I'm putting fingers to keys in the aftermath of Josh Sweat committing to Florida State.
Josh's father, William Washington, spoke with Michael Clark of Scout.com.
Mr. Sweat mentioned Josh being "comfortable" was a major factor. Josh's mom mentioned the same requirement in previous interviews. Josh did as well. I think all college-bound teens need a sense of comfort at the school they attend. Those right fit requirements will vary from person to person.
However, the most revealing part of the interview was the conversation father and son had with Florida State head coach Jimbo Fisher last night.
"Coach Fisher has a lot of energy, Washington said. "I asked questions and so did Josh and we listened to the answers, and he cleared up some concerns I had. Everything he said resonated with us."
Is that when Fisher locked things up? Possibly.
In an interview with Evan G. Watkins of 247Sports conducted after Sweat chose Florida State, the 5-star prospect said he made up his mind at 2:00 or 3:00 AM this morning. Sweat spoke to all his suitors last night, but didn't let any of them know his decision. Jimbo and FSU seemingly had the best sales pitch and closing argument.
Watkins' interview had some other interesting nuggets of information.
Q: When did you let your family and (Oscar Smith) coach (Richard) Morgan know?
Sweat: "I actually let coach Morgan know today right before the ceremony. I let my mom know this morning. I woke her up and let her know."
Q: How were their responses?
Sweat: "I guess they were supporting me. I don't guess. I know they definitely were supportive. And I appreciate that a lot even if it wasn't their first choice. That means a lot."
Both Cav and Stinespring, two recruiters with a great track record, have mentioned the importance of winning over mom at the NOVA Hokie Club's recruit night events. In this case, it didn't even matter.
Q: What was the hardest school to turn down?
Sweat: "Probably Virginia Tech. Because I love everybody up there. I really do. (Hokies tight ends coach Bryan) Stinespring. All the coaches. I really felt that connection with them. You can't make everybody happy. I wish you could. They were probably the hardest to let down."
Tech tried and came up short. It happens, but it seems like that's the case more often than not for Tech right now especially when it comes to the state's best players.
J.C. Coleman, Sweat's former teammate at Oscar Smith, was shocked by the announcement. Coleman was also a vocal recruiter for the Hokies during his recruitment in 2011.
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!— J.C. Coleman (@jc_coleman4) December 10, 2014
He also helped give some insight into a recruit's, in this case Sweat's, decision process.
Hate when people blame coaches for recruiting. At the end of the day, it's about what's on the players heart!— J.C. Coleman (@jc_coleman4) December 10, 2014
Recruiting is way more than a coach selling you his program! It's more about personal fit for the individual. People don't understand that!— J.C. Coleman (@jc_coleman4) December 10, 2014
Sweat might be off the board, but it's still clear Virginia Tech is in desperate need of defensive ends this cycle. Dadi Nicolas and Ken Ekanem are All-ACC caliber players. Backsups Dewayne Alford and Seth Dooley didn't push for playing time or pop on film, and after that it's slim pickings. French is high on 2015 verbal Trevon Hill, but Tech needs to sign at least three ends this cycle.
247Sports reported three-star prospect Shelton Johnson (Atlantic / Delray Beach, Florida) plans to officially visit Tech this weekend.
Tech is still actively pursuing Houshun Gaines, but Miami, Virginia and Vanderbilt are too. If North Carolina offered the Nash Central (Rocky Mount, NC) star, all four aforementioned schools might all take a backseat to the Heels. Also, when Gaines announced his commitment to Florida, that time he realized he a non-committable offer after committing, he said, "Ultimately it came down to where I saw myself wanting to play football and where I would want to be, and I couldn't see myself at Virginia Tech if I wasn't playing football." That doesn't make me feel good about Tech's chances.
Atlee blue-chip linebacker / d-end Ricky DeBerry will announce on Dec. 19 at 10:00 AM and will pick among offers from Alabama, Michigan State, Oklahoma, Penn State, Tennessee, Texas A&M, Virginia and Virginia Tech.
The situation at defensive end is desperate enough that if Tech lands one of three from that group it's a win. Two of three and I'm dancing.
It will be interesting to see who the Hokies then pursue at end to fill its class. Bud Foster and Charley Wiles are two of the best in the business at developing prospects, but they need bodies to turn water to wine beer
Comments
Most of us have chose a much faster decompression...
Thanks for this in the midst of all the gloom on a couple of other threads.
re: dancing gif
i feel like CJ Reavis would be fun at parties.
I think we could win a dance-off against any team in the country. That counts for something right?
I heard next year's Coastal standings will be decided by a head coach dance-off. I like Frank's chances against Time Cop, CPJ, and the rest of the boys.
Good post. I concur with all points. This is tough, but no matter how much gets put into it, you are not going to win every recruiting battle. This isn't Playstation. It sucks. It really sucks.
As I said on Twitter, I really hope that some of the recent issues that the Hokies have had with players not making full recoveries from surgical procedures and injuries didn't factor into his decision, but as a kid with a potential big NFL payday coming off a major knee injury, it would have been a factor for me if I was him. In his interview with Evan Watkins last night, he even said, "I enjoy the people there and I believe the coaches down there will care for me being hurt."
I wonder if the increasing pressure on Beamer to right the ship combined with some recruiting misses has led to us being forced to play players before we'd like to? Not that we're sending guys out there that are still hurt or anything but we don't have the luxury of stowing away guys like Shai MacKenzie for a season because there isn't a capable backup.
My biggest complaint with Beamer over the years is that he tends to play the "short" game rather than thinking of the future. Imagine Tyrod with a redshirt year... Perhaps I'm just naive to the realities of win now college football.
Injuries forced his hand with a guy like MacKenzie more than anything. A healthy Edmunds backed up by Coleman and Williams, and thats not an issue.
Not sure if pressure is forcing his hand or if any and/or all of these should be questioned: training, nutrition, medical services, medical staff, etc...
With the volume of injuries that we seem to endure every year, with this year seeming to be particularly bad, makes you think something or things are amiss. This cannot just be bad luck.
