Interesting read on a guy who might just be the top pick in the upcoming NFL draft:
Broken Childhood and Controlled Rage Fuel Jonathan Allen, the Unstoppable Force
Unfortunately, this is a pretty bad look for us:
Still, the legend of Jonathan Allen hadn't spread. During his sophomore year, Thompson called the coaches at Virginia Tech, where the school had sent several players, and told them he had a gem.
No thanks, the Virginia Tech coaches said. Too small.
This still bugs Allen.
Allen says he continued to bulk up, playing at 245 pounds as a junior. That year, Barlow remembered Allen getting three sacks in quick order in a game, all with different moves.
"The first one, he takes his right forearm and swings, hits the kid's left shoulder," Barlow recalled. "He swings through almost like a tennis swing. And the kid flies in the air. Two plays later, he does a helicopter move. Off the right edge, now you take your left arm and rip to the sky, then spin underneath. The kid is trying to combat John's left arm, and he totally spins and comes inside. The last sack, he just bull-rushes the guy.
"The head coach comes in the next day and says, 'Those are some pass-rush moves you taught him.' I would never teach anyone that. Kids can't do that."
They called Allen in and asked where he learned those moves. Allen said he had watched them on TV in NFL games and wanted to give them a try.
Allen remembers that game well. He also remembers that his coaches went back to Virginia Tech to pitch him again.
"They still didn't want me," Allen said. "Whatever."
Of course, there's no guarantee that he comes here even if we had pursued him aggressively, since it's hard to turn down the opportunity to play for Saban at Alabama. But damn... if that story is accurate... ouch.
Comments
Welp,
That's the best player in college football this year.
We passed on a guy that Bama thought was the real deal? I don't believe it.
Eh, I would think (read: hope) there is more to our lack of recruit of him other than "meh...too small". Regardless, he's obviously worked his ass of to get where he's at so props to him for that.
247 shows that we offered him. Maybe we showed interest after it was too late and he was frustrated that we didn't respond.
Recruited by T.Gray. Maybe nobody thought to say hi to his mom and that made him feel unwanted?/s
Well since he hasn't even said hi to his mom since 3rd grade, you're probably right on that one. God Damn Torrian Gray
T. Gray has a bad rep with the way he recruits. I have #sauces from the inside.
T. Gray also offered Clay Dean...Could we be in for a surprise with his development?
So a team and coaches whose often heard criticism is their D-lineman are too small passed on a guy big enough for Bama?
For anyone who has ever been directly involved in the recruiting process, coaches are just like the rest of us: they form opinions early, attach themselves to those opinions, and then are reluctant to release themselves from those opinions (thus they have strong opinions by four times in one sentence too). Shane Beamer's evaluation of Sam Rogers could be an example of that. I suspect that this kid didn't need an affirmation of anything from Virginia Tech coaches once Bama came calling.
The only thing I find odd is that Foster/Wiles would say an End was too small. That's the entire knock on him.
Edit: I also don't believe he has any reason to lie. Just seems like an odd story all around.
Maybe the coach who supposedly told him this and made the phone calls didn't rely the info correctly.
Our Steph Curry story of football
Except his dad wasn't Michael Vick and Steph didn't go on to play for Kentucky
"No, saving that spot for Nnadi, Sweat, and Hand. Call back later"
- VT, probably
"Ouch"
-My feelings
No, but there's a fucking higher chance. A REALLY fucking higher chance considering he approached us TWICE. This almost like what happened with the dude AND Clemson ALL OVER again. Fuck dammit!Upon perusing further down, I have decided to concur with the others about legitimacy of the article.
Please return to your regularly scheduled TKP.
I'm gonna start posting this gif everytime I say 'fuck dammit'.
FTFY
Nope, I'm still gonna say it. Sorry, not sorry.
we expect nothing less
Emotions...they'll get after ya
(Nodding head in approval GIF)
[Meta]
This is an excellent thread in terms of title, providing a link, extracting a relevant excerpt, and driving a discussion.
[/Meta]
And that's how you get the Joe Lanza Stamp of Approval
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry Joe, I just couldn't resist
RIP kennyhokie
Something tells me there is a little more to it, if we really weren't interested
Agree. No doubt this is a single sentence recap. Given our record, I have no doubt our coaches recruit who the want for a reason and can't get everyone they want. Non issue but if this was fuel for the kid to succeed so be it. Congrats on a great career at Bama and good luck at the next level. VT will be fine too.
