Another Fall Saturday and another reminder of just how far this Virginia Tech football program has fallen. I suspected that the post Frank Beamer era (not sure how long of an era I anticipated) would be a struggle, but I didn't think the bottom would fall out. We've all discussed ad-nauseam why we are where we are, but in the end it doesn't really matter. What matters now is how we get back up. So lets collectively highlight any silver-linings and constructive (critical) observations from the game yesterday. Below are a couple from me:
Defense: Mansor Delane & Jalen Stromen are probably the two brightest spots on the entire defense, and they are both Freshmen. Something to build upon? Other than that, we simply have a gross lack of talent.
Offense: Not much on a positive note honestly, but the first drive looked promising. Unfortunately the combination of pre-snap penalties (here's looking at your Parker), clock mismanagement, horrid OL play and inconsistency from the WR group derail almost every single drive.
Special Teams: Whew... we need a punter.
Generally speaking, I watched a decent portion of the Duke - UNC game and it was disheartening. Our coaching staff simply needs to be better and there's no two ways about it. All of the issues mentioned above, that are controllable things, have not gotten better and we are 7 games into the season - had we seen improvement on these issues it's likely we come out on top of one or all three of the ODU, Pitt & Miami games and we'd all be feeling slightly better about the situation we have.
If I were the staff I'd take the rest of the season to get as many promising young guys on the field as possible. It's clear we aren't going to win another game with these persistent little poisonous issues that have infected the team.
Comments
I didn't get to watch the game as it was tough to get on TV and I decided to finish unpacking my basement (mounting the TVs and such) ... So what's up with Moore? He was a good punter last year.
edit: fixed auto correct
He looked ok at the beginning of the season too. It's weird to see him be in a funk like this.
He's probably tired. He's been on the field a lot!
My theory is that the new protection scheme is bad and he is rushing because it seems like every kick is close to being blocked
inconsistent snaps as well
Yeah I'm sorry the coaches have less than nothing to work with. The fact we were even in the game against Miami is a credit to their abilities. When we have actual P5 quality players in the program, we will win a lot of games.
At this point, I am nearing the point of checking out for a while. Not because the program isn't great but because there are a lot of people unwilling to accept the reality of the rebuild ahead of us and putting completely unreasonable expectations on games, only to light up the forums and social media with anger when those expectations aren't met. Nothing about VT fandom online is fun anymore.
Bro we lost to odu and put up 27 against one of the worst teams in division 1. Don't tell me it's all a talent problem.
What you just described is literally defining a talent problem. We couldn't put up more than 17 on ODU BECAUSE WE DONT HAVE GOOD PLAYERS. We have nothing on offense or defense, if we did, we would have scored more than 30 points in a single game and not gave up 10 miles of rushing yards to one player
The authority on player talent ranking disagrees with your personal opinion. We objectively have better players than ODU with access to better development resources.
https://247sports.com/Season/2022-Football/CollegeTeamTalentComposite/
We are ranked 53rd (bad) and ODU is ranked 103rd (abysmal).
There are a ton of teams between us and ODU that have been ranked, are ranked, or beat ranked teams.
247 is a tool for measuring players before they play a game, but unless they transfer, players don't get re-ranked.
We might have "talent" but it doesn't matter they aren't developing. I would say the bigger problem is it feels like the offense is trying to scheme to the players instead of scheming to the scheme.
I believe all 5 of these things are true, and none of them are mutually exclusive:
Hard stop. We have more talent on our roster than ODU does, at least from a ratings stance.
Winning games isn't purely a matter of talent. If it was 100% exclusively talent, Alabama, Georgia, and Ohio State should never, ever lose a game unless they play each other.
Similarly, and I don't know how many times I have to bring this up, Ohio State should not have been shut out in the playoffs in 2016, especially since we scored 35 against Clemson. By everyone making the "talent is better argument", the anOSU should have scored more than us, and Miami shouldn't have had seasons with less than 10 wins over the last 10 years. And Middle Tennessee is 100% incapable of beating Miami.
I'm not saying we should be happy about losing to ODU, but people on here act like it never happens to other, better schools. It was the first freaking game of the season. We had no proven receivers, new QBs, no great RB, we lost 3 guys on the OLine to draft declaration. Our O was always going to be really bad.
And our guys are all inexperienced. Talent comparisons ignore experience. A senior player of a certainty ranking should always be better than a freshman of the same recruiting ranking. I said it in another thread, but there's reason teams like Duke and Kentucky full of top 10 recruits lose in the tournament to 15 seeds who are full of seniors.
We are young, inexperienced, running a new scheme, with new coaches. Young, inexperienced players are more likely to get penalties and make errors playing.
So everyone who expects us to automatically win games because, on paper, we have more talent ignores so many things. If it worked that way, we wouldn't actually play the games, we'd just do a talent comparison on paper.
By that same argument though, isn't the popular refrain of "The talent level is too low; Fuente screwed this season beyond repair" also not an appropriate take? If talent level doesn't necessarily win you games, it shouldn't necessarily lose them either.
Kind of a false syllogism (like all poodles are dogs, but not all dogs aren't poodles). Great talent isn't guaranteed to WIN games but the great talent CAN overcome execution/poor design at times.. Lesser talent CAN win against better talent, BUT it has minimal to non-existent margin of error or ability to overcome errors when execution/play calling is poor. Just my opinion of course.
In college football- perhaps more than any other sport- there absolutely is a very strong "talent to winning" ratio. If you buy into "recruiting rankings and star ratings" - overwhelmingly the teams with the most talent win more games than teams without. Can a less talented team win a random game? sure. but at the end of the day/season there aren't any teams playing in the playoff without a substantial number of blue chip players compared to teams playing in the pinstripe bowl. Cincy last year being one exception, and they had a pro prospect at the QB position- i.e. talent. If you look at college football the past 20 years, this is overwhemingly true.