I can't blame the kid, defending Nat. Champ getting ready to try for another with a ton of media attention, or a program that is seemingly on the down slope with a quickly aging coaching legend. Kids want the heat, can't blame them.
Beamer always used to redshirt guys. After Vick left early, he said he regretted not getting 3 years of play out of him. Since then he's been more willing to play guys as true freshmen. He also planned on redshirting Tyrod
But I don't think he felt like they were playing well as an offense. I do agree it would've been nice to have Tyrod in 2011, but 2008 was still a pretty good year and it resulted in our only BCS win.
Beamer kept the redshirt on Vick because he made a promise to his HS coach that he would, because his coach felt he needed a year of maturity under him first.
With Tyrod of course he planned to redshirt him but they new in pre-season practice that the offense was likely going to need a mobile QB. That's why they brought him dressed and ready to go in game 2 versus LSU. A circumstance you can blame on the younger, suckier Vick, Marcus.
EDIT: as per below, leg for you sir
*game 2
My problem isn't that we're not winning every recruiting battle. My problem is that when it comes to the elite talent, we're not winning any of the recruiting battles, especially with those in the commonwealth, which is supposed to be our bread and butter due to the developed relationships over the years.
Relationships with coaches only gets you in the door.
Getting in the door is VERY important, but a past relationship with coaches will not, nor should it, get a recruit to sign. I think in the past that recruits at times would take the word of the coaches/parents and go where they recommended, so previous relationships played a bigger role in eventually signing the recruit.
The young people currently making these decisions are more responsible for their individual choices and that means that what you are selling (campus, academics, lifestyle, future football prospects, etc.. ) is just as important as the relationships that got you in front of the recruit in the first place.
2012 class in state
#1 Eli Harold DE Virginia
Good player. Undisciplined versus the run. Would you take him over Dadi or Ekanem?
#2 Alex Carter DB Stanford
Honorable mention All Pac-12. Hurts that he went out of state
#3 Joel Caleb RB Virginia Tech
Bust so far
#4 Kwontie Moore LB Virginia
Will have to replace Max Valles. Has not been productive so far
#5 J.C. Coleman RB Virginia Tech
Decent the last three games. Hasn't lived up to initial expectation
#6 Deon Clarke LB Virginia Tech
Very good first season as a starter
#7 Korren Kirven DT Bama
Buried deeper than Bear Bryant on the Alabama DT depth chart
#8 Ken Ekanem LB Virginia Tech
Good first season as a starter and an excellent pass rusher.
#9 Trey Edmunds LB
When healthy, has been a very good (but underutilized) running back
Hmm... seems like so far the only guys who went elsewhere and were pretty good were Carter and Turner. Shall I continue? Sure!
Carry on!
I lol'd
This line of argument/debate obscures the forest for the trees and totally misses the point.
Is it reasonable to expect VT to have a top-5 (recruiting class) every year and recruit like Alabama and FSU are right now? No.
Is it reasonable to expect VT to consistently have a class somewhere between 10-20? Absolutely.
No VT won't pull in Deshawn Hand and Josh Sweat every year. But they shouldn't whiff on them every year either - plenty of schools with fewer resources are doing it. And they shouldn't be expected to win the ACC again until they can start signing players like that more often than they are now (which is not at all).
What's interesting to me is that FSU has plenty of talent to recruit from down there. They have no problem signing the best talent from Fla, Ala, Ga, etc... But when they get guys from Va, they're taking them away from an in conference rival. In fact they're taking them away from the only conference rival that's ever beaten them in the ACCCG. Win/Win FSU.
This is exactly how I feel.
I don't think it's quite fair to assume that those recruits who went to UVa over VT and haven't really panned out would also have the same lack of success at VT. Maybe I'm somehow biased, but I think VT's coaches would have done a better job getting them to play well...mostly because our coaches run on beer, not wine.
I'll get slaughtered for this but I think if we were SEC some of these results would be different.
I will bite on how much impact it has had. Four stars and up only.
Top 10 2011 in VA Per Rivals
#1 Curtis Grant LB-Ohio State
Barely started as a senior. Got beat out by a true freshman. BUST
2. Demetrious Nicholson DB-UVA
Average corner with injury issues
3. Landon Turner OL UNC- would have perhaps been an upgrade at right guard. Has garnered some All-ACC consideration. Hasn't impressed me against VT (wasn't very healthy this year)
4. Travis Hughes LB
Bud really wanted Hughes and Stephone Anthony. But from what you have seen of Hughes at UNC, do you think he would have started ahead of Tariq Edwards or Deon Clarke?
5 Dominique Terrell Virginia
Plays WR at UVA. After 14 catches last year, Terrell didn't register a catch this year. I am not sure if he is hurt, but he hasn't been productive.
Transferred to Liberty. Fart noises.
#7 Corey Marshall DE Virginia Tech
Had a great season. Most productive in-state player in the class other than UVA safety Anthony Harris, who was a 3 star rated 13th.
#8 Ronny Vandyke DB Virginia Tech
Injuries have prevented him from making an impact.
Recruiting is effing retarded ain't it? I seriously think I would go crazy if I were a coach. You have to tell these kids that they are the future retired jersey in lane stadium, and then six months later explain to them how the walk-on just took their position in the three deep.
Yep... turns out the best kid that the Hokies missed out on was a three star safety. Imagine this secondary with Anthony Harris in Bonner's spot.
So is our staff just that much better at identifying talent than Rivals, or is Virginia (the state) not as stacked as it's seemed? It's hard to say without going back and looking at who we really pursued out of all these players. From my quick skim it looks like Joel Caleb and Ronny Vandyke are the only signings that really haven't worked out for us. Is that better scouting, or just getting lucky and being beaten out on busts?
You can't take what a player accomplished at one program and extrapolate what contributions the Hokie coaching staff would have gotten.
Curtis Grant and Travis Hughes... who knows what Bud Foster would have been able to turn them into. Hell, look at what he did with an athletically average Jack Tyler and Chase Williams. Bud is the best inside linebacker coach in the country, nobody has his LB's better prepared week in and week out than Bud. IMO the biggest issue he has had has been a lack of athleticism at that position.
