https://www.wral.com/story/deadly-unc-crash-football-player-was-15-yards...
Travis Shaw, 19, was charged with underage possession/consumption of alcohol, five counts of aid/abet underage possession/consumption of alcohol, and an outstanding order for arrest for failing to appear in Durham County for possession of marijuana, underage possession of alcoholic beverages and unauthorized possession. Warrants show Shaw allegedly bought three bottles of tequila at Still Life.
Zachary O'Brien Rice, 20, of Virginia, was charged with driving after consuming while younger than 21, consuming/possession of alcohol younger than 21 and exceeding a posted speed limit.
Malaki Hamrick, 19, was charged with underage possession/consumption of alcohol.
One would think after two bad accidents resulting from racing among UGA players coaches would empathize the stupidity of this.
Comments
Drunk driving, tailgating and going 124 mph in a 45mph zone
The sheer volume of bad decisions made to have this happen absolutely boggles the mind. Unreal carelessness.
Coaches may have been emphasizing how bad an idea this is, but let's face it, a lot of 18-20 year olds do dumb things. Myself included. Never anything this bad, thank goodness.
By the way, looks like the link is no longer working. This one says now 7 charged.
https://chapelboro.com/news/crime/ale-investigation-into-chapel-hill-fat...
3 football players of the 7 total people charged is my understanding
Regarding stupid youth alcohol and bad outcomes, "there but for the grace of God go I".
Might be a rough opening 30 minutes of Game 1 with all those players suspended for the first half, but I'm sure they'll find a way to get the W in the 2nd half. /s
Read more at: https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/orange-county/article28...
Sadly, the incident cost one student their life, and they're lucky it wasn't worse.
Unfortunately, when you're that age you have a certain feeling of invincibility.
Former 5-star target from LCA, Zach Rice, is one being charged. Have been very perplexed that he has not been playing, especially with their oline struggles.
Travis Shaw is also a 5 Star DL.
at what point do we blame bad parenting?
I mean, these are college students, not teenagers living under their parent's roof.
my favorite, overly simplistic parenting advice: if you don't like the way the painting turned out, take it up with artist not the canvas...
I think this is fair. I do think, however, in this instance (college students making dumb decisions while hanging out with other college students making dumb decisions) that pointing the blame at the parents might be unfair.
I will say I am not a parent so my viewpoint can, and should, be taken with a grain of salt.
I admit I'm still in the phase of parenting where I feel like I have a say over my kids (oldest is just entering teenage years). And I also admit that I have the benefit of hindsight and can see how my parents did a crap-ton of stupid things that resulted in some wildly dysfunctional adult kids. Even so, I'm not saying you can blame the parents for the specific decisions of a 19 year old kid. However, I do think that how you parent has direct bearing on the decision making ability of said 19 year old. You just spent 18+ years as the largest influence over someone during their developmental years. Your example, your attitude, your choices and strategies, etc all did 80%+ of the formation of this adult. If they lack the discernment to not go binge drinking (which I admit impairs judgement so I'm not even going to touch what happens after), you can't just shrug your shoulders and say "well, he's not under my roof anymore."
Strongly agree here. I've seen a lot of studies indicating that binge drinking/excessive alcohol use are about 50% genetic predisposition at 50% environmental factors/upbringing and parenting around alcohol. Some people may have a genetic predisposition toward those behaviors, but I firmly believe environmental factors steer people toward making those poor decisions - either being in an environment where that type of behavior occurred and was normalized, or being so hyper restricted on information about alcohol to the point it is taboo, so it develops an allure and peer pressure can play a role.
Parents need to set a good example for their kids and be open and transparent about the consequences of their actions and dangers of alcohol. I feel like most people are either way too loose with it or shelter their kids and treat alcohol as taboo - both leading to bad outcomes in adulthood IMO.
I also think society and corporations have some culpability here too, as you see alcohol commercials constantly with people partying and having a great time, with a short "Drink Responsibly" disclaimer after that's purely CYA. Or how gas stations are also some of the easiest places to get alcohol and advertising is plastered everywhere while you're behind the wheel and filling up your tank.
this is kind of the problem. The idea that your job as a parent is done when your children hit 18 is flawed. Also, the person that child is when they hit 18 is very much a reflection of the environment the grew up in. The west, generally, and America in particular, has been pretty misguided in terms of parenting practices for the last couple hundred years. This is something I've learned in my research and the reading I've done as a new parent myself. There are a lot of flaws in western parenting philosophies that have led to a lot of the social issues we face today. Elevated levels of anxiety and mental health issues along with an apathetic and, sometimes, entitled youth. The trouble is, these parenting practices are handed down generation over generation, sometimes with small tweaks, sometimes not, and we keep repeating the same mistakes. Breaking cycles is hard to do, and for that reason, many people are doomed to repeat the mistakes their own parents made. Or, sometimes worse, recognize their parents mistakes and swing way too far in the opposite direction, thus creating new problems which are often times as bad as, or worse than, the problems they were trying to avoid in the first place.
