🚨 #B1G Conference Statement➕ https://t.co/F8yXggM3xw pic.twitter.com/qxVPaQow2o— Big Ten Football (@B1Gfootball) October 19, 2023
Not a good look for a program already coming off of staff sanctions.
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correct me if I'm wrong... but doesn't looking through the big side of the binoculars make things look smaller? (or are these just some new-fangled kind I can't afford?)
There are a lot of different kinds of binos many compact options look like these. Those are probably like Leopold Rouges or something similar not too pricey usually under $200
if you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'
Serious question: what's wrong with sign stealing? I mean, obviously if they got a wakey leaks-type copy of the signs, that's a problem. Or if they have cameras set up in the Big House to get the signs they couldn't otherwise see. But just looking across the field, seeing the signs, and eventually being able to figure out which ones are legit and what they mean? That seems.... fine?
I mean that's the whole point of having multiple signal callers on the sideline and coaches constantly covering their mouths when they are talking plays etc. If you have one guy doing a sign and I figure it out just by observation I'm gonna use that knowledge.
Agree that if it's some nefarious scheme to get your signals then sure, but just plain observation and I figure it out then you need to up your game.
This is not in game sign stealing which is allowed. UM is accused of sending representatives to future opponents to see if they are changing their signs between games and steal them. This is in the NCAA bylaws that you can't do that.
As opposed to just watching game footage? And is anybody surprised that Harbaugh already under NCAA investigation for cheating is suspected of yet more cheating? I am still waiting for the NCAA to say that UM has to vacate the wins against Rutgers, Nebraska, and Minnesota. He was suspended for 3 games on what is normally NCAA 6 game suspension. I would love for the NCAA to show a backbone and suspend a undefeated B1G champion from the playoffs for not falling into line. But they are gutless.
game footage won't have all of the signs though
LINK to story this came from
Cheat as big and as fucking open as you can. You are a fool if you don't. There are literally no consequences.
And yet GT has been physically stealing signs or parts of signs for years with no punishment.
underrated post
Underra_ed pos_*
"T"hanks for sharing this.
And jerseys.
Poor Eastern Michigan. They're going to get their ass handed to them by the NCAA.
Harbaugh taking after Jesse Hanson, I see
If they needed signs they should have asked. Like most Hokies, I have one I'd like to give them.
Odd that they're not investigating Michigan for stolen Sugar Bowls.
Tbf the refs kinda gave them that one.
Yeah, that one is on the replay officials.
If I remember correctly, the president or some damned, high up body of the Sugar Bowl committee was a Michigan alum. So, I'm confident in my statement.
Correct. The President of the Sugar Bowl at the time was a Michigan alum.
I thought I had that right. All I remember is the guy that handed Michigan the trophy was an alum.
Are you talking about the Review Official?
Because really, HE's the guy who handed them the trophy.
I think I got my car "worked on"
fixedthere once.Updated, per Kville Hokies comment.
Oh, yeah, I'm so stealing this:)
If you get your signs stolen, it's kinda' your fault.
I mean, it's pretty widely known that Venables at Clemson was a master at stealing offensive signals, it's the reason Fuente benched Hooker in 2020, he wasn't milking the play clock which the purpose was to not let Clemson communicate our offensive signs to their players on the field. I'd be shocked if the schools with huge support staffs don't all have someone dedicated to this.
I did not know this about the 2020 game. Is this a known thing that I just missed? There was a lot of headscratching about the use of Hooker that year.
We lost 2 games in 2011- got our ass kicked - but looked generally good in the other 10 games. Look who beat us that year.
So wait, wouldn't stalling for more time give clemson more of a chance to steal signals?
We'd call the signs in right at the end of the clock and snap it.
If it would get rid of the prairie dog maneuver, I would be all for it.
"prairie dog maneuver" is very apt description and easy to visualize. I like that.
Meerkating
What a colossal waste of time and energy even investigating this.
rule is a rule.. follow it until its changed
Meh, this is how 'rules' change. By being challenged.
Update: okay, I didn't realize the 'spy' video taped stuff. I thought they were just sending a guy into the stands to watch a game. This is like going 5mph over the speed limit vs reckless driving.
Eh...there is a process for "challenging" a Rule.
Blatantly disregarding it isn't it.
According to The Athletic there was "a network," of scouts doing this. It was 100% intentional and obviously those at the top of UM Football were condoning and fully aware of it.
Someone concocted and conducted this whole scheme....probably Harbaugh. This wasn't some accidental issue i.e. giving a recruit a free Sweatshirt or sending a text message 12 hours after a Recruiting dead period started.
Let's call a spade a spade...it is blatant cheating.
Calling it anything else is akin to me telling the Officer that I was simply "challenging" the Speed Limit by doing 57 in a 35.
Not exactly. Bill Self still can't legally bribe players through adidas for 6 figures and have his assistants be investigated by the FBI. Unless I missed the fine print. I don't think Arizona basketball is allowed to pay DeAndre Aton 700K cash legally yet either. Can Hugh Freeze directly pay the next Cam Newton 500K cash legally now? I don't think so.
When are they just gonna put headsets in helmets like the nfl?
If there were serious about cutting this stuff out then this is the answer. I would imagine that the equipment is expensive though, and maybe some smaller schools would not want to add the expense.
Right, just like how the schools would all go bankrupt if we started paying players, and now that its the norm, magically everyone found a way to make it work.
Athletic departments are only as poor as they want the financials to look at any given time.
Well schools don't pay players, and if they did it would be TV contracts paying players. I believe VT football's operating costs and revenue numbers- and no they don't clear near enough to pay players. You can do the math.
That's not what Whit thinks - he's given multiple interviews where he basically said player salaries would be easier/more affordable than participating in the never ending arms race. For example, here's a quote from this interview where he says "Ultimately, I think NIL could be a less expensive model for us, so I'd encourage people to keep an open mind, learn more about it"
Because Whit is hoping for an assuming a "cap" on player payments. And equal per school- like scholarships. So of course he supports that.
I say make this more of a school effort and allow no rules about signals, just normal laws. If you can hack into the phones then the other team needs to get encrypted phones, make this a battle of engineering and CS. If teams want to leave fake game plans around then let them. Let's get more than just the football staff and players involved.
The point of some NCAA regulations is to take the burden off the school. But I agree, seems like deregulating sign stealing should be fine. It's probably not valued an iota in the scheme of things. The big schools have so many other advantages that sign stealing would be irrelevant in the determining of outcomes of games.
I want deregulation of everything, you want head sets to all the players, great, other teams try to jam them, intercept them, etc. Let a team record a play call and see if they have their encrypted channels protected against replaying the encrypted data.
Put me in the IDGAF camp.
Everything that happens on the field is PUBLIC. If you can't hide/disguise your signs well enough for them to no be stolen then maybe you're the one with the problem.
I know it's different, but I used to go scout sometimes for our high school when I was on staff. One game I watched, the RG had a tell for IZ, Power Running and Pass Pro. We knew almost every single snap what was going to happen because that kid gave us all a "sign". IDK, just seems kinda silly to me.
That is 100% not the issue here though. In college you are simply not permitted to live advance scout. VT can not send coaches to BC's game this week in person for example. That is simply not allowed. Michigan allegedly did that. This is not about stealing signs during a game.
What an absolutely stupid rule
I hear ya- but it's been a rule forever. Why do you think coaches go recruiting on bye weeks? because they can't go watch future opponents.
I mean, I think recruiting is about 80% of what contributes to a college football coach's success, so that's why I thought they did this lol.
I should say - one- of the reasons they recruit on bye weeks
LOL was going to bring him up but thought better of it.
Is this the other?
The rule is so that poor programs have a chance to compete, because Bama would send a scout team to every opponent every week if legal. Not every program has that money, so everyone agreed to not do it and make it a rule.
How about to play FBS football, you have to upload your all-22 aerial film to a shared location, that all other fbs schools can easily access. Boom, problem solved.
Agreed and it is a known rule that was collectively agreed to.
You can argue the validity of the Rule, but to me that is another conversation.
The point is this...Harbaugh and Michigan knew the Rule and intentionally violated it. They did it to gain a competitive advantage over their opponents...it wasn't an accident. They cheated, period. They deserve to be punished.
To add to it, Harbaugh is already under NCAA scrutiny and was dumb enough to be so obvious to get caught doing this.
I've gotten increasingly tired of the "well everybody does it," argument for Recruiting and Rules violations in College Sports.
You're Michigan...you already have huge advantages against 90% of the opponents on your schedule. Be better--don't cheat. I hope they throw the book at Harbaugh..he is an asshole of the highest order.
As have I, and I'm honestly surprised at how prevalent that take has been in this thread. The whole point is, you're not supposed to do it. I have zero sympathy for a program like Michigan who would have to be as bad as we are for multiple generations to lose blueblood status.
That said, if VT does this kind of thing and it helps us win, I'm all for it. What I'm not all for, is getting caught.
Like I said before I would love for the NCAA to say UM is banned from a bowl this year let alone the playoffs. Harbaugh deliberately obstructed their investigation. Then they self banned him for 3 games when the normal punishment for his action was 6 game suspension. Now more crap.
When they are announcing the playoff teams at the end of the year, they just need to say UM was banned for failure to disciple their coach in accordance with NCAA guidelines. No extra practices, etc.
"It's a stupid law, your honor, so I decided not to follow it".
TBF, that's a fine argument. Maybe not in that tone or arrogance, but that's how things get overturned, such as (for instance) marriage rights, abortion rights (and lack thereof), collegiate NIL rights, etc.
That's way out of bounds, man.
Gotcha... I mean, if it's not permitted then you're obviously correct. I'm still in the IDGAF camp. As you stated above (in so many words), cheat as big and as loudly as possible because it doesn't really matter anymore.
There is a Lickinghole Drive near me and people steal that sign constantly.
I can't imagine why
This comment makes me sigh.
Now that I edited it you look silly.
Two can play that edit game. ;^)
C'mon man.
This is a problem because it gives YET ANOTHER advantage to teams who already have a lot of other advantages because they have superior finances.
I mean, do the top 10 teams in the country need even more advantages? I submit that they do not.
And since it's clear the NCAA won't actually do much other than shame them, at least this does that.
Can someone explain why we just don't have receivers in every helmet that receives the offensive or defensive play call from the booth? It's 2023 - why are hand signals from the sidelines even still a thing?
That equipment costs money and schools at the lower levels can't or won't spend the money on it.
Nah, it's so big teams with money for staff can steal signals in game.
Cost of doing business? If you want to win games and prevent the opponent from stealing your signals, you make the investment in the tech. I think the only major challenge is how the NCAA makes it happen. Do they allow it but not require it, and potentially give better-financed teams even more of advantage to your point? do they force the tech and make everyone invest? Or do they take the approach like they did with instant replay and allow each conference to handle it until everyone can get onboard?