Certainly a possibility, but sometimes you just miss. Even a staff that has had success finding gems in some lower ranked guys. Talent evaluation is very subjective and there is a legitimate chance we just underestimated his ability, upside, and fit in our defense.
We called a defensive lineman too small? I'm genuinely shocked.
I thought the same thing. Have our defensive coaches ever said something like this publicly or even operated in this way (look at how small our DL has been over the years). We have said however that a guy isn't "twitchy" enough.
We offered him before junior year. Its not like we ignored him.
But this is why you see guys like Hunter get offers in 8th grade. Can't let anyone get an edge on you.
so you're saying we offered him before his junior year, but a Bleacher Report article says we still showed no interest AFTER his junior year. Well that just can't be right because it would mean that B/R has its facts wrong/s
if what you're saying is accurate then something doesn't add up
You're saying we offered him before his junior year and he's saying that after that junior year game he had his coaches went back to VT to pitch him again and VT still didn't want him. Why would VT "not want" somebody they had offered?
Seems odd that he's hammering on VT now....what's the motive?
go ahead and refill your sippy cup because you're gonna have to DRINK!
I'll gladly drink, sippy cup or not.
But I spent more time on my post which is why you beat me, marginally
Soft offers happen all the time. I don't think this would happen with a guy who's recruitment is blowing up like his was, but its more complex than offer/no offer. There are a number of 2017 guys that have a offer listed from us that we never really pursued
Just curious, but of those guys to whom you refer, how many have offers from the previous regime? Is this a hangover type deal or Fuente and company just hoping guys forget that they hold VT offers as more tempting recruits show interest?
Beamer and Co wasn't known for soft offers unless they involved academics.
Can't put my finger on it, but it's not adding up.
I know we have a completely new staff here so it's not really that relevant, but I'm damn tired of these stories that make the old regime look like complete fools in the recruiting game. Change was definitely welcome.
The entire story is a giant load of crap. Allen (who is a terrific player that I wanted badly) was born in Alabama and that was his dream school. He informed Foster and Wiles in no uncertain terms that he would not be coming to Virginia Tech, and they stopped recruiting him (even though they would have honored the scholarship offer.) The kid has a reputation for being a primadonna and now he has an audience, so anything he can say to elevate the whole "I wasn't meant to be much but I showed them" narrative that teens get in their head will come out. And the (key word) FORMER assistants see a potential meal ticket who is about to make millions of NFL dollars, and they will create the story that supports the narrative.
Even if you knew NOTHING about his recruitment, the story about him "being cut" should be your first red flag. Anyone familiar with Virginia high school football understands that football doesn't involve cuts. Now, he may have been assigned to play JV- that isn't "cutting someone"- that means they are playing JV if the player is a freshman or sophomore. If the kid was a junior- he'd be on the team at Stone Bridge or any public high school provided he makes grades, shows up for practice etc.
The whole story stinks like a whorehouse at low tide.
French at his computer screen.
Jeff Goldblum's reaction to this article mirrors mine.
That sounds pretty bad...
My new mantra is "No comment until French comments".
Always bringing the fire.
The article itself is what it is- reporters looking for sub-stories during a busy week, as the playoff is the new Super Bowl. The kid and the coaches motives are pretty apparent when you look at it within the context of their future opportunities, plus most (including myself) never miss an opportunity to self-aggrandize.
What chaps my ass is how quickly people who have been and continue to want Charley Wiles gone gravitate to any piece of information which can be twisted to support wanting them gone. I am not the biggest fan of Wiles (he has a sarcastic, tell it like it is style, and sometimes his openness backs the rest of the staff into a corner. The primary example was the deal with Vinny Mihota. Two days into his first days of his first spring action, Wiles did an interview and said plainly that Mihota needed to move to tackle because he wasn't quick enough to play end. Then, when depth became an issue, they needed Mihota to play end. It made Wiles look bad, and if I was Mihota, it would piss me off that with two days a coach had already made up his mind that I couldn't play the position I was recruited to play.
