http://www.wdbj7.com/content/news/Falwell-Liberty-University-football-ma...
Liberty's president Jerry Falwell Junior says the school may enter the Division One Football Bowl Subdivision in a matter of "months."
I just don't understand what Liberty hopes to gain from jumping up to FBS. It's not like ODU which has the built in advantage to being only team in beach area. They also have disadvantages which deal with their university makeup and student body.
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Is the school built on a diamond mine or something? That place has exploded in the last 8 to 10 years. I knew televangelists can bring in some cash but damn. Not saying its a bad place because I do have some friends that went/go there, but the amount of growth at the speed at which its happened sort of makes you pause a little bit. Either they really are printing money or are going well beyond their means and a hard crash is coming
It's their online student base, largest in the country. Between 70-80,000 online students.
Quick opinion poll here. To me this many online degrees dilutes the value of the all the degrees issued by the university. I wonder how many online degrees the Harvards, Yales, and Oxfords of the world issue.
That would be my thought as well, but I guess it depends on the type of degree. If it's heavily weighted towards lectures I suppose it wouldn't make a difference if you were there in person or not. My brother-in-law got an MBA from TTU and didn't step foot on campus until walked to get hooded. In that case his company was paying for it and his subsequent jobs paid him for having a "real" MBA so I assume that's kosher.
Does that first T stand for TX or TN?
I've considered an online MBA, but my company only pays $5,200/yr towards education.
Tennessee Tech
It definitely dilutes the value of all of the degrees. I'd say it devalues the entire institution. Not trying to be mean to Liberty grads but yeah, it does.
That's just not true. Every degree program and school is different. Online classes can be very valuable for many subjects, degree programs especially for people who are already working.
I think the biggest issue concerning online degrees is that the concept has been tarnished by for-profit online diploma mills like University of Phoenix and Kaplan. Those degrees really are worth less. But online classes at a quality university are a different animal.
This is more of what I was driving at. I feel like people see those institutions and assume all on-line universities are like that. As a result public perception of other universities with legitimate on-line programs is diminished.
RPI (Rensselaer Polytechnic institute) up here in NY is very well respected, but the Navy had to sever their relationship a few years ago. The nukes taking the online program were getting "benefit of the doubt", not even having to complete assignments & such. Only recently has RPI become an option again.
Preach on, brother. I recently got an email from one of these places (might have been Phoenix) asking if I wanted to get my Ph.D. completely online, part-time, in 1.5 years.
I looked over to my real doctorate, then my 422-page dissertation on my shelf, and recalled the 60-80 hour work weeks I put in for five years to get my Ph.D. I laughed, then cried a little bit (thinking of people who might actually claim a "Ph.D." from one of these diploma mills), then laughed a bit more before hitting delete.
Liberty Grad with my Master in Special Education and worked for the online program for 4 years. The online school accreditation is very strenuous and all professors are required to either have their PHD or seeking their PHD to teach online. Also they also have transitioned to hiring professors with degrees outside of Liberty University to add to diversity in each field of study. Just because Jerry Jr. is a frat boy on a good time vacation doesn't mean the people working for him doesn't have has a plan to keep Liberty relevant. I didn't have any problems finding a job but there are definitely a lot of worship majors and youth ministry majors looking for jobs.
Definitely the money is from the online side. You would be shocked how much money they make compared to how much the cost is to start a new online class from scratch. The are non profit and have to constantly spend it. They have so much to burn, they are currently working on an indoor football facility that is going to be huge. I drive by it once a week.
Don't ya hate that
you're comparing LIberty to Harvard, Yale and Oxford?
Compare Liberty to whatever tier school it is. I have no idea, I assume 2nd to 3rd.
I have lots of opinions, and no time or interest to go into depth. I'll just say there's a lot of blame to go around for the devaluation of the modern college degree, and the "online degree" phenomena almost entirely exists because of those reasons.
living in lynchburg i know a lot of people at various positions in the university. Here's what I've heard: for a long time the school was requiring a ton of outside money (quid pro quo donations from politicians, Falwell Sr's televangelist cash, etc) to keep functioning. They were so far in the red, their books could be used to keep food warm at Moe's. Their attendance and alumni base grew over the years and they crept towards functioning more like a normal university. Lately, they're online enrollment has skyrocketed, which has helped a ton. Apparently as of two years ago, they are completely weaned from non-traditional funding for normal operations. So any extra money getting poured into the school is going straight into big money improvements (buildings, sports complex, another bridge over 460, etc).
