Season started with the head coach talking about a title game entry or bust and it's going to finish with at best a .500 record, losing back to back games against Duke
And just to drive the point home a little further, VT basketball, whom we took money away from to pay for this shitty football team, just lost to Jacksonville and is arguably one of the 5 worst P5 teams in the country.
Whit Babcock has destroyed Virginia Tech athletics. Fire his ass into the sun. Absolute terrible athletic director who deserves all the smoke this winter.
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I'm not angry. Just - as French mentioned - good teams find ways to win games they do not play well in. Bad teams find ways to lose games, even when they outplay the other team. We are just a bad team.
The season is over. Could not care less about the Virginia game or the bowl game. Even if 7-6 (unlikely) it is a total failure of the coaching staff with a 7-6 record last year and all those people coming back. Start Pop even if others are healthy. Get the kids experience. Start the search for a new DC and other coaches.
Fire Whit and clean this embarrassment of an Athletic Department out from top to bottom.
No one that is currently employed should be retained.
Given how the football team is mediocre, basketball is losing to teams like Jacksonville,, and we have mass program exodus like the one brought on my Kenny I would say this is the real issue. The athletic department doesn't have what it takes to succeed in the current state of any of the major sports and isn't showing the ability to adapt.
And I'll add that in order for changes like the ones needed in the AD, it will take desire and action from the school president + BoV, and I just don't see that happening.
I'm not here to vent.
I'll just say when your line is a sieve, and you keep running into it, you're not going to do well.
Otherwise, we were in a game with our third string qb running the show for most of the contest. It could have been far worse. Like pinstripe bowl worse.
Yup. Dont know at all why we kept pounding it inside.
Maybe call something other than 4 straight passes from the pocket for a young QB? Or how about stop relying on the QB run early when your QB is clearly hurt and playing through it considering you have an entire game to play?
This staff just can't manage well. They call what they know and that's it - personnel, situations, risk management, game flow be damned
I was actually surprised at this. I would have thought the plans for the QBs would have been the opposite. Let Schlee throw it more and have Pop run more.
I thought Pop performed well though. OL was a sieve though and Duke's DL came through ALL NIGHT.
You are giving the coaches too much credit. We can't block Duke up front. Can't, thus Schlee gives you a numbers advantage ramming into the line, so you can get 3 yards. That's all this was. It morphed into that under Fuente too- can't block, can't play up front, so let's see if we can get a numbers advantage. It's shitty football. It's 5-6 football.
Manny Diaz literally laughing about how bad they played.
...and still won.
Brent Pry is a nice guy but is a stone cold Loser.
VT is going nowhere under him.
He's VT's Willie Taggart...looks the part, talks the game, but coaches like shit.
Fire him now..there is no pathway to improvement under him.
"Brent Pry is a nice guy but is a stone cold Loser."
That summarizes it. Nice guy. But not effective and not respected.
Ugh, the Taggart comp hadn't occurred to me before, now I can't unsee it
I feel a true hated for Babcock and Ballein. Like, I shouldn't but, I truly hate them.
Brent Pry is 1-12 in one score games in his career and keeps finding more asinine ways to lose.
The guy is in over his head. His coordinators are terrible and we look completely unprepared for how to handle games when they get close. It happens every single time and you can count on it going to shit when it gets close.
He's a lame duck head coach. The only reason he won't be fired this year is because we have to fire the AD first. Absolutely terrible position to be in as a school. Whit has completely failed all of us.
Pry just got out coached by Manny fucking Diaz. Full stop.
He's not getting fired. But he better damn well make some changes. Big changes or he's done next year.
To be fair, i think Diaz is a good coach. He was completely handcuffed by Miami, given no resources, then as soon as the hospital sent COVID money to the athletic department, instead of taking the handcuffs off, they dumped him for Cristobal.
Manny Diaz is 3-1 vs VT.
So is everyone else the last ten years!
What a joke! Corey Moore was right, this coaching staff is MAC level at best.
Glad I didn't buy a single ticket nor merch this season.
If you want changes you better start buying and donating. Nothing happening here other the current donor levels.
I ain't donating until they show the donation will be put to good use. Right now I feel like lighting cash on fire would be a better use of that money
Then don't expect change. I'm telling you we don't have the money to do the things people want (we can't even NIL two programs).
Then cut as many non rev sports as it takes to be able to afford it.
And if that means we have to completely gut the athletic department of sports then so be it.
Or just throw in the towel and defund the athletic department completely and focus on us only from an academic standpoint.
If we don't have the money then cut everything that is a drain on funds until we can be financially solvent.
Title IX is gonna keep that from happening.
Bold of you to assume that lasts long in the next administration
baseless and laughable comment based off what we've seen with current administration when it comes to attacks on Title IX.
I know we try to keep this forum politics free, so this is my first and last comment on it.
The thing is once the House settlement lands that very thing is going to happen to a lot of university programs. You're looking at like $20M+ a year in just compensatory payments to players. Nobody is getting fired with that uncertainty in the wind and it is going to affect a lot more than just VT.
Going to be interested to see the mean vs average on these payouts. $22M first year is $209K average on 105 player roster.
The ~$20m is across all sports, not just football.
But, based on judge Wilken's comments, seems like 'NIL'/collectives will remain active too.
We're going to watch Virginia celebrate bowl eligibility on our field after we make Colandrea look like Steve Young next week and I can't even stomach the thought of it.
Idk what this team does at practice.
Any competent coaching staff would've had pop as the number 1 taking reps this past two weeks and starting his game.
Meh.... if there aren't major staff shakeups this off-season I'm all out on Pry.
We have learned how to lose. Hard fucking cycle to break.
They flat out do not know how to win. Even with that absolute gift of a fumble at the end, I still knew they were going to find a way to lose. If a game is close in the 4th, every fan watching knows they're going to lose. And you have to think the coaches and players have it in the back of their minds too. That's learning how to lose.
By the way:
98 days
18 hours
16 minutes
14 seconds
Until Iditarod.
Marve has got to be gone. Duke has a crappy offense and they just put up 31 points.
There is talent on the Defense but they are so disorganized.
Marve should have been escorted off the field after Duke's first two possessions
As long as Pry is the head coach I don't care about VT football anymore
As long as Whit Babcock is the AD, I don't care about VT athletics anymore.
Tonight is my breaking point. I'm tired of being invested into a program that is run by complete incompetence. I cannot financially or emotionally support something that I have absolutely no faith in.
I'm out until changes are made. It's not worth investing in something when you know deep down there is no hope of any positive return on that investment.
I have been that way for the last couple of years. I'll check the game on my phone and if it's worth looking at I will. I turned it off last night. Better time spent getting Christmas decor up. I saw they were close with 5 minutes left only to see them choke repeatedly on the last possessions. Why I turned it on to watch Pry choke again in a close game I don't know. It's like an addiction where you come back and get slapped repeatedly.
My Christmas tree is up and that's a good thing.
this wasn't a coaching issue here and that's what pisses me off the most.
FIFY.
I don't see a path for OL development. We haven't see any LB development either. That's coaching.
I think it's a combo of coaching, injuries, and may I say just plain old lack of talent and limited athleticism. That's what I see since the Fuente era. Just limited talent in recruiting. The play is better than high school, but not by much.
I'm sort of sympathetic to this argument, especially on OL.
But if that's the case, pour the NIL dollars there, work on developing the new guys, etc.
We're seeing Pry recruits show potential at every position except at LB and OL. But those two position groups account for over a third of the starting 22.
We had two cornerbacks literally fall down and allow two huge TD receptions in a one-score game. How do you coach not falling down to Div. I athletes?
Not arguing for keeping the coaches, but THIS game was a player loss.
There are lots of ways. Comes down to doing drills involving quick changes in speed/direction. Working on watching the body movements of the receivers so you can anticipate where they are going so that your body is ready to start moving in the correct direction.
The slipping is a huge problem with preparation with both the equipment managers and warmups. It seems pretty obvious some players didn't get a feel for the field during warmups, or weren't taking things serious enough getting lined up for the play. You half-ass those things and that is why your ass ends up on the ground during the play.
Are you kidding?
Not trying a field goal before half.
Going for it too early from the 32 (passing up another field goal).
Letting 40 SECONDS run off before the 2 minute warning.
Would've been nice to have those at the end.
It absolutely was in game coaching.
I spent the first 3 quarters of the game watching the Orlando Pride win the NWSL Championship! A much better way to spend the evening. I then watched us get close and blow it at the end. Again. I'm not even surprised anymore, which is the saddest part. If Marve is still employed tomorrow, what are we even doing!? 😡🤬😡🤬
There are so many circumstances (the Fuente-hole, injuries, etc) that would make these result seem reasonable and understandable.
But when you actually watch the game, and it's absolutely mind blowing.
How do you win the turnover battle 4-2 and lose the game?
The failed offensive line development, the failed LB fills, the repeated coverage busts, the procedural penalties... it all kills us over and over and over again.
This was supposed to be a promising season. Now I'm just looking forward to seeing what staff changes happen this offseason.