That being said, Wiles has gotten more out of mid-level recruits than just about any defensive line coach in the country. He doesn't get top end recruits not because he is a bad recruiter, but because the Hokies system counter intuitive and not NFL friendly. Top end talents have dominated at every level. They are often not coach, and are instead asked to use their superior ability to win a one on one battle and then go get the football. The Hokies defensive line is asked to read the offensive line keys and then still have the quickness to fill a gap and the strength/leverage to fit in it, EVEN IF THE BALL IS GOING ELSEWHERE. It is counter-intuitive and, while more and more NFL teams play one gap schemes, the slanting and fitting is not something that emulates Foster's way of achieving gap superiority. That is reality, and as result defensive linemen that are terrific at Virginia Tech in Foster's system don't always become great fits in the NFL. And other coaches recruit against us, and the kids and their "advisers" often look at that track record as the first evaluation point.
Let's just say that Wiles suddenly starts nailing all these top five star recruits- if they play undisciplined and go chase the ball down outside of the framework of the scheme, the results will be worse, not better (see the 2003 defense.) You have to get the kids with the ability, the discipline the execute the scheme, and then the athleticism to win afterwards. Can this staff do a better job of getting those kids defensively? Of course. Are they terrible recruiters because some of the kids with higher measurables go somewhere else? No.
Oh, and one last note. Bud Foster is the NOVA recruiter, not Wiles. So feel free if you buy this BS to respond below this saying A) You believe that Bud Foster would say this to a recruit and B) say you want him fired. Because, if this is your justification, Foster is the guy responsible.
Man, this has pissed me off. And nobody (and Joe/other VT fans who knew me when Allen was a recruit can verify) wanted him at VT more than me.
and Bleacher Report is straight...
ATTN HOAT: NSFW!!!!!
Too late. I've already been corrupted.
BR is straight horse pussy? IDGI
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Off topic question - I understand that Bud's one gap scheme is unusual, and I've heard it likened to the triple option in terms of how it requires special prep. Is there anyone else in CFB who uses a similar scheme? Is there any reason why Foster's scheme couldn't be effective in the NFL? Just curious.
There are teams that use similar concepts (including the Seahawks) but nobody slants and alternates edge force and spill players and alley players like Bud. In Bud's defense, a rover has to be an outside linebacker, a corner, and a centerfield safety, sometimes in the space of three plays.
The triple option comparison is appropriate. I also thought that the offense spending the first two weeks of fall camp working against Bud's defense put the offense at a disadvantage because it was not similar to the defenses they faced early in the season. When you go back and watch VT offensively going all the way back to the early 90s, the offense always seemed to struggle early in the year, especially run blocking. I think blocking Bud's movement made the OL hesitant, and then they had to go against a scout D filled with tweener guys who were not skilled in a way to emulate an Alabama, USC etc early in the season.
I agree with everything you said there French, however, there are some times where certain teams are allowed to cut players. I wen to another Loudoun County high school during the same time as Allen and I can tell you first hand that my high school (and others like Stone Bridge) were allowed to cut players (with special permission I believe from VHSL) due to overcrowding and not having enough resources for everyone who tried out
Regarding the comments on cuts, I've come to expect all journalists to use a fair amount of literary license to suit their purposes, and have particularly low expectations when it comes to BR. But I don't really see how this benefits anyone. Allen is a top-3 pick who is going to get paid regardless, it's not like he's going to improve his draft stock by making up some story about how he got passed over as a sophomore in HS. At worst, this feels like one of those super bowl human interest stories designed to fill airtime. Overly dramatic and embellished, maybe, only half the story, definitely, but outright fabricated? I don't buy it.
Either way, it sucks that the guy who might be the best player in this year's draft felt the need to throw us under the bus several years after the fact, whether or not BR got the details right. If there's even a small degree of truth to it, it provides insight into some of our recruiting struggles. And whether you or anyone else here has #sauces with direct knowledge of how it all played out (I don't), prospective recruits are likely to pay a lot more attention to what Jonathan Allen has to say than what any of our current or former coaches say in response.
Hopefully recruiting improves as much as the product on the field did this past year, in which case we'll have a lot more successes than failures to talk about going forward.
I was on vacation during thanksgiving 2010 or 2011 at Westgate in Gatlinburg, Tennessee. We were swimming in the pool and were throwing a football and this huge dude and his smaller friend come up and ask to join us. We oblige. After some small talk and pool football, we find out that one of the kids is being recruited by some big SEC schools and was around for his visit to UT. He said his friend was being recruited Saban, but he himself wasn't. He said his buddy met Saban, Saban grabbed his arm and started scoping him out and said "Kid, you're build right, but we don't recruit anyone under 6'3"..." or something like that. Can't remember exactly. But that tells me Saban is going after undersized guys. Now I guess everyone has a different definition of undersized, but this just tells me the story is fishy.
