Once again, the caveat: There is no better team-player thant JCC. Unfortunately, the depth chart for successful teams must reflect the order of productivity.
I was all in for JC Coleman to break through. Finally 100%, I wanted to see him excel.
I'm not sure how you could defend keeping him as your starter with this:
This is apples to apples.
Shai and Juice were running with the ones, against the ones, just like JC.
They were able to move the pile, make guys miss, and find the holes (especially Shai), that JC just didn't.
I'm just a fan. I don't see the practices. I don't know the intangibles that made JC a starter.
But I can watch the game, and read the box score.
I love J.C. and what he brings to the team off the field. I wish his on-field results matched his want-to and his spirit and the faith that the coaches have had in him.
But I think it's time to make the right call for the team.
Comments
I think it's fairly obvious how Shai had the best day, but I just loved how he hit the hole and got going. He needs to get a few more touches.
And I don't think JCC played poorly until that fumble. Guy can't make mistakes like that.
So yes, I think I'm jumping on that Shai bandwagon, but I feel like JCC has to have a role somewhere. He does have talent.
He's the scat back. The change up. I've said for a while that you don't want to take JC out completely, but he can't be the everydown back. I'd like to see the Hokies hammer with Shai and Marshawn, and then when the defense is worn out, but in JC.
He's not even scat'ing at this point though. Well maybe he is, but you get it.
Great post. JC is a hard worker and great person as well as Hokie but I just think that Shai and Marshawn should run the show and once Edmunds is fully healthy he should get some carries as well. However JC is still a solid returner so hopefully he will still get his chance to shine.
Aaron Moorehead on Isaiah Ford earning the starting spot.
Shai & marshwan are the top two RBs right now until trey is back . I've seen enough of JC to know he's not an every down back.
This shouldn't be a controversy. There is none.
Shai and Marshawn are better than J.C. at running the football. Period. J.C. should be third on the list for the rotation, and possibly has potential as a 3rd down back, but he simply does not produce at a level that helps the team on the field as a workhorse back.
I am not sure I want him on the field even on third down.
Yea, I've never really seen VT employ the stereotypical 3rd down back, the kind that runs routes well, has good hands, runs screens well, and runs draws well. If JC can do all that, perfect, let Loeffler implement it. If not, then keep in the best blocking back.
Agree 100%, I hope it changes throughout the season, but today, JC did not help the team.
And definitely not on the dang goal line. That baffled me.
Agree. We know JC can work well in space, but contrary to all the statements from the coaches about his strength and ability to run between the tackles, I just don't see it.
JC is a great teammate and a great Hokie, I just think he needs a role refinement. Use him on kick coverage; he can do well there. He has good hands and good speed. Split him out wide every now and again; I feel sure he can blow past a LB in the flat. But indeed, the youth movement showed that Shai and Juice belong on the field. Great effort and great results from those guys today. We're in good shape with them on the field while Trey heals. Then he can come back and be in the mix, but the coaches always must put the best guys on the field.
I wonder if we'll see any two-back sets in the future? Imagine the combined pants-crapping that opponents would engage in with Shai and Juice on the field at the same time. Thunder and Lightning for this generation, to be sure.
After watching those two, and now watching LSU, Wisconsin and particularly UGA (not making a direct Todd Gurley comparison), these guys can be the prototypical power backs Tech needs to punch people in the mouth on a weekly basis. Here's hoping the O-line will stay healthy and continue to improve, and these guys along with Trey will bring performances like these to ACC play!
I'm certainly no expert, but JC doesn't appear to have the elusiveness or quickness...not speed, quickness...usually seen from a back of his size. It seems like he can't get past the first, and sometimes only, defender in his path. I have faith in the coaches, but the Hokies have several players that I'd rather see get touches than JC...including in the return game.
Didn't Caleb actually pick up more yds than JCC in garbage time?
Caleb had a 3.8 yd/carry avg on 5 carries.
But as you said, that was in garbage time, and I wanted to keep this post to like carries.
Shai looked the best by far. His average also indicated that. Marshawn looked shifty, but he ran too damn high and was tackled too easily. He's a back that could truck people. He needs to run with leverage, especially at the end of the run. JC, well, I would not use any of these words to describe JC's running ability: shifty, strong, fast, good vision. I'll leave it at that.
