After a roller-coaster of a ride, here we are, so close to qualification. I have included a CBS article below concerning the game tonight. Here's to hoping the Yanks get the three points tonight and declare we are going to Russia.
The United States men's national team's World Cup qualifying campaign is fully back on track after the dominant 4-0 win over Panama on Friday night, putting the Americans firmly in third place and in great shape to qualify directly to the 2018 World Cup.
In history, 13 points is usually good enough to get the fourth-place spot, which takes the team to a playoff for a place in the World Cup, but it has at times been enough to finish in third.
Here's how things are looking at the moment:
Standings
POS. TEAM W D L GD PTS
1. Mexico* 6 3 0 10 21
2. Costa Rica* 4 4 1 7 16
3. USA 3 3 3 5 12
4. Panama 2 4 3 -2 10
5. Honduras 2 4 3 -7 10
6. T&T 1 0 8 -13 3Clinching scenarios
Win vs. Trinidad and Tobago A victory would automatically clinch a spot at the cup. Simple enough.
Draw vs. Trinidad and Tobago and Panama does not win by eight goals vs. Costa Rica.
Lose vs. Trinidad and Tobago and a Panama loss/draw combined with Honduras loss to Mexico.
Comments
Big thumbs up for starting this.
I'll be flipping back and forth between this game and the Stanley Cup Finals.
Should go without saying that the US need to soundly beat T&T at home, and not get caught looking ahead to Mexico.
Josh Kaufman, a Blacksburg HS grad, with the fantastic National Anthem
Pulisic looks good. got mauled there early. looks like they were trying to send a message. We'll see how the youngster holds up.
Luckily Pulisic is super tough in contrast to his stature. He's a fantastic talent.
Glad to see Johnson in there with him, this is probably the most talent we can field at this time.
FANTASTIC TALENT
(it is trinidad and tobago in america, but still)
Nagbe is looking dangerous. Overall we're being a little wasteful but T&T is parking the bus and hoping to catch us on the break. Gonna take something good or a little luck to break through the wall.
We've had our chances, but overall kind of stale on our part. Trinidad is playing for the draw or hoping for a counter. They've had their chances too. Bradley needs to move, no creation from him whatsoever.
Yeah Bradley and Dempsey are underwhelming given their seniority right now. But we're creating some chances and they've just had the one. Hoping for a breakthrough before the break.
Very sloppy with a few bright moments thus far. T&T keeper is playing very well right now. I know it may be an unpopular opinion but I'd much rather have Dempsey coming off the bench.
Agreed. Obviously Arena knows form better, but I'd rather start Wood and Altidore and have Dempsey come off the bench. Also Bradley coming off the bench because he's being useless at the moment. Dempsey at least has had chances and done a little something.
Agree with the first part, disagree about Bradley, he's gotta start. We've got no other deep lying mids who are anywhere near Bradley.
Agreed. No matter the play, Bradley always has influence on the game. The fact that one yellow concludes in him missing the Mexico game scares me.
I know he isn't available due to injury right now, but Jones is better than Bradley. Plays much tougher and is a better CDM. Bradley doesn't create much and is pretty lazy IMHO.
Agree to disagree. Not even comparable in my book. Jones is an enforcer but creates nothing and can hardly distribute. He's muscle. In addition to these, Bradley is also our best set piece taker from distance.
I mean, he just played the ball into danger. Poor decision there.
Like I said, all of that is just my opinion.
He's having a poor half but it's clearly below his usual caliber.
Not unpopular for me. I think I'd prefer to see Bobby in there the majority of the time.
You want an unpopular opinion?
I can't tell you the last time I have been impressed with the play of Altidore in an international match. I know he's strong to get off the ball, but his shots just haven't been there for someone who should be our big striker. Even worse, he seems to have lost a step the last couple years. I dunno, I may try to use him as a super sub should we move on to the WCF.
Firm disagreement, but I know many people who would agree with you.
That goal had to have impressed you a bit.
Disappointing first half, to say the least.
I don't get the mindset of sitting back to start this game. TT is a team we should be all from the start to the finish. Playing in Denver we should be running them to death but we are being way too passive. And those lapses in defensive positioning should have us down 1 right now.
To be honest, this kind of performance was why I was not at all thrilled to see Arena hired.
I'm not happy that we haven't scored yet, but forcing 6 saves in a half is not bad to be honest. Keeping the faith for now.
Forcing saves is good, but the shots haven't exactly been world beaters. The two Altidore shots were right at the keeper, and you have to make him move.
Anyway, 45 mins to take the lead and keep it.
Also shhhh if Landon hears you criticizing Bruce he won't shut up.
Preach.
via GIPHY
The Kid!!
WUNDERKID DOES IT! PULISIIIIIIIIIC!
God, I love Nagbe. Perfect ball by Yedlin and Wonderkid at the right place at the right time.
Good pressure from Bradley! Brilliant run from the young Nagbe! Brilliant cross from the young Yedlin! Clinical finish from the young Pulisic!
I don't want to overact, but Pulisic might be the best player in the history of U.S. soccer.