Cuz it's probably easier to steal radio signals than decipher three chipmunks dancing in front of a sheet
Radio sure. This would need to be an encrypted signal of which there are multiple technologies that could apply here. I wouldn't trust bluetooth for a couple reasons, but there is other tech that could be just as easily implemented... even a simple SVoIP would work if there was sufficient broadcast strength from the bench/booth.
I- Think- the reason that college doesn't simply follow the NFL system for headsets, etc. Is an infrastructure thing. I think major upgrades are needed for stadium networks, telecoms, etc. The problem is the G5 teams- if you play on the road like VT does way too fucking much at a G5 school, will their stadium be equipped? I am guessing this comes with a huge cost to upgrade. Else the fix is simple- go to the NFL model.
I was listening to the ticket here in Dallas the other day, and I forget the guest (might have been Brian Jones) that they had on but he was basically saying that while coaches will all publicly say they would be fine with the radios, that they then all go back to their ADs and tell them not to vote for it because they are stealing signs too.
its probably a bit of both
Granted and I'm not a signals guy - my point is more it don't matter what gets implemented someone will figure out a way to break it just a matter of cost/effort
We used a hardline from booth to field in high school and D3 they going to splice the line or something to tap in?
Seems like a tripping hazard.
It appears there is a bit of a smoking gun now- surveillance footage, ticket purchases etc. to prove he video taped the other teams. What is going to happen is- nothing... the kid will lie and say harbaugh did not know, etc. And Michigan will have their backup long snapper sit out 3 plays against Iowa as punishment. VT should openly cheat- big- been saying this for a while.
Except VT wouldn't get away with it like Michigan or UNC. The NCAA is nothing if not wildly inconsistent when it comes to enforcement. Michigan could get a free pass and VT gets the death penalty.
I don't think the limited gains from cheating are worth the risks.
In this case it could be extreme. I don't disagree with the inconsistency, but I could see them being pretty harsh just because they seem to very much dislike Harbaugh. I maybe I just dislike him and I'm still holding a grudge over the Orange Bowl against Stanford and I hope he gets the hammer.
Michigan Boosters are paying that kid to lie as we speak. He will tell the NCAA that he never told harbaugh or any other coaches he was doing it. The Patriots lied to the NFLs face about this. So will this kid.
The articles are already fronting the information that the kid didn't have the money for the travel or tickets without outside money being funneled in.
Yeah, but unless they have hard evidence that Harbaugh paid him directly, he'll just say he got it from a booster or some low level assistant.
As I stated before, I want an undefeated Michigan being banned from the playoffs. It might be the only chance the NCAA has to try and not be a paper tiger. They need to hit Michigan and hit them hard.
Never happen. Too much money involved - the B1G will step in and force the NCAA's hand. Follow the money. No way the B1G is going to give up that playoff revenue. No way.
Yeah, regardless of how much they have to cheat.
Cribbed from a Reddit Post:
For those who don't understand or think this is a "Big Deal."
Keep in mind 2020 was COVID year....no fans in stands...hmmmm
To be clear, I don't think all of Michigan's success is purely due to sign stealing--they have significantly upgraded their talent levels, but if you don't think a sudden +.300 increase in Winning percentage beginning very closely to when the recording scheme was formalized (at least involving the Stalions guy) have some correlation, I don't know what to tell you.
Oh, they are cheating. So is Kansas, Arizona, Louisville, Kentucky hoops. So is Auburn and Miami football. No question they are cheating. Just a matter of how good.
And in case you missed it:
Cheating is wrong.
It is. But Arizona paid DeAndre Ayton 6 figures and won a lot of games. The NCAA found out and checks notes.... nothing happed to the Arizona hoops program.
Fired coach, postseason ban and show causes for assistants, reductions in recruiting visits and times. It's not nothing.
They have been ranked in the top 5 and in the dance ever since. It really hurt their program. That coach is back coaching again at a major program, BTW. They really were affected. lol.
That illustrates a well documented problem with the NCAA, but it is not a justification for cheating. Just because some cheaters have gotten away with it in the past doesn't mean VT should start cheating.
I know you disagree, and have expressed repeatedly that VT should start openly cheating and start racking up championships because the NCAA won't do anything that matters to punish us.
I respectfully disagree. Integrity matters.
If you're in it for the integrity, then defund the entire athletic department and go the route of IVY League schools. But if you're not going to do that, then you need to be willing to play the same game using the same tactics as everyone else. And if you're not willing to do that, get the hell out and stop wasting our time.
Sorry, but I think there's a whole lot of room between those two extremes to win games the right way.
I think VT absolutely do what Kansas Basketball does- Win 95% of their games and go to a bunch of final fours. 100%. So build our program like theirs. Have our shoe provider funnel us top players and transfers and have our assistants pay said players cash. Just one example. It would be a lot of fun to see VT in the final four. If 10 years later it gets vacated, the only people that will care or remember are mouth breathing UVA and WVU fans.
They upgraded at QB (the most important position), and they weren't that far off before. In 2016 they were a yard away from a playoff birth. In 2015 and 2017, they had two 1-score losses going into OSU.
I'll wait to see as more information is confirmed. If someone was indeed video taping signs from the stands (as was recently reported) then that's bullshit, and the entire staff should get a show-cause. That's actual cheating (unlike finding a variety of ways to compensate 'student athletes' for their value).
You know how this goes. Of course Michigan did this. Of course that dude had people video teams. Of course Michigan boosters are paying him as we speak to lie to investigators. He will say he did it on his own. He will resign his position and take the cash from the Michigan boosters. We should film upcoming opponents signals too.
I think that process is already starting..listening to Sirius 84 this afternoon, they were describing Stalions as a "superfan," and talking about him writing a "Manifesto."
This is classic lone-wolf and fall-guy framework.
Guy wasn't a merely a superfan...he was employed by Michigan football and on the sideline. You don't have people on the sidelines for shits and giggles. From what I can glean, he had minimal football playing history and none as an actual X&O coach...his only purpose on the sideline was sign stealing and its impossible to believe that Harbaugh had this guy on his sideline without direct knowledge and approval of why he was there.
Still, I think you are ultimately right...this will lead to a slap on the wrist at best. The NCAA is a rudderless, corrupt, and completely inept organization--they can't be counted on for anything. And the group that really runs College Football- the TV Networks- realize that pummeling one of their premier programs and questioning the integrity of the game isn't a moneymaker for them.
Thus, there's a good likelihood that useless corporate shills like Mike Greenberg are going to suddenly start dropping "hot takes" that try to establish some plausible deniabilty for UM and Harbaugh and paint Stalions as the "mastermind," who coerced UM to hire him to their Football staff against their will...
Michigan (or at least their fans) are arguing that because the tickets were given to people that aren't actually employed to record the games they didn't break the rules. The fact that the university paid for the tickets, travel, and received the videos is besides the point according to them.
Oh...it gets even better.
The Washington Post reported that an Investigative Firm found files on Michigan computers setting the schedule and budget for this whole scheme-they presented this to the NCAA last week.
There are message board rumors that Ryan Day hired an ex-FBI agent to investigate UM and now there are fringe UM fans suggesting that Day has broken the law and needs to be prosecuted.
The punchline--the supposed source for this Day-FBI story?? Day's Pool-Guy
Message Board rumors are what they are and have to be viewed very skeptically (although more than once they have been 100% on-point) but my first thought now is that it's too bad there is a Writer's Strike because this would make for a hilarious Screenplay.
It is crazy, but what is fact is that a current Michigan staffer has been buying expensive tickets to future UM opponents games opposite the benches. There have been reports of video taping of signs (with at least one video of somebody doing the taping). That same staffer has been videoed on the sideline of UM watching the opposing signals during games and calling out things to the Offensive and Defensive coordinators, after which they change play calls. That is fact.
There are a million rumors and innuendos.
There will be an investigation. Michigan will be found to have filmed signals of advance opponents in person- which is a crystal clear violation. The school will impose that their punter miss the first half of the bowl game and the NCAA will accept that.
Got it, I will stop talking when the pool guys are around
meh. Don't do shady stuff and you don't have to worry about who's around when you're talking. Or, if you do shady stuff, don't fuckin' talk about it
Even if you're talking to a coconspirator or trusted ally, it's better just not to. Everyone has a price. The best way to keep a secret between three people is if 2 of them are dead. That saying exists for a reason. Secrets don't stay secret forever.
Yeah not my cup of tea so not really worried about that stuff.
Well that's certainly interesting
Now THAT's serious, using it against their biggest rival in the Big 10.
The NCAA may have to grow some teeth.
So will a show clause penalty on top of the recruiting suspension finally drive Harbaugh back to the NFL?
Harbaugh has been trying to get back to the NFL for years. No one wants to give him a head coaching job. That's the problem.
It's because he is a weirdo...
Maybe the Death Penalty will be on the books? Wonder if the B1G will ban UM from bowls before the NCAA does. After all they were the primary target of this cheating scandal.
There is a 0.0% chance they give Michigan the death penalty. They could be sacrificing virgins to an active volcano before every game and they'd get a $10,000 fine and lose 5 scholarships for one year.
Michigan football will get no real punishment. Mark that down.
Yeah, nightmare for Vegas trying to put a line together for a team that no longer has the cheat codes. Also if you are a team with Mich on the schedule, how close to that game do you start practicing new signals?
Any good cryptography specialist would tell you that codes need to be changed regularly and backups should be on the way even before the new ones are fully implemented.
I can give an entire lecture on signals intercepts and their consequences.
I mean, phrased that way, it's rumored that governments invest in organizations dedicated to this, but I can think of no such agency.
Specifically, with regards to 20th Century cryptanalysis, it is not without reason to suggest that naval codebreaking is directly responsible for the outcomes of two World Wars.
At the start of the Great War, the German Empire had what can be considered the most advanced cryptography in the World. They utilized a three-tier code system; one for their Navy, one for their merchant marine, and one for their diplomatic communications. Each utilized their own codebooks, but messages could be sent from any land-based or capital ship transmitter, so every shore installation and battleship could send out messages in each of the three code books.
To counter this the Royal Navy established Room 40 in October 1914 to begin the task of attempting to decode German transmissions. They got their first break upon the sinking of the light cruiser Magdeburg, which had failed to dispose of their codebooks and encryption key prior to being salvaged by the Russian navy. Utilizing this information, the Royal Navy was able to spring several traps for the German Navy, notably the Battles of Dogger Bank (1915) and Jutland.
Forcing the Germans back, the Royal Navy had inadvertently forced the Germans' hand to utilize unrestricted submarine warfare. In the most hamfisted display of incompetence, the likes of which are not seen outside Charlottesville, the Germans used their diplomatic channel to attempt to draw Mexico into a war with the United States, knowing full-well that the Americans would declare war on the Germans should submarine warfare recommence. This diplomatic channel was extremely limited due to the Royal Navy severing all Transatlantic cables that came out of Germany and Austria-Hungary. So the Germans sent the message on a roundabout loop to neutral Denmark, where it was then passed along the lone remaining cable, using the same code they'd been using since before the war broke out. This Danish cable was connected to the All-Red-Line, which, due to having the only capability in the world of providing the logistical need of cable maintenance, was located in the Admiralty building of the Royal Navy, just a few doors down from Room 40.
