I contemplated positing this but though hm maybe this will be the last post in regards to him. According to Facebook he has his Final Conduct Meeting tomorrow and its sounding like it will be a good one. Just looking at his social media history in the past few weeks he seems upbeat and has a feeling he will be back. Hopefully all the facts are on the table and if not then I have 100% confidence that VT athletics/University will handle this properly unlike F$U did.
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That is such a relief that there could be a positive outcome for Shai. I seriously had my doubts when this story first broke
same here. I also have been listening to interviews and thought it was weird when Goforth mentioned Shai and how he was progressing in the 1st Spring Media session. SO maybe they know more news/insight as to what happened/whats going on.
I am glad that news/info is not all out there so we can handle this internally and not deal with the media BS that happens in situations like this.
As long as everything has been handled appropriately and justly by the police and the University, I hope everything goes well and that everyone involved learns the correct lessons and grows from this experience. I feel bad for everyone involved here.
Yeah I'm in a FB group for the class of 2017 and he has posted on there multiple times with questions regarding classes to take, help in those classes etc. Obviously that doesn't tell you whether or not this meeting will be in his favor, but it just seems like common sense that if a guy is asking all those types of questions and hasn't hinted at leaving/hid under a rock socially, that he believes he will be back on the field. I don't know, I just hope everything works out for the best. I'm sick of even thinking about this whole case and it's really not a pleasant subject at all, so it will be nice to hear a final say on the matter.
Hope if he isn't in wrong he takes this year off anyway gets back to 100%. I think he had highest ceiling of all backs on this roster.
I just hope he has learned Something from this and it carries over for him in his life. If not, then shame on him.
Lesson #1: Use eHarmony or Match.com before Tinder when it comes to online dating.
Lesson #2: Ask for a birth certificate before anything happens.
This, a million times, this.
It is a singular sinking feeling you experience after being intercepted on the muni golf course late at night by the cops, and finding out the girl you are with is 15. I barely beat the officer to the surprised "what!?" at that. Luckily we were just walking. She was a fine girl, but I was 19 and had a firm goal of no prison time in my life, so that, as they say, was that.
I reconnected with her 3000 miles and 4 years away from the golf course once, and she was still hot of course. Even though we had a great dinner & drive on the PCH, I couldn't get "15" out of my mind, and we parted with hugs only. Never saw her again.
My folks lived in the Pacific NW when I was at VT. I came home from college one summer and met a girl in their neighborhood. I assumed she also was home from college because she had never been around before...we started hanging out...she looked older than me...certainly acted older than me. Wrong! Didn't have her driver's license yet. Her family had just moved there which is why i hadn't seen her before. That situation revealed itself after a few days, but it could have easily been a huge mistake.
i have no idea what the situation with McKenzie is. The age gap is usually pretty obvious, but not always.
An age gap is not always readily apparent, no argument. That's also never a valid excuse for committing statutory rape.
no it isn't, and I would guess it is a strict liability statute in Va.
In Pa where he is a resident, if the victim is above the minimum age of consent under any circumstance (13 in Pa, 15 in Va) and below the legal age of consent under any circumstance (16 in Pa, 18 in Va), the age differential is the maximum difference in age between the victim and the defendant (4 in Pa, N/A in Va) where an individual can legally consent to sexual intercourse. Possible that in Pa he wouldn't have violated the law. If so, his atty may bring that up.
edit: the differential in Pa is less than 4 years, so 19/15 is a no-no. Would have to go to Hawaii, Colorado, Arkansas, or Maine to have legal sex without parental permission.
Funny thing is, I could have sworn there was a similar statute on the books in Virginia when all this came out. I can actually remember discussing such a law in high school. But apparently I've been mistaken for quite a while.
quite the variation in state laws
http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/08/sr/statelaws/summary.shtml
The law in PA is irrelevant to a case in VA.
In terms of guilt it is irrelevant (turns out I was wrong about Pa anyway) and if he was intentionally taking advantage of a 15 year old, I personally have no sympathy...have some common sense. However, even with strict liability statutes, the judge will look at knowledge and intent in determining the penalty.
State statutes vary widely. There are even 4 states where a 19 year old doing it with a 15 year old is either legal or not prosecuted. The legality in Va may be cut and dry, however, there is no broader consensus on the morality of the issue.
I'd call yours a success story.
Successful, because it didn't include an infraction, and the resulting jail time.
Good move!
Hell, just ask for a Hokie Passport.
One does not simply ask for Hokie Passports while in Radford
Well if you're in Radford to begin with ...
Oh, never mind.
Lesson #3: Also, need two forms of picture ID and a utility/phone bill to prove residency.
