I thought about writing this later in the week after I'd had time to digest the totality of what we've seen leading into a bye week and then three games that will define a season and perhaps a legendary coach's career. But 11 at night nearly 12 hours into a bender is more my style.
What we have at Virginia Tech and what we have in Frank Beamer is not comparable to any other school or any other coach. The easy thing to do in sports is to compare a situation or a player to something that came before it. Every white possession receiver is Oklahoman Wes Welker. Every bruising between-the-tackles runner is Earl Campbell.
But there is no one like Beamer. He's not Bill Snyder simply because he took a team from obscurity and made it relevant in college football thanks in large part to a dual threat QB that wore No. 7. Beamer by all accounts cares a lot more about spending time with his family instead of in the film room than Snyder.
Beamer isn't Bobby Bowden just because the program's downturn coincided with the hiring of the coach's son. Bowden had two national titles under his belt before he eventually retired under duress from the forces around
him.
And Beamer isn't Mack Brown just because attention to recruiting year-round waned late in his career. Texas was Texas long before Brown arrived in Austin.
So what we have in our coach isn't something we can compare to Snyder, Bowden, Brown, Paterno or a coach whose program experienced struggles as he got up in years.
What we have in Beamer is a man who played for the school he coaches, built a program from practically nothing, created it based on a family atmosphere that helped make being in Blacksburg on game day special and helped lead the school through an unfathomable tragedy that was previously unseen in higher education.
The end game of Beamer's career is something we only get to go through once. There's no do-over here. Do we really want to go down as the school that forced out a great man and alum who built a program up from nothing and did so the right way? I don't.
Things are bad and they haven't been this bad in 20 years. That's enough time for an entire generation of Hokie fans to grow up knowing nothing but success. It's the exact opposite of what Kansas City Royals fans are going through right now.
I'm just barely old enough to remember when this team didn't matter. My first Virginia Tech game came in 1991 when the team went 5-6. The next year they were 2-8-1 and the next year the bowl streak started. But all I know is Beamer and he stands as one of the primary reasons my Hokie fandom stuck. While family members did their best to make me a Hokie at an impressionable age, I probably wouldn't still consider myself one if Beamer hadn't created a program that was fun to be around.
Maybe Beamer doesn't fit in the brave new world of college football. He's intensely loyal and a devoted family man. Those are great qualities in life, but are no longer qualities that contribute to college football success. The business has changed and Beamer hasn't.
We have plenty of time to get beyond that, unless Congress bans football in the next decade. Will allowing Beamer to go out when he wants set the program back a few years? That's possible, but not guaranteed. Will forcing Beamer out and replacing him with someone younger and in the mold of today's college football coach get the program back to contending for conference titles? Also possible, also not guaranteed.
I can't see it happening, but it would satisfy both sides if we beat UVA to make a bowl and Frank then announced the bowl would be his last game with the Hokies. We would be allowed to say goodbye and maybe the team would come together, win one for the coach and carry him off the field.
That's a fairy tale. And fairy tales don't happen in college football. Beamer probably isn't going to leave after this season on his own volition so the only way for "real change to happen" as I read so often on Twitter is for the new AD to demand Beamer's resignation and for the new school president to sign off on it.
I don't want to be that program. To me, Frank has earned the right to go out the way he wants to. And I can't imagine it will happen unless there's something going on behind the scenes of the program that we aren't privy to.
Being bad at football isn't fun. Losing the way the Hokies are losing isn't fun. But this program can't be compared to any other program and our coach can't be compared to any other coach. I'm still proud of this program and I'm still proud Beamer is our coach. If Virginia Tech sacrificed its soul to possibly get a better football team just because things got hard it wouldn't be Virginia Tech anymore.
Comments
I agree to a point about him deserving the right to go out on his terms -- however I think that time was maybe last year or the year before. We always talk about how the program is bigger than one person; isn't it in the program's best interest to part ways with him at this point? There absolutely comes a time when you've lost the right to leave on your own terms when things deteriorate beyond your control, which seems like the case here. I fully believe Frank has lost control of his team.
Frank has in no way whatsoever "lost control of his team." Has he failed at certain hires? Has he lost the ability to motivate his team? Possibly. But "losing control" aren't the words you're looking for, I don't think.
You ask two good questions and to be fair, it would take a small book's worth of text at least to answer them.
Has he failed at certain hires? -- Many are already screaming for Loeffler's head. But if they scream for his and are being honest about it, they would with just as much 'egalite' demand Bud's as well. His defense stank yesterday. But maybe it stank for part of the reason that the offense did, injuries, poor recruiting, poor scheme, or just youth that's needs maturing. There are times, and often at big times, Bud's D's give it up at the wrong time and one is left wondering WTF? - Boise, Stanford, FSU, UCLA, yesterday and a few more.
Has he lost the ability to motivate his team? -- This question could have been asked at Pitt two years ago and of course much further back maybe - JMU a prime example. Sometimes it seems the game has passed him by and things are not translating on the field and in the recruitment of home-state talent. If Beamer ever realizes it true, and I'm not saying it is, he'd better relieve himself of duties pronto because it will not be pretty.
Despite the way things look right now, I believe things are being righted. The offense is in a learning mode and whether Loeffler and Beamer both want to admit it or not, we've already got an air-raid offense which methodically just put up 21 points in the last 15 minutes. We've got a chance for some stud D linemen who if they are willing to take a chance will play soon and bring some much needed swag back to Bud's schemes. Those to me are hopeful indications of what could be and we need to commit full force to making them be.
How much time does Beamer and his staff get? It's only my opinion, but one more year ought to be about it. If things aren't going well this time next year, he really would do well to say his 'thanks for the memories.'
You referenced an air-raid offense but the problem with that is CFB doesn't want to run that kind of offense. Which is a shame in my opinion. And you are right, Bud Foster's defenses have been downright amazing over the years...but the way they give up rushing yards to QB's and have been blowing fourth quarter leads for YEARS can't leave him off the hook anymore.
I think 3 step drops and a short passing game is probably our best bet at this point. Just really need work on outside and down field blocking. I think draws would work well too.
Brewer seems to prefer the 13 step drop
haha..this made me chuckle, but at the same time, you'd have a 13-step drop too if you had to work behind the O-line we have blocking for him at the moment..
We don't have anything even remotely resembling an air raid offense. That is a very specific thing. Just passing the ball doesn't mean your running an air raid.
First it's the internet and you're taking that statement maybe a little too literally; point being about the only way we have moved the ball has been through the air. But for the record, I first heard the term as a kid from my dad at an Emory and Henry game in the 60's when they played a team from Kentucky that did nothing but pass the ball. It has stuck with me since. Later there was the Charger's Air-Coryell which as a pro team was somewhat more balanced than just passing and a team which I somewhat equated to that earlier experience. What exactly is an air-raid offense then? Just asking as a learning exercise.
Here's a great article from smart football about the air raid offense
Up until this season, people were giving pass to Bud because he has done great things with our D. Recently a lot of people have been pretty vocal about how our D seems always allow some big plays that also happen to deliver game winning drives or plays for the other team. It happened yesterday with BC. It has been known that Bud Forster does not have recruiting as a priority, and it is coming out that he may not believe that recruiting top talent helps performance. People are starting to turn on him a little bit too.
I did not understand that Bud doesn't think recruiting is a top priority, I understand it that Bud's systems don't require the same type of player as the scheme's many of the top team run.
Top talent from the perspective of the DC from Michigan or LSU may not be the type of talent that VT needs. Therefore, chasing THAT top talent isn't desired. There will be some overlap that we lose, like Nnandi.
Doesn't mean there's a deficiency there, there are a whole lot of teams that wanted him and, I'm not knocking the value of pointing at a crystal trophy to recruiting but, Bud's not even been shy at pointing out he doesn't want some of the same type of player that other teams fight and bite to get.