I think we've lost before when winning the turnover battle.
Jesus, Mary, and Joseph,
I think it's past time that the fanbase at large starts raising a huge, relentless stink over the state of things. We tanked our athletics to cover NIL for this.
Firing Marve won't help.
Firing Bowen won't help.
Firing Pry won't help.
Whit needs to pack his shit, Ballein needs to be forced into early retirement, and Merryman needs to be gutted from top to bottom.
Enough pussyfooting around. It's time to let the past die.
We had some amazing years under Beamer. But the program needs to be stripped down to the bare metal, and if we ever want to be successful in football again - before it's too late and the game passes us by forever - we need athletics leadership that understands how to build and sustain a successful football program in the modern era.
It's already too late. We'd need $25-30MM to burn down and start over. We don't have that. Our best hope is to force change within the current system.
It's arguably already too late for us to save the future of VT athletics given where we are right now and how soon the end game for college sports will occur.
Whit might be the absolute worst AD we could have hired at the time for what we needed. Which is insane to think given what it seemed like at the time.
Can we also get rid of the number 25 jersey each week? I'm starting to think that's a curse!
Hot take, we may have the Beamer legacy, but South Carolina has the Beamer franchise.
A legacy we get to face week 1 next season.
I'm glad I stopped watching after Duke went up 0-14. Ol' Scott Frost Jr somehow does it again.
I'm also not convinced at all that Whit is the problem. Everyone in or adjacent to the industry speaks highly of him. And I think defunding the basketball teams was the right move - just because it didn't work out doesn't mean it's the wrong move.
Unfortunately for him, his legacy will be the results of his coaching hires, not the fundraising strides he made.
He doesn't get a third chance to make a hire.
Lmfao. His brilliant research and interview strategy /processes was praised... and it resulted in a guy that lost to Odu and liberty and was fired after 5 years. He gives his Olympic coaches shit pay and hired a guy that is 1-12 in one score games. He fucking sucks.
EVERYONE lauded the Fuente hire. He was an experienced head coach, who won big at a trash program.
As far as the shit pay - If a new AD comes in and is able to convince our donors to spend enough to pay our Olympic coaches more, I'll gladly eat crow, but I doubt that will happen. Whit can't force people to part with their money. VT boosters either can't or don't want to spend enough to keep the Buzzes, the Kevin Dressers, Pete Hughes, etc in addition to fund a football program, and they never have.
Whit came in and hit a home run hiring Buzz, spread some funding around to non-rev sports to get them more up to par in the ACC, and hired Fuente who seemed like an A+ hire on paper at the time.
But I just don't think Whit is a great communicator or has a very well structured or strong AD where everyone is rowing in the right direction. Fu turned out to be a bust, but the Ballein undermining stuff is a major red flag on how that crap was allowed to happen and Whit was ok with it. Also once Buzz left, I feel like he caved into the small town country club mindset of the VT AD and Beamer holdovers like Ballein who want to just not rock the boat and keep the status quo. Mike Young and Brent Pry were comfort hires - guys that fit in the right circles in Blacksburg and fit in, and who won't leave. Those were two very big mistakes IMO. Whit sort of at some point lost focus and lost his edge and became part of the Blacksburg swamp. And that will be his undoing here.
has earned the right to go out on his own terms, let's keep it 100
Big facts. Whit has given him an impossible task. We're lucky Mike Young is still here lmao. That man won an ACC tournament, put some respect on his name.
Strong disagree on CMY. He's an average coach, and if not for that extremely flukey ACC title run, he may have already been worn out his goodwill with the fan base. He's not a terrible coach, but he's not great either. He's career average. But he's from SWVA and friends with the circle down there, and he won't leave. So that checked all the big boxes.
Seriously. Just fire that dinosaur. If some of the old boys club donors don't like it, fuck 'em. Get football winning again and new donors will come.
But that's what the people footing the bill (and the fan base at large) wanted.
Would you prefer Whit pulled an Allen Greene, hire a coach who his boosters didn't like, just to see them go out of their way to undermine the hire?
The Pry hire made sense. The Coordinator hires should've been blocked, I'll admit. I don't know enough about basketball hires, but it appeared to me that CMY had the resume to get a mid-tier ACC basketball job.
The Pry and CMY hires made sense on the surface - they're guys with a twangy Appalachian accent, golly shucks personality that just resonates with what the VT donors and admin want. But CMY was a career mid major average coach. Pry was very under qualified (lifelong coordinator who hadn't had a sniff of interest anywhere as a HC until we hired him). They fit in with the image VT wants, but they didn't show a serious commitment to winning. They were very risk averse hires - guys that you hope work out, and if they do they likely won't leave.
The VTAD institutionally just doesn't want to move on or know how to move on from the Beamer era. It's painfully obvious.
I just disagree. Pry's experience directly addressed our programs weaknesses:
There wasn't an option we would pay for who addressed both these pain points, and was a proven head whistle. So we prioritized these things. It was a creative hire with a sound thought process and high risk/uncertainty.
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but thought he many winning seasons/tournament bids at Wofford?
Overall I think Whit has made solid hires; keeping Robie to replace Dresser, Buzz, Mike Young, John Szefc, Pete Damour and Kristen Skiera all are top tier coaching hires. Not to mention getting Brooks to turn around the WBB program then replacing him with Duffy who seems to be a decent hire (time will tell). Football is king but at the time Fuente was the hottest name out there. Second go round, Pry gets the culture, he can recruit and at first glance seemed like a decent hire. Let's see if he makes those tough choices and does a keep-or-cull on his staff. If not, then Babcock needs to make some choices.
At the end of the day football and men's basketball is at their collective worst in a couple generations and that absolutely lands on Whit's feet.
Don't care that Fuente looked like a good hire at the time or that Pry and Young fit our culture the results we have right now are absolutely terrible and would be fireable for an AD at most schools in the country. And certainly for any school who actually cares.
I absolutely agree that Whit gave Fuente a year maybe two too many.
Like i said, if Pry doesn't make some major changes in the very near future then Whit needs to be on the hook and clean house
A MAJOR problem with Whit has been that he seemingly makes these, at the time of, great hires. But then he pretty much puts the machine on cruise control and sees how things play out. If he is demanding near perfection from the coaches, the staff, the money-raisers, then he is failing on 2 accounts:
To the 2nd point, I absolutely 100% am fucking sick of this way of running things. If you are a grown ass man/woman who can't take hard criticisms about how you are failing at your job, start packing. If your answer to the abysmal product you are creating is "Aww, shucks. Football is hard. We'll practice harder and hope for a better outcome next week!", start packing.
I have some lingering thoughts that Whit is hamstrung by Sands and / or the BOV. I've heard others say this in person, including tonight when drinking with 6 VT fans. No evidence of it, just a hunch.
I canceled my key play membership tonight, that makes me extremely sad.
I lasted through a couple years of Fuente apathy, have been defending Pry for the most part thinking he could turn this around...this performance radicalized and sealed something for me. We just looked...like a dead program. I'm unwilling to spend money, even adjacently to VT sports. One bonus that kept me here was recruiting news, I no longer care. I used to look at it as an inevitable stream of hope, done with that.
I will still root for the Hokies, but I'm going back to my last 2 Fuente years attitude where I do not watch us play anymore...I'll catch (or not at this point) highlights. I will hike, walk my dog, or do something else...my wife and I will be happier for it.
I expect to be downvoted since this will inevitably feel knee jerk (it's sadly not), that's fine. I really do appreciate and love this community, you all kept me here longer than I otherwise would have been..........Knowing exactly how some of you will post after a particular play, win, or loss, before you post has given me a sense of community, even though I don't know any of you personally.
Go Hokies (always)!
You are not alone.
I don't understand this logic - why are you taking out your frustrations with the team on a small business that is a completely separate organization?
Classic bar1990, love you brother.
Your framing is 100% off. I love Joe annd this community, so much that I let my membership recycle twice during Fuente years when I didn't want to pay.
You literally just posited that TheKeyPlay is, as a business, completely separate from Hokies...it's quite literally the opposite of what you say. It's built off of VT sports. It would not exist otherwise.
Still love you bar1990, and the rest of you!
I agree. I'm also puzzled by this logic. I'm not going to stop following VT (watching is a different story) and TKP is the place I do that. I prefer $84 to Joe than whatever the hell TSL/GC or whatever it is now charges to go into corporate pockets.
You do not understand this logic because YOU are not going to stop following VT, but I am stating that that is exactly what I am doing.
Will still root for, meaning I'm not going to change allegiances (that would be gross), but I am not going to watch or entertain this program anymore, in any form.
TKP was and always has been, outside of going to games, the place I spend money on VT sports. I resent bar1990's and your assumption that I will somehow defer my money away from small business to something else...my entire life has been the opposite of that, including professionally (not that you would know that)....i quite literally will not be spending time/resources on CFB in general
Agreed.
The fishing forum is worth the yearly subscription.
I don't fish, but this gets a leg 😊
I disagree, the Iditarod following is why I keep my subscription up.
Leg
Glad to be of service and people have enjoyed it.