The player that Curtis Grant turned into after four years at Ohio State is a different player than he would have been after four years at Tech. How much better or worse? It's impossible to say. Same could be said for any secondary player.
That wasn't the point. The specific point was that a rating system won't dictate success, and that VT's program was not irreversibly damaged by some of these guys going elsewhere, which is what Alum07 suggested.
Ultimately, part of what has derailed VT is that guys who were supposed to be stronger recruits have not panned out, and the biggest criticism of the staff should be more focused on the guys who have not been able to find a role for guys like Caleb, Van Dyke, etc.
Fair enough and I agree completely that too many talented athletes haven't been able to find the field but
my point is that it's impossible to say how much damage those recruiting misses caused. Who knows what those players might have accomplished while on campus. I do think this program would be better off it had landed some of those recruits.
2013 class
1 Derrick Green RB Michigan
Hasn't pissed a drop for a bad Wolverines team
#2 Jonathan Allen DE Alabama
Would have been perfect as a Hokie DE. Bulked up to play at Bama. Has lost some explosiveness, but is a productive but not dynamic player for the top team in the country
#3 Christian Hackenberg QB Penn St.
Not really a VA kid. From PA, sent to FUMA. He would have been wonderful to have, but didn't have as good a season as many expected under Franklin.
#4 Taquan Mizzell RB Virginia
Shows promise in the passing game, but didn't beat out Kevin Parks for the starting job. We aren't talking Thomas Jones here.
#5 Wyatt Teller DE Virginia Tech
Ton of promise. He may not have made All-ACC, but I bet if you polled the guys he played against, they would tell you they hated going against him.
#6 Holland Fisher DB Virginia Tech
He has four years to show something. Total mystery right now.
#7 Ryan Burns QB Stanford
Not on Stanford's two deep yet
#8 E.J. Levenberry Jr. LB Florida St.
Currently the backup Will linebacker behind Terrance Smith. I think he will be a good player when he gets on the field, but hasn't produced yet.
#9 Doug Randolph LB Notre Dame
Played 6 games and registered one assist for Notre Dame after a redshirt year.
#10 Bucky Hodges QB Virginia Tech
Quickly growing into one of the best pass catching TE's in the country
#11 Tim Harris DB Virginia
Average corner. Toasted by the Hokies last year. Got hurt and his replacement was beaten for two huge plays by the Hokies this year.
#12 Matt Rolin LB Florida
Hasn't broken into the two deep yet at Florida
Yeah, I thought Jonathan Allen was from VA... Why does everyone think that he is from Alabama?
Because he lived most of his childhood there I believe.
Yep, grew up in Bama, just happened to be in Virginia for high school. Really wasn't a chance of him going anywhere but Bama.
Man Hackenberg would have been a great get.
Derrick Green was the starting running back before he got hurt... not sure what you're talking about here. Ran for 170 against app state and 130 against miami (oh). I obviously wouldn't say they are great teams by any stretch of the imagination but I know tech fans would LOVE to have this guy. He'll get drafted in the nfl when it's time.
Hackenberg is suffering from losing his QB coach, who is now an NFL head coach. Hack didn't mince words when O'Brein left, saying that the reason he came to PSU was to be coached by BO'B, which was a very relevant decision in his recruiting process. He has the tools to be one of the best in the country. Rahne has the pedigree to be a great QB coach, but he won't become BO'B while Hack is still here.
With the upheaval at Penn State going on during his recruitment, if he thought he would be with the same coaching staff this entire career he was a bit naive.
Wasn't De'Shawn Hand in that class as well?
Currently, 3rd on Alabama's depth chart? Did he RS?
Either way, I've never understood why top recruits would want to go and sit instead of play immediately. Especially, if the ultimate goal is going pro. Why wait and only be able so show your stuff for one, maybe two years tops?
Because those players are still benefiting from four to five years of world class coaching and are still getting drafted, highly, after only one to two years starting.
... and the risk of injury is low during the redshirt year.
He didn't redshirt. He had 7 tackles in 9 games (two sacks, one was in garbage time against Texas A&M)
I was not addressing the specific case of Hand, but the general question of why a blue-chip prospect would be willing to take a redshirt year.
I never thought of the injury topic and it makes a lot of sense. Makes me wonder if he had not gotten injured if that would have helped our chances and I also wonder if Facyson re injuring he leg had some weight in Sweats decision.
It's crazy how many highly rated DE we missed on but were finalists for this cycle. 4 of the top 10 in America. Sweat, Ferrell, Taylor, dalton. Not to mention the Barnett deco mitt early. And last cycle hand, Holmes, etc
These are the posts I come here for.
With that avatar, you are certainly prepared for the recruiting threads.
I have to wonder if anything changes for Sweat if Byron Cowart commits to Florida State next week. He was thought to be a Florida lean until the coaching change there, now there is alot of talk he will flip to FSU. He is currently the top rated defensive end on ESPN's rankings. Not sure if DE getting an additional body will make a difference to Sweat though since it sounds like he is planning to enroll in January.
From his earlier comments Cowart would only solidify Sweat's decision even more. He has said he wants to play with an elite defense around him, so another DE taking up blockers would only be better I would think.
Interesting take, since DEs never play beside each other....
I'm perplexed by this comment.
I was referring to the idea of how another DE would eat up blocks for Sweat. It's not like Ekanem takes on blocks intended for Dadi, or vice versa.
Well if the opposite-side DE takes a double-team, that leaves 3 offensive lineman for the remaining 3 defense lineman (in a 4-man front) which would gives the other end a 1-on-1 matchup...
Ah, yes, there is that.
This is why I was confused. Don't have to be beside each other to change how the entire line will block. Offensive blocking schemes and defensive schemes are a little more complex than that. Kind of a similar idea for Defensive backs. Corners like to play opposite of a "shutdown" corner because it creates more opportunities for them to make plays, and defensive lineman like shutdown DBs because it gives them more time to get to the QB.