So how do you grow online programs at such a phenomenal rate? Specifically who do you hire to teach all of those classes. From what I have learned you hire anyone with a pulse. And make some kind of twisted arguments to the accredittors that these instructors have the proper credentials.
I have heard things recently that LU has started to get a lot of pushback from SACs the accrediting body for this area. I would not be surprised if in the next few years they had their accreditation yanked. Just like ITT recently you have a "university" that gets a ton of federal financial aid convincing students to pile on debt for a degree that is turning out to have little value.
Now look, LU has some ok programs but many of the new online degrees have a terrible reputation in their field. As it stands right now, I doubt seriously that I would hire someone who had just completed an online degree from there.
They may want to play Tech and ND in D1 football, but academically they don't belong in the same conversation.
This thread has gotten too close to political discussion.
This line cannot continue without getting into politics.
Sorry about that. If your going to talk about how a school like LU can stand up a D1 athletics program overnight, it seems legit to address the academic side. To be honest I don't see at all how this discussion has anything to do with politics. But I am happy to let it go.
Addressing ITT becomes political.
Discussing LU's program as if it was indistinguishable from ITT enters the discussion back into this politics.
I get it, you don't like online schooling.
I work in a field where there are very few schools available. I'd love to go live and work and go to school in Europe for a a year, or to California for a few. But by wife's career and our family makes that incredibly impractical and very expensive. I have completed my schooling through professor lead online classes. And where were my professors? Well, I can tell you that one was in South Africa. The prof does not have to be in Lynchburg.
I took classes from diverse schools such as Norte Dame while hunting cargo ship killers in the Persian Gulf and Chasing Soviet around the South China Sea.
These schools have their place, others seriously disagree.
A brief on your distaste for online degrees is sufficient. More than that and you start to offend.
I have been working the last couple of weeks with former ITT Students and it's been heartbreaking what's happened to them. I have taught online myself as has my wife for many years. It can certainly be a great experience. My point in that post was that what
Liberty is doing to fund a massive growth in their sports programs is really built on some questionable stuff. And I believe there will be repercussions down the line. If I were a Sunbelt school, I would be incredbly hesitant before admitting them.
Egbert, I certainly try not to be offensive. Sorry if that went to far. This by far one of my favorite online communities and I wouldn't do anything to harm that.
Cheers,
EDIT fixed some typos
Exactly why I warned this is getting too close to political.
Anecdotes are insufficient data points.
I know plenty of very nice people that I swear should get a refund from their 4 year, yet I know the school is a good one.
As pointed out below, it's on the individual to make the most of what is offered.
ITT was basically a giant scam that had the side effect of educating some people well enough for them to obtain gainful employment. Not seeing how that is a political topic...
I wish Tech would invest more in online degrees. I'd jump right on to that.
You and me both.
There is a reason that Tech did not. It is incredibly difficult to develop and deliver a high quality degree program online. It takes time and money. Tech has too much integrity to take shortcuts and deliver a crappy product.
EDIT in this post I was addressing why schools like Tech don't offer more online programs. It takes time to build them and to hire quality faculty to teach them. The ones Tech does offer have great reputations. Sorry fo not being clearer.
Yet they offer masters degrees with online learning.
ODU has the best online program in state IMO. If they want to get serious about online, look that way.
Well I guess my online Masters of Information Technology degree that I have on my wall from Virginia Tech is worthless and just a flaming pile of crap. So much for wanting to improve myself and to have a piece of paper on my wall with VPI on it because I couldn't afford to go to my dream school for undergrad. Sorry for the sarcasm, but my hard work being called a "crappy product" struck a nerve along with other individuals' comments poopooing on online degrees.
I'm not naive enough to think that I got the same level of learning as if I attended grad school in Blacksburg, but I found it extremely valuable for improving myself at work. I was working lots of overtime to provide for my family and was a new dad while taking these classes. It would have never happened if it wasn't for taking classes online.