The two things I'm curious to see this season that will answer a lot of my questions about Shanes ability to coach RBs will be 1: can he effectively sort this rotation out as the season progresses and 2: will we see Williams start to run with lower pads indicative of coaching
These are things that can't be blamed on oline production or RB talent, but are things that he is directly responsible for
I only saw the highlights (VTPhreak you're the man!) so I understand that my point of view is skewed, but high pad level or not there were at least 3 plays where he Marshawn had at least 3 guys going with him. Again, understand I have a skewed perspective.
This is pretty much how see it now, maybe with the exception of good vision. I see him hit the holes -- or at least aim for them, but I don't see him hitting them with the speed, power, and balance (seriously,someone that short and strong should rarely be dropped with an arm tackle), to get the 5 yards that Shai or Edmunds or Williams gets instead of the 1 or 2 (or a loss even).
I think that in the effort to make him a between-the-tackles, workhorse back, they have tried to add power (weight), at the expense of the natural talents he had as a scat-back.
If they worked at slimming him down this year to regain the quickness, I think he'd have more production in those sorts of situations like little flare routes, sweeps and screens.
This is where I always liked Mangus -- he had speed that J.C. has never shown me consistently, and he also was taller, making him an easier target for a pass. It's not easy dropping a ball over a bunch of 6'4" linemen, and down to someone JC's size.
No, I'm not saying I wish JC had left instead of Mangus. I wish we'd never been put in the situation that completely turned our RB and WR situation upside down a couple years ago, that forced JC to try to re-engineer his body, and I wish that Mangus had found a role in the backfield.
I don't know where Chris transferred to, but I wouldn't be surprised in the least if we see his stats one day and wonder how we ever let him go.
The good news is that our chances of running into this situation in the future are much less now that we are recruiting position players out of high school, instead of settling on great athletes who may or may not stick at any one position.
Coleman, is getting too many carries, showing too little results, especially in short yardage & goal situations.
I agree, JC should not be in any goal line packages.
Actually, for some reason, the thing JC does best is goal line. He's honestly pretty good at getting slightly outside and punching it in
It's tough, cause he is a good kid, but I've never felt confident of JCC as our back. The other two reminded me of Hokie football.
I think when Trey Edmunds is a 100%, him and Shai will be the top two. Shia is still recovering and might have a higher gear than what we saw. But don't underestimate Edmunds he was gaining momentum right as he got hurt. I think most people underestimate Trey!
It doesn't get mentioned much, but Edmunds is also excellent in pass protection (based on my novice observations). I don't know if it's that HS LB experience or what, but he squares guys up and delivers hits pretty regularly. He did it at least once today on the punt team, stopped a guy dead in his tracks.
Agreed, from my vantage point, I thought Trey did really well on special teams. He played with a lot of energy and enthusiasm.
How much can we attribute to play calling? (run the little guy up the gut against a huge DL)
According to the coaches?
Zero.
They tell us he can run between the tackles, physics be damned.
I think physics just demonstrated you cannot just wish it away.
It's not physics. He's the strongest VT RB ever in front squat. It's inability to use his strength to get through creases and break tackles. Ray Rice is about the same size as JC, he has no problems with NFL size D-lines.
I have so hoped that JCC would develop into a Ray Rice.
Only in terms of on the field ability. We definitely don't want a complete on and off the field Ray Rice package.
Haha, I was just gonna post that JC's significant other probably doesn't hope that.
The fact that the coaches might have to change their game plan to get production out of JC is evidence that he isn't the best every down back on the team. JC has a role to play on this team but "starting running back" probably isn't it.
What are we going to do, not run the ball up the middle when our starting running back is in the game?
^^ Really like the thought put into this. The coaches are seeing something in JC we are not seeing (I generally side with coaches know best), but strangely the vast majority of what we see is in game situations. I recognize the implications of my last statement (it could justify any manner of thought based on any individual's single game performance); however, I think the sample size is quickly growing on JC. I am not sure what this will lead to, but at worst, either JC is pushed by freshman chomping at his heels, or the freshmen are forced to continue improving because JC steps up his game. Competition is intended to identify the best, but further, competition is what forces us to be our best. I think our team is subscribing to the methodology that the best will play given the recent QB competition, and that is exciting in my opinion.