IMO- if you are truly a good, caring parent- much more parenting comes after they turn 18. Yes, it's very important to teach your kids to brush their teeth, say thank you and please, and not do meth in 8th grade. You lead by example and literally teach them basic life skills. But after they turn 18, you can teach them many more important things, IMO. Like how to make critical decisions, how to be accountable, how to show respect for people, how to do what you say you are going to do, and how to leave a job/not burn bridges. And for most there are other "fun" parenting things like- how to fly on a plane by yourself, how to get your own insurance, how to cook a medium rare steak on a wood fired grill.
I think you and I are absolutely in agreement on this point
And yet you find families where siblings have radically different outcomes as young people. Same parents, different outcomes. Many other things at play other than parenting. Parents are the easy target of blame. We all love simple explanations to complex social phenomena. 1. We like to judge, find blame and fault with others. 2. We don't like dealing with complexity as it leaves us feeling more vulnerable to the randomness of things.
There are definitely two sides to the equation. Just because a kid makes bad choices doesn't mean he has bad parents, and vice versa. Every child is issued 1 ea. free will at birth, and they will use their volition to make their own choices. You can guide them and train them and educate them, but you can't make their decisions for them. All a parent can try to do is teach them what they need to make well-informed decisions from a position of strength. Doesn't mean they'll do it.
Likewise, a shit parent can provide a kid with all the examples of how not to make decisions. They can choose to follow their crappy parent's path, or to overcome it. Ultimately, kids (especially those over 18) are responsible for their own decisions. If one decides to go out and get wasted and drive 100 miles an hour, it doesn't mean his parents failed to teach him that wasn't ok. Just because a college kid makes some terrible choices doesn't mean it's his parents' fault, and if only they'd done something differently in his childhood he wouldn't have screwed up.
I just don't think it's that simple.
True.
Even good teens make really bad mistakes.
Still, most college students know better than to drink and race on public roads.
Some of it is personality, but a lot of it is parenting. My 2 girls behave very differently and react very differently in situations, but they know right and wrong and know when they've gone too far because its been instilled in them from the start. One of the girls in my neighborhood that my oldest has known for a few years, on the other hand. She's a nightmare, complete 'sassy' brat who walks all over her parents because they (mainly the father) think that all the sassy behavior and refusal to listen is cute and quirky. Funny how they're the ones in the group who are always talking about how their kid is too much of a handful for them laments on how she never listens when they need her to.
one of five siblings here with 5 wildly different outcomes (at least as far as you can tell when we're all in 40s/50s). There are a lot of variables. There was also different parenting that each of us got. Part of it was a function of personalities. My dad responds well to some personalities and gets combative with others so those kids had different experiences. Some of us had natural talents that my parents respected more and they had a hard time trying (if they ever tried) to hide that so some kids got a lot more positive reinforcement than others. So, yeah, while there are a lot of variables, there were also varying parental fuckups kid to kid. Below is basically how too many people approach parenting:
Reminds me of the Freakonomics episode about the father who named his first son Winner, and his second son Loser.
Winner went on to become a career criminal, and Loser went on to become a model citizen and a detective for the NYPD.
The "A boy named Sue" approach (A song by Johnny Cash)
I prefer the "One Piece at a Time" approach.
Can you call my dad and tell him that?
At what point? Talk about a HUGE oversimplification of things. This is the first time underage kids have ever gotten ahold of alcohol, drank it, and drove with bad outcomes. Ever. Parents fault for sure.
At the same point that we blame genetics.
The two are not remotely related. I see folks here seem more willing to blame genetics than parenting, though.
That's kinda my point... your decision making isn't just what your parents taught you. It's a culmination of everything you've learned and experienced in life - your genetics, your environment, the response you've received to your past decisions, etc.
Ultimately, this kid decided it was a good idea to get behind a wheel when he was drunk. Could his parents have done more prepare him for that decision? Clearly. But at the end of the day, he's ultimately accountable.