I subscribe to TKP because it makes me laugh on a daily basis. It makes me laugh when we win, and it makes me laugh when we lose. And frankly, I appreciate TKP even more during the hard times of fandom, because that's when we can all come together and laugh together at our misery. Or scream about who needs to get fired. Either way, TKP makes it easier for me.
I literally came here first for the Hokie News, but stayed around because of the fishing forum. There's more going on here than Hokie sports, but I'll admit that if I didn't care about VT's sports teams, whichever catches your fancy, I'd not pay the $84 a year to be here. It became affordable for me after years of freeloading, but I am not lying when I say I can put $84 worth of groceries in a handbasket. TKP is a bargain.
I woke up to 4 people canceling. I mentioned in another thread earlier this year that some version of this has happened after each loss this season. People are checking out, I get it, because I have too. I watched 10 minutes of the game last night in favor of having a nice evening out. The grind of the last 10 years of covering a mediocre team, running this site, and yes, from the other side of the coin, dealing with the fallout of the fan base sucks. But it is what it is. Though at the end of the day I'm not sure people understand there won't be a TKP to check back in to. While it's easy enough for people to pull their $84, when it happens en masse, which is what is happening now, the business ain't going to recover. So yeah, I hope folks have enjoyed their time at Mike's Grille and enjoy Five Guys moving forward.
This is what sucks the most.
Trust me, I understand this. I don't want TKP to go.
If finances are an issue for you, I get it. If you're just so pissed about VT football that you have to detach completely to maintain your mental health... I guess I get it (though I would hope adults could regulate their emotions, but I digress)
But it seems in bad taste to announce it publicly. No need to slam the door on the way out.
Good point, not what I meant to do but I see it from your perspective, sorry for being kind of a jerk on the way out
Ugh. 😭😭😭
I mean, I know what our record is. But somehow it feels like we've lost every game this year.
Another very frustrating loss, but there were a handful of positives. Third string redshirt freshman QB looked for the most part prepared to play and offensive play calling wasn't overly conservative considering that situation. Tuten, Strong, and APR continue to put in good individual performances. The team did not give up despite critical injuries and about the worst possible start.
Very disappointed in how this season has turned out. I still see the makings of a team that could have performed much better than this, and just can't quite seem to put it together. I continue to think the best path forward would be to give Pry the chance to make staff changes, but that desperately needs to happen at the end of this season regardless of the outcome of the remaining game(s) to have any chance of maintaining a narrative of progress going into next season.
If no one is fired at the end of this season it's going to be increasingly difficult to have any confidence in Pry as coach or the AD as a whole.
I'll be shocked if there's not changes.
There's rumors that Marve has hired an agent which means he's planning on making moves. Other people saying he's trying to jump to the nfl.
Maybe the Jets will let him work the concession stand
Only if Rodgers liked him when he worked the stand at Lambeau.
That's encouraging to hear, but until it actually happens I'm still going to be anxious about the possibility there will be no changes. It might even be worse if the replacement hire is underwhelming, because it really feels like there will only be one chance to make the right hire before both Pry and Whit need to go, and it would be very VT to in this situation somehow bring in another first time coordinator with no experience.
This I agree with. This is Pry's one chance to correct the staff.
It's quite possible we're seeing a collapse in real time as coaches are "checking out." Marve may figure this is his last week in Blacksburg. Maybe Bowen too, idk. It's hard to buy in right now, but APR and Jennings balling out last night was great to see.
Unlikely. Those guys want to be hired again somewhere next year. Every game they coach is an audition tape. They're not quiet quitting.
Nobody is quiet quitting, but it's very natural to relax and/or allow distractions when heading out the door. Details get overlooked, no longer putting in that extra time and effort, less communicative, distraction of finding and setting up that next job, etc. It's just natural psyche and takes extra effort to maintain drive and focus.
Yes. We returned damn near the entire team this year and added a few transfer players. We needed the coaches to build on last year's momentum and continue to develop the players (and themselves). That hasn't happened. We're likely going to take a step back next year talent/experience-wise. Neglecting to make coaching staff changes will lead to a very disappointing 2025 and beyond. Need Pry and the AD to show they're serious about getting this rebuild back on track.
I have the same feeling. This staff clearly isn't developing players or coaching them up.
I'm not sure how you increase the talent level when you constantly shit the bed. What recruit wants to come here? We are so removed from our best years that kids only know us as a bumbling program. What portal player wants to come here? Will we even have a budget to make moves? I don't think our coaches can appropriately utilize the funds to address roster shortcomings.
Our program is just shit right now. I don't see progress happening at this point and I have little faith in Pry.
This is literally one of the things that Pry excels at.
Hard to agree with him excelling at anything when the team is 5-6.
Every single college team out there is bringing in new players via the portal every year. Is every coach excelling then? I would say the money we flashed was the deciding factor.
It'll be put to the test this offseason. He had momentum and money to spend last year. Completely different narrative at the moment.
The three best players on the team (Drones, APR and Tuten) - and the only two 1st-team All-ACC-caliber players on the team (APR and Tuten) - were portal players that Pry acquired. Those last two guys are better than any high school player we've recruited in maybe 10 years.
This is not true. Yes, everyone (except Clemson and the service academies) is using the transfer portal. Pry got three all ACC level players, and a very serviceable back up qb, and addressed other positions of need.
The issue isn't talent acquisition from the portal; it's talent deployment of all players.
I'll agree that he brought in a couple of solid contributors. He had something to sell: be part of the rebuild.
I don't think we have the same optics now. Which brings me back to the original point: will he still be able to convince players to come here when the program isn't trending in the right direction.
Come be a part of the rebuild of the rebuild! VT 2025: This Time We're Serious!
Nah, nah, nah. We've gotta steal the tagline from the NBA commercial we had shoved down our throats in last night's game:
"VT 2025: This time it's different!"
That commercial being replayed a bazillion times was soooooo annoying
It's the Penn State B staff. And the A staff was already underachieving given their talent
As much as it sucked watching us find new ways to lose, I actually quite enjoyed the game. At least this one was entertaining and Pop looked damn good operating the offense tonight despite his lack of experience - it might be fun just to watch him develop if he chooses to stay for next season.
The worst part is that this isn't a given!
Well, it kinda has been for 20 years.
"Kinda" isn't good enough.
I seem to remember an 'L' in there, somewhere. This is Jack's vulnerable adrenal gland.
So here's the problem with just letting Pry reshuffle the deck this Offseason-- look at his hires:
-Marve - totally underqualified, inexperienced and the worst unit on D is the position he coached...zero recruiting impact
-Bowen - equally inexperienced, trying to pass himself off as a QB Coach, at best he is inconsistent as playcaller
-Cheetah - big game on social media..inherited 2 solid CBs and both are at best static from when he took over
-Prioleau - zero development of Safties, not much of a recruiter
-Quinn - does something....not real clear what
-Crooks - took over bad OL, also zero progress. Failed to find anyone even serviceable in the Portal.
-Mines- stellar recruiter, very questionable how impactful he is as position coach
Price - maybe the most balanced but average overall.
Rudolph, Glenn - both hightailed out-of-town ASAP...maybe was a warning sign.
So we're going to improve the team by letting a Pry swing as miss more wildly on some more coaches??? That's the plan here? Or Whit will get more oversight and input??--well, that's comforting
Seems to me that the guy is proven that he doesn't have the aptitude to make Smart coaching decisions either in the Personnel he surrounds himself with or on Gameday itself.
He's the Problem
I agree Pry's staff hires and key in game coaching decisions have not been good enough and I wouldn't be upset if he were fired at this point. My main arguments in favor of retaining Pry are:
1. I think he frequently says exactly the right things and could possibly develop into an elite face of a program
2. He appears to have implemented an effective recruiting strategy with both high schools in the region and the transfer portal, while managing the challenging NIL situation
3. There appears to be a very positive team culture with players coming back to play for the team and not giving up during games
I think it would be likely for a new head coach to be a downgrade in those areas and the best chance for VT right now would be for Pry to surround himself with a more experienced staff. I think his first round of staff hires perhaps too heavily prioritized existing relationships and recruiting ability and there needs to be some added focus on player development, game planning, and in game adjustments.
Yea, this is where I'm at. I can see a path forward for Pry. I felt the same way about Fuente until 2020, and I was late.
But if Pry was fired at the end of the season, I wouldn't be pissed. I would assume if we did such a thing that our finances would be in order.
Here's why Pry gets to reshuffle: Hiring a new HC without an AD is impossible and not smart., you don't give an AD another chance after this many failings at important coaching roles. Our only hop Pry is gone is whit is fired, Pry cleans house and is forced to improve or be fired by the new guard in the next season.
Can I just say we lost 7 seconds by not calling a timeout before the 2 minute mark in the 4th. We lost the time of that play that took ot to 1:53.
We lost wayyyy more than 7 seconds there. Using the 2 minute time out the way Pry did is a fine strategy because you get all your timeouts to run your normal offense, use the run to keep the defense guessing. The problem is we then decided to just bomb the ball down field with plenty of time and 3 timeouts.