See there's your problem right there.
Believing (let alone READING) a B/R article. When did the world decide they were credible?
they make a pretty convincing slide show...?
I remember Jon Allen's recruitment well. VT wanted him as bad as anyone but he was pretty adamant early on that he wasn't interested in any way. Everyone knew he was headed to Bama LONG before he committed there .. really LONG. This article is bullshit
This story is 100% true. I've talked with his old coach on a few occasions and as the story goes, at the time he was too small. Tech tells him this and he feels slighted the rest of the recruiting process. Allen hits a growth spurt and all of a sudden we're interested but by that point we've already screwed the pooch.
I dunno man, I trust French on this one.
Is it possible that at some point in his freshman or sophomore season we weren't interested because of his size (and perhaps age) and were honest with him about that fact? Perhaps. But we offered before his junior season, ya know, the season where he demonstrated D-1 potential size and D-1 potential ability. So we were ahead of the bandwagon for sure.
And it's not like Alabama offered him as a H.S. freshman either. Don't think he had an offer from them until part way through his senior season, but I didn't pay much attention to him once he made it clear VT was not on his radar.
He had an offer from VT when he made his choice to go to Alabama. Obviously the coaching staff thought he could be a good player for VT. Again, I am not losing sleep over this. Kid wanting to self-agrandize and a jerk-off writer looking for any kind of angle that gives them some page views. Sadly based on the last week, that is permeating our neck of the woods too.
My advice, worry about the players who sign with Virginia Tech. Hope they beat the ones they don't on the field.
You don't have to trust me. I'm just telling you the source was literally Mike Skinner who has been the kid's defensive coordinator during high school. I'm not losing sleep over this either but the fact is, John felt slighted during the entire recruiting process after Tech initially showed no interest in him.
I guess what French is saying and what you / Coach Skinner are saying aren't 100% mutually exclusive events.
Ultimately though, he didn't pass on VT because of this perceived slight, and he and his coach are just trying to spin this story as the "look at how under appreciated talent this kid's talents were, now look at him!" yeah so under appreciated that as he developed into a D-1 prospect in H.S. he was 5-star rated recruit... Bottom line is that if he got an Alabama offer he was going there, period, no matter how much VT or any other school had recruited him. Maybe our coaches recognized that early, along with his potential to actually get an Alabama offer, and didn't bother with as much diplomacy as they might employ with a prospect that would actually be recruitable.
We assume that to be true. Would he have gone to Alabama regardless? Probably. The issue with his recruitment is that he didn't even consider Tech towards the end of his high school career because of how we had started with him.
He didn't even consider VT towards the beginning of his HS career either...
Whatever, GET THE FUCK OFF MY LAWN!
So he was 245 lb as a JR in high school. When was he too small? We probably have DE's on our roster now that dont weigh that much. He would have had to have grown a lot taller in that short of a time in high school to gain any significant weight between 10th and 11th grade and even 9th and 11th grade. Its not like as a senior we didnt want him. It was more than his size that was the issue, we have had an All American DE at 5'10 or 11 and not much over 215 or so. There could be many reasons not to offer a HS freshman or sophomore, in accordance with his size. Who knows, good for him he used it as motivation. He wasnt coming here anyway.
some timeline elements: We offered him prior to his junior season. He committed to Alabama after his junior season.
Recruitment stories of our former staff giving current VT a bad look?
Well, our genius NIT level hoops coach thought the MVP of the NBA was too small to play at Virginia effing Tech- in HOOPS!! - not a rich history there, in case you didn't notice... and we were picky with Steph freaking Curry- his Dad was the best player we ever had as well... so yeah, I could believe that Bud- who- newsflash- is NOT a good recruiter, IMO - telling Allen he was "too small"- I could buy that. And yes, while this "too small" NFL beast is blowing up people in the SEC, we have played Dadi Nicholas (220 pounds soaking wet) at DE and played House Gaines there this year.. maddening, yes.
O God not this again.
do you even read, bro?
??? The buck stops with Bud... he sets the defensive recruiting board when its all said and done. Was he the specific coach that told him he was too small? maybe/maybe not? Either way, buck stops with him... one of the greatest defensive coordinators ever to put on a whistle... also the position coach that no elite linebackers will sign with out of high school the past 10 years.
Your own statement makes no logical sense, Bud and Wiles have recruited and played guys smaller than Allen was, so why would they say he is undersized and then offer him?????
