The Hokies are 0-2 in the ACC for the first time since the 2005-06 season. The team has looked lifeless, lost and inept in their first two conference games against Wake Forest and Florida State. Some fans are angry, others are showing patience with the young team.
***
I stepped foot inside Cassell Coliseum just two times during my four years at Virginia Tech. The first was mandatory. All freshman were herded inside for orientation a day or two before classes started. All I remember was the speaker explaining the importance of Ut Prosim, and how those cadets in attendance would know the truest sense of the motto. The last was for a celebration.
Screaming all the way my buddy jumped off the couch like his ass was on fire, ran outside my apartment and smashed two empty beer bottles against the cold metal backside of the stairs. Virginia Tech had just beaten Miami, in Miami, back when Miami was back. We had won our first ACC Championship, and it was a big deal. Soon after, my roommate got an email or an IM (remember AIM?) notifying us that there'd be a reception to welcome back the team that night.
We were pretty drunk and my roommate hit on a 70-year-old lady in front of her husband. One of my favorite college nights.
***
I didn't go to any basketball games as a student in four years at Virginia Tech. Tech hosted sixth ranked UConn on Jan 28, 2004. That night I remember walking out of McComas after a lift, passing by Cassell and thinking to myself, "Why didn't I go to that game?" My home state Huskies ended up blowing us out, 60-96. Oh, that's why...
We sucked and we had sucked long enough to where the average student, myself included, wasn't interested in Hokie basketball. Prior to Seth, then coach Ricky Stokes went 46–69 from 1999-03.
Football was and is my passion. I understand that game, or at least I like to think I do. Aside from a two-game stint in a church rec league I never played organized basketball. I rarely played in pickup games or threw down on horse. An uncoordinated fat kid makes a much better linemen than forward. Even if I was a student at Kansas, I wouldn't have gone to every game, but I would've supported the team more than I did.
***
67-65. I split a lot of beer and high-fived a lot of Hokies that night. We were going cray in BW3s. Every time we made a basket, or got a stop I slammed my mug onto the table like a judge pounding his gable, but I wasn't asking for order. That team was confident. Jeff King put up baskets in the post and guarded Shelden Williams like he didn't give a fuck; he didn't. Gordon, Dixon, Collins, Dowdell all played their game of the year. When Zabian drained the final three the entire bar erupted and started chanting, "Let's go Hokies!" We beat Duke and suddenly Virginia Tech basketball mattered.
***
Seth Greenberg is a victim of his own success. Any comparison of his tenure to those previous at Tech will show he has been wildly successful, maybe more than any coach we've had considering the quality of opponents in the ACC. He's second all-time in victories with 156. He's won 59% of his games, and is about even in ACC play. He's recruited top classes. He's beaten three top ranked teams. He's guided the program to six of their twenty all-time postseason appearances. Most importantly, he's made Virginia Tech basketball relevant. He's gotten people, especially the students interested in the program. I've met students who look more forward to basketball than football season. That would have never of happened when I was in school.
However, missing out on the NCAA tournament the last two seasons was a flop, a regression in the positive direction the program was headed. Seth deserves the lion's share of the credit for raising the bar, but it's human nature not to be happy with what you have and to want more.
What's the standard now then?
We've invested in the program. We built a premier $21 million practice facility. We play in a marquee conference. We should get big-time recruits. We should go dancing more than once every five seasons. We should never be the league's cellar dweller, and should be able to compete with the top teams. That's what a team funded to succeed does, or at least I think so.
***
I didn't expect the team to make the tournament this season. I knew going into it we'd be extremely talented, but for the most part inexperienced. The players who were on the team last year would be stepping into bigger roles, and would have to learn to play with the new guys. It takes time to for any team to learn each other's tendencies, figure out how to play together and gel. At the same time, I didn't expect us to be the disaster that we are right now.
Either way, and whether I like it or not, I'm interested and watching. I just hope that's not good enough.
Comments
It's not a disaster yet.
