If Hansen can give us solid play the OL has a chance to be pretty good. Hoping we settle on 2 RBs to get the majority of carries and can make the OL look even better.
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Really hoping the staff is wise enough to redshirt both McKenzie and Williams. That will leave plenty of carries for Coleman and Edmunds with McMillan getting a few as well. Not to mention Rogers and Peoples.
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Shane has said publicly that his magic number is three. Now whether that's equal division of carries among the three or a defined 1 and 1a and a "breather back" remains to be seen. Regardless, should Shai be reinstated and fully cleared (both legally and medically), that leaves someone odd man out.
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Yeah I just don't see why we should rush him back, since 1) it will have been less than a year since the tear, and 2) it was the same ACL as his high school injury. I would be too nervous for a Boobie Miles-type situation.
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Well, here's the way I see it. If he is medically cleared, redshirting him gains nothing. It's not going to make it less likely that he suffers a third tear in a year's time. That's not how ACLs work.
I agree with you he shouldn't be rushed back. But if he's medically cleared, he isn't being rushed. If it's healed, it's healed. And in that situation, a redshirt is pointless from a medical standpoint. If that ACL is gonna go again, it's gonna go this year or next year, redshirt or no.
I think a lot of people see the redshirt as a way to save difficult choices having to be made in the distribution of carries in the backfield, and rationalize it by saying it's in Shai's best interests medically. But it isn't. Not if he is medically cleared to play. Yes it would solve some issues in a crowded backfield, but it wouldn't make it any less likely that Shai tears his ACL again when he finally returns to the field.
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I think the better argument is that he won't be as effective less than a year out from ACL surgery. Trusting the knee and all that. So from that standpoint, I'd be in favor of redshirting both guys while they get back into the groove of things and into football shape.
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I don't know the actual data on this, so I'm raising it blind:
Might there also be more potential for injury in general until that confidence is back? Yes, the ACL is healed, but by running in a way that maybe isn't your normal running style could cause you to take impact in a way that is more harmful? I know that I had all sorts of secondary aches & pains from babying a knee injury far past the time it had actually healed. Recognition of that and good PT cleared all that up thankfully.
I agree that a large part of the "Redshirt him" argument is about just clearing room and taking toys away from Shane to potentially play with instead of the hot-hand.
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Really good points by both you guys. I guess what we're hitting now is the divide between "medically cleared" and "mentally ready to play."
By favoring the reconstructed knee, might Shai be at greater risk for another injury? Man, like you said, I just don't have the data to do anything more than just speculate. I can totally see it being possible. And yet, I can also see a situation where those bad habits are more deeply ingrained in him by staying off the field for a year. Maybe the only way to get his confidence back is through live carries.
So. Much. Speculation.
I'll amend my original comment. If Shai is ready to come back (both medically cleared and mentally prepared to return to the field) then a redshirt does nothing. If he's medically cleared but hesitant, then I just have to trust Shane to make the right call for Shai's specific situation.
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The only thing I'd say is that a healthy Trey Edmunds was a very good back his freshman year, JC can play, and then you play McMillian. The advantage to me is that you then have Williams, McKenzie, and McMillian sharing the load next year with less bodies, and not wasting a year of sharing carries amongst 5 RBs.
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Not sure there is data , but just look at Sherzer of the Nationals - missed his start b/c his thumb hurt enough that he was afraid he'd change his style and then hurt his arm. I think the same goes for all athletes. You've been doing something (cutting , running, etc) a certain way for 5-10 yrs by the time you made it to college. If you don't trust part of your body, you'll change , which could lead to less productivity or possible injuries.
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Has Shai been reinstated to the team? Isn't it premature to discuss until he is? I'm betting he is "redshirted" based on what happened along with all these other factors.
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If he is legally cleared, I would be shocked if the contributing charge factors in any way into the decision of whether or not to redshirt him. I don't see that happening. Now we can have a conversation about whether he should be allowed to rejoin the team even if the charges are dropped, but it seems the writing is on the wall. Multiple coaches have made comments implying he will be reinstated if the legal side gets cleared up.
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I guess what I'm implying might happen is that the legal process might drag on into the fall, and by the time it's resolved, he will have missed spring and fall camp. Adding in the injury, and the emergence of other players, would result in a redshirt.
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Oh! I got ya now. Everything I've heard suggests this might all be decided by July, so I wasn't thinking about the proceedings dragging into the season.
But you bring up a really good point. If Shai isn't with the team at the start of the season, would he still be eligible for a redshirt? Not sure what rules there are about suspended players.
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I am way too optimistic about the OL this year. Our starting 5 is as good as we have seen in a good long while. I think if we can develop a interior utility lineman (maybe Chung or Smith) and another tackle to fill in for any potential injuries, then this unit may become (day I say it) a strength.
