The most heavily scrutinized Virginia Tech player when the Hokies take the field against Alabama on August 31st will be quarterback Logan Thomas. Logan suffered through a debilitating 2012 campaign where he took a physical pounding, never fully established trust with his receivers outside of Corey Fuller, and completely lost the touch and accuracy that made him look like a bonafide first day NFL draft pick towards the end of the 2011 season. Scot Loeffler was tasked not only with re-establishing the Virginia Tech lunch pail mentality on the offensive side of the football, but also rebuilding Logan Thomas as a quarterback.
Those efforts produced mixed results in the spring. In two scrimmages, Thomas had some struggles in the face of a heavy pass rush and a limited playbook. In one scrimmage, he looked dynamite throwing deep skinny posts, fades, and bootlegs. The spring game, against the back up secondary and basic defenses, appeared to be a vehicle to give Logan a dominant performance and build confidence for the build up to the Tide.
Instead, the wheels came off. Thomas threw three poor interceptions, two of which were returned for touchdowns, and the partisan faithful cheered when Thomas was replaced by backup quarterback Mark Leal. A return to the field following a lengthy absence only resulted in additional consistency, and following the game some in the fan base were even uttering the unthinkable words "quarterback controversy." It was almost as if a sadistic screenwriter wrote a brutal, worst case scenario. I hammered Logan immediately following the game. It appeared that he was locking on to his primary read, and was not looking to secondary receivers, which allowed defensive backs to jump his routes. TheKeyPlay.com readers have speculated that these problems can be attributed to the limited playbook options, poor route running, or great coverage. Was my initial assessment unjust? Let's take a look at the film.
Does Success Equal Successful Execution?
Since launching French on the Bench, the natural focus of the column is to break down big, game changing plays and highlight why they worked, or why they failed. While that makes the column more interesting and gives a different perspective for why things work or don't work on a football field, it also isn't always a terrific methodology for analyzing the individual performance of a player, especially a quarterback. For Logan, I decided not to focus as much on the three interceptions, and take a close look at some of his completions to see if he was scanning the field, examine his mechanics, and take a look at how the play was developing down field.
This film review yielded mixed results. Logan's mechanics throughout the game look vastly improved. He has shortened his throwing motion, and a much higher percentage of passes were in the right vicinity as compared to last season. At the same time, on far too many plays, he was completely locked in on one receiver, resulting in two of the interceptions and failures to locate other receivers down field. Here, we have a 2nd-and-11.
6:34–6:43
Thomas takes the snap from the shotgun and his head immediately looks to his left.
He stays locked on, and then fires a frozen rope on a deep out to Josh Stanford. Donovan Riley successfully breaks up the play. If you watch Logan closely, he is completely locked into Stanford on the play. His lack of head movement would allow defenders (if in zone) to rotate over to Stanford, or at least get a jump on making the play after the catch. Even a look off would help Stanford on the play.
On the first series, Stanford made a huge play on a slant route to nearly score a touchdown. Logan even handled a poor snap to make the throw. But, SHOULD he have made the throw? And, did he properly analyze the play?
1:02–1:14
After getting a low snap, Logan stares down Stanford. If you freeze the film at 1:05, Logan is looking dead to Stanford without any kind of lookoff.
Deon Clarke is looking into the backfield and follows Logan's eyes to where the football will be delivered. An experienced linebacker would ease back into the zone and likely either intercept the pass or break up the pass (see Bruce Taylor on the G-W interception for a touchdown against Florida State in the 2010 ACC Championship Game), but Clarke second guesses himself and eases up at the last moment (perhaps worried that he is being overaggressive; overthinking makes the brain tie up the feet.) This is a poor decision by Thomas that ends up working out thanks to Clarke's hesitancy and a terrific play by Stanford.
Staring down receivers ultimately resulted in the first two interceptions. On the fourth and goal, the Hokies ran an interior pick play, looking to get Josh Stanford open on a five yard in route. Knowles runs a similar route. The key to the play is a 10 yard flag route by D.J. Coles in the slot. Thomas reads the defender covering Coles. If the defender gets pushed off by Coles, Logan hits Stanford on the in route. If the defender jumps the in route, Coles has an angle on the inside defender covering him on the flag route.