Old, repeatedly used codes, coming directly to those trying to decipher your codes, while at war with you, while you try to sneakily spread the largest and deadliest war the world had ever seen to that point easily led to the downfall of the German empire which so destabilized the balance of power in Europe that conditions became ripe for...that guy... to come in and fuck things up more.
Fast forward a generation.
Wireless communication is now critical in the world of naval warfare and a new greater war has broken out across the entire world. Signals intercepts now ramp up to ungodly levels.
In Europe, once again the Royal Navy and the Germans are fighting a war of information. Germans with an advanced cryptography cipher called Enigma and the British with their codebreakers at Bletchley Park, specifically Alan Turing and it is Turing who identified the critical flaw in all codes: the cryptographers themselves. For all we claim regarding the concept of human nature, if there's one thing humans like, it's pattern and repetition and if there is one thing no code can survive, it's pattern and repetition. So once again, the Royal Navy is reading Germany's mail faster than Germany can write it.
In the Pacific, Commander Joseph Rochefort and his team at Station Hypo do the unthinkable and break, not only a sophisticated cipher, but in a language that very few Americans had any familiarity. Rochefort was one of those very few, having served 3 years studying the Japanese language in Japan. Hypo began pulling together strings of ciphers that began to indicate to Rochefort and his team, individual ships, officers, and, critically, targets.
It was at this juncture, that one of Rochefort's team, Jasper Holmes, came up with a ruse. Knowing an attack somewhere in the Central Pacific was imminent, a message was flown out to a small centrally located atoll with instructions to transmit in the clear (unencrypted), with their regular mail the following morning. That message, indicating that the desalinization plant on the island had broken down, was picked up by Japanese listening posts in what is now Kiribati. They then transferred the message that the target of their upcoming offensive would be running low on fresh water very soon. As many of those words had been deciphered already, Rochefort could pin down the exact target of the next Japanese naval offensive, Midway Island. Six months to the day after the attack on Pearl Harbor, 4 of Japan's 6 fleet carriers would be at the bottom of the ocean, and the Americans would have parity in the Pacific Ocean in carrier strength for just long enough before the Essex swarm arrived and ravaged the Japanese Fleet from 1943-1945.
TKP, come to dunk on UVA and stay to read the 800-word lesson on naval code breaking (posted by a middle school history teacher probably while his students are taking a test) that also dunks on UVA
It really is this kind of content, produced by TKPC members, that makes the membership worth it.
Planning block, but the point still stands.
Hey, I've seen that movie
It's insane seeing what message boards from different teams have been digging up. They have been going back and finding previous posts that have to do with a either a person filming a sideline from the stands not wearing either teams colors or references to a friend having extra tickets that were paid for by Michigan in a game that Michigan isn't playing in. All of these posts have been dated from prior to this news breaking.
I have to wonder what kind of camera they had? My zoom isn't that good to record signs from across the field.
The Oregon board had the picture of a guy just using his phone to film only the offensive play calls.
Yeah this all feels very similar to the UNC cheating scandal, with (in that case) the Pack Pride message board regulars digging up and posting more info on a daily basis. Except in this case it's distributed computing.
What happened to UNC hoops again? oh nothing. That's right.
How far back does this go, because those fuckers need to vacate the Sugar Bowl title. Danny caught it, dammit
That was on the replay officials.
Turns out they were either legally blind, or judgmentally impaired. Or both.
Michigan's punt gunner will sit next year for the first half against Arkansas State for cheating in the 2011 Sugar Bowl.
OK... After some time reading and as more of the story comes out I'm in the "death penalty" camp. Holy crap... They were purchasing dozens of tickets, pushing them through other people and then working in a tertiary way to get their "film crew" to other games.
And on top of that they were sharing these "stolen secrets" with other teams - teams that needed to beat high level competition so they could get into the playoff.
Pretty effed up.
It just keeps going
LOL dude is just wearing the MCU universe standard disguise, a hat and sunglasses. How the hell did he get a sideline pass is the question.
CMU = MCU... guilty.
Harbaugh has stated no staff was involved with the advanced scouting. That is correct, they paid former players, etc. to do it for them.
They've suspended Connor Stalions, with pay, during this investigation.
Yes, but my point is they are claiming no actual staff went to the games in person to scout. They paid other people do it and thus violated the spirit but not the letter of the rule.
Good for Harbaugh. Cheat as much as you can. Often. Have rogue scouts film teams live. Do it. Why? Because IF you get caught, you suspend yourself for the eastern michigan game next year and call it a day. The benefits far out weigh the risk/penalty.
and with unlimited eligiblity these days, it's even less for coaches to worry about the consequences of cheating
8 to play 6... unless you are injured. Then it's 8 to play 7... its awesome really.
Did you know Country Roads isn't actually about the states of West Virginia?
Nobody knows what Denver thought or his intent. What i DO KNOW is that if a song writer writes a top 50 song with VIRGINIA TECH in the chorus that Hokie fans wouldn't be into it- nah.. Even if the writer comes out and says the song is about a technical school in Antartica named after an explorer named virginia. Nah, Hokie's fans wouldn't like or rally around that song.
Georgia Tech had an effective passing strategy under Paul Johnson.
Absolutely. It's why Johnson was 1-9 in his last 10 against Clemson and UGA. Effective.
yeah and my dad has diabetes
Don't know what that has to do with completing 3 passes a game in modern college football?
what we really need to be discussing is which backup QB is going to set records against us this coming saturday.
Did I say something related to that 3 years ago?
this thread is a like a walk down memory lane with DCWilson
something something nick dew
I thought the ACC had rule about carry off the goal posts. Guess we might as well cheat on that one too?
I'm ok with moving the goal posts during this debate regarding moving goal posts.
I think our rivalries with Liberty and ODU bring a lot of value to the Virginia Tech football program.
I know what Denver thought..."Cool, here's a song written by someone else that I can perform and hopefully end up with a hit." and after he sang it:
Correct. Also Skynyrd did not write sweet home alabama about tide football. It was a political song. And dixieland delight is about tennessee- those are the two bama rally songs at football games. Brilliant.
And none of the Universities listed above are in the top 50 of public universities in the US. that shouldn't be shocking, and the fact they coopted songs shouldn't be either.
(cool fact, in the latest USNews rankings, outside of Cali, Virginia is the only state to have 2 public universities on the list in the top 20.)
Add Georgia to that list, with Georgia Tech at #10 and University of Georgia tied at #20 with us.
California has six in the Top 12.
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/top-...
Shoot, missed that. Thank you for catching that.
As we all know, its about Southwest Virginia, and should be sung as such every time its played, preferably shouting the SOUTH part
and here I thought I was the only one that did this
Right up there with Sweet Home South Virginia.
Does SWVA extend to Front Royal now?? Cause that's where the Shenandoah River starts.
Front Royal is where the North Fork of the Shenandoah River and the South Fork of the Shenandoah River meet but it starts way before there.
That was great.
Interesting the B1G coaches had a call with the B1G officials basically saying "do something. prove you are a competent strong leadership."
And if the ACC tried this with one of the Tobacco Road schools...
Speaking of cheating- RIP to Coach Robert Montgomery Knight. A hall of fame coach and arguably the greatest college hoops coach ever. And unlike scumbag Bill Self, he didn't need to bribe players with money to win. RIP coach.
I'm wondering if they bury him face down as he requested so his critics can kiss his ass. Legend.
"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down, and my critics can kiss my ass!"
I can only hope so!
He actually struck me as one of the biggest asses in sports. Should have been at UVa. Really one of my most disliked.
Probably should have put this under DFWHokie's first comment and not here.
He wasn't classy enough for loluva. They would have never dreamed of having him wander their court.
He was no bigger an ass than Coach K or Beoheim- they are bullies, talk down to the media, micro managed every aspect of their programs, thought they were untouchable- just like Knight, but those two put on a phony façade. Same/Same. Knight was simply unapologetically in charge of every aspect of Indiana basketball, and he didn't care if that pissed people off. Yeah, he cussed out his players, etc- but it takes a type of person to handle that. Isaiah Thomas and Quinn Buckner love him- would do anything for him- as do most of his players. They could handle the tough coaching. Kids today can't and knight would be sued by a parent for telling their son to set a fucking screen. Today, we have to ask kids nicely to set screens. Calhoun was also just like knight - nobody cared though. It's a different era for sure. Knight- a brilliant basketball coach of the game and teacher- wouldn't last one year today.
FTFY
It worked on Private Pyle. For a little while.
"Sup, Knight?"
Shoes are beginning to drop, apparently
He took the refuse to cooperate route so school fired him and now can play the we didn't know anything game.
ESPN (at least as of now) is reporting that he resigned..not sure what the discrepancy is.
Either way, the strategy UM football going to take is obvious here...get him off Staff, have him refuse to cooperate and paint him as a "lone wolf" who set up this elaborate and extensive scheme on his own accord. Football Staff had no knowledge of his activities, naturally.
Unfortunately, there's the small, tiny, slightly troubling fact that he was EMPLOYED BY THE FOOTBALL PROGRAM and reporting has suggested that his "itineraries" were found on computers within the football department.
The NCAA is obviously just stupid enough to fall for this shit, but Harbaugh's bigger concern might be the B1G weighing in because it certainly seems like he pissed off pretty much every other coach in the conference.
Dear Jim,
If you are going to be a giant, cheating douchebag, at least be a smart one. Don't hire the guy you are using to cheat and put him on your sideline. It's called plausible deniabilty...and you screwed the pooch royally on that one.
the sign stealing may technically be unrelated to the FBI investigation of the Co-OC, but I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't some overlap in the information gathering. I mean, if you are looking at "fraudulent activity involving someone accessing university emails accounts without authorization" re: the football staff, you might look at the contents of more than one computer.
Don't think the NCAA will be stupid enough to fall for it. They just won't care and will ignore the infractions giving Michigan no meaningful penalty.
And Central Michigan will get hammered for something minor later this year.
You're probably right. Maybe they can hammer CMU for lack of institutional control for allowing other team's staff on their sideline?
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/ex-college-football-staffer-shared-21002173...
The plot thickens. Definitely a told you so for DC, everyone out there cheating.
Only way out is for the big ten to out law signals in big ten games. Make them run a player on and off each play.
One anonymous guy from some B1G school means EVERYONE is cheating?
If his whole job is stealing signals, why is he coming clean to Michigan? He may well be a "double agent" from Michigan. Yes, that's how seriously they take their cheating, and I expect them to try and make this as cloudy as possible.
I found this part of the article interesting:
So now Michigan is taking advice on how to fix football games from Wrestling stars?
In any event, the NCAA can't let this go, and Michigan shouldn't get a pass.
The dirtiest player in the game!
The B1G has announced they are considering actions against Michigan. Apparently they have to announce to Michigan they might get punished before they can actually do anything.
