Not sure how I missed this article in the Washington Post until just now, but it touches on the fact that Babcock's first order of business probably will be with the basketball programs rather than football. The parts of the article I found most compelling regards the attendance figures.
Through 13 home games this season, the Hokies average attendance is 4,559, a 45.6 percent decline from Greenbergs last season, when Virginia Tech finished in a tie for last place in the ACC standings.
According to figures provided by the Hokies athletic department, season ticket sales have dropped from a high of 5,322 in 2007-08 to 3,414 this season. Only 379 students bothered to buy season tickets this year, down from its peak level of 2,134 in 2007-08.
While none of the other information in the article is really new, it does seem to show their is a growing media attention to the blight that is currently VT basketball. I am however surprised at how significant the drop off has been for attendance both in the general public and the student body.
Comments
I find it very interesting that people in and around the program are surprised that attendance has bottomed out after the firing of a popular head coach that was always in the media with a guy who had never been the head of a program at any level throughout his coaching career. They aren't good offensively, they are horrid defensively, and there is little hope of future success while watching the team play on the court.
As much good as Weaver did with the Virginia Tech athletic department, I am probably going to remember the most about him the absolute disaster that came about the bungling of the Greenberg firing. From the timing to the ridiculously unprofessional nature of the press conference, it just left a bad taste in the mouths of the entire fanbase, and then the 'down the hall' hiring that became a staple of his late career hiring trends just capped it off.
I recall the Stokes days when we would lose to the likes of EA Sports in exhibition games in Cassell to start the year and remember telling myself that there is absolutely no reason a major school should ever be playing at a level that horrid. I find it absolutely incomprehensible that we're right back to that level only 10 years later, ESPECIALLY knowing we're now playing in the ACC.
Babcock has a very important hire coming in the near future for him in regards to basketball. This program desperately needs a reset button. As we saw with Greenberg, with the right hire a basketball program can turn around quickly. At the very least, the Athletic Department needs to show us that they at the very least are TRYING to make things better instead of treating the program as a distraction from the football season.
Did the Johnson hiring not coincide with the real possibility that Green was going to transfer?
And if hiring Johnson had the pure goal of keeping Green, it was a very, very shortsighted terrible decision by the Athletic Department for the future of the program.
We were bad with Green last year and we are even worse this year. Having Green did close to nothing in regards to recruiting for the future. If that was the goal (and I truly hope it wasn't), it was a bad one, and shows just how out of touch Weaver was with basketball in general.
Seth's scorched earth policy had run its course. He had to go. We were in a bad position, but we made that worse by hiring cheap and providing no support whatsoever to the basketball program.
It's a dumpster fire now, just let Babcock clean house and hit the reset button. Step 1: Reenergize the fanbase. JJ isn't going to do that. Cut bait.
I agree, Seth needed to go.
But he needed to go in March, right after the last game. Not in late April, a month and a half after our last game, while he was on the recruiting trail, and only finding out about the firing through media outlets while he was 1-on-1 with a recruit. The timing and unprofessional nature was bad in itself, but the issue was only compounded with the down the hall bargain basement hiring of first time head coach JJ. Just an ugly mess all around that showed just how clueless our Athletic Department is in regards to the sport of basketball.
Popular?
He hadn't been popular for a couple seasons.
I agree that he should have been fired, but don't say he wasn't a popular coach. He was only 2 seasons removed from one of the biggest NCAA tournament snubs in history. He was recruiting at a level that Virginia Tech basketball has never and should never be able to recruit at. Yes, he was popular as a coach. But his problem was that he wasn't popular as a person within the athletic department.
He also wasn't popular with players once they actually were on the roster, and wasn't popular with his assistants.
...which is evident in the number of transfers the program experienced. It was a turnstile.
His last season, he wasn't popular with fans. I'll stand by that til I die.
Those unseen levels of recruiting amounted to a guy he couldn't use properly and left, a guy who was trying to beg, borrow and steal his way out of his loi to go to a big boy school and 3 guys he either couldn't coach up or were overrated that he couldn't properly evaluate.
Greenberg was pretty polarizing around campus up until he was fired. I know I was somewhat surprised that he wasn't fired at the conclusion of the season, but I was glad he was given another chance, and most of my friends felt the same way, but I did know people that were very glad he was gone.
I know my thoughts were, even though we lost a bunch of games that last year, the vast majority of them were close. We were always at least competitive under Greenberg, which was a HUGE improvement over the Stokes era, which I remember all too well.
When he finally was fired, it was a surprise, because I knew that we wouldn't be able to find anyone worth their salt as an ACC coach in mid-April. Yes, Greenberg probably should have been fired, especially in light of all the allegations made against his ability to play well with others. But I felt that by the time Weaver made the decision, it was the wrong one, as it would probably put our program back at least a couple years, as opposed to the one year it would take letting him stick around for another season. And look where we are now.