At the end of the day, the piece of paper might help someone get in the door, but once the work starts, we are ultimately judged by the quality of our work and not the piece of paper on our wall or even what means of learning (online or brick and mortar) we used to get that degree.
This right here. For some people enrolling at 18 or 19 just isn't an option. Whether it's family obligations or financial it's not always feasible. My mom found her job outsourced at age 53. Staying near the school wasn't an option and neither was commuting. She ended up taking a mixture of satellite classes and online for her associate's at Wytheville Community College and all online for her bachelor's at ODU (still all Hokie though). It may not be as prestigious as a standard bachelor's, but it's the only option that really worked for her
I agree with all of this as I obtained my MBA half online and half with night classes. The online courses are great for the non-traditional student, but 70,000 - 80,000 a year?!? I would be absolutely stunned if those were all people working full time. No way. Diploma mill. I would be upset if I was a student at Liberty full time to see my degree be devalued for university profit.
In a down economy? Sure, why not.
According to the Federal Dept of Ed., over 5,500,000 students were enrolled in distance education classes at the university level, 2,560,000 were exclusively disctance learning.
Your thoughts on online education are outmoded.
https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=80
Edit: with just a bit more digging I find that abou 30% of LU online students are military personnel. Perfect people for online and distance learning.
Their enrollment also includes international students so, count the number of people in their potential pool at much greater then the 5.5 million per year I stated above.
Edit:edit: a little more digging.
I find U.S News and world Report for 2016 puts them at 100th place overall in online schools.
http://www.usnews.com/education/online-education/liberty-university-1039...
With a decent ranking, a competitive price, I wonder if there is something that might make them unique to attract students?
To add a bit to that, I've looked a little bit at going back for my Master's and have looked mostly at Virginia Tech and Liberty's online programs. They have about the same cost and if I ever do go back, it'll be a tough choice for me on which one to go with.
For the same cost, I'd go Virginia Tech.
Not all online degrees are cut from the same cloth.
I'd suggest that many are less-demanding (easier admissions, less rigorous) than their bricks and mortar counterparts, but there are some highly-rated ones as well.
It's difficult to believe that a program that has an enrollment of 80,000 is all that rigorous. That said, someone can certainly learn a lot from them. Often it's more about how much you put into the coursework than how it's presented.
I've taken classes through Coursera. Free to participate, costs money to get a certificate, and you can take classes from many great schools with great professors. Is it the same as actually attending classes at Duke or Penn (where the classes originate)? No. Can you learn the material if you apply yourself? Yes.
I am horribly afraid that my post gave the exact opposite impression of what I intended. Tech has some fantastic online prorgrams that they have taken the time to build the right way. That was my point. Tech did not grow from a handful of online students to 80,000 overnight. Tech also houses some of the leading innovators and researchers in online education. So in fact an online program from a high quality institution can in some ways provide an experience that you could only get online.
I humbly apologize for my lack of clarity in my original post. I can see how it was offensive but I assure you it was what I intended.
Overnight?
A brief glimpse at Google results tells me that LU has been doing distance learning since 1985.
That's what, 32 years?
In my opinion 32 years is not overnight.
Yea with cassette tape lessons and papers needed to be mailed in every week for grading
Egbert, if you want to continue to defend that the unprecedented growth at LU has not been problematic, feel free. I have seen enough evidence to the contrary to feel pretty confident in my position. If your interested I can pull the growth rate numbers at work on Monday for LU over the last 30 years and you'll see that it's heavily concentrated in the last eight. If you like, we can meet up for a beer somewhere and discuss this further. You could drop some of your extensive brewing knowledge on me, I would love to soak some of that up. I really don't want to leave any hard feelings.
I was kind of offended by your original comments, but you clarified, apologized, and we're all good.
Have some beer.
Yet countless other schools that are ranked as high, or higher, than Tech have online programs
Don't know about diamond mine, but they produced this gem of college football
"ERIN ANDREWS WAS BETTER"
Tell that to my wife. She still curses at the mention of Erin Andrews to this day, but there's a story behind it.