For whatever reason, once JCC encounters any resistance, his run is over. He simply doesn't gain yards after contact.
I've been a big supporter/defender of JCC and still think that he's a great teammate and Hokie.
That being said, you absolutely cannot afford to fumble the football unless you are running the ball very, very, very well. Especially if you are vying for playing time. That's my biggest issue. Hard to justify him starting after that unless the freshman start to struggle.
Usually, when a more experienced, yet less talented back starts and gets more plays than younger, less experienced, but more talented backs, the older guys abilities in pass protection are usually the deciding factor. But in this game, I witnessed both Shai and Marshawn do well in picking up pass rushers, so the coaches do not even have that excuse to fall back on.
What perplexes me, are the statements about using different backs for different packages, yet we see JC being used in the worst possible situations for someone of his skill set, when there are better, more obvious choices standing on the sideline. JC should be catching the ball out of the backfield, not pounding the ball up the middle on short yardage situations. I said it in a different thread, but it is like Shane grabs a small claw hammer for major demolition, but opts for a 10lb sledge to hang a picture.
Thought1: I agree with most everyone on here that JCC shouldn't be the every down/ starting back. We don't beat a team like OSU with him getting 10-15 touches a game.
Thought 2: Shai is the best back we have on the team even with a 100% Edmunds. There are always things he will need to work on, but he is an elite talent and gives us the best chance to play championship caliber ball
If you want to have a chance against OSU, Shai's the guy.
Sounds to me like JC would make a great tight end...
I kid. But I agree with just about everyone else, I've pulled for him from the get-go, but you can't argue with results, the freshmen really did their part today. Whoever said that JC could do special teams was spot on though.
What was JCC's final YPC? How many fumbles? How many times did we see him trip up in the backfield? There wasn't a thing to show for it but a gimmick TD (at least in my opinion). Oh well, I guess it wouldn't be a Hokie Season without a RB saga :D
I agree, and I believe our staff gave JC every chance to succeed. He shouldn't be bitter, and likewise, his high school coaches should not be bitter with all the opportunities we gave him, because we really tried to make him a big part of our offense...it just clearly isn't working out.
I'm hoping maybe the coaches decided to play JCC a lot this game where the "threat" was lower, but were treating it more like one last scrimmage for JCC to prove he has what it takes. Or maybe he is the only one who knows the full playbook this early. I guess we will find out the for OSU game
My first thought when I saw him out there was that against a lower opponent they were going to rotate through all the running backs and the veteran got the start. That was somewhat true but I was surprised that Caleb didn't get more significant carries and that Edmunds didn't get any at all. Maybe he's still hurt or Lefty doesn't want to show his hand.
I think Edmunds is still working his way back from injury, he was in mainly on special teams, someone said he was in on one play on offense, but I must've missed him out there.... but we have the luxury of letting him rehab at his own pace, there's no sense forcing him out there before he's 100% ready
In 2+ seasons with the program, JC Coleman has only one real game where I've been impressed by him and that was Duke in 2012. A back with his size should not be running dives in goal to go situations, there's a history that shows it doesn't work. Also, that fumble really bothered me because the way he was carrying the rock on that play was like a loaf of bread and is something a junior shouldn't be doing. Shai and Juice showed the ability to make plays both because and INSPITE of offensive line play, that is something we haven't had since David Wilson. JCC just hasn't made progress as an every down runner and is limited by his size.
And that Duke rush defense might have been the worst rush defense the Hokies have faced in that time frame.
I don't see any controversy. The two freshman are clearly bigger, faster , and stronger. ..unless they start JC against OSU....then we have a controversy.
Sorry I love you JC but your ship has sailed as a Hokie starter.
If Shane Beamer can't see it from last year and after yesterday, It's not JC's fault that he is being played in front VTs best RBs. Shane Beamer's Fault , period. 757 area is what Shane is seeing and that would be the only reason I can think of for him to continue to play JC. Moorehead said it best when he put Ford as #1 WR . Something Shane can't or won't understand or see. Time VT played their Best RBs.
