not the Bud Foster standard we've all grown accustomed to. And when you look at the talent he had to work with, it's pretty impressive that our defense was even middle of the pack good. Then he retired and we brought in a completely new staff. At this point we're all expecting the defense in 2020 to be just as bad, if not worse, than we've seen in recent history. There's no Bud and no talent. And that was before COVID. Then COVID sank any hopes of JHAM putting together a decent product. WE ALL KNEW DEFENSE WAS GOING TO BE TRASH NO MATTER WHAT. Saban wouldn't be able to get a top 40 unit out of the situation JHam was in.
Let's take a look at the offense, shall we? 2016 our offense explodes onto the scene (with Beamer's players + a stud Transfer in a new scheme) to finish ranked 49th. Not great, but not bad. A great start for an offensive minded coach who was specifically brought in to build a solid, consistent offense in Blacksburg. Then we took a step back in 2017 finishing 62nd. Probably a reasonable drop off considering the losses of Hodges, Ford, and, most importantly, Evans. But we figure these coaches know what they're doing, they're getting their guys into the program and installing their system. 2018 is really the only year that I think you can squarely blame the defense for the performance. The offense, though inconsistent, finished 46th (not garbage, but not the type of offense you'd expect from an offensive guru) and left a lot of people wanting. At least we were trending in the right direction after that initial burst in 2016 and a sophomore slump. It became reasonable to expect the offense to continue it's climb into the ratings in 2019, especially against one of the easiest schedules in the P5. But nope, the offense shit the bed again coming in at 58th on the year. Actually worse than the 46th ranked defense that you so adamantly want to blame.
Now this year isn't complete yet but the offense is ranked 26 (the highest ever) but I think that is skewed by two big factors. The first being COVID. COVID has clearly had a much more significant impact on defenses than offenses. Defenses all over the country are just flat out bad this year. Bad defenses helps our offense look better. Secondly, our OL is the best it's been in decades (credit to Vice) and Herbert is easily the best RB VT has seen since Ryan Williams. For an offense that hadn't been able to run the ball at all in Fuente's first 4 years we surprised teams out of the gate with our running game explosion. Defenses caught on, though, and half way through the year teams started taking the run away and forcing the QBs to beat them with their arms. We very clearly cannot do that. Hooker cannot win games through the air and that is a big reason why we can't move the ball and score in the second half of games this year. Once defensive coaches see what our game plan is in the first half they adjust and completely shut us down. The defense, has ranked 68th this year. Not good at all. But that was to be expected. The offense just hasn't scored enough to compensate. And in year five under an offensive guru who has recruited heavily to the offense in order to field a top flight scoring attack the fact that he hasn't delivered is much, much more damning than JHam fielding a lower middle of the pack defense in year one with COVID.
We're giving the defense a break because the defense always had an uphill battle. We're not giving the offense a break because these coaches have invested five years in a group that is horribly inconsistent, extremely predictable, and absolutely horrendous after half time.
I don't think you can blame JHam, but I do think you have to hold Bud somewhat responsible for the complete collapse of the defense over multiple years.
Yes, we owe him for lots of great wins at VT, but part of the reason we are where we are now is on those bad years of defense.
I think that you aren't really considering that changes have been made on the defensive coaching staff. The point of these changes was to improve the performance on the field. That is why many people are willing to overlook the defenses performance for some time.
On the other hand, the offense has performed efficiently. However, there is a perception that much of that efficiency is found early in the season against weaker competition. When VT has faced good teams, the offense has struggled or just not shown up for halves at a time. This has been a recurring theme over the last four years as teams have become more familiar with our offensive schemes. Our HC is determined to actually make no changes on that side of the coaching staff.
This year we have the best offensive line in recent memory (and maybe the ACC), yet our results are not reflective of the talent that is on the field. Is that not an indictment of our offensive coaching? This is why people are more concerned with the performance of the offense.
Defense returned the majority of starters, and could have been special. But Fuente decided that now, for some reason, was the right time to break in the greenest of green intern-level coaches to run the show. He should be held responsible for that decision, because otherwise a competent defense paired with a once-in-a-decade rushing attack could have allowed Tech to meet the expectations for this year. Which, again, were winning the Coastal.
You can't implement a new scheme during COVID and expect the team to be successful. Hamilton was destined to fail, by no fault of his own or Fuente's. And no, I don't think he can just 'run bud's system' - only half the staff knows it.
I think we needed Bud to run Bud's system. It was based on heroics and adjustments. When it worked, it was glorious. When it came up short, it was ugly.
I think that without Bud, we definitely needed to go a different direction.
Man that's a brutal assessment, but can't think of a single flaw in those arguments. Wow.
I'm really genuinely curious what mistakes you think Fuente has learned from and adapted to, or why on earth you think he hasn't already proven his "inability to reflect and grow" at this point.
Proof of inability to reflect and grow is sitting right there in the OC chair.
Posted this graph in the other thread, but I really want to hear how you explain this off as acceptable. It honestly seems like as long as Fuente doesn't start drooling on himself you'd be OK with his continued tenure. What makes you think that this trend is going to reverse itself?
via GIPHY
Every 3rd and long call from CornFu + their usage of Herbert makes this just as accurate of a criticism of their regime as the last.
Did you miss his flirtation with Baylor?
Please cite your evidence
He's had plenty of time to turn things around, he's not done so.
Reasonable fans did not believe this. I do think its fair to expect a coach who can recruit, understands how to sell the programs, and doesn't shit the bed.
He has proven his inability.
This is exactly the problem. Fans are tuning out.
Also worth noting that he did win 10 games his first year and was a bowl win away from 10 in his second year. So acting like this was a program in a deep state of disarray is not accurate.
Thinking VT would be competing for the CFP at this point was a pipe dream, but success (8-10 wins a year) was pretty attainable basically from the start for him
It was a solid Jr/Sr. class, and if I remember he had to bring in the best JuCo QB on the market to make it work. The team was an empty shirt. Perhaps Fuente's worst decision was to let Evans go to the NFL...surely there was some way to advise him against that...bad for both parties.
Again, I'm not some Fuente apologist...he's not somebody I care for and hasn't blown the doors off of VT, but I just don't understand how firing him is going to solve the problems we have. Is there some guy out there that I am unaware of that can recruit 4-5s to BBurg and compete every year with ND, Clemson, etc. in 3-4 years? Is that realistic? If it is, then I guess I am the crazy one. Even the guys that do move the needle (Franklin, Minnesota guy, etc.) aren't really that good.
Respect your point of view even if I disagree with most of it, so leg up. And I hope you are correct because I am concerned that we won't have the money to get rid of him and be able to bring in anybody new for a couple more years, but who knows?
But I do think there are a lot of straw man arguments being made. Few expect a rapid turn-around and the program was stagnant and not in freefall when Beamer left. And totally agree, Beamer's offenses were awful at times. But we are seeing a steady decline now after an initial burst. This year plus the last 2 have seen Fuente win 6, 8, and 4-6 games (with 6 being really optimistic) having decent recruited talent and playing in what has arguably been the weakest division of any P5 conference. When the current and prior year's recruiting classes hit the field and he is coaching bottom 10% of the P5-level talent against improving teams like UNC, GT, UVa, and Miami, what do you expect? I expect 2-5 wins. Maybe he can do better than that on the field or maybe recruiting can make a substantial upturn, but I'm quite skeptical.
Fair point he definitely came into a full cupboard and he had a great first year with them. But he hasn't really come close to replicating that and there aren't many indicators that it will get back any time soon IMO.
I don't think the goal for most reasonable fans is to compete with Clemson and ND in a few years (though feeling like we had a snowballs chance in hell at the occasional upset would be nice) but we probably shouldn't be losing to Liberty and Wake and getting ran off the field by Pitt.
It's not necessarily about fixing the problems with Blacksburg but about fixing the problems that Fuente has brought to Blacksburg. I don't see anyone here upset over the lack of NY6 bids, people are upset over things that are really practical and realistic. Don't have losing seasons, don't lose the bowl streak, don't lose recruiting battles to App State, let us have fun supporting this team! Maybe everything Fuente does can be explained with some context, but when you put it all together you get the symptoms of a failed coach. There's absolutely no reason that we as fans should accept mediocrity, and there's no reason to settle for a failed coach because of the possibility of the next coach also failing.
I don't think we should accept it either, and I definitely don't think Fuente is accepting it. I do think he is trying though, and changes are being made. Unfortunately, they are taking longer than we have patience for and probably longer than he thought it would take. However, It is possible to not accept his results thus far and still keep him as head coach.
Look, you won't hear me complaining if Whit fires him. But, based on what I've seen, I would not agree with it. Failure teaches people things, and it's incredibly rare for somebody to have instant and sustained success. I don't accept his results, but I do see something in his philosophy that could lead to long term success.
most of us aren't asking for immediate success....we're in year 5 and we're worse than we were in year 1. And it's not an anomaly. We've been trending down year over year since he got here. I don't know what you see in him. He's completely shut the program off which has killed buzz and excitement. Recruiting has been very disappointing. The results on the field speak for themselves. And if he really did learn from his mistakes Cornelson wouldn't still be employed. Fuente had a chance to save his job by replacing Cornelson after the 2018 season and he didn't do it. I recognize that firing people is one of the most difficult things to do as a person in power. Especially people with whom you've built a relationship and like. But it's a pretty big failure for a P5 HC to be unwilling or unable to fire a coach who is not doing their job adequately
The thing is, our offense has improved. Our offensive SP+ went from 71, to 51, to 56 , to 18 right now.
I'm not advocating for Fuente or Corny guy to keep their jobs, but the offense improved over time. IMO the biggest issue is far and away recruiting. I'm very worried about the next few years.
I'd wager that our offense has improved in spite of the coaches, not because of them. Our OLine is the best it's been in decades and it's still misused. Herbert almost single handedly carried this team early in the year (which skews the stats IMO) but if you look at our last 4 games our offense has largely been held in check because teams figured out that Herbert was a real threat and they're selling out to stop the run and force us to win through the air....something that several teams have successfully proven we cannot do. That is not a good offense. We're one dimensional and rely too heavily on the talent of a transfer. Vice might be the only P5 quality coach on the staff. That doesn't absolve the rest of the staff for their transgressions.
Clarify something for me. Do the coaches get credit for the talent on the team or are they only responsible for the bad recruiting? Do they get credit for scheming to utilize the most exciting player we've had since David Wilson or do they only get credit for play calls to Herbert that fail miserably?
I only ask because everyone is making it sound like the coaches have royally dicked up every aspect of coaching: recruiting, development, playcalling, etc, but I think the reality is that we're zeroing in on their failures in each area and then making excuses for any successes.
Explain to me why Herbert had 1 carry in the first quarter against UNC.
Explain to me why Stinespring shouldn't be lauded for his success as an OC because our 2010 offense was pretty good with Tyrod Taylor.
It's possible for the coaches to do some things right. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. But these coaches fail these players more often than they help them succeed. Vice might be the only coach on the staff who would be considered P5 quality. The OL is one of the lone bright spots on this team. Credit the coaches for bringing in some great transfers but that isn't a recipe for sustained success. VT needs to recruit better players out of HS and develop them. These coaches (outside Vice) haven't shown any indication that they can do either of those things. Our OL recruits are good and the players show marked improvement with time in the program. The same cannot be said for RB, QB, WR, or TE. One must wonder why we fail so miserably at developing almost every position group on our offense.
I'm the first to admit that the entire Fuente era the offense has felt like a bicycle chain that just can't realign with the gears. There always seems to be unnecessary friction. That said, it's tough to say that players (who mostly aren't highly rated recruits) are playing decently in spite of the coaches, but also say that the coaches aren't good at game planning.
My theory is that this offensive staff is good at scouting, developing talent, and game planning, but they're bad at recruiting and slow to make in game adjustments.
Lechty turned around the RB room really quick. While Blackshear hasn't lived up to expectations, Herbert has exceeded them and Holston is finally living up to potential. Wide Receiver is a recruiting issue, not a coaching issue IMO. QB room (finally) has talent, and everyone to cycle through to date has peaked at VT and bottomed out before/after transferring elsewhere.
Our coaches are not performing to the standards set by the Beamer administration, and that's really frustrating. The messaging around the program is at times tone deaf, and the worst part is that the coaches can no longer sell fans on the future of the program. For this reason, I think it's time for a change, but, if recruiting was on the upswing and the messaging was improved, but on the field results were similar, I'd have a different opinion.
ehhh...is it though? What I actually said is that the offense is decent (or was early in the year) in spite of the coaching, not because of it. That's not exactly the same thing. The OL is a bright spot. Vice seems to be doing his job. But outside of that and Herbert, who is a transfer, has carried this offense. If we don't have Herbert (or the OL under Vice) our offense doesn't produce anywhere close to the level it has this year. We know from our history that one really talented player (Taylor) can mask a lot of coaching deficiencies offensively. I believe that is exactly what is going on with Herbert (with help from an actually good OL unit).