3 parts to this:
I'm not trying to argue that Seth should have been given another year. In fact, I was surprised as the days passed after the end of the season that we didn't hear about him being canned.
I guess my main argument was that, given the choices of either giving him another year or firing him in mid-April, you should give him another year. Since we didn't fire him in March, even if we were losing a couple players and coaches, it would have cost much less in terms of damage to the program to hang onto Seth for another year than to bring in the "best available option" so late in the offseason.
So popular Hank Thorns, Tyrone Garland, Manny Atkins, Ben Boggs all decided to take their talents elsewhere after playing for him.
In all fairness,
Manny AtkinsAllan Chaney had to go elsewhere. VT doctors said they would never permit him to play due to his medical condition.*Edited to fix name
I believe you are referring to Allan Chaney
Yes, my fault. With the number of transfers we've had over the last 4 years, many run together.
That's not the point. I'm not trying to defend the guy, he needed to go. But he was able to get some real talent to come here. He got those players to come here, once they got here he was a d-bag and not a good coach at all. But it seemed like his strategy was just to sign as many good players as he could and then see who stuck. It's a jerk move because it can ruin a guy's future, but it definitely worked. Once he got the players here he didn't care about them. And the fans, well we were egging him on during a lot of those NCAA snub rants.
I don't think a single starter ever skipped town on Seth... Maybe Finney-Smith, but he was a complex case.
BBall players transfer all the time when they realize they will never leave the bench. Thorns, Garland, and Boggs couldn't hang in the ACC - it's that simple.
Atkins was a great shooter and would have probably started on a thin team had he stayed. His D left something to be desired and that was a big part of why he didnt get big minutes as a fresh/soph.
Thorns was a stud at TCU (all Mtn West)
http://gofrogs.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/thorns_hank00.html
Garland has been very good at La Salle avg. 13-14 per game.
Could argue they were impatient and not willing to wait for their time, but these guys could play.
I saw JJ's contract come up in conversation yesterday. It's a good point, would you want to extend him? Of course not. But in year 2 of 5 now, going into year 3, this is where you usually extend a coach who you like. If you don't extend him, you are saying he's got one year left. And, of course, that's brutal for recruiting.
So a lot of people say "you gotta give him more than 2 years to clean up this mess." Actually, no you don't. The way contracts/extensions/recruiting works, you basically have 2 years to prove you're the guy or you gotta make a change.
My gut says with the injuries and NCAA transfer holdups, I really feel that he should be allowed a third year. He is still motivating the players to play hard.
My head says, I don't see any plans, I don't see any improvement, call an end to the experiment. But the AD might need an extra year to start raising funds so that he can make a big hire.
JJ doesn't make much. So we should have the money to can him. If we can find the right coach now (i.e., post season end) then you go ahead and grab that guy. I would love to actually have a decent bball team to follow. I have to put up with all these Iowa State, Iowa, and Wisconsin fans where I live too...
U wouldn't last long in our AD. Planning for the future with patience? Seriously? Who knows what tomorrow brings. The world is chaos and cannot be planned for. Live for the here and now!!! Git er done! (Don't care what er is ... Just Do It!!! (we're aligned philosophically with our crappy clothing deal))
We have a basketball team?
I do hope we treat JJ with dignity and respect and that when he leaves he leaves better off because of his association with VT. Guy is a decent guy, who has been thrown (admittedly through his own choice) into a hell of a situation in the name of "dignity and respect" as defined within our Athletic Department.
I hope they at least tell the guy he is fired before scheduling the press conference.
Sad as I hate to say this, JJ is over his head. And was hired to upright a Sunken Ship..Sunken ! He is a very well liked Man, and he never meets a stranger, which to me , makes it Harder, I hope they can find a place in the BB program somewhere for him, He's Hokie and loves VT. And while we are Firing, Go down the Hall and tell Woffle Good Bye Too, He's a leftover from Seth's staff.
And what specific reason would we fire Wolfe for? Just because he is a leftover? He has turned around the program from where Dunkenberger was taking it. He has brought some quality youth that will lead this team for the next couple years. He has shown he has connections to be able to get ACC level players to Blacksburg. The current bad stretch is on the players not making the plays, not on his coaching.
And as crazy as it sounds, he inquired about Seth being fired the year previous to it happening. Had Seth been let go a year earlier, it is likely Coach Wolfe would be in charge of the Men's team instead of the Women's. And personally, I think he'd be a heck of a men's coach as his coaching style would resonate more with the guys than it does some of the girls.