My point is that the clock stops at 2 min no matter what, so by letting it run to the 2 minutes and calling a timeout after, we lost the time of the play and had 1:53 and 2 TOs left. If he calls TO before the 2 min we have 2 min and 2 TOs left
It was 38 seconds. As TKP's nominated time manager, lol, I started calling timeouts at 2:38. [sadly, Pry couldn't hear me from my great room]
When it comes to clock management...seriously...Pry is an idiot. At 2:38 he had 4 clock stops available. By making the 2:00 stop the first one instead of the last, he pissed away 38 seconds. If you get the stop, you get the ball with about a 1:50 and no TO's, needing only a FG for OT. Knowing how much time would be left, you might even sucker Diaz into passing to try to get a first down.
it's ok Dave, you did all you could
I did. I just don't think Pry appreciates the hard work I put in. : )
I think you need a better comms system.
He definitely needs the in-game clock management advice.
my tin can/string setup may need an upgrade
"That's something we need to look at."
that's perfect, lmao +++
I guess in fairness, Pry's end of game management wasn't as incomprehensible as Dillingham at ASU (tho he did win). Leading by 5 with second and goal at BYU's 3, he managed to give BYU a Hail Mary shot to win from midfield, without a turnover or making a great play. And without the benefit of BYU really doing anything strategic at all other than calling their last 2 timeouts in the last few seconds. Not an easy feat but he managed to do it.
Exactly - our coaches and math aren't a thing. Clearly there is a problem.
As much as I hate this result, I have to point out that we were on our third string quarterback, and he looked pretty good, all things considering (mostly that we have a very leaky offensive line). None of our backup QBs are one-dimensional.
Duke looks un-exceptional, but they're a solid football team. No, we shouldn't expect to lose to them two years in a row. And yes, pry needs to have a look in the mirror and figure out why he can't win a close game. And yes, I didn't capitalize the 'p' in pry because capital letters are earned, not given. He can have a capital letter back if he beats UVa next week, and wins whatever low-hanging bowl he gets awarded. He needs to break out the NIL checkbook and buy some Offensive Line for next year. If he'd had one this year, he may have been able to convert some of that talent on the team this year into wins.
The one thing I can't really explain is why our cornerbacks are SOOOOOOO out of position on some plays. If they didn't absolutely get burned on some plays (read wide freaking open), seems to me VT wins that game. Am I missing something?
I'm frustrated like everyone else, but I agree with you. It's remarkable we were as close as we were with our 3rd-string QB. And as I said above, we had 2 cornerbacks fall down and give up 14 free points. Not get burned. Fall down.
And Duke is better than people want to admit. This is their 3rd straight 8+ win season. They are 16-8 the last two seasons, and 6 of those 8 losses have been to ranked teams. If we had Duke's resume the last two seasons, this board would be pretty happy.
The fact that we are comparing what we could be record wise to what Duke actually is record wise is the most depressing statement ever written about the current state of our program.
That may be, and I get it, but that's largely a function of the fact that Duke has a pretty good football program right now.
They are 25-12 the last 3 seasons, and may very well win 10 games this year. Let's at least be honest with the facts.
Duke beat FSU on their 3rd QB, NC State on their 3rd QB, Virginia Tech on their 3rd QB, and UNC and Mack Brown on his last brain cell as he had a 20 point lead and failed to run clock in second half. Those are their four ACC wins. Their best win was probably over now 7-4 UConn. It's the only team they beat with more than 6 wins.
Yeah don't get fooled by Duke. They have mastered the soft OOC scheduling to get them a decent win total every year now. Not saying they are awful, but they also aren't great by any stretch. They basically gifted the game to us with so many turnovers and we are so pathetic we couldn't do much with it.
Duke managed to lose to SMU with a +6 turnover margin.
Duke played like crap last night and still beat us. Diaz laughed about how terrible his team looked in the postgame.
What you said about who they are is absolutely correct. And yet it makes us look so much worse in comparison
Agreed
I'm not saying they're Georgia or Ohio State. But just like you can only make excuses for losing for so long before you accept the fact you are a losing program, it goes the other way too. Duke is a winning program right now, that's a statement of fact.
So how are they doing it with a first year coach? How did Mike Elko do it in a couple of years?
Glad I got to experience the Beamer era run, where our players and coaches just wanted and expected more against the likes of Duke!
All evidence suggests that we should have won this game. Massive TOP advantage, TO advantage, yards and first downs. Just not points.
If only we were awarded four points for winning TOP.
In my heart, we do
Or if our secondary hadn't gone brain dead on a handful of plays
A million times this.
Takes a lot to overcome the gifts they gave.
Yes - 2 back breaking broken coverages by veteran players. That's mental. That's preparation. But to me- that's only part of it. We had no protection to the point that we are back to just running the qb to get a numbers advantage. The OL flat couldn't block in the 4th quarter. We stunk on defense and OL. Stunk. It wasn't about Pop or anything else. We couldn't block Duke. Look at the root cause not the result - piss poor OL talent and depth, mental weakness and lack of prep on D- those are constant this year. If Tuten doesn't have career days we are fucked because we can't pass block like a P5 school. When we need a defensive stop, we never fucking get one. Root causes are why we didn't improve this year and why we are all pissed. Fix the big shit not the little shit
Man imagine being a UVA fan that's watched the VT the past 3 weeks and being a 7.5pt dog
If you're a UVa fan you stopped watching already.
For a fan base that didn't even cover the scholarship bill with donations until 2016 I'm not sure how we can realistically shake the money tree to do what needs to be done from top down in terms of athletic department, coaching, facilities in all sports to keep Tech in the top 3rd in "all sports" that we all hope to see long term.
So since we are poor and have no money, we are done as a winning football program? It's just luck now if we are competitive against fucking Duke? Glad that's cleared up. We are poor. Can't and won't win. That settles it.
Didn't you just say recently that you'd canceled your own donations?
Let's be clear for a second.
We have 25k HC donors, thousands more than at the school we like to hold up as the gold standard of giving, Clemson's IPTAY. Our problem isn't the number of donors that we have, it's that the wealthiest donors aren't carrying their weight like we need in order to keep up. While Clemson has only 23k donors to our 25k, they pull in $44m annually to our $26m. Our top donors want and expect the country club experience on a minivan budget, and until we start getting the actual big money, there's nothing we can do, and it's not worth blaming us regular donors for anything. The regular Joe's are doing their part.
Spot on. Everyone touts the IPTAY as the greatest thing ever in athletics fundraising, but it's smoke and mirrors. Rule 1 of major fundraising - it's better to spend time and resources on attracting a bunch of reliable big fish than many small time donors who can't commit more than annually. Clemson's IPTAY is a means of more casual fan engagement to make them feel important, but primarily to foster fundraising for students/recent grads so they give more in the future. Clemson's bread and butter, like every other big program, are their big heavy hitter donors. We struggle in that department mightily. We don't have enough of those people, and the ones we do have don't realize they need to pony up if they are serious about winning.
Iptay Hokie club what the fuck ever. Clemson football fucking wins. They beat us like a drum the last 15 years. They win acc titles they win national fucking titles. So yes let's copy Clemson please.
We got the part right of finally expanding the Hokie Club and getting more small donors/students. Think we could do more there, but we have struggled in getting more out of our big donors and attracting new big fish, other than Mehul who has been amazing. A lot of our long time big fish have a mentality of entitlement and looking at their cumulative giving IMO rather than being told, if you want to compete against and beat Clemson, you're going to need to give more than you have. We've attempted to compete in this new landscape on the old Beamer mentality budget largely.
It's not that the top donors aren't doing their part. It's that we don't have the top donors. We don't have those $1M donations to build off. Most of those are the old schoolers who were very happy with Frank winning 10 games and the bowl streak (no matter how bad our OC was and how much better we could have been). Others don't see the return for going way up in their levels because we cannot make up the gap in NIL and conference payouts. They aren't reaching into their pockets to fund buyouts (especially since we are still funding the last one).
We need more small to mid-donors and the small donors to reach up a level. Start pressuring the levels of those top donors. Dropping out won't make the problem better. I've said other places it's not like we have a pot of money sitting around and are saving it for a rainy day. We have to pick and choose how we allocate (like MBB/WBB taking a hit for FB...which is what the fans clambered for...and now are complaining about).
Yeah Stiney and winning 10 games and acc titles really sucked. We should hire a big time offensive guy much better than Stiney - like a Justin Fuente and all will be good. The only thing holding Bud back is Beamer and Stiney. Give Bud an "offensive" mind and we will win national titles. Lmfao. Turns out frank Beamer is not a clown and knew how to fucking WIN games against dogshit acc teams. Funny. I long for beating the shit out of Duke with shitty Stinespring
My point was if the donors had pressured Frank to make changes (our offense was bottom of the 1-A ranks), we could have been playing for and potentially winning NCs. That would have raised our brand and generating a lot of income. Frank wasn't seen as a clown...he was given a lifetime contract.
It's a different game now and those donors are still playing the old one. They don't believe make changes will make things better.