Look - I have no proof what was said. Maybe Allen is lying his face off? who knows.. my point was that I "could" believe it- I really could. That is all I'm saying. When guys like Josh Sweat, Clelin Ferrell, and DeShawn Hand openly state they are VT fans, love Bud Foster, grew up VT fans, and we whiff on all of them- that tells me our "recruiting" process was whack.. so I would not be surprised if we did not do a good job recruiting this kid. That's all I'm saying.
Every one of those guys was offered by a bigger, better performing, better budgeted team. You act like they went to Duke or MD or Rutgers.
10 years ago we laughed at Clemson.. we whipped them every time, we called it "Clemsoning", etc.. now the players they recruit- virginia kids like Ferrell are "out of reach" for us? Nonsense. And Duke signed more top 10 virginia (not a typo) kids than we did last year. Maryland's class for 2017 is crushing ours, BTW, so yeah
Maryland class has 29 commits and is pretty much filled up. We have 19 and only 9 spots lower in the Composite (and actually six spots higher in 247s), so once our class fills up we will be equal or more than likely higher...
FWIW, Proctor was once considered a Maryland lean, but once Bud and Fuente started recruiting him that changed quickly.
Duke signing VA kids isn't the same as these blue chip recruits going to top schools. You do know from most parts of central and south east Virginia Duke is a closer school right? That them and their parent say can get there easier than to Blacksburg?
News... VT basketball signs more top 10 North Carolina players than UNC.. nope, nothing to see here, Meh...
Umm, not sure if you are taking a shot at basketball recruiting here, but Buzz is recruiting to heights never seen at VT before.
And yet, despite this apparent deficiency in recruiting and "no elite linebackers" in those ten years, Bud's defense has been in the top-20 in 8 of those 10 years.
Let me check..... nope... chart does not dispute that we have not signed an elite LB prospect out of HS the past 10 years... thanks
My point is: so what? Sure, more talent in any number of positions would be great, but we seem to be doing pretty well without "elite" (define that, please) talent.
So what? Want to beat Clemson one day? Hold them under 42 points and 600 yards of offense. Want to not get punked by Dino Babers? Want to really compete for a national title again? We need to sign guys like Clelin Ferrell, Josh Sweat, DeShawn Hand... those guys are elite. Those guys are NFL players, those guys are better than the guys we have right now. Fuente did an amazing job winning the coastal this season- I give him and Bud all the credit in the world. But winning on Clemson's or FSU's level is a different story. If we want to do that, and beat Tennesee in bristol, start winning some of these marquee games again, we need more depth and NFL prospects on the defensive front 7... that is the difference between us and Clemson/Bama/OSU right now
No the difference is years of millions of dollars more poured into their programs than Tech has.
Different argument, but VT was in the top 2/3 for all of those prospects... we were at the table..and that is not a millions of dollars gap- its a closing in recruiting gap- and probably not something significant- we can do better in that area, and it wont take millions of dollars. Let's hope Coach Fu fixes it.
Then why does every program that makes the playoffs or national championship game have budgets larger than Tech's? If there is no correlation between budget and success winning and recurring why do the best at it have the largest budgets?
We played Clemson this year in the ACC Championship game. Do you want to recruit a little better and beat them next time? Or do you want to get to the game, and say welp- Clemson's budget is bigger, so we throw in the towel? We are not that far away...we are not millions of budget dollars away from Clemson. We just need to sign a couple of top 10 as opposed to top 25 classes and we are right there. It has nothing to do with this huge budget gap you are talking about.
Yes because that's exactly what I said.
VT isn't going to be signing any top 10 classes. If we could sign top 25 yearly and have some occasionally in the top 15-20 range that's our ceiling IMO for the next few years unless we somehow luck into the playoffs. Even with having the top classes it's more about having the right class composition, which has been a big problem lately IMO.
Also need a better hit rate on our higher end prospects. Our classes, like many others, have been inflated with kids that never made it or transferred/bust early.
Your argument keeps changing. Ferrell, Sweat, and Hand all play D-line. What happened to the lack of elite linebackers?
We lost to Clemson because we kept giving them the damn ball. The offense punted or turned the ball over on 5 straight possessions spanning 2Q - 3Q. Dug ourselves too big a hole, which you can't do to a team that's as good as Clemson. When the other team has the ball most of the time, they're going to move it and score.
We lost to Syracuse because everything failed. The game was tied into the 4Q before the offense again turned it over and we sputtered. Can't ask Bud to do everything.