On film, we see that Logan reads the play incorrectly.
1:35–1:41
Der'Woun Greene (lines up on Coles) backpedals as if he is in man coverage, then widens to leave the nickel to cover Coles man-to-man. Logan locks in on Stanford rather than reading Greene. Greene plants and charges the throw, which is late because Thomas hesitates. He has no window to throw into.The better decision would have been to loft a soft high arcing pass to the back corner of the end zone, where Coles was somewhat open on the flag route. The throw isn't easy, but Coles was open enough that the pass would sail harmlessly out of bounds or Coles would make the catch.
The second interception is more difficult to analyze based on this film (we can't see the routes develop downfield). At the snap Logan takes his first step away from center with the right leg , opening his shoulders and head to the right sideline. It appears that he is looking at the receiver flexed to the right side (who I believe is D.J. Coles.) His eyes move quickly from right to left as if he is tracking Coles, but if he is, Coles is open for a short window. I think that Logan was just turning his head to go with his second backpedal to lock in on Stanford, who appears to be running a 12 yard in from the left sideline. From his second step, through his plant and step into the throw, Logan is completely locked in on Stanford, even though Donovan Riley (who played a magnificent game) was in Stanford's hip pocket, and two other defenders were within 5-7 yards underneath the route. Even if Coles was the primary read, Logan should not have fixated and stayed with Stanford.
2:48–2:58
I am not sure if Stanford is at fault here, but it looks like the ball never should have been thrown.
Other plays, Logan does work through progressions, but misses open opportunities. One particular play drove me absolutely nuts while at the game.
5:28–5:35
After taking the snap, Logan blindly looks to his right, where Knowles runs a go route. A go route requires some time, but Logan checks down quickly to Ryan Malleck on a delayed out to the right flat. He gets a small amount of pressure from Ken Ekanem, but it is easily avoidable by taking a step up into the well-developed pocket. Instead of stepping up into the pocket and keeping his eyes focused downfield, he throws off balance to his second check down, Coleman on a delay to the left. This is also the one clear example of Logan's mechanics breaking down. The rushed throw forces Coleman to go down to a knee, meanwhile Knowles had more than 20 yards of wide open space down the right sideline because both the corner and the safety on the right side froze to jump Malleck coming out of the backfield. This is the classic example of poor pocket presence.
It is unfair to lump the failure of some of these plays strictly in Logan's lap. Some of the plays may have been poor route running, or perhaps even Bud Foster's "basic" defenses are more complex than most defensive systems that quarterbacks face in the spring game. Logan had major flashes of improvement. His throw to Stanford for the slant gets intercepted with anything less than elite arm strength and mechanics. The same stands true with the out pattern to Stanford highlighted earlier. His best completion play of the day involved a throw to McCray (lined up as a wide receiver) in between a corner and safety playing cover 2.
4:55–5:01
Prior to the throw, Logan looks short to the left flat to Edmunds who lines up as a slot. Logan looks hard to the flat, forcing the shallow zone to come forward. Logan then looks up and lays the ball into McCray short of the safety. He used head movement, made the correct read, and made a precision touch pass. He had numerous beautiful throws over the course of spring practice. The physical tools are there, but he has to incorporate all the skills of the quarterback position, every play, in order to elevate the Hokies to championship contenders. Alabama will mix and match defenses, bring edge pressure and drop defensive tackles into zone coverage. They will press, role coverage towards Logan's security blankets. Saban will do everything in his power to force Logan Thomas to try to win the game, with the hope that he loses it trying. In the face of that challenge, Logan Thomas will need to have his best game, and the staff has to make sure that he doesn't have to win the game. Run the ball, force turnovers, get the lead, and let Logan Thomas make plays on bootlegs (which I will highlight next week) and other play-action to move the chains. Do those things, and the Hokies will stun the world.
Comments
Baby steps.
We're going to need our defense and special teams to bring their best game every day next season. We saw in the scrimmages that we have some eager and hungry players on defense, which is promising.
This season I don't expect our offense to explode, but I do expect them to better control the game and not grab a defeat from the jaws of victory. This is very much contingent on whether we can establish a robust run game once again. However, I'm not ready to write-off LT3 or any other offensive player in 2013, just yet. Nothing would delight us more than to see a Hokie offense firing on all cylinders.