Worth also noting that we were out-fundraising Clemson until their 2015 NC appearance. Which is wild to think.
Cancelled my season tickets and scholarship fund donation level that kept them at Golden Hokie, yep. But we will keep donating to specific sports like softball, women's basketball, yearly and sport specific or project specific when requested when the athletic department makes a good presentation that the need is real.
Oh, the need is real in football.
And yet the athletic department doesn't have a plan. We flounder around about facilities, 2 two different NIL collectives, etc. there is no long or even medium planning. Do we have plans to endow coaching positions? Upgrade facilities? Invest in fan Gameday experience?
Arent we down to a single collective now that Triumph obtained Commonwealth?
It clears up the differences but I expect it makes things harder on the basketball players and most of the non rev sport athletes as most of those were under Commonwealth and now will be second fiddle at Triumph.
We still have The Hokie Way. I think it just feeds triumph, but it's still overly complicated IMO.
the good thing is that that's for the top to figure out. We increased YOY income for the past like 5 or 6 years right and the outcome as fan experience and winning have been stagnant if not negative.
It's their job to raise money and spend it in the right place and right now they're absolutely failing.
So there are legal frameworks about where certain donations can be used. For example when you donate X amount to reach a certain level to get the football tickets you want the vast majority of that donation can ONLY be spent on scholarships through the Hokie Club. Our issue for the last 40 years has been the Hokie Club, Athletic department and yes even Frank Beamer did an awful job of marketing, expansion and explaining all of this.
Right - something every other p5 team has figured out but us.
Debt, increased student fees, rich individual donors or small group of donors, luck of geography or historical quirk that means most people in a given state support the program and in a small few cases finding generational talents to take them to the promised land either coaches or players.
I'm tired of looking for moral victories. Win or get lost. For this staff (and athletic department), it's tike to get lost. I'm just terribly apathetic about VT sports right now and see no reason to get more invested unless serious changes are made. I get that money has to be donated to make change, but I see no evidence that my money would be used in that way, so I can't bring myself to donate.
Pretty much where I am.
Pry needs to be gone if our goal is to win and compete at any meaningful level and that's clearly going to take $$.
But donating money to Whit, Ballein and the utter mess that is VT Athletics right now is totally illogical.
I doubt VT Administration has the stomach to perform the Roto-rooter on the Athletic Dept that is needed.
It's pretty depressing at this point.
Pry has now mismanaged the final two minutes of the first half in FIVE out of six of our losses. And in all five the decision making cost the Hokies a shot at at least 3 points or allowed our opponent to get an additional 3 points. In all five games that cascading error led directly to the loss.
Let that sink in.
At Vanderbilt, Double Zeroes gave the Commodores three points. Three points would have meant no overtime and a Hokies win with no other changes.
Rutgers game, Pry allowed 19 seconds to go off the clock between 1st and 2nd down so when Tuten sprinted 30 yards to move the Hokies to mid-field, there wasn't enough time to try for 10/15 more yards to get a FG attempt. Went to halftime with two timeouts remaining I believe.
Miami game: Managed to get our own FG but Pry makes the bone headed decision to call timeout with 25 seconds remaining rather than let the clock run down to 3 seconds before kicking it. Miami proceeds to get a FG to end the half. With those three points, at the end we don't need a Hail Mary, another FG would have won it. If he didn't also throw away three points in the 3rd Qtr going for it on 4th and Goal, Hokies could have kneeled out the game.
Syracuse Game: Pry decides to take a ten second run off and not use his TWO remaining timeouts with the ball at the Hokies 46. A FG would have prevented overtime and given the Hokies another win.
Duke game: TWO possessions in plus territory both within John Loves long of 57 yards and fail to attempt a FG. Hokies lose by three.
If they aren't going to fire him, they need to mandate he be put in a VR simulator that creates opportunity/coaching challenges just like these and other common two minute drill coaching decisions and have a way to grade his performance. Make it an hour a day until he reaches whatever is deemed a 90% performance. Reduce it to three hours a week at that point. Coaches expect the players to practice two minute drills. We should expect coaches to practice two minute execution decision making.
Chris Coleman made a good point about Pry recently...he's in his mid-50's and had been coaching 20+ years, the idea that he is suddenly gonna figure it out is kind of ludicrous.
As fans, we have had this hope that all the pieces are gonna come together, but they aren't.
Pry isn't a good Head Coach. It's not getting better, now or at any point in the future.
You either fire him now or can't complain when we lose winnable games over and over because that's who he is
1-12 in one score games gets you fired literally everywhere else. It shows you that the team is close to being competitive but can't close. That's on the head coach. The clown the LA chargers recently fired was the same thing - awful in one score games.
0-5 this year alone.
This should have been an 8-4 team at worst.
They have been coached into jeopardy to even make the fuckin Bahamas Bowl.
You can give Pry more talent, it will only be matched by increasing levels of mismanagement.
He's a Lame Duck at this point, whether we want to admit it or not.
Disgrace. Even the most optimistic "well we are close"... goes out the window when you actually watch the games. If you caught the byu asu game yesterday you saw that a head coach can absolutely lose you a game on his own. Dillingham nearly lost because him and him alone miscounted the seconds/time left in the game with an assinine strategy at the end. It matters and pry us fucking awful at it.
If I did the quick math correctly all of our losses add up to just a 29 point differential. Crazy to think that many more points and we could be undefeated but based on the eye test that is clearly the most ludicrous shit I've ever heard.
I got this text this morning:
It's us, we're the one. Also have a -46 point 3rdQ scoring differential in the last 5 games.
"-46 point 3rdQ scoring differential in the last 5 games." - Coaches like the fucking Duke coaching staff actually make adjustments... we don't.
Just this year, right?
and with 160 seconds left in the game and 4 clock stops remaining, his first move is to delete 25% of it (i.e., the time)
As much as I like Pry this is so frustrating.
His inability to see the bigger picture of the game. He's confusing tactics for strategy.
I don't know, to me this seems like the easiest part of the game. I have no idea what defense or offense to call based on what I'm seeing, save an obvious one here or there. But plan a game out?? No idea.
But I do know I could manage a dang game in terms of timeouts, fg's, time on clock, etc.
So frustrating.
I dont know what they have for coaches to continue to learn and all that. Hopefully he reviews his decisions after the games as well.
IF we can't afford to buy out Pry and IF he doesn't fire underperforming coaches, Whit MUST pull rank and hire an analyst that stays on top of this shit in games. Notice how Saban had his OC's on the sideline as opposed to the booth? Their job was to RUN the offense- meaning call timeout when the formation is fucked, save time for 2 minute drives, etc. We need an experienced coach standing right next to Pry helping him keep track of this shit. IF we have that guy now, then he fucking sucks and should be fired and is easily replaceable.
I am in the camp that something must be done ASAP (as possible) just to improve the program (as opposed to saving it, which seems like a bridge too far at the moment), and I am now thinking that "something" needs to be far more than replacing one coordinator.
It starts with demanding you win the games you are supposed to win. Period. Start there. Beat fucking Purdue Marshall
Rutgers Vandy cuse - you know dogshit teams . Do that first . Then actually improve
I'm not sure why we think changing coaches will turn us into some sort of contender. I don't think any team has figured out the NIL/Transfer Portal landscape yet. It chased Saban away from the game and it'll likely lead to other coaches leaving. Every coach that has been mentioned as "sure things" over the last 10 years have ended up being busts as head coaches. Chad Morris...gone, Tom Herman...gone, Napier..disappointing and probably gone soon, etc. Teams with all the money in the world are relative disappointments (Texas A&M, Alabama, Michigan, etc). In my opinion, this is because nobody can build and retain talent anymore. The big names can't horde talent anymore, and smaller names can't rely on stars staying. The roster changes every single year.
With regards to Pry, we may be disappointed with the Pry's time management but I'm not sure paying him an exit fee and then going after another unproven assistant does anything for us. Especially when we're going to be limited to assistants that have strong ties to the DMV region for that candidate search.
Pry has to cut Marve and probably get himself a real assistant head coach (we gave this to Mines to keep him but he adds nothing from a head coach support perspective). Pry wont go anywhere for a few years. I don't necessarily mind that. He's not Saban. We all know that. Saban is also not walking through those doors.
As for Whit, I know it comes down to wins or losses but he's bringing in more money than we ever had, he's got a bunch of the non-rev sports to be expectation worthy which is something we've never had. Our biggest basketball accomplishments before Whit was was an A10 championship in the 90s...it's not like we've ever been world beaters there. We have an ACC title and multiple madness appearances now. Football hasn't produced but Fuente was a "home run hire" when Whit brought him here, Pry wasn't a big name but the football alumni and high school network love him so not sure we're going to be able to replace that easily.
Anyhow, I was prepared for a rebuilding couple of seasons and this season hasn't convinced me that we're awful or that we're good. I figured it would take 5 years to rebuild the recruiting network and also get depth of some kind. I have no idea if it should be less or more than that given the portal and NIL.
I think you're right.
A winning record and some progress this year would have helped with all of that, but losing a handful of games by one score hurts pry's ability to sell the case.