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Agreed. Starters are legit best in 4 years. Just need to develop a couple other backups in addition to Chung back healthy, really a tackle, guard, and center as quality reliable backups and in case of injury.
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I wonder about Austin Clark. Very little mention of him this spring even though his tape looked good and he was highly rated and seemed to have the size to come in and compete. Finding out he couldn't crack the second team when there are so many holes to fill sort of deflates the excitement his arrival. I really thought he would be able to contribute to the second team right away. If he stays on third team he should be redshirted.
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He's a true freshman who just went from playing his last season in high school to his first spring at a power five program. We all wanted him to set the world on fire, but it's a process. Let's let him finish his first semester of college before we start wondering if he should be redshirted.
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He will stick at tackle. He has tackle size and ability, at 6'6 300 he isn't going to play guard. He just needs to work on technique, footwork, and acclimate to the speed of the game. He is very young .
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There is also a big difference in the body of a 300lb freshman and a 300lb r-So. He could still easily be a 3 year starter and have a heck of a career. Transferring weight from around the waist to the hips, chest and shoulders makes a big difference in getting in the way of a defender and moving that defender. Look at Conte and Teller, neither have much of a gut but are both 300 and are our best guys at moving folks out of the way. Add some technique practice to that strength and I think we will have a good tackle on our hands here in a few years.
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It's not the weight as much as the height. At guard you need to get lower for leverage and push. He's too tall for guard and center duty. Plus you are standing in front of the QB to see over you. Also he is 18 so he might even get a shade taller.
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Same deal as Lydon. He's gonna be good, but he's not ready yet. Not a surprise or disappointment for a guy to have some growing pains his first spring.
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Bitter nailed it on the head saying there is the big three. I do not see Osterloh as a possible starter though. He is HUGE but he got blown off by the second d-line a few times from what I saw. Clark is raw but could be molded by OSU.
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The most depressing thing about all of this is that the son of the greatest player in our schools history being unable to distinguish himself on either of the lines. Hopefully he turns a corner and is pancaking people soon...
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Trust me as someone whose dad was also in the navy and made quite a name for himself I never stop getting comparisons so I completely understand. That being said he was 3/4 star recruiticorn and it would be nice to see him doing something...
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I keep tossing you lobs...this is like the second or third third or fourth post I've had in the last couple days where you swoop in with an awesome gif...do I get points for assists?
edit: see below
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Comments
The bar hasn't been set high. That said, this is the best I have felt about our o-line in a long time.
If Hansen can give us solid play the OL has a chance to be pretty good. Hoping we settle on 2 RBs to get the majority of carries and can make the OL look even better.
Really hoping the staff is wise enough to redshirt both McKenzie and Williams. That will leave plenty of carries for Coleman and Edmunds with McMillan getting a few as well. Not to mention Rogers and Peoples.
Shane has said publicly that his magic number is three. Now whether that's equal division of carries among the three or a defined 1 and 1a and a "breather back" remains to be seen. Regardless, should Shai be reinstated and fully cleared (both legally and medically), that leaves someone odd man out.
Yeah I just don't see why we should rush him back, since 1) it will have been less than a year since the tear, and 2) it was the same ACL as his high school injury. I would be too nervous for a Boobie Miles-type situation.
Well, here's the way I see it. If he is medically cleared, redshirting him gains nothing. It's not going to make it less likely that he suffers a third tear in a year's time. That's not how ACLs work.
I agree with you he shouldn't be rushed back. But if he's medically cleared, he isn't being rushed. If it's healed, it's healed. And in that situation, a redshirt is pointless from a medical standpoint. If that ACL is gonna go again, it's gonna go this year or next year, redshirt or no.
I think a lot of people see the redshirt as a way to save difficult choices having to be made in the distribution of carries in the backfield, and rationalize it by saying it's in Shai's best interests medically. But it isn't. Not if he is medically cleared to play. Yes it would solve some issues in a crowded backfield, but it wouldn't make it any less likely that Shai tears his ACL again when he finally returns to the field.
I think the better argument is that he won't be as effective less than a year out from ACL surgery. Trusting the knee and all that. So from that standpoint, I'd be in favor of redshirting both guys while they get back into the groove of things and into football shape.
Leg to both for good points.
I don't know the actual data on this, so I'm raising it blind:
Might there also be more potential for injury in general until that confidence is back? Yes, the ACL is healed, but by running in a way that maybe isn't your normal running style could cause you to take impact in a way that is more harmful? I know that I had all sorts of secondary aches & pains from babying a knee injury far past the time it had actually healed. Recognition of that and good PT cleared all that up thankfully.
I agree that a large part of the "Redshirt him" argument is about just clearing room and taking toys away from Shane to potentially play with instead of the hot-hand.