I agree with you regarding Coach Wolfe and his being able to handle the coaching better than JJ by far. He has brought it some significant talent and was dealing with a total rebuild of his roster.
So a short term solution could be to switch them?
I don't know if that even works short term. If JJ deserves to go than he should be gone. We would look almost as ludicrous in the press for this as we did with how we handled Seths firing. I would much rather Babcock make a decision early enough that he can work up a solid list of potential candidates and then proceed to find the right fit.
Why would switching somebody overmatched who doesn't know how to adjust help by having them coach the women's team instead? There is no need to harm the women's team. If he is let go now, just let him go. I feel bad that his development as a coach was rushed and as a result harmed.
There really is no short term solution. At this point, Babcock needs to bring in his own guy who will have to clean house and build the program. They need to find someone that has a coaching style to fit the ACC.
Frankly, I'm surprised attendance was that high for SG's last season. As a student I'm glad I got to see last year's OSU game; if we can get the kind of buzz that was present at that game for the team in general, we can find our way back onto the map. I'm excited to see what our shiny new AD can do in the next few years.
i think attendance at the basketball games for alumni and non-students that dont live in the immediate area is something thats going to be hard to change. i live over 2.5 hours away from blacksburg and cant justify spending the money and driving up for a basketball game on a tuesday night or weekday. as much as i want to support our basketball team the last time i went to a game was my senior year the 2007-2008 season. its so much easier to watch on tv at home. my fiance is in grad school at unc and when your school is in a heavily populated area like chapel hill you can get a crowd for a weekday game.
i think our new ad and whoever our basketball coach is or becomes is going to have a tough task in getting attendance up. wins will help but i think that unless we become a top basketball program were going to struggle in attendance on weekdays.
I think this is exactly the issue. We should explore alternative models to accommodate the islands of alumni separated by I64 and 81; maybe official worry-free ticket exchanges, weekend season tickets, drastically reduced prices mid-week to attract non-student NRV locals, something along those lines.
If they are currently doing something please excuse my ignorance.
I don't believe they are doing most of what you suggested and if you are ignorant as a fan I put a lot of that squarely on the school for not making you aware of opportunities. The common theme running through a lot of this is Tech and the Hokie Clubs failure to communicate effectively.
I am liking that you keep working that theme in. We need to get that message out! Let's be COMPETITIVE HERE HOKIE CLUB!
I think Tech is exploring a tiered price ticket system for basketball which would be nice.
The midweek pricing is a good idea... its NOT been done at all.
Keep in mind that hoops ticket$ have increased by 400% since the mid-80's. Its ridiculous. And during that time, the product has been less than stellar at least half the years.
We are talking about 2,000 people on average for 15 games. Half of those games are on either a Friday or Saturday typically. This season I believe it was seven home games on Friday or Saturday, so manage to get 4,000 extra for those games and its a wash. Even as small as Blacksburg and Christiansburg are, that's not an overly large number of people. Even if the administration just convinces 10% of the student body to come out to games, that's enough to balance out the difference. I am surprised that they haven't built the men's basketball tickets into the Athletic fee and upped the cost of that to $250-$300 a student so they get their money regardless of whether the students show up or not.
I would expect Babcock will look to make the student body a much more invested part in these programs. If students could get in with just showing their ID because they tickets were part of their athletic fee than you would have a much fuller house on a regular basis.
Definitely, make a student ticket available for a very low cost to get a reserved seat and then open up 2,000 seats to first come first serve free students.
Lower the rates to get alumni and BBurg/Cburg fans in the door.
But I also think that VT does need a small/modest increase in athletic fees. Ours might be the lowest in the ACC and part of the reason why we have as small staffs as we do.
$100 times 24,000 undergrads = $2,400,000....that might help get it done.
Heck a $50 increase in student fees most won't even notice and that is over a million a year.
Tickets are already "free" for students as it is. There is a lottery, and you can pick up your ticket from Cassell if you win. These days, you always win, because there's just no interest in going to the games.
And even beyond that, at least in years past, as soon as the game starts they would start letting students in the left side entrance if there were still empty seats, as long as you had your student ID. I'm not sure about this year, since I haven't been to a game, but I'd imagine it's the same way.
My point is, the students already don't have to pay to go, if they want to, which is why less than 400 are actually paying for season tickets. The problem is just that they don't want to go.
This!!!
And get a cheaper coach to pay for it!
Stadium is at less than half capacity every game. Lower prices = sell more tickets = same or greater revenue from attendance plus increased sales of gear, food, etc.
We didn't say tickets have to be half cost, but a reduced rate from what they are, yes.
Exactly. If the tickets were say $10. I would gladly go to the Cassell and support my Hokies. But no way am I paying $35. If we were a better team...I wouldn't think twice.