Considering that 60% of the points graduated last year.
If we lose to BC though...
The real problem I have with the team right now, all other things aside, is not taking shots that are in the offense. If you take away most of our bad shots, we could be 2-0 in the ACC. But we still have real problems rebounding, boxing out, and turnovers. Those kind of things could doom this team.
I played basketball for a number of years, but had to stop due to concussions (why I wrote the concussion article last year) and grew up loving basketball. Even from my relatively short basketball career, I still knew what shots to take. You learn that from leadership from both the Coach (Greenberg is doing his job) and experienced players on the team. That is where I think this team has a problem. Zo needs to step up his leadership and show the freshman and sophomores what shots to take. Green needs to do that as well, as he is a junior and our starting PG. This season can still be a good one. We must play every game like it is our last from here on out. No one can be taken lightly.
Welp...
"We sucked and we had sucked long enough to where the average student, myself included, wasn't interested in Hokie basketball.....Football was and is my passion. I understand that game, or at least I like to think I do. Aside from a two-game stint in a church rec league I never played organized basketball. I rarely played in pickup games or threw down on horse."
This pretty much defines me right now. Got some friends that are really into Hokie Basketball, but it just isn't my jam....
same boat
Dude i was at Tech from 97 to 02 and had the same experience. I went to every home football game for 5 years plus the Nat'l Championship game, but only 2 men's B-ball games. Heck i went to more women's games! But i had to since the Corps of Cadets started going to up the attendance and such, they were pretty good then. I remember commenting that i would put money on our women's team beating the men's. BUT, i have gotten into it a bit since they started actually competing. As a Hokie i'll back any VT athletics if i can of course (Bass fishing championship!). I find myself watching the games once it's nearing the end of the season though, since everything is coming down to making the tourney or not. I NEVER watch the NBA though, so i'm ok with this since i'm into it for the Hokie factor. I really hope we can recruit and pick up the pace in the future.
97-02
Great years to be in college...I attend many basketball games..for free and sat wherever i wanted and screamed at the Band "TUBA's RULE!!" (99% drunk, 1% interested in the games)
Ah college days
Tech b-ball has come a long way
I was in in B-burg from 99-01. The normal way for everyone to get their tickets was to pick them up immediately before the game. I realized the ticket office opened each morning so I always picked up my tickets on game day first thing when the office opened in the morning. Result = front row, center court for every game I attended. Even for the "rivalry" game vs. Radford. Yes, Tech basketball has come a long way in a short amount of time. Not yet arrived, but miles from what it used to be.
Basketball
I too only went to two games between 2007-2010. I can't stand basketball at all, but I'll watch anything Virginia Tech is involved with.
'92-'97
Freshman year the football was 2-8-1...remember ties anyone? We had leads in 6 games in the 4th quarter, and won 2. The tie was NC State, and we had the lead with 32 seconds left.
As for basketball, those years were interesting to say the least. Free tickets, arriving at Tech a huge bball nut, and well, the 2-8-1 football start meant I went to a lot of games. First 4 rows was the norm. Orange tobogans were he norm. Low expectations was the norm. Until 95 when we won the NIT (the final four of the NIT at Madison Square was unforgettable.) We played in the Metro, and then the A-10 conferences. Got to see some good Louisville and Umass teams, and we were ranked the entire year in '96. Ace Custis was the man, Ryan Williams and Darren Evans combined.
Also walked into the roanoke civic center a few minutes late in the UNC game, just in time to see Montross dunk on someone to make it 15-0. (UNC won the NC that year.)
As a fan of Virginia Tech bball (as much as one could be considered a fan when entering VT in 2004), I have thought for most of this season that this year (or, possibly, next) should be Seth's last chance. I understand everything he has done for the program, and I greatly appreciate it, but at some point a program reaches a plateau, and with everything our athletics dept has done to make his job easier (namely, the $21mil facilities), he really hasn't repaid it with quality teams.