Maybe...but I'm not sold on this. Herbert has been great but he is new this year. How much of his greatness can we really attribute to Lechtenberg? To that point, Blackshear has disappointed. So he's 1-1 there. I haven't really seen anything from Holston that we hadn't already seen before.
Yeah, sure but recruiting is part of the job. Our coaches have failed in a big way on the recruiting trail. Blame recruiting if you want but that's just as much on the coaches as failing to develop the warm bodies we do have.
This is another area where maybe the coaches failed to evaluate the talent. It seems like a talented group but why isn't that translating on the field? We don't seem to have any QBs who can make the basic throws on any sort of consistent basis. Why? If they're really talented but can't throw the ball is that on the coaches for failing to develop them? Is it on the coaches for failing to evaluate the talent? Is it on the coaches for asking the players to do things they can't do? Is it on the coaches for not asking the players to do the things they can do well? Is it on the players for not trying hard enough? Is it on the players for not being good enough? Is it on the players for not being able to execute a majority of their snaps? Who do you blame and why? The problem remains, though. Our QBs can't throw the ball well enough to punish defenses who are selling out to stop the only part of our offense that has shown some success this year. We are 1-dimensional.
I pretty much agree with this entire paragraph. The coaches are falling well short of reasonable expectations and if the recruiting didn't absolutely stink I'd be willing to defend them for another year. I defended these coaches through 2019 but I've seen enough. These coaches just aren't the answer.
Yeah, because firing your OC as your offense shows steady improvement over time is a good idea... Find an up-and-comer OC that wants to work for that guy. Cornelson isn't perfect, but it's not because of the offensive unit or playcalling, it's because he hasn't exactly blown the doors off of QB development and he has no personality (aka can't recruit). Corny is a minor problem...not worth firing though.
The issue is on defense, and while you may not like them, Fuente has made changes to the unit.
If you cannot understand why we are worse in year 5 than we were in year 1, then you are not watching the same team that I am. Fuente came to a program with a solid Senior and Junior class. He then convinced the top juco qb to come to BBurg, and voila. Beamer left the rest of the cupboard dry, and it was obvious. Additionally, Bud and the D-staff was on a 3-4 year plan to stick around and help smooth over the transition.
Why is everybody so surprised that the team is in a tough stretch during years 4-6? When we use our brain, it's fairly simple to explain. When we think with other things, we want a 2-year dip and then back to 10-win seasons...and when that plan of magic and wonder doesn't work...fire the guy. Makes no sense.
This is some impressive spin, but I'll give you some props for standing in the paint.
We need to quit using Beamer as a Fuente scape goat. The recruiting trends do not support your argument and you conveniently leave them out.
You seem to be applying the logic and excuses from 2018 to 2020. Why do you still think Fuente needs time to recover from Beamer "leaving the cupboard bare"? This has been his team and his players for 3 years now and it's worse than ever in both recruiting AND on-field performance.
LOL, you're being ridiculous.
This is debatable. He can't recruit, hasn't developed a single QB (both things you concede) and the play calling is questionable at best (just ask French). If you don't think that failing at two(three) of the most important parts of his job isn't problematic then I don't know what to tell you.
Here's the thing, though. We all knew that the defense was going to be pretty bad this year. Fuente told Bud when he arrived that his defense wouldn't have to be perfect anymore (the implication, of course, being that the offense was going to score lots of points). Well, we're in year five of this offense and we can't score points in the second half of our games. The offense is one dimensional and the success of the offense is due mostly to a great OL (the best we've had in decades) and an uber-talented running back who transferred here through the portal. Take those two things away and I don't think our offense touches the top 50. We looked great early in the year when Herbert was an unknown and teams didn't know that we could run the ball (since we hadn't really been able to in the previous four years of this regime). Once teams figured out that we could hurt them on the ground they started to sell out to stop the run and force our QBs to beat them through the air. And we can't do that. Because Cornelson, who you seem to think is blameless, hasn't developed them at all. Hooker is no better now than he was when he first arrived. If that wasn't also the case with Josh Jackson and Quincy Patterson I might be inclined to blame Hooker. But the reality is that the coach just isn't helping the QBs improve.
And the defense has shown more progress in half of a terribly disrupted season than the offense has in 5 years. Despite being a pretty poor unit at the beginning of the season they've done enough to keep our team in games and the offense hasn't been able to capitalize.
Why so arrogant?
You quite clearly don't understand or are just completely ignoring the case against Fuente. The desire to fire Fuente isn't about not being able to win 10 games. Fuente has sucked all of the joy out of the program by walling it off from the fans and the media. He has shown absolutely zero interest in embracing the "This is Home" slogan VT is so desperately trying to adopt. He has come up extremely short on the recruiting trail despite promises of elite recruiting classes. His offenses have underwhelmed relative to his billing. And even though we have moved the ball better this year (thanks in large part to OL and Herbert) we can't score points - which is the single most important statistic that all these Fuente-truthers love to neglect. And when things aren't going well Fuente has failed to take accountability, blaming our short-comings on "execution" or "some of the weirdest things I've ever seen occur"
You know what doesn't make any sense? Looking at a guy in year five who has done nothing to improve the prospects of the program and think we're in a good place heading in a good direction. If Fuente had a top 20 recruiting class on deck I'd be willing to give him some benefit of the doubt. But the talent we had with Beamer's players (who "left the rest of the cupboard dry", if you recall) was much better than the talent we have now or will have in the next several years if recruiting doesn't make a huge comeback.
You can blame Beamer leaving the cupboard bare for years 2-4. But at this point, there are Seniors on this team who were recruited by Fuente. The cupboards being even more bare now than when Beamer left is 100% on Fuente, not Beamer.
I hope it's okay to post this (feel free to mod edit and remove if not), but from French's most recent review:
please don't copy/paste paywalled content, especially from TKPC. feel free to summarize a point French made in a film review, but copy/paste is definitely no bueno
Lets spell out the points you're making
1 - Beamer left a lot of talent in the Junior and Senior classes
2 - Beamer left the cupboard bare
3 - Therefore, Fuente cannot be blamed for the team being bad now
Respectfully, that is horse shit. You're leaving out a lot of extraneous details that are a little important given your final conclusion.
1 - 2019 and 2020 had recruiting classes ranked in the bottom 10 of the Power 5.
2 - The majority Freshman or Sophomore talent that was left by Beamer was forced out by transfer within 24 months of Fuente being a coach due to 'locker room issues'
3 - We have not developed a single passer while Fuente has been here. That skillset does not improve, it treads water, if not regresses. This has been true of Jackson, Hooker, and Patterson. And its worth pointing out that should Patterson move forward with his decision, 2 of the 3 most tenured QBs under Fuente, who have gotten the most 'development' by the coaches, have transferred. All 3 entered the portal.
4 - The defensive coach that Fuente brought to Blacksburg to eventually replace Bud was unceremoniously fired for questionable moral decisions.
5 - Our playcalling has regressed to the point of being one dimensional and predictable.
6 - Our clock management has become a national punchline.
7 - The Sports Illustrated article
and most damning of all
8 - All but 1 or 2 of Beamer's final recruits have aged out by now. This team is made up 99% by Fuente's recruits, and that would be the case even if Beamer left him a roster of 4* and 5* talent.
There's a hell of a lot that has gone into us being a really bad program right now, and its completely disingenuous to boil it down to "Beamer didn't leave Fuente anything". Fact of the matter is, this is Fuente's team. He picked this staff, and he himself recruited and signed every player on it. And this is the first year where that was the case, and arguably the one with the most talent, given how bad some of our recent classes have been.
LOL! Is this a fake account? All of these post read like a UVA fan trying to rile up folks on this site with purposefully terrible opinions that have just enough logic to make them seem legit.
I appreciate the point of view in your post.
I do not think the growth required for Fuente to become a successful P5 coach can occur if he continues at VT.
VT can not let him keep learning how not do do things. It seems every time things get better for VT, the next coach on the schedule adjusts and beats the crap out of VT.
Fuente needs to go somewhere were the margins between success and failure are not as small as in the P5 to figure out some more winning ideas. He does not have the repertoire of coaching insight to run the VT program right now.
One day VT fans may look at Fuente and wish they had him as a coach but that day is not now.
Freudian typo
VT can not let him keep learning how not do do things
FreudianFuenteian typoFTFY
You are looking at this wrong way. No, no one is magically going to get us to compete with the Clemsons and NDs of the world in 4/5 years. And I wouldn't have even expected that from Fuente.
That being said, we don't want Fuente gone because he couldn't accomplish the aforementioned goal. We want him fired because we are now at a point where we can't even compete with the Pitts/GTs/Dukes of the ACC. I expect to lose these games now. So it's not that Fuente didn't have a big positive impact, it's that he had a big negative impact.
A big reason Evans left was because Fuente was using him so heavily in the run game.
Waiting a year might have paid off. I think the history of injured starting qbs since then (and the distinct lack of qb development) suggests Evans decision was a well thought out one the end results notwithstanding.
I think expectations at VT are consistently (at least once every 3-4 years) winning the division and therefore making it to the ACCCG along with beating UVA. Those are minimum expectations, and are very attainable considering the Coastal is almost always one of the weakest P5 divisions and UVA has never been a powerhouse program. Even now, they're looking at a ceiling that is let's be competitive and maybe be ranked a few times a year.
Fuente has one Coastal title, hasn't had one since his first year while play on the field and recruiting has regressed. We've been in the driver's seat for other CG appearances but somehow threw those away. We're trending down while other division rivals are trending up (GT, UVA, UNC). He had 5 years to get his program in place, and he was gifted a solid foundation. He's barely keeping level with Beamers last years and his teams don't seem a play or two away from a win like those teams were. There are no trendlines that suggest he'll be able to turn it around in the next few years. We know what he is at this point.
P.S. I'll never buy the "our location makes recruiting/competing impossible" thinking
I think our location is a definite challenge. But, I think it boils down to what a 17 year old thinks he wants versus what he will want once in the program. Many of the things that help some universities sell dont amount to a hill of beans once the kid is in the program, lifting weights, practicing, and going to school. There isn't much time left after that for any of the other things. I think that is why we have been more successful with transfers. So, the question is, how does the coach make the 17 year old understand that. I think it comes down to the current players helping on visits and whatnot to lay out the realistic expectation.
I don't think it's as much of a challenge as people here make it out to be. As I said on another thread, we're not super close to any one recruiting hotbed, but we're a day trip or a really quick flight from some of the best recruiting grounds in the country. We've been able to get FLA & GA kids here too. We won't recruit with the blue bloods, but a good recruiter can get talent to Blacksburg.
More concern to me is that of the players he landed, too many either aren't good, aren't getting better, or couldn't get along and left.
Also, someone is leaking the narrative about the Hokies being behind on resources, and that was a reason for the flirtation with Baylor. Well, at no point has Fuente been an active part in solving that problem in a public facing manner. That, as much as the on-the-field results, is the reason I do not believe he can caulk the leaking boat.
caulk the boat? at this point fixing the program feels like flex-sealing a row boat with a screen door for a bottom
Yeah, but that actually works
"If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the precipate." There is too much precipate in Merryman right now.
precipitate ?
Preci-paté. Fancy paté to go with our turkey bacon.
precipitate, the bits that become insoluble and (typically) sink to the bottom
edit: and then are subsequently filtered out
The observable results.
Sorry- this is what happens when history degree guy trying to get all chemisty.
+10 for the Chemistry professor-esque joke....
Two atoms are walking down the street. One atom says to the other, "Hey! I think I lost an electron!" The other asks, "Are you sure?" "Yes, I'm positive!"
I used to have a t shirt with that joke. I loved it
P.S. I'll never buy the "our location makes recruiting/competing impossible" thinking
Agreed. Recruits go to Maryland. That place is a hole.
All of this makes sense if CFB were a regular organization. Schools absolutely move on from coaches and compound financial mistakes--but it's because they have to. In an industry where one of the major pillars of your organization is recruiting, you HAVE to keep enthusiasm high with recruits. Once you reach a point where recruiting drops off, it's game over. If recruiting wasn't a thing I would agree with you completely and say Fuente needs more time. But once our pipeline of talent dried up, there's just no coming back from this.
I would agree with you if Fuente could recruit. If Fuente could come out and say "look, I know this year has been bad, my staff and I really struggled with COVID, it seems moreso than other teams, but the future is bright. We have one of the top dual threat QBs leaving the state of Texas to play at Virginia Tech. The best edge rusher and the best D Tackle in the state turned down scholarships from Oklahoma and Ohio State to play for Coach Hamilton. We have a variety of other players coming in who we scouted and we believe will can compete with a lot of our senior guys for playing time.'
But Fuente can't say that. He promised us a top 20 class of 2021 (literally promised this at an Atlanta Hokie Club meeting before the 2019 season), and he is not at all able to deliver on that.
Uh...has your head been in the sand for the past 2 years?