Or, just a suggestion here, how about you leave your phone in your pocket and go out and meet people the old fashioned way.
I do like an Old Fashion every once in a while...
NSFW:
LMAO!
You going back to the kitchen?
Oh no. F-k that.
I'm tired.
Goodnight Sharon.
[Farts]
[Snores loudly]
Every time.
Oooh, me too. What a great idea. I'll toast you in about 20 minutes, but I'll give up the leg right now.
Lets give OKCupid some love too
She was 15.
...and she was the oldest of the 2...
False accusations are also very rare in general. This is a dangerous way of thinking
As is a presumption that every allegation is true, and should not be questioned.
I'd say skepticism, even if voiced inelegantly, is probably the least dangerous of the two, and the one that best matches our system of justice.
If anyone would like a second opinion about this line of thinking just ask our friends in Charlottesville.
The sad thing is, we will never know for certain what happened in Charlottesville. A certain percentage of the population will assume that since the account given in the Rolling Stone article wasn't accurate, it was a deliberately falsehood. But research on sexual assault shows first person accounts of victims of sexual assault often vary wildly from the actual events, influenced by how the mind copes with violence and trauma. It could be fabricated, or it could be PTSD.
That's our justice system's particular problem in dealing with sexual assault. The onus is on the accuser, and the majority of the time there are no witnesses and just one person's word against another's. We can't suspend the assumption of innocence, but sexual assault victims are left with little recourse. It's a problem that does not have a readily apparent solution.
What's just as bad if not worse is how the series of events surrounding the Rolling Stone article and the following revelations could ultimately make it more difficult for abuse victims to be taken seriously.
Edit: Glaringly bad typo
Bingo.
As well as the reputations of those accused. Where does one go to get that back. Where does one go to reclaim the headspace and defense money spent?
I think anyone who has followed all the details of this case knows beyond the shadow of a doubt what certainly did not happen in Charlottesville.
All the evidence suggests quite strongly this was indeed a deliberate falsehood in the effort to cultivate a deeper relationship with a friend who did not share the accuser's feelings.
That's our justice system, period. Full stop. Not a problem, but a feature of presumption of innocence.
The solution is for victims of any crime to empower themselves, and in this specific type of crime, to report to the police ASAP, get a rape kit done, and pursue justice.
That she specifically refuses to speak with police about it is another indication of where the truth lies, and seems like a very rational refusal on her part if you follow the evidence to the logical conclusion. Speaking to the police crosses a line that could well land her in prison.
I know it sounds cold, and I know the standard answer is that "you just don't understand, rape victims are special group with extraordinary extenuating factors", but frankly, I find that what truth there is in that statement doesn't rise to the level of changing the fundamental fabric of our justice system.
I would submit that society does not empower victims by strengthening the sense of victimhood and by expanding the definition of rape. Instead, suggesting they shouldn't have to face their trauma simply encourages actual victims to never come to grips with that trauma. And adding to the definition of rape, among other things, inebriated sex (which, let's face it used to be thought of as a feature of college and one of the 60's counter-culture's proud call to arms), encourages other people to identify as victims and acquire a sense of personal trauma that never would have existed in the first place.
The specious "1 in 5 college females are a victim of rape" claim and the resultant title IX extortion being exerted on college coffers is the most glaring danger at play here, and the victim is going to be damn near everyone who pays taxes or goes to college.
For our system of justice to work, it must be exercised. It is everyone's responsibility, even the victims, to do this.
I feel horrible for those who are assaulted and who find it terrible to have to relive the trauma to some extent in pursuing justice.
But in the end, this is a binary choice: Either we presume guilt, or we presume innocence. Choosing the wrong side of that equation ends in far more ruined lives.
What's sad is that numerous people did come forward with their own true personal experiences at UVa in the aftermath of the Rolling Stone article, who have since been silenced and brushes aside as likely false claims themselves based on what happened with that one publicized falsehood.
+1000 Alum... and the IDIOT administrator (Dean Eramo) who when interviewed by a WUVA student reporter said that if a perpetrator faces his victim and apologizes he should be able to stay on campus. It was absurd and I, like the young student doing the reporting was floored.
http://wuvaonline.com/expulsion-cheating-suspension-sexual-assault/
Yes, they still have issues up there as long as that person is in a position of power.
For the sake of brevity, I'll just say that I disagree with pretty much every one of your assertions. It's not worth a wall of text or an autopsy response, but a couple points I think are important to overtly state.