I was there for that Duke game in '05. I saw us take down #1 UNC in '07. Our program has done so much more than I ever imagined when I got to Blacksburg in 2004 and bought student season tickets. The Cassell wasn't full for 75% of those games, and, usually, it's pretty full for all ACC bouts these days. That's a huge change in culture, and Seth is to thank for it, but this season will be one-too-many mediocre years with lots of talent, and I think he should be on a very short leash.
All that said, I really hope this team comes together. Sadly, I just don't see it happening.
The way I see it
We're a southern football school in a basketball conference. Once 'Cuse and Pitt enter it will be that much more evident. As Joe pointed out, thanks to Seth's help our institution actually cares about the sport and won't let it drop to the perennial bottom dweller. Hell, the guy is even trying to bring in top talent to compete with the bigger dogs out there.
Nonetheless, as a Hokie football fan it is disconcerting to watch the premier sport blow its bowl game then languish on a flip flopping basketball team you had little interest in to begin with. This year i'm trying however. If you don't already follow @hokieguru shame on you. He had a stint at Georgetown (an actual basketball school) but loves the Hokies equally. Thanks to him I actually got fired up about the team this time around.
This is going to be long, sorry guys. Been thinking about this for awhile.
"We've invested in the program. We built a premier $21 million practice facility. We play in a marquee conference. We should get big-time recruits. We should go dancing more than once every five seasons. We should never be the league's cellar dweller, and should be able to compete with the top teams. That's what a team funded to succeed does, or at least I think so."
Best part of the piece. It's time for Seth to go... The standards have changed. I thank him for bringing the program up from the shitter, but he's hit his ceiling as a coach. He's a great recruiter and motivator, but is not a great coach. He doesn't run an offense (we give up so many offensive boards because he relies on players leaking out after shots to create any sort of offense we can get), he makes zero in-game adjustments, he's never recruited a decent center, our players continually play with a low hoops IQ. The fact that he couldn't make a tournament with the talent he's had the past few years is a joke. With the new facility and influx of interest in the program, it's time to bring in someone who can threaten to win a championship. Our ceiling as an ACC school shouldn't be to make the dance.. that's pathetic.
Thoughts on this team: I do like the guys he's brought in, and how he has been able to get them to play physical, hard-nose defense. I think Bobby Brown has talent and should start. If Raines or Barksdale can develop more than one move, they can become decent players. Finney-Smith has great basketball IQ, but doesn't play with any confidence or the aggressiveness he should. Eddie needs to touch the ball more, he's one of the only shotmakers on this team (w/ Green and Brown). Davila is garbage and it's shocking that Seth hasn't progressed him game one bit in 4 years. He has the same move and makes the same mistakes he did three seasons ago. I can't wait until Hudson leaves the program, he's a terrible shooter (quality of shots and %) and is lackluster on defense. It doesn't seem like he's emotionally invested in hoops this season. Green is obviously very talented despite his awkward shooting style. This team really misses JT Thompson. Nobody takes charge out on the floor. With so many young players, there needs to be a floor general, and Hudson and Davila, the two seniors, are far from that.
& to RiVAHokie - don't follow hokieguru if you want good analysis on hoops. If you want 400 tweets in two hours updating each basket however, go ahead.
lets not
bash the guy. He's one of the most genuine fellas on Twitter. In terms of the slew of tweets during games, not all of them are televised so he keeps the rest of us up to date. One of the great things about the platform is being able to choose who you want to follow. I suggested him because he is a Tech beat writer for scacc hoops and has done a great job at getting me excited about a sport I hardly followed along with. To each their own.
that's fine, but I wouldn't follow for anything more than score updates
I wasn't lobbying for Seth to be fired.
I was trying to look at his tenure objectively, then give my two cents and hopefully get you guys to give your input, which has been pretty insightful and brutally honest so far.