Don't fire Fuente until he proves his inability to reflect and grow
This is specifically what drives everyone mad about him is readying to get him fired? How much more evidence do we need and time for Fu to trip over himself time and again?
How can you not "care" for Beamer? Yes, his last handful of years were not great but saying he is equivalent to FU in all these contexts is a garbage take. Beamer built this entire thing and served Tech admirably from '87 to '15. Fu waltzed in, crapped all over it in less than 5 years and continues to say things are looking really up and we're heading in the right direction.
committed to the university
I have never really felt this sentiment. He has tried to do some of the right things but to me this has never felt genuine. To a degree, it almost has the same feeling as Buzz. Now, CMY, that guy is bleeding Tech more than anyone after 1.5 years.
LOL. The Baylor fiasco is a clear indicator of the exact opposite
It's already been said but for me Venables is the best possible hire we could make.
Clemson's Brent Venables realizes 'time is approaching' for head coaching job
Question is.....are we a top-30 caliber job anymore?
I think anybody outside of the upper half of the SEC and top 2 or 3 in other P5 conferences would probably listen to an offer we'd make, so I'd think yes, top 30. Or a different way of looking at it is if there are 12 teams in each P5 conference, that's 60 teams. Are we better than the bottom half of those. I think yes, we are. Especially if you throw better offensive coaching in and better recruiting.
Honestly, I think we are right there on that line. And I think we are at a critical point. We can move back into the perennial top 25, or we can drop off a cliff. The fact that we are in the crappiest division in the P5 helps us. I don't think we will ever get into the playoffs as they are structured now, but if the playoffs are expanded to get auto-bids for conference champions there is a reasonable path for us to get there.
His kids just started playing for Clemson. If he ever leaves, it won't be while they're still there.
If we somehow landed him, you don't think his kids would be interested in playing for their HC dad?
That's not what I'm saying, even if it were possible for them to transfer in conference without rule changes. I'm saying, he wouldn't leave them.
They wouldn't be able to get the transfer waiver from the NCAA...
u right, I forgot, 'cause VT
I've always thought he would wait until they finish their time at Clemson, but apparently that's no longer a guarantee. If the right offer comes along he won't get to decide to wait 3 more years. Both his sons are getting PT right now, and if they expected to get pushed out of PT down the line in his absence they could always just transfer to wherever he takes the job.
Venables is a great take but has red flags of his own. He needs a guy to bear hug him all game to keep him off the field of play. It would definitely be interesting though and it would come with a two for one of deflating Clemson a bit.
Maybe I'm a maniac but I think that's a positive
Didn't Bud use to have that fire to him, too?
Godamn right. Fuente needs someone to keep him from napping during games.
We've had guys on staff (both Fuente's and Beamer's) who have had way bigger red flags than this. Come on.
Wait, what is the red flag there? What are you implying? Foster basically needed that as well and he got our guys playing at a championship level.
Yeah, not recently, but Bud used to be really fiery on the sidelines. I thought that was part of what made him a great DC. I think his defenses fed off that fire and energy.
Great DC does not equal great HC. Same reason Bud never got top offers as HC. There is a fine line between I love the fire of Venables to I had Nardouchey
Well sure, but that's a completely different reason than "he needs to be pulled back onto the sideline" lol.
I view not having self control on the sideline as a red flag for a HC. All candidates will have different red flags. I would absolutely take Venebles, but I wouldn't put him head and shoulders over other candidates just because he calls a great defense. I may put him over other candidates because he recruits excellent defensive players.
Case: Buddy Ryan was a lousy head coach and a great DC (until he got to Houston.) Your HC either has to find someone he trusts implicitly if he controls one side in the ball, or he has to be the oversight and delegate effectively.
Fuck Pat Narduzzi
Question is.....are we a top-30 caliber job anymore?
With Venables on board?
Hell yes. In just about any capacity.
Tracy Claeys....ducks:)
You shouldn't just be ducking, you should be in full retreat with your riot shield. I mean, astounding LB play and all aside, oh wait, and the top LBs we've recruited... Never mind, just UGH.
Honestly I believe he would make a good coach for VT.
I think he immediately improves the on the field product, at least short term. Can he build the infrastructure to sustain that success... that is a question mark. But, if Clawson (or Mike Elko, his former DC) was hired as HC, I wouldn't lament it like I would some hires.
Who are your no-no hires?
Rhymes with Blame Riffin, Rouxe Creeze, Rod Bantham, and lots of others.
This is a very reasonable question mark. I think it is sort of a "Mike Young" type of hire in that you know that you have a very good coach who is extremely likable and would be welcomed in Blacksburg IMO.
If you remember, the big question mark with CMY was in relation to recruiting. Well, he solved that by fantastic staff hires. I don't know if Clawson has the prowess to be able to do the types of things needed to build the infrastructure to sustain success, but I do think he could get us back atop the Coastal Division.
If you want to juice the fan base, this ain't it.
Are we sure we want to discount Shane yet? Rumor is he will only be making $2.5M so we could give him a bit of a raise.
Mostly \s
What's he making his second year? 3rd etc? Incentives? Assistants pay? Before we jump to conclusions it would be nice to see actual details.
Oh I am sure even the most attainable incentives with have him mid 3s at least.
So Post and Courier (Charleston) is saying base of 3 million. For a first time HC thats market value now we wait to see what his assistant pool is and what he gets as bonuses.
As much as I'd love the fairy tale of Shane coming and being Frank 2.0, the likelihood of that is pretty slim. As much turmoil there is in our program right now, could you imagine how much worse it would be if we were talking about needing to fire Frank's son sometime in the future? I think the TSL guys were the first group I heard express this sentiment, and I have to agree.
I agree sort of. I would much rather see him succeed here than somewhere else. But I would rather he not be here if he was to fail.
I was not on the Shane Train. I am glad he went to SC.
I feel like Shane Beamer going to USCe was probably the worst timeline if you want him to end up at VT. If he does well in the SEC, coming to VT would be a downward move. If he doesn't do well, it's a very underwhelming hire to come to VT. Unless it's a situation like Mark Right at Georgia, where he gets forced out despite consistently great seasons but not being able get over the hump, I don't see his route to VT.
Not only that, but if he does well at USC, they're going to be another power dominating the state of Virginia. Then we'll get to find out if he really burnt recruiting bridges like people have cried about for years
Since it was buried in the first part, I'm reposting here because I think he could be a lot like Shane. Cheaper option with the ability to throw more money at assistants. Going to throw out another name that I've seen be floated on Twitter: Charles Huff at Alabama. Played at Hampton. Recruited the hell out of VA at Penn State. Has worked along side James Franklin and Nick Saban.
he was the guy who got Saquon too right?
Yup
https://247sports.com/Coach/Charles-Huff-1732/AllTimeRecruits/
Incredible
Really interesting choice, someone who wasn't on my radar before. Would be fascinating to hear if he has HC aspirations, and what his vision for a team would be.
Charles Huff has quickly become a beloved and respected member of Saban's staff. Definitely someone who seems to have a very bright future in coaching.
Top notch recruiter with VA ties... There is logic here
It would be very interesting, although Saban assistants seem to have a very mixed record (sort of like Bellichek assistants in the NFL)
EDIT: If they want to take a risk, I think Huff would be a damn good one. The only question mark is can he get in front of the donors and the fanbase and lube up the wallets/build excitement in the program. He has never had that responsibility, and I think it is needed. But, I think he makes big improvement in the recruiting side of the coin, as long as someone can get him the resources to put together a staff that brings his energy to the network.
Yeah, for every Kirby Smart there's a Jeremy Pruitt, Derek Dooley, and Jim McElwein. Jury still out on Lane Kiffin but he seems to have some momentum (though so did Pruitt at this point last year).
What Lane has done at Ole Miss so far is very impressive. .500 with their schedule and the roster he inherited is a job well done. Not to mention he has turned that offense into one of the best in the country, instantly.
He's also charismatic, engaging on Twitter, and seems to enjoy engaging with donors. #ComeToTheSip is doing much better than #TX2VT.
Yeah, but even when he's had success, it seems like he gets fired almost every year or every other. Count me out of that unless he can show longer term success without getting fired. And by that time, would he even want to go to Tech from Ole Miss? And if we're not considering him, let's not just compliment random coaches.
I agree. That wasn't an endorsement for Lane as the VT head coach, but that he has a strong immediate impact on that program, which he has had elsewhere.
He definitely needs to prove he can improve a program and maintain it. That's certainly where he hasn't proven himself. If he can elevate Ole Miss, then stabilize them as a 6-6 to 9-3 type team with occasional good years, then that's proof of concept for me that he can be a successful HC.
What? Have you not read any of this sub thread? We are discussing Alabama assistants success because we're discussing a potential Alabama assistant coming to Blacksburg. We're not just throwing stuff out there to be nice. And we're not saying Lane Kiffin is a candidate.
That is the rub. There is a thin line between good CEO/HC/evangelist and a con artist. Lane is a con artist. He sells a vision and then doesn't deliver it. He hasn't delivered it anywhere. Keep him out of Blacksbrg.
Well to be fair, [fill in the blank] is Kiffin's dream job.
Little birdie says keep your eyes on Bruce Arians, if he gets forced out of Tampa. Apparently his disdain to coach college isn't as high up the list as we thought, however it would take the perfect storm of another decent NFL job not coming open and wanting him.
lol
The problem with this is that we would have to wait so long to make that hire. The situation with current players (the transfer portal) and recruits demands an almost immediate hire IMO.
That would be a home run.
I don't see it happening, but it would be a home run, especially if he surrounds himself with elite recruiters. And he'd have a vested interest, as being an alum
While it looks good on paper and gives us warm fuzzies because he is an alum, I absolutely wouldn't want this simply due to his age (68). It's unfair, but I want a guy who has many, many years of potential and would have tons of energy for the recruiting trail and ability to relate to the young players. Cleaning up the mess that is the recruitability of VT right now is going to require a lot of work.
The one scenario where I could get onboard with this is a Mack Brown like situation. Get a guy like Arians who is an alum, big time NFL pedigree, and surround him with a really dynamic staff. Probably have an promising head coach in waiting as an assistant on that staff. Would be a move to unite the fan base, reengage football alumni, and start rebuilding the program, but also a bridge for 4-5 years to the next guy.
Also, for French's sake on the reviews, I'm sure we'd see a hell of a lot better passing game and route concepts at least.
Good points! I wonder who Bruce might consider as his protege to recruit like hell for him (all Bruce needs to do is show up and close the deal) and then take the reigns once Bruce runs out of gas but has the program (more) stable.
I question his ability to properly use his player's skills. Case in point how he is using Tom Brady one of the best to ever play the position. Tom's game is cemented in pre-snap reads to diagnose coverage and throwing to where the defense isn't. Arians has incorporated none of that and is requiring Tom to make all of his reads post-snap. Arians also like to go deep a lot and the combination has led Tom to be on pace to throw the most interceptions in a single season of his career.
Also I question how young players today would feel about his attitude and coaching style.
Are you a bucs fan too?!
No Ravens. Ryen Russillo had a good segment on his podcast about Brady/Arians where he brought up all these points and it made sense to me.
and then when it's clear that there's a disconnect between the scheme and the player's strength, Arians has zero problem hanging the player out to dry publicly to boot
said "little birdy":
Give me Freeman or give me death
ESPN.....shane said his dad will be around the USC program. Talked about bringing BeamerBall to South Carolina. Bet they are packing the statue and road signs too?
What father wouldn't want to support his son? Doesnt mean frank is going to abandon blacksburg man. Sheesh
I think his real legacy is in South Carolina now.
Former players on Twitter are pushing for an in house family hire, someone who coached or played at VT. At that point, put JHam in interim, and let him earn it.
Shane Beamer made sense in this department because he actually has the qualifications we are looking for in addition to the family name and alum status - I'm not sure there's another candidate with VT ties out there who does though.
I get former players want somebody they're familiar with after Fuente locked the program down and shut them out, but hopefully they can get on board with an outsider who is actually qualified and willing to make and maintain those connections despite maybe not currently having them.
Yes. Any coach who comes into a program as an outsider and basically gives the middle finger to those who once made that program great is just unfathomable to me.
I wouldn't take over Microsoft and be like "Bill who? Oh, that guy. Yeah, tell him I am busy and will call him back sometime (not!)."
Anyone with a pulse would be good. Simply put someone who understands that their shit smells and can take a step back and actually assess problems, something this staff has zero ability to do.
I don't have any preferences at this point but I imagine if we make a change it will need to be quick as there won't be many top candidates worth the overhaul this off-season
Let's go with Grantham.
yeah, or not
Maybe the whole Grantham thing and the fake Twitter account are Whit's back-door method of diverting attention away from the story that may have been a real story - Fickell (the whole he visited with Tech thing that lived for a couple days).
So what you're saying is that Rockypere77 is actually one of Whit's burner accounts that he started in 2014 and he kept active for years waiting for exactly this moment?
The timing fits! /s
I'm talking about the Walter Keith Friedman twitter (fake) that is saying we're turning our full attention to Grantham.