I have a lot of respect for the knowledge you bring to the running game, blocking schemes, and blocking technique in particular. I'm not sure your passing breakdowns are in the same league though.
Things to keep in mind:
1. A lot of the throws where you are criticizing him for "locking on" are pre-designated based on the defenses alignment. In your first example, LT saw that Stanford had one on one coverage based on alignment. Stanford should win (and does win) that match-up the majority of the time with an out-route. A look-off wouldn't have mattered, it was man coverage. No safety help to distract with eye movement. Also, the throw was perfect and should have been caught, Riley didn't "break up the play" Stanford dropped it. Can't hang that one on Logan.
Same thing on the long Stanford completion. A classic "three step drop" timing route (out of the shotgun though so not technically a "3-step-drop"). Based on alignment, LT knows that Stanford will beat his man on the inside slant and he must get the ball there quickly. No look off necessary. The throw looks close not because LT stares him down but because of a low snap which slows down the timing. No LB in that alignment would crash that route based on reading LT's eyes. The only thing LT would have to worry about in a game situation for that route would be the LB rotating over towards the flat immediately after the snap to cover a CB blitz (which is why it's important to have him looking there rather then have LT "look off" the LB). This is a common read and great throw by LT, not the lucky one you claim it is.
- Your analysis on the first INT is spot on though, LT had his mind made up pre-snap where he was throwing it and rather then adjusting to the defensive coverage he trusted his arm to force it in. Big mistake.
The Second INT is too hard to tell which receiver LT is looking at to accuse him of locking on. Looks to me like there are double "IN" routes and LT makes the correct read against cover-3 defense (Inside route runs the MOTF safety off and backside route catches in the vacated space). However, reading the defensive coverage and reading the defense are separate things. Riley does a fantastic job at reading the route combo (T.Gray has done an amazing job at teaching his secondary what WR's are trying to do against them) and jumps the route. LT shouldn't have thrown the ball because Stanford lost the physical match up. With all day to throw, he should have moved on to his third progression.
I do agree with your overall themes though. Yes, LT has improved his mechanics greatly and Yes, LT still has a tendency to pick a receiver out pre-snap and latch onto him (as evidenced in the first INT, although I don't think he did this in the spring game as frequently as others do).
French, you still have the best free analysis of Tech football on the interwebs (and having the clips to correspond is awesome, shout-out Billdozer)! Keep doing your thing, never miss it!
Great post. I find it funny just how often I see reason and logic on this site. I guess people don't know that the appropriate internet response is an emotional, caps-laden rant about how French sucks at what he does and is probably homosexual. Get it together, people.
Lllloooove-it.
Heh, many go to the ESPN blog to see that.
<<>>
CORRECTION--French's analysis of Tech football is the best, free OR paid. Thanks to French, I dropped my subscription to TSL. Coleman and Stewart are nice guys and good reporters, but when it comes to Xs and Os, French forgets more football before breakfast than they have ever known...
I've actually found that TSL and TKP/French compliment each other perfectly. I get 3 or 4 different views of things from people with different strengths/expertise but all are pretty knowledgeable when it comes to football. I don't think I'll be dropping my TSL subscription any time soon, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the heck outta the discussion here at TKP.
Admitedly, I am a work in progress on the passing game. Your analysis is excellent on the "quick pass"/3 step drop to Stanford. However, the wildcard in the discussion is Clarke in the short zone. Bud Foster designs defenses to make that slant LOOK available because he is showing man coverage, and then the linebacker underneath in the zone drops into the zone. It is a different version of the robber concept we discussed this past summer. When Logan looks at that slant, he has to see Clarke. Only an elite arm and Clarke's hesitancy prevented that from being an INT. Hopefully, Bryn Renner and AJ McCarron will make the same mistake and not have the arm strength to overcome it.
I can't disagree with you on the 2nd pick because I couldn't see the coverage downfield. My concern with the throw was Riley being in such close proximity with two underneath defenders available to take care of an underthrow. Riley made one hell of a play (he had a terrific all around game and would be my opening day starter if Exum is hurt.)
Yea, I actually agree, on both the out and the slant, that locking on was not the major mistake.