This is it.
The issue really has nothing to do with JC or the other running backs.
I have no doubt that each one is giving it their all.
The big question, and the reason behind this whole post, is whether the RB rotation will reflect the production on the field, and uncertainty (at least with our outside fan's perspective) with Shane's decision process.
There, I said it.
I was not as impressed with Williams running ability as some, outside of his 10 yard run he was so-so. I would like to see what Shai would do with about 20 carries and around the goal line.
He is a pile mover. Also he has some serious intensity when he was in there. Dude was pumped and reminded me of a back that got better as the game progressed.
I think Shai is the number one slot. And to think this kid sat out last year with a torn ACL. Some Adrian Peterson return right there (so far).
I agree, Williams is a beast. Shai may have a step more explosiveness but Williams with a lil coaching (runs a tad to high) is going to be a horse. I love the way the freshmen are getting after it.
He must show something in practice so I feel the only controversy is the coaches need to use Coleman in plays in which he can succeed. As well I'm guessing neither McKenzie nor Williams could possibly be a healthy 100%. Can't wait to see them at full tilt though.
And where was Carlis Parker? Guess William & Mary spent the whole weak studying his end around stuff from the UCLA game and Brewer's limited Texas Tech film. Ohio State will have more to work with. Is Loeffler a chess master? What will he throw at (pun intended) them next week?
I was wondering about Carlis as well.
Stanford ran the one sweep, and there was no Wild Turkey.
Next week could be interesting.....
Rumors that Carlis Parker has left the team.
Is this a joke?
Yeah nobody else has heard that rumor
Don't shoot the messenger but I've read that elsewhere as well. No clue if true.
Maybe not here, but on a couple other VT sites so take it FWIW. One thing is for sure, he wasn't on the sidelines yesterday.
I was so impressed with shai. since it was the 1st time many of us got to see him run I couldn't have been happier. both he and marshawn looked like rbs from a few years ago. they both worked and pushed the pile once they had contact. something jc hasn't done. I'm with all of you. jc is a great hokie but I think yesterday should be his last game as a starter
I'm seeing a lot of comments (well, several anyway) about how Juice didn't look that impressive.
But for me, his battering-ram runs where it took 3 guys to stop him were exactly what I wanted to see. He could improve on the goal line though, because I do agree that he looked tentative and high there.
What remains to be fully seen is if getting the bigger, stronger guys is just a cover for OL performance. I would hate to see too little OL improvement, and only make up for it with these kids bodies. David Wilson wasn't that big, either, but somehow he'd frequently break long ones (still running when Chick-fil-a opened for him on Sunday).
Agreed, if you can't punch through with what we got, get bigger guys…bigger is better, but we'll see after a few more games how the OL can gel and make some lanes.
I don't know much about OL, so I'll have to wait until French tells me about how things went before I formulate opinions, but I thought the OL looked good out there.
Brewer didn't get sacked ONCE, and there were no negative rushing plays. I expect to read good things.
My thoughts exactly.
Seeing these guys run yesterday, I think my mind on this is finally made up. For the last few years I haven't been huge on JC (or even Trey, for that matter), but I've always heard that they're the best guys for the position. I've relented because I figured it was always true. I liked Mangus and Wright for those positions more, but that ship has sailed.
After seeing Shai and Marshawn, I no longer believe JC and Trey are the best options. If they're great in pass protection, that's great. But it looks to me like the two freshmen should be on the field.
Shai looked awesome. Reminded me of Kevin Jones and totally laid the lumber on some poor W&M LB/S. I thought Marshawn was supposed to be the soul crusher, but Shai stepped up and did it.
Marshawn reminded me of Darren Evans. A little slow, I thought, or maybe he was just patient in letting the holes open up (chuckle). He looked kinda...overweight. I'd like to see how he can move if he slims down a little. At his size, I expected him to lower the shoulder on someone, but never really saw him try trucking anyone.
I'm not ready to sell Trey short just yet -- I think the light was coming on when he got injured, and there's no doubting he has the speed and power to be a great back and fight his way up the depth chart.