Nothing of substance will happen to Michigan football. Nothing. At most they suspend Harbaugh for the first half against Indiana.
Harbaugh has already said he's suing if they try to suspend him
Of course he is. I mean, what major hoops or football program doesn't cheat each and every chance they get? In every area? The answer is none.
The punishment should be that everybody gets a copy of their signals for the post season.
The punishment should be fucking real. But it will never be. By real I mean caps on transfers, scholarships, NIL money for cheating. Else it goes on rampantly and more than ever. You think scum like Bill Self and Lane Kiffin have ANY incentive to have real legit student athletes on their rosters? That they didn't break the rules to sign? Nope. Zero incentive. If you did not allow Self to accept any transfers for 2 years, he might have to actually fucking coach a basketball game or two for his 10 million salary. Maybe Kiffin would have to study some film. But like I said, the days of real punishment are long gone. Now its ceremonial bullshit- "vacated" wins and show causes for the DOBO or 4th assistant. Horse shit. and so will this Michigan deal be. Nothing real will happen.
Nothing will ever happen to any program that brings money to the NCAA.
Brian Kelly killed a kid.
Penn State covered up child rape.
Cheating is nothing. If the NCAA isn't going to seriously punish schools for rape and murder, why would they give a rat's ass about sign stealing?
Michigan impinged on the sanctity and integrity of the sport.
UNC literally had fake classes that kept athletes eligible and they got hit with.... shit they didn't face a damn thing for it, and that impinged on not only the integrity of the sport, but the integrity of the whole concept of the student athlete.
The UNC football and basketball teams - both men's and women's - should probably have gotten the death penalty. If not because other students had access to the same things, then the school, or at least the departments involved, should have lost their academic accreditation. That UNC joke might be the biggest joke the NCAA ever did.
The lead investigator on the case was a UNC alum.
The NCAA doesn't give a flying fuck anymore. They're too scared to ever swing the big banhammer again as they're scared shitless of having their authority challenged in legal courts because they know they'll lose. And everyone knows it. At this point, if you're not brazenly cheating in some form, you're stupid.
Preach it. Baylor's hoops coach literally covered up a murder on his team. Their hoops team won a national championship after that. Something Maryland, UVA, Syracuse, Tom Izzo- have also done only once. Gonzaga has never won one. It's infuriating. Baylor hoops should have rotted on the vine SMU style, but nah- they can hire a scum coach and pay non-students to get a Natty after they covered up a murder.
There is some hilarious Mutually Assured Destruction shit going on between anOSU and Michigan. Absolute popcorn material.
This continues to be the gift that keeps on giving...
the fact that this guy would rather whine like this in court instead of just moving the fucking vacuum cleaners tells me all I need to know about him
Not to mention the fact that he said that he must not like him because he is a veteran. WTF dude? Really?
I mean, some veterans ARE just so INCREDIBLY unlikeable. Usually the ones that did 4 years (0 deployments) and then tweet about not getting military discounts while driving their lifted pickups in a backwards hat, wraparound shades, and a grunt style tshirt.
If somebody is that eager to push the veterans card, I just ask what their MOS was when they were in, you'll either get a good story or BS.
1. I am naturally curious, as a military historian, to learn the stories of veterans, and have a bunch that I have obtained through the years.
2. Nobody who is pushing for a veteran's discount is going to say they were a 12Kilo, 36Bravo, 42Romeo, 47anything, 51Zulu, 640Alpha, 88Mike, 92Sierra, 92Yankee, 92Whiskey (no matter what 'The Weasel' says), like an asshole. Generally speaking, those men and women had shit jobs, but hardly ever saw combat, and the few that I have talked to are humble about it.
3. If they say anything beginning with 18, they're probably full of shit. Same goes if they say they were a sniper (Sniper isn't an MOS)
4. Additionally, most BS stories come from people claiming to be Army. A Marine isn't going to be subtle about it. They will say what they did and somehow there is another Marine within earshot who can verify. If somebody claims to be Navy or Coastie and they give you an MOS, they're full of shit, as their system is "ratings" not MOS (shoutout to my grandfather, Engineman Third Class, USS Murray DD-576, 1961-63), Same goes with the Air Force (specialty codes) (shoutouts to my uncles 11FXB, 11FXH). Space Force.... you know what, you can have that one, potato.
Granted, most of the above is mostly to counter the stolen valor types. Bonus points if the camo they are wearing in Applebee's doesn't match.
"I was in Group, so basically an operator."
"You were a supply sergeant in the GSB [Group Support Battalion]. In the Alabama National Guard."
"Group! You wouldn't understand."
Or my other favorite:
"Yeah, I was support. Did a bunch of trips with the teams. I was basically part of the team; they wanted me to go to the course, but I couldn't because [reason]."
Now I really wanna know why he had so many damn old busted up vacuum cleaners. Is the appliance refurbishment side hustle that lucrative? Why were they all broken? Did he break them himself? Does he pull a Thor and smash every glass after he drinks something that appeals to his taste buds, and then repeatedly assume he can vacuum the shattered glass and try over and over again, ruining the lives of poor vacuums in perpetuity?
The people need answers.
Sort of. He really just breaks each vacuum cleaner after one use, because it will never again be used by anyone as worthy. But he does imagine himself Thor when he does it.
I heard he was referring to them as his exes.
He was reselling them on Amazon as "refurbished" items:
It gets better - current Michigan RB Blake Corum is a co-owner of the business and Corum is denying that he was involved.
This will become the first true crime podcast I am enthralled with.
What a fucking cesspool college football is. I'm just about done with it. You have states like Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana that can't afford drinking water but drum up billions of donations for lord college football. Kids in Kentucky can't read, but Calipari runs an NBA squad. People will do anything - commit crimes, bribe people, mortgage their house for college sports. Fucking joke
I fucking love the drama. It's like a bravo TV show but better because it goes hand in hand with football. I can't get enough of the off field drama. It's hilarious.
Edit: but yes, this stuff blows my mind:
America, baby! Greatest country in the world!
Well, clearly those kids don't actually value drinking water without lead in it. Otherwise they would have worked harder at sports /s
Was the RB at U before NIL? If so was the LLC set up as a way to legally fund money to a player? Donors buy $10,000 vacuums?
Finally, someone in the football world besides Robert Kraft paying $10,000 for something that sucks and blows.
No. Safe to assume that he had other revenue streams for that $485k house.
Unless he chose that house on an episode of House Hunters. ;^)
Watched a recent Lakefront Bargain Hunt renovation. It's ridiculous. Dude had a concrete poured huge gazebo patio with stone and a roof, and he was like - "that cost 9K"... lmao. Right. It would cost 90K in reality what he had built. The numbers never add up on those shows.
I have always wondered if they are just quoting material costs on some of those shows. Take Maine Cabin Masters. They will completely redo cabins, some with whole new roofs (and new windows) on a budget of like 25-30k. That would barely cover the labor costs alone. I bet contractors hate these fucking shows and the expectations that it sets for people in terms of what they can get for their money.
Another completely fake thing is when they "view" several homes before deciding on one to remodel. If you want to go on any of those shows you already have to have the house under contract before you can even apply to be on the show. When they were rebooting the Fixer Upper show the application leaked (or was just published) with the minimum reno budget at something like 75k. You also don't get to keep any of the furnishings, none of that shit stays.
On one of the Mike Holmes series, he would show the materials costs, and state- this doesn't include "my guys"- so you could basically double it. The other thing that is "made for TV" is the tirage nurse married to the digital design consultant with a budget of 950K. or the long haul trucker and his stay at home wife with a 800K budget.
My favorite was the elementary school teacher married to the dog walker who had a budget of 1.5 million.
I did "love it" when the woman from "Love it or Leave it" got sued. Her contractors were not licensed in the state they were working in and the house was actually condemned from their shoddy workmanship.
Right- you don't always know peoples situations- they could have inheritance etc, but yeah I have major doubts. I saw one in hawaii - where at least the dude was honest- he said on the show his dad gave him money- 6 mil- yes- to buy a home. lol.
Oh god the Love It or List It people have been based out of the Raleigh area for probably the last 5-10 years or so, and one of the episodes was done to a house in my neighborhood.
Within 2 years they had renovated the house again
Also, I have a friend who was on House Hunters. One of the stipulations on being on the show is that you have to already be under contract before they will film, and the producers will literally tell you what to say in the tours. Most of the time, the other 2 homes being toured are those of family friends, which is why one is always furnished.
Yeah you can usually guess the house they bought since it is usually the unfurnished one.
The most egregious and problematic home makeover show had to be Extreme Home Makeover. The work was almost guaranteed to be shoddy because they used volunteer labor, and then to top it off a number of people ended up losing the homes because they could not afford the taxes due to the value increase of the "improvements". I also read that Ty dude would only show up for one day but they would shoot it so it appeared he was there the whole time. That show fucked a lot of people over.
Very few cliches are truer that the ole "too good to be true" - and much of these shows are just that.
My firm did the concrete foundation design for the house in Blacksburg. We had a 10,000 psi concrete mix that was de-rated from all the required "show" admixtures to about 4,000 psi. They could walk on that concrete after a hour and started building within 2. They also poured it under 40 degrees.
Ty spent the entire week in the trailer with pot smoke coming out of it except when he was needed on set.
Along the same lines; I used to work with a guy whose dad was like the curator at the Belle Meade and Battlefield. He told us that the American Digger TV show wanted to do an episode there which they were cool with, but after receiving the contract they wanted to come out 3 months before filming and "plant" their findings. He told them to find somewhere else to pull their shenanigans.
All those shows are fake, even Dr Phil. I had a friend that was on the Dr Phil show, and Phil did help them out and pay for some stuff but their story they had to portray to be on the show was scripted to make it more entertaining and have drama.
Dr. Phil manipulates his show for ratings?
Knew a guy that used to monitor the network stuff at corporate for a retail store overnight, used to watch a lot of TV. Ended up seeing a buddy of his on Jerry Springer, one of those "who's the baby daddy" episodes. Only problem was the buddy was gay IRL.
I think we all have stories like this by now. That shit is all so fake.
Apparently his neighbor was distracting him from the important work of, ummmm, cheating for Michigan.
I'm guessing his neighbor thinks even less of him now.
There's a decent article in the Washington Post that talks about the nuances of this scandal.
While some signal stealing is tolerated, Michigan crossed a line.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/11/07/michigan-sign-stealing-...
Wow, I honestly didn't realize Fay Vincent was still alive.
I said at the time they should have suspended every player and manager who was on the Astros in 2017 for 10 games the season after the scandal came out. Then the Astros could have chosen to either play with a minor league team for 10 games, or spread out the suspensions through the year.
The problem for MLB was that there were teams that got caught doing exactly the same thing the season before (Yankees, 2016) and the season after (Red Sox, 2018). Most likely, just about every MLB team was doing some form of sign stealing in 2017. The Astros just did it in an over-the-top way. Oh, and they won. If they had lost in the first round of the playoffs, no one would have given a shit.