On the out, I can't tell if the Corner is playing a zone or man drop, but it looks like man as he was draping/following Stanford. In that instance, while it's not ideal to stare down the receiver, the QB can, because the DB is staring at the WR chest. In my opinion, Logan's mistake was the the throw was late, a little after Stanford's initial break, allowing the DB to catch up. It also would've helped if Stanford would've cut back toward the line of scrimmage another 1/2 yard, creating more space. Correcting these minute details, and then Logan and Stanford will be completing the out-route 4-5 times a game as it is unstoppable against man coverage.
And on the slant, I agree with Hokiefan that the pass came out late due to the fumbling of the snap. However, I do agree with French that the completion was a little bit lucky. Should Logan have gone somewhere else with the ball because of the bobble? Probably, as an experienced LB may have very well fallen into that zone and picked that ball off. But, of course, when you have an arm like Logan, you will often find a way to zip the ball into tight spaces.
I'm pretty positive it's a Cover 3. It's definitely a zone based on how the LB's drop back (in particular LB #42 lined up on the slot, he's going to slide to a middle zone). Let's count the numbers to see how many are dropping back in the final 3rd of the defense.
If you pause the tape at 2:54 (when the interception is made) you can see 7 white shirt defenders, 4 of whom are located in front of the receivers. That only leaves 3 in the final third, which is a cover 3. Foster loves to use one of his safeties (historically his Rover) as a robber. Rather then split the middle of the field with two inside backers, (as diagrammed here http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/532036/cover3seam.jpg) he'll split it with one ILB and his safety, which allows Foster to disguise coverages easier and get a better pass defender in the middle of the field.
Foster gets away with using Cover-3 so much because T.Gray is one of the best secondary coaches in the country. Riley is coached to know that Offenses will use two receivers to out-leverage him by running the Safety out of the MOTF and then throw to Riley's inside position. Receivers should be able to "box him out" for the catch. However, since he knows this he anticipates the break and makes a great play to beat the RCVR to the ball.
If Logan wants to get drafted in the First round, he has to recognize that Riley is going to break on the ball and instead throw underneath to his Reciever that is mismatched on the LB. I can't tell who it is, but at the beginning of the play there is a WR who lines up at the top of the formation and runs a shallow cross. The LB has him covered at the time LT throws, but if LT waits half a beat (and he has all day to throw) then the WR will run free and right into the area vacated by Riley (who jumps stanford's route).
Seems a lot more complicated then it is. LT made the textbook throw against Cover 3, but if his RCVR gets beat to the spot, he's got to recognize it and throw to the vacated area.
NVM, misread your post. Thought you were referring to the "In" instead of the "Out" route.
You are correct, the out-route coverage (first clip posted) could absolutely be man or zone.
Every time I watch the First INT, I see the same thing. Stanford breaks to the inside, Thomas starts his throw, Green comes off of Coles and hits Stanford knocking him off his route just as the ball is leaving Thomas' hand. If I'm the official watching it, I call Green for Pass Interference.
I agree, except that it's Knowles that LT is zeroed in on, and who gets trucked by Greene
I just went by French's identification of the receiver as Stanford, going back and watching the play, I can see that its Knowles.
I did think that Knowles had great effort trying to chase Greene down and strip the ball. I
You can see that LT is improving his skills tremendously so far. He just needs to continue working on them in the "voluntary" workouts during the offseason.
Great as always French. While I agree that Logan locked on a bit on the first interception, Knowles can not let Greene get between him and the ball that is rule number 1 as a receiver, you must stay between the ball and the defender. He has to be much stronger especially at the goal line. I look forward to watching the progression of Thomas and Loeffler and you can already see based on the limited film that we have, Logan is playing with a renewed energy compared to last year.
Makes me wonder if it's even worth having Knowles in goal line sets. On the flipside, DJ Coles will be a monster there.
To some extent, I wonder if LT is thinking about getting his mechanics right, thereby tying up his mind and slowing his thought process on his progressions. Hopefully this is something that can get straightened out over the summer. I think once things become second nature to LT, we could be looking at a very good QB.
I would say that he is absolutely thinking about it right now and it will be more natural for him come fall practice!