Add that to Shai and Juice, and if you are an opposing Defense, you've got a terrifying 4 quarters of bruising fast and fresh tailbacks coming at you.
Look at Trey vs loluva- he was gashing them. I think if he get's back 100% we have a great combination with Shai, Marshawn and JC.
Not sure what JC needs to do but maybe only used in space? He seems to go down with little or no contact like a swat in the ankle is enough to knock his feet out from under him and he has a bad habit of releasing the ball immediately when he goes down. Maybe it's nothing but it scares me.
He was having a better game against UVA than he did against Alabama where most of his 100+ yds came from that touchdown run. Before he got hurt he was hitting holes with patience and vision that he hadn't all season. You could see the lightbulb over his head. He's not as natural a running back as Shai, and he doesn't have the power Williams has, but there is a place for him, a pretty significant one I think.
Can you imagine rotating a 220lbs and 230lbs running back in a hurry up offense? Defenses are going to be spitting their teeth out after playing the Hokies for 3 quarters assuming Shane makes the right personnel decisions.
Like the Gurley/Chubb combo for UGA last night.
I can't help but feel bad for Clemson. The game opened so close, no one could score (after the first 21 a piece, of course). I was prepared for UGA to be "overrated" again.
I never feel bad for klemsun-
I was ecstatic to see how well Williams moved the pile. He fed off of it as did the rest of the offense. He's more of a Lee Suggs and Shai is more of a Kevin Jones.
There's no need for a 3rd back in the rotation particularly when we have so many other talented offensive weapons; Sam Rodgers, Byrn, Hodges, Malleck, Ford, Stanford, Cline, Phillips in addition to Shai and Marshawn.
Having Trey in would be fine. Shai, Williams and Edmunds are all 220+ with good moves. Shai and Edmunds rotate as the faster all-round backs, Williams as the punishing back. Ideally I'd like to see Williams for short yardage/goal line, but he'll need to get lower and more decisive first
JC should be our 3rd down back right now. Other than that he shouldn't really play much. Nothing against the guy personally, he seems like a great kid, but he's just not as good as the other two. With that said, Welcome Back Hokie Football! This is like the good ole' days. Two good running backs (who will be great) splitting carries and never giving the defense a rest. This is what I like, now let's do it out of a power formation and not out of the pistol.
After reading all of the comments all I can say is FINALLY! I've been thinking/saying this for the past two years, really. I love JC as a kid, one of the hardest workers on the team, but he does not belong in our top 3 this year.
As krak mentioned in the post, the results are the bottom line, and JC underperformed significantly compared to the freshmen backs. He was running behind the same line as Shai and Marshawn, and 2.0 yards per carry does not earn playing time.
I agree 100% with you. I/we all know that JC is a true Hokie, BUT we have to have the best players on the field this coming weekend. We cant just "give him carries" at the Horseshoe because of his dedication. We have to have production from our "stud backs", keep the chains moving so the D can rest, and play a complete/smart game...on both sides of the ball if we are gonna have a punchers chance this weekend.
I am looking forward to this game with OSU. I hope I'm not just drinking the Kool-Aid, and I know we've only played one game at home against W&M, but I have a feeling we could have a special season. Lets leave it all on the field!! GO HOKIES!!!!
Is there such a thing as the OL blocking better for certain guys? Cause it sure looked like it when Shai & Juice were out there. I think JC has something to offer, but seems like he goes down on first contact much more easily so maybe the OL isn't following through on their blocks as much, idk.
Shai and Marshawn could shed arm tackles. JC could not.
I think their defense was just salivating at a chance to hit JC. They're not as eager against Marshawn or Shai.
Wut
I thought the same thing.
I'm not sure if it's that, but perhaps just personnel combinations in general on the OL that worked better. I don't know all of the guys' numbers yet, so I couldn't follow who was rotating in and out, but I know different guys were in on different plays. I think Searels is still evaluating who is best where to find the right combination.
I don't think so. Shai seemed to have the best vision and find the hole and get there quickly. Juice is a big dude and really has the ability to move the pile. JC, as you say, tends to go down on first contact. A back with his qualities should be avoiding getting hit, yet he just seems to run into filled gaps. I think this is a lack of vision, not a lack of blocking by the OL.