The playoffs kind of ruin this for college football, when it was just the polls then you punish every doing it by not allowing them to be ranked, still let them play and go to the bowl games but then the season is finished with some G5 school as the champion. You don't sacrifice money cause all the games played but then 14-0 Alabama can't claim the championship, their fans will argue as all fans will, but the weren't eligible for cheating. It's not going to fix the cheating either, it's just going to piss off every fan base which means it was a successful season!
If Vincent were still the commish at the time he would have handed down a lifetime ban to anyone that was involved or directly benefited from the sign stealing implemented by the Astros. Those that were not directly involved but had oversight (e.g., GM, ownership) would have received some kind of significant fine or non permanent ban.
What I'm saying is that Vincent still had some old school baseball mentality and wasn't the wuss that Selig was and that Manfred continued.
MLB used the mob approach. They had no choice but give immunity, else proving the case would have been impossible. I can see why they did not ban those people. Vincent let Fehr run all over him, so I have my doubts he would have went hardline.
NCAA cleared Harbaugh:
Nothing to see here people. Please disperse.
So to summarize the Connor Stallions saga so far:
Did I miss anything?
To add... the most important thing- by a wide margin in life is beating Michigan State and Northwestern. By far. Must win, must get the best players, must cheat, must set up NIL no show deals, must not require kids actually get an education...It's really more important than family, faith, and liberty itself. We MUST fucking win college football games. We must have the biggest locker rooms, the best food, the best shoes, MUST. and we will do anything - lie, cheat, steal to do it. We will hire lackie jock sniffing scum to film other teams signals. Anything to beat Indiana on a fall saturday. Nothing in life is as important.
Well, he does seem to understand college football.
I think it's still unclear if Connor O'Dea is a real person involved in one of the LLCs or a Stalions' alias. I'm not even sure, I can't keep up.
Can we just pull the plug on college football altogether? I feel like once the TV revenue bubble bursts and things start drying up, you're going to start seeing a lot more really, really shady things going on around the country.
The shady things have *always* been a part of the sport. The increase exposure has just brought a lot of it to light.
yes. my problem is the root cause. Donating to the Alabama football machine is the most important thing in life for people in that state that make 45K per year. MUST keep the machine rolling. It's life or death. Fix THAT- and you won't have to have liars, cheaters, etc. in the sport.
I mean that is old as time, Nero would have the games at the Coliseum to placate the masses and make them love him for giving them this gift. People donate to football teams so they can get the gift of seeing gladiators play a game so they can forget the other stuff in life. (some over simplification happened in this statement)
Bread and CIrcuses
Just hearing these two go at it over the Michigan sage is pure comedy. Crank up your volume
Maxing your volume with Stephen A. Smith could result in hearing loss.
My goodness that was ridiculous. And not in a watching a train wreck sort of ridiculous, that's straight up parody come to life and depressing to know this is what has become of ESPN.
That video should come with a warning for folks wearing headphones or earpods.
Hearing loss could result from listening to that.
They clearly believe that yelling makes their arguments better.
But I do like the Kardashian girl. She's hot.
She's qualified, dammit
Thought genetics56 summed this up nicely on Twitter:
"The level of incompetence, stupidity, and downright dumbery out of Michigan's football program has never before seen been in the college football world before.
1: Michigan hired a non-qualifed individual to operate as a member of their staff and committed NCAA rule violations and was so mentally insane that he created a 60-page manifesto, and was caught being on a sideline of CMU vs MSU
2: Jim Harbaugh's lawyer copied and pasted a message board post as part of a "legal" argument against the Big Ten
3: Michigan literally reached out to every sports journalist that is available to "beg" them to push PR for them.
4: Had a pedophile on staff that was caught wanting to meet a teenager at a company with liqueur in his hands
5: A coach committed computer crimes with multiple viticims in multiple states
6: Michigan claims they need a due process when Michigan themselves didn't give due process to the pedophile, Weiss, or Connor Stalions
7: Michigan fans went from wanting Jim Harbaugh fired to worshiping the soil he walks
8: An internal whistleblower is feeding all evidence to the NCAA and Big Ten
9: They claim no wrong doing was done when there is literally a paper trail of ticket purcahses, video evidence of folks recording sidelines for an entire game, LLC's were formed to finance the sign stealing operation, and video evidence of Connor Stalions talking to the cordinators what is coming before a call is made. On top of that an LLC was formed with a star RB that claims does no business with Connor Stalions. So the star RB committed an NCAA violation by being in business with a staff member or Connor committed a crime.
10: They tried to place all blame for their own NCAA rule breaking on Ohio State, a PI firm, and Ryan Day
11: Michigan fans have lost any sense of functional brain cells by saying they want to leave the Big Ten. Feel free to leave and Florida State can replace you.
I could keep going on and on."
Wait, I missed these. What happened?
4: Had a pedophile on staff that was caught wanting to meet a teenager at a company with liqueur in his hands
5: A coach committed computer crimes with multiple victims in multiple states
Oh yeah! Shit show over there
Michigan coach soliciting 13 yo
Computer crimes story
Geez, the whole thing is a mess. There must be something in the water up there in Michigan. Between MSU and UM that state is just riddled with institutions that are out of control
have I got news for you...
that was kinda the joke
Well, there literally is something in the water up there, at least in Flint.
Edit: I guess I'm getting started early today.
DRINK!
Isn't that also the state where some nut jobs got caught plotting to assassinate their governor?
Kidnap, kangaroo court trial for treason, then assassination
I think I remember reading about that Boopac Shakur story before, an amateur Chris Hanson. Dude ended up being killed by one of the guys he lured shortly after busting the Michigan dude.
Woah woah woah woah woah - How in the fuck was this story buried while we focus on everything else. This is a straight up crime. This is about an actual pedo working on the Michigan coaching staff and caught red handed trying to go through with the crime. AND THIS HAPPENED 8 DAYS AGO.
I think the allegation must have happened more than 8 days ago because the guy (vigilante?), Boopac Shakur (a.k.a. Robert Wayne Lee) who exposed the coach was killed in September.
Your original point stands, I think. There's a lot going on here and I think the story is, potentially, compromised by the fact the allegations are coming from lone vigilante acting outside the authority of law.
Thank you for the information and links.
Edit: reading through this, my dislike of Michigan is approaching Penn State territory.
Penn State & Michigan State (covering up team doctor abusing his patients for literal decades).
It's a Big 10 issue man... Michigan, Michigan State, Penn State, and Northwestern have all had institutional issues covering up some sort of sexual assault. Throw in Iowa's gambling issues as another institutional issue.
I don't know quite how to articulate it, but there's something really off-putting about how the institutions - that are arguably the greatest proponent of the student athlete facade - are also the most willing to protect their public image at any cost.
Say what you will about the naked competitiveness of the SEC, but there is no lying there. Football means more than school, and they admit it. The B10 jumps through landmines to avoid admitting the truth.
Has this been confirmed? I haven't heard this yet.
Yahoo is reporting that the B1G has suspended Harbaugh from game day contact with the team for the rest of the regular season. So he can coach during the week, just not on game days.
Must suck to be without Harbaugh on game day. /s
I wonder if he'll spend his time at opponent games...
Cut out the middle man...
No worries. UM will read that he has been banned from sidelines today. So he will be in his office with an 85" TV, headset, and dedicated camera man. They will figure because he isn't at the game that meets the letter of the ban but who cares about spirit.
That's exactly what I would do if I were Harbaugh. "NCAA says I can't be at my own game this weekend? Alrighty then. Let's see who my opponent for next week is and go to their game instead. I'll also wear a shirt that says: Nuck the FCAA while in the stadium"
And just to really piss them off, take a giant pair of binoculars and sit near the opponent sideline.
Maybe take that coach you just fired with you.
Well if he isn't recording...
Every PSU fan and alumni this afternoon.
Na, they are wondering how to get Franklin suspended from game day coaching so they can actually win a close game.
That's why their shirts are off.
Biff Poggi has some strong words and feelings about Jim and the allegations. Not sure if posted before or after the suspension. (On mobile so can't post link but should be super easy to find.)
Saw his comments, but Poggi owes his ascension into CFB almost entirely to Harbaugh, he's not exactly an unbiased source.
Here's the part that is conceptually very, very difficult to look past. Stalions was on Michigan's sideline --there is just no way you can convince me that Harbaugh had this guy on his sideline without having a very good understanding of what he was there for. He wasn't a position coach, had no significant playing career--the only reason he was there was to steal signs.
If Harbaugh didn't understand the full implications he was doing, it's because he didn't want to. Even if that is true (which I find very doubtful)--the evidence was reportedly on UM computers and clearly his Assistants were directly involved. As the head of the organization, you bear responsibility for that.
Harbaugh already has a precedent of lying to the NCAA, how can you believe anything that comes from him or his close associates?
Exactly my thoughts.
And how are you supposed to trust a guy named Biff going hard in the paint to defend you?
If Harbaugh didn't know what was going on its literally why "loss of institutional control" was created.
The whole thing is a sham. Michigan sued to stop the suspensions and the judge who isn't recusing (at least for now) is a Michigan alum. So you know that'll be an unbiased trial
If the whole punishment is really just three game days, then put me on the dcwilson train of break every rule you can to get an advantage. Risk is practically nothing, rewards are huge.
That is the B1G punishment. NCAA might waive all their wins for the last two season including B1G championships.
The vacating wins thing is an empty punishment. If they win a huge bowl or even make/advance in the playoffs, that money is still made. Everyone remembers the win on the field, nobody recalls if some ball less group wrote on paper it doesn't count. See Reggie Bush.
Agree, vacating wins is shit.
If they wanted to really make a punishment hurt, they make them pay back their share of the CFP money and then distribute it evenly to all the teams they have played since this started.
Will never happen, but this would send a real message and prevent ashholes like Harbuagh from propagating.
This. It won't ever happen, but it should
This + banishment from the CFB HOF + Bowl ban for any team that hires the coach in any capacity over the equivalent time after the infraction is adjudicated for the remainder of said prohibitive phase + Loss of a nominal percentage of home game revenue for the school over the equivalent time after the infraction is adjudicated
Coach gets punished
School gets punished
Players don't get punished
I am getting really sick of UM, Harbaugh, and now the media trying to defend UM. They have never denied orchestrating and conducting the cheating scandal. Harbaugh's claim of now they are America's team is disgusting.
Once you are called Captain Khaki, you have to call the team something...
If you are implying that we should not admire the Wolverines for conquering the adversity they created for themselves through an extensive, blatant and foolish cheating scheme, then I'm not sure how to help you, sir.
This play up the victim routine when they haven't even tried to pretend they were innocent is making me want the NCAA to hit them harder and harder.
The NCAA isn't doing jack. The B1G is the one punishing them so now they're whining about going to the SEC.
You used the word "admire" in the same sentence as "Wolverines". I can only assume you're talking about the X-man, and not the Michigan football team, for which no admiration is indicated.