It simply means Foster hasn't spent the time and energy on recruiting over his career that his peer DC's have.
He however is turning that around a good bit since Stinespring became recruiting coordinator and we revamped our recruiting strategies. Also since Whit became AD there has been added pressure on all the coaches to put more time and energy into recruiting, and more resources to back them up.
I disagree! Although we do have talented players and Bud Foster has done an excellent jobs in making obscure recruits into gems, our lack of talent in the second and third string really showed in both the Miami and BC games. After several injuries to critical players, the depth chart is very weak and the back-up positions are not good enough to compete against decent to good teams.
That's correct but since we have been behind in resources for recruiting as compared to the rest of the ACC and Bud has famously stated since the new hiring that recruiting took loads of time he can use for preparation, it looks like he understood the value before but simply couldn't compete as well for these guys.
Difference between understanding the importance of recruiting and having the resources to actually win them.
What the hell is your definition of "losing control" if repeatedly failing and losing the ability to motivate his players doesn't qualify?
Guys looked motivated yesterday to me.
All the way to the last minute, they looked motivated.
So did the fans, BTW.
I am all for loyalty.... until it starts hitting the bottom line financially. And right now, we're seeing the makings for a financial disaster in Blacksburg if things don't turn around and turn around quickly.
Today's announced attendance was just over 55k people. That's 10k less than capacity and I'd be shocked if there were really that many people there. That's 1/6 less the concession sales we would expect for a given game. That's 1/6 less the parking tickets we would normally sell. That's 1/6 the game tickets we expect to sell. And it's not like this just happened because BC didn't bring anyone... our own fans didn't show up. That in itself is worrisome, and it's worrisome at a bad, bad time.
Right now we are still trying to pay off the previous expansions to Lane. We are still paying off the basketball practice facility. We now just took on the burden to pay off the football indoor facility. We're going to be paying off 3 basketball head coaches this year, one of which just became one of the higher salaried coaches in the conference. Football makes us this money and to see the stadium with vast sections vacant is NOT good. We cannot afford this kind of downturn. We do not have the endowments or the deep pocketed donors to survive a time period where the football team doesn't make money, because that's all the revenue we get.
So while it would be nice to allow Beamer to ride off into the sunset, financially we are not in a position to allow it should this continue. Virginia Tech is larger and more important than just one man. This is a testament to how well he has built this program so that we now legitimately have a cash cow that runs a department. At that same time the dependence we now have on this program financially will be the reason he is forced out if things don't change and don't change fast.
Not to mention, the growth of the Hokie Club membership is not exactly what you would call "exponential."
Got any figures that will show this years changes?
I wonder if all the changes that have been put in place in the past year have made a difference?
It's not like there is complacency here.
The last Hokie Club renewal form, which I just received 2 weeks ago, said there were 9,761 total members. Last year (FY2013), it seems it was about 800 members higher. I imagine Whit will make a huge push this November and December to have members renew.
Yeah that's down a bit.
I wonder how that compares to athletic departments as a whole.
Economy is still not all that good and attendance has been down nationwide.
I think its kinda the same, though on a lesser scale, as TV ratings. Networks are cutting shows for bad ratings then the shows that replace them just get worse ratings. Networks would kill to have the ratings they had two years ago and two years ago they thought their ratings were low. There are so many options on how to spend your time now, going to a football game in the cold isn't that appealing. And staying the whole game isn't either. I hate when people leave games early but some fans don't care as much doesn't matter whether you're winning or losing--even Alabama had that problem.
Hokie Club membership peaked at around 12,000 shortly after Michael Vick's star flashed across our horizon. That was a dozen years ago. Essentially, all during Jim Weaver's tenure, it remained flaccid, and an area that never received attention. Whit Babcock has been given a tough assignment, one that I do not see anyone recognizing for it's challenge. Especially any of the sports media covering VT.
I'd be curious to see how the number of HC members, the average (or perhaps median) annual donation, and total annual donations compare to those of similar fan/alumni clubs at other programs.
Well, I think the fact that our fan base only has less than 10,000 HC members is pathetic. Not sure about donation amounts.
When you remember that we've got about 150K living alums, and have had that many for years & years, and remember that many Hokie fans never attended, then the number of people who put their money where their allegiance is is actually pretty low.
Also half the stadium left at halftime, or perhaps even more
From the stands it looked as if some left but there were lots of people coming and going in the stands all game.
Also, a couple groups near me had access to the interior boxes. They stayed outside for the entrance but about mid way through the 1st Q started heading inside for the warmth and hot food and drink.
Can't blame them for that.
I'm a student in the East Stands and was told by the girls I was with that there was a large group huddling in the bathroom for warmth. Found the same thing in the Men's when I took my trip in the 3rd quarter.
F4H - nice to see you back writing opinion pieces.
I would rather have Beamer be successful again and go out on top than to have him resign, 100 times-over. But, what if he doesn't resign and the team goes to 4-7 wins year after year until 2018? What if Beamer doesn't make another bowl game? Does Beamer want to end his career like that? So, my question is, do you let Beamer suffer or do you take him out of his misery?
Whit's job is to figure out how to make the VT brand successful. If that means "Beamer resigns and takes behind the scenes" job, then Whit needs to figure out a way to make that happen. If that means letting Loeffler go and hiring a new OC, then let Whit and Beamer need to do that together. If the solution is stay the course, then Whit and Beamer will need to find new ways to invigorate the fan base.
I don't know the answer. I also don't think it's fair that a 1st year AD has control over the end of Beamer's legacy. But, I do trust Whit and I fully endorse his decision blindly.
I'm sure Whit and Frank are having these discussions and we have no idea of the tone. Frank has a ton of humility, something that many of these other coaches lacked. But he's also getting himself cornered, which can cause reactions that are counter to norms. I guess here are the scenarios:
1. FB says he's not leaving, Whit won't fire him, we let this play out,
2. FB says he's not leaving, Whit fires him,
3. FB says he can't lead the team effectively anymore and will step down at the end of the year,
4. FB sets a retirement date in the near future and we keep that quiet and ride out the consequences,
5. FB sets a retirement date and we announce it and don't announce a transition plan,
6. FB sets a retirement date and we announce a transition plan.
If you were Whit wouldn't you ask why
Why is the offense suffering, we got a new OC - No improvement or difference in play style/playcalling over last year
Why is the defense suffering, we got a great DC
Why is the special Teams play bad, we got FB
And my question, Why are so many other HCs so involved on the sideline, in the locker room, in disciplining on field errors and yet FB just shakes his head at bad plays, says players don't need motivational speeches before a game, don't need in game feedback on what they did wrong
Seriously, watch Saban on the sideline. Re-watch the BC game and watch BC HC Addazio
I gotta believe that Beamer is aware of the situation, and gracefully step aside before it gets nasty. Well, at least in the public forum.
But I think he's gonna try to hold on with all his might to get through 2016 and the Battle of Bristol.
I agree with you here. Beamer is always stating that he will know when it's time for him to step down. I believe he will step down after the 2016 season. They gave him an extension for recruiting purposes. The only way he stays beyond 2016 is if VT is solid to be in the national title hunt in 2017. By that I mean people are talking about us in that role at the end of 2016. If we have a solid season and a bowl game and are mid-ranked somewhere from 11-25 (or worse) CFB leaves after that season.
And what happens if (some would say when) we have an even worse year in 2015 than we are having in 2014? We have been on a sharp decline for a few years now and coaches have already abandoned talking about next year like they were doing in the preseason and are talking about 2016. At a certain point you can't let the program stagnate or fall for too long or you'll reach a point where it'll be incredibly difficult to climb back.