If they were $20, I would probably go and even watch this team play knowing we are going to get killed.
I think a tiered ticket system of $10-15 nosebleed, $20 corners or behind backboard lower, $40 lower mid court, etc would work well in bringing in additional people over empty unsold tickets.
Living only 20 minutes from the Burg we used to go all the time, but we quit buying tickets because,
1.)They are way to freaking expensive for what product is.
2.)They keep going up in price which I will not pay when the on court product is much like a high school AAU team.
3.)They do very little to engage the fans.
I guess what i'm trying t say is if you want people to be in the stands you need to stop charging a ton for tickets if the on court product is what you would find a lower level college, and do more for the fans. Have members of the team stick around to meet the fans. Just my two cents.
URI which is a much smaller school has local businesses sponsor break t-shirt tosses, etc during every TV timeout/break. Get the local elementary schools playing during half time, etc.
half court shots for a student to possibly win $1000 tuition, winning tickets based on a page in your program, Special reserved seating for one season ticket holder a game, kids spin on a wiffle ball bat and then have to hit three free throws first to do it wins a $X to concessions
Yup, lots of little gimmicks.
maybe someone inverted their supply/demand curve.
Aside from what happened between him and Weaver, I'll never really understand the position of the fans that said Seth had to go after the 2011-12.
It's so sad to see Cassell right now. It's like 2004-2011 never really happened. All that positive momentum was for s#!+
He may have had his faults, but he always wanted what was best for Virginia Tech. Seth engaged the students unlike any coach I've seen at VT in the last 10 years. For many seasons, the VT BBall product was as exciting and competitive as any other in the ACC.
Seth completely changed how VT BBall was perceived on a national level. The team and his television charisma brought real exposure to the program. He did all this without getting in trouble with the NCAA and without ever really embarrassing the university. He was a tireless worker and a winner. He made all those big-game football collapses somewhat bearable because he was the anti-Beamer against top 5 teams. (In his time at Virginia Tech, Greenberg was 3-3 against top-ranked teams, with all three losses coming on final possessions) Seriously, what more do you want?
2 losing seasons in 9 years playing in the Big East and ACC.
5 top 4 ACC finishes
Do the fans really understand how difficult it is to field a competitive team in bball in the middle of no-where?
The top-25 is almost all university's in big markets. Wichita State may be a cinderella, but its a cinderella playing in a town of 400,000 people. Football does fine with alums coming into town on the weekend, but you need real local support ($$$$) when playing multiple m-f games in bball.
You need a very special coach to overcome this. At one point we had that coach.
i wouldn't call the product exciting. watching his brand of offense was painful even in victories.
It was exciting because VT could hang with and beat up on better teams. Every game was winnable - Maryland - Eastern Shore - #1 Duke/NC/Wake Forest. That made every game worth watching
Deron Washington didn't hurt either.
I keep thinking, yes, he was thrown into an awful situation with little chance to succeed.
I also keep thinking, I have not seen any improvement since he became head coach.
So...my point being...it IS possible to know after 2 seasons that he is not the answer and go ahead and fire him.
I know everyone says he is a nice guy and deserves another year, but honestly...I think we do have the right to do a Rob Chudzinski on him. If it ain't workin', it ain't workin'....go ahead and make the move Hokies if you feel he is not going to be the coach 2 years from now, why wait??
JJ was leaving to go be an assistant at Clemson. Clemson is a mediocre team each year at best so it's not like he was leaving for greener pastures. VT bringing him back was fully based on the fact we waited to long to get rid of Seth (I personally like the guy). By waiting to long nobody worth anything was available plus wouldn't come after the manner in which we fired him. This will go down as one of the worst things Weaver did, right behind not allowing us to stick it in at games and last years lack of a home Thursday night game.
I think the biggest reason of the timing, wasn't that they were going to fire him no matter what that off season, but that the exit interview that JJ gave, really put to light a lot of the concerns that Weaver and the rest of the administrators had. The fact that coaches weren't going to "greener pastures" and instead were leaving just to get the hell away said a lot about Seth. If they really knew the depth of everything, Seth probably would have been let go the previous year. Unfortunately for the program, the tipping point was during an inopportune time.
At this point, blame can be pointed in many directions, but it will be up to the new AD to put in his solution. Babcock seems to know what he is doing and had plenty of experience hiring and firing at Cincy, so I'm sure he will make the right decision accordingly.
When I was at Tech (ole fogey talk here) Cassell was rocking to the brim and students would camp out for tickets. We had some great players and played fast-paced basketball.
Point being, if you win, fans will come.
Focus on a good charismatic hire and get some higher level recruits and then beat some people.