Don't disagree at all-actually that was my point- talent can overcome and to some extent erase mistakes (even though it doesn't guarantee a win) and lesser talent will occasionally be bolstered by great execution/coaching/random lucky bounces (even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while) but the overall correlation between taent and winning is strong and the way to bet in the long run.
Talent imbalances are most exploitable in college sports. That's where you get "The Man Rule" of play calling. When you have "The Man" it hardly matters what you call.
If David Wilson or Kevin Jones is running the ball, it doesn't matter if its a trap or a gut
You took it to purely talent again. Fuente left us with little talent, a lot of the experienced talent we had transferred or declared for the draft. So the talent we had is VERY inexperienced.
I also forgot culture and mindset. We didn't just have young, inexperienced guys, there were guys on the team that apparently didn't mind losing, and some who WANTED to lose. And from what Pry said, didn't have very good work ethics.
Young, inexperienced guys with bad work ethics who don't mind losing? Who on here thinks you're going to win a lot of games with that, even if on paper they're more talented than other teams?
Alabama, Ohio State, and Georgia have lost a COMBINED 19 games the past 5 seasons. That's pretty good considering the competition they play.
The comment I responded to suggested we lost to ODU because we don't have any talent on the roster. At no point did I suggest or argue anything that you addressed in your comment.
I think people are oversimplifying the mix of all our problems as "no talent." It's a lot easier to say than all the things I said.
Let's reverse this. In your opinion- not talking about 3 years from now projections- RIGHT NOW- when compared to other ACC teams- peer teams, not even Clemson. Where IS this 2022 VT team talented? If talent is not the issue, where do you think there is ACC level talent on this team? What position groups, etc?
The medical staff seems top tier
We are more talented than ODU at literally every position
Really? How about long snapper? How about punt returner? How about WR? OG? DT? you say it as fact, when its not as obvious as you think, all due respect. Our 2005 team could have went to ODU and had 6 turnovers, a bumbled snap, 18 penalties and beat ODU by 28 points. THATS the difference. The talent level on this roster and ODU is much closer than you think.
Between this and your other question to me above - I think you are hitting on the right things. The statement by tjbhokie that we are a more talented team than ODU may be true on paper (whoever listed our talent ranking compared to theirs). I listed reasons why just making that statement is irrelevant. You bring up other another good point - that the talent isn't balanced. You listed positions we are lacking talent in.
The
blondeBALANCE issue is probably one of the two main problems our roster has, the other is that the talent we do have is very inexperienced. Okay, a third - potentially bad work ethics.Another thing just occurred to me as well. We've talked a lot about finding the 3 star guys who will perform beyond their rating because they weren't scouted well, and how that's harder to do nowadays. But I wonder about the opposite. There's also the issue of guys not playing to what you'd expect from their recruiting rating. I remember that there was a lot of complaints about losing guys to the portal. I remember posting a number of times that someone , I think it was the Roanoke Times, was tracking performance of the guys who transferred out, and almost all of them were busts.
So what if There was such a thing as recruiting and signing guys who underperform? And that being more common than successes? The more I think about it, the more I feel like there have been a LOT of guys Fuente recruited from high school that didn't really pan out. Because talent levels are based on how guys were rated in high school, not how they perform in college.
I've seen the question - who on this roster seems like they might break out into being a star some day. I think we've got maybe 4 or 5 guys on a roster of 85. That's not great, Bob.
So I agree with you. On paper it may show we have talent, but where is it? I'd love if one of the data guys on here could put together an analysis of all the recruits that belong to Fuente, their star ratings, and whether they were busts or good. I'd do it, but I've got a ton of stuff going on. Because it certainly feels like a disproportionately high number of his recruits were busts, which means our "talent" may have a disproportionate amount of busts until Pry can replace it.
Edit: wtf is wrong with autocorrect??? "Blonde"???
Talent exists solely on paper. It shows up through coaching and execution. The fact that our talent level is higher than ODU's on paper is pretty indisputable, and that ends the talent argument. Our guys were higher rated, higher recruited, and should be better players. Development and execution are the difference.
That falls on the coaches. A lot of it falls to Fuente, as he failed to develop players and produce good execution, but some of it has to fall on Pry for the continual failure in development and execution.
If it was 100% exclusively talent, Alabama, Georgia, and Ohio State should never, ever lose a game unless they play each other.
They don't lose many outside of the listed group...
The not losing "many" is exactly my point - according to the talent is everything logic, they should lose exactly zero outside that group. Saying "not many" is a non-zero number that defies the "talent is everything" thought process.
Luck is the variable that is impossible to account for. Wouldn't you call the occasional loss outside of the group the exceptions that prove the rule?
You have something to add?
Bro.
No. His gif was condescending and noise. It added nothing to the discussion.
If the team with the higher recruiting rankings always won the game, you could go to vegas and retire a rich man.
Vegas would stop taking CFB bets based on W/L outcomes.
I don't look at Bookface, Tweeter, and the like, nor do I peruse any of the other discussion boards for VT, so I can't speak to any of that, but reddit's r/CFB is lighthearted, petty, and frequently hilarious. If you're looking for fun in fandom try there.
While I agree Fuente did the program no favors and left it in a very bad state, I would also like to say that it doesn't mean this coaching staff is above reproach.
They are new and learning on the job-which is a somewhat risky scenario given the fact that Pry is also a first time head coach. My observations from yesterday...
The Good:
The fight of the team to not quit is changed from last year over the last few games
The defense played well enough for the team to win
Some young players are starting to show their talent and will be significant contributors in a few years
The Bad:
Players seemed to have regressed when it comes to catching the ball. Lofton, Gallo, etc...
3 quarters in and 0 points... ooof. Again, I understand we lack playmakers, but we aren't playing the chiefs here. Miami was 2-3 and lost to MTSU earlier in the year. Is our talent such that MTSU is significantly higher than ours?