Commonly referred to as the Moore-Engleberger effect.
Slowly being revised to the Dadi-Ekanem effect.
As you can probably tell, I was looking at it another way. I was thinking of how Marshall and Ekanem feed off each other, as well as Nigel (get well, Maddy) and Dadi.
you obviously weren't watching the lolUVA game, see here is Dadi and Ken right next to each other
When D-Ends collide.
A thing of beauty, it is.
What a fucking let down. I know it's basically like gambling with these 18year olds but I think with all of these misses over the years with Virginia kids, the VT coaches have to look in the mirror. Frank Beamer needs to get a "salesman" if you will on his staff to sell Tech.
What if we had a head coach that was a salesman???
then we might have Mike London.
Or Dabo. Lets see what he can do with no Chad Morris.
I said on his Staff, Not Head coach. In a Perfect world---Mike Vick wins Super Bowl retires and comes to VT to Lead Recruiting for 757. Can you imagine having a home visit from Vick as a 17 year old 5 Star kid who grew up in 757??
You know, I don't think I saw Mike Vick all year. Of course I am watching on TV in Alabama. When was the last time he was on the sidelines?
Sunday
I think he means on VTs sidelines. I wonder how much distance the whole Vick scandal put between him and the ath dept? I know Beamer stayed in touch, but I wonder if the ath dept sees him as bad PR.
If I remember correctly he was at the spring game one year after that happened when he was back in the NFL. I don't remember seeing him on the field this year (though I was only able to make the trip for three games) but during the UVa game, on a commercial break, they played a video with a ton of former Hokies on the video board saying "I'm so-and-so, and I'm a Hokie" and Vick was one of them (who drew the most cheers). Should note too that the Jets bye week this year fell on a weekend when Tech was on the road.
he came back for a spring game a couple years back and did a signing at the book store the line was down main street for it and it was like 50bucks a sig. and then he was at the spring game that year seemed to get a really good reception from the fans and players. i think i remember them saying that was his 1st time back in blacksburg since he got out of the big house.
I was talking about our sidelines, not a sideline
I was curious of how to get the football staff to consider getting my nephew to play for VT.
He's currently signed to play at EKU but being in Blacksburg would mean he'd be a lot closer to my sister who lives in Maryland. While at Niceville High School, he played for the state championship during his Senior year as a defensive end.
Here's a link to his hudl:
http://www.hudl.com/athlete/2509986/marqui-daniel
Just throwing this out there but would be interested to hear your feedback.
I like him! IMHO he would fit pretty naturally into what Bud has in store. Good luck!
He looks very good and fast, needs to put some weight on.
While at Thanksgiving, he finished a whole sweet potato pie by himself; just casually eating it like it was a bowl of cereal. I cried inside a little knowing that it would go straight to my hips and belly and never come off again. lol
corey marshal esq... very quick off the ball.
i haven't had a chance to watch the tape, not that i know anything about evaluating football talent.
but you could try hitting up Thomas Guerry on twitter. maybe i'm wrong but i believe he's involved with recruiting. and he's definitely social media savvy which makes me think he'd be inclined to respond to you.
He is involved with recruiting, but he works more on the behind the scenes stuff. He's not the one directly talking to recruits or decided which recruits to pursue and offer. He told me he lets the coaches make all of the phone calls and do the talking to the recruits because that's who the players want to talk to.
i figured he might be a good way to get a foot in the door.
Cool, thanks...I'll see about that lead.
Although, ultimately, it would be my nephew's decision to go to school in Blacksburg (it IS the best college in Virginia) but it would be pretty awesome to see him play there. ^_^
Damn the dudes quick
6'3" , 215 lb. Bud Foster could develop him into the perfect weapon ala Kam Chancellor.
he also has a black belt in karate ^_^
... which speaks well for his flexibility, fast-twitch reflexes, and balance, not to mention anaerobic stamina.
i asked bitter this same question in one of his chats and he linked me to a recruiter for VT on the schools page but it does have an email address. i wish i had saved it now. but you can indeed alert them by sending an email now if it gets read or not or actually looked into i dont know.
Thanks, I'll check it out!
Getting a talent like Josh Sweat right now was always going to involve a lot of luck. Him growing up in Virginia, attending the same high school as the current starting tailback as well as a future VT commit, playing a position that Tech has had a lot of success with recently... Pretty lucky for VT to even be in the conversation. A 6-6 team who has fielded three consecutive teams that weren't part of the national conversation just can't expect to land that type of talent.
I'm not going to assume that the coaches could have done anything more than they did to land Sweat, if only because that is what Sweat is implying himself. Look at the exposure that FSU can offer a student-athlete who has dreams of going pro as compared to what VT can offer right now.
All hope isn't lost though, there is a road map to success... but it starts on the football field. Virginia Tech is going to have to turn things around where the matter the most. On the field. If we don't start winning more games and make ourselves nationally relevant again, we're never going to contend for the elite talent required to win national championships.
There is an opportunity here. If the defense continues to develop and stay healthy, then Foster could field one of the elite units in CFB next season. If the offense can stay healthy, I think Loeffler is capable of fielding an above average unit. If those two things happen, Tech can compete for an ACC title...
Then the coaching staff has to use the narrative of "Hall of Fame Coach Beamer and revamped offensive staff have finally found their second wind, let's get Beamer his national championship" to go win some significant talent on the trail. This is the only way Beamer has a chance to compete for a Championship... win on the field SOON, turn that momentum into a huge recruiting class.
The best counter I could make to that is South Carolina keeping Marcus Lattimore and Jadeveon Clowney home after some pretty mediocre consecutive 6-6 type seasons. Those signings transformed their program. VT could have done the same thing, with Sweat as the catalyst.
Josh Sweat remembers our successes. We've been recruiting him since he was in the 9th grade. There was a very good chance of keeping him home.
Unfortunately, we are running out of momentum with these kids. The future classes will be more difficult, with VT playing in BCS type bowls becoming more of a distant memory.
Also, those kids were lured by playing in the SEC.
UVA blew, they still do, and they scored on Blanding, Brown, Harold, etc......what is our problem?