So it's half time at Lane Stadium on a Thursday night. We're playing #10 Clemson so Erin Andrews is there and setting up her shot for the halftime report. My wife was in guard so she's on the outer edges of the forms near the sidelines where Erin Andrews is. So she's in her starting spot and getting ready to step off into her first set. Well, Erin is about 10 feet away talking to her camera guy and waiting to do her report. My wife yells over to Erin, "Hey! You need to move, you're in my way." Erin turns around and scoffs at her with a "you don't tell me what to do" look. Time didn't permit any debate so the band steps off and my wife starts into her routine to her next drill spot and runs right through Erin Andrews and whacks her in the shoulder with her flag. Erin Andrews calls my wife some expletives to which she replies, "I told you to move."
On the contrary, Sam is kind of a bitch on twitter. But yeah, that kinda sucks. I would think there'd be more coordination between bands and ESPN. Also, I was on drumline during high school so I think I'm supposed to like hate your wife but that was like 10 years ago so yeah we're cool now.
I played in and taught drumlines, too. I guess I'm supposed to hate my wife, but we actually met while teaching at the same high school. I think the drumline/guard rivalry is only a high school thing. After that, they're pretty ok.
Yup, I shot a wedding with a drummer marrying a guard girl. Love blossoms from old rivalries.
TIL that the drumline/guard rivalry is more universal than I originally thought.
..kidding me?
so that's puts us at what, 3 FBS teams in the state of Virginia? Us, ODU, and Liberty. how fun.
well, maybe Liberty thinks that with the increased scholarships, they could make a play for Virginia players that don't end up at Tech? I mean, they will be the only FBS school in central Virginia which makes them conveniently located for anyone in NC or VA. If they just assume they'll be aiming at 2*-3*, there's a ton of talent to be had without even recruiting outside the region. Find a nice spot in Sun Belt or something and they could start working towards relevancy and an AAC invite at some point. Maybe we can convince them to take over our yearly game against Eastern Carolina?
I'd prefer if ODU took that spot. show our face in the 757 every other year, great for recruiting.
I meant liberty plays ECU instead of us. You know, like a wingman taking the fat friend.
oohhh, my bad. got ya.
I mean if BYU can do it...
It was one of Falwell's senior's aspirations that Liberty would compete in all Division 1 sports. I imagine junior has that in mind.
I believe he had some quote about trying to compete with "the Catholics" aka Notre Dame.
Jerry said it, I was there for that winner of a quote. He also said ring by spring for all the ladies to start a true "Liberty Family Culture". Good man, never forgot a name, but he left us his son Jerry Jr. He's the one pushing the D-1 track really hard
What was the context of the quote about Notre Dame?
can't find Jerry's but here is Jerry Jr's which is along the same lines.
We've tried Catholics vs. Protestants before. It usually ends with someone getting burned at the stake.
They could probably beat BC and LOLUVA
FTFY
And yet JMU, with the second best stadium in Virginia, continues to toil in FCS...
How is JMU's stadium better than our 2nd home (Lane North)?
They have real fans
Hey, our 2nd stadium has real, authentic fans in it (albeit every other year)
Edit: I also think lane North needs a skipper and a larger score board, hope whit can muster something up for us, it's a bit dated over there.
I did some work on JMU's stadium and the only nice part about it is a few of the suites are nice. The rest of it is all aluminum and purple. They have a lobby room in there which was littered with pictures of that game they supposedly won back in 2010. That is a bigger deal to them than winning their national championship
Most do think its a bigger deal. I disagree, put more weight on the Natty. That, however, may have something to do with my status as JMU alum/diehard Hokie.
FBS has enough open hellmouths and doesn't need to add Harrisonburg.
They've been looking to move for a few years now. I don't see how it's a matter of months when no one wants to invite them. Coastal got an invite to the Sun Belt which was LU's preferred destination.
Maybe they will take ECU's spot after they move to
the Big12...oops nevermind.No one want Liberty until all their sport arena's can support D-1 competition. That's why they are doing all this
http://www.liberty.edu/aboutliberty/?PID=27192
Oh and building their own Eye of Sauron
via GIPHY
I guess it's worth a shot? I'm guessing this won't work out.
If they hire the same person that wrote the letter to the Big 12 on behalf of Eastern Carolina, there is no chance of it working out.