Again- it is a mix of talent deficiency and new staff learning on the fly. The jury is still out on how effective they will be, but I do not think they are world beaters by any means so far. It is fair to give them a few years to evaluate their effectiveness.
Your point about MTSU is itself a flaw. If it worked the way you describe, every less talented team that played Miami should win or score more points than MTSU scored. And more talented teams than MTSU should beat Miami 100% of the time. The point is that less talented teams CAN (and do) beat more talented teams, not that it should be the expected outcome or that there should be any other conclusions.
My point about MTSU isn't saying that just a talent gap determines the result- that's why the game is played.
Rather, it is saying that talent issues are not the only reason the team is struggling. It is both a mixture of talent and coaching. Given the right coaching and planning, less talent can win, but not that it always will.
Okay, but then it sounds like you're saying good coaches can get the most out of their talent. I 100% agree with that, except when the coaches are new to a school, running a new scheme, with players they didn't recruit for that scheme, who are also inexperienced (players) with what sounds like a bad culture and work ethic from the previous coaches. Oh, and bad {previous} S&C program. Our coaches could be fantastic, but that's a lot to overcome in year 1, let alone the first half of year one.
Edited: clarified bad previous S&C program.
Yeah it's impossible to point to one thing but you can overcome poor execution with ability but when we execute poorly it is glaringly obvious because we really don't have the talent to overcome any caliber of mistake and we're making a shit load of mistakes.
dude, if you are going to check out on anything, make it social media, and keep watching the team.
meh. I knew we'd be bad. I know our roster is a mess (even if the talent isn't terrible, it's very poorly distributed). But I also am skeptical of whether these coaches are the right guys for the job. They're all new and unproven in their current roles. We have a brand new HC. A brand new DC. A brand new OC. There's going to be growing pains. There's no guarantee that these coaches will learn and excel in their jobs. We just don't know.
I haven't been impressed by them so far. I also am not ready to see heads roll. They deserve some time - especially given the magnitude of the mess they're dealing with. But we have to be honest and realize that there's a good chance these guys aren't the answer we need. Unfortunately, I think our program was just driven so far into the ground that it will take a series of miracles to recover. We're also really bad at football at a really bad time to be bad at football. Conference alignments and changes could be very painful and a floundering VT program could easily get left behind. IIWII. I've moved on from hoping to ever return to the levels we reached under Beamer. I think it would be a good idea for most here to do the same. Possible? Sure. Likely? NOPE.
Positives:
Malachi Thomas
King (woefully underutilized - or is he injured?)
Some attempt in the design to spread the field stead of forcing it inside ad nauseum.
Defense at times gets lit and starts disrupting
Agreed on stroman and Delaney as bright spots
Negatives
Hard to believe Connor is in the best position for his skill set - doesn't have range and struggles in coverage
- stupid penalties and lack of focus leading to drops of easy passes continue to kill us. - that is not just due to a lack of talent but also poor focus and discipline which I will put largely on Pry.
- lack of energy and inspiration from Pry.
- punting is horrible
And many more.
Rebuild and time sure. Will see.
But will we make excuses if pry can't get some good players to vt? Will we say "Fuente ran the program into the ground, so now Pry is unable to recruit?" Seems like that comment is waiting in the wings to be dropped when we get a lackluster class.
A good coach would never lean on that logic and neither should we. Pry needs to show that he can recruit or he will not last more than 3 years.
Tbh blaming Fuente for recruiting wouldn't even be wrong. The damage he did to our relationships with high school coaches is intense. I wouldn't be surprised if people still won't talk to us.
That said, if it's still that way in 3 years that's completely on Pry.
Maybe at some schools(Fuente burned bridges), but shouldn't Pry be able to reel in some good players from places where Fuente did not have relationships? I thought the word on the street was Pry had a big hand in recruiting success at Penn St. Seems we're doing a little too much rationalizing for the guy. He is supposed to be able to recruit in spite of Fuente.
I don't think you can assume that recruiting to Tech is the same as recruiting to Penn State and the results should be the same. If the relationship building he and the staff are doing is the infrastructure to bring in good recruits, it may take a year or two to see the results.
Some coaches that had a poor relationship with Tech because of Fuente may still be hesitant to recommend to kids to come to Tech until the staff demonstrates their commitment to those relationships.
It took Pry several tries to get a response from a certain 757 HS coach.
I got parents this past weekend telling me they have been seeing VT more often. Almost never when Fu was around.
The bridge burning was real. It will take time to fix.
I'll look beyond raw recruiting rankings for now. If one certain player on this team gets in trouble off the field and it throws the entire locker room into chaos, I'll be concerned. If a bunch of guys firmly in the 2 deep bounce immediately after the UVA game, I'll be concerned. If Farrell and Bullock both hit the portal, I'll be concerned.
Basically if Conner were taller, he'd be Kam Chancellor.
If there was ever a year to have my wedding and honeymoon make me miss three fall saturdays, I'm glad it's this one. That being said, I do see glimmers every game that next year might be significantly better. Im not saying 8 wins or anything, but competitive in most games and maybe squeak in a bowl bid
Congrats on getting married! May you have many happy years together!
A couple of thoughts:
I have to agree Delane stood out to me as a shining light in an otherwise dim affair yesterday. The offense continues to shoot themselves in the foot. A handful of better executed plays and the final is 28-20 Hokies.
So many moving parts in running a college football program... the honeymoon is over and it is time to get to work. Give this man a few years to show us what he can do. Anything less is inviting us to become a revolving door program which is not our culture. Let's support and encourage and if the product isn't there in a few years then you do what you have to do.
Visited Blacksburg for the first time in a while and while I had a great weekend with old friends, I've never been more negative about the state of the program.