The structure of our judicial system does have a big problem dealing with sexual assault. It is a PROBLEM. Not a feature. In a particular crime where there are rarely witnesses, victims often exhibit PTSD symptoms and the majority of cases come down to the testimony of the plaintiff vs the defendant, our justice system is about as poorly equipped as possible to act as finder of fact. And there's no way around it that I can see, because we CANNOT reverse the assumption of innocence.
As for "expanding the definition of rape," the only definition of rape that's worth a damn is a sexual act in which one party does not render consent. I'm going to give you broad benefit of the doubt here, but your comments on this subject sound unsettling close to a discussion of "legitimate rape."
We'll have to agree to disagree on the problem/feature in regards to the justice system. Its a problem IMO, only insofar as there is no perfect solution, and that sometimes, the best solution involves someone having to open old wounds in order that justice works for everyone. Pain is quite often a part of healing too though. It's tragic, but it's also, well, life.
I'm not the one expanding the definition of rape or any other type of sexual misconduct. The only definitions I think apply should be the ones defined in our penal codes, rather than the expanding list of that Universities are being persuaded to use.
Sorry you feel unsettled by what I said. I'd recommend focusing on what I said, and asking for clarification if it's unclear, rather than playing the Akin card. Seems rather uncalled for, but YMMV.
I honestly, sincerely wasn't trying to play any card here. I was saying how it came across, to give you an opportunity to clarify, which you did. I was basically asking for clarification in as many words by saying how the original wording had come across.
Absolutely, let's shake hands and just accept we see it differently.
Excellent idea, and I'm sorry I misunderstood you.
The issue that I would have with someone being charged with rape after having what they believed to be consentual sex with someone who had been voluntarily drinking is that the same standard wouldn't apply to other decisions made by their partner/victim while they were inebriated.
If someone is an angry drunk and gets in a fight, they'll likely be charged with assault,battery, drunk and disorderly, etc. If they get behind the wheel of a car and hit someone, they'll be likely to face criminal charges for DUI, manslaughter, etc. depending on the circumstances. But if the same person makes a bad decision about sex while intentionally* intoxicated, they're suddenly the victim of a crime even though they chose to engage in behavior that lowers their inhibitions.
*I use the word intentionally to indicate that the person was aware that they were consuming an intoxicating substance and hadn't been tricked or coerced into doing so. I would also limit this argument to adults and wouldn't apply the same standard when a minor is given alcohol or similar intoxicants.
Here's how I see it. The cases you laid out above are issues of negligence, and are litigated as such. But consenting to sex isn't an issue of negligence, because you aren't harming another person. (No matter how many times you've seen 50 Shades.) What you're describing above would be if someone got drunk and forced themselves on another person.
Sexual consent is a contract, legally speaking. And like all contacts, you have to be in your right mind to enter into it. If you are blackout drunk and sign a contract to buy a car, you aren't legally bound to that contract. (Yes, you still have to return it, and you're liable for any damage you did to it since it was never your property.)
That's like sex. If a girl is falling down drunk, she lacks the facilities to enter into the contract of consenting to sex. Now here's the important part: the other party has to know that you aren't in your right mind, generally speaking. So if you have had two beers and a girl who can't keep her head up slurs out something vaguely resembling "Let's fuck," you can't do it. You know she's out of her right mind. That's rape.
But let's say you've had twelve beers, three shots and a red bull and vodka. You are equally impaired. You cannot reasonably be expected to know that girl is out of her head, because you're equally out of yours. Not rape.
Here's the rule to use: if any part of it feels like it's taking advantage of her, don't do it.
If both people are drunk, that is not an excuse. If both people are drunk, it also doesn't mean that there was any wrongdoing. 2 people can get blackout drunk and consensually have sex. 2 people can also get drunk and someone can be raped.
No question. The example above is only for instances of consensual sex. My point is, if one partner is intoxicated to impairment but not the other, the intoxicated person cannot legally render consent.
A drunk person can certainly rape another drunk person, or a sober person. That's not the issue I was talking about.
I realized that not long after I posted, definitely on the same team here.
However, you must walk an interesting line if you are into BDSM. Just about anything that leaves a bruise or mark can be classified as assault and one can never consent to assault.
So, be careful if she says she likes it rough, even if she signs that contract, your liability in civil and criminal cases may not be absolved.
Just to quell any jokes before they occur, I am neither a sadist nor masochist.
Actually, the overwhelming preponderance of evidence (and total lack of corroborating evidence) in the Rolling Stone/UVa case indicates that the account was false and the incident did not occur.
Just because many incidents are not false -- yet accounts aren't always hole-proof -- does not mean that we have to repeat the mantra that if we weren't there to witness first-hand what did or didn't happen that therefore we'll never know for certain what happened when an accusation/report is clearly and demonstrably false and/or inaccurate.