I highly doubt this, but I would love if true.
Unpopular opinion
If Fuente cans Corny for a REALLY spectacular hire....I could get on board. Like a 1-1.3 mil/year OC. It'd be cheaper than firing Fuente now and I think it could be worth trying. I think JHam deserves another year as well.
I'm with you - it wouldn't be my first choice because I think our recruiting needs a full overhaul, but if he hired a big time OC and added assistants with big recruiting resumes I'd at least feel like we are addressing the areas of concern.
The reason it's unpopular is because, as so many people have said on here, recruiting is in the trash can. Fuente is a big part of that problem. So get rid of Corny but keeping him may help with that, but it isn't going to fix it. Also, the not engaging fans doesn't help with donations (probably actively hurts them).
I think it is probably time for Fuente to go, however, if this was the course we took (and it worked), I'd be happy to be wrong.
I don't have anything against the guy, I think he has just proven to be the wrong fit for VT. But if he can turn things around after all the bad sentiment and muck of this year, I'll celebrate the wins and send him an apology card.
I can see why some people want to try this but the problem is the next year or two of VT football are already completely sunk costs, we're going to stink. So how many years are you going to give Fuente to turn it around again, when he has already dug this hole himself? Are you going to fire him next year when he goes 3-9 and has absolutely zero support from the fanbase that is already calling to cut him loose? Because that is probably coming down the pipe even if he cans his entire staff and closed-door philosophy that got him here this afternoon. To give him a real shot with a new staff to climb out of this hole you're going to have to wait at least 2 years and probably longer to see real change, as you would need to with a new HC, and even then I think it's extremely unlikely that said change will happen with the guy who put us in this position in the first place in charge.
Was thinking about this today as well.
What if Fuente fires Corny for a real OC and gives an honest mea culpa to fans. He could buy a year with that and if he succeeds then who knows. JHam is in the exact position I thought about when he was announced as the hire. Tough break for him as I don't think he will get hired as DC
If Fuente can't recruit - which he can't, whatever the reason(s) - it doesn't matter who the OC is... or who the DC is for that matter. You have to fix recruiting first. Nothing else will help the program meet the expectation of competing for ACC championships until recruiting is competitive with schools like UNC, Clemson, FSU, South Carolina, PSU, Tennessee, and the other schools that routinely swoop in and sign the players VT identifies as top targets. Nothing.
Spot on post. We've seen teams (at VT and elsewhere) win divisions/conferences with a top 4 conference roster. We've never seen a team win a conference with the 11th best recruiting in said conference.
That's where we are right now. 2 straight classes that are outside the ACC's top 10.
Further, if Sands and the BOV believe Director's Cup points are the priority and want the athletic department to follow that edict, get used to being Pitt or (ghast) UVA in football... only without the multi-billion dollar endowments. Because you're right, in that reality, VT will need a few more billionaire boosters to buy a better program.
Oh I agree but just making the point that it would may buy him a year.
Which programs with our recruiting budget are recruiting well?
I don't know. I made some points above, but, assuming Herbert leaves for the draft, where are we next year with a new OC? Who will be the playmakers next year? Maybe someone can make better use of Blackshear, and we have Tre and Mitchell. The passing game, such as it is, was made possible by Herbert. At least that's my take. I'm pretty worried about what next year will look like with what we've seen on offense. If that's all on Corny, I guess, but that's a pretty big "if."
Herbert accepted a senior bowl invite yesterday. Tre seems to have one foot out the door. Mitchell's draft prospects seem good enough that he should be gone too. It looks real grim.
Because he shouldn't be a DC, at least not yet. It's ridiculous that we hired him.
personally, if he canned his whole offensive (minus Vice) and special teams staff along with Hilgart, id be ok with it. Just bc Fu cant recruit doesnt mean he cant bring in a new offensive staff that can make up for him
This plus FULLY opening the program to the fans and media. Without both, it's a big shrug. CFB games have too many commercials anyway, why bother?
Yea and if my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle
There are so many things wrong with this statement, and none of them have anything to do with VT Football.......
Leg to you sir
Here's my guess;
The needle moves very little the rest of the season on coaches due to COVID, so the selection pool is stunted.
And we win Saturday and accept a bowl bid to pull to .500
-or-
We lose Sunday and no bowl either through lack of invite or decline for "COVID" reasons.
Either way, Fuente gets his contract extended but at a lower salary under the guise of taking the pay hit to help the university and win some hearts & minds and a reduced buyout ($8M?) with an offset put in place and we have him for another year.
Season ticket sales take a hit for lack of interest and we have the opportunity to dump him during the season if the trend continues but at lower costs and perhaps a better market.
Not ideal, but not a horror story either.
I have a friend at 31 flavors who said that Marcus Freeman CIN DC might be an option in the mix? Most people suggest it's really Fickell who's the mastermind and not Freeman. But I liked that option last year when it came up.
My top picks now in no particular order are.
Bill Clark UAB, Todd Bates CLEM, Tony Elliott CLEM, Jamey Chadwell UCC
If we pick a G5 coordinator to be our next head coach, I will riot
The longer I ponder this, the more Shane going to SC seems to gnaw at me. Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy for him!
I just wish his first head coaching gig wasn't in our back yard. I think he'll hire a good staff that has a heavy focus on recruiting (I wonder if he'll hire Stiney for a role that is primarily focused on recruiting. If so, that is a home run hire IMO). If Whit doesn't get this next hire right, things are going to be difficult for a very long time.
Let's put this season in perspective: Every team we lost to will finish the year with a winning season. We had to play 9 games straight. After a 4-2 start, we dropped two close ones to top 25 teams that we absolutely should have won. The Pitt game we were completely gassed and missing several key guys.
Given the circumstances and the schedule Fuente gets a C from me for how he's led the program this season. 2-5 against non-Clemson winning teams is not good, but it could have very easily been 5-2 if a few plays went differently. A lot of the personnel and short term development has been out of his hands.
Is that enough to fire Fuente? I'd say yes *IF* you have a high tier candidate who will compete for ACC championships AND makes sense financially.
The budget hire of Will Healy does not fit this description. Throwing 4.5 at Matt Campbell plus 2-3 for support staff would be a baller move but we can't afford it (Fu's 10 mil buyout plus Campbell's 6 mil). The only hire that really makes sense is Jamey Chadwell: relatively cheap, recruits well, winner.
Most likely however, I think Fu demotes Corny and hires a better OC to make people happy. I don't think that would necessarily be a bad thing
I appreciate your optimism, but this sounds less of a "glass half full" take, and more like a "bong's half empty" one.
Maybe I'll use this as my signature moving forward.
This is one of the best sentences I've read.
What are your qualifications in assessing college coaching candidates? I genuinely am curious because when you post you are so matter of fact about all of your opinions like you have a background in said job.
Some people (myself included) do not think Healy is a 'budget hire.' I think he's an up and comer who can recruit the area and build relationships with fans/donors.
Yeah but so was Willie Taggart. To be clear, I'm not saying Healy "will definitely be a bad coach" but it's way more likely that he will fail than a proven commodity.
We have no idea his ceiling or floor, we don't know if his recruiting can translate, we have no idea if he can sustain success, and most glaring for me is we haven't even seen him turn a program into a winner yet. Whereas Chadwell basically created a 10-0 team out of thin air in Myrtle Beach.
Jamey Chadwell:
Will Healy:
Chadwell coaching tree scares me to death. We already tried the lightning in a bottle G5 guy and it didn't work
I hear this, but in my mind the only 'proven commodity' that is even remotely available to VT is Luke Fickell or Matt Campbell. Going through my list (in the OP of realistic coaching hires part 1) Tony Elliott, for example, has never been an HC, and has spent his entire career at Clemson. Venables has coached around a bit, but has never been an HC. Harsin would be a fantastic hire IMO, but he's never played an ACC strength schedule, has never recruited at an ACC level, and has never coached in the mid-Atlantic.
In my mind, Fickell and Campbell have the least risk of any coach VT could even hope to land, but after that, every candidate has some level of risk. Hiring a Healy or Leipold or Chadwell brings a different type of risk, but IMO it's just as risky as hiring someone who has never been an HC before.
You could add Tom Herman to the list of more proven if he becomes available. It sounds like Urban turned down Texas but depending on what message board boosters you read, Texas is still moving on from Herman. Maybe a big name program with big time expectations (ie we must win the national title every year) wasn't the right fit for Herman right now but a program the size of ours would be better suited.
Does he have a huge buy-out with an off-set clause?
There was a trend in MLB for awhile that players with huge salaries would be cut then go to a new team at a bargain price because there was no reason to pay a higher salary to trigger the off-set amount. Perhaps, if Herman gets fired, he might want to jump at an opportunity for a "bargain" price while Texas pays his buyout.
According to this, its a 15 mil buyout. Money is never an issue for Texas so they'll pay it for sure if they really want him gone. Now whether Herman would take a a slightly below market price at his next job (like us) because he has that stack of cash is unknowable. I figure he'll definitely have suitors so the price probably won't be cheap
https://247sports.com/Article/Tom-Herman-buyout-Texas-Longhorns-2020-con...
Ehh. Nothing about Herman's track record indicates he would be successful at Tech. I don't think its matter of the job being too big for him. He has every built in advantage when it comes recruiting and money at Texas and has only been to one Big12 championship game. Just don't see him as the type coach that can do more with less.
He did well at Houston, but I also don't want him here. He just has maturity issues. The flipping off the cameras, the trash talking urban meyer 2 years after he stopped working for him, etc. He's one of the smartest guys in the game, but he's just not a disciplined coached, and as a result, his teams aren't disciplined either, and as a result they underachieve.
If we are going to count almost wins as wins then you can make the argument that almost all middling teams in the ACC had a great year. Hell, BC was a play away from beating Clem and Syracuse was a play away from beating BC... Take a look at pitt's close games. Most teams have multiple play away games just like us...
I would love VT to hire Matt Campbell, but he will be a blue blood or NFL head coach within the next two seasons (probably next year).
I hate that the defensive staff recently hired could be affected by a new HC... I reall feel like there is a lot of potential for jham/tapp/teerlinck
Teerlinck is Fuente's guy, 100% chance he leaves under a new HC
I honestly wonder if Fuente hadn't had the Baylor dalliance earlier this year, if that would have bought him more goodwill with Whit. It's interesting to consider if that helps or hurts Fuente today with Whit's willingness to move on from him now.
Who knows - other schools could have used that against him on the recruiting trail ("don't go to VA Tech - Fuente may leave any time now since he's looking at other schools"). Not sure if it happened, but I could certainly see it happening, and with him being as close lipped about it and other stuff and not talking about it certainly wouldn't have helped.
TBH, things were starting to get pretty bad by the end of last season after the near collapse early on and losing to UVA and Kentucky to close out. I think Fu gambled a bit to try and buy himself some goodwill. He flirts with Baylor to try and show the admin that he is valuable and make the argument that he is held back by lack of resources. It was risky, but I think he was trying to buy time. He knew he had a good team returning in 2020, and he was probably thinking if he could pull off a good season or two, he could land a job back closer to home and get out of dodge before the effects of his shitshow recruiting started to be realized.
Unfortunately, everything completely fell apart on him this year, and it has become evident the major problem was him and his inability to make necessary changes to his staff/recruit.
It is ridiculous that people think it was some public stunt. There is absolutely zero chance Fuente didn't want that job, and zero chance he doesn't accept it if offered. The story out there is to cover up embarrassing truth. Fuente tried to leave, but he and his staff weren't good enough to land the job.
I've been saying this since it happened. Fuente wanted the Baylor job. It wasn't some three-dimensional chess ploy to get more money for the Athletic Department or the football program. That was the story they threw out to help Fuente save face.
When it was leaked that Baylor was interviewing Fuente, a non-insignificant number of big money Baylor boosters were very vocal about their disapproval of Fuente as their next head coach. They thought that they could do much better.
I don't fault Fuente for taking his shot, but the narrative that was spun out of him not getting the Baylor job just is not true.
Agreed, he was seriously interested. I've been thinking he wanted to get out of dodge for a little while now. I figure he thought he would either a) get the job and move on, or b) if he didn't, he could spin it as "look, other schools are interested in me, and I need more resources at VT to compete." Resources, although a very legit argument in the grand scheme, was weaponized against VT to buy him some additional goodwill. I'm sure things were getting pretty ugly by the end of 2019, and remember there was a lot of push for him to remove Corn at that point. I think he thought the additional goodwill of "I need resources" combined with what we thought on paper would be a great team in 2020, would give him the time to have a good year or two and get another job.
Totally agree about the narrative that came out of VT though. TSL basically then went on a huge campaign of telling this fan base to look in the mirror, and Fu took a shot across the bow of VT athletics to make us realize it's our fault we aren't succeeding. Reality was, Fu just isn't a good coach at this level, and Baylor was obviously smart enough to realize it.
"It was just a pitch."
"He was doing the right thing by listening to their pitch."