From problems with concessions/long lines/understaffed stands, issues with the mobile tickets, and fans acting like compete assholes, Lane stadium is just not a great experience right now, not to mention the on-the-field product.
Then the actual coaches/players themselves- YIKES. I know we don't have the talent we've had in years past, but I'm not seeing player development throughout the year like I see in other ACC teams.
Then, from a friend who works at the Farmhouse, I hear about Pry getting drunk out of his mind and acting like a clown while our program was hosting an event with players, their families and high school coaches before the start of the season. Can't imagine that kind of thing sits well with coaches or parents.
From top to bottom, there is just something fundamentally off about VT football right now. I hope Pry is the guy, but I'm really beginning to doubt this staff has it in them.
So in terms of silver lining, sure the players are playing hard and it was nice to see fight from them in the 4th. We hired Pry for a reason and he deserves a shot. But I can't help but think that this is going to end with us having to clean house down the road again, this time with Whit included.
A lot of the same experience when I went to the WVU game. It was just not what it used to be. I'm unfortunately with you on your last point. Pry absolutely deserves a shot to right the ship, but was talking with a few VT fan friends yesterday, and agree that we aren't seeing a ton of progression on the controllable issues through seven games. All for giving it time, but consider me very pessimistic on the state of VT football right now. It's just not good all around.
Gonna need a better source on this than 'a buddy who works at _____'
Sounds right out of the Bud Foster rumor years.
Don't have anything else on it. Wasn't trying to break a story backed by sources or anything lol, just wanted to share a story I heard from a buddy.
don't downvote this. he is saying it's 2nd hand rumor upfront and not trying to pass it off as factual news. take it with a grain of salt and move on.
I appreciate the share, however my perspective, I can see a host getting overly drunk at a function if he's trying to wine and dine. I certainly have been in that position before a few times. Sometimes when everyone is cheersing 🍻 you because you're the center of attention it happens.
(edit: fixed spelling)
Really? I kinda feel the opposite.
I don't know if Pry will work out for us. But I don't think he'll ever be in denial of problems. I don't think he'll be dismissive of the fanbase. I don't think ignore recruits and high schools. I don't think we'll have roster imbalance.
There's more uncertainty in our program than at any time in the modern era - will the new coach work? How will college football change with the new playoff? How will the greater revenue disparity, NIL, etc impact VT? How will we fair in a divisionless ACC? - but I feel like we're at least aware of it and acknowledging it for the first time in VT history. And that makes me feel better than I have in a few years.
Penalties were down, better on turnovers (not good enough), and special teams were more solid. Good start on solidifying fundamentals, and we keep locking down those bread and butter 3 star recruits from our core VA footprint. Slow and painful, but progress.
Bench Wells, time to give Tahj Bullock an opportunity or he'll be in transfer portal. He had other P5 offers, played competitive private HS in NJ, also ran track and is 6'4". Nothing ventured nothin gained!
Bullock isn't even on the depth chart, if anything it would be Farrell getting playing time. Bullock is probably hitting the portal as soon as it opens.
It is open all year isn't it? Kids can opt out and says their intent to transfer I thought. Either way, I agree he is probably headed elsewhere after this season seemingly passed on the chart.
NCAA changed portal rules in August. 2 windows; one after 'championship selection' 45 days and one after spring scrimmage May 1-15 or so. Plus I've read there is a 30-day open window when player's coach is fired.
This year, champion selection is Dec. 4 (link). Thus, a player can enter the portal on Dec. 5. And as you mentioned, if a player's coach is altered (fired, retires, takes another position, etc.), they can enter the portal immediately and up to the 30 days after the alteration.
As of right now, only Nebraska and Wisconsin players can enter the portal, but that window will close here soon. Wisconsin lineman Logan Brown just entered the portal via the change in coach rule and I think the only player currently within the portal.
GT and Colorado are still in the 30-day window. AZ State's 30-day window is about to close.
Thanks for the correction. I don't know how I forgot about GT, ASU seems like forever ago, and I didn't even know about CU.
It's been a bad year for coaches of former blue bloods of the 90s...
I doubt many players would try to transfer mid-season. Unless they're an obvious upgrade where they are going, they'd have to fight for PT behind the existing 2 deep even if they're a starter now.
And there's the whole deal where lines do better if they've played together, so seems like it would make it more difficult to break into a starting lineup at this point in the season. Seems like it would be better to transfer during the off-season.
Gotta agree with this take. By this point I'd have hoped to see some progression from Wells. The kid has an arm but he has ZERO finesse when throwing short range balls and he's consistently throwing behind the receivers. There have been numerous throws this year where if the kid just took a little bit of zip off the ball they would have been catches for positive yardage. A cannon only gets ya so far.
Some positives:
Thomas and Wright showed some promise, I thought. (Wright, in spite of the fumble.)
Wells showed some athletic ability and a will to win, by himself if necessary.
VT wasn't perfect on penalties, but I thought I saw some improvement on that front.
VT's defense was intermittent in the first half, but they rose to the occasion in the second half.
So far, we look exactly how I was afraid we'd look directly after the Maryland bowl game.
I felt good about Pry going into the season, but that's not a good thing.
I didn't understand what the offense was trying to do. Miami has been pushed around defensively, so we went five wide and played to their strength? Sure, they popped a couple of underneath throws, but where was the big play, contested catch, or something to scheme guys wide open? Zone stretch popped a big run first play of the game, and we never saw it again.
I appreciated the fight, but almost every successful play on the two scoring drives was a broken schoolyard play, not scheme with the exception of the Thomas touchdown (which Miami's OLB brain farted, because the Hokies had called the same concept, flood inside and wheel the back out) over and over and over with minimal success up to that point. People will point to the sacks and yell at the offensive line, and yes, they weren't real good... but a lot of those were coverage sacks where Wells had time and had nobody open. They are incredibly predictable right now, which doesn't help matters.