What we've been fighting (for years!) is negative recruiting against us, much of it driven by Beamer's age. That pervaded the program through the last 5 years, at least. Meanwhile, Bud did Bud things and kept us competitive. That's a damn feat. Would I have liked to get some 5* talent? Sure, we all would. Do I think it can happen? Yep, but it's going to take time and a lot of things need to come together in terms of recruiting effort (by everyone on staff and in supporting roles), by donors to fund all our activities, and for the players on the field to consistently win. This isn't all on Foster. It isn't all about signing elite LB talent (again, define that for me and show me its causative role in anything that VT has failed to do). It's about a lot of things that have sputtered at VT for years but we're now on a much better track.
My argument is not changing at all. Both Ferrell and Sweat were recruited as linebackers out of HS. Sweat plays a lot of stand up now anyway, Ferrell put on more weight, thus plays DE. Both guys loved VT, until signing day- the recruiting process there is broken- anybody can see that. When Motu (much maligned anyway) - and was a 2/3 star recruit- went down with an injury, a walk on - Sean Huselkamp, who weighs 215 pounds replaced him. We are paper thin at inside linebacker even today- unless 3 star guys like Beckett and Belmar are ready to step in as RS Fresh/Sophomore's - which is my point. Our competition at the top of the ACC has scholarship backup middle linebackers ready to play. For a program at VT's level prior to the slide in 2012-2013 to have a roster of linebackers that we had was inexcusable- period. Much like the OL depth in the Newsome years- a disgrace for a program of VT's stature. I think Fuente can fix this, but it needs to start soon.
that's simply not true, as you can see in this link
i agree, recruiting in general needs to improve to compete, not that bud foster is some incompetent stooge when it comes to recruiting
You're right that we've had trouble recruiting linebackers, particularly inside linebackers. That said, losing guys like Hand, Sweat, and Ferrell is a bit silly to blame on someone's talent as a recruiter. There aren't magic words that make a kid go to your school no matter what. Chances are, those kids wanted to play for national championships and marquee games, that wasn't a realistic thing we could offer them while going 7-6 every year. So they end up at FSU, Alabama, Clemson, it sucks, and it's frustrating that kids who grew up fans end up going out of state, but we couldn't offer what they wanted. Maybe we would have had a better shot with those guys when were Daddy in the ACC, but it's impossible to know for sure.
Agree with you 100%, but if we want to beat FSU and Clemson, we need to improve recruiting, by hook or crook or whatever, we need to improve. Dabo didn't have anything better to sell when he started reeling in Sammy Watkins, Nuke Hopkins and a bunch of NFL sized DL... they had not won the ACC in 30 years when he started signing top 10 classes. We need to do what they are doing.
Overall, I agree that we need better recruiting to consistently beat those teams. We were close to beating Clemson this year, but I have a feeling we lose that game about 7-8 out of 10 times, which recruiting will help fix. That said, being from upstate SC and being the same age/playing those guys, I can weigh in on some of their early recruiting success because it wasn't quite as dominant as it may seem.
Not all of those NFL sized DL were that way when recruited. Vic Beasley, was recruited as a "jumbo" athlete and was more in the mold of one our smaller, faster DE's. He started out by being moved to 4 or 5 different positions on offense and defense before settling as a Clemson-specific "bandit" DE. Kevin Dodd, 2nd round pick last year was a 2-3 star defensive tackle prospect, who turned out to be a developmental diamond in the rough. Shaq Lawson, a totally NFL sized DE, was undersized coming out Daniel high school, which is a 5 minute drive from downtown Clemson.
Which leads me to my next point, everyone from Daniel goes to Clemson, they are soooo close to Clemson and all the coaches kids go there and get to know the Clemson coaching staff very well. Nuk Hopkins, was a year older than me and was primarily recruited as a db, he switched to receiver and not to my shock (we played against him my whole life), but to the shock of many emerged as an elite receiver. Additionally, at this same time, my high school (20 minutes from Clemson) had Martavis Bryant who wanted to go local after Georgia cooled on him or something (his grades were quite questionable), as he was pretty high on them originally, also ended up at Clemson. Ben Boulware, a few years younger than me also from same high school, chose Clemson for the opportunity to be the hometown hero and stick around his family, his older brother was playing baseball at Clemson too.
So some of these guys really fell into Clemson's lap.