Compares a lot to Wake Forest Basketball. My Alumni co-workers have watched the now ex-coach run the team so far in to the ground that it's 2 -3 years from relevance.
The AD and a few Mega-fans liked the basketball coach and accepted his words of coming change that never came but they kept supporting him. Wake has gone from a Tobacco Road team making the NCAA 64 (a bowl game) to nothing because no one wanted change.
Now finally with a new coach it will be 2 -3 years before Wake is back
IS that really where Tech wants to be? Team history and loyalty or not, how far back are we wanting Tech Football to fall
Have we really reached the point that we are comparing a coach with a national championship game appearance, three Big East championships, and four ACC championships (at a school with at best a 30th-40th best resource profile) to Jeff freaking Jeff Bzdelik?
I don't know what the end game is for Frank Beamer. If the decision is made to let him go, so be it. But this automatic assumption that better days will greet the program when he is gone is laughable. For every Jimbo Fisher (who was an option because of the resource and recruiting profile of Florida State) there is a Gerry Faust, Lane Kiffin/Derek Dooley, Ron Prince, Al Groh, or whichever other buffoon replaced a coaching institution and failed miserably. For whatever criticisms, and many are fair, of Frank Beamer, his performance certainly merits more respect than Jeff Bzdelik comparisons. FFS.
I'm not comparing him to Jeff Bzdelik.
I'm saying the situation is becoming the same. A school with a coach the AD and major Boosters believe in but isn't showing it on the field and the continued lack of success is a multiplier of years to rebuild
Lane Kiffin/Derek Dooley yea that is about where we may be headed. Fulmer was given the same status and finally forced out after not leaving on his own. That left a program desperate to get back to winning to hire the first promising coach. That left for them to hire a coach that was the opposite, and bled the school colors, played the school HC part of loyalty and spirit. To rebuild a fan base twice now burned over. To finally move on to a winning HC
It's the situation when need to be watching
I also think he resigns after 2016 regardless of performance unless it looks like a NCG run, which is unlikely.
Looking at what we got right now, I will not write off a playoff run in a couple years.
I like the changes they are making and with a few improvements see this team as a very good team.
If our Oline was better and deeper, the positive impact to almost every aspect of the game would go through the roof.
But there has been no real change.
We still recruit the same players
From the ESPN (since some don't like 24/7) 2015 Football Class Rankings Top 40
(Teams we will soon play and the Top 5)
1. Alabama
2. Clemson
3. Georgia
4. Florida State
5. Texas A&M
6. Tennessee - Side note - 2 Top 5 DTs and 4 Top 50 OT in the class
8. Ohio State
11. Notre Dame
13. Miami (FL)
24. North Carolina
25. West Virginia
27. Duke
37. Georgia Tech
38. Boston College
40. Pittsburgh
Not Ranked #1-#40 Virginia Tech
We still play the same style of Football
See any recent game, compare it to any game last 5 years
Many of these wholesale recruiting changes were made in the spring.
Our first signing class with these changes come in February.
You are going to have to wait to get any meaningful results here.,
As far as on field.
I think there has been a significant improvement in especially WR recruitment and QB recruitment over recruitment in these positions 3-4 years ago. I see wholesale increase in kicker competition this year, all freshmen.
I see us doing a little no huddle for a series or so at a time. I saw almost none of that 3-4 years ago,
Does it need to get better? Yup.
But as for no changes? I think you guys can't see the trees for the forest.
On December 7, 2012, Jones was introduced as the new head coach of the Tennessee Volunteers
On January 18, 2013, Virginia Tech head coach Frank Beamer announced Loeffler's hiring
It's been almost the same amount of time for 2 schools to overhaul themselves. The difference is huge. That's my point. We can keep making excuses but as of today the other team is selling something better.
We play UT when these recruits will be R-Fr or Soph
I don't see the relevance.
Educate me, please. it's how I learn.
Edit: Ok, I see your edit.
I'll see your HC change and raise you a Athletic Director change 24 Jan 2014. and 2 recruiting additions, March 2014.
Yea a new AD is big but was unexpected due to health
But when the announcement came of the 3 new coaches it was a 2nd wind type of announcement. I remember it being a big deal and that Tech was back, similar to a new coach change.
It was Beamer saying we need changes but don't change me I'll change things for results
AD was not that unexpected and it's no secret that he's was very conservative with cash.
The new guy is an investor and so immediately got some spending where these guys had been trying for some time.
I have no idea where you get the following from.
Teeltime
Official announcements may not come as fast as fans would like, but it certainly appears as if Beamer is close to the offensive staff makeover the Hokies 7-6 record proved they need.
Were days, if not hours or minutes, from learning Frank Beamers most important decision in 20 years
This much is certain: No Beamer decision, not the staff changes of 1992-93, not the suspension of Marcus Vick in 2006, has been as anticipated. And when his choice is revealed, the vetting among Hokie Nation will be unprecedented.
I'm not sure how that applies to this discussion.
those were the media articles, the atmosphere leading up to the change
Yes the new AD was due to health. And every one of us is praising Whit for every move he has been making and how he has done such a great job. It almost sounds like Weaver should have left a little earlier instead of hanging around and not seeing much improvement when it was obviously needed. (Sound familiar?)
And Beamer has continually said, "I stay as long as I have a good quarterback, good kicker, and my health." Well none of us want Beamer to have poor health, but if he does step down soon and it's not because of health reasons, what message is that exactly sending? Although, obviously that statement isn't true because we had Journell and a kid who walked on from the street last year kicking the ball.
AD change is apparently doing wonders even though we had a lot of success during Weaver's tenure. Are we arguing that the only thing holding us back was Weaver from hiring recruiting position and making other changes?
Gotta give Weaver his due here, he left VT Athletics in fantastic financial shape so that Whit had many options as soon as he arrived. An enormous amount of credit goes to him for that.
As to his hanging on too long? We don't know how long there was an AD search going on behind scenes so that they had a few choices to look over. Another outstandingly important tool.
Overall the transition was fantastic and so far nothing but a positive experience and a huge truckload of that credit goes to Weaver, his staff and the board. Especially considering the nature of Weaver's illness. I know I've spoken ill of the man with the 2 year history of noon kickoffs but, as for the state of the department under his tenure, I have nothing but smiles for the guy.
And we have the same record at Tenn, both in total and in conference... but somehow they are doing a good job and we aren't??
Have you seen their 2015 recruiting class. I'd say thats a pretty good judge of what college football thinks of your school and the future of your program
Jones is selling a program that is going back to the top, a program for only the best results
Brick by Brick, it's his thing and it's everywhere he is in Tennessee
I have no clue what Tech is selling
Partly I'm sure since I live in TN. But that's a small amount
Well since the 2015 recruiting class isn't signed yet, there's something happening involving a phrase that contains the words jumping and guns.
2015 class? I'll look into when they actually sign a letter of intent, until then I guess you're right, it looks good on paper... but I haven't seen a piece of paper win a football game yet
and I was just sitting here thinking you sound like the Tenn fans around here, proclaiming they "were back" after beating Utah St and Ark St.. quite the delusional bunch, you may have spent too much time around them as it sounds like it's rubbing off
Actually, there's a number of new guys on since last football season that sound more like rival fans trying to undermine confidence than Hokies trying to noodle things out.
Rivial fans?
If by UVa fans the only thing I think UVA wants is Frank to stay.
If London stays on and becomes a staff member after this year, there is no way current VT can keep winning against UVA with a HC that knows football
17 - 14 and VT won because the guy in charge doesn't understand timeouts and the bowl streak is on the line. 16 - 6 in a rivarly game?
edit for mistyping
I can understand your first sentence but can you rewrite what follows that?
I don't understand that at all.
Sorry, I can't understand that.