It definitely appears he is very conscience of is mechanics progression. Almost like an old school dancer saying the numbered steps instead of "knowing" it from muscle memory. This will all happen as he works through the summer. Hopefully
What drills would a QB practice to improve defense reading and improve his receiver progressions? Defense reading seems like a film study recognition, while receiver progressions seem like a difficult-to-simulate scrimmage scenario. Is this what 7-on-7 is designed to practice?
French,
Back on NSD, it looked like you were going to write up a Signee Profile on each of the new Hokies. The Bucky Hodges and Cequan Jefferson posts were excellent, do you still plan on writing up the others?
It's understandable if time constraints prohibit this, but many of us would be happy to read more Signee Profiles, however brief they are.
I am planning on doing a write up on the bootleg/waggle action that supplements our post on the inside/outside zone. The bootleg forces the backside pursuit to respect the threat of the bootleg (both the QB run and the drag/flat combo) and that creates lanes for the back to cut into. There were a couple of running plays during the spring game where the back side defensive end and the safety both crashed deep inside. Several times, Ekanem made the tackle, but if VT had faked the play and run reverse or a bootleg, both contain defenders were sucked inside and the edge was wide open.)
When we hit the dog days, I plan to do a film review on some of the top new guys who are expected to play this year. Right now, I am planning to focus on McLaughlin, Faycson, Fuller, and Harris (if he qualifies.)
Gotcha, thanks. We really appreciate the contributions made by all of the TKP Staff.
Still not seeing how that goal-line INT was being thrown to Stanford. The ball would've hit Knowles in the face if Greene hadn't shoved him and jumped in front. The red route on the diagram is being run by #80 and Stanford's route is actually 2-3 yards deeper.. he crosses into the endzone before making his (sloppy) cut inside.
My guess is that as he was releasing the ball, LT thought Knowles had shielded off Greene during the collision and instead Greene is the one that chucked Knowles out of the way. IMO pass interference as Greene made contact when the ball was being released.
My eyes were playing tricks on me. That is Knowles. And yes, Greene made contact early, but even without the contact, Knowles is running right into two defenders and Thomas didn't see Green. Best throw is to Coles on the flag so it is either a TD or a harmless incompletion.
agree 100% he forced it in there uneccesarily. When the fade is open, take it! Undefendable if the ball is in the right place.
yeah...but isn't that kinda the problem?
Logan can throw the fade. See Fuller against FSU.
I know he can most of the time, but his placement isn't really consistent...he does have the ability to throw a ton of throws but in my opinion they are all fairly inconsistent, but that's where Loeffler is doin his work I guess
Logan has all summer to learn to throw the fade consistently (and with his receiver's speed-Knowes and size-Coales he should learn it!). Take a page from Erick Green's offseason workout...practice it thousands of times. Take a trash can and place it at the corner of the end zone (just out of bounds). Drop back and throw over-and-over until you hit the can consistantly.
Eh, disagree. Logan has hit that type of throw multiple times in the red zone.
Besides, very very few QB's hit that throw "consistently" in College. Most offenses have other packages they like in the red zone more. Unless you have an extreme mismatch why waste a play on a straight up 1 on 1 battle?
This. I have no idea what Logan thought he saw. Just a really, really bad interception.
The other ones I can understand (right throw against the cover 3 but better play by the CB, and a bad overthrow to a wide open receiver), but this one... it's just indefensible.
We're talking about the first pick, right? It was 4th down though, so an incompletion would be the same as a turnover. Doesn't that change the math a little bit?
Incompletion instead of pick six, takes the points off the board and forces the White team to start deep in their territory. I still don't see how the refs missed the PI which would have gave them new downs and probably changes the whole complexion of how the offense plays the rest of the game.
Possibly. I for one think that us having a poor offensive showing was the best thing that could have happened. It motivates our team to work over the summer and will up the intensity and focus come Aug.
Also the new point spread will fire up our leaders (hopefully we have some this year) and I really feel like we are going to surprise Bama come #AUG31. I predict right now that we beat them. It will be close but MARK MY WORDS we WILL BEAT BAMA.
Hokies gonna win 32-27. That ain't no guess, that's what its gon be!
that ball was intended for 80 ... i agree .. great thread guys
the real question about LT is what caused his huge regression last season from 2011 .. and what's to say it doesn't happen again?
bottom line -- our OL needs to play much better and we need to at least have a mediocre running game for LT to have any chance at succeeding this season.