Offensive line just isn't good. And those penalties, they are penalties. Guys are rocking in their stance, looking back, and jumping the gun. It is happening. I don't know how to correct it other than run them into the ground or benching people, and that only goes so far when there aren't any backups.
Seems like hiring an unproven OC was a risk that hasn't paid paid off.
Pry's postgame presser essentially has said the offensive staff isn't performing. He mentioned (1) playing the wrong personnel, (2) not enough explosive plays, and (3) offense is too vanilla/predictable.
It's interesting that he's so honest about his hand-picked offensive staff. In some regards, it's refreshing to hear him be so honest when they have been underperforming. On the other hand, it's like, "huh, didn't you hire them?!?"
I don't get where you are going with this. He hired them, but didn't know how they would do until they got here. Kinda like recruiting players who don't pan out (too many examples to list) or hiring head coaches who fail (Fuente, Frost, etc.)
Clearly Pry is good at identifying the problems. The question is can he develop them into good coaches and can they learn from their mistakes. We need more than a half season to find out.
Yeah, I'm guessing Pry's bye week things to emphasize will be like: why is Holston in the game trying to catch a pass at a critical juncture/how do we get the ball to our best players as much as possible (wright, king, Thomas, maybe gallo and lofton?).
Also - what happened to Christian moss?? Hurt? Dog house? Not sure how someone comes out and looks like he belongs and can get open, then just disappears.
At points, some of the personnel decisions on Offense are becoming dare I say Fueneteesque.
Guys come and go without any clear rationale.
For WR, Lofton needs to hit the JUGs machine before he sees any more significant time on the field, Jones and Moss both deserve a longer look.
And throwing a swing pass to Holston was beyond puzzling. If (for whatever reason) Thomas and King weren't available...why not use Black--who many people think should transition to WR anyways??
1) He played a fair amount. I didn't see him get targeted.
2) I am not sure he brings anything more to the table than the other options. His catches against Wofford were relatively standard fare. I have yet to see VT's WRs go up and make a play on a contested ball against P5 defenders except for Smith. That has to change. Jones and Lofton are guys who I think have the ability to do it, but the mental lapses (Lofton drops, Jones doing whatever he is doing to not get reps consistently) are killers.
You either have to run by defenders, work your way open with crisp routes, or go up and take the ball away. Miami dropped seven deep and said "get open", and they couldn't.
Fixed it
Where I'm going with this:
When the HC openly criticizes a position coach or coordinator in the media, it's typically because they do not get along with that coach. Often, it's a some-what forced relationship or a hiring that was based on ability alone. (Like when Saban hired Kiffin.)
But in this case, Pry was super selective of his coaching hires and initially touted them as relationship-based hires, right fit, and future super-star coaches . Now, he's providing an honest critique in a public media setting, which is atypical even when it's factual. (Like Beamer always complimentary of his OCs, despite the on-field product.)
So, it's refreshing to hear this honest critique, but also making me turn my head a little bit. I am hopeful it doesn't strain the relationship, but it could. Nobody likes to be openly critiqued when it can be done in a private setting. At the same time, Pry is very careful (and fairly constructive) with his critiques.
Ultimately, I am beginning to wonder how the relationship between TyBo and Pry is going. Are cracks starting to form? Or is this just Pry being honest and TyBo is receptive to the public critiquing. I am assuming it's the latter, but can't help but wonder if perhaps it is at least slightly the former.
It's turning my head too. With the offense being so lackluster, it makes me wonder whether Pry is thinking of replacing Bowen at the end of the year.
Please note, I am not using this post to advocate for firing Bowen at the end of this season. I just am caught off guard by him making honest critiques of the offensive coaching in the media. He did it earlier this year after another game (I think maybe BC) where he said we were too predictable.
I would be kind of surprised if Pry fires anyone this offseason. I suppose it's possible. I think this first year was always going to be rocky. I do think that hiring and firing is an important part of his job. He has to be careful not to be too trigger happy, though, or nobody will want to work for him. I hope that he drives improvement among his staff and provides them with the support and resources necessary to succeed. This might be a bad year for the offensive coaches but they also have a ton of extra challenges to contend with that other offensive coaching staffs aren't dealing with. If it were me, I wouldn't fire anyone yet but I'd put them on a tight leash and make sure they understand that they need to demonstrate some real progress if they want to keep their job beyond 2023.
FWIW Frank Beamer fired Ron Zook after his first season at Tech
He was well ahead of the curve on that one
oh wow looking at his wiki, he went to OSU and then Florida after that?
Yea, I'm pretty much here with you. I still don't think anything like firing and hiring a new OC happens, but maybe something a little more subtle. I could see Glenn being promoted to co-OC and start calling the plays in 2023 along with adjusting the offense to what Glenn was good at GSU. Glenn had some prolific rushing offenses and dual-threat QBs (link), but notably around 50-60th ranked total offense via Football Outsiders.
I don't know if VT would run a Run-heavy RPO offense, and I don't know if Glenn's offense would work with Rudolph's run-block scheme, and I don't know if VT has the QB personnel in the top spots of the depth chart to pull off the offense, but whatever is going on right now is just not working. And maybe it doesn't really matter until the O-line run blocking improves.
The public critique could also be something they talked about internally first and Bowen is ok with it for now because there's open communication between him and Pry. That may change but TyBo (great name btw) is ok being the one taking the hits for now.
I'd like to give the OC/DC a year before getting too far up their asses. In TyBo's case, while he's been an OC, it was as Co-OC and not THE guy. If we get into next year and the schemes are still flat and uninspired, then we can sharpen the pitchforks.
Just like some OC/DCs can't make the jump to HC, some position coaches can't make the jump to the OC/DC. Same goes for any industry.
TyBo
his offense is as lethal as
TaeBo
(I know I just did the thing you advised us not to do, but in my defense, I had to)
Replaced CornFu with TyBo. Hope it pans out!