Thanks for updating that but, I would not speculate as to where they might be from but it sure seems like there are a lot of people that want to fire almost everyone including guys that sweep the floors and a drop a bunch of the players.
But Frank has a great record against these guys. No way London out coaches Frank on anything close to a regular basis.
I'm not saying you, just a general observation.
O cool
Yea no way London does, but the talent in Charlottesville is growing and once a new coach comes in that's when things won't be so easy
Its a pretty good indicator as to which conference they play in as well
True but both Josh Sweat and Tim Settle (both very possible Tech commits) haven't decided on schools yet
We're also not in the SEC or in a city as big as Knoxville. Comparing our recruiting classes to UT is futile. We will never get as many big-time recruits as them. Its more about what they do when they get on the field.
Also, from 247 some of the top recruiting classes over the last few years:
2013: Michigan - 7
2012: Michigan - 6, Texas - 2, loluva - 20
2011: Texas - 3, Michigan - 28, loluva -20
I don't think you can take class rank as everything. Michigan and Texas are at least as big of a dumpster fire as we are right now.
While I despise UT, there is a world of difference between them being in the SEC-E and the ACC Coastal. They just beat USC-E, Played UGA to within 3, lost a game they should have won to UF 10-9. They also had enough insight to make a needed QB switch by playing a good dual threat the past 2 weeks that has reenergized their O. Dobbs ran for 166, passed for 301 and accounted for 5 td's. When is the last time VT had over 600 yds vs a decent team? While we may have the same record, IMO, they are the better team right now.
The 2015 recruiting season is far from over... way to post irrelevant rankings.
I'm past believing in Beamer's judgment. From his own statement on retirment
Beamer was asked what he tells recruits who wonder how much longer he'll continue to coach. He gave his standard answer that as long as he's got a good quarterback, a good kicker and good health, he'll coach a few more years.
Please remind me when we had both of those.
I think his judgement is pretty good and in fact, an improvement over 3 years ago. I think he's really been agressive the past few years in making changes and trying to get things back on track.
I don't know about his health, but in my book yesterday meets the other requirements .. you can't blame the kicker for the blocked FG, and Brewer threw for 65%, 345 yards, 2 TDs and no turnovers
Actually, it wasn't that far a kick.
At game speed from the stands, it looks like he should have kicked it a bit higher to help avoid that but, then again, there was more penetration than should have been.
Overall a fairly decent effort by a true freshman walk on for the season.
Some I'm sure he'll want back but, he'll be better next year.
He seems like the guy to learn from it.
Anyone lot ice Sly was doing kickoffs too?
You're awesome, f4h.
I'm going to refer to an argument I have seen time and time again on TKP. We have heard "Put in Motley or Durkin or Ford because they're young and this season is pretty much over so what's to lose" over and over again.
Well I will see that arument and raise you one: Do that at the HC position. Yes, Frank is a great person and VT loves him. However, with the state of the program and the time he has left, do we really see this team getting better and back to National recognition with him here? There is no way you are saying yes after watching this season. The upside of keeping him here for another 1-3 years is slim to none. It's a waste of time. We need to quit delaying the inevitable and do "What's Important Now." This staff needs to go because the sooner a new HC comes, the sooner success has an opportunity to return to Blacksburg. As a recuit, do you want to come to a program who has a HC who hasn't had a good team in 3-5 years and has a maximum of 3 years left with signs that the program is only getting worse? Simply put, no.
Frank reminds me of most people's first car. You love that old thing and hate to get rid of the thing, but it gets to the point where you have to let it go and finally get a new car. Then you get a nee car and say, "Damn, this thing is pretty sweet, I should have made this move earlier."
As hard as it is to say for us Hokie Faithful who have watched Frank raise VT Football into it is today, the move needs to be made sooner rather than later.
I disagree wholeheartedly with your conclusion.
I might if I saw complacency but, I do not see complacency.
1) I see wholesale changes on the method of recruiting and a 100% increase in the non coaching recruiting staff as well as an increase in the budget that gets us back up into the range of the other ACC teams.
2) Wholesale turnover in the entire offensive staff that took place over a period of 2 years with the section most in need of improvement, the Oline, on it's first year with that coach.
3) A very promising freshman class that has provided most of the playmakers in skill positions showing that recruiting has changed with the offense.
I'd like to see an analysis of the injuries, we seem especially hard hit lately. After GT was it 14 of the 44 1's and 2's?
The problem is Frank Beamer did not initiate any of those changes. Stinespring, and the new coaches started pushing for all that, and when Whit came aboard, things happened.
It should be painfully clear by now, that FB is pretty set in his ways as a coach and manager of the team. Those ways are behind the times of modern college football, and we see the results on the field.
Ok, help me wrap my head around this a little as you tell it. Stinespring asked for the offensive staff to get sacked and for himself to be demoted but Frank wouldn't do it but eventually relented.
The new offensive coaches that Frank hired pushed to get the old Athletic director to increase the budget and get more recruiting staff but were ineffective and they were the ones that got Whit to make the changes and Frank wasn't key here as well.
That's pretty difficult to logic out.
You need to check back to the article and set of links to get caught up. there is a lot you are missing here.
VT adds recruiting staff.
Here's a quick summary.
We add AD.
Frank goes on record that we've been short on recruiting for a while now.
New AD adds 2 positions and make some great hires.
Here's my take on this. The whole staff knew we were behind the times on it but that's not something under the control of the Dept of Football but the AD,
New AD famously talked to every member of the staff and got the coordinated message from many of the coaches " We need this, this and this." AD takes action to make it happen.
Absolutely doesn't sound like a stuck in the mud Frank to me, it sounds like a dedicated AD that wants to take action and get the HC the help he needs.
Unfortunately, someone who responded to another comment of mine is complacent saying our goal should was along the lines of winning the ACC and winning a big game here and there.
As far as these recruiting improvements, it's great they are being done, but they should have been done a long time ago. Beamer has never been a great recruiter. Point Blank.
And the analysis of the injuries is simple, the recruiting is bad so therefore there is no depth so someone's injury means that much more. And injuries are a part of football, they are going to happen.
The bottom line is I see a lot more upside in replacing Frank than I do in the limited amount of time Frank will be the HC. There is a chance we hire a coach and we have struggles, but it's either now or in a few years and I see a higher chance of success in a new coach, especially long term.
Name a team that had a successful season after losing 2 running backs (for a period of time 3), 3 defensive starters that were supposed to anchor the defense, and graduated 6/7 of their front seven, a three-year starting quarterback, and two nfl caliber corners. This year was supposed to be tough to start with abd the outlook got worse.
We are currently playing with 5 players on defense with any experience (3 starters), a offensive line that has been coached by 3 different philosophies in 3 years, a transfer quarterback that has been with the team 5 months, and a bunch of freshman receivers and running backs.
What amount of recruiting could the current staff have done to fix this? Recruit more corners, they did. More linebackers, they did. More linemen, they did. Better quarterbacks, they're redshirting. The youth at running back and receiver is playing. They might not be 5 stars but that talent is a limited resource and we are not at the level to draw that talent. Purely from a recruiting standpoint, the potential is here and continuing to come.
It's nice to say changes should have been done earlier but it wasn't. It shouldn't be a critcism of our current staff and shouldn't overshadow the progress that has been made.
A leg for you. Offensively, every key talent recruited by the new offensive staff besides QB and OL (everyone is hurt except for Gallo, who is travelling, and Mitchell, who is redshirting) have contributed far more on offense than their predecessors last round of recruits.
Defensively, a ton is riding on this class. Land any two of Dalton, Settle, Sweat, DeBerry, Toliver, and Taylor, and keep all the guys currently committed, and you have the infusion of young talent desperately needed to supplement a couple of real good players that have no depth to help them right now. Reynolds, Hill, and the youngest Edmunds are going to be very good, and you can see the upside and speed of a bunch of young guys reflected in the huge improvement of punt and kickoff coverage this season.