Yes, UVA's ability to grab those recruits did generate a lot of questions.
So I just re-read your take from last February (a month after the hiring of Loeffler). A cycle later, do you still think it was mostly UVA's relationship with The Thoroughbreds, or more London vs our staff?
Absolutely, unquestionably the thoroughbreds.
Its not luck. Our recruiting staff worked their asses off this year to get us in a position to seal the deal, and we couldn't. Jimbo got in there to his house last night after being picked up and driven there by the Oscar Smith AD and closed the deal in person. I understand that Frank just went under the knife, and I do excuse him for not being able to do that, but at a certain point, your closer has to close. We routinely have the pieces lined up (I mean, we were right there with Nnadi, Dalton, and Sweat, and likely will be with Settle as well) and we're there on the launching pad ready to go, only to routinely come up empty when its time to find a pilot.
Our fundamental disagreement is on the appeal of Virginia Tech to recruits. There's more to recruiting than "being a closer". You can take the greatest recruiter of all time, but you aren't going to convince a 5 star athlete to play at JMU.
I think the deck was stacked so high against VT when going head to head vs FSU that there is no way the coaches would have been able to get Sweat or those others to sign. Not without at least sporting a better than .500 record. There's work to be done on the recruiting front, but a lot of that has to do with the quality of the program as is.
Derrick Nnadi chose the school he wanted to attend at two o'clock in the morning the night before his announcement. Josh Sweat did the same. Don't really see how saying things are stacked against us holds water. Bad programs can recruit well, it's happening as we speak. The difference is they have staffs who are capable of recruiting. We have maybe three good recruiters combined on the whole staff. Not ace recruiters, mind you, just a few decent ones.
How fair is it to blame our record when during the fabled 10-win streak, we weren't pulling these guys either?
That's my thing, people keep saying recruiting is improving, but it really isn't. We are modernizing our approach a bit, but really all that's doing is helping us keep up. If you look at objective measures, this class is exactly the same as all the rest.
Recruiting IWII Under Frank Beamer. We pull in 25th ranked classes +/- 2 or 3 spots each year. We generally don't land top 100 talent , in state or out if they don't have Fuller as their surname.
Thats it, that's what our recruiting is. It's not objectively good or bad it just is, but an honest interpretation of the facts should lead one to accept that it's not really going to get any better under Beamer.
So the question is how do people feel about the status quo? If one is cool with it, then they probably won't advocate for any changes. If not, then they probably will.
Which isn't to say a change would guarantee success, no honest person would attempt to say that. A hange gives you a chance at bucking the status quo, where no changes guarantee stasis.
My big thing isn't even that we're recruiting at the status quo. The difference between how we're recruiting now and how we were recruiting then, you ask? We may not have gotten significantly different results in terms of rankings, but we failed to address specific positions of need repeatedly, until we had absolutely unbelievable lack of depth across the OL and DL. It's not pure talent; it's depth and recruiting to our actual needs. Depth, depth, depth is the important part of recruiting. I would happily trade never landing a 5* recruit ever in the history of the program for landing a lot of 4* guys in the positions we need depth in.
Three things:
1. You're getting into murky territory by claiming to have "objective measures" for recruiting. By definition, the ranking of those players are subjective. It's impossible to say that one class was "objectively" better than another because of it's ranking.
2. My subjective opinion is that the last two recruiting classes have brought far more talent to campus than the previous classes.
3. Even if I concede that using recruiting ratings is an "objective measure" of recruiting success... For Tech to be maintaining it's rating despite having some of the least football success it's had in decades, wouldn't it's recruiting have to have improved? If the recruiting effectiveness stayed the same, wouldn't we see recruiting results drop as the case for playing at Virginia Tech got weaker?
1. It's the closest thing to an objective measure we have. It's at least a fact that can be used to support opinions. And while in a vaccum, the raknings (this years 25 vs this years 23) might be a bit fuzzier, there is value in the data points provided from year to year over the course of a decade +, it allows you to analyze trends to some degree.
2. OK. There's really no way to argue this subjective opinion either way. I hope you can at least acknowledge that your subjective opinion benefits from hindsight related to previous classes versus relative unknowns for the current classes. We won't really know if these classes have brought in "far more talent" for several years when we have the benefit of hindsight for both groups that we are evaluating.
3. This feels like circular logic. If pulling a 23rd ranked class when you're a lower-bowl team is "improved recruiting," then what was it when we were winning all of those 10 win seasons? I think you're putting way too much impact on using poor performance these last three years as the reason we aren't pulling these guys, when we weren't pulling them when we were performing well relative to now. That's my whole point - recruiting hasn't declined, but it hasn't improved - it's stayed exactly the same. We've increased our efforts and gotten more "with the times" but the result has had the effect of treading water. Is that something to be celebrated?
We didn't not land Sweat or Dalton because we were 6-6 this year. We didn't land Sweat and Dalton because we don't land Sweat and Dalton caliber players. Like I said before, it's what recruiting is and will continue to be under Frank Beamer. If you're cool with that, then cool. If you're not, you're not.
First I reject your premise that I like Frank Beamer but don't care about improved recruiting. False binary.
You imply that it will improve under a new head coach. I find that conjecture.
I think we have not gotten to the root cause of the ability to not land 5* guys. I think there are many possibilities than CFB.
I think the wise move is to discover why and correct THOSE reasons because I think it's much more than 1.
In other words, I do not think getting a new HC will auto improve recruiting 5* players.
Getting a new head coach won't auto improve anything
Getting the right head coach will improve everything
Too many people are scared that if we fire Frank, we're going to replace him with any random Joe Shmoe head coach who will tank this program and make us pine for the days long since past of going 6-6 and making bowls. What has Whit Babcock ever shown to say that this is even a remote possibility with him in charge? If we move on from Frank, it will be moving forward with the right guy in charge, and Whit will have worked his ass off to get him here. Which, of course, has already happened with his first hire.