The biomedical engineer in me wants to have a bunch of fun with this question.
Really good points by both you guys. I guess what we're hitting now is the divide between "medically cleared" and "mentally ready to play."
By favoring the reconstructed knee, might Shai be at greater risk for another injury? Man, like you said, I just don't have the data to do anything more than just speculate. I can totally see it being possible. And yet, I can also see a situation where those bad habits are more deeply ingrained in him by staying off the field for a year. Maybe the only way to get his confidence back is through live carries.
So. Much. Speculation.
I'll amend my original comment. If Shai is ready to come back (both medically cleared and mentally prepared to return to the field) then a redshirt does nothing. If he's medically cleared but hesitant, then I just have to trust Shane to make the right call for Shai's specific situation.
The only thing I'd say is that a healthy Trey Edmunds was a very good back his freshman year, JC can play, and then you play McMillian. The advantage to me is that you then have Williams, McKenzie, and McMillian sharing the load next year with less bodies, and not wasting a year of sharing carries amongst 5 RBs.
Not sure there is data , but just look at Sherzer of the Nationals - missed his start b/c his thumb hurt enough that he was afraid he'd change his style and then hurt his arm. I think the same goes for all athletes. You've been doing something (cutting , running, etc) a certain way for 5-10 yrs by the time you made it to college. If you don't trust part of your body, you'll change , which could lead to less productivity or possible injuries.
"Medically cleared" and "ready to play" can be two entirely different things.
Ex: Trey Edmunds was medically cleared to play last August, but wasn't really ready to play until mid-season.
Are you talking about being rusty/out of shape, or hesitant?
was probably both for trey. Didn't trust his leg it seemed.
The one can beget the other, good point.
Has Shai been reinstated to the team? Isn't it premature to discuss until he is? I'm betting he is "redshirted" based on what happened along with all these other factors.
If he is legally cleared, I would be shocked if the contributing charge factors in any way into the decision of whether or not to redshirt him. I don't see that happening. Now we can have a conversation about whether he should be allowed to rejoin the team even if the charges are dropped, but it seems the writing is on the wall. Multiple coaches have made comments implying he will be reinstated if the legal side gets cleared up.
I guess what I'm implying might happen is that the legal process might drag on into the fall, and by the time it's resolved, he will have missed spring and fall camp. Adding in the injury, and the emergence of other players, would result in a redshirt.
Oh! I got ya now. Everything I've heard suggests this might all be decided by July, so I wasn't thinking about the proceedings dragging into the season.
But you bring up a really good point. If Shai isn't with the team at the start of the season, would he still be eligible for a redshirt? Not sure what rules there are about suspended players.
I am way too optimistic about the OL this year. Our starting 5 is as good as we have seen in a good long while. I think if we can develop a interior utility lineman (maybe Chung or Smith) and another tackle to fill in for any potential injuries, then this unit may become (day I say it) a strength.
Agreed. Starters are legit best in 4 years. Just need to develop a couple other backups in addition to Chung back healthy, really a tackle, guard, and center as quality reliable backups and in case of injury.
I wonder about Austin Clark. Very little mention of him this spring even though his tape looked good and he was highly rated and seemed to have the size to come in and compete. Finding out he couldn't crack the second team when there are so many holes to fill sort of deflates the excitement his arrival. I really thought he would be able to contribute to the second team right away. If he stays on third team he should be redshirted.
He's a true freshman who just went from playing his last season in high school to his first spring at a power five program. We all wanted him to set the world on fire, but it's a process. Let's let him finish his first semester of college before we start wondering if he should be redshirted.
I didn't think anyone expected him to start this year, but with Hansen leaving, he has a clear path to take over RT next year
Go back at look at threads from a few short months ago. Quite a few expected him to start (albeit over-exuberantly and incorrectly).
I'm gonna guess it's been a bit of leap from the competition he was playing against just 6 months ago to now. I'm not so certain he ends up at tackle.
He will stick at tackle. He has tackle size and ability, at 6'6 300 he isn't going to play guard. He just needs to work on technique, footwork, and acclimate to the speed of the game. He is very young .
I believe he will be a guard, I'm not sure he will ever have the quickness for a tackle.
There is also a big difference in the body of a 300lb freshman and a 300lb r-So. He could still easily be a 3 year starter and have a heck of a career. Transferring weight from around the waist to the hips, chest and shoulders makes a big difference in getting in the way of a defender and moving that defender. Look at Conte and Teller, neither have much of a gut but are both 300 and are our best guys at moving folks out of the way. Add some technique practice to that strength and I think we will have a good tackle on our hands here in a few years.