I agree. The team has looked promising, but has struggled in a lot of ways. A lot of my comments came after I read some jackass' tweets who led me to fear that this program was spiraling downward quickly. My comments have been in response to as if those were true. However, I should have spoken as if they were not. The end of the Beamer era is near so the transition process is going to have to be thought out. I'm sure Beamer and Whit have already began discussing it. There are many different ways this process could go, and I just want it to go as smoothly as possible.
great post. +1
Everything about this speaks to me. It's perfect. It's everything I've been thinking and feeling this season. Thank you.
Talk is of change and college football has changed immensely as all realize. Change requires tough decisions and is painful for all both externally and internally. Successful organizations are constantly evolving and defining change. Frank hasn't embraced change quickly enough to remain relevant with today's HS kids and the world they live and evolve in. Why is some of the most talented kids in the state taking their skills elsewhere both instate and out of state? Tech used to receive a higher share of these athletes but not anymore, why is that? Perception of the program, the coach, the system? All in my opinion. VT has a new president a new AD, and a new MBBC. The university is changing and will continue to change. The football program is not progressing it has regressed in the last couple of years. Tired of hearing " the team is improving" from him when they lay an egg. Show some emotion and be truthful to yourself, it was a pathetic showing. Is that to hard? Hey we all for the most part genuinely care a lot about HFCFB and his contributions to VT over the last quarter of a century. Hopefully he genuinely cares enough as well to step aside so he's not directed down a new career path. The future is not someplace you get to but rather is created everyday. Don't think he is creating the future of Vt football as he once did.
It's very difficult to hear him say how much we're improving week to week when the team's record keeps getting worse and worse by the week and year.
This is the 3rd year in a row where we will not have as good a record this year as we did last year. We are alone in last place in the ACC Coastal, widely regarded as one of if not the weakest division in Power 5 college football. We are 2 losses from our first bowl less season in 22 years. No, Frank, we are not improving, we haven't been improving for a while.
Frank Beamer has done great things for this program, but he also got here at the right time. We had been to two bowls the three prior years before he became the coach. He was a disaster until 1992. The two things that helped him the most were getting in the Big East and Miami being hit with big penalties. Then we slipped again until we switched to the ACC. And just about every ACC football program sucked. Miami was hit with penalties again. Florida St had a coach who didn't feel like recruiting anymore. We won our share of ACC championships although some of us believe we should have won more. Then Florida St. And Clemson got serious about football again. And the complacency in our program caught up with us.
You say he should leave on his own terms? I think he already checked out a few years ago. He's just collecting a paycheck now.
What!? Lame garbage statement.
You basically said in this post that all of VTs success was based on timing and little else. That is a HUGE oversimplification of facts and history.
Please...
Beamer stays till 2016. He has fought for years to get the Battle at Bristol, and we as a fan base owe him that.
As for a further decline, this year could end rough. But a lot of key pieces are falling into place. We are losing close games with less than dominant play. Typically, with some growth, the kids and coaches that go through that, end up blowing up the following year. Our biggest issue I think is consistency right now, both sides of the ball (as much love as we give Bud, look at how many times the D has lost the game for us in the waning moments of the game).
With growth and age, consistency comes. I still see that 2016 could be the miracle year. I see 2015 being a 10 win year and 2016 going beyond that. Its already on display in front of our faces, just needs to that extra push.
Bruton Smith fought for years to get that game in place, not Beamer.
All that Beamer is owed in Blacksburg is a graceful departure from his head coaching spot. He has not earned the right to coach in any specific game, and he has not earned the right to leave on his own time. He deserves a ton of respect when he goes, but this is a business, and once the financials start running dry (and seeing a fairly empty Lane yesterday does not give me good feelings about our financials this year), the clock starts ticking. If we financially tank it this year, and next year looks to be even worse, its time to pull the plug and cut the losses.
Agree.
A lot of changes have been made to make improvements.
As long as they are making changes and the changes look good, I can wait. Impatiently but, I can wait.
Wrong.
App State Fired Coach Jerry Moore. Moore built the program nearly the same as Frank.
a Coach who led the Mountaineers to three consecutive national championships, 23 winning seasons in 24 years and the monumental upset over Michigan in 2007. Was forced to retire in 2012 after an upset home loss where his team still finished ranked #7 in the FCS
Yeah, and how did that go for them?
They went from Moore and winning their conference 4 of the last 5 years of his tenure (including 2012)
to Satterfield who led them on a 4-8 record in 2013 and has them at 3-5 this season.
App St also jumped from FCS to FBS,.... not exactly comparing apples to apples
What a great read this morning really couldn't agree more about the fact that we cannot compare the situation here in Blacksburg to anywhere else in the country because there's nothing to compare it to. I believe and trust in the fact that when things do become bad enough to were we can no longer fix them that Frank will step down and turn over a new page for Virginia Tech football. I want to address something aswell for the people making the argument that the coaching change needs to happen today tomorrow or the next day stop rushing change because I fear that when this change gets made we will be in a situation very similar to what we are now rarely does a coach come in and have instant success whether it be with recruiting or winning. We need to be patient and let things playout.
I respect your opinion and fully understand where you're coming from. Maybe I'm just not the sentimental type, but I disagree with you. There is very, very little to suggest that there's going to be a change in the next few years. Recruiting wise we're pretty average, our talent is there but the coaches aren't full executing. That has been the broken record for the past 3 years.
You're saying the Frank is different than Bowden, Mack or JoPa but they really aren't. Sure, Frank built the program from the ground up, something that is extremely commendable and something the other three didn't really do, but 20 years on that's now a distant memory. It's 2014, and Frank is falling behind. This happened to FSU, PSU and Texas in the 2000s. History is repeating itself for Frank now.
We try to hold on to the past, to something familiar as a security blanket, and I understand that, but for me it's a little different. I will always respect Frank as one of the best coaches college football has seen, but I also recognize that his glory days are over and the cycle is going to continue like it did with those before.
Thank you, Furrer. I love Frank. As much as it hurts us to watch them lose, if you think that it doesn't affect Beamer far more, you're nuts. I've never known Tech without him. I've watched us lose to JMU, Temple, ECU and a slew of other teams. And all of that sucked. I've also seen us beat Bama, Texas, Nebraska, Texas A&M, anOSU, FSU, Tennessee and UVA and Miami a shitload of times. And those wins made it worth it. And he made those happen. So even if we lose 8 games a year until he retires, that's fine. It will not be fun, but it will be worse for him, and that's why I know it won't happen.
Also, "letting him leave on his own terms" means we eat the shit sandwich if this downturn continues. You can't say that and then change your mind when we lose more than you'd like.
Thanks again, this was well written and I agree whole heartedly.
well put. I'll eat that sandwich. Frank has earned that respect.
Well said. Amen.
Let's look at key facts regarding recent football performance that in my opinion are coaching issues:
Before snap and all other penalties have severely hurt not only this year but in the last three years.
Inability to close wins in last minutes of a game.
Special team play in last three years way below par.
Inconsistent play calling that depends on strong offensive line.
Inability to defense against good running QB's. Over reliance on defensive secondary to pick up slack.
Recruiting only focused in VA won't sustain championship teams.
As the old saying goes, a strong leader "knows when to hold 'em and knows when to fold 'em".
Welcome to TKP within the past hour.
We no longer focus on only VA recruiting and have famously gotten some good guys from a broadened region.
Try to find any offensive play calling that doesn't require a more consistent offensive line than we have right now. It doesn't exist.
A weak spot is the dual threat quarterback but, that's a common weakness on many teams. Or else everyone wouldn't be falling all over themselves to get one.
