Because why the hell not?
I wanna revisit the losses this season.
ECU - After the offense came out flat and the defense gave up 21 points in the first quarter, both units stiffened. the offense clawed its way back to post 21 unanswered points and tie the game with 1:20 remaining. The defense then allowed the Pirates to score the winning touchdown sixty-four seconds later.
Georgia Tech - Probably Michael Brewer's worst game this season. There wasn't much wrong with the offensive game plan, but there was a whole hell of a lot wrong with quarterback play. And we still led with 8:03 left in the game. Brewer's third interception was the backbreaker.
PITT - 26 rushing yards. We were without Shai, Juice and Trey. We could never get it going on the ground and our one-dimensional offense wasn't enough.
Miami - We ate a dick. Offense was awful. If not for a garbage time TD by Leal we would have ended the no-shutout streak.
BC - Brewer had probably his best game, but we still couldn't run through a wet paper bag. Kept it close all game, finally took the lead by a point in the 4th but couldn't contain Murphy all day. And my God that was one ugly onside kick.
Wake Forest - We didn't just shit the bed, we shit through the bed.
There are obviously massive problems on O right now, and the game Lefty called against Wake was probably worse than any game I ever saw Stiney call, but I look over the body of work this season and I just can't put all 6 of our losses on Loeffler. ECU was a team loss, GT was on Brewer, Pitt was probably on Lefty for not being able to find a ground game, Miami was definitely on Lefty, BC was at least equally on the D for not having an answer for Murphy, and Wake was 100% Loeffler. It was a hell of a time for him to screw the pooch.
I look at this and I wonder, could we be experiencing a recency effect because the defense struggled early in the season and the offense is struggling as we close it out? There are no excuses for what we saw against Wake. More damning is that we've seen the offense look that bad once already against Miami. And to be honest, I'm not really even arguing that Loeffler shouldn't be fired. But I am saying that we can't blame this entire dumpster fire of a season on him.
Comments
years of recruiting issues. Defense can turn a 3-star recruit into a 5 star. But offense can't even turn a 4-star running back into being able to get a single carry. We need Stinespring at OL
Sarcastica?
I would prefer Searels. Stiney is doing a quite fine job with the TEs.
Y u do dis
I'm dyin
For a devil's advocate argument I expected to walk away saying "ok, maybe I'm overreacting just a little." -- Nope.
Prediction: Trey and CJ run for 200 and we drop 35 on the Wahoos just to muddy the waters going into contract decision time for Loeffler.
Agreed. I'm a Loeffler advocate (as if I had to say so after my page-long soliloquies I've posted the last few days.
I spit all over my monitor.
For as bad as we've looked this year, it is definitely interesting to note that every single loss was a one-score game except Miami. We were almost always in a position to win. And all of our victories, save Duke, were at least two-touchdown victories.
They say the progression of a team that is being built is:
Lose by a lot -> Lose by a little -> Win by a little -> Win by a lot
I wonder if we're in the first or second stage of this.
I'd feel better about the near-misses if we were playing good teams.
And Ohio State is....
GT: 9 wins
ECU: 7wins, clearly played much better earlier in the year (we did play them a week before they dropped 70 on UNC)
BC: Bowl team, absolutely smacked USC-w, *that* close to beating FSU. No pushover there. Also, we scored more on them than Crablegs & co.
Pitt: Meh, up-and-down, fighting for a bowl game this week.
Wake: Matchup nightmare, they're almost identical to us. Solid defense, offense in rebuilding mode.
I see 2 games on there against mediocre-to-bad teams, and 4 against solid-to-good teams.
I totally agree with this. We did lose some nailbitters to some pretty good teams this year and will bet the GT will be a handful for both UGA and F$U.
I'm sick of hearing this nightmare matchup stuff. Wake was winless in ACC play. They lost to Louisiana-Monroe and Utah State. I don't care if they have a good defense. Should we not be able to beat a team with a good defense? We outmatch them in talent at every position. We got outplayed at our own game, good defense and shitty offense. I still remain hopelessly optimistic that we will beat UVA though.
Active and aggressively-blitzing front, with excellent corners. That's the textbook definition of a matchup nightmare for a team with young receivers and struggles in blitz pick-up. And their defensive front talent > our offensive front talent (except Teller and possibly Gibson).
It's the same way our front and secondary were a matchup nightmare for OSU. The Buckeyes haven't seen anything like Bud's D since then, and it's no coincidence Barrett looks like a superstar now (although he's definitely improved since September, I'll give him that).