The only reason the Charlottesville Police are keeping this investigation "open" is precisely because of the political forces behind this view that "we'll never know".
Both parties are innocent until proven guilty. But both parties should also be given all appropriate treatment, be that psychiatric counseling and/or police investigation. In the rare case that an accusation is false, there are opportunities for recourse for the accused. Our society also has a high tolerance for "alleged 'x'-ers" if acquitted by the law. If the accusations turn out to be true, the victim doesn't deserve the often harsh criticism they sometimes recieve.
In the end I agree with you. As with any serious accusation, it should be questioned investigated fully to find the truth. But when most (all?) studies show that one outcome is much more prevalent, I think it's safe to direct most public sympathy towards one side
What is Shai's legal status? I know he had a court date on March 16 but never heard the outcome of that.
Got pushed back according to AB.
Still suspended from the team until the legal side plays out?
Correct. Even if he's eventually cleared of everything, he won't rejoin the team until the summer at the earliest, if at all.
Seems odd that he would be going to his Final Conduct Hearing with the school if the legal system procedures are still playing out. Seems like the cart in front of the horse to me.
Perhaps it's the school's conduct hearing. It doesn't need the legality of situations to be decided to make it's own decision on a student's conduct. I know I was in a lot of school judicial hearings that were well ahead of the legal system.
Student Conduct is not a legal proceeding and does not need the same level of evidence or procedure. Usually, a student convicted of a crime will also face student conduct punishments as well, but a student who is in violation of the code of conduct does not always face a criminal offense.
Talked to him at Big Al's this weekend. More so about his knee and it how was feeling but he seemed to be pretty upbeat and saying that he can't wait to get back out on the field.
Not for nothing, but why is an underaged kid that is currently being charged in a very serious criminal investigation hanging out in a bar?
I hate to jump to conclusions but it really seems like Shai might not be making the best life decisions.
Isn't Big Al's a hair salon?
(dates himself...withdraws slowly into the background)
Big Al's is where you could get good burger and a milkshake, hang out with Richie, Ralph, Potsie, and Chachi, and watch the Fonz turn on the jukebox just by bumping it.
I was thinking the same thing. But hey, maybe I just had one too many Budweisers and it was someone else entirely.
Wondering the same, and unless Big Al's has changed in the past few years, they don't let in underage kids. Even if they are on the football team.
Big Al's is probably the 2nd easiest bar to get in with a fake. 1st being TOTS
Wasn't that way when I worked the door.
Not that I have any experience in the matter (no, really, I don't), but I'd say TOTS is just the most popular bar to try to get in with a fake. TOTS is likely the only (most well-known) bar for local teens.
I got an alcohol JR second semester freshman year and was at Hokie House at least twice a week the rest of that semester. (Not trying to justify him, just stating that he's not alone in the poor life choices boat)
to eat?
Haha, I saw him there a few weeks ago and he told me OSU was soft. I thought it was funny.
The "just another girl looking for the spotlight" comment has been bothering me since I read this post this morning. I have no knowledge of the situation other than the initial news article but in some statutory rape cases it is the parents of the minor that press charges. It does not matter if the minor does not cooperate. The alleged victim can also be charged with being an unruly child in some instances. Definitely not on the same level as being charged with rape but it is a charge.
Also I understand in some situations it appears the victim makes allegations to be in the spotlight or possibly get a payday. However at the moment there is no spotlight and definitely no payday in making allegations against Shai.
I will take the just another girl looking for a spotlight comment down as I see how it looks bad.
Could shai have been there before/after his buddy did something terribly wrong? That's what it's looking like but who knows regardless is a crumy situation.
Hopefully once the court date comes we can get more information. For now he seems safe on University side. Can he be charged on the legal side and somehow not be charged by university? Sounds weird
Whether he gets charged or not would be up to the DA's office. It will depend on many factors like the attitudes of the prosecutor and alleged victim's family, the evidence (physical and people's testimonies) and ultimately a grand jury.
"Can he be charged on the legal side and somehow not be charged by university?"
Sure.
Sexual Misconduct under the Student Code is Sexual contact without consent.
Statutory rape is primarily age-based.
this is correct, and applies to more than issues with sex.
Shai posted to his personal Facebook page that he is cleared of wrongdoing by the student conduct board. Next up, court date.
Cleared of any VT misconduct violations.
http://virginiatech.247sports.com/Bolt/Hokies-McKenzie-Hears-from-Virgin...