I'm curious if anyone else agrees with me on this- but does anyone think that Marshawn needs to get lower? I felt like he showed a lot of power, but he seemed very upright running the football, and even when he ran towards contact it felt like he remained upright.
The saying goes "lowest man wins", and Marshawn won a few while still being too high- so I'd love to see what would happen if he starts running low with that same power.
I thought so too. It was really apparent to me on one run where he's driving forward and a defender straight up picked him up, and as he brought him back to the ground, Marshawn drove the very tip of his toe into the ground and got a couple more yards.
While impressive that he created that much drive when at such a mechanical disadvantage, he should have just not been at the disadvantage in the first place.
Yup. Like to see lower shoulders and higher knees at the point of contact.
Here is my take on this particular issue: JC Coleman is not going to be productive as a starting running back. If you put his speed in the game when everyone still has all of their speed, they will tackle him to the ground with one finger. Shai and Juice should be used to wear out the defense and then use JC on a sweep or end-around, not up the middle in a power formation. I looked at JC Coleman's numbers over the past three seasons and noticed a couple things: JC had a reasonable 4.5 yds/carry two years ago, mostly due to long runs. Last year he only had 3.4 yds/carry (granted he was injured much of last year). This year, I had high expectations for him, but he only had 2 yds/carry and a fumble against a team who, on paper, shouldn't have been able to stop our run game. The more obvious stat from my research is that JC has only had 3 rushing touchdowns over the last 2 years, so why were we using him in a goal line set? Sure he scored from a yd out yesterday, but the defense was not set on that play. It just seems like a bad match up every time. Shai and Juice should split the reps in the first half vs Ohio State. Then JC should come in when the defense is tired. Sorry for the essay.
I tend to agree, if the coaches insist on using JCC. that is the mostly likely option for him to be successful
I would really like to see Shai be the starter and let him run wild until the defense begins to wear down. Then we can bring in Juice to hammer them. Maybe do this on long drives when the D begins to get gassed. It will be tough for anybody to tackle Marshawn when they get worn out. I'd still like to see JCC get touches, but just not between the tackles on a 1st and 10.
Yeah, now that we have weapons in the WR and TE positions, I think its gonna be hard to find him any significant number of touches going forward for JC. Kudos to his work ethic and character, but given all the other options we have Im just not seeing it.
Just going by what we saw yesterday and in previous seasons, Shai would obviously be at the top of the RB depth chart at least until Trey is healthy and possibly after. Marshawn didn't really impress me as much as I expected. He had 6 running plays of less than 3 yards (one was called back due to holding by Teller), and two of them consisted of running straight into the offensive line at the 2 yard line for no gain instead of looking for a hole (haven't looked at a replay yet, but I think there was some open space just to the left of where he ended up on at least one of them). There were 4 runs in the 3-5 yard range (one of them called back for holding by Hansen) and 3 runs that went for 5 or more yards (6, 8, and 10). Shai for comparison had two runs in the 3-5 yard range, his other 7 runs all went for 5 or more yards.
Marshawn clearly had a better game than JC. JC had 2 good runs: 5 yards and a 2 yard TD, 2 runs in the average (3-5) range, one of which ended badly with a fumble, and 6 of his runs went for less than 3 yards He also had two receptions that went for -1 and no gain. That said, I don't think Marshawn has shown that he is better than a healthy Trey Edmunds at this point. I would have liked to have seen Joel Caleb get a few more caries before garbage time so we'd have a better idea of how he compares to Marshawn, because he's looked pretty good when he has gotten the ball but its always been in garbage time. I think my "based on what we've seen in games" depth chart would have to be McKenzie at the top followed closely by Edmunds and then either Williams or Caleb.
I look at JC, and Caleb, now as more situational options.
We're blessed to have many weapons this year, and with a hopefully soon healthy Trey, we can freakin' pound the ball and have fresh legs at all times.
Then, if we need the edge we've got JC.
And, if we line up Caleb, he can motion over as a receiver and be a weapon there as well.
And whoever is the best at pass-pro, then put them in when needed.
And when we need to go nuclear, just hand off to the S-bomb, Mr. Rogers.
So many toys to play with.