That said, they absolutely crushed the recruiting of Stephone Anthony and Sammy Watkins, who were huge gets and great examples of Clemson doing a good job recruiting.
Thank you very much - great insight and very interesting. I remember VT going very hard after Stephone Anthony- he would have really helped our defense. And Watkins is a once a decade type player in college- him being very soft an ineffective in the NFL, notwithstanding!
Bud wanted Anthony bad, and has admitted as such over the years. Yes Watkins was really something special, it's a shame he's had trouble staying healthy in the NFL, still manages to be fairly productive when he is healthy.
Whenever Bud mentions Stephone Anthony (and he does, frequently) he physically recoils. That hurt. He has to compose himself and mention that not getting Anthony let them get Luther Maddy... but he wanted Anthony badly.
Sweat and Ferrell at linebacker?
And you are too dense to realize that a top rated linebacker recruit is a recruit that is either a traditional 4-3 middle linebacker, which is not a good fit for what the mike position calls for, or it is an edge 3-4 outside linebacker with burst, which doesn't fit the backer spot (unless Bud went to the Bear full time), hence why those recruits (could, top 100 player and HIGH SCHOOL OUTSIDE LINEBACKER NATHAN PROCTOR) commit and play defensive end to Tech.
Bruce Taylor is a classic example. He was a heavily sought-after top recruit, and he struggled mightily in the adjustment to the mike spot, so much so that after struggling and gaining weight he got moved to defensive end for a short time.
For the rest of you... sorry. I can put it on a tee. But I can't help some of them hit the fairway.
I'm genuinely curious on what your thoughts on Bruce Taylor are. I thought he had 2.5 very productive years at Mike, but I could be wrong and his deficiencies were masked by other players playing well.
he was terrific at mike pre-linsfrac. When he came back, the backer position was a disaster because of the injury to Edwards and the exodus of Johnson and Gibson. They moved him there, and he struggled (again, post-linsfrac injury) in space. When Bud started playing more 46 with Taylor out on the edge instead of in a base alignment, he found a comfort zone.
I still have nightmares of Taylor covering that Pitt RB on a wheel route. Gewwwww.
I do remember the drop-off coming back from the lisfranc injury, that was a damn shame, very difficult injury to ever come back from fully.
This is a very long winded justification for a depth chart of Motu, Heulskamp and ????? at inside linebacker for an alleged Top 25 program. Well done! No, I am not dense, I understand the difference between a 3-4 and 4-3 defense.
Sigh.... isn't alleged. Finished in the top 25. Motu and Tremaine Edmunds are your starting inside linebackers. Yes, the backer position is an inside linebacker. Yes, their depth is not ideal (I still don't fully understand the deal with Carson Lydon, who I think could have been excellent) nor has it been in some time.
And the Hokies have never. I repeat NEVER run a 4-3 or a 3-4 as long as Foster has been the defensive coordinator. It is a 4-4 one gap defense that has transitioned into a 4-2-5 with identical gap fit principles. Just like the defensive line position, the mike spot in Bud's defense is a completely different animal than a traditional 4-3 or 3-4 scheme. Hence, teams recruiting against Bud sell that even Bud's best (George Del Ricco, Jamal Smith, Vince Hall) mikes didn't have NFL careers, because their skill set doesn't fit the NFL scheme.
So, which would you prefer? Scrap the defensive scheme that has been the centerpiece for the Hokies identity for almost 25 years? Scrap the scheme that has made them competitive year after year with bad offenses? Because, when you do that, now you are trying to beat "the big boys" that the Hokies have been beating at their own game, instead of forging their own road. When schools that don't have the recruiting base and the cash to play that game try to play that game, they lose. And, and nobody wants to hear this, Virginia Tech does not have the recruiting base and the cash to play that game. Look at the Hokie club numbers. Look at the donations. It isn't a winning battle. Bud's scheme makes players that would be average in those 4-3 and 3-4 looks and uses them in a way to maximize their effectiveness (as my film review will show as the small, slow Hokie defense completely shut down the monster Arkansas running game and their 1300 yard rusher.)
Sigh...