"Just like listening to a pitch for a time share."
Everyone went from being ready to run him out of blacksburg to drinking the thickest cool aid Whit could brew to defend the guy. It was a remarkable 180. There's a reason he didn't speak to the media afterwards.
Compare that to how Scott Satterfield is getting blasted and it's quite hilarious.
I mean, I agree he wanted the job, and I think he did a terrible job of dealing with the fallout, but I'll never fault someone for trying to improve life for themselves/their family. If I were him I would've taken the interview too.
Taking the interview wasn't the problem. It was the lies and excuses from him then the spin from everyone else here to justify everything that really stunk.
"Whit defending the guy"
That is funny. Through all this, basically since the Baylor thing was leaked, Whit has been pretty damn silent about just about anything to do with the football program.
via GIPHY
My opinion- Fuente's flirtation did him no favors with Whit. Again, no sourcing, but he showed up his boss (the narrative that came with Fuente's firtation was that he was frustrated with the lack of resources at his disposal, and Whit is the person responsible for getting him those resources.) Where I come from, making your boss look bad isn't a good idea, even if you get what you want in the short term.
Unfortunately, the "cheaper to keep her" strategy isn't working.
Sorry. I am a bit surley tonight. Please keep in mind, this is my gut instinct watching the situation from afar. I could be very wrong, and have no inside information to lead me to this conclusion.
I don't think we will ever know the truth. I will say, from what I have heard about coaching searches, once the face to face happens, you are the finalist. But, maybe Baylor wanted just Fuente, and he wanted his guys with him. Maybe an offer was never on the table. None of it really matters today. But, I would think that if he was truly doing everything he could to take the Baylor gig, Whit's decision next week is simple.
This blows my mind. So, what, Baylor doesn't know what his wins/losses were here? They didn't know anything about his recruiting classes? That he's not good with the media? Hell, at the time of the interview, they also knew they wouldn't be getting Bud as his DC. It was all some deep, dark secret until the interview? What do you think Baylor didn't know going into an interview that wasn't already public info and they still interviewed him. Generally, employers don't waste time and resources traveling halfway across the country to interview someone they think is a non-starter. You don't think they wanted him because you/we don't want him. The thing is he CAN win - he proved that in 2016. The question is why can't he do it consistently? Why is it not even plausible that he actually did turn them down?
If he turned them down, why didn't he have the balls to address the media after the fact?
Have you ever interviewed with someone and turned them down? Did you feel the need to call everyone you know after the fact to say you interviewed and didn't take the job? We already know, and knew well before that, that Fuente doesn't like talking to the media. Why do you think he'd volunteer to talk to the media about that. I think he would have preferred if nothing about it had ever come to light. And before you accuse him of leaking, look at all the other candidates the media reported that Baylor talked to (and no, Fuente wasn't apparently near the end of the list - I think he was closer to the front).
I really love comparisons between my everyday middle class job and Fuente's $4 million/year job. You know, where he gets paid to talk to the media and address stuff like this? You don't think a normal reaction to all that drama (assuming he turned them down) would have been "I'm flattered by Baylor's interest in me but I'm dedicated to continue the work I've started." Turns out he didn't need to, clearly.
Scott Satterfield absolutely butchered everything about interviewing with South Carolina but he at least owned it. Fuente didn't even have the balls to do that.
Either way, the most corroborated story I have heard was he had an offer but was rescinded because he wanted to bring his entire staff and Baylor was only going to allow a handful of guys. Take that for what you will, but your boy was ready to jump whether you like it or not.
The interesting thing is you ignored my most relevant point - that Fuente doesn't like talking to the media, and you seem to be using the thought that because he didn't address the media after the interview as de facto proof that he wasn't actually offered the job. That logic is flawed - badly. Because as has been well established, he doesn't like talking to the media.
Talking to the media is part of Fuente job. There are parts of my job that I don't like, but I still do them. He didn't have to be completely transparent, but he should've responded faster.
Edit to elaborate: The problem is not what Fuente said, it's that he took so long to say it. I get PR/Media isn't his thing, but he needs to know that about himself and have someone around him who can mitigate his weaknesses. It all goes back to his lack of awareness and his general Butch-Jones-iness.
I understand what you're saying and agree. Fuente sucks wIth the media. Also fans. Probably donors. I think our next coach needs to be someone who is engaging with the media, fans, and donors. The only thing I'm saying is you can't take Fuente not addressing the media immediately after talking to Baylor as proof positive that he wasn't offered the job.
Edit: if he NORMALLY talked to the media, I could see it being suspicious, but since he really doesn't like it, it seems more par for the course. And I understand it is part of his job, but as we've established, it's one more thing he's not good at and doesn't like doing (I wonder if he doesn't like recruiting but is forced into it?).
I don't care what he *likes* to do. I care about what he is paid to do and he did not do his job there. It blows my mind that you think his distaste for talking to the media is a solid defense for this.
And no I do not take it as de facto proof. I take that combined with a multitude of other signs that says he wasn't offered the job as a pretty good sign that he wasn't offered the job.
What, pray tell, are the "multitude" of other signs?
I dunno, maybe anyone close to the athletic department (see Skutt below) saying the same thing?
Honestly man, it's okay that he talked to them. You do not have the defend him any longer. He's 4-6 and on the way out.
We are the athletic department shareholders. We are his defacto employer. If you find out your employee was applying for other jobs, wouldn't you ask him what's going on and expect an answer?
When has Fuente EVER treated us, the fans, as shareholders and de facto employers? Not saying I disagree that we are - I 100% agree (through donating, attending games, buying merchandise, watching games on TV) fans pay for everything and are therefore "owners." Fuente just has never seemed to put that together and look forward to a coach that will. Back to my point - if he doesn't see us as employers, stakeholders, Fuente sees no need to give us any answers. #Makethemove
Yeah, trust me, the story put out by VT is not the whole story. A lot of smokescreens were put up to save face.
Please share at a later date if possible :)
Hopefully later this month when a certain coach is no longer our coach :)
skutt pls
(also this is prime content for its own TKPC thread)
https://footballscoop.com/news/2020-broyles-award-nominees-announced/
I'm also annoyed that Fuente didn't go after a proven defensive coordinator. On this list are Barry Odom who actually has a relationship with Fuente and also Zach Arnett who was actually hired for a few days by Syracuse and eventually ended up at MS State, I mean these are proven guys and we get JHam at a discount which is nice but I feel like we could have kept JHam as a safeties coach.
Interesting our Old O-Line Coach Jeff Grimes is on the List as the BYU OC. That's a great offense..nice to see.
Agreed. It was a lazy hire. We missed on Odom due to money then mailed it in with Hamilton then were told he's all we could afford. The spin was at a max.
The
End is
Coming
Understandingly
A relationship has been brewing for a while as the HokieClub is being reworked. Good things happen at the right time and this wouldn't shock me if true.
I know there's a code here. I can't crack it
Tight End Coach from the U ?
Don't overthink it that much. It's pretty obvious. Who have we been working with some in the background to revamp Hokie Club?
I know nothing about the hokie club so it's far from obvious for me
perhaps the IPTAY folks at Clemson
OMG! That would be okay with me, I think
TCU?
ECU? I'm so confused.
Tony
Elliot
Clemson
University
i would donate the moment this is announced
I also immediately translated it to this. Would make up for last night's debacle.
But the A at the end....
April Fools? Damn JUGS got us gooood /ssss
Somewhat risky, but being able to have a working relationship with Dabo while HC? Maybe getting a Venables protege as DC? This would be very exciting.
T.E. from C.U.?
Christian Fauria confirmed??
Come on JUGGS tell us what we need to know!!!! Lol
T
E
C
U
H
If I am reading the tea leaves correctly this gels with what I have heard as well
Tea leaves . . . . Tea . . . . . Tony Elliot confirmed
Same. Which I would be extremely excited for.
whoever is sytematically hitting tjb with the minus ones (even on posts where he's literally expressing excitement), kindly stop
kidding, it's not me
Thanks homie, good look.
No clue !!
Could it also be coming understandably?
I'm most curious about this part:
I believe that's referencing the meetings Whit has had with Clemson's AD regarding their IPTAY program.
Didn't know that meet happened, interesting that Clemson would want to help out? Rising tides and boats and such I suppose?
If I'm Whit, I'm going after someone who handles fundraising for Clemson.
Whoever their head of fundraising is, grab their right hand person or second in command and let them come into the HC and run things.
Clemson desperately needs someone else in the ACC to get their shit together so they can have big matchups. In any given year, Clemson is one fuckup away from being out of the playoff because the ACC sucks donkey ass, and there just isn't the opportunity to make up for a misstep. Having another team step up and become a perennial top team nationally would be a good thing for them, and in their best interests to help make happen.
It's also the case most support staff's will work with each other to see what is working and what isn't, at conferences etc. One because it's not like teams and coaches themselves won't work together and learn and share things out it builds relationships. That's one reason Tech keeps losing support staff to bigger jobs (promotions) because the use other schools know how they go about their job.
I still say we come up with some kind of totally original and non-copycat program called "IPTwAY," which incidentally would be short for "I pay TWENTY a year." Then we take over the CFB world - Pinky and The Brain style.
If only I could give you more than one leg for the Pinky and the Brain reference.
You absolutely love to read it.
Great insight. Glad you can share the nuggets you can with us, I appreciate that. But, and this is just my humble opinion, this would be a great value add to TKPC membership, if you dropped these nuggets behind the paywall.
You've clearly shocked me into next week.
that would definitely add to the value of TKPC, but she's not in TKPC
One can hope:
via GIPHY
Well have to pony up
Pony up for Tony
I C wut u did
If you would bring Todd Bates over with you that would be GRRRREEEAT! Plz...
Tony the Tiger....2 references for the price of one
Alright everyone if you haven't been IPTAYing now it's time to start.
Dumb question: By this you mean sign up for Hokie Club?
Not sure. I'm not entirely sure I know how the Hokie Club works. Does that mean you donate ten dollars more this year than you did last year? If that gets you into the club then yeah I think I did say that.
IPTAY isn't $10 anymore. More like $300
Yeah next year I think I pay like 170 or 180
Well, I for one, will not be donating to Clemson. But if the new whistle is the one that is being referenced here, I damn well will donate to VT
Ha! Right, but at the same time paying ten more this year than you did last year to VT then it would still help. Even if we don't get that one
IPTMEY: I Pay Ten More Each Year
IIMGBTEY: I Increase My Giving By Ten Each Year
IPTDTMDTIDLY: I Promise To Donate Ten More Dollars Than I Did Last Year
I guess it should have been 800% Hokie instead of 110% Hokie
So do we pull for ND to end clemsons season sooner so we can hire the new coach? maybe /s?
This may be the most difficult question I've ever been asked
Reminds me of southparks whole giant douche vs the turd sandwich dilemma
Meh, VT could use the payday that comes with having two ACC teams in the cfp. I think we root for Clemson to win in overtime.
So i'm seeing all the Tony Elliot talk. Read his bio on Clemson Athletics. Looks fine, but it's hard to judge someone when they're at a juggernaut school such as the Tigers. How much of the success is Clemson and how much of the success is because of Elliot. Looking forward to the analyses to follow if it is him in the end.
Knowing how that juggernaut was built, could he then bring that blueprint here?
Sure, but we thought Fuente knew how to build and develop a program and it hasn't taken off yet; I'm still somewhat of a Fuente apologist and don't think out failure in his tenure is completely his fault ,but I won't go off on a tanget on that. Point is, every new coach is promising based on his past efforts, but obviously not all end-up successful. I hope if he's our coach he is, but I guess we'll see.
It's a great counterpoint, but you face this question with pretty much every hire. We're lucky to have not been in this position very often.
Absolutely agree.
Hes been there long enough - I think he can see what a winning culture looks like - my only question would be who hed bring in as assistants - given it works out and hes the guy
My point to poster above is the same - Fuente had a pretty successful culture at Memphis and turned a program around. Elliot has known nothing but winning with Clemson save a "bad" year in 2011 where they still did remarkably well. Does he know how to turn a ship around?
I am with you on that - the only thing Elliott has that Fuente doesnt is every coach whos won a national championship in the last 10 years has coached on a team either as the head coach or an assistant thats played for a national championship before
tldr; coaches who've won nattys - have prior been on staffs who've played for nattys
**in Dabos case he played on the national championship team and then coached (GA) for that team - it works
Interesting point. +1
I see this more as a Jimbo Fisher to FSU type hire. FSU went from old glory to a 500 team, and Fisher took that 500 team back to a new glory. Had Jimbo and the administration gotten along better (great article by the way from last month), he'd probably still be there. He left, and FSU is now trash.
Fuente would have been a Brian Kelly type hire. If you look at Brian Kelly's trajectory, he proved he could win at every level, but he had to adapt once he got to Cincy, and adapted again at ND. He even had a losing season at ND, but made the necessary changes to build a machine and maintain it.
Fuente couldn't adapt, and stuck to his guns, and here's where we're at.