I admire the Wolverines. They did a hell of a job maintaining resistance to the Soviets and Cubans back in the day.
I think this whole thing is dumb. Every school steals signs and every school shares intel about signs. You would be dumb if you DIDNT do that. Yeah yeah UM sent some poor schmuck to do it at every game and he was sloppy enough to get caught. I guarantee if folks tried hard enough, they'd find some rep from every school at their big name opponent's games doing the same thing.
If the NCAA and/or conferences don't want it to happen then put mics in a designated player's helmet like they do in the NFL.
"Crime is OK if you get away with it" isn't a very good standard.
It's a variant of "If you can't enforce it, it's not a law." If you catch someone breaking the rules, it's incumbent upon you to punish the culprit.
The NCAA would have to spend money to provide each school with a mandated official set. Some schools wouldn't have the money to buy them otherwise.
I don't buy this either, they all have enough money to fly 100+ people around the country for games, but not enough for a fancy set of Walkie Talkies? Could not be more than 20 grand at most. EVERY major and mid major program can afford it.
What I don't know, and am too lazy to Google atm, is the they don't already have it. Coaches already do, so it's only adding two helmets.
True, and it must cost SOMETHING to develop and maintain signals.
I think I'm in the minority, but I'm now rooting for Harbaugh/Michigan to win it all this year (at least, relative to all the bluebloods. Probably rooting for a P12 team to win it all, but I digress). I just think this is the silliest overreaction to a silly rule. I find the whole saga incredibly entertaining/funny.
Yes, you are rightfully in the minority.
Its only an overreaction if you don't consider how incredibly significant of an impact this could have had on the outcome of games.
We will probably never know the exact extent of what Michigan knew and how the information was being used because Stalions is gonna go AWOL and Harbaugh is a lying asshole. But, for instance, if you can quickly decipher that a Team is switching coverage to Cover-2 Pre-snap due to advance scouting it is a massive advantage.
If Michigan wanted to come clean and admit what they did, maybe we would find out that what they actually knew wasn't much more than what one could glean by trying to steal signals on gameday--which is perfectly within the rules. But since they have decided that rather than doing that, they are going to attempt to play the Victim Role and hire Lawyers to drag this through the Courts, I think its reasonable to assume that they used this to maximum advantage (as posted earlier in this thread, there is video footage of Stalions on the sideline during Mich-OSU clearly trying to signal something on the field pre-Snap).
And then you have to consider why this entire drama came up in the first place---because BigTen coaches noticed obvious irregularities when watching film from playing Mich over the past few years. James Franklin all but came out and said as much in a Press Conference a few weeks ago when asked about it.
Then add on the fact that Michigan was so arrogant, obvious, and ham-handed about it that it took less than a week for multiple schools to confirm that Connor Stalions had bought tickets to multiple of their contests.
The reason this rule exists is simple: smaller schools cannot afford to hire Staff to perform this advanced scouting like the Blue Bloods can (apparently, neither can Michigan without setting up front businesses that sell people broken vacuum cleaners). It gives them an unfair advantage in an ecosystem where they literally already have damn near every advantage in the world. Is it so much to ask that there be at least an element of level competition left in CFB??? I mean, if I wanted to watch a Sporting event where there was little to no doubt about the outcome in advance, I'd watch WWE....
Blatant cheating sucks, there is no place for it in sports. It shouldn't be tolerated under any circumstance. So, yes, you are going to be heavily in the minority because if there are no real rules, there is no point to having a competition in the first place.
Harbaugh's ultimate downfall here (beyond being an arrogant, deceitful prick) was fucking with Vegas's money---nobody fucks with Vegas and wins.
More likely his downfall will be the result of going 2-6 against Ohio State after this year..
Responding to the major topics in your post:
This is debatable. Michigan has a strong roster, and proven coaches. Yes, it gave them a competitive edge. How much? One extra win? Two? Impossible to say, but I don't think much.
EDIT: I'm not suggesting that it's 'debatable' if this was helpful - it undoubtedly was - I think it's debatable that it was significantly helpful. I'm suggesting that it's unclear if sign stealing made Michigan 1 point better, 3 points better, 7 points better, 14 points better
This might be the argument that I dislike the most... Suppose that for two seasons (12 games), Connor Stallions traveled to one game per week. Suppose each weekend, he spent on average $1k on air fair/travel, $250 on lodging, and $250 on tickets. That's $36k over two seasons. Texas spent over 7 times that in one weekend hosting recruits. If we are worried about inequity caused by spending in the sport, limiting analyst travel is not an effective way to do it.
And this hits on why I'm cheering for pure chaos here (which would be Michigan having a deep post season run): It yet again shines a light on the hypocrisy of the NCAA; an organization that creates billions of dollars in revenue, gambling activity, and other economic activity each year (if not each weekend), but champions the idea of 'amateurism' to further their business interests.
I understand why people are upset about this. But to me, this whole saga is so entertaining, and so ridiculous, that I just want it to get a ridiculous as possible. And the way that happens is for Michigan to make a post season run. Also, I kinda don't like the B10, so watching them all feud is pretty funny too.
The big problem with Michigan winning is that it encourages the cheating
Disobeying NCAA rules has been beneficial for decades now. It makes more sense to break rules and win than not. That's literally DCWilson's entire bit on this site.
And he's absolutely right. The ncaa has been toothless for a long time and it pisses me off to no end that cheating is (basically) rewarded in this sport. So much so, that despite how humorous some may think it is, I could never root for the biggest cheater to win.
Yeah, we can't have a perfect world. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
Yes, teams cheat. and yes, when you catch them, you should punish them in some meaningful way.
Oh, I know the routine. "But what about the players?"
You are damned right. Brent Pry should absolutely cheat and send Billy Ray Mitchell or someone to film games and give him the signals of opponents- 100%. Why the fuck not? He will be suspended for the VMI game- maybe- and we're good. Mike Young should have Nike bribe kids and pay them 6 figures too- 100% Nothing will happen to him.
Because it's wrong. Just because you won't get in trouble for breaking the rules doesn't make it ok to break the rules. That's called integrity.
Honestly the number of people on here advocating for cheating disgusts me.
Integrity? Like open free agency now? where you have coaches actively trying to steal your players with better NIL deals every year? Integrity? Like UNC setting up fake classes for players? that horse left the barn long ago. Until there is ANY effort to clean up the sport, I'll continue to mock it.
The ONLY time integrity and NCAA sports gets put in the same sentence is in the IVY league and the service academies. Beyond that, it's do as much as possible without shining a light on yourself...at the moment.
Sorry to burst a bubble, but academies don't get a pass. Athletes get special treatment relative to other students in order to keep teams functional. Admissions standards are lower, PT requirements get waived, they get extra "help" with academics, and if they're really good, their service obligation gets finagled so they can go play pro ball.
Everything is relative.
UNC got caught setting up fake classes, and were ridiculed relentlessly for it, in addition to having to clean up their act, and diminishing their degrees.
That's not nothing.
It's pretty bloody close to nothing
Was enough so they stopped doing it.
Was enough, they stopped doing THAT.
Sunshine is the best disinfectant.
Ostensibly
I get what you're saying, and I think there's a lot to be said for personal integrity and ethics.
On the flip side, the institution of the NCAA hasn't had integrity since money became the driving force. That's why the blue bloods and the big money making teams don't get punished, but we laugh about the NCAA punishing Missouri for Alabama's misdeeds. Missouri or directional Illinois State Tech don't make money for the TV networks, so they can be punished and the NCAA can look like they're doing something.
I would argue that just because there is a rule doesn't mean that rule is just. I break the speed limit, use illegal substances, jaywalk, etc; I don't think that makes me immoral or lacking integrity.
The other part of this - the primary reason why I'm cheering for Michigan now - is that I think the system in place is so damn hypocritical and corrupt that it needs to be torn apart. If this 'victimless crime' (as Steven Godfrey described it) will anger people enough to inspire change - or even if it's just another straw on the camel's back - then I'm here for it. The ends justify the means IMO.
Who decides what rules are "just"? And is the way to change them simply give them the middle finger?
This is a good questions. It's not black and white. There are a variety of philosophical frameworks you could work through to reach a conclusion.
If one team giving the rules a middle finger causes enough outrage that the structure of the sport is changed for the better, then I would argue yes.
Fwiw, I recognize that this my opinion, and like my asshole, my opinion probably stinks, but, I'm enjoying this reality-tv-esk saga, and I'm hopefully that it becomes sillier, more entertaining, and maybe does some good in the long run.
My issue is generally- I know that jaywalking is a law. It is. To deny that is my issue. I could not be a fan of the law, but its the law. Lobby your politicians to change the law, but don't pretend it doesn't exist or isnt fair- it was voted on at some point.
It's not about the law; it's about the system.
The system (aka the NCAA) is intentionally designed to be taken advantage of by a select few. My theory is that this will not change unless the common fan understands this and wants to change this. I think/hope this scandal will help get us closer to that end.
Also, as I've said before, I'm in it for the soap opera of it all.
I would argue that just because there is a rule doesn't mean that rule is just. I break the speed limit, use illegal substances, jaywalk, etc; I don't think that makes me immoral or lacking integrity.
Sort of depends.
While I don't love speed limits, they do have value sometimes in that they save lives. And though the folks setting them up do get it wrong sometimes, they're probably better at it than the average individual, who doesn't have access to the data.
The point is that if you speed and get caught, you get consequences. THIS is where Michigan is right now. They got caught. And they damn well should get some consequences.
Nobody likes rules. But we have them because some folks don't have the best judgment.
TBF, that is not the only way to change law. And if you really want a change an established law, history shows that lobbying legislatures will not work. The U.S. legislative systems are slow and often do not help those that are disadvantaged by legislature-made law. Civil rights, marriage rights, NIL, etc. were not established by lobbying politicians, but by breaking the rules and bringing greater attention to such issues.
Exactly! You don't have to break a rule to challenge its validity. The NCAA changes rules all the time. Same with laws. You don't have to break a law to challenge it or lobby to change it.
I live in Northern VA, I see people going 25 MPH over the limit, tailgating and cutting people off, driving aggressively, etc. I see 25 people a day run red lights in Leesburg, in heavily trafficked pedestrian areas. I've been almost hit by cars multiple times. I've narrowly avoided accidents with cars driving recklessly an uncountable number of times. Car accidents happen every day. These laws exist to protect property and lives. Being in a hurry or late for work are not an excuse. There are a million reasons to justify breaking a law or rule you see as an annoyance, I've done it, everyone does it.
But being able to justify it to yourself doesn't excuse you. If you break a law, even an unjust law, you have made a choice and you are responsible for the consequences. If a law is truly unjust, you may ultimately be responsible for enacting a positive change. Congrats, I'll watch the movie about your life. But don't kid yourself too much, you aren't challenging injustice by speeding or running red lights or getting high. You're serving yourself and that's it.