I think Seth has definitely earned this season and next at least next season to get his house in order. Based on the contract extension last year, the administration feels the same. To give him the benefit of the doubt, the injuries hurt us as much as anything last year. They were really banking on Allan Chaney to come in and be a big-time contributor for us this and last season.
And I agree, the lack of fire and energy from the team has been extremely disappointing.
Joe
I know you weren't lobbying for him to be fired -- I didn't do a great job of segwaying your quote into my thoughts, haha
Staring 1-6 or 0-7 in the face
I really hope I'm wrong but I see a big run coming in the wrong direction. I really hope they can get a win at BC this weekend because if that doesn't happen then I can only see one game that VT would have a better than 50% chance of winning over the next few weeks, BYU.
I agree with much of the sentiment being posted. Greenberg has done an unbelievable job of making VT basketball relevant but he's a basketball version of Dabo Sweeney without the top talent. As a head coach in football you can not be all that involved in the X's and O's but that is really tough in basketball with so few coaches involved. I also think Greenberg's emotional nature has been a major reason why Davila and Zo have been non-factors much of the season. That also says something about those players.
Greenberg brought in a great class and it will be a shame if he isn't around to see them succeed but I'm not sure you can stay with Greenberg if VT finishes the season with only 15 or 16 wins and a near last place finish in the ACC. Hopefully the team pulls it together but if history serves as any sort of indicator this team is going to continue to struggle offensively and doesn't appear to have the defensive tenacity that previous teams have had. That isn't surprising considering how young the team is but it also doesn't bode well for results on the court this year.
Saint Margaret Mary's
That was an epic two game basketball career. Pretty sure you took more shots in my driveway after the game then minutes you got into the game.
It sucks
because before the Wake Forest game, we were fourth in the conference :(
Are we really cellar dwellers?
I ask
Who do you reasonably think we could get as a coach to make us that much better? Coach K or anyone of his caliber? It is not as easy as you think. Seth is arguably one of the best coaches Tech has ever had. We don't have a good enough program to attract anyone better. No tradition or reputation or players in the NBA. You just can't build it overnight. You can only hope to have a couple good years in a row where you don't have significant injuries or players leaving early for whatever reason. Even then the extra attention would not guarantee long term success. It is a long way to go for this year so I am not too concerned.
There are plenty of solid up and coming coaches that could use VT as a stepping stone. Greenberg isn't anything special.
I believe we could easily attract a guy, like Greenburg, who might want to take his mid-major success to a big conference. You're completely right, the Roy Williams' of the world want nothing to do with Tech, but a guy like Chris Mooney (I know he just got an extension, just using as an example), might want to leave a competitive mid-major and try their talents in the ACC. I believe it's getting close to time we give another guy like like Seth was at LBS a chance.
LBS then South Fla
Would a top notch coach like K, Roy Williams, or Calhoun, etc... come to Blacksburg? Right now, unless we paid them a billion dollars, probably not. Although, I'd argue most of the big name coaches are pretty entrenched at their universities. There's a more even competitive balance in hoops than football, so there aren't many rungs to climb before you can get to a school that has the resources necessary for winning. Tradition aside, the money we've invested in hoops, the exposure that Seth had brought to the program, and the fact we play in the ACC makes VT a good job. Is it a job most coaches with an understanding of the history of the game would leave for Kentucky, UCLA or Kansas? Yes, of course we're not on their level. But the resources make it an appealing job nonetheless. It wasn't when Seth took it in 2004, but it is now.
I think that's why he deserves the time to turn things around. Also, he stayed in Blacksburg when he could have left for St. John's.
TL;DR We've invested too much money and play in too good a conference to think we couldn't attract an up and coming basketball coach.
joe
We don't need a top-name coach. There are many solid up and coming coaches that run offenses and have a different mindset than Seth that we could easily attract. All in all I think Greenberg will be kept til the end of next season regardless on whether or not he should. Just watch a team that recruits about the same as we do play a game. You will see players moving on offense, making cuts, slashing in the lane, making heady plays. Watching Greenberg's "offensive schemes" causes headaches for everyone watching. Maybe he could simply use a great offensive mind as an assistant? Who knows... I'm just tired of the same garbage. Green going under the screen on the last possession of the Wake game said it all.. undisciplined and poorly coached
I answer
Virginia Tech can absolutely recruit the Shaka Smarts of the world. I believe we need a young and up and coming coach to bring energy to the program and know how to execute an offense.