What your parents or other influential adults teach you when you're really young has a huge impact, before society, your friends, and the internet take over.
Your values are formed pretty early, ideally before they get distorted by all that other noise and confusion.
You forgot the possibility of chemical changes in the body that can completely change personalities. Or other issues were some one lacks impulse control so while they know better they act before they think. There are so many factors that it's really tough to pin point anything.
No, I didn't forget about that. You do get a chance to do some imprinting when children are young, and throughout their lives.
I'm talking about raising the odds of success with something we CAN control, not the randomness of the universe. It's true, most college kids get drunk and do something stupid at some point, so you'll never get to 100% success. But you do what you can to tip the scales in favor of survival.
At the end of the day, we can't control the future, and God help us when people start trying to control the genetics, but parents can do things to improve the likelihood of success.
I will concede that the adult responsible for taking the action is ultimately the one accountable. They have to handle the consequences of their actions. In this case, the college students.
And I think there is a point about parenting that might be missing here. In our culture we're conditioned to understanding and believing that "parenting" is the sole responsibility of the biological parents of a child. That's not the case. Have you ever heard "it takes a village to raise a child"? That is very true. And it's something I've learned a lot about in the first two years of my child's life. "Bad parenting" is not isolated to the failings of an individual parental unit. It's a cultural failing. Parents in our culture are expected to raise children on their own, in silos, which is a tremendously difficult task. Humans are meant to have much more support with raising children than parents in America (and the west, generally) get. My wife and I are trying our very best to raise our child as best as we can but I know we're likely to make mistakes and mess things up. Every parent on here has done or is doing their very best. But there are going to be mistakes and failures. Most of us have to do it or had to do it with pretty minimal support. That's not any one individual's fault. It's just an unfortunate element of our culture. Bad parenting abounds, in part, because parents don't have the support and guidance necessary to be really good parents. It's not because of moral shortcomings, or laziness, or philosophical errors. It's just simply a lack of support. The parents that have the most support tend to have the best results.
These college students, who decided to get drunk and speed recklessly, ultimately resulting in tragedy, are ultimately responsible for their actions as "adults" but they likely made a long series of mistakes leading to these actions as a result of poor influences around them. Or, put another way, a lack of good parenting. Not necessarily (but probably partly) just from their biological parents. But from the "village" surrounding them. And the "failings" of their biological parents, though probably evident, aren't solely due to them being bad people or absent in their children's lives or anything. It's more likely to be simply a lack of support.
But at what point does it stop? If you believe an individual made a poor decision due to the poor guidance of his village, what if those in his village members never had proper support either?
You're starting to get at philosophical questions like 'do we have free will' and 'nature vs nurture.'
So to your original question of "At what point do we blame the parenting?" Simultaneous always and never.
oo oo oo, can we start debating morality now? /sssss
Many credible studies say that alcohol and drug abuse are at least part genetic. Some studies show very very strong links in terms of alcoholism. Having said that- it's a choice. Look no further than the millions that have beaten alcoholism and never took a drink again. If it's a helpless disease, that wouldn't be the case. Those kids ultimately chose to get loaded and drive. That's on them. Could superior parenting helped here? maybe yes.
I'm putting this squarely on Mack Browns shoulder
I wonder where 19 year old professional football players get their entitlement complex from?
I'd argue it comes from a lack of proper parenting more than anything else.
If you are talking about parents allowing handlers in 8th grade the moment Johnny might be able to run fast or has a growth spurt- then sure. If you are talking about parents demanding money to make an official visit, yes sure. If you are talking about parents letting their kids "re-classify" all in the name of football- yes bad parenting.
I mean, talk to pretty much any officer in the military who's responsible for E1s - E3s and it's the exact same story. I don't think entitlement has as much to do with it as being young and stupid. I was visiting a friend who was a major in the Marines and he got a call in the middle of the night to deal with two drunk-ass lance corporals who got in a fist fight in the Wendy's drive-through. I don't think they were getting any NIL deals.
No NIL deals, but they did get 12 weeks of being told they were the elite of the elite and if they make it through boot camp they were the best of the best, all while being/getting in the best shape of their lives. Not excusing drunken fights but there is certainly some "cockiness" and entitlement with Marines at that age .
Honestly seems like the charges seem pretty light for "Drunken street racing leading to manslaughter"
That was honestly my first impression of the charges as well.
1 rule, no coddling. Just love
this thread
LOL Perfect GIF