Presnap penalties have improved the past couple games. Our penalty count was pretty low yesterday in relation. It was a nicely disciplined game yesterday, all told.
I see lots of improvements but a lack of rolling them all into the same game. It'll happen.
The thought of a running quarterback being Bud Foster's personal kryptonite is laughable. As you say, teams all over the football world are struggling to adapt and contain them. I seem to recall Alabama struggling mightily against some kid the last two years...
See but shouldn't that be inexcusable. Bud has 10 years worth of tape and experience in first hand understanding a mobile QB. If the teams have been practicing daily, Foster had years of time to watch practice and run plays against Tyrod or Logan just in recent history
If nothing else why don't the coaches work together on the weaknesses.
This "Bud's defense can't deal with mobile quarterbacks" is LAUGHABLE. Are we talking about the same Bud Foster that embarrassed Woody Dantzler (the only 1000 yard rushing quarterback in ACC history that just happened to be a pretty good passer?) How about Denard Robinson? Perhaps Super Bowl champion Russell Wilson is more your style?
The fact is, the design of the defense is not the problem, nor is the teaching. The Hokies were susceptible to SCRAMBLING quarterbacks (Brown and Hundley didn't piss a drop on designed runs except for draws, which are successful for the same reason a scramble is-space) last season because injuries in the secondary required using man coverage, and if the QB broke the original contain, there wasn't help coming from DBs who had to turn and run with receivers. The defensive ends (one of whom we know know was playing with a seriously injured shoulder that didn't allow him to close space with his inside shoulder) would get too far up field, and the slower defensive tackles couldn't close the huge amount of space between them in the ends WHILE BEING BLOCKED. Feel free to read a film breakdown of this challenge before spouting off: http://www.thekeyplay.com/content/2013/november/19/unexplainable-breakin...
This season has been a VERY different animal. Most of the QB rushing has come off of designed quarterback run design, with most success coming on read option and QB counter. Those plays have been successful for two reasons.
First, look at your personnel. Without a big, effective, space eating tackle, Bud is forced to play high risk and shoot his defensive tackles through gaps and crash his defensive ends. Inside, that results in great plays (see a Corey Marshall gashing inside to make a stop) but it also makes those DT's incredibly vulnerable to down blocks. When they don't get through the gap unscathed, they are easily driven inside. The defensive ends crashing makes them incredibly vulnerable to read and counter plays, and while Ekanem and Dadi have made spectacular plays, often they are also not playing very sound fundamental contain football (perhaps by design.) This opens up lanes, and THE DESIGN OF THE DEFENSE is for the two safeties and mike linebacker to fit those gaps. Andrew Motuapuaka is a young guy just starting his Hokie journey, but his mistakes in filling alleys are magnified greatly when the two senior safeties are right where they are supposed to be AND THEY DON'T MAKE THE TACKLE. If you think that Bud Foster taught Detrick Bonner to do that sidestep ole arm wrap tackle, then I have some lovely beachfront property in Big Creek West Virginia to sell you.
Good grief... I don't think anyone can come here and say that things are perfect. Far from it. The program is off it's axis right now. But to imply that outstanding coaches have suddenly "lost it" or are incompetent is ignorant to the inner workings of any football program. The fact is, that downswing in recruiting immediately after the JMU loss, the lack of offensive line recruiting, so many top defensive recruits like Nick Acree, Zach McCray, Nick Dew, and some current guys not contributing much, having a wide receiver class post Coale-Boykin consisting of David Prince, Carlis Parker, and Joel Caleb-none of whom took a snap at WR in high school, not having a single upper tier defensive end recruit other than Ekanem dressed out.... these are coming home to roost.
Now, let's look at yesterday. The offense still has issues (QB, right side of the OL), and the freshmen still have a ton of growing and learning to do, but performed well against a veteran D. The first Loeffler recruiting class has identified players that are better as true freshmen at every skill position (except QB-because we can't evaluate them yet) than the players who were brought up to start by the previous offensive staff.
Defensively I am much more worried, but I am worried because of the big gap created by all the washouts. There were no bridge players to help supplement Facyson, Clark, and Kendall Fuller after the graduation of the seniors at corner. There were no bridge players to generate real competition for Jarrett and Bonner at the safety spot while potential stars like Reavis and Fisher grow into the position. Defensive end speaks for itself. Linebacker- we may be talking about the position differently if RVD and DVD could have been healthy and Telvion Clark had not been a knucklehead.
I am in wait and see mode, because I have heard all this talk before. Beamer was an buffoon who couldn't do anything in 1992. In 1998, he needed to modernize the offense and Bud Foster wasn't ready for the job after getting shelled by North Carolina in the Gator Bowl. In 2003, Beamer had sacrificed the ethos of the program to allow talented knuckleheads to play in Blacksburg, ruining team chemistry, and Bud Foster's defense had been passed by in the modern passing game. In 2005, Beamer had a national championship caliber team, but ruined it by letting Marcus Vick back on the team and not having a contingency plan at QB. In 2010, Bud Foster was the worst because a bad defensive line could have potentially cost the Hokies a national championship (GUILTY OF SAYING THIS) and STINESPRING.) Each time up until 2011, the course of the program has been righted. I am not an expert on anything behind the scenes, and this lull is troubling long. And if it is time, it is time. But this level of vitriol absolutely sickens me.
2 good things come out of this.
1 is another article by French disguised to look like a comment.
The other is that I find myself backed up considerably in my intuition here.
It is just like the comments about the screens. THE WR SCREENS ARE NOT PASSING PLAYS IN EFFECT. THEY ARE RUNNING PLAYS. 4 YARDS ON A QUICK SCREEN IS THE 2014 VERSION OF GETTING 4 YARDS ON A QUICK TOSS IN 1975 FROM THE WISHBONE OR A TOSS SWEEP IN 1992.
By the way, so far (halftime) into the film, I have seen four screens.
Ford for 4 yards
Ford for 1 yard
Ford for 4 yards
Hodges for 9 yards.
I am no math wiz, but that is 18 yards. Over 4 yards per play. If you understand why it is called, and how (as part of a triple option package with an inside zone), 4.3 yards a play isn't a bad thing.
Hey guys, what he says here is that VT is playing modern football.
Please take note.
Egbert, that's impossible. I've read on the boards that Beamer is handcuffing everything and we don't do anything other than try to control the clock.
Really?
Beamer is handcuffing everything?
Now there's an image I cannot wipe out of my mind's eye.
Thanks for that.
Don't hate the man for reading...
And....
We go full circle.
http://www.thekeyplay.com/content/2014/september/30/hatin-larry-fedora
Herma's readers, everybody
I left out Byrn catching a screen for 6 yards on the drive that featured Wright getting blown up on 4th down. That ups the average to just under 5 yards a play.
Thanks for the objective macro-level analysis.
Are these screens called at the LOS by Brewer when he recognizes a numbers advantage or are they called in from the sideline? Wouldn't they have to be LOS calls?
It's part of an option called a package play.
That's a googleable term.
Ah yes, package plays. < safe search on >
lol
So I am guessing that is why I thought the screen passes to Byrne in the Second half were sight reads
Is it incorrect to view the front seven as undisciplined at this point then? I feel like I see a lot of over-pursuit by the ends getting (perhaps pushed) too deep behind the QB, bad angles, poor tackling form, and missed tackles. But I know there's a lot of inexperience in those units and maybe I'm too focused on the negatives.
How do you say we aren't focused only on VA for recruiting? Did something just change. Each February FB says he's pleased with the states recruiting and how the goal was to win the state in recruiting and on the field. Thats great and glad we expanded to Maryland and some FLa. But shouldn't we be recruiting the entire country. Shouldn't we be winning the entire country in recruiting battles.