There's a difference in actually being critical of a person and admitting things that need to change. Pry may very well be talking these things over with Bowen, Rudolph, and Glen and even have a plan to fix it. So announce he things they need to do better then wouldn't feel like an indictment to the coach(es) in question.
I'm guessing Pry is working with the offensive staff for plans on how to fix those things - he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who wouldn't tell his staff what needed to be fixed and just take shots at them during pressers.
Or maybe he's mentioning it to the public so that they are aware that the coaches aren't satisfied and trying to work towards solutions instead of pretending like nothings wrong but trying to fix it behind closed doors.
Good point also - it's even better if the offensive coaching staff was aware of it first and trying to work on it (and maybe said something like "our play calling is vanilla, but that's because some of the guys are struggling with the other plays and there's a lot of busted routes in practice so we kinda have to stick with it for now" type thing).
If the offensive staff can't look at the product on the field and know for themselves that they are underperforming, and would then take offense to being called out on it....I don't want them
Relationship-based doesn't necessarily mean a direct relationship. If I recommend a plumber or a certain TKPing realtor and you contact and hire them, that's relationship-based. Pry may have had some coaches recommended by others he respects/trusts. It also could be a case of these guys nailed the interview but aren't quite living up to the good impressions. It's refreshing to hear a coach say, "yeah, our performance is subpar there and the responsible staff needs to improve that."
No shade on Frank, but sometimes his unwillingness to voice acknowledgement of fans/media valid concerns regarding our OCs had me rankled. Like because we're fans, we can't possibly know what a good offense looks like. Well, my band directors always told us, "You don't have to know a flute from a tuba to recognize a crooked line." Same with a good vs bad offensive performance and eventually there are enough bad performances that you have to face facts: you have a bad offense.
Pry knows what he wants his offense to be but has to rely on the OC to bring his vision into reality. Whether Pry gets us to achieve that vision with the current staff or some changes, I'm willing to let him work.
Just to be clear on TyBo and Pry, they have had a direct relationship. Pry and TyBo coached together at Penn St for 3 seasons, 2018 to 2020. And FWIW, Pry had a direct relationship with most of his staff prior to their hiring. I think he had a direct relationship with TyBo, Marve, Price, Jones, Holt, Quinn, and Galt, most of which were prior coaching stops. He was really close with Jones as they would vacation together. I think he didn't have a direct relationship with Glenn, Rudolph, or Mines. And while Prioleau was a student player at VT while Pry was graduate assistant, I don't know if they truly had a prior relationship.
This is what gives me hope in Pry. Either his staff is open to the critique, learns and adjusts and they get better each year or if they're not changing and growing, Pry will replace them.
I think acknowledging your hire has problems is bigger than getting it right the first time. Especially when hiring middling OC's is such a coin toss.
As the season moves along, while some are getting positive vibes from the fact that we've been "more competitive" against Pitt and Miami, I can't help but feel that there's a lot of grasping for moral victories.
Miami helped us out tremendously yesterday by being Miami and having 150+ yds of penalties. And while technically, the Pitt game was close in terms of points in the second half, they literally set Rushing records against us and Abanakanda could have scored 10 TDs if the game went on further. There was no doubt who the better team was in either game.
The "progress" for the O vs. Pitt looks more like a one-off after a pretty moribund performance vs. UM.
The point I'm getting at is this...I don't see consistent improvement really anywhere on this team.. we do some things better one week, worse the next, wash and repeat.
And that concerns me because, I see the '23 Roster being a lot like our current one. I know there are high hopes for the Transfer Portal this offseason, but I just don't see a high likelihood of landing enough guys that the overall talent level is going to be hugely improved. Maybe (hopefully) Pry will prove me wrong but I just don't see that he has alot to sell at this point. And you can be the best salesman on Earth, but at some point, a broken Fridge is a broken Fridge and nobody wants one.
That's VT Football at this point, a broken appliance...maybe with some new parts it can run like a top again, but you also need people who know how to get those parts and make the whole system work again (coaches)...I'm still questioning whether we have the right people to do that.
I get what you're saying, I think. And I appreciate the broken appliance analogy. But what parts need fixing?
(Count me in the 'talent is the main problem and I'm gonna be optimistic for now with the coaching staff' group.)
Likely unrelated, but part of my work is training staff, students: coaching, if you would. I'd like to think I give them all the benefit of the doubt and try to be optimistic when others would bail. Its paid off sometimes in seeing a student/employee finally 'click' and blossom. But... in a few instances, despite my efforts, it doesn't work out and I have to admit the effort's not worth it. They won't ever get it.
So, I think Pry has a similar task: He's shuffling through the deck and he's gonna have some tough calls coming up. (Which may extend to coaching/staff as well.)
I'm hoping, like others, to limp through the season, find some positives, maybe sneak another win or more, and beat uva. Then, the next off season will, IMO answer some of these questions.
We'll see what parts Pry thinks are in dire need of fixing.
Well I decided to join thekeyplay again this year so I have not totally checked out. My expectations were low to begin with - I thought there was a lot of hype that was unjustified. But I will say it's a lot worse than I expected this year. But I am not mad. It is what it is. A crappy season is fait accompli.
Sorry, it's not just talent. Definitely some coaching issues. Pry continues to look at the offense through a defensive lens. You can do that if you have a kick butt OC, but we do not. And Pry cannot provide guidance. Plus some of the on field management has been poor (delay of game for example). And some of his post game summaries are really basic ("we need to do better" ... ya think?)
I like Pry as I sense he has connected with the team and with Blacksburg, and can connect with recruits. He gets a pass this year. But next year he has to up his game or the clamoring will commence.