Welp. If nothing else, the results from the end of the season might make the off-season interesting.
I really really hope we beat uva. I think we can. I also think we could just as easily piss it away and lose in embarrassing fashion.
I'll be very curious what kinda decisions (if any) Pry makes in the off-season after a 6-6 (or, possibly, 5-7) campaign. Especially after saying that anything short of a conference championship appearance would be disappointing (can we just take a moment to laugh at how ridiculous that sounds now?)
I've seen enough to know that this football program isn't going to be better than about .500 without significant changes. Expectations are officially reset for me. 4-6 wins for the foreseeable future. I can live with that knowing that anything more is just unrealistic.
The horrifying reality of being torn about the UVA game because on the one hand screw UVA let's beat them every year for eternity lol, but on the other hand if we lose it's probably our best shot of a coaching shakeup....
Still not worth it.
No. Not torn. Beat the ever living piss out them every single time
I don't know if there will be coaching changes. I don't think the outcome of the uva game will determine whether or not we see them.
Plus, without firing Pry, any coaching change is going to be reliant on Pry going out and hiring a new cosch and his track record there is spotty, at best
Seriously, if money is tight, we're not in the position to pay buyouts. I'd rather have the money for a replacement staff, if and when that happens.
My hope is that we win against UVa and win our piss-ant bowl game against some 7-5 Sun Belt or MAC team, but that the final scores are something like 47-45 (with us blocking a UVa field goal on the last play after our defense let them move right down the field to the 20 yard line in the last 40 seconds) and then 45-38. We win the games but the defense plays like garbage so that it is clear many changes have to be made on that side of the ball.
Definitely not hoping we lose. And I freely admit, I was wanting us to lose every game near the end of the Fuente years because he totally had to go and we would not get rid of him. Still think Pry can be successful here if he has better people around him.
I still want to beat the brakes off UVA and I think we can if the DL gets after colander again. I'm hoping we can have the firings announced before championship weekend so we can start searches and use the bowl to assess the underclassmen.
That is quite the needle to thread. I hope it happens that way, but I'm not sure how likely that is.
Biggest concern is winning the next two and the administration saying we turned a corner.
It's clear we haven't turned any corner, with or without a UVa/bowl win.
Amen- any win over UVA- an ugly late FG like we needed to beat fucking clown London in lane stadium, a bonehead mistake like Mendenhall made to gift us the game, or a blow out like last year- we see what that meant for momentum- any win over them signals nothing to me. What is more likely is that Elliott is more prepared than Pry and they catch us napping a couple times and the game comes down to the end where Pry is 1-12 as a head coach. That's the likely scenario.
Yeah i feel ya. I think if we end up 7-6 then unfortunately we won't see any coaching turnover because they'll be able to lean on injury excuses and how "we were just one healthy Drones/Tuten away from being like 10-2" or something lol
Yea but that's just not true. They lost 3 games to Vandy, Rutgers, and Miami due to poor in-game coaching decisions. Then even with the injuries we lost to Syracuse due to more poor in-game coaching decisions. I want the VT administration to show me they are serious about football and hold the coaches accountable. Something has to change or we should just accept the fact that 5-7 is our floor and 7-5 is our ceiling as a program.
Sorry I just reread that and hopefully it doesn't come off like I'm attacking you. I'm attacking the athletic department
I had a really tough time watching that game. Some guys played really well. Jennings showed out. Peebles and Lawson had terrific moments. The defense defended the run well.
But it isn't cohesion, and the damndest thing... you can see players who have had some success in Blacksburg drop off in performance and effort. I can't blame Delane for the first touchdown, but his pursuit looked lackluster all night. Kaden Moore, after having a terrific game versus BC, has regressed badly. I break down the offensive line in pass pro in my film review, but there are also a lot of plays where they make initial contact and turn and watch. Nobody on the OL group looks frustrated or is challenging their teammates. I know there is a balance/going to far (see Hoffman, Brock), but do something. And the fact that nobody is pushing the top guys is even more damning.
I watched a ton of Penn State film when Pry was hired. I have never seen single high safeties doing some of the things VT's high safeties do. And then Reddish didn't even get a snap, even when Jones (who had his worst game in a long time) went out. I can't explain it. Strong is trying to do too much, while Delane looked like he is going through the motions. Lovett got shoved down once, and slipped once leading to 14 points.
I hate calling for coaches to be let go because we don't know what is being taught, but I don't know how any one of the defensive staffers could be retained at this point except maybe JC Price. And I don't have any idea who could be a new DC unless Pry took over defensive signal calling.
Offensive line- we are back to Curt Newsome levels of buffoonery. And in light of his health condition, I don't say that lightly. Wrong first steps, slow on snap count, not setting protections, not communicating on high school stunts. It isn't defensible, even if continuity is important. You have to get better talent at that position that can execute. Otherwise, no QB is going to have success. Tuten is a special talent, the best back since David Wilson (13 years now folks), and he has been wasted behind this offensive line. If he was running behind the 2020 OL, he would finish eligibility as a Hokies legend.
Pry is struggling enough now with game/clock management without DC play calling duties. I can't imagine him being able to take that back over as he did in 2022 or be the de facto DC while also struggling with the HC game management stuff. Short of convincing Bud to come out of retirement, I think he's going to have to abandon this scheme if he wants to try and salvage his job. He needs to go get a good DC and allow them to bring in their own assistants. This hodge podge of guys who never really worked together before but all have some connection to Pry just isn't cohesive or working. On D or O.
Scathing indictment.
I was actually embarrassed watching our OL yesterday. Pop was out there showing some real promise but we just couldn't keep him upright. Given, he should have thrown the ball away a few times but the pass pro was absolutely wretched.
I think multiple times each game about how much we are going to miss him next year. He's been a treat to watch and he's going to leave quite a vacuum in the backfield.
https://x.com/kolby_crawford/status/1860804762205134916?s=46
Someone embed please.
Pop had an average of 3.4 seconds to throw. 123/126 P4 QBs with 18+ dropbacks.
Inexplicably depth of target was actually pretty deep (11 yards) despite him never having time
Sometimes I fall asleep at night imaging Tuten running behind a pulling Wyatt Teller
In the 4th quarter the duke defense whipped our OL's asses all over the field- no sugar coating. They got their asses kicked by Duke. Fire someone.
we are frustrated. lets not act like we are having an oklahoma st season though
we are frustrated. lets not act like we are having an
oklahomaFlorida st season thoughFTFY
2025 VT could face challenges similar to Florida State this year. A significant portion of our starters will need to be replaced, either internally or through the transfer portal, and retaining our top players with eligibility remaining will be tough.
If Coach Pry doesn't deliver a transformative offseason in the portal, the program could be in serious trouble. Honestly, part of me feels it might be better to lose to UVa next week. Skipping a bowl game could allow the coaching staff to focus entirely on rebuilding through the portal for 2025.
i had a whole rant typed up but it was all over the place and I decided to start fresh. In summary:
I think it's easy to blame ESPN and the NCAA, but the nationalization of the sport plays the biggest factor for VT in particular:
In the past, schools could build a moat around their program where they could sneak good players in and they could never leave until they graduated/were drafted. That's no longer possible - no more building rosters on "diamonds in the rough," and no more trapping players in your program (forgive the negative connotation; just saying it for what it is).
Despite this, my hot take is that the playing field is more level than it has been in over a quarter century.
First of all, the path to program improvement is clearer than it's ever been:
Now, all you need is money - One big booster, one successful startup founder, etc. This is why former G5 powers like Fresno, Southern Miss, Boise, etc. were never able to get a place in a power conference. Now Boise has a clear (not easy, but clear) path to a championship: Just spend more and spend smarter.
But also - just look at what we're seeing:
Because of NIL/Transfer Portal, the traditional powers aren't able to stockpile talent. They're hurting for depth.
I also have an unproven hypothesis that Offensive Line play is on the decline everywhere because (due to portal/NIL) there's way less depth at any school - and this is going to result in (a) more parity, (b) more opportunities for defenses, and (c) forcing more creative offensive play design.
Anyways, circling back to VT in particular... our moat is gone:
There's just no market inefficiency for us to capitalize on any more. We don't have favored-nation status over G5 teams, we can't keep recruits secret from other schools, we're (apparently) cheap... When I look at the situation, I don't think 'the forces around us are conspiring to keep us down' - rather, I think 'wow we capitalized on a small period of time, and now we're regressing towards our mean because we thought we could rest on laurels"
Good post.... also there is a moat around Virginia, but it's not VT getting the talent. It's Penn State or UNC. No different than 30 years ago- hudl, etc. Penn State has no issue walling off recruiting territory now. And 2- while I wish the blue bloods were down, there will be 5 fucking SEC teams in a 12 team playoff this year, so nah... bluebloods still as blue as ever.
Yeah I tend to agree here. PSU, UNC, and Clemson have basically gotten whoever they wanted from VA in recent years. They are all regional mid-Atlantic/southeast schools. There is always the opportunity now for a VA kid to go anywhere in the country, but by and large many college kids make decisions on a somewhat regional basis as far as proximity to home/family. VT just isn't seen as a regional power anymore compared to those schools (UNC is fading fast I will grant you).