Michigan isn't cheating because the rule is dumb, they're cheating because they want to win and they don't mind breaking rules to do it. The impotence of the NCAA is beside the point. The behavior of Michigan and UNC and all the other schools who cheat is not behavior to be emulated. I have zero problem with people mocking the NCAA and this whole stupid situation with Michigan. I do have a problem with people suggesting that Virginia Tech should join in.
Sorry for the novel, but I wanted to be clear. In my opinion winning isn't worth breaking the rules for. Do it the right way or I'm out. I know others don't agree, and watching the Hokies hoist that championship trophy is worth whatever it takes. But not to me. Win with integrity or you didn't win anything worth bragging about.
We obviously do not agree on much in regards to this scenario, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the entirety of College Football is corrupt and hypocritical.
The issue I would have in this situation would be this....does tacitly allowing blatant, premeditated cheating help stem that in any way?
And here's my bigger overall concern with letting the system be "torn apart." Who is going to be the one who is going to put the pieces back together???
The obvious answer is the people who control the money---the TV Networks. So, you're going to have even more rule changes that shorten Gameplay in order to fit in 3 more Hyundai and Coors Light commercials. The networks will partner with their Conference affiliates to manipulate the Rules to be advantageous to the Conferences they have contracts with. They will (ESPN already does this) cover and highlight primarily their own products, with 2-3 sec blips of non-contract Conferences.
They blow up the NCAA and instill a new "Governing Body," which is driven by profit and quickly learns that punishing their "top earners," doesn't help the bottom line so Michigan, Bama, USC, ect. get to pretty much trample all over the rules without any regard.
The NCAA sucks, it is a miserable, toothless and corrupt organization. There is no argument to be had there. And I don't know that there is a long-term "solution" to the corruption that already exists. But not punishing teams caught in obvious and intentional violation of their rules certainly doesn't make for less hypocrisy or corruption.
And handing the reigns over to Fox, ESPN, CBS, and NBC certainly doesn't seem to be a likely pathway to less corruption.
For what it's worth, I'm not suggesting that the NCAA should avoid punishing harbaugh/Michigan. I'm just saying that I'm rooting for Michigan on the field (at least for the remainder of B10 play). The NCAA and the B10 will do whatever they do. I think the NCAA needs to punish them, but I expect they won't. Regardless, I won't be that outraged either way. I'm not sure if that was clear from my previous posts.
Anyways, to answer the question 'will this help change the football governing body... my opinion is that the NCAA has remained powerful because they've carefully curated their image and has been able to convince the public that amateurism is a noble cause. Over the last 15ish years, public opinion on this has started to shift.
I think most people (or at least enough people) agree that amateurism is a sham (This is how NIL became possible).
However, there are still people who want the ncaa to help equalize the playing field. The NCAA is not designed to do this, nor is it equipped to do this. The general American sports fan does not recognize this. Until they do, the ncaa will not change. My hope is that this scandal will be another chink in the ncaa's armor, another straw on the camels back. It might not be the straw that breaks their back, but it will add to the weight.
Apologies for the poorly worded responses throughout the thread. Typically I try to sit down and actually formulate more constructive responses. Been busy lately.
The NCAA is effectively the only governing body for College Sports. As such, yeah, they should enforce the rules.
The NCAA wasn't set up with the ultimate ability to call the shots, and a lot of the money doesn't flow through them. So, yeah, they're a bit hobbled.
Doesn't mean they shouldn't try.
I would argue that Amateurism is only a scam inasmuch as we have allowed coaches to go into the Living Room of every 3* and higher High School athlete and promise them millions and NFL glory.
For the vast and overwhelming majority of College Athletes, amateurism is all that they will have. And that's for revenue sports, some sports (that the NCAA also presides over) literally have no professional option.
NIL is at least as much of a scam, maybe not entirely in concept but certainly in its adaptation.And it exists largely because a Basketball player who couldn't cut it in the NBA got pissed and wanted a bigger slice of the pie.
Truth is, nearly NO high school athlete really has value from an NIL perspective, and probably just a few of the players on any given college football team. And most of that value is local and regional (at best) and exists really only among people who are already sports fans. Look at the current VT squad---how many players have legitimate NIL value, beyond a few hundred dollars (to appear on a Podcast or something similar)? 4...maybe 5?? How many would be recognized outside of the immediate SWVA/NOVA/Richmond area???
And the idea that most college Athletic Departments are money printing machines that are somehow short-changing the Athletes is questionable at best:
https://apnews.com/article/arizona-wildcats-budget-sports-5c9195899368a55df007f626a48c5b88
The revenue from football and basketball has to pay for not only the enormous costs of those programs, but also has to keep the rest of the Athletic Department afloat. TV money is really the straw that stirs the drink and my suspicion that breaking away from the NCAA to form some form of "Independent" Football League is going to lead to:
"Today on ESPN, we have the Alabama Crimson Tide (sponsored by Draftkings) vs. the Texas Longhorns (courtesy of Regions Bank). Just like last year and the year before it, the Polls have Alabama at #1, Ohio State at #2, and the Regions Bank Longhorns at #3. We are playing today on Diet Pepsi Field inside of Toyota Tundra Stadium and would like viewers to note that the playing surface just got a fresh coat of Scott's and is looking great today. Also, Alabama would like users to note their new Uniform Patch from Gain Laundry Detergent. We can't wait to get the action started today, after this seven-and-a-half minute commercial break."
"And now that we're back Alabama's quarterback, John Smith, would like to send out a message: he loves his Mom, almost as much as he loves the refreshing taste of the new Cool Blue Mist Gatorade after a tough day on the Gridiron."
Yeah, count me out on that shit.
If you read The Sinful Seven, (it's half non-narrative non-fiction, half sci-fi allegory), they walk through the history of the NCAA, and the history of amateurism. I don't have the time to walk through the details, but It was created from the get-go to be a way to maintain control and eventually avoid sharing money with athletes.
When I call amateurism a scam, this is what I'm referring to. It was a palatable way for the ncaa to keep athletes in their place. Never had anything to do with leveling the playing field.
If Honor is less important than winning we should change the pylons. Might as well ditch Leadership and Sacrifice while we're at it. Just replace them with hookers and blow.
If none of that stuff matters and winning is the only thing that counts then why are these teams even affiliated with universities? Just start an NFL minor league and ditch college football entirely.
People who honestly believe Virginia Tech's football program should be cheating more need to take a long hard look at their priorities in life.
As a former cadet that has stood vigil on the pylons, of course I don't think winning is more important than honor. Of course not. My point is that- all of the big programs cheat in a big way. Bama has been paying players cash for the entire Saban era. If Bill Self is in a basketball gym, he is cheating. Bruce Pearl is cheating at Auburn- I'd bet my mortgage on it, and it will come out sooner than later. You think Calipari's NBA farm team is on the up and up? His relationship with World Wide Wes is within NCAA rules? LMFAO. As long as it's allowed and in fact encouraged, this is who VT is trying to compete with. To your point about the pylons- clean up the fucking sport. That would be my #1 recommendation. then we don't have to conflict with the pylons.
I agree 1000%. All those cheaters getting away with it sucks and something should be done and the NCAA has always been impotent. Mock them and all the cheaters.
I don't want VT to cheat. Many would be happy to have a national championship even if we all know we cheated to get it. To me, it's not worth it. I would be forever disappointed with Virginia Tech if they pulled some shit like Michigan.
So should we clean up the sport or cheat and cheat big? Those are 2 very different recommendations.
One we can do, the other we can't. I will let you decide which is which.
Those aren't the only two options.
For example, specifically in reference to this scandal we could jump on the allow 2 players to be mic'd up bandwagon instead of the let's start stealing signs too bandwagon.
We can't do either. As fans, should we yell into the void about cleaning up the sport or activity advocate for our team cheating in any way possible to win games?
I would love for the NCAA to prove they aren't a paper tiger and actually hammer the teams that are or have blatantly cheated. I wanted UNC & Miami to get the death penalty even if that would have drastically hurt our conference. I want them to hammer Michigan hard enough to really hurt them. They were caught red handed, haven't denied they did it, and their response was to point their finger at other teams who didn't do the same thing.
It seems like the NCAA is afraid of being sued to the point where they are just not doing their jobs. Yes, it took SMU twenty years to recover. How much of that was SMU not being in a good conference? Recover in today's environment will be quicker. They hit PSU, but they had players coming out of the woodwork wanting to restore the team to glory.
Just do your job. Issue Harbaugh a show cause for three years, ban Stalions from ever being on staff at an athletic program again. Michigan loses 5 scholarships for three years.
Whatever ones generates more wins and revenue for the University and generates the least amount of repercussions.
I use WE because I feel as I am apart of VT as a fan and alumni. That will never change.
I'm pretty sure dcwilson is using a Reductio ad absurdum argument with respect to wanting everybody (including Virginia Tech) to cheat as much as they can. While he does say some pretty outrageous things sometimes, I can speak to his integrity (especially when it comes to dropping the hammer on those skipping a General's address, nub nu bud), and I'm sure his recommendation to clean up the sport is in line with his true beliefs.
Well it's not working for a portion of TKP that is parroting this sentiment.
There's a lot of angst about the NCAA and their preferential treatment of bluebloods, fueled significantly by the growing competitive imbalance in college football. I'm half-ready to burn down the system along with the rest of the protestors with torches, but not quite so far as cheating while the system remains unchanged.
I would be interested in what the landscape would look like with the power going back to the conferences, but I don't think it would be much better overall and it would probably become much worse in some conferences, but something needs to give and the NCAA needs a serious attitude adjustment or to GTFO.
It's really not debatable as to whether it gave them a competitive advantage. It clearly did---otherwise they wouldn't have done it or would have shut it down quickly once they found it was minimally effective. Multiple coaches (Kiffin most notably) have stated this would be a huge advantage strategically. I don't see how there is any logical argument to the contrary.
Beyond that, Harbaugh took a pay cut several years ago after recurrent disappointing seasons. Then, corresponding very closely to when this was all supposed to have begun, he takes a 180 and is winning at a .900 clip??? It's not like he was playing with a hodge-podge roster before; he has recruited well since he was there. In truth, his higher ranked composite classes were earlier in his tenure ('16, '17). It's not explainable by just having better players. Texas A&M has really good players too...with very different results.
It's not really an argument, it's the rule and the rationale behind it. Whether it is a good rule or not is another debate entirely.
Yes, Texas, OSU, Bama, et al. outspend even most other P5 programs by orders of magnitude. But that's also kind of the point here...they already get the best players (and when they don't then they simply tamper with other team's players go lure them into the Portal)---is it really so outrageous to expect or ask that they don't also know the plays that are coming before they are called?
Maybe I shouldn't care and should adopt he "let the World burn attitude," too, but despite all the bullshit of the last 10-15 years, I'm not quite there yet.
You should. You gotta focus on the humor in life. You'll be so much happier.
You should sleep late, man. It's just much easy on your constitution.
And here's an even better argument...one of Michigan's "proven coaches" ----Josh Gattis.