We keep complaining about other school recruiting VA and the 757. Other schools aren't recruiting the area they are recruiting the best players in the country, and some are in 757
Nobody wins the entire country. These are college kids. These aren't paid professionals. You're not going to convince a lot of kids from SoCal to play in Maine. You'll get some, sure, but you're going to have a much easier time convincing local talent that you can teach them how to football, and win games. Especially when you consider that local talent is much more likely to have grown up rooting for the local team.
I would wager that UVA and VT have more 757 kids than any other two programs in the nation. Why? Because those are the two local teams that are close to home. No matter how much winning UCLA puts on offer, leaving home to go all the way to Souther California across the entire country is a huge commitment for an unpaid college football player.
But that's what top football players do to play at the top football programs
here's an album of the difference
http://imgur.com/a/BUlW4
Of course.
Now I'd like to suggest you do a quick search on recruiting budgets and compare VTs to those teams mentioned like Texas, Michigan and LSU and see just how many plane ticket and hotel rooms of difference you have there.
Then consider the size of VT student body with the whole of the University of Texas school system and their 450,000 alumni (just from UT) and compare that to VT.
I think you will agree that there is no way we will ever be able to compete with that. We will not be traveling to SoCal or very many Texas high school football games to evaluate potential recruits and then repeatedly travel there to meet recruits and their families.
Whereas many of these guys can fly into VA and do it at will.
Money definitely helps
Virginia tech listed recruiting expenses for 2012 as $1.15M. Little over $1mil out of a annual budget of $67 mil. 1.7% of spending went to recruiting. The big spenders -
Auburn spent $2.54M Tennessee $2.25M Notre Dame was third with $2.05M. Annual Budget 96M, 101M, and 78M. And percentage of budget spent on recruiting 2.6%, 2.2%, 2.6%
As does geography
Baylor 67M Revenue Spends 1.2M
Or are we not spending it correctly
BC has a budget of 66M and spent only 784,000
And we need to be. thats the problem
Louisville is, 968,000
Michigan St is, 901,000
Florida 1.3M
And Fl State are 769,000
But also players choose schools based on past preformance and what the coach tells them they can be
Where did you find that number?
I know they've gone up lately but that's much higher than anything I've seen for VT.
Edit:
Ok, I see the ESPN database now has this for 2012.
Database for NCAA schools reported budgets.
Wait one for additional commentary.
VT
2012 $1.15M
2011 $981,067
2010 $923,439
2009 $800,905
So, we see a marked improvement, an increase of about 25% according to this database but, these numbers are a lot larger than other numbers I've seen.
Edit #2. Ah, these are all types of recruiting, not just football. Faculty, students, other sports, etc.
Here is a source for just football. Also from ESPN so you can see the difference reported in the database.
ESPN 2010-2011 football recruiting.
Selecting the same schools you did but adding Texas because I used them and I know they are high.
Texas 577,976 329,736
Auburn 950,378 678,936
Tennessee 1,479,099 1,135,211
No numbers for Notre Dame, BC or Baylor (Private non-reporting)
Louisville 230,650 222,510
Michigan St. 383,448 390,289
Florida 602,929 466,145
Florida State 433,236 349,444
Virginia Tech 243,513 236,628
Take something into account here in terms of travel cost.
How far a drive is it to get to our VA prime recruiting grounds? 4 hours to Richmond 6 to 757?
Compare that to a drive from UVA - 45 minutes and 4 hours?
So, it's a plane flight and overnight trip for 2 coaches to go to a Friday night football game in 757 and a total 8 hours drive and overnight to go to a game in Richmond whereas a coach at UVA walks out his back door to a Richmond game or drives to Newport News and back on a Friday.
VT is not close to a large place with high density of high schools. We need a larger budget than most just to be on the same access level.
I don't think he has the right to go out on his own terms. In fact imho, no coach "deserves" the right to leave whenever he wants. Change is needed and it starts with the HC
It already started with the AD, complete offensive staff, new recruiting staff larger budget, recruiting systems and new indoor practice facility.
You are late this party.
And that has fielded a great product this year and past. Starts and ends with the HC. time for him to go after this year.
Well no, since the AD hasn't even been here for a complete season yet, the recruiting for the next class is not even 1/2 way into phase 2 and signing day is 3 months away, the practice facility doesn't have walls and a roof yet and the season's budget has been in place 2,5 months or so, I think your expectations for the amount of time for changes to take effect are a bit out of whack.
It's not like turning on a light switch, besides the fact that part of the changes are already having good results.
look, I originally just said CFB needs to. The game is passing him by, it its scary that he doesn't see it.
I can't agree with a general point like that.
Where do see the game passing him by?
You need to examine some of French's more recent comments to see how wrong a comment that really is.
You don't have to agree with my opinion, agree to disagree. I am not just going to change my opinion on what other people or French have said. I think French is an excellent writer on here and adds a lot to TKP, but that doesn't mean I always agree with that he says. People/fans have different perspectives and opinions on our football program, and thats fine by me. Its obvious some people agree with me that he should go and obvious that some people disagree with me. I am just one who thinks it is time for him to go. Like I said, all I was trying to say was I don't think he has the right to leave on his own terms, that is all.
It's very good to agree to disagree, even if I don't think it's scary he doesn't see it's time to fire himself.
Have a jack o' lantern for the scary reference.
As much as I would love for Beamer to read TKP posts, and as much much as I would especially love for him to read F4H's post, I couldn't stomach the thought of him seeing some of these comments.
I realize way too few people care about where we've been and how much Beamer has advanced both the football program and the university as a whole. Maybe I'm one of the lucky ones because I sat in the stands in the 80's watching games and I know first-hand what Beamer has done.
I wouldn't trade anything in the world for being a Hokie. Please don't forget what being a Hokie is all about.
We have to first look at ourselves and ask what will TRULY make us happy as a fanbase. My fear is that the only answer is a National Championship, and while not impossible, that could be too lofty of a standard. As a society, I see more and more need for instant gratification. It's been only several years since we were in a BCS game, but to hear fans talk we have been in the toilet for a decade. Stop and think how truly special it is that we haven't had a dip like this over the past 20 years. And, keep in mind that in that period, we have averaged something like a top 30 recruiting class year in and year out (somebody can check me on that). So, then the argument becomes that Beamer and Foster just don't value recruiting. That's preposterous to think that coaches wouldn't care about the talent they have. Truth is, the tidewater now gets hit hard by out-of-state schools when it used to not (So, Mr. 17 year old super star, would you like to play for Florida State in 70 degree weather all year or come to Virginia Tech in the snow and ice?). I guess my point is this...winning is very difficult. It's even more difficult to do it consistently. There is no "Easy" button that you can purchase to make this formula work. Every D-1 team is trying to reach the same goal, that is what makes it competition. Let's all just wait a minute to see what the next phase of this team is before we go blasting away at something we might not ever get back.
Thanks for the post F4H! I appreciate you man!
Your comments took me back to 30 minute trips up 81 with my old man, a former walk-on DB himself, to go see our beloved Hokies and his former teammate "Frank" take the gridiron! To falling asleep on the way up to the game hearing the voice of a young Bill Roth & Mike Burnop after a tough Saturday morning of sandlot 4yds. and a cloud of dust football! Your comments took me back to chants of "Who's #1" in '90 after we upset that overrated bunch from Charlottesville and the 2-8-1 '92 season where it felt like we were in the game with almost everybody and I remember Dad saying, "I hope we stick with him one more year...." Man I'm glad we did! This year feels a lot like that 2-8-1 season and now I'm telling my own boy....."I hope we stick with him for a few more years..." this time for much different reasons! Thanks again for the post F4H! GO HOKIES!
Beamer deserves one more year (at least) he said at the start of the season that there would be ups and downs. We have a talented team and they can do some damage next season.