Point well taken – we are moving in the direction where instead of all the advantages being focused on about 15-20 schools (8 Blue Bloods and 12ish of the new rich), we're going to see a path for 30 or so SEC and Big Ten schools to become competitive at the highest level. Then there might be 5 to 10 other schools that can reasonably compete.
So the upper echelon of the sport is growing by 50-100%, the size of what is now the G5 is going to balloon by about a third (from 70ish teams to ~100 teams), and there's not really going to be a middle tier left; after all, there's not much separating Virginia Tech, Louisville, NC State, Texas Tech, Baylor, TCU, etc. from, Boise, State, Tulane, southern mass, Fresno State, JMU, Georgia State, State, Georgia Southern, etc - it's just money in the bank now.
however, I think that will change once again when the house settlement is finalized. There will be a very clear demarcation of schools that can afford the 20 million, in schools that cannot. VT may not be in the SEC or Big Ten, but we will be able to afford the house payments.
Maybe 30 years ago I would be on board with this thinking, but VT is no longer a small regional school, its a major university with over 50k students (grad and undergrad combined) and campuses all across the state pumping alumni into some of the most financially ludicrous job sectors out there. There's absolutely no excuse for us to be this consistently terrible in the revenue sports. With better leadership, this doesn't happen.
From top to bottom VT athletics, when it comes to supporting the one sport that should be driving our revenue streams to pay for everything else, is utterly incompetent. It really is no more complex than that, we are incompetent, and we like to pretend that incompetence is not in play by bringing up a litany of excuses to blame literally everything but ourselves to why we can't turn it around.
I'm not saying this should be our attitude - I'm saying this has been our attitude since the early aughts.
It's really easy to find problems, but really hard to fix them. That's not an endorsement or forgiveness of anyone in our athletic department. Just a reality.
The VTAD unfortunately just hasn't evolved or grown in concert with VT the university. VT academically seems to be on a major growth trajectory with some really innovative minds leading the charge and has significantly increased fundraising. VTAD seems to have dead cat smell in Merryman and a lot of legacy holdovers who are only used to doing things the 90s/early 2000s way under the Beamer blueprint. And Whit hasn't been a strong enough AD to get everyone rowing in the same direction and on the same trajectory as the university as far as growth. No one has been putting enough pressure on the VTAD IMO - the major athletics donors are comfortable, don't want to/don't see the need to give much more and like their perks and VIP treatment more than winning apparently; the university side has largely seemed to defer to the AD and other leadership there, not taken a more hands on approach.
Seeing our way out of this mess is going to be a litmus test for Sands. We hear he cares a lot about athletics. I'm not saying he has to micromanage or even personally care for sports that much, but he should want a VTAD that is working toward excellence in lock step with the academic side.
I think it's just the opposite. Most of the heavy donors are from the time when Beamer was there...as a STUDENT. They are the ones putting pressure on VTAD to keep things similar and NOT rock the boat tremendously.
I'm fine with it being separate. The funding is different, the donors are different, the focus on the sutdent and/or athlete is different. They don't have to be in lock step.
And just focusing on 1 sport (football) and ignoring all others is short sighted. Look at the strides made in track and field, women's soccer, women's basketball, and I'm sure I'm missing a few of the other ones too. Point being there are many sports trending in the an upward direction, in lock step as you say, with the academics.
My opinion, when it comes to this, is that football by far has the biggest ROI for us, so if there is a place to, at least for now, put all our eggs in one basket, it should be football. We get that program back to where it should be, where we expect it to be, with competitive teams that are at least challenging and in the mix for an ACC championship game spot every year, and we'll be bringing in enough money to fund everything else. And if we get VT back to the level that it was in the 1995-2010 range where we were perennially ranked in the Top 15 getting loads of press, regularly highlighted on GameDay, invited to big games, included on national marketing campaigns, etc, then we'll have enough money to increase our funding elsewhere two-fold.
But we can't do that if the football program is crap. Thats when our well runs dry and everything else dies in the drought.
Agree here. VT isn't like UVA or UNC where we have a ton of donors funding and endowing the non-revs. Those sports are almost entirely dependent on the success of football for funding. You have to focus on football first and foremost since that drives the entire AD at VT.
Oregon may not be a traditional blue blood but with NIKE money flooding in every season they have the financial freedom to buy an entire roster every year.
Oregon has 14 transfer players on its 2024 football team and many of these players have locked down starting jobs and played key roles for the Ducks this season. I believe it's 10 starters and the other four in the two-deep.
Peyton Woodyard: Safety from Alabama
Derrick Harmon: Defensive lineman from Michigan State
Dillon Gabriel: Quarterback from Oklahoma
Evan Stewart: Receiver from Texas A&M
Jabbar Muhammad: Cornerback from Washington
Dante Moore: Quarterback from UCLA
Matthew Bedford: Offensive lineman from Indiana
Jay Harris: Running back from Northwest Missouri State
Kobe Savage: Safety from Kansas State
Ja'Maree Caldwell: Defensive lineman from Houston
Kam Alexander: Cornerback from UTSA
Brandon Johnson: Cornerback from Duke
Atticus Sappington: Kicker from Oregon St
Cruz Rushing: Safety from Arizona
Pry has honestly done pretty well in the portal. Tuten, APR, Peebles. Jennings was a bit of a whiff-ish but I think that's in large part from his injury.
Yes, he has "net" won thus far because Fuente's small soft 2 star recruits are the comparison. Canteen might be the only decent portal guy we lost. So its a net win. If Drones never plays another down for us- I'm not calling that some great portal "get". APR was a great get, Peebles- yes desperately needed him.
we've had replacements emerge at his position group and he was a diva and maybe more of a headache than he was worth, but Dae'Quan Wright was also a decent contributor we lost
No, no, a thousand times NO. It will never be better to lose to UVA. Some of us have to live in the same state as those entitled assholes, and we definitely do not deserve their gloating and crowing for an entire year.
^^^^^this^^^^^
Maybe I am in the minority, but I am not really surprised of the incompetence on the field and record for this season. Sure we should expect to see growth/maturity from players (and coaches) year over year but we brought back 90-95% of an average 6-6 team, including majority of coaching staff, from last year. Also, beating a dwindled Tulane team should not have given anyone more hope for the next season IMO after watching the 2023 season as a whole.
Did we have the individual talent (Tuten, APR, etc.), sure... but again, we brought back almost all of what most people would say is an average, to above average team at best. Yea I'm pissed about how this season turned out. Yea I always have hope going into every new season. But no I am not surprised this is how it ultimately turned out. IMO this shouldn't be too much of a shock to others.
I have beaten this drum a million times but prior to the season, I did not "love" our talent- especially on the lines and at LB. I DID however hope we would improve on beating dogshit teams, which of course we did not. We failed my only personal metric. Don't lose to fucking Syracuse and Rutgers because they fucking suck. And I was proven right. Duke fucking sucks too, and their coach laughed at how bad they played but still won. Pry fucked my one metric this year, so yeah I'm pissed. I fucking hate losing to dogshit ACC teams. But now ACC fans say that when VT beats their team, because WE are now a dogshit ACC team.
I don't think Pry has what it takes to get VT back in the mix in the lowly ACC. It's sad, really. He could change my mind but it'll take making some significant, impactful coaching changes and showing a substantial amount of progress in 2025. My expectations for this are very, very low. I think 2025 is going to be a painful year. I don't think we'll have the same level of talent on campus (which, in and of itself is kind of laughable since we're not very talented right now to begin with) and with these coaches I haven't seen any development at any position, really. Everyone is either where they were when they came in or regressed. Maybe DL is the one exception. Otherwise, the OL is somehow worse than last year. Drones took a massive step backwards at the QB spot. The WRs aren't any better than they were. Tuten is Tuten but nothing else about the RB room excites me. LB play has been stagnant for all 3 years (and bad, to boot) and the DBs just look totally lost out there.
If Pry doesn't want to go the way of Fuente, he needs to surround himself with coaches who know what they are doing and can develop players. Right now, he just doesn't have that. And it shows. The only thing we do consistently is get outcoached. Its embarrassing.
Regardless the UVA result, let's see what Whit does. If it's nothing of note, then this is insanity- doing the same thing and expecting different results. If Whit forces Pry to fire Marve, Crook, Holt, Cheetah- well at least we are trying. I think Bowen deserves another year, he has not been terrible and has at least "tried" to adjust- and his QB and RB 1 have missed time with injuries. But other than he and Mines- who can recruit- everyone else can go. If they all come back- mark it down- more dogshit losses, lose to Vandy again, nailbiter against fucking ODU, lose on national TV to sugar shane with thick irony etc. Brace yourself.
in a dream world: VT blasts UVA 38-0, bro and then on Dec 1st announce the firing of Marve, the entire defensive staff, and at least Crook. Announce a well regarded DC who has the latitude to bring in whoever he sees fit. Bowen goes out and gets a proper OL coach and a QB guru. Pry hires a new assistant who won't make him look absolutely foolish any time the clock has 2 minutes or less.