You act like the coaches just looked at the game film and just accepted the match up and conceded the loss. They are supposed to game plan around our weaknesses to exploit our strengths. Well, we clearly didn't do that because all I hear is how it was a nightmare matchup, meaning they did exactly what we thought they would do with no resistance. We should not have lost that game. We were 15 point favorites! Even if that was probably a little too optimistic, it still means that people thought we would overcome Wake's strengths to win comfortably. Constantly going back to their corners as the reason we put up a goose egg is just skirting the fact that we blew it due to the fact that we got out-coached and out-performed because we are a terrible team.
I'm not saying we should have lost or put up anything close to the abysmal performance we did, but acting like Wake was going to be an easy win because of their record is just ridiculous.
Did you see who they lost too? Someone that bad loses for a reason; might have some good aspects to the team, but they usually have terrible aspects in all the other parts. I don't think it is ridiculous to say that that should have been an easy win. We saved a special kind of suck for that game. One that if we had played like that against our previous opponents, we would have not scored for 4 consecutive games. But maybe my already low expectations for this team are still too high. Hopefully, we get some changes this offseason so that we can be competitive next year. I can't go another year of being bad, it's my last year in Blacksburg!
Well, look at the game then. Our defense dominated, JC had another strong game, where did the breakdowns happen that killed drives? The passing game. Receivers couldn't get separation in time for Brewer to get rid of the ball, he took sacks, and the offense sputtered.
Shoot, do what I did and just stick around for another half decade or so.
You have my condolences. My step-daughter is also a '15. I feel for y'all, and I feel for the seniors on this team.
The fact that a winless in ACC play in November 2-8 Wake Forest squad can legitimately be called a 'matchup nightmare' for our team, more than anything shows just how far we have fallen over the last few years.
Our starting RT is a D-III transfer who played DT a few months ago. That's how far the program has fallen.
and that above has 0 to do with any of the new coaches that were brought in 2 years ago. So for people to complain about Loeffler, Searels and I would say Shane are crazy.. Its 100% on top dog and the poor recruiting we did for 3 years.
We almost have more OL recruits/commits in 2015 class than we had from 2010-2013 that's the real issue
I think realistically it's more like:
Lose by a lot -> Lose by a lot more -> Lose by a little -> Win by a little -> Lose by a little -> Win by a little more -> Lose by a little ->Win by a lot
I too am not ready to give up on Loeffler or the Frankinator just yet - just sayin. I may be a hopeless homer but I still think this team could be VERY good next year, but we need those extra practices a bowl game would bring.
If we lay another rotten egg like WF this week, all bets are off and I may change my mind, but for now:
We need to back our guys and coaches this week and make the stadium ROCK! GO HOKIES!!!!!
Me too, pal and I really appreciate positive comments like this.
It's not only the poor performance at Wake, but we were told Lefty was a QB guru type guy, and I don't see Brewer as improving as the year goes on, if anything he is regressing.. and that has to be taken into account when looking at Leftys job performance also
I am getting tired of this statement being thrown out as fact. Can someone please give me hard numbers to back it up? Because one stat that comes to mind is INTs and he definitely threw more early in the season.
Brewer, first 6 games had an Adj QB rating under 30 only once, the last 5 games has an Adj QB rating under 30 four times
Not to mention in the game reviews here, it has been mentioned more than once that he isn't even setting the proper blitz protection
Well that if he's who sets Blitz protection. Sometimes that's on the center.
I dont know what I think about a made up ESPN Stat. When I look at this Passer Rating and other stats I dont see a huge drop off.
In the first month of the season he averaged 261 ypg and 65 completion % , since then 188 ypg 58 completion % .. I just don't know how to describe that as anything but a pretty sizable drop off
By your logic then he dropped off the most the first month since his passing percentage against W&M was 76.7 on 8/30 and his worst passing percentage was 43.8 on 9/27. These are his season high and low as well. He threw 10 ints in that first month as well.
Since then he has "Regressed" to around 60% completion percentage and only 3 ints.
I would say that he has stabilized the last two months and is much more consistent now.
Not my logic, was originally referring to the eyeball test.. but you wanted stats, and not just any stats, but specific stats.. and those stats say he has dropped ~30% passing yards and ~10% completion %. If you're happy with how he is coming along then fine, but consistently poor for the sake of being consistent shouldn't be the goal
Agree. Couldn't our QB issues partially lie with the inability of our OL to get it done for a variety of reasons? Also, is it possible that a QB like Brewer is a high risk / high reward type player? Meaning that if you hamstring his opportunities in order to eliminate INTs, are you also decreasing his ability to work in the system / rhythm / etc that he thrives in?