If Frank Beamer is still head coach in 2016 will you conclude that Whit is a failure because he hasn't improved on the head coaching situation? Or will you conclude that Whit is doing the best he can, and in his judgment keeping Beamer is the best that can be done?
Not my premise. You can "like" Frank Beamer all you want. Recruiting results will not change at this point under Frank Beamer. This is what our recruiting is. You are either fine with our recruiting staying the same or you aren't. Recruiting is not going to improve under Frank Beamer by any measurable data point. This is who we are.
I never implied this. In fact, I expressly stated otherwise in one of my parent posts to this sub-thread, "Which isn't to say a change would guarantee success, no honest person would attempt to say that."
Chris Coleman had a really good article dispelling a lot of myths surrounding recruiting top 100 players on TSL. I think you would be hard pressed to find a reason why we haven't been able to land a 5* recruit not named Fuller in 7 years that we couldn't find several players going to schools like Iowa State that would suggest otherwise. That said, I would love you hear (not being a smart ass I am genuinely interested) how you would propose this program go out and discover the real reasons why we can't land top 100 talent when many schools in our same situation can. What methodology would you use to discern this?
Hey, we agree on this completely. That's why I literally said exactly this a couple of posts up.
Its not just that schools in the same position as us go out and do it... Hell, we weren't even doing it when we were routinely rolling up into the Top 10 nationally while annually playing in BCS bowls. No, the problem is that there are numerous teams in worse situations that are doing it. You brought up Iowa St. I'll throw in UVa (at least for top end talent... the second they realize they need to focus on the 4* and high 4* players the same way they go for the 5* guys, they'll start kicking our butts annually). Heck, even Duke is now poaching some of the top kids in the commonwealth.
I think it's interesting that when we were winning 10 games a season, the reason we weren't pulling these recruits was "of course they don't want to come here, they can get early playing time at [elsewhere]," now that we have early playing time available almost everywhere, it's "of course they don't want to come here, we're only winning 6 games a year."
This 100% is how I feel. To put it in layman's terms you cannot be mad at recruiting if you are a Frank Beamer apologist. Beamer is what Beamer is. He will not change. Recruiting is not as important to him as it is to other head coaches and that is unfortunate because he is in a hot bed of talent. Since we are throwing names around in this thread let's throw around some more also some stats. Not to make anyone feel any worse but these are our misses in the last couple years:
2012
Korren Kirven - committed to Alabama - 4 star - DT
2013
EJ Levenberry - committed to Fla State - 4 star - LB
2014
DaShawn Hand - Alabama - 5 star - DE
Derrick Nnadi - Fla. State - 4 Star - DT
Jalyn Holmes - Ohio State - 4 Star - DE
Jarran Reed - Alabama - 4 Star - DT
2015
Josh Sweat - Fla. State - 5 Star - DE
Ricky DeBerry - Going Out of State - 4 Star - LB
Tim Settle - Going Out of State - 4 Star - DT
Clelin Ferrell - Clemson - 4 Star - DE
Darvin Taylor - Fla. State - 4 Star - DE
Darrell Taylor - Tennessee - 4 Star - DE
and just for shits and giggles
Shy Tuttle - Tennessee - 5 Star - DT
Jalen Dalton - UNC - 4 Star - DE
The apologists can say these players wouldn't of worked out or we didn't want them but all the realists know they sure as hell wouldn't of hurt and gave us quality DL Depth.
Also here is a great stat for you guys:
VT has landed 3 of the top 5 players in VA in the past 5 years. 3 out of 25, that's right, a whopping 12% of the elite In Va
Allow me to clarify. The recruiting effort has improved, not the results. By improving their recruiting skills/efforts/strategies the staff has managed to pull in the same amount of talent (according to recruiting rankings, something I don't think is an effective tool for comparing talent) while losing many more games and being a less prestigious football program.
Of course this should be celebrated, if only because it means that IF they coaching staff can get back to the previous success that VT has enjoyed, they'll be able to hit the trail with more ammo to try and improve further.
I'm fine with being about 25 every year. What I'm not fine with is not landing top in-state recruits when we have the chance to move up a few spots. Also if we're consistently top 30 nationally recruiting our results right now means we are underperforming significantly.
There may be only two ifs, but they are monumental. Especially on the offensive side of the ball.
Ehh, if a kid can play, then the league will know about him....exposure is not (should not be) much of a factor. It is more about the program/coach, where the kid and the family feel comfortable, and sometimes academics.
I really feel like the Ohio State win could have been a great thing for us in terms of recruiting, but only if we had a good season. If we would have pulled out a 9-3 season, or even a 8-4 season without the embarrassing loss to Wake, we would have been in a good position with recruits. Now, looking back, the OSU win might mean a lot to us, but to people outside the program, it just looks like an anomaly, not the result of a good team effort beating another good team. I still have confidence in our team though, that is, the players. Whatever happens with the coaches happens, but I really like our players, especially the young guys at the skill positions.
I think the defense next year is going to be nasty. Except for safety, which will take two huge losses with #8 and #34 leaving, we keep pretty much everyone. I know Chase is going and that he is an integral piece to this defense, but I feel confident that Motuapuoka will be a great LB for us. I think the DLine is going to be disgusting. The tackles add much needed depth with Maddy coming back and Dadi and Ken will hopefully continue to pancake QBs. Unfortunately, DE depth is why we really needed a guy like Sweat, but the starters will be awesome.
On offense, the skill guys are really exciting. Ford, Cam, and Hodges are the most exciting receivers I've seen at VT. The young guys at RB, assuming they come back healthy, will assure that we have plenty of depth once again there. The Oline has some studs like Teller that really look great, and hopefully by adding a blue-chip recruit in Clark we will get better. Whoever wins the QB job will have weapons, it is just a matter of whether or not we can use them. Personally, I think that having a running, or at least highly mobile QB is the best in college, but we will see.
I just really needed to type all this out to reassure myself, or at the very least talk myself into believing, that we will turn the corner soon.
If we beat Wake and hold on vs. GT with maybe a comeback overtime win against ECU it's whole different season. Maybe 6-0 to start the year, 3 straight losses, then 3 wins at the end 9-3, best season since 2011, yeah I do think we get Sweat.