As long as the Federal government is willing to subsidize online education as if it's the same as on-campus learning, and businesses will hire those folks, expect online education to grow.
Their motivation is clear, as they get a certain legitimacy from having a campus and a football program, which validates those online degrees. After a certain amount of time, it all looks legit.
And Ivy League schools are also creating degrees that be earned online, so who can argue that it's not legitimate?
We've established what they are. We're just haggling over the price.
University of Phoenix has a football stadium
It also somehow roped in larry Fitzgerald
I too questioned that commercial, didn't he go to Pitt?
He didn't graduate (left early). Promised his mom he would get his degree.
Makes sense. The goal is to add legitimacy.
University of Phoenix degrees are more or less accepted in the business/government world by anyone who is looking to see if the box is checked. Many of it's programs are accredited.
I have a good friend who is a hotel manager at Marriott and he had someone apply for their hotel accountant position which required an MBA. The applicant had an MBA from University of Phoenix and apparently his higher-ups told him to reject it because it wasn't a real MBA and didn't count.
Granted this was about 5 years ago now, so before the whole online degree thing really became legitimized.
my brother in law who got that online MBA from TTU later left the company that paid for his degree and got a job as an auditor for Marriott corporate. So it's not a problem with online degrees, probably just UofP.
Like with traditional degrees, the value depends mostly on the university and program the degree is coming from, and also the accreditation of the degree.
Programs that at least offer a campus-based degree are generally the most respected. There are intangibles that do matter. That said, if what you can get is an online degree due to time commitments, financial constraints, or logistics, an online degree can work provide the certification that checks most boxes.
The funny thing about MBAs is that there is a huge prestige factor among the top programs, but outside of that the main factor is whether the program is accredited.
The Fighting Sam Ponders are moving up in the world! Good for them.
Rashad Jennings isn't doing so bad either but I couldn't be happier to have this beautiful lady associated with my school.
I'm hoping only one of the living objects in this picture is fishy.
Nice Red!
Christian Schools have a lot of Money. Although I think that the Tech and PSU alumni are a lot more dedicated.
I know a shitload of people that were never accepte or had money or opportunity to go to big university. They busted their ass to go to a for-profit and/or online university.
Most working fulltime jobs and carrying family responsibilities. They got the degree they could and worked hard for it. Does their degree devalue my degree?
Answer: Hell no
Because no matter what anyone tells you, the value of your education and the degree associated with it is only what you make of it. If you went to VT and have done nothing with it then its as worthless as any degree of any online offering anywhere.
Bravo.
Thanks fern (& others). I feel proud and good about the time, money, work and effort into the Paralegal Certificate I earned online from Boston U. Seriously, makes me wanna consider earning an online degree from Tech.
So which conference are they joining? Someone has to actually want the burgeoning Lynchburg TV market.
That's a much better question than disparaging online education.
I'm sure there are dozens of fans in Charlottesville who need a real football team to root for
One rumor that has circulated a little bit on Flames message boards is that the school will sue to be allowed to move up as an FBS independent, since they have higher game attendance (usually over 20,000 with plans for continued stadium expansion in the future) and better facilities and resources than many schools currently in the FBS. I don't think this is likely, but I've seen it batted around in the past.
As far as TV market goes, the argument is that Liberty has graduates all over the country, especially with their online program and they see themselves as becoming the Evangelical Protestant version of what Notre Dame is to Catholics and BYU is to Mormons.
Next thing you know they'll demand to be considered for the playoffs
So very /s
I'm no expert but my understanding is you can't move up to FBS without an existing invite from a conference. Liberty people really think the NCAA would make an exception for them? They're more delusional than ODU fans who think a P5 bid is just around the corner. I'll have to actually see that happen to believe it could happen.
I propose we allow Liberty into the FBS and we demote LOLUVA back to FCS until they can demonstr.... I mean forever.
Seconded.
That mandatory game attendance will really get after you.
Of more relevance to me, the more teams who claw their way into D-1 that no-one wants to watch play, the more football money will push to separate P-5 from D-1. I expect P5 teams will be prohibited from playing FCS by next contract, with plenty of D-1 cupcakes to schedule, and even more requirements for P5's to play P5's instead of D1 cupcakes.