Yes, Seth is the best coach Tech has ever had, but unfortunately, that is not saying much. The bottomline is that the expectation for any ACC school needs to be making NCAA tournanments and succeeding - - not decent recruiting classes and the occasional upset. Speaking of the recent recruiting gains, I have generally seen it as a waste. Seth does not have the offensive mind to utilize his stud players like Finney-Smith - - let him slash and create plays with his length and athletic ability instead of just floating around on the perimeter and occasionally cleaning up in the paint.
And yes, we do have a good enough of a program to attract better coaching and player talent. We're are in the ACC. We have fantastic facilities. We have a rabid fan base waiting to rush courts and cut down nets.
You should be very concerned for this year. We don't have a system where we can consistently score, and it's extremely apparent without a player like Delaney disguising it.
this guy is
echoing what my feelings are about the situation
hahahahaha
seth is not the best the coach tech has seen. he's one of the better ones, but VT has had coaches that have gotten them into the tourney and won the n.i.t.
Hey Now
Not all of us were in school when the dorm rooms had dialup. For us it's either Ricky Stokes or Seth.
Kidding aside, I agree with HokieHigh08, we'd end up going after a coach like Shaka Smart, or another successful mid-major coach from the region.
Foster, the other one
Bill Foster was the '95 coach for the team that won the NIT.
His predecessor was Frankie Allen, who now coaches UMES about 15 minutes from me.
If not Seth, who is ahead of him??
You laugh that Seth is considered the best coach to come through Tech but who is that much better that you can laugh at the thought? Bill Foster? He did win the NIT but outside of that, he made it to the NCAA tourney once and only the one time to the NIT. I also believe he had a losing record in both the Metro and A-10 conferences. Seth is 2 games under .500 in the ACC. Charlie Moir? Yeah, he is the only coach I would consider better due to the fact he led Tech to four of the 8 NCAA appearances in school history. He did go 5 or 6 years between those as well. Plus, Moir was forced to resign over academic scandals and after, never coached again. A few may have been a better coach but I don't think they are laughable better.
based
solely on coaching ... it's not close. foster was the best I've seen at tech.
granted seth coaches in (a watered down) acc, but the talent he coaches is far, far superior. discipline, execution, x's &o's he is waaaaaaay behind though.
foster had issues playing scorers who didn't play d & recruiting, but I can't be convinced tech wouldn't be further along. like bc a couple years back, when they won 20 games every year with shit talent.
I'm honestly confused
Could you please explain how the ACC is "watered down"?
sure
since vt has been in, only 2 teams a year with some filler. the acc gets less teams in the dance now than then when the conference was 9 teams. thank md, state and gt for that.
I think the biggest problem is he just graduated a class that stayed for 4 years and was relatively healthy. Yes, JT and Zo got hurt and Chaney couldn't play with his heart condition. However, Delaney and Allen should have been plenty especially with a much improved Erick Green to make the tournament last year.
I'm optimistic that the current class could do the same. The problem is making the tournament every 3 or 4 years when your players mature shouldn't be the goal of the program. It was acceptable when he first came in and I think most of us would have been happy if it had played out that way with the last group.
The biggest problem is it seems like VT basketball is what it is and doesn't seem to be improving. It's one thing to accept that in football when you are consistently winning conference championships and playing in BCS bowls but that isn't something to strive for if you are consistently slightly better than average in your conference.
I don't think VT will be able to go out and get a name coach. You either go out and bring in an up and comer or you go with a guy that has major conference experience but got the boot like NC St got with Mark Gottfried (sp?).