From French above:
I noticed this as the game unfolded and it triggered me a bit... It's like we, VT fans have PTSD (hyperbole of course, so if this is a struggle of yours I mean no disrespect) with offense. Since the early 2000's the VT offense has been a whole lot of this kind of thing - finally stumbling into something that works only to do the opposite when that thing is realized. I certainly hope Pry isn't loyal to a fault. This program needs an infusion of energy. I do appreciate that the team seems to have embodied a bit of new cultural identity (they play till the very end), but more than that is needed.
Bowen is like every offensive coach that coached in the NFL... they play percentages/numbers game. He wants a certain look pre-snap and then he calls the play that has the best chance to work. Fuente would run the ball 85% of the time when the defense was in 2-high safeties for example. You can contrast this with Art Briles/Mike Leach/Kingsbury- there are very few reads in that offense...it's snap it, throw to the guy that's not doubled. Much less complex, much more effective in college.
Offensively, we have the pieces to be successful.
We just need to get everything together, working at once, for a full game.
Thomas has brought life into the running game. (28/125 and a TD, with 0 TFL)
Smith and Wright can be solid targets in the receiving game, and I wouldn't rule out Lofton, Blue, or Gallo to make a few catches.
Wells has flashed success in the passing game. The fourth quarter alone he was 10/15/102 and a TD
Our problem is that each of these happens when something else is failing. That is something that can be worked on, and we are seeing some improvements.
They say you're not as bad as your worst outing.
Defensively, take away the best running back in the ACC, maybe country, and that's a rushing defense giving up less than 100 ypg and less than a TD a game. Take away Drake Maye, and the defense is giving up less than 200 ypg and barely 1/2 a TD per game.
Welcome to the rebuild.
The ODU and Miami games should have been wins, but one or two things don't go right. Who else wouldn't want 4-3 right now?
Any sort of offense in the first half between WVU and Pitt would have been closer games.
So I get the frustration. But in a rebuild, those results aren't going to happen in year 1.
I'll give you ODU. Miami? eh, I think if we trade scores with them, their offense is better than our defense. I think best case would be whomever had the ball last, but fact is we never had the lead in the game.
Nobody knew who that Pitt RB was until last week- he's not the best back in the ACC or country. And Maye is in our conference, we have to play him..so you can't "take that away".
Hard disagree... People absolutely knew who he was. And he's a complete a RB as we've seen in a while. Gonna make some money playing on Sundays, thats certain.
I missed almost the entire game due to running multiple errands on a sunshiny day. So I got that goin' for me.... which is nice.
The good- 1. the crowd- early.. wow- for a team struggling this was impressive. 2. Miami's running back did not run around untouched for 12 yards a pop. 3. Punting was decent this time. The Bad... 1. We get to within 6, Miami immediately throws it right in the middle of our zone defense for an easy pitch/catch for 12 yards. Too easy. 2. Our offense is bad- no big time WR, so teams exploit that and the whole plan goes out the window. 3. Our veteran corners- bad.
On Chatman... Cover 3, hooked up under because the inside route pulled Harvey inside out of the throwing lane. More in the review... but in summation, a Kendall/Kyle Fuller, young Facyson, Farley, etc perhaps close the gap and make a play on that ball. They tried Delane, they failed, they went after Chatman when they needed a play. Everything about that play was designed to create space under Chatman. The fact they went after a R-S with multiple years starting experience instead of a freshman tells you all you need to know about those veterans. The kids need to learn whatever they are screwing up on in practice, because Chatman and Murray (guys who historically I have respected their effort) are not going to be part of the solution here.
Old Facyson might have not closed the gap, but he wouldn't have let the gap happen. He would have been a first round pick with out the injury. No VT DB has as many pass breakups as he did.
Not sure I can add anything insightful to the conversation. There's obviously a talent and schematic fit problem, but coaches are doing the players no favors. That doesn't mean Pry can't figure it out, that doesn't mean any coaches need to be fired (I'd argue we need stability from the coaching staff right now so we can rebuild the roster), but it does mean that we need to see improvement from the staff.
We have two long weeks coming up and 5 winnable games left on the schedule (NC St is winnable with their starting QB out for the season). I would love to see some improvement and momentum going into the off season.
I'm going to call 2 offensive touchdowns a victory against NC State. If we do that, I'll be very happy. Don't care what the score is. Go down the field twice on offense for legit scores against a very good defense, and that's progress for this group. We aren't winning that game.
I'll call it a victory if we score at all. It took us an entire half to cross midfield against Miami.
Um if we get two offensive TDs we might just outscore them, they didn't look good with their backup. Now we can change that and make their backup look great I'm sure, but they aren't world beaters on offense.
I disagree on NCST being a winnable game. I think we have 2, maybe 3, winnable games on the schedule. GT and UVA are winnable. Duke is a maybe. NCST is going to be fine with out Leary. I don't think they will have any trouble with us. Liberty is going to SCORCH our defense and there is no way our offense will be able to keep up.
Devin Leary is out for the season and they don't seem threatening throwing the ball without him + Tim Beck is their OC. I think that game has now landed in the "winnable" category, even if they are still more likely to win than not.
Good:
Players never quitting on team. Culture is improving
Bad:
Our receivers letting balls hit them again and again in hands and helmets.
Ugly:
Our offensive line and depth.
I can see what Pry wants to do on defense. Very similar to Foster back in the day with exotic pressures and pre snap zone looks turning to man blitzes and vice versa. The issue for his side of the ball right now is our corners are not very good in coverage and the DT's aren't consistent. Dax has been asked to run the seam a lot with this scheme and he's been roasted 3-4 times for TDs this year chasing WRs in what appears to be a tampa 2 look, where he's responsible for deep middle as safeties split their halves. The safeties and DE's have shown the best IMO this season. Both still have to be more consistent but the flashes of youthful talent in those two position groups is obvious to me(Peoples, Stroman, Nelson, McCray, Fuga to be specific). We need some Fullers, Hosley, Flowers, Harris type corners back on the roster. Chatman has been bad this year. Delane is going to be very good. Hopefully we can convince his younger brother he can come start opposite of him expeditiously.