Your film reviews and breakdowns/insights/commentary are the BEST things on the internet regarding Hokie Football- I LOVE them, and I am being serious. I respect your opinion more than anyone on this forum when it comes to X and O's. No, Foster should not stop doing what he is doing, I would never suggest such a thing- the results speak for themselves. The bottom line is that if VT is serious about competing with FSU, Clemson, even Louisville, in my opinion the talent level and depth on the interior of the defense needs to improve. Period. I love Tremaine Edmunds, love him- monster. Who is his backup? Motu has been coached into being serviceable- makes a lot of tackles in this scheme- and I know you have broken down his play many times to mixed results. Who is his backup against WVU? Beckett? This is my point. Can Settle play 50 plays a game? If not is Soczbiak going to play at that level?- I doubt it. Scheme or no scheme, big budget or no big budget, defensive recruiting outside of DB MUST improve if VT wants to remain in the top 25 and beat Clemson or FSU one day. I think you would agree.
I agree that Bud needs to have better depth and talent to win national championships, yes. Have the defensive recruiting classes been up to par over the last 7 years? No.
I just want to repeat this until folks acknowledge it- the root cause for those classes being down isn't an inability to recognize talent. There have been talented guys who fit the scheme that ultimately chose elsewhere to go for reasons beyond anything Bud Foster and Charley Wiles had control over. Bud wanted Stephone Anthony over Curtis Grant, who the recruiting services said was the best linebacker in the country. Foster and Wiles desperately wanted Derrick Nnadi over Andrew Brown, and Nnadi has turned out to be the much more productive college player. It isn't that they don't know what they were doing. There were other factors at work.
And even when they hit home runs, sometimes they smash their own car window in the parking lot. Safety depth is my biggest worry on defense. Terrell Edmunds, who just had an amazing season at rover, or Mook Reynolds, who was a dynamic disruptive force that drove the momentum flip in the bowl, may have to move to free safety, once again robbing Peter to pay Paul. Are the Hokies in that situation because of recruiting failures? No- they had two of the highest rated safety recruits in recent memory in Holland Fisher and CJ Reavis. Fisher was a guy everyone (including Nick Saban) thought would be a star, and ultimately he was too stiff to play safety and couldn't succeed on or off the field. CJ Reavis I still think would have been a star, but there was the whole debacle around him. Safety should have been a position of strength for years, and now they have to throw Alleyne and Floyd into the fire.
Agree- Chuck Clark was an underrated, steady part of this years defense. I loved Reavis- mainly because he was die-hard Hokie and could play. We really miss him, and he would be a monster by next season if he was under Bud/Gray/Mitchell all this time. Alleyne was a pretty well regarded recruit, let's hope he blossoms
The irony is that VT is not that far off... Frustrating for VT fans, but we've played really good/elite USC, Auburn, Alabama, now Clemson teams and hung in/could've won.
So what are we missing?
I think you give Bud/Fu the 4*/5* players that VT swings and misses on, and we're in the playoff conversation. It's not that they don't want them, we don't sign them like the big boys.
So, (agreeing with you that depth/talent is an issue) my question is what do you suggest Bud/Fu do to fix it? (Safe to assume they want to...)
IMHO, it's not in their control. It's more of a Whit issue, but he can't even control it....
Let me rephrase the question....Why did/does Alabama and now Clemson get those players?
Not looking at under-the-table reason, but at the low hanging fruit:
ALA-freakin-BAMA! multiple Natty's, Saban, fanbase enthusiasm to the point of a state religious cult, media exposure, NFL roster history.....Is it an accident that Whit has started the new Hokie Club campaign based in part on Clemson's IPTAY success?
Sometimes we may have a myopic view, and I love VT, but we simply don't have the history and embarassingly have sub-par monetary fan support to consider to be where we want to be.
Coaching, facilities, conference, talent pool we got.
IMHO, until we get the fan base donating mad $$ and change some VT perceptions, we are what we are.
(And that's exactly what Whit is working on.......)
What problem do you have with Gaines playing DE? The guy is 6'3" 248lb aka standard size college DE and is explosive off the edge. He's 30lb heavier than Nicolas was at VT.
No problem at all, I love House- have met him and his Dad- super nice people. 1. He is about the size Allen was- which is the whole point of this thread, and 2. In-person, he is not huge- he is rather lean in fact- not saying that is bad, but Ekanem and Tapp for example were much "bigger/thicker" in person.
Maybe as a SOPHOMORE in high school he was TOO SMALL. Nothing says how big he was at that point. Coaches can't predict how a player will grow as he goes through school.
He was 180 as a SOPHOMORE! Offered as a 205lb JUNIOR!
Can we not give this post any more legs (no pun intended)? Let it die. It's all water under the bridge.
If we want to win a championship and as long as Bud is here it's going to come down to our offense. I think we need to recruit better on the o line.