I know jack shit about football, so maybe I've got it all wrong...
I don't know if Lefty is as bad of a OC as it appears or not. Auburn fans warned he was not a good OC but if you look at Temple you would think he is a good OC. Our offense has not looked good for a really long time and there is one common factor and that is CFB. We have changed OC's and our offense remains the same. Awful! I don't know what it will take to fix our offense but watching our fall from contenders to bottom dwellers in the ACC is killing me! Lets hope Whit can find the answers to whats ailing our Hokies!
It will take people not knee-jerking their way out of a good OC, more than 1 recruiting cycle, and a few healthy tailbacks and linemen. When he was hired, we were all aware that this thing wasn't gonna be fixed immediately, and improvement won't always be linear when you're talking about young male human beings. Whit can do quite a bit to help right now, and that's all about the support he gives our current staff (moar recruiting positions plz), not scrapping them and finding a new one to be criminally under-supported.
Well said!
They thing is though, yes he had a good time at Temple. He had a terrible year at Auburn and two terrible years here. So that makes 3 terrible years and 1 good year. I think it is a little too optimistic to say that that 1 good year was representative of what he is truly like as a OC. Maybe it was the HC that made that offense good. I think if you look at it rationally, the 3 terrible years are less likely to be flukes than the good year. Like you said though, he was hired and we knew that we would not be a top 20 offense the next year. But, who thought we would regress? He has a job and he isn't performing at the level that is expected of a D1 OC at a top(ish) tier football program. I think it is time to cut the cord and stop wasting more years to let him get "acquainted" and hire someone who is proven at this level for more than a year or two.
The bane of this season was beating OSU. People's expectations were tempered and reasonable in August with the typical overenthusiastic prediction here or there. Then we beat OSU and BOOM everyone expected to win the division at bare minimum.
Take away the OSU win and I'm sure people would be much more calm and collected given the injuries. That is if we would have won a game we lost.
I would like to see Beamer stay and completely let Lefty loose with the offense. Beamer no longer has anything to lose by doing this. Things can't get worse on offense. I think we need to really see what we have in Lefty before Beamer leaves. I was hoping this would happen this year though, and now I'm not sure its possible.
I don't see where Beams has been hamstringing the offense.
He doesn't do it with the defense, I don't see him doing it during the game.
Lets be honest, if we remove Tyrod and put Brewer behind center in those years, the offense probably doesn't look much different from what we see now. I have a very difficult time putting too much blame on Loeffler when the issues we're seeing now are the exact same ones we saw under Stiney's regime. We have systemic issues on offense that didn't change with a new OC who was brand new to the program. That in itself is incredibly difficult to do (from where we were I'd say it was downright impossible) without other hidden factors being at play. The only difference between now and the 10 win streak was pure athleticism at QB that covered up a lot of the offensive issues allowing people to overlook them because we could do just enough in an ugly offense to win.
^^^^THIS
I agree. I also fully support Beamer's coaching philosophy; it is my preferred type of system given the appropriate talent. However, I don't see how we can possibly be successful in a ground and pound, traditional pro-style offense without excellent offensive line play. Conversely, I don't think we currently have the personnel to spread it out and threaten defenses with an athletic qb position either. We are stuck in the middle of two types of philosophies and don't have the players to properly execute either one.
I do think that Loeffler CAN be a great offensive coordinator with great players. However, I think he is a poor offensive coordinator with average players. His system is too complex and puts too much decision making on the players. He is a better offensive mind than Stiney, but lacks the ability to coach down to the players. Wake Forest was a prime example. We didn't need Tom Brady qb play to win that game. All we needed was a simple game plan designed to put up barely double digit points. Even the simplified wild turkey package could have done this, which is why Loeffler was criticized so much for pulling it too soon or not using it enough.
I think a little better OC work this year would have easily given us 2-3 more wins. That drastically changes the outlook of the season. However, a little better qb play or offensive line play would have done the same. This is the worst I've seen the VT qb situation since pre-Vick. That's not necessarily a terrible thing either; start naming schools that have a better run of success at qb over 15 years than VT. We were due a dip at some point.
^^^^^ THIS
If a Stinespring didn't have Tyrod 8 years ago, then maybe we would've had a season like this to unmask just how horrible of an OC he was without exceptional QB talent.