Offensively it's just bad. I'm a fan of Wells, just feel like the inconsistent playcalling, OL blocking and untimely WR drops have really made him look awful at times. If the parts around him can get more consistent, he could be the productive QB we've been looking for. The offense still doesn't have an identity to me. It appears they are experimenting with different things to see what we can actually do. With our lack of WR play, I'm shocked King or Black hasn't moved to WR yet with Thomas back full go at RB. Gosnell and Blue hasn't given us much at WR. Smith is solid possession guy and Lofton is a slot WR. We don't have a true #1 WR on our roster IMO. I want to see more of Jaylen Jones and Christian Moss myself. There are enough solid young skill players that we could put together a solid offense next season if we can grab some OL and legit WR from the portal. Just hope Bowen can develop a real identity this offseason once he's seen everything he's got in the cupboard in game action.
I was fully prepared for an up and down, potentially dismal season. I'm giving Pry 3 seasons before I can legitimately come for his neck. I've seen glimpses on both sides, which gives me hope. I see what Pry wants the defense to be and they are playing hard. Just needs better talent in a couple spots. Offensively I'm still unsure of what Bowen wants the O to be. We have less talent on offense than defense from where I sit. Beat UVa and bring on the Spring Game! Go HOKIES!
Our WRs are not good, but the route combos and spacing are odd.
Our coaches are not coaching at an ACC level right now.
which is odd since Mines came from an ACC school
EDIT: I'm an idiot, I was thinking Stu.
When he was hired, he was coaching at ODU. Prior to that, he coached at ECU and JMU.
He did his schooling and playing at UVA though.
I didn't / couldn't watch the game but I checked in to the gamecast periodically. The only thing that surprised me was that the defense tightened up in the 2nd half and the offense came to life in the 4th quarter, which is the opposite of what we have seen to date this season. Whether that's because we started executing or Miami stopped I couldn't say. What I can say is that I felt zero concern for missing the game, and zero feelings on the outcome. I have definitely entered the "whatever..." phase of my level of concern with the program.
I haven't been able to watch the last couple of weeks much due to travel - just parts here and there, but what do you think is wrong with the offense?
I'm scared Bowen isn't up for the task of being a P5 OC.
Can we not trot out Brown to see if the offense runs any better with him? Wells is making me sick.
So many combinations of things- OL mistakes causing lots of pressure at times on wells; lack of finesse/touch on short to intermediate passes at times; drops by receivers, lack of vision by the RB (though Malachi added a lot of improvement to that problem) and execution/untimely penalties. Each game one or more of those goes well but one or more goes badly and usually at particularly inopportune times (e.g. going for 4th and 1-penalty ;then going for FG on ensuing 4th and 6-penalty; ultimately punted)
Simply put, there's too many weak links in the chain in too many places. OL isn't getting push off, receivers not making catches, missed blocks (great example here), Wells missing reads, people getting nicked up, etc etc.
If there's one or two weaknesses, you can scheme around it. This offense doesn't really have a strength...
Brown wasn't much better in the limited time we saw him. There's a reason he left SCar - he was going to be 3rd string. Also, in Wells' defense, he's not getting any help from anyone.
I've also witnessed (not this week, but in weeks prior) Wells has struggled to put touch on the ball. It feels like he's got one speed that he can throw and is zipping it way too hard at nearby targets, and not being able to put air under the passes. In that regard he's hurting himself.
Everyone thought "gunslinger" meant good passer, but no gunslinger means he can throw it a mile and he uses that same arm strength no matter where on the field its going
Apparently the "gun" is a howitzer without a spotter.
One of the biggest things this off-season I thought we had done was upgrade the QB room. I thought Brown was really pushing Wells and competing, and Wells got the nod after a long competition. But honestly, I don't even think it was close at this point. Wells might not be great, but he's unfortunately the best we have by a mile. And the surrounding cast is doing him no favors either.
To add to what others said, we are also not doing anything schematically to help us out. Pry basically said this himself a couple of times after games, and much more emphatically after the Miami game. We just seem to run the same few plays and the few times they work, we either make a play or something else gets messed up--dropped pass, missed block, etc.
Also Brown is very very likely not better than Wells and has no more eligibility after this year (wells still has 2 years), so no upside in playing him. If we wanted to give Farrell a package to run, I'd be interested, but going to Brown is not likely to do anything but make the offense worse.
This makes me feel somewhat better in the sense that Pry can improve it eventually. Not even Bama is safe from penalties being an issue at some point.
Fire Saban! Saban can't coach! No successful P5 coach would let their team make that many penalites! Fire Saban! He got to go!
/s
Reports out of Tuscaloosa is that the player penalty for drawing a flag is 20 yards of sprints for every penalty yard + forced to turn in the keys to their Hellcat
Damn-Bama still #1?-well guess I can live with this ranking for them lol. Better them than us.
imagine having the talent and coaching to have that stat line, and still having been #3, 5-0 and losing to #6 on a last second field goal
I don't know guys. It seems like Blacksburg is just cursed. We're just not meant to have a good offense. Blacksburg is where offense comes to die. I can't be convinced otherwise until a good offense shows up in the Burg (which, at this rate, won't happen in my lifetime)
Get Dwayne Lawson on the field
Don't forget about Drew Harris
So the bad was the first three quarters of atrocious football that was played by us in Blacksburg last Saturday.
But silver linings?
The first drive looked great until the fumble, then the wheels came off;
The last quarter looked promising; and
The fact that we were so so bad in the first three quarters and still had the ball with a chance to take the lead late in the fourth quarter is the definitive silver lining I can come up with.
You want a silver lining?
I can guarantee we won't lose this coming weekend
Nobody beats the Bye...