So wait, according to the link he is supposed to appear in court on April 16th. Of all the dates out there, I will be quite ticked if this takes away from the headlines of what that day means to all Hokies. Just thinking about it tainting that day with this nonsense pisses me off more about this whole situation.
wait, what? Just because his court date is on April 16th will not take away any headlines/importance from that day for all Hokies. At the end of the day, its just a game/football and its Shai's problem not yours/ours. When April 16, 2015 arrives, it will be remembered just as much no matter what happens to him that day.
This.
The world doesn't shut down every September 11 or December 7, but that doesn't lessen the magnitude of those dates.
Whoa....didn't say that the world stopped moving or that it should on April 16th. Just pointed out the fact that this could be a story on of all days April 16th. I personally have been unlucky and experienced people saying really ignorant things on April 16th over the last few years about the shooting. Having this incident coincide with that date on what I personally view as a celebration of 32 Hokies is unfortunate, not because I think the world should stop moving and we should shut down everything we do that day, but because some idiots out there will probably find pleasure in it happening on the same day.
Sorry, sir, meant absolutely no disrespect to you. If there are jerks out there who take some sort of twisted pleasure in a Hokie suffering misfortune on that particular date, I will be content to live my whole life pretending they don't exist.
I clearly bungled my message here, chalk it up to not being the most savvy with words. What I meant was, I love VT dearly and anything said negatively about the University on any day of the year makes me mad (whether it is actually warranted negativity or not, orange and maroon goggles are strapped on tightly). The thought of having him go to court on April 16th and the possibility of others speaking negatively about our school (which they will because that's what people do) makes me very upset. I probably should have kept this to myself, but I guess I was hoping that by saying it now I would be over it if it did happen. Sorry guys/gals.
has anyone heard officially whether or not Shai's suspension from the team has been lifted?
I heard from #sources that he is back with the team and might even play this season but I'm looking for official confirmation. TIA
Even if he is back for the season, I think a redshirt season would be a good idea. Give those knees a real chance to heal and get stronger.
I haven't heard any different so I think he's still indefinately suspended until his criminal case is resolved. I have read from #sources that he has been allowed to continue using the facilities to work out with the other football players, so my expectation is that everyone in the athletics dept expects him to be charged/convicted of a misdemeanor, which would allow him a path to return to the team.
I don't expect him to play this year. Maybe in Oct/Nov if we suffer other injuries at RB, but even if he's healthy at the start of the season I expect that he's going to be suspended for a few games.
Well, I'll be looking for his number on the sidelines in September. That should give us an idea of where he stands
well if your looking for his # itll be 22 this year I believe, and according to his snapchat he has been working out with the team and has a locker and gotten all gear so I would think its pretty safe to assume that he will be back 100% when all this was over, if not I think the ball coach would tell him stay away until everything was done. just my thoughts though.
interesting. Just out of curiosity, what are your #sources? I understand if you don't wanna spill the beans on that
Edit: Dumb Question. HightyTighty set me straight
lol...completely skimmed over that..thanks for pointing it out. I'm gonna go finish my alcohol and check out for the evening.
lol yeah. these aren't "sources" these are straight from shai's snapchat. I don't KNOW for a fact that just because hes got a locker and doing team activities that that means he will be fully reinstated that's just an assumption. but I would think that beams wouldn't have him hanging around that close if he didn't expect him to be on the team. again this is all just speculation on my part based on what ive seen on shai's snaps.
don't think he will be suspended at all if we redshirt him, that would completely defeat the purpose IMO. No idea if he is ready to play or not but I would be cautious. JC finished the year strong and if Trey can stay healthy we should be good to go. Its scary how deep we are at RB now compared to a few years ago.
In regard to his meeting, I wish him best regards.
Couple tweets today regarding the situation:
Shai should be back soon!
So with it seeming like we're gonna be getting Shai back, what is his status physically? Will he be playing come September 7? We could use a back like him
I'm wondering now how this affects his eligibility with the team? Will he be given a second chance with an upheld misdemeanor?
by my own accounts/relations with NCAA and schools yes a misdemeanor will be given second chance. Ultimately it is up to school/coach but considering he hasn't been kicked out of school I'd say it's a go we see him for Fall/summer camp
VT athletics has a policy on this... the best I can recall it goes something like this:
felony conviction = you're done
pattern of multiple misdemeanor convictions / lying to coaches = you're done (see Marcus Vick)
one misdemeanor conviction = suspension for a few games up to a full season depending on the circumstances
Unless you are Cody Journell
House arrest at Merryman in the weight room.
Make it happen, Jimmy.
I'm sure those 15 days will really rehabilitate him.
He needs to report early if he wants to be back for the start of fall camp. So glad that I can see fall camp starting soon.
That said, he needs to redshirt.
so is he gonna end up on a sex offender list now?
No, this is not a sex crime that he will have to register for.