Interesting re Jimbo and FSU.
I don't quite agree re: Fuente not adjusting. I know i'm somewhat alone on this hill, but it's not easy a) replacing a legend b) replacing a 2nd legend in Foster 4 years AFTER you become coach and having to re-start the D from scratch c) trying to do all this during Covid and d) not having the resources to compete at the elite level.
TE is going to have all the same challenges sans replacing a legend - Covid probably will still take some sort of effect next year (hopefully not as bad), but still won't have Clemson-like resources to get recruits and staff.
I'm not sure I buy the resource argument completely. In any case, one thing Fuente has really failed to do is leverage the resources VT does have. He hasn't taken advantage of the media or engaged former players in a meaningful way. He has done almost the exact opposite of the "This is Home" refrain Whit is trying to push by completely closing off access. The VT football program isn't an inviting home. It's a walled off secret lair that nobody can get into. I hope the next coach realizes that the media can be leveraged in his favor. I hope the next coach is willing to engage fans and former players. I hope the next coach is willing to actually embrace the "This is Home" mantra.
That will go a long way towards righting the ship, IMO
Yeah I don't know why all the other ex-Hokies didn't warm up to him. I mean, i've heard the stories, but that doesn't still quite add up to me. It's been known Fuente isn't a personality coach, but I'd argue neither is Saban - it seems to be just all business. Doesn't mean that they both don't care about players, but they're non-emotional I guess.
But mainly by resources i'm talking about the big elephant in the room - money and infrastructure. Can he hire a good staff on the dime? Can our buildings be good enough to fend-off the elite?
Our offensive staff has changed 1 time after Wiggins left for Bama. Our defensive staff had the obvious change this year, but only a couple others since Fuente came on board. Mitchell, Nix, and Scott off the top of my head. That's not adapting.
Our playcalling is the same as it was in 2016. Exactly the same. That's not adapting.
Our recruiting is putrid. That's not adapting.
That's why I used Brian Kelly as an example. He's not coaching at ND, the same way he did at Cincy. It's not going to work, it's a different beast.
I'd recommend reading this subthread between me and HokieJoe, where he changed my mind, and convinced me to believe in Tony Elliott. In summary:
Thanks for the thread link. Interesting points but I'm not sold based on those argument points - but i'm not sold against either. It's easier to develop a team that's 10-15 in recruiting then it is 25-40. It's easier to cover up younger players errors and give them the chance to grow when you've got a NFL DL in front of you. I like the point re K'Von Wallace but what about other 3-stars in their program?
I hope he's a great coach for us (if he is it in the end), but I'm still iffy. Again, it's easier to look good at Clemson. Can he look good and make VT look good given Tech doesn't have Clemons resources / recruiting rankings / etc?
I hear ya. There's no such thing as a 'sure thing' in coaching hires - Jimbo, Harbaugh, Herman, and other 'slam dunks' are still struggling to meet expectations. Every hire out there has some risk, and you want to mitigate that risk as much as possible.
That said, I think your concern is well founded. Ideally, we'd find a candidate like Fickell, who has proven he can do more with less at Cincy, but has also seen how the sausage is made as a DC at OSU.
One thing to remember - JUGS hinted that this would be announced with a new Hokie Club program that would be similar to Clemson's IPTAY. If TE can help all parts of the university and athletic dept get aligned, like they did at Clemson, then we'll be in a good spot. But if we can't get to that spot... will TE still be able to find success? I don't know.
I don't think that was what she was saying. Last year, there was some talk of Whit beginning to work with Clemson to rework the Hokie Club. I think what she was saying was that relationship led to this.
They could definitely be announced at the same time though. My interpretation was that that relationship was key in getting Tony Elliot here.
You make a very good point. Would this be falling into the same trap so many SEC schools fall into? How many Saban assistants supposedly understand his process but can't translate it elsewhere? Would this hire be the same, but trying to implement Dabo's model?
I don't think we'd really know until we saw how the staff was constructed and interacted with fans, but it is a reasonable worry.
This is such a great question. How many schools in the SEC have tried to replicate what Alabama has? And how many have accomplished it?
How many schools are trying to replicate what Clemson has? And how many have accomplished it?
I would so much rather rant and rave on the message board about an 8 win season and how close we are to the peak then truly watch it all crumble.
I have had excitement every year that this MIGHT be the year for like 25 years. Even had it this year. Next year I will not because we are basically at rock bottom with no hope left. The recruiting has put the proverbial nail in the coffin.
Let's face it we are going to bitch regardless. Let's win 7-10 games a regular season and take a shit on the ODU's and Liberty's of the world. I will get the buzz going before the season starts and talk with the other old men that this might be the year. That's all I want.
Former Saban assistants hired as HCs in the SEC:
Muschamp, failed at Florida and SC
Jim McElwain, failed at Florida
Jeremy Pruitt, failing at Tennessee
Kirby Smart, elevated Georgia but no NC yet
Jimbo Fisher, Proved successful outside of the SEC doing well enough at A&M
Lake Kiffin, Ole Miss is more fun this year I guess
Only Chad Morris and Jeff Scott have been hired as HCs after working for Dabo. Morris did ok at SMU and then failed horribly at Arkansas. Scott is in his first year of a tough rebuild with USF.
Its a legit argument but at some point you have to try something else when whats going on is as bad as its getting and looking worse down the road. I'm not saying fire fuente solely because the grass should be greener on the other side, its more of a we can surely be doing better than this and some times you have to take a chance. If TE was a shorter tenured coach I'd have a bigger concern but hes been around a bit longer than some of the other guys.
I wasn't trying to say we should be keeping Fuente around. Just raising a question to consider when looking at candidates. He's definitely a strong option and I wouldn't be disappointed. But, he does come with concerns just like any other candidate.
The dude has been around a successful program and has been around some of the best recruiters in the game. I truly believe, IF hes hired, we will at the very least see a drastic uptick in recruiting.
That's how I feel, I mean shit it can't be anything other than up from being unable to recruit the right players and losing to instate teams time and time again.
The difference between Saban and his numerous failed assistants are that none of the assistants are able to innovate; they are convinced that the only way to play football is a prostyle offense and a stupid good defense. Muschamp, Kirby, Pruitt, Dantonio, have all failed to meet expectations because they refuse to innovate. For some reason, these 4 dumbasses in particular all seem to believe that anything more wild than the forward pass is way too kinky for what their into.
Other failed Saban Disciples (McElwain, Dooly) just weren't smart enough to replicate the process.
Saban on the other hand, has innovated time and time again. He was able to see that in today's game, offenses have an advantage, and he rebuilt his team and staff around that.
If Tony Elliott comes here, and can be adaptive, he will succeed. If he cannot adapt and innovate, he will fail.
I completely agree. So my worry is - if he's hired will he be trying to create a carbon copy of Clemson or will he apply what he's learned to what VT has to offer? Again, we wouldn't know until we see a staff assembled. For all of Fuente's faults, I do think he was smart in recently hiring some former Hokies in the QA and recruiting department who understand the school and how it can be sold. That's something I'd probably keep my eye on when looking at a new coach's assistants.
Yea, I agree that is the question. But ultimately, every coach we land will have this question mark (or a similar question mark) next to his name. I think Elliott is good hire. We will see (1) if it actually happens and (2) if it works out.
Agreed. FWIW, mostly coaches keep one member from the previous staff on (Think Beamer and Billy Hite).
this introduces an interesting nuance.
Beamer was a HC at Murray State before being hired at VT. Fuente was a HC at Memphis before being hired at VT. Elliott, should he be hired, has not been a HC.
Elliott doesn't have an assembled staff to even bring with him to Blacksburg. This will be his first rodeo in building out his staff which is a pretty big departure from previous coaching candidates at VT. Does having a blank slate bode well or not?
My understanding with Beamer and his infamous talk with David Braine is that Braine essentially told Beamer that he had to let his buddies on the staff (who presumably came with him from Murray State) go and hire more qualified individuals. Beamer acquiesced and the rest is history. Fuente, similarly, brought his buddies with him from Memphis and it can certainly be argued that they have been in over their heads (Cornelson in particular). Had he decided to let Cornelson go and hire a more qualified OC we may not be having these debates.
So I'm wondering how that will work out if we go in the direction of hiring a guy who will be a first time HC. He won't have his buddies to bring with him from his Murray State or Memphis. So will he be forced to hire qualified candidates right off the bat? I think it could be a good thing for VT. We shall see.
Here's the analysis:
If he can recruit well at VT he will most likely be successful. If he cannot, he absolutely will not be successful.
Period. End of analysis.
And our recruiting can't get any worse. Having an African American coach can only as well. I would be stoked if TE was our next coach. Like mentioned above, if he (or whoever we hire) uses the resources we already have (e.g. media and not shutting everyone out) that alone with improved recruiting would be a decent step forward.
Thanks, captain obvious. And don't forget - if he can develop players he will most likely be successful. If he can't, probably not.
It's a good thing i'm paying TKP to give me a better analysis than you.
Nope... Player development is what you try to sell when you sign classes full of option C and D developmental guys with no other P5 offers. You could be a developmental genius and you'll never get me to run a 4.4 40 or squat 600lbs or cycle through 4 check-downs in less than 2 seconds while taking a snap and backpedaling as 1500lbs of front five are screaming at me.
People want to make things more complicated than they really are. Being a successful P5 he'd coach is 90% selling the program and the other 10% is basically don't hire assholes and know how to use timeouts.
Recruiting well is the baseline for any P5 school that expects to compete for championships. The rest only matters if you have the horses to get there.
If coaches had unlimited time with these guys then sure, development might matter more. But they don't, so it doesn't.
So you're telling me if we get a coach that recruits well and doesn't develop them that we'll be successful? hmmm.........
More successful than we are currently
That's complete conjecture. You have no idea if we simply recruited better players with a different coaching staff if they'd develop them and make them play better. It's the easy thing to say right now when you're raw, but you know inherently you're wrong.
If a coach recruits well his players won't need as much development so, yeah.
We can revisit the significance of player development once we're recruiting top 20 classes and barely losing to Clemson in the ACCCG or some top 10 team in a New Years day bowl game every year. Then player development will matter. As will the rest of that 10%.
Man you say that like it is easy. Recruiting is definitely a top priority but it is hard, not quick, and gives you no guarantee of success.
There's absolutely no guarantee that if we start getting top-20 classes that we'll stop barely losing to Clemson in the ACCCG or some top 10 team in a New years day bowl game every year. Tom Herman, Jim Harbaugh, and i'm sure i'm missing others are great examples of that. Even Miami under Randy Shannon and other coaches when they had top-5 recruiting ranks couldn't do shit against us when we developed our players better.
My only point is you want a coach that can recruit AND develop. I sure as hell don't want a coach who just gets great talent and then squanders them all the time. Imagine turning into a mediocre version of Tennessee or something.
and if you dig some you find statements by Dabo that could lead one to believe that Todd Bates as maybe equally or more important to their success. It could be seen as it's a Clemson thing.
For me as being out of the loop on some of this. Why are some of you so high on Tony Elliot, the Clemson OC?
The reasons I have seen are generally around...
Has nothing to do with how good of a coach he is but he's realllly close to Dabo. Seems like a really good guy, humble but personable, and open - watch some of his post game interviews if you get a chance. He's also pretty young still has a lot of connections.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcrrtj-gnXA
Personally I like him and wouldn't be upset with that hire but I would like to see a really dominant personality and recruiter rather than an X and Os guy which I think he is more of but with a better personality than Fu.
My biggest concern with TE would be his coaching tree. Idk the connections he's made, but he's spent most of his time at a program that has not seen a lot of turnover. He'll need to hire strong X's & O's coordinators and I just don't know what his options are or who he knows....
Bright side: He won't bring in people that he knows, so that if they underperform he'd be fine firing them.
If the next guy is Tony Elliot, I'm sure his connections aren't quite as broad as some coaches with HC experience. If that is true, I wonder if he would consider keeping Vance Vice. The dude is the only one killing it on the recruiting trail and doing a decent job of developing his players.
I would assume it's more about what does Vice want to do?
But we have to assume that he WANTS to unhitch his wagon from FuCorn, just as the passengers on the Titanic WANTED to get off the ship. Regardless, he has carved out a bright future in coaching in the middle of a dumpster fire, so he deserves whatever good things the future holds for him.
WAIT!
I heard Elliot had an engineering degree but no one told me it was industrial engineering. I have two of those degrees. Sounds like they're being awarded based on the two-legs = one-degree scale.
I like him more and more that I hear about him. I'm thinking he and I are going to get along just fine.
Maybe he can invent our future
We are setting ourselves up for another epic meltdown when this is all just a rumor and Fuente is back next year
I won't melt down. I'll stop participating on here, I won't watch any football games next year, and any interest in Tech football may die entirely.
A very large percentage of fans say that now, but I don't believe it. It is a drug you can't escape.
Let me feel my own pain.
It is a drug you can't escape.