I'm glad that Loeffler's deficiencies aren't being masked by someone like Tyrod, because maybe now we'll actually move on quickly to someone who can coach instead of seeing horrible to mediocre offenses depending on the level of available talent for the next ten years.
It's not just at QB either. There is significantly less talent at every position, other than TE, than there was back when Stiney was coordinator.
This year just shows how much better Logan Thomas was than he was given credit for. That team had absolutely nothing last year offensively (even compared to this year) and still went 8-5....largely on his back.
Yes, yes, YES, A THOUSAND TIMES, YES! Sorry about the orgasmic outburst here, but oh my goodness... People gave LT3 so much heat and don't understand just how effin' good he was for this offense. Was he perfect? Nope, but neither was Luck at Stanford. However, he was what kept this offense going, and had he and his howitzer right arm been here this year..... oh man, that would've been epic.
I dunno, raw talent-wise I think we're better at all the skill positions (WR, TE, RB) than we have been in a very long time. Stanford, Ford, and Phillips I would put up there right now with any of our classes that we had. They are raw, but more times than not will catch anything you throw at them, including the near impossible throws to the sideline. That is something I cannot recall us ever having. Shai/Marshawn, when healthy, were playing at the very least close to the level we got throughout most of Tyrod's years. And right now, hands down we have the best crop of TEs in school history. The problem is, we have a QB who has no escapability from the pocket, rarely extends plays with his feet, and does not break for a big run up the middle when he sees a hole in front of him and nobody open. Put Tyrod behind center this year, I'm telling you we beat GT, Wake, Pitt, and BC. That gets us to 9 wins and a Coastal crown with a chance to get win #10 on Friday, just from better play from the QB himself. Does that solve ANY of our fundamental offensive issues? No, it just covers them up because we had the wild card QB in our favor behind center.
Honestly, maybe seasons like this is what we needed to make the coaches and fans truly realize just how bad the offense had gotten. You cannot keep relying on a QB with legs to bail us out every game, eventually you have to have some kind of an effective offense that works beyond 'if things break down, the QB will make it work'. Thing is, we are so much worse than where we thought we were, and we have been at this point for so long that I'm not sure Beamer really understands what it takes to get it good again.
Just thinking out loud....Harper, Royal, Hyman, Boykin, Coale, Wilford, King. Who am I missing? We have had some good talent at the receiver position over the years. I'm hoping you're right and Stanford, Ford, Phillips with Bucky thrown in end up being better than those guys. Now we just need somebody to distribute the ball.
Of course we have had some good talent, but we haven't had as much good talent on the roster at one time. Don't get me wrong, all those guys you listed were awesome and all time greats, but when you consider from Wilford to Coale you're talking about basically the VT all decade team vs this year's roster.
With that said, from what I've seen out of these guys this year, I don't have any doubt in the world if they keep progressing by the time they're all juniors and seniors, we'll have the most explosive and talented receiving crop we've ever had at one time at Virginia Tech. We just need someone who can get them the ball and an offense that is schemed to do it.
My bad for not clarifying. I agree with you based on what I have seen from them so far. It just got me thinking about the past skill guys. And curiously, got me asking, how the hell did we get those guys? I guess most weren't super highly recruited, but that's still a pretty good pool of guys for an offensive system that doesn't scream come to me so you can be an all american wide receiver.
Fundamentally disagree here.
There is some raw athletic talent, but it can't compare to the RB rotation of Wilson, Evans, and Williams. Hyman, Morgan, Royal towards the end of their time at Tech was far far far better than what Tech has now, and Boykin/Coale/Roberts/Coles was also way more scary during Tyrod's senior/LT's first year. That's not even mentioning the difference in OL talent.
Our current WR corp could turn into an elite group over the next few seasons, but they aren't there yet. Our RB's haven't been able to stay on the field, but even if they did play every game I doubt they'd come close to the explosiveness we saw out of the golden years of Tech RB talent.
A lot of those offenses had the benefit of an offensive line that played light years better than our current unit. Sure, those Olines weren't world beaters, but they did a hell of a better job opening up holes and keeping our QB's jersey clean than they are now. I have this conversation with people all the time. An elite line can make an average RB look spectacular. A weak line can make an All-American look pretty terrible. Same with QBs. Every offense begins with the play of its linemen, and our current unit isn't necessarily holding up their end of the bargain. I know they're trying to, much want and desire can only get you so far in this world.
Ford is a serious talent I think. He has made a few catches that are not expected of a college athlete. He needs to bulk up a bit though.