Leave Price alone, the rest can hit the recycle bin
meh. I really like Price but I think you gotta bring in a completely new staff on that side of the ball. I don't think you can go hire a new DC (who would likely have a different philosophy than Bud/Pry) who is worth his salt and then immediately handicap him by saying he has to work with Price. Maybe the new guy will want to keep Price. That'd be great. But I don't think you mandate that. Fire everyone, hire a new guy and have him build out his staff as he sees fit. You gotta break some eggs to make an omelet. Sometimes good folks in bad programs lose out. It sucks, but I think it is necessary.
Charlie Wiles is a better coach and recruiter than Price, but Justin Fuente didn't think so. Too bad. Reason 122333333 why Fuente is not a head coach in the P4 now.
I appreciate what JC did for the program after Fuente deuced by beating UVA, keeping our recruiting class from being 0 players, etc. I think if a new DC comes in, he's likely on the market for a spot in the G5 or smaller P4 school.
As a die-hard I'm always hoping for the best and want to believe that some tinkering with the coaching staff makeup can right the ship. I've also been a big Pry apologist. But I keep coming back to the fact that a first time HC had the hubris to hire TWO inexperienced coordinators with no head whistle experience and Whit LET HIM DO IT! And now we've wasted 3 absolutely critical years for our football program in a rapidly evolving CFB landscape that will permanently relegate losers to the dustbin of history PAC12-style. That's a huge black mark on not only Pry but on Whit as well.
This is another stunning indictment. Pry is a defense/LB guy. And Marve is his protege. Played LB under him at Vandy. If we can't get LB play right in Year 3, what the hell are we even doing here?
Bowen and Marve aren't first year coordinators anymore. They are 3rd year P4 coordinators, so that excuse is over now. They are not first time coordinators- fact. So put up or shut up. Its like someone on TSL years ago called Stiney "not a P5 coordinator"- he had in fact been a P5 coordinator for 10 years at that point. lol.
Yes. Wasn't making excuses, simply lamenting the fact that a first year HC hired two first year coordinators and the AD let him do it. Poor judgement all around. We're lucky that Bowen has turned out OK. Miraculous that he's been able to scheme up nearly 30 PPG with OL play that wretched. Although, I'm worried we may learn next year that we owe most of that success to Tuten.
Marve was green when we brought him in. Fast forward 3 years, and it's clear he's not learning on the job. Time to move on.
Neither is his boss.
that's what really concerns me. I think Pry can earn a mulligan by making coaching changes. But if he doesn't, for me, that will seal his fate as HC with no clue. He has looked like an absolute clown at the end of just about every half of football we've played this year. If he's doing it himself, he needs to seriously consider hiring someone who can manage that side of things and make him look good. If he's already hired someone to do that, he either needs to listen to that person or fire them and replace them with someone who can do better.
At the end of the day Pry is responsible for putting a competitive football team on the field and he's failed in many respects. Everything we've seen to this point suggests that he's not right for the job. If we go into 2025 with largely the same mix of coaches as we have on staff right now that will only confirm that he has no clue.
This is Pry's year to save face. Fire Marve, hire some time-management assistants, help Bowen find a better OL coach and I'll shut up and listen for another season or two. Maintain the status quo and I'm checked out on the Pry era because it'll end like Fuente's.
It's actually incredibly eerily similar to Fuente's tenure. Fuente was an "offensive minded" "QB whisperer" who came in and immediately improved our offense (through the help of some transfers) before nose-diving off a cliff. By the end of year 3 it was clear that his OC had no f-ing clue and needed to be fired and replaced by someone who knew what he was doing and we didn't have a single QB worth anything on the roster. Pry came in as a "defensive minded" "LB expert" and our defense was immediately better in his first year than it was under Hamilton. Fast forward to the end of year 3 and it's clear his DC has no f-ing clue and needs to be fired and replaced by someone who knows what he's doing and we don't have any real LBs on this team. The parallels are kinda scary.
In 2018 I said Fuente could save face by firing Corny and starting fresh on offense. He didn't and ultimately he ended up failing badly. I'm now saying exactly the same thing of Pry/Marve. Let's see if he's cunning enough to learn from his predecessors mistakes.
Are there really "time-management" assistants in the game? I can understand help with analytics and whatnot, but I always just assume that coaches should know when to call timeouts, when to take the points, etc.
It seems like such an intrinsic part of being the head whistle.
Typically, yes, the HC owns clock management. But Being a head coach has become such an all encompassing role - managing budget, game strategy, practice, recruiting, re-recruiting your roster, shmoozing donors, etc. The job is too big for one person. You gotta delegate something(s).
I'm all for delegating, but I hope Pry isn't pondering the majority of the things you listed while in the final minutes of the game! I'm just picturing him looking at the clock ticking down and wondering about the current recruiting budget. Gave me a good laugh.
In the end, sounds like he is surrounded by duds on the staff.
It's partly TIC. The idea of having an assistant for time management is intentionally ridiculous. Also, Pry hasn't gotten better in his own. He needs help.
Very true. But I also think he can demonstrate some introspection and growth by replacing his protégé with someone experienced.
Bottom line is that the team has underperformed this year, and often in maddening fashion. It would be insanity to run it back next year with the same staff and a less-talented roster and expect that formula will somehow produce better results. Some kind of change is needed. To me, at the minimum that's replacing Marve and some/all of his assistants. But I think the more extreme limits of what have been proposed on here could be justified. The in-game coaching has been so bad that it wouldn't be unreasonable to let Pry go. And if that's the answer then Whit shouldn't get the chance to hire a third FB coach.
Zero posters on this board would have been cool with loses to Vandy, Rutgers, Cuse, Duke- zero. In fact 90% of the posters on this board would have dismissed most with a laugh, but here we are. None of those teams are good. None. And we got swept. Our best win is GT without their QB. We had a chance to beat a not great but good Clemson and couldn't tackle or get first downs. We had a chance to beat miami with one fucking stop in the last 6 minutes of the game- nope. This season has fucking sucked. Very little positives. Very little. Reddish and Coney look pretty good?? is that the takeaway? I guess so. Spencer might be pretty good? There is not a lot if you think about it.
We should seldom lose to those teams you mentioned. Sure the bad game happens, a lesser team gets on a streak, whatever. The fact that I have zero confidence in beating Marshall or ODU or or or or or...is exactly why this program needs a reality check...WE ARE NOT GOOD AT FOOTBALL and haven't been for nearly a decade.
Back in the day...I didn't worry about Temple being on the schedule (eek '98). "I've never been so embarrassed in my life," Virginia Tech defensive end Corey Moore said. "I'm shellshocked. We're the laughingstock of college football right now and deservedly so." I wonder how embarrassed our guys are these days.
Yeah, beat loluva. That'll turn things around.
Donate more money. That'll do it.
For fun, I looked up some series leads:
VT 14 -3 Temple
VT 19 - 12 Duke
VT 22 - 11 BC
VT 12 - 5 Rutgers
VT 6 - 4 Vanderbilt
Syracuse 12- 9 VT
VT 12 - 3 Marshall
VT 4 - 2 ODU
VT 15 - 7 ECU
VT 6 - 1 JMU (barf)
This. Hokies went 0-5 in ONE score games. That's not a talent issue. I already detailed the final two minutes issues but it's equally as frustrating when we watch coaches call plays that aren't in sync with our players on the field. If it's clear as day to us football novices it damn sure should jump off the page at these very highly compensated football professionals.
This season wasn't a talent issue..it was a coaching issue.
I think the players have showed a lot of fight, especially early in the season. But at some point, you are going to start losing respect for your head whistle when he is straight up squandering your hard work and throwing away games with bad in-game decision making. And as many have pointed out, pretty much any kid who has played EA NCAA could do better (including many of the players on the team). It is not rocket science.
Soft, uninterested, non-competitive HS football players don't earn college scholarships. Of course these guys play hard and want to win. They are rare talented athletes at the second highest level outside of the NFL. Of course they compete. That's the rub "well we are playing hard"- yep. That's what elite athletes do. Its like the old refrain "VT works hard in the weight room" yep every fucking team does- hate to break it to you.
I guess others on here and I just wanted to #believe. In 2023, after 3 straight bad losses (Purdue, Rutgers, Marshall) things seemingly started to click. We started to blow out the beatable teams on our schedule once we got into conference play. Maybe the canary in the coal mine was the fact that we couldn't hang with any team with a pulse last year (FSU, Louisville, NC State).
Even then, we returned every key player except for Wright and added pieces via the portal, seemingly shoring up positions of need: LB, DL, even an OL. Side note, I can't believe Cunningham has ridden pine all year with the way our line has performed. I still think it was reasonable to expect the team to take a step forward this year. As much as he would probably like to retract the statement, Pry even set the bar at making the ACCCG.
One thing that's missing from most analysis and can't be understated. Dwight Galt has to go this offseason. That's a nonnegotiable for me. He spends more time with the team than anyone else and we are not conditioned at all