It's not the weight as much as the height. At guard you need to get lower for leverage and push. He's too tall for guard and center duty. Plus you are standing in front of the QB to see over you. Also he is 18 so he might even get a shade taller.
Height isn't a liability inside as long as the player has the strength and the flexibility to play low.
Austin Clark (FR) is 6'6" 300lb.
Let's take a look at our starting guards
Wyatt Teller (rSO) = 6'6" 295lb
Augie Conte (rJR) = 6'6" 297lb
Not much difference in basic measurables...
FWIW I think Clark sticks at OT as well.
That's a big IF though. They might play him there but there is an undeniable trend that guards do not excel over 6'5".
http://walterfootball.com/draft2013OG.php
http://walterfootball.com/draft2014OG.php
http://walterfootball.com/draft2015OG.php
Teller is a beast, but hes very much an exception
I still like the way that Joe described 6'6" 310lb Vinston Painter's body type as "skin over batsuit"
Same deal as Lydon. He's gonna be good, but he's not ready yet. Not a surprise or disappointment for a guy to have some growing pains his first spring.
Braxton Pfaff was highly rated too.
he was an upper 3 star while clark was a consensus 4 star and most sites had in the top 200 in the country.
From what I watched, Clark only got one series (closing drive of the first half) in the spring game. He looked solid in pass protection.
I had kind of forgotten about Kyle Chung. That gives me hope that there might be a serviceable backup center option, and that is pretty huge.
Bitter nailed it on the head saying there is the big three. I do not see Osterloh as a possible starter though. He is HUGE but he got blown off by the second d-line a few times from what I saw. Clark is raw but could be molded by OSU.
I'm hoping that in the next couple years Steven will turn into the RB for the Peoples
*facepalm*
The Peoples Elbow!!!
But I thought DuWayne Johnson was a defensive recruit...
The most depressing thing about all of this is that the son of the greatest player in our schools history being unable to distinguish himself on either of the lines. Hopefully he turns a corner and is pancaking people soon...
It is a bummer but to compare any person to the success of their father is unfair. Different era and different people
Trust me as someone whose dad was also in the navy and made quite a name for himself I never stop getting comparisons so I completely understand. That being said he was 3/4 star recruiticorn and it would be nice to see him doing something...
OL will be the next spring game review... look for it on Monday.
I am excited about Mike Arnold, who arrives in the Fall.
Me too, could be a contributor by October and starter in 16.
I want to see Rogers and Peoples running right behind teller and punishing OSU linebackers until they can't stand it anymore!
I would love to see a Full House package with Rogers and Peoples both at FB with Reid getting the handoff behind them.
Something like this
Hell, put Redman back there as FB on a short yardage play.
I want to see our offense drop 42 points on anOSU. The look on Urban's face would be faaaaaantastic!!
I'm thinking he would look something like this...
But that probably goes for most of us.
But the following off season, he confirms it was just stress.
I want to see the score so lopsided in the Hokies' favor that Whit invites any registered TKP'ers in the stadium to come down and get in the game.
Dibs on Boundary Corner, aka Leonard Daycare Island.
Dibs on running back. Rick's for six!
I'd like to be DE, but I weigh over 220 so Wiles would move me inside. *ducks*
Dibs on TE. From there I should be able to play anywhere.
Win
Kicker right here.
Beamer approves
I'll play QB. The fans will be begging for brewer after I'm done
I'll take manager. I notice we often have some cute females running out there with water bottles and I wouldn't mind hanging out with that crowd.
I'll plow the field when it needs reseeded. Mow it every day when I'm hungry. Grounds crew FTW.
Sorry dude, we need you sitting in the stands with potential recruits. Because, you know, horse on a treadmill.
WR here. One of my school records in track still stands.
weren't you home-schooled?
/s
I just want to be the backup QB. Not ashamed to say it: Don't want to see the field, but want all the love.
Like Alex Moran from the first two seasons of Blue Mountain State. I agree.
leg for BMS connection. One of the best things on Netflix
Let me be backer, please.
I'm 6'4", 215. I'll cop some Taco Bell for 2 meals a day until Labor Day then you can throw me in at left guard.
...and I can be the coach!!!
DOWNVOTE! How bout you go park cars. You used to be a cop. Should be a breeze.
I thought we were all picking things we weren't able/qualified to do?
My bad. You were spot on then.
I can eat grass
I'll play MLB. Because I have longer hair than Andrew Motuapuaka which automatically makes me fit for the job.
TKP
the only place on the internet that has Hair Measuring contests..as opposed to....well...ya know
I keep tossing you lobs...this is like the
second or thirdthird or fourth post I've had in the last couple days where you swoop in with an awesome gif...do I get points for assists?edit: see below
(edit: I like this GIF better)
touche
That white hat feels so self-conscious about his lack of glorious flowing locks.