Brought in as O.C. in '19...presided over decidedly mediocre offenses in '19 and '20---44th and 66th in Total Offense, respectively.
Then in 2021, Michigan has a huge upshot to 16th in total Offense.
Gattis wins the Broyles Award and translates that into a huge raise to take the job as O.C. at Miami. He falls flat on his face and is run out of town in Coral Gables after one year.
He ends up at Maryland where he is, once again, coordinating a decidedly average offense ranked 57th overall.
So a guy with a consistent record of mediocrity suddenly becomes the best assistant coach in all of College Football during the time that this sign-stealing scheme is believed to have started??
Pretty interesting coincidence.
The advantage is with enough support staff, brain power and yes computer power when you have a video record of EVERY SIGNAL and play in a game you can pretty well draw up a reaction to every defensive signal, every hot route, option or line of scrimmage change. That's a huge advantage.
Total offense is a useless stat. Do you have that info for SP+ or some other stat that is adjusted for tempo, starting field position, and opponent?
Regardless, this is far from evidence that sign stealing is a significant schematic advantage.
...and this is where people get frustrated with "analytics guys."
If it can't be explained by an esoteric statistic, it must not exist.
There is no statistic for...I know your play and your on-field calls as soon as you call them. But to even question if that gives a team a huge advantage is ludicrous.
It's akin to a Professor handing half their class the Midterm two weeks early and then being surprised the other half didn't do as well. Some things just speak for themselves.
Everything about Michigan's on-field performance has taken a massive uptick since 2021 and it is not explainable by simply having better players; the Recruiting Rankings don't reflect that at all.
There are literally two groups of people on the "we're not really sure this was an advantage," train---you and the writers at MGoBlog.
Right, If Steroids- and their long term side effects and destroying your liver - don't "help you hit a baseball" and aren't "performance enhancing" then why did you take them? If stealing signs doesn't help, then why do you do it? That's what the patriots said.. laughable. Bottom line- you can't live advance scout in college football- and Michigan did that.
I was very imprecise in my language earlier, and I added an edit. This was absolutely an advantage; I don't mean to argue that. I was suggesting that we don't know how big of an advantage it was. 1 point vs 7 point vs 10 points, etc.
A fair criticism. Let me again rephrase my previous comment (which was poorly worded).
No, because the sign stealing started several years ago. That better record enabled better recruits. The better recruits means they are winning games easier. Yes, current teams are facing them without having their signs picked but they are flat out better than a lot of their opponents.
I have to wonder if Harbaugh ran a similar scheme when he was at Stanford. They were bad before he got there, good while he was there, and then went bad after he left.
The dude almost won a Super Bowl. He's a damn good coach, regardless of the helpfulness of sign stealing.
It doesn't help quantify, but to the qualitative question of "is it a big difference," I submit VT vs Clemson (2011?), and VT vs everyone else that year.
This is debatable. Michigan has a strong roster, and proven coaches. Yes, it gave them a competitive edge. How much? One extra win? Two? Impossible to say, but I don't think much..
Impossible to know but not debatable at all...obviously enough to make it worth doing. If it isn't much players would just shout out the play at the line of scrimmage. "Pass to the TE over the middle on 2" "Robber coverage, middle LB blitz!"
If you have the other team's playbook and still can't win, it's time to retire.
Did anybody else log onto here because they saw 47 new comments and was hoping something related to the case came out?
I'm just over here waiting for it to devolve into the great morality argument 2.0.
You should see what it's like in the summer when we don't have any actual sports to talk about.
Oh I've been through it. Guess that, since the team has improved the past month, there has been a lot less of it lately. Ah, brings back the good old days of debating Fu being able to rebuild or not.
I guess not having a lot of reasons to bitch about the offensive coordinator really stifles conversation options.
Hopefully we'll be spending a lot of time talking about nonsense next week too. Generally means the team is doing well, I think.
Insert "I'm for it." Gif
So to re-cap now, Harbaugh openly cheats large scale over multiple years. Gets suspended 6 games and the case is closed. Yep.
Translation: Michigan knew they couldn't beat the evidence
Also translation: no real punishment given. He can coach right up to 5 mins before kick off
Because the conference has limited ability to punish, 3 games is max. NCAA is enforcement arm for universities.
Prediction: Michigan plays in the 2023/24 college football playoff. They may even win a national title. Harbaugh takes a 12 mil a year NFL job and walks away. Michigan signs a higher rated recruiting class than VT ever has, and they win 11-12 games the next several years post harbaugh. No real impact to their program for openly cheating, getting caught. no impact.
aka, the Pete Carroll maneuver
Except, SC kind of went down quickly due to Kiffin/Sark/Helton etc.
Say it with me.....PATSY.
LB Coach...important enough to seem like they are doing something, but low enough on the totem pole that his firing won't really shake the program much.
Also, does no one else find it disturbing that Harbaugh has consistently hired former HC from High Schools where Michigan has developed "pipelines"? Paramus is a perennial power and Biff Poggi came from St. Frances in B'more where Michigan has also pulled multiple high-level recruits.
Didn't Beamer hire Curt Newsome so we could get Tyrod?
Newsome was at JMU for 7 years before coming to Tech, and didn't coach at Tyrods HS.
Certainly kills THAT rumor.
Nobody tell him where Elijah Brooks coached before....
But, tbf, he was out of DeMatha long enough for recruiting specific recruits quid pro quo, which is what I think you're suggesting may be going on with Michigan.
The Connor Stalions documentary on Netflix is pretty good.
Dude is absolute nut job. Peak college football.
This was who he worked for/reported to/had nothing to do with depending on whom you believe...
I mean....
Everyone on this board knows that Michigan cheated openly and in a big way and Harbaugh was 100% involved. And you also know that nothing significant will happen to michigan. Which brings me to my last point- I hope Pry is cheating any which way he can. Just win baby- nothing real will happen anyway if you get caught.
Harbaugh has already been hit with a show cause ruling over the hamburger recruiting incident and refusal to cooperate/apologize. UM is going to shove him under the NCAA bus as much as they can. They don't want the NCAA to remove the last three years wins (especially the Championship).
Agree- so in other words, there will be no scholarship reductions, no portal addition limitations, no NIL penalties- nothing meaningful. At worst they strip some wins from the guy not coaching there any longer.
Sadly, even if they strip the championship like they should (See USC), UM will keep it on their press releases and nudge, nudge we still won it.
And just like usc (i.e. Reggie Bush) in 10-15 years it'll all be re-instated just like no infraction ever occurred
Just like they keep saying they won the 2011 Sugar Bowl, when we all know that is not the case.
Because, you know, that would hurt the current/past/future players.
So no actual penalties can ever be levied.
SPOILER ALERT: 1. I have never watched a more predictable documentary- never. Jordan's was close- hes an uber competitive asshole that made up things to be disrespected about- yeah no kidding. But this one- fucking set your watch by it. Let's re-cap :
1. Michigan is sick of losing to Ohio State, so they start cheating.
2. Just so happenstance, a kid that has perfected cheating and has spent years honing cheating is a life long michigan fan- GO BLUE! (above all else- you will sense a theme here)
3. Harbaugh uses Uncle T (huge michigan booster) to find and pay this kid to cheat- elevates him from intern to on field staff faster than anyone in CFB history has been promoted.
4. Because- GO BLUE!!!- a marine officer, naval academy grad - GO BLUE- Will cheat, lie, sacrifice his integrity and reputation because beating Purdue is more important. Let that sink in. And idiots like me question why people pay college players. Childs Play. this is a marine that said fuck the honor code, I am going to cheat for Michigan.
5. Uncle T being removed from his board post when the scandal broke and Harbaugh leaving his alma mater as fast as humanly possible post a national championship and finally beating OSU 3 times- BOTH total coincidence, here. Totally not related to openly cheating.
6. Stalions - a marine officer- lies about being at the CMU game- portnoy ratted him out- so what else is he lying about.
7. Rich Eisen, Dave Portnoy, Nicole Aurebach and millions of others are michigan homers protecting the brand GO BLUE at all costs.
8. There is totally a slimy Texas Lawyer involved that admits a personal vendetta against the NCAA- of course there is.,
9. stalions brought 100's of tickets to Michigan's opponents games on his own dime- because he "loves college football" Of course when questioned, he can't "recall" any certain games he attended.
10. Everyone on here knows this.... all of this is Ohio states fault. Of course. GO BLUE. Stalions cheated- advanced scouted, used underground film, Harbaugh knew, but that doesn't matter because OSU hacked his email to uncover the evidence.
Name a more predictable plot. Go ahead. People sacrifice their integrity, lie, pay millions of their own money for GO BLUE! it's the dirtiest of cess pools. Nothing more disgraceful - all to beat MSU and Purdue. That's it.
I agree that this documentary was a great watch. I was tracking this saga on r/CFB last year; this documentary reminded me of just how crazy everything was. Not a day went by where there wasn't some new wrinkle introduced that added to absurdity of this story.
Connor Stalions was not what I expected. The way he was described to be obsessive and savant-like... I expected him to be this painfully awkward guy. While he is clearly obsessive, and almost certainly has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, he was not awkward at all and I thought he carried himself well in the documentary. He even seemed to have a good sense of humor evidenced by how he was trolling people Last November in the aftermath of the investigation.
It is clear to everyone that followed the story that Michigan broke the rules. While sign stealing is legal, Michigan crossed the line by filming signs before their matchups. Connor obviously understood this, which is why he was so outspoken about the sign stealing and intentionally obtuse about the filming scheme. With that said, I actually walked away from that documentary feeling less hostile towards Michigan than I did before. The way the story was told, it seemed like Michigan was one of the few schools not stealing signs prior to Connor's arrival. So their turnaround in the last few years was less about gaining a competitive advantage and more about eliminating a competitive disadvantage. Like I said, they clearly took it too far, but the fact that they still won the title and beat Penn State, Ohio State, Alabama, and Washington without Connor tells me that they were still the best team.
Would they have had the recruits for years two and three of the scheme if they cheating had not been paying off is my big question.
No sane person believes that the 2-3 mins TOTAL that ESPN spends on happening to catch the signs going in on a live broadcast- which you can use/steal- is the genesis of his scheme. Nobody believes that. He made it seem like the TV broadcast enabled you to steal entire playbooks of signs. laughable. Yes watching games on TV and pausing the signals going in the 5 times they show it live is "legal". Right. His underground network of film exchange is NOT legal though and he just glossed that over "everyone does it". Horeshit. They cheated large. Stalions cheated- 100% full stop. Call it what it is. Harbaugh couldn't get out of there fast enough. Stealing baseball signs is legal too. What the astros did was not. this is the same exact fucking thing. What the patriots did- not legal. Fined a million dollars, lost draft pics. To this day brady and belichick say it was legal. Fuck Michigan, Fuck Stalions. A marine officer who sold his integrity for college fucking football. That's where we are.
this seems to be more prevalent these days - it's a problem