A 6-6 team who has fielded three consecutive teams that weren't part of the national conversation just can't expect to land that type of talent. )
(Look at the exposure that FSU can offer a student-athlete who has dreams of going pro as compared to what VT can offer right now.)
I don't know how much luck has to do with it honestly. We got tradition...I can't help but think back to the greatest defensive end in NFL history...Bruce "Sack Man" Smith.... 200 career sacks, NFL record. He played the last two seasons of his stellar collegiate career on two un-ranked Va. Tech Bill Dooley-coached teams that finished 9-2 and 8-4, respectively. Those two seasons saw great victories over such kick-ass teams as Memphis...VMI.....William & Mary...Duke....Tulane, and of course UVA :) ...with the only ranked team that we played in 2years, #4 West Virginia as a loss, 0-13. We have had, and have now a lot of great players in the NFL. I am curious, now that I think about it...how many *star* recruit was Bruce in high school? I honestly don't know....I DO KNOW, that he was one helluva Pro football player! :) And he didn't play for Florida State...or Alabama....or Texas....or So. Cal....he played for Virginia Tech. And he was the best defensive end in pro football....I'd call that one of many selling points for Va. Tech football players in the NFL.
Except for the fact that no one in the current generation of recruits actually saw him play live, and very few of them have seen his highlights.
Sure...and few saw Namath play for 'Bama, , Dorsett for Pittsburgh, etc.....I think that any successful pro alum can really help sell a program if these things are brought up to a player when recruiting them...especially when recruiting a defensive end and the one that still holds the NFL record for sacks went to Va. Tech in the pre-Bud Foster years. Just my 2 cents.
I've always said, recruiting is like dating. The "playas" with the best "game" take the girls home. As any "playa" would know, if you're the last to to talk the girl, i.e. as you are heading to the cab, she's most likely going to pick you that night. That was a MAJOR factor in this recruitment.
Jimbo is one of the best "playas" in college football right now with excellent tactics. It's evident, year after year, he bring's the top recruits home. Sure he has the fancy trophies, the historical precedence, and warm weather location on his side, but in the end it's the ability to sell yourself and "clear up those concerns."
VT needs to find a "playa."
Jimbo is a playa with a nice watch and a big roll of cash buying everybody drinks (not saying he pays anyone. cash=trophies/awards) rather than a playa who's just a smooth talker. Definitely helps.
I've read the thousand-or-so comments on the many threads on Josh Sweat, and I'm still not entirely sure how I feel, but I'll give it a shot. As a fan of VT football, it's disappointing to see another great talent pass us by. I am ashamed to admit how much time I wasted this morning refreshing TKP, 24/7, Twitter, and a few local news sites hoping for some inkling of what was going on. My heart sank when Josh's mom showed off the FSU sweatshirt. Then I got angry. At myself. Why? There I was, disappointed that he wouldn't be a Hokie. Lost in that moment was the fact that a young man had just made perhaps the most consequential choice of his life - where he will play football, seek a degree, and make some of the most meaningful friendships he will ever have. And there I was sulking because it wasn't at the same place that I chose to go to school.
So I stopped. I closed Twitter, and passively watched things here today (I was legitimately swamped with stuff to do at work so that would have been the case anyway) and I realized that my life was no different. Would I have been happy if he had picked VT? Of course. I always love seeing talented people go to VT, for whatever reason. Ultimately, a college choice is a deeply personal one; here Josh has made a huge choice, and we're debating whether or not Beamer's washed up or our program is doomed (this is not a shot at Alum's thread - I thought his question was very well posed, so thank you for that, but some people do get a bit too crazy in the comments). This is a choice about a young man and his future. We, as the VT community, are largely passive observers in other peoples' journeys, yet we get so caught up in it.
It doesn't sting any more. If we had lost out on a difference-maker at QB or RB or something, maybe. But our defense is going to be stellar next year. Could it have been better with Josh Sweat? Probably. But I'm not worried about defense. I'm worried about offense. If Loeffler can put together what we've all seen snippets of at times, we'll be seeing Josh Sweat soon. We'll be seeing him in Charlotte. And though I wish him good health, every success on the field and in the classroom, I also hope we'll get the chance to see Wyatt Teller pancake him as Shai, Juice, Trey, or JC bolts for the end zone. There is much about which we can surmise and prognosticate, but in the end, whoever ends up in Maroon & Orange are all I care about. I think next year could be a good one.
For now, adios Josh and enjoy college. Now let's beat the hell out of Cincinnati.
Great points.
In another thread I think it was Fiend of PRC that said he thought he saw Wyatt Teller gobbling down a burrito last night at Taco Bell and it just made me think, "It's gonna be alright," with a smile.
Leg for the cred
After eating Taco bell last night however, everything is not alright for me..lol
I see Sweat and Nnadi's decisions as personal ones, as you say and JC tweeted. I do believe that it came down to us vs. FSU and they both decided to head south. However the larger trend of not landing top in-state talent is concerning and I disagree about it not being at least somewhat life-changing. I've been at Tech, and a VT fan, these past 3 years and would like to have one of those classic Hokie seasons I have heard so much about and landing top talent is a part of achieving that.
Excellent....
I tried to convey the same sentiment on TSL (won't be going back soon). I even will go as far to say that Austin Clark makes a bigger impact on the team than Josh Sweat because of where our current needs lie! I think depth is a concern but I think Dooley has all the physical tools to be a monster, but the light has to come on! But I wholeheartedly agree to wish Josh well in his college experience and in health. But when we make it to the ACC championship let him and Nadi know, on the field and in between whistles why the Hokies and Hokie faithful is the most passionate fan base out there!
Agree 100%. Good thinking!
I was in class yesterday and turned on the live feed right as his mom showed off the FSU shirt. At least I didn't have to sit there and chew on my fingernails for half an hour.
I hate FSU, now I mean really, I hate them. I hate the arrogance, the pomp and circumstance, I hate the whole deal! We need to squash them in VA. If Jimbo can fly into Va the night before and win the living room, we are doomed. We need these incredible young men in order to get back to ACC championships. Man, I think I need another bourbon! I feel broken right now......