This was the Redskins to me for the better part of my life. I dropped them cold, and the NFL, five years ago. Couldn't be more freeing. If Tech continues this slide, it could happen.
100% true here.
When I moved to California, my interest in Redskins began to wane more heavily due to continued poor management. I regained interest with RG3's phenomenal rookie year (even went to the game in Philly) but my interest just ended completely with the way RG3 was handled and continued mismanagement. I haven't had an itch to crawl back yet.
If VT continues to mismanage, I can easily see my fanhood wane. We'll see.
(I'm also a U of Southern California alum, so the allure of trading fanhood to a blueblood is there.)
It's not just that - I've been having more and more stuff competing for my time, so if we sign up for another year of mediocrity, it'll be easy for me to give my time to something else. I don't want to, but may go that route.
can confirm
I wouldn't stop participating here, but Fu staying another year is going to be the end of our passion for football. Unless he magically strings 10 win seasons and a shot at the ACC reach year, attendance will drop, TV slots will disappear, donations will drop, etc. Then Whit has to answer to Sands and the BOV on why they should give him more money.
This will make me very sad
FTFY
Honestly, would be a relief. I keep asking myself why I am watching 2 hours of commercials on a Saturday while two non-profit organizations play a game. Blunting the emotional attachment would clear some of that up so I don't have to suffer through any more TD-Commercial-Kickoff-Commercial-Two plays-Injury-Commercial hell-scapes.
Don't forget the replays
They drive me up a wall! CFB needs to adopt the NFL system yesterday. An 8-yard gain that wasn't even a first down in the second quarter does not matter enough to stop the entire game for 5+ minutes to get confirmation on a call the refs on the field clearly got right. Scoring plays, turnovers, and that's it.
XFL replays > all other football replays
I remarked yesterday to my wife while I was watching the 1998 UVA/VT game on TV how it was such a quick decision when a questionable call/play occurred.
Questionable catch against the ground: 5 referees huddled together, talked for 5 to 10 seconds, and made a decision and placed the ball for the next play.
I won't melt down. Melting down would indicate an emotional investment in the team.
Right now, I'm not emotionally invested anymore. I'm numb to the program right now. If he's around next year, I'll just find something else to do on Saturdays, I really won't care.
Article about the upcoming game with UVA from Norm Wood: https://www.dailypress.com/sports/college/virginia-tech/vp-sp-hokies-sen...
A win against UVA couldn't possibly be enough justification to not #makethemove...right?
I think if he's going to be fired it's already a done deal and this game isn't going to change anything either way. If he wins, though, it's basically just a job interview for his next gig. He badly needs to win this game with style points as something to point to to his next prospective employers.
Hadn't considered that, it could very well have a big impact on his future, even if he already done here.
With how this season's gone, we need to focus on winning the game with regular points before we can even begin to consider style points....
Oh I'm not saying that I'm expecting or even hoping for this to happen. I'm just making the point that JF is coaching for his future. Not necessarily his future at VT, but his future in general. And if he wants to land a job somewhere he's going to need a big win to help him get there. But the general sense I've gotten from him in his 5 years is that he's not aware of how important this game is to his own future prospects. So it wouldn't shock me at all to see the team come out flat and look pretty listless, even if we win.
IF rumors that Whit has already raised buy out money are true, then the decision has been made. If donors are waiting to see what happens this game, then a win could potentially save Fuente.
this is an interesting point. I could see how that would be the case. Ideally, VT wins the game and still move on from Fuente. I've seen enough to know that Fuente isn't going to elevate the program. He hasn't even been able to maintain the status quo from the waning Beamer years. Recruiting is a very strong indicator that things are not getting better any time soon. If VT wins and that's enough to save his job I will have a very grim outlook on the future of VT football. I'm not going to root for a loss to UVa. Absolutely can't do it. But if losing that game is the only way Fuente will be fired then we don't deserve to win that game this year or for many years to come. That hurts to type. If our leadership is that fickle, we don't have the backbone required to be the dominant force in Virginia that Beamer established.
As frustrated as some of our players may be, I don't think it would be anywhere enough to see them not come out and want to destroy UVA. Coaching will be what holds us back. At this point, hopefully Corny will go for more variety, risk passing, etc. I don't think they'll be able to blow our socks off. I mean, the Clemson game was closer than it looked. We gifted them how many points? We were having success at the end of the first half moving the ball, and very well may have been able to score if we hadn't been playing to not turn the ball over rather than playing to score. I guess I still have some optimism, but mostly because it's UVA we're playing.
If we win, we'd have to win like 80-3 to give Whit pause in changing coaches at this point. Recruiting has been too bad, offensive play calling has been too bad, inconsistent performance, frustration amongst fans is insanely high. I mean if we won more games this year, even with everything else, maybe we would have kept him. Like if we'd only lost 1 game, despite COVID, but a win against UVA will we way too little and definitely too late to make a difference keeping him.
I laughed way too hard at this. Wasn't sure where the best place to share would be. Please don't take this as political just because there is a political figure in it.
Was one of those all Americans covering the Liberty receivers in the second half?
was anybody?
No they both basically opted out. One because no one in charge took covid seriously.
If you're gonna post my meme at least give me credit, or embed the tweet 😩😩😩
you now have a new follower
Thanks partner i hope to deliver more quality memes in the future.
You made that? Well done!
Did you find it on Twitter or was it shared somewhere else lol
I saw it on twitter, didn't take notice of who posted it though, didn't embed cause then you gotta click it to expand. Not trying to claim credit, not worried about that, thought it was funny, wanted to share
All good lol I am a memer of the people
people on here been reposting my original content for years. some in good spirit, some claiming they originated it and taking the kudos.
Barton & Bud Podcast spent the first 13 minutes talking about VT HC job. Barton thinks it's the #1 job in the Coastal and very desirable to potential hires.
https://podcasts.google.com/?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vYm...
Even a 38-0 bro-ing of an average UVA squad will not save Fuente. The rot is too deep. I'm more interested to see whether or not they can get up for this game. It's a very strange feeling to want to win, but to already be accepting of a loss, because of the outcome it *should* force.
Anyone who thinks a coach should be fired during a COVID season is out of their minds.
Let's look at some facts:
Our defense has been slipping each of the last few years so our hall of fame defensive coordinator retires and puts forth a young superstar in the making to be the new dc. Young kid has all sorts of plans for greatness but he has to change the old ways. He's prepping his new system then out of nowhere a pandemic rolls in. Everything is shut down. Boom no spring install. Eventually the summer comes around and he can start his implementation. Except his kids are being exposed to covid left and right and can't practice consecutive weeks in a row. So the defense comes out and has its woes. Every single one could have been predicted. Then the season happens and with it the offense we were expecting shows up. The game plans are simple, score more than the other team. But the plan hinges on the defense making one or two stops much like years prior. Weird plays happen, close games are lost and the what if's of covid free season remain. If we don't have covid this past season and Hamilton has his crew at full strength and we can't win with solid defensive showings, then yes Fuentes seat is hot. Judging a man on season when he is just trying to keep his team healthy and consistently practicing. Be happy the season happened. It shouldn't have. Hell students should have never returned to campus. But here we are, staring at a losing season. Fighting amongst ourselves because our team didn't win enough games. There are bigger things we should be angry about. I for one am focused on them and will give Fuente the benefit of the doubt in a time that maybe just maybe the victory of this season is being able to just play the game.
Be happy we went 4-6 not 0-0 guys!!!
definitely not "fire guy"
By the end of next week
Bold move coming on TKP to basically call out the entire site as being "out of their minds."
Yea I figured it would go over well. I stand by it though. I've seen the program from close up for a decade now, and I've never felt any of the doom and gloom. Even in beamers closing years with lefty I wasn't pessimistic. You could see how the inconsistency at Oline hurt the offense. Unfortunately that couldn't be remedied before his retirement. The past five years with Fuente you are finally seeing the fruits of having the same guy coach the Oline. Other problems have cropped up but they aren't unsolvable. I firmly believe that if we had a crowd in lane this year we are winning against liberty and Miami. The stadium has felt truly empty each game this year. Sure the skipper's boom has a lot more punch, but the energy of the fans is desperately missed. The big moments have been there, but the explosion of the crowd isn't. It feels more like a high school game where the only fans are the parents. Yea they cheer but the terror dome just isn't the same. My hat goes off to the skeleton crew working the games. It's not all that fun to sit in a booth with the windows open to circulate the air when it's around freezing but we do it because we love it. Driving from all over to work a game in the middle of a pandemic is tough, but this team is worth it.
I have my doubts...Fans in Lane don't help recruiting...or play calling...there are deeper problems than fans in the stands
I firmly believe that if we had a crowd in lane this year we are winning against liberty
So we need fans to help our coaches and players to defeat the Fighting Falwells. That right there, says it all about this coaching staff.
I might be able to give you Miami, but the Liberty game should never have been that close for the crowd to matter.
No pressure, but if you feel comfortable would you be able to elaborate on your involvement with the program? We've all been wondering what's in Whit's mind, and I think the atmopshere that you described and your sentiments may be telling. I know everyone is pissed about losing, and Im not gonna be upset if we move on, but I have to wonder if on the inside the season has been a write-off from the start and Whit was going to give Fuente another year regardless.
In a sense I think this is fair, but I also worry that with recruiting where it is its gonna be hard to recover. And recruits aren't gonna be too concerned with the hows and the whys of the current state of the program, i suspect. Looking at an uphill climb for another 4 seasons minimum even CJF gets everyone back and gets things on track next year.
Does anyone even have the energy to fight this anymore lol?
If the laundry list of evidence isn't enough for you than I am not sure what to tell you. Come in here and call all of idiots if it makes you feel better.
Haha I don't think so, if the past 3 years weren't enough to change your mind then nothing will. I think the majority of the fanbase is on the same page and counting down til 12/16.
On top of everything else over the course of the CJF tenure, if having our once proud program beaten by LIBERTY doesn't convince you, nothing will. No more excuses, we've seen enough.
Are you Fu's mom?
Nope. Just a fan, optimist, and a Hokie.
And you think the rest of us can't be those 3 things while simultaneously realizing one of our favorite things on earth needs to make a change or it may fail? (Beyond repair)
You clearly have a deep emotional attachment to the program which is great as do I but flat out ignoring the glaring signs that this relationship isn't working in the name of optimism and being a hokie doesn't help your football team anymore than people screaming for Fuentes head.
A change will be made it's pretty obvious I think but I guess we will find out sooner rather than later.
Whether or not he should be fired for this year doesn't matter. He should be fired because the 2020 enrollees 2021 recruiting classes don't have enough top to bottom talent to achieve any of our goals.
See I would be with you if this year were an outlier. Every year under Fuente's reign the program has regressed and gotten worse. We now no longer beat the teams that we're supposed to beat, and that didn't start this year. We getting outpaced by a long shot on the recruiting trail....have been for years. That's not on covid. That's on this staff, for whatever the reason may be, not being able to land big recruits. You wanna stick it out a few more years? It's just gonna get worse cause we don't have the talent coming in to keep up with UNC, UVA, Pitt. We've got the 11th rated class out of 14 coming in this year, last year it was 14 out of 14.
Dumping Fuente now is not solely about the product put on the field this season, though that helped to grow the frustration in the fanbase. Doing it now means we can attempt to turn things around before the program really hits rock bottom.
Everyone dealt with COVID this year. Pretty much everyone did a better job of dealing with it than we did.
Tired of the excuses. This is a results driven business and for the last 4 years the results are trending in the absolute wrong direction. In any other job, he would have been terminated by now. Its time to let him go.
I'd argue that our lax covid management (which caused tons on of other issues) is a perfect example pf the terrible management on other areas
...and puts forth a young superstar in the making to be the new dc. Young kid has all sorts of plans for greatness but he has to change the old ways.
What kind of young adult J-Ham fan fiction is this? What about this guy screams "superstar" to you? He seems like a good guy and he's a Hokie, but he was handed the majority of returning starters on the 45th defense from 2019 and ran that car off the road. Not a single top 250 player bought into his vision yet. And he's insisting on a full defensive rebuild, which wasted a once-in-a-decade rushing attack. I'm sorry but he's the James Johnson of this staff. He is in well over his head.
J'ham didn't inherit a ton of talent that actually played. And has been pointed out numerous times by our beloved expert French, the talent that did actually play has been woefully out of shape and not terribly committed to effort on the regular.
He's implementing a new system, well, because it's his system. Why wouldn't he do that? He had no Spring practice. He had no Fall practice. Heck, he wasn't even with the team when practice and games started. He's a wanted commodity (at least with Dabo Swinney), seems to have a good head on his shoulders and his players love him. Time will tel if he really is a good coach. I'm glad he got to cut his teeth here at VT, I just hate that it happened during a lame duck year.
I keep seeing people say we didn't have fall practice but we actually had like six weeks of fall camp because the season started so late lol.
Well, it's been widely reported that since the team dealt with COVID for such a long time they really didn't have time together. Fuente stated a number of times that they always had guys, but never all the guys. VT really didn't have Fall practice.