Step 1: find the next Tyrod Taylor
Step 2: ?
Step 3: Championships
**edit** i take to long to type pretty much just rehashed everything that was said above me but wasnt there when i started typing
and to further add i think if you put tyrod in this offense and remove brewer we win all the close games. tyrod was a game changer. he turned forsure sacks into 12 yard or.....31 yard runs. its much easier to OC a 3rd and 5 than a 3rd and 10+ i dont know the stats but id say ive seen enough sacks that we more than likely lead the nation in 3rd and 10+. there is no tyrod walking through that door though but i do think it helped stineys #s look alot better than they really were as well as having RBs that could make nothing out of something. i love juice but you know what your going to get from him, he takes a hit in the back field hes going to get back to the line or maybe 1 or 2 yards, david wilson or ryan williams are ABOUT to take a hit in the back field they reverse directions jump cut and turn it into a 10+ play. right now our O is just not explosive and brewer doesnt have the arm strenght to throw it down field or the feet to scramble and allow a WR to break free. these things may or not be on lefty. but just as much as coaching put players in a position to succeed players can make bad coaching look good.
Agree.
Very well said. Frank used that 10-wins streak as justification for continuing what he was doing offensively while many fans could see the need for change on offense.
Current Hokie Depth Chart (Two Deep) by Class
Offense / Defense
Freshmen - 8 / 5
Sophomore - 5 / 7
Junior - 4 / 6
Senior - 5 / 4
The scary thing about those numbers is that it would be even more heavily underclassmen if it wasnt for injuries. College football, unlike college basketball, doesnt have nearly as many players that come in ready to play the game at this level.
I am not saying that Loeffler's game plans have been perfect but there have been many games where it appears he wanted to get more in depth but the general mistakes made by such an inexperienced group have made that nearly impossible. We have averaged eight penalties a game, costing us 66 yards on average which also makes running your game plan much more difficult when you are constantly in 3rd and long situations. Lastly, and its my biggest knock on Brewer, is that when you are in a 3rd and X situation, and you have receivers beyond the sticks, and you throw to your check down or an option way short of the first down. We have had way too many drives cut short by Brewer throwing to a receiver short of the first down this season. Still, those are mistakes that happen when you have so little experience on the field at almost every position that matters. You can only dumb it down so much and still be successful at the college level.
This for me is one of two big questions about Loeffler going forward. The offense has to be simple enough for the team to execute and complex enough to be difficult to defend. Loeffler needs to start out simple and add complexity gradually, while the position coaches bring the players along so that at each level they are able to execute the offense Loeffler calls. It seems to me that's one of the central responsibilities of the OC. And on game day, the only adjustment that can be made is the play calling. you can't expect the team to suddenly get better halfway through the game, but you can adjust your game plan.
Loeffler has failed spectacularly to match his play calling to his team.
I don't know if he will do better next year. I don't know if another coach would be able to walk in and do better. But next year, either Scot Loeffler will learn to match his game planning and play calling to the talent and experience on the field, or this offense will be really bad again.
I have to disagree with your statement on BC. The loss wasn't equally on Lefty or the offense. That loss was 100% on the defense. The offense while there was no running game, put up over 400 yards of offense with no turnovers. The offense did their job.
You made me go back and look at my statement about BC because I couldn't remember what the hell I said.
And that's being super generous toward the D.
In retrospect I probably just didn't want to overstate my case. We honestly couldn't ask much more from the offense than we got in that game. You just had me thinking I was saying that one was on the O, which I definitely didn't think I had said.
Yeah I agree with you, Lefty definitely gets a pass vs BC.
Yeah, my disagreement was on the "equally on the D". To my reading it sounded like both parts screwed up and the offense while ugly should have been able to get the job done with their stats.
I somewhat disagree about Miami. The offensive moved the ball solidly the first three drives of the 2nd half -- perhaps as well as it has for 3 straight drives all season -- only to get derailed by fumbles. I'm not naive enough to think those fumbles don't matter, but the offense as a whole was clicking in the 2nd half until it got completely demoralized by the fumbles.
I second this.
Point taken. I should have elaborated on the meaning of "ate a dick."
I.... I got nothing. Never thought I would ever see this phrase written in any form.
Certainly in the 1st half, the offense, er...uh...mmm...could have played better.
#analysis
I blame it all on Loeffler. 3 straight years he has had truly awful offenses, in an era of ridiculous offense.
#enoughexcuses