I feel ya. FlaSt has had the same awesome recruiting classes for years. It's a shame in some of those years while Bowden was there they didnt do much with those classes. Let's also not forget they flipped one of our recruits last year.
They didn't flip any of our recruits last year. If you are referring to Nnadi, he was considered to be a Tech "lean" for a while but never committed.
They flipped Harrison, while we flipped Ford from Louisville.
Ah forgot about him. I thought he was referring to Michael Barnett in this class for some reason.
Believe the reference is to Ja'Vonn Harrison. The 4* WR from Florida.
He wanted to go there, he just didn't get the offer until late, but he has a little girl, he had her in high school so it really was a good thing that he did go there, and I think Ford is already proving to be something special!
I flipped my coffee table this morning
Boy reading that was painful. I'm not the first to say it, but this is the recruiting equivalent of getting friend-zoned. Sweat saying he didn't want to disappoint the tech coaches was nice and all, but really just makes it sting more knowing we got so close to pulling off a great get.
hey, better FSU than the SEC in my opinion
Disagree. Would rather have him in the SEC.
FSU getting dominant again significantly hampers our goals of success. To win the ACC we have to beat them and we have to do it with them getting the best players annually out of our own state. And if we can't win the ACC we have no chance of being nationally relevant.
While I agree, FSU being good and continuing to get better has at least helped the ACC's rep a little. I'd rather they stockpile talent than the SEC - it's one little step toward a swing in the balance of conference power. We are a long shot to face FSU any time in the near future so we likely won't have to play against Sweat (I hope I am wrong about that). So if he is gonna tear it up on the field, he may as well rep the ACC.
I enjoy rooting against the SEC and if FSU can bring a little attention to the ACC, that's a nice silver lining to this whole thing for me
OT: Just got into Orlando tonight and they have a show dedicated to FSU, MIA, and UF recruiting. Someone was concerned that DE was a major need for FSU this year and they didn't have enough, sigh...
I like what JC said about players going to the school that has their heart. That is an intangible that can't be overstated. Many things besides the football program matter. The whole institution matters. You're either a Hokie or you aren't. I want guys that really want to be Hokies.
Bingo. As has been said before, Josh is a different kind of recruit. Not into the whole social media hype game and he seems like a low key guy off the field. He wants to be a high school teacher (#sources). VT is an engineering school, not saying VT can't offer him what he wants in regards to an education. However, if we couple his personal desires for higher education and a life outside of football with the pomp and circumstance that is FSU, it seems almost impossible to land him or similar recruits.
Google search the new FSU football facilities and you'll see why most wide-eyed 18 year olds want to go there, it rivals most NFL facilities.
It sucks not landing him or any of the other 5* guys we're after every year. Bottom line - he made a decision based on what makes him most comfortable and we can't fault him for it (not to say any one is arguing we should). We, as fans, need to take off our orange and maroon colored glasses and realize that just because we're so passionate about it doesn't mean all the in-state talent feels the same.
I'd take any five star guy at any position you're offering, but give me 11 guys on either side of the ball with the moxie, toughness, and bass like Brewer and you'll field a legit team competing for conference and national dominance every year.
Reading Sweat's comments about VT gave me the same feeling that you would get when you and a girl (or vice versa) don't work out in high school and the other is trying to justify it. You act like you don't care, but deep down you want to curl up in a ball and cry.
Ah yes, the "I think of you more as a friend" talk. At least he felt bad about it!
Really want to wish this kid well. He made a decision that was best for him. Saying that, If Sweat is still around in 2018, I want to see Austin Clark pancake him like a Waffle House short order cook!
Go Hokies!!
Reading this gave me a flashback to when we "unbelievably" lost out to sweatshirt Al for the services of the NFL ready linebacker A. Brooks........... God I can't tell you how many times I looped that replay of walk-on Will Montgomery pancaking his arse in his final loss to Tech.... it was a thing of beauty. Thanks. I fell better now ;-)
I want to hire Darren Brown as our "closer."
Just think of how he would be in the living room for the Hokies!
I just saw that North Carolina has fired their Defensive Coordinator. I wonder if that will have any effect on Jalen Dalton's commitment?
In case someone wants a source..................... http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/eye-on-college-football/2488088...
Need more info when available on this!
I realize no one wants to throw Petebuddywilson under the bus, but it's pretty clear VT needs a better bagman.
I think one of the main reasons this hurts so much is because we have struck out repeatedly with high caliber in-state talent at positions we so desperately need depth at. That and to be in the conversation so long and be another one everyone thinks he's going to only to have him surprise everyone at the end. Nnadi all over again....to the same school. Ole Miss brought in the top recruiting class two years ago or something so it's not just the teams that are winning now is who gets the good players. It can be done. And it should be done with in-state players. I don't agree with people who say frank doesn't care about recruiting. Has he told you this personally? Has he made zero trips to recruits homes? No. I think that is garbage that some people just spout to find an answer.
caveat: I am a big Hugh Freeze fan
I've seen a number of people talk about Ole Miss and why they were able to get the best class. But the context really isn't there. Ole Miss actually had some damn good recruiting classes the two/three years before 2013 coup. It wasn't just that Freeze was faced with a team of 2 and 3 stars and magically generated the nations best class. In fact the foundation was there from the previous coaching staff.
What Freeze did was approach recruiting from a completely different angle and got extremely lucky. Most importantly he managed to get all his top recruits on campus at the same time and sold them on their ability to win as a team. He knew he already had some recruits convinced and in that room disparate players started to connect and form a bond. It's genius but also extremely hard to do.
Anyway, I urge anyone interested in recruiting (which appears to be 99% of TKP) to read this article:
http://www.si.com/college-football/2013/02/07/hugh-freeze-ole-miss-signi...
It is a fascinating look behind the scenes of how it all came together. In the end, they already knew all the recruits that were "still deciding" had already decided to go to Ole Miss. brilliance, pure brilliance.