However, Shane needs to be moved to Special Teams Coach and we need to hire a true RBs coach. Jones Suggs in Harmony are both available as well as David Wilson. Thoughts.
David Wilson is training for the Olympics.
Just because you played running back, does not mean you can coach running back. And you don't have to have played the position to be a good coach.
I don't see where RB coaching has been a problem.
All last year our RBs did not fumble a single time and there was some nice improvement going in skill especially in Edmunds until he broke his leg.
The 3 fumbles against Miami was such an aberration that we were shocked. Then again, we were on our #4 and 5 RB except Williams.
Williams has dropped one before but, he's the only guy with multiple drops.
A big reason why we have had some struggles on special teams has to do with the the necessity of Frank having to move away from his theory on ST.
Frank relies on his veteran players on ST but with all the injuries and lack of depth he cannot put his best guys there. ST play makes guys run T each other at full speed increasing significantly thr possibility of injury. If you don't have a backup for Fuller then you can't put him in the best place to make plays.
For instance, Stohman looks to be a good return man for punts with the possibility to be great but, Frank has said he can't put him on kickoff returns too. Possibility for injury then goes up to much and they need him as backup at CB. So Coleman, Newsome and Coles trade that job around.
For an insight into this from Frank, check out the interviews after Alabama last year where it was ST that was the weak point.
Just wanted to add on a side note that you've been excellent on these boards in the past few days. Have enjoyed reading your input and viewpoints and you have expressed those viewpoints in such a positive manner. Nothing but legs for you, Egbert!
Thanks.
I'll probably need t go back to being a curmudgeon soon.
I've thought about it and thought about it and thought about it and thought about it some more. Furrer is correct in just about everything he says here, except for one thing: not being able to be compared to Paterno in his later years.
It's not in my nature to be an optimist -- the world lets me down in a shocking manner almost every single day. But, I think there's hope for us as Hokies, and here's why. JoePa was in the discussion in '03 and '04 as being too old, too senile, game's passed him by, etc., and for good reason: his '03 team went 3-9 and his '04 team went 4-7, and the few years even before that weren't the best records ever. [I am not talking about the NCAA's bullshit vacated wins situation here. That was one overreach of the highest magnitude, all things considered.]
Then Penn State turned a serious corner.
2005 11-1 with an Orange Bowl win
2006 9-4 with an Outback Bowl win
2007 9-4 with an Alamo Bowl win
2008 11-2 with a Rose Bowl trip
2009 11-2 with a Capital One Bowl win
Now, PSU off-field happenings aside, that's a remarkable run for a team being coached by a late-70/early-80-years-old man.
So, maybe Frank's right when he says, "Wait 'til next year."
Maybe we're on the verge of ending a couple shitty years (by our standards) with a hot streak that'll last right through the end of Frank's contract.
Maybe...I don't know.
But now I have hope.
I'm right there with you. I'll trust Frank on our prospects next year. I think we just need a clean new slate and need to forget about this season.
I might humbly submit that Paterno, like Bowden, was doing very little actual football coaching in the post-2000 years. Not sure when he really stepped aside and became a program figurehead, but somewhere in there he relinquished a lot of the on-field coaching to his assistants and coordinators.
You make a valid point, but how much "actual football coaching" gets done at the HC level, anyway? Frank does Pride & Joy only because he's always done it. Francis has a headset, but he's not calling in the plays to Brewer or the defense. I don't disagree with the figurehead assessment, but it's not like JoePa was wandering the sidelines looking for his bowl of Werther's Original, either. [He may totally have been. It would explain all the shouting and angered looks.]
I was on the fire Frank Beamer wagon. But I've really thought about it. I'm just not convinced that Beamer has forgot how to coach. I do think we need to fire Loeffler because he's a garbage of an offensive coordinator. I also believe we are a stud QB away from being a playoff contender. We've got an ESPN 300 Logan Byrd who will be our stud QB in the future. We're on the brink of an amazing recruiting class that can completely change VT football. I will give Frank another season. If next season is like this then it is his time for Beamer to go and I think he will know that also.
A post-beamer world truly scares me because I don't know what it holds. We could end up hiring a Muschamp, Kiffin, or Oregeron. Schools like USC and Florida can recover a lot easier from a bad hire than Virginia Tech because they still recruit at a high level. One bad hire from us can put us back 15 years. I'll take my chances on Beamer for another year.
You like Byrd? You like Durkin and Ford? Guess who was their main recruiter? I don't know if he is the QB Whisperer, but a lot of people seem to believe that his QB Coaching skills is his major talent.
I agree that he is not the ideal OC, but I'm still willing to give the man three years. BTW, we are only in his 2nd year. How many years did we tolerate Bryan Stinespring?
I was also considering the Beamer-exiting route, and even expressed some thoughts on here. But after some more thought I would have to agree with you. After last years recruiting class and this upcoming one, I am excited to see what Beamer can do. If there is no improvement in the next 1-2 seasons then it might start to concern me. At this moment, moves are being made and it appears this program is improving behind the scenes, I'm excited for the coming years.
Funny thing that a bunch of people forget is that the new coaches put in a lot of work to get those recruits.. Had we not made the big changes we don't get a lot of the kids that are making big plays for us this year. Yes Beamer has a big say in recruiting but the individual coaches should get a ton of credit too.
2014 Recruiting Class by Coach
Moorehead- Isaiah Ford, Melvin Keihn & Cameron Phillips
Grimes- Eric Gallo, Billy ray Mitchell, Colt Petit & Tyrell Smith
Loeffler- Durkin, Ford & Shai
Stinespring- Jaylen Bradshaw, Xavier Burke & Terrell Edmunds
Foster- Travon McMillian, Vincent Mihota & Steve Sobczak
Brown- Ricky Walker & Marshawn Williams
Shane- Minor, Payne, Reavis, DJ Reid & Tabyus Taylor
Torrian- Holland & Stroman
Yea but Durkin and Ford are redshirting and Shai got hurt. THANKS LOEFFLER.
I'm hoping this is Sarcastica right?
If not- Shai's injury was a freak thing, he got rolled up on from behind and could happen to anyone.. IE Laquon Treadwell this past week.
Ford/Durkin are obviously projects in the work but IMO Ford could really challenge Brewer in the Spring/upcoming Fall
Yes it was sarcastica. Just trying to lighten the mood and maybe extinguish a few torches and dull a few pitchforks around these parts.
Agree 100%. Stinesspring has done a GREAT job at his new position and Grimes did a great job while he was here and SS is beginning to follow. And as much as people love to hate on Lefty, he has done a great job as well.
This thread had a valiant purpose, but its been taken control of by others with other agendas. My recommendation:
I've gone back and forth in my head and actually thought about this over past few days. The thoughts get clearer the further away from the game it gets.
I ultimately think most of the fans can agree with the sentiment made in the article that in an ideal world Beamer realizes he is getting into the territory of not being to carry on the program the way he wants it to succeed and would retire after beating UVA to keep the bowl streak alive. Leave a hero in a nice ceremony in the bowl game.
If Beamer doesn't decide to do that I'll of course still support the program and be a fan of the team with emotions going up or down every Saturday. Of course I'd go to games when I can but probably not spend as much money and I'd have to think about the yearly donation level.
In the end college football is a business but it's ultimately the memories that make college football. I would want a fond memory of when Beamer leaves rather than a regrettable memory of kicking out the coach that made the program enjoyable.
I do still currently think that if Beamer followed what he said in his book he'd look in the mirror and give himself that fairy tale ending.
Young team. New leadership with Jack Tyler and Logan Thomas out of Blacksburg. We will be back in 2015, but I've been saying that for these last two seasons. I have faith in Beamer! Beamer turned this program into a national contender after being given a sanctioned program from Dooley. Beamer will know when to leave. I don't think Beamer is going to let his hands destroy this program.