The players around him (i.e. inexperience and not having full trust in them), the new complex schemes, and deficient O-line played a huge role in his regression. He also put too much pressure on himself, and over thought things; he pretty much was the entire offense in 2012. But these are all things we hope will be corrected in large part this season. The playbook already seems to be a vast improvement.
The "blame the o-line" for everything is getting pretty old, if you guys read the breakdown by "wasp" & others that actually know what they are talking about, the pass protection was pretty good, the run blocking was'nt bad at all considering they ran (3) run plays over & over, makes no difference if was against the 2nd team D, they knew what was coming.
Wide zone blocking does not "blow people off the line" it is lateral blocking, pushing the D-Line laterally.
Read some of the analysis by the experts before going with the same old crap about the OL, tight ends, running backs, wide receivers all must block to make a play work. When a safety or corner makes the tackle it usually is not the OL's fault.
Word of advice: we refer to French60Wasp as simply "French" here, not to be confused with UVA which often bears the moniker "France." Welcome to TKP :)
But yes, I really hope we can put the days of blaming the OL behind us. I think Grimes will do a pretty good job in making sure that's not an issue anymore.
I wonder who the next in line to blame will be? First we had Glennon, then the OL, who's next?
Who am I kidding, it will ALWAYS be Glennon's fault.
There are a few common themes about VT football; The defense and special teams are always a strength, the O-Line is not, the running game comes first, and the passing game is about efficiency. Improve the O-Line and you've got a national contender. Just sayin'.
To any lurkers out there considering joining, I'm guessing the "BlameTheOL" username is still available.
More appropriate would be "OneBlockAway" or something that references the coaches stating we were always a "block or two away" from big plays and TDs instead of the dreadful offensive display we've become accustomed to.
i was writing more in the context of the oline vs last season's oline .. and call last year's oline what ya want .. it sucked .. we couldn't run the ball period -- and a one-dimensional offense which was "good" at best just isn't gonna work. won't work this season either.
This thread, not the column, is the reason I write here at The Key Play. It is a community, and we are only as strong as the quality of the discussion. Thanks everybody!
After watching these cut ups, which are terrific, and the game overall, I'm not ready to panic on the offense yet. I think you saw vanilla out here and nothing but base plays, with the exception on the Malleck touchdown. The thing I see the most is a base plan, and a cohesive offensive approach. I can see what SL is trying to do. That's a change from the past few years. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens this summer.
That Malleck play was a thing of beauty as far as play concepts and execution goes. Completely fooled that side of the D. If they can nail the zone plays and play action, window dressing like a late TE release straight up the field in a vacated zone will hit for huge gains.
If Loeffler had run bootleg more, Ekanem would not have been crashing down to cut off the run back side. I think he ran it enough to get film and then stayed away. It was there all day because Ekanem and the middle backers were selling out against the run.
If you can't execute vanilla what good are gimmicks? Are defenses too sophisticated and athletic that vanilla can't work any more? Does execution depend on having better talent? Many questions left to answer. I think it all comes down to playmakers and I'm not sure VT has enough of them on offense.
I disagree with the lack of playmakers on the offensive side of the ball. The important part is having them all out there at the same time. If you ask me, based upon what I saw in Spring Game and read from practices and scrimmages, my offense would have Logan under center with Edmunds in the backfield, Coles at Flanker, Stanford at Split End, Coleman in the slot, Malleck or McCray as the tight end and then whatever line Grimes feels works. Those guys are the playmakers on our offense. The problem is that we can't have those same guys out there every down of the game. Knowles has to step his game up and be consistent, Beiro will get some action as well and we should see him used effectively, and we will work 2 tight end sets with Malleck and McCray/Duan Perez-Means.
Knowles would always be on the field in a 3 WR set, not Coleman. MUCH more dangerous to stretch the field and create space. Coleman is much better suited as a 3rd down back. He isn't fluid enough catching in traffic to put as a regular in the slot.
Where do you see Manugs fitting in?
Honestly, nowhere yet. He is a very vanilla runner. Great speed if the hole is there, but he is not elusive. He spent most of the scrimmage being buried in the backfield.
Eventually at Kick/Punt Returner?