We started fall camp on august 10. It wasn't till about a month later they had to cancel the NC state game. There were a few cases here and there it seems, but there was not outbreak till the week ending with September 12.
It's so funny how I got raked over the coals for suggesting there were some covid cases in our program in early September and people said "we don't know that." Now we want to play revisionist and say we had no fall camp.
I'm not playing revisionist at all. I don't think you'll find a single post of my suggesting this.
We had to cancel our first game. Fuente stated that J'Ham got zero time with the team prior to the season. I don't know the exact dates when everything started (Fuente is now talking about how they've been grinding since July). I'm simply stating that even if the team was "practicing", Fuente has make it clear that they got almost no practice as a team leading up to the season.
We had fall practice, but we missed spring practice, and a whole offseason of lifting/training. An extra few weeks of disjointed fall camp doesn't make up for that.
Okay, I admit I laughed at the fan-fiction comment. That was funny.
Many people have compared Bud's scheme to the triple option; it's a unique scheme that no one else runs. A scheme change takes reps. I was one of the few people here who expected a small drop off pre-covid, but a fairly significant drop off once it was clear that spring football and summer training were not happening.
I'm not saying JHam is the next Bud Foster, but I also think it's at best premature, at worst hyperbolic to compare Hamilton to JJ.
I have to agree here. I love J Ham and think he has a lot of potential, but the spin cycle that came out justifying his incredibly premature move to DC was ridiculous. Great guy, great Hokie, but was put in a terrible spot and moved into a position where he was set up to fail.
You're trippin fam! Farley, Garbutt, Hunter were all lost before season. Our defense is suspect because we whiffed on more defensive prospects than offensive in Fuente's tenure. Dax, Garbutt and Hunter are the only 4 star defensive recruits I can think of since Fuente took over. Anybody that judges Hamilton off this past season is selling him extremely short. Too early for me to judge him as a DC. Let him get two years and I'll be able to judge him based on his recruiting classes and on field perfomance.
Tisdale, Connor and Alec Bryant are four stars. Chatman was damn close to being one. Proctor and Rivers were both four stars but it didn't pan out for them.
Fuente isn't getting fired because of COVID.
In 5 years he's rubbed plenty of people the wrong way, pissed off his AD, alienated the fan base & failed his team.
Carry on
I see nothing wrong with any of these points and uplegged it. No idea why it's been so downlegged. Might be wrong but it isn't unreasonable.
It may be the first line, calling almost everyone on here out of their minds.
Devil's Advocate: Mike Patrick said we were losing our minds and everyone enjoys it.
VT-Miami 2011
*Watches video. Shotguns Natty Lite. Punches hole in wall* Ready to smack down UVA
Man I'm with you on the first part but when you start rambling about how defense has to make plays, that's where I'm lost.
Look whether it's football or any other sport, if the offense has quality possession which leads to scores, the defense will be in much better ability to handle even a potentially strong offense.
Instead what I'm seeing over the last 4 years is that we continue to have turnovers which means coaches aren't working on the fundamentals. 2. There is barely any scoring on offense in the 2nd half. 3. The play calling is too predictable even for a non-football fan. Off the field Fuente stays very quite and private (this hurts the program because we aren't marketed by the coach), there are no high level recruits coming here and I don't want to hear this excuse that Blacksburg is in the middle of nowhere so are almost all the schools in the south. Then there the issue of player development or lack there off, when you get 2-3 star guys you got to develop them into better players.
At this point it's too many negatives, we have to make the move.
If the head coach would have recruited some more ACC level from 7 players over the years, the new DC wouldn't be in such a bind.
I just watched the Jeff Hafley interview on The Huddle and that guy is so well spoken I was astonished by it... I bet he's going to end up being a great recruiter for BC.... He already is in year one with covid.
Well kevin sumlin is on the market for free? Maybe fire cornelson and hire him as OC?
His muffing of Khalil Tate makes me wanna say no. Losing 70-7 to Arizona State makes me say absolutely not.
So important trivia question that leads to news from #sauces....what family has 2 dorms named after them?
reeves?
Ambler-Johnston. East and west.
Ambler Johnston
Wednesday will be a new beginning apparently although they didn't buy a 3rd dorm.
Do elaborate
Donor stepped up and took care of business.
Eggleston?
Pearson
Never mind. It said dorms. Not buildings. I'm a fool.
Yikes.
Go Hokies.
Who was getting stomped out at the end? Looked liked 41. Fuck those Hoos.
I must admit I was cringing during the game hearing the commentators try to make excuses for Mitchell's muff by saying he was out there because Covid took away our usual returners...in actuality Mitchell is the starter now because our usual returners (who are healthy and playing in the game) have also muffed punts. At what point is having a returner drop a punt once a game the Special Teams Coach's fault?
Ok. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Fuente
Are you talking about the following comment in the "Coaching Career" section?
Maybe 😳
Chad Morris as OC?
We're not outbidding auburn for him.
Looks like we won't have to outbid them anymore
Well that comment aged like milk.
Jeff Grimes train TOOT TOOT
Whatever happens next year, whether Fuente is out or retained with forced changes from on high, I would hope that we'd consider bringing in Todd Washington.
He's 44 years old, grew up in VA, and one of the best VT OL to ever play in Blacksburg.
As a pro-player: 8 seasons in the NFL including a Super Bowl championship with the Bucs.
As a coach: OL coach for University of San Diego, coached in the UFL, on the Ravens coaching staff (OL Coach) for their Super Bowl in 2013 (one of only 13 people to win a SB as a player and coach!), and now with the Jets...who will likely be cleaning house after this year.
Bring him in as your OL coach assuming Vice leaves with Fuente.
I like that and I'll raise you Chris Beatty. He's landed 757 players everywhere he's been including 3 '21 guys this season for Pitt. He's coached RBs or WRs everywhere so if Fuente is sent packing, I'd love to see him take over one of the two and get us back relevant across the water.
Gus Malzahn is available. That's interesting.
I'd rather not
Demetrious Davis tho
DD be sticking with Auburn for the superior academics. /s
Gus is a great guy, a real good recruiter and decent enough coach, but he isn't coming to B-burg, And I don't think we want Chad Morris, he bombed at Arkansas and was not real impressive with a lot of talent at Auburn.
I think we'd want chad morris at OC tho
Would take for sure. This would be quite a statement hire by VT.
No doubt VT would be thrilled, if Gus had interest and if we could afford him. Two insurmountable ifs, IMHO.
He's about to get $21 million, we could give him some spare change and he should be just fine.
Malzahn is like just like Fuente; offensive genius but not able to sell a program. Fortunately for him, Auburn sells itself (or at least the boosters sell it to recruits). VT is not Auburn. He would not be successful here (as a head coach at least).
Offensive genius is a stretch for both of them
I feel like Gus has a very specific offense and has a hard time finding other coaches that mesh well with it.
I'd be open to him coming to Tech, however I wonder if he'll take the Arkansas State job now that it's open. He was successful there and he's only coached at two schools.
News flash, Butch Jones took the Arkansas State job last night - all the players were immediately promoted to champions in Life.
Thought this was interesting. It's the first time I can recall a national media member mention friction between Whit and Fuente. Really, any media member mention it. I've only seen it alluded to on unsourced message board posts.
if this is true, I don't see how he can possibly survive the week. Hell, I don't see how he would survive past the moment the buyout drops
FWIW, Godfrey and Bruce Feldman have both mentioned this on their respective podcasts.
I feel like I remember Godfrey talking about this on podcast ain't played nobody even before the Baylor thing...but my timeline recollection could be off.
Something about coaching hot seats and how Fuentes was a lot warmer than fans knew - Godfrey, Feldman, and Wolken combined is pretty heavy smoke at this point
On SZD yesterday Godfrey also mentioned (for the first time I can remember) that VT might have some money issues, and that as a result, Fuente might've saved his job after UVA.
2 days until we get some answers...
The Annual Review last December was a mess.
Anything specific (outside of the obvious sub-par performance) that came up that you know of?
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I've seen a few comments about keeping Vice on staff if a change is made. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but his entire family moved to Memphis so his son could play high school basketball earlier this year. I'm not sure he'll want to be away from his family another year, just a thought.
a pay raise could convince him otherwise.
Should've sent his son to Oak Hill
So if it started raining Frosted Flakes in BBurg, when would the new coach be able to join the team? After the Playoff?
Looking at the forecast, Wednesday actually looks like the day for that.
IF TE was the next HC, it depends on what they negotiate. Whit may say come now and start recruiting or let him finish the playoff run.
All but confirmed Fuente is on his way out.
Any further info on who may be taking his place?
Care to give some hint's on the source of your confidence to maybe bolster the reputability of it?
Sauce?
That confirmed?
Forget the flight tracker, we need someone on Christmas decoration watch.
That's a fake tree....
Go on.....
We're going to need a picture of a Christmas tree on the side of the road for proof /s
edit: glug glug
came here to post an exec in our industry dropped a donation for the new coach
Do the Tony Elliot rumors have any legs at all or just wishful thinking based on dug up connections? I can't imagine Whit would fire CJF without someone lined up. Being stuck with what is left to pick from is a really bad situation to be in.
I'd say its got legs at this point. A lot of the people that generally have some kind of sources on this website and other websites (not just randos, people with good reputations) all seem to be saying something similar. At the very least, Fuente's tenure is coming to an end.
Somewhat Cryptic comment from Jugs hinted that Tony Elliott is the next coach
Don't know if that account really has a credible history of having sources. Just a heads up, since we usually try to avoid embedding tweets coming from random fan accounts.
to be fair, lol
B.A.G. used to be a longtime member of the TKP community. Not random for Alum to embed here.
I've said it a few times before, and at the expense of repeating myself... If he reports something with credible substance, please feel free to share. If it's nothing more than speculation, please don't because it's noise.
BAG having credible substance? More like, Just wait it is gonna be good, then a month later, see that 3 star kicker silent committed weeks ago.
Moreso commenting on the "random" part. Point taken about noise tho
Could be wrong, but something about that account just seems a little fishy to me. Don't personally think it's the same person as the BAG from TKP. Either way it doesn't bother me too much, I just know it's best practice to not post every tweet from non-official sources, and I wanted to throw out that account seems questionable to me.
He stated on twitter he's not the same guy, but has access to the program, which I'm assuming is through his photography.
And when that access results in him reporting something original, credible and substantial, please feel free to embed and post, otherwise let's treat it as noise and not. 🍻
Question: if(when) it happens, does it happen at 12:01 am or early in the morning like 7-8 am?
Does the buyout drop at the end of the day today?
I thought it dropped at the end of the day tomorrow
I am curious how this happens. Does Fuente have annual review with Whit on his outlook calendar, and Whit's going to break the news then? Did Whit put Fuente on a PIP after last season, and they've been having weekly one-on-ones all season? Does Whit even talk to Fuente, or just communicate with his agent? Does Whit hire an outside consulting firm to fire Fuente? Is he going to get fired over zoom? Is someone going to clean out his office?
If that was the case JF should have taken the Baylor job. I have never seen anyone ever come back from being put on PIP. PIP is just a CYA that HR makes you put on someone before you fire them, at least that has been the case in my experience.
I don't think he had that option
Art Briles just resigned from his high school he has been coaching at the last few years, rumor is for the liberty Job. Hugh heading down a little further southwest?
I heard through a 2nd hand #sauce last week that Freeze was being targeted but didn't want to believe it
Ew... just, ew.
I...I don't know what I would do if we hired Hugh Freeze. This would be akin to being a hokie during the years when Beamer was making excuses for Marcus Vick before they finally kicked his ass to the curb. How do you balance being a hokie for life with refusing to cheer for a coach who makes your skin crawl?
If we hire freeze, I will not go out of my way to watch another VT football game until he is fired years from now or retired from the program.
Just gross. 🤮
I don't know about you guys, but I feel like a kid on Christmas Eve!
CZY on 24/7 reported that it's not Tony Elliott :(
They are saying No Elliott, No Fickell.
::nervous laughter::
Not questioning the validity of the 24/7 comment (just curious), but could you provide a link?
linky
(non paywall stuff)
https://247sports.com/college/virginia-tech/board/59428/Contents/smoke-t...
He's also on TKP, but as Joe has stated above and previously, we have rules on posting things like this....
So I guess we should start sad drinking , huh? Dammit
I don't know who this CZY is, but I don't like them
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Why do I have this feeling Fu's staying but some major staffing changes and resource allocations are happening
Apparently our fan base has not learned from its previous 20+ lessons about jumping to conclusions with little to no facts. I swear, I'm starting to think y'all like the pain of disappointment.
It's a fanbase, what did you expect?
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We wouldn't be in this place trying to figure out what the hell will happen if VT didn't drop the motto, Invent the Future.
Virginia Tech fired head coach Justin Fuente Tuesday afternoon. Sources indicate the leading candidate for the newly opened position is former Virginia Tech head coach Justin Fuente.