Um HELLO??????????? Chris Wondolowski??????????????????????????????????????????????????
PULISIIIIIIIIIC!!!!
via GIPHY
Absolutely beautiful futbol.
God Altidore made that play and Pulisic is SO DAMN GOOD.
Yeah that was a good pass. But man this kid is awesome. I know we've hyped the hell out of kids before (coughEducough) but I think we've seen enough out of Pulisic to say he's the real deal.
Hard to not be incredibly excited about the future of US Soccer with him in the fold. May be our first legitimate superstar in the making, and if that's the case it might be the spark the sport needs in this country to get more of our elite athletes choosing the game.
I think he has that kind of potential, agreed. But we've had players that played at this level in the past such as Brian McBride... but Pulisic has a much higher ceiling. Adu never showed half what Pulisic has already.
maurice edu was over hyped? /s
in all seriousness, it's almost apples and oranges. pulisic is playing for one of the 10 biggest clubs in the world, while adu was thrust into playing for one of the flagship teams of a struggling league. and to the point of elite athletes choosing to play soccer, the issue isn't the youth athletes playing soccer, it's the people developing them
i agree it's exciting times for the US, especially with some of the youth we have coming through, specifically the u20 group
Solution: send our prodigies to Germany
Altidore can be so frustrating at points. He flops at times that he could easily overpower his defender.
yeah, personally i prefer bobby wood. im not sure if he's still coming back from injury or what the deal is but i'd prefer to see wood start against mexico
I think they should both start. Clint from the bench. Unlikely to happen though.
Wood had some of the worst first touches I've seen out of a capped player last game. Consistently. I like the guy as a holding / athletic taking people on forward. But he seems clearly to be working through something that has shaken his confidence.
We only really have Pulisic playing really well in our existing formation. Some good stuff from Nagby, who if he continues to take people on (and beat them) will create space and opportunities on his side. We really need to get more guys playing in concert at a high level. I get the Dempsey criticism but don't sleep on his holding dish to Nagbe on the give and go which created the space for Pulisic to run into. Beautiful play all around, certainly hopeful that this squad can turn it around if not for Mexico hopefully shortly thereafter.
Feel like we have nothing to lose vs Mexico, that our outside backs while capable are gonna get beat and we're gonna need three to win minimum. Were I BA, I'd start Altidore, Wood or Morris, upfront, put Dempsey as forward mid, Bradley back, Pulisic right? mid, Nagby left. Not that it is the ideal situation for our best player but that we don't have a really good right half to cause trouble for the opponent. Can't stick Demps in there but you can slide him back, and Pulisic is really good at right half. Plus Pulisic pinching in and going to goal will create space for Yedlin (right back?) down the outside. JMHO
Bradley is a really good defensive mid. Wish he had stayed at Roma. Don't sleep on Cameron at his position (he played about half last season there at Stoke... looked really good at times, overmatched against the more technical sides imho). Maybe Cameron isn't the distributor he is, but if we had three good ball handlers ahead of him this would be mitigated. Pulisic, a confident Nagbe (he has some Piglet moments, need him to play like Tigger), and one more (not sure we have another). I'd like to see in a friendly Cameron, who played a little stopper tonight switch stopper with Bradley's defensive midfield. I almost feel putting the muscle in front of Bradley might make him feel more adventurous with his distribution, and I really feel nervous with two big guys stopper and sweeper, allthough this is probably a bad idea because Cameron has learned a lot about how to defend in front of goal, even if it was hard lessons. Bradley might not have Cameron's in front of goal instincts.
Wanted to see Cavs extend the series and this game tonight be a more solid defensive performance with 3 or 4 goals. Time to fast forward to football.
Jeff Carlisle of ESPN speculated that Arena might switch up the formation to a 4-2-3-1 against Mexico, with Kellyn Acosta stepping in for Dempsey to provide the squad with a second defensive midfielder next to Bradley.
That would leave Altidore alone up top and the USA has traditionally struggled with a lone striker. But with strong showings from Nagbe & Pulisic in the attacking midfield, it might just work.
We shall see.
Interesting... haven't watched Costa that much but was kinda meh after Venezuela, but he had some flashes against T&T. Seems like a young guy with a good deal of upside, just a little up and down right now. I'd like to see our Stoke city Cameron move up to a second defensive holding mid position. He and Bradley would be interesting. Though I feel as if our flanks will be under continuous assault in that scenario. Nonetheless, would be interesting to see if we could pin and outwork the mexican flankers like Philip Lamm does to many Bayern / German opponents. Certainly Yedlin has the pace and seems in pretty good shape.
Either way I'm hopeful BA rolls the dice on something novel. Just don't see us getting it done with the way we've been playing.
Let me just reiterate a point I've made many times before. I hate soccer on Fox. EPL on NBCSN has spoiled me.
Donovan makes me long for the days of Dickie V during a Duke game.
Sorry, but no, your miserable failed Bundesliga experiment doesn't put you on a level playing field with what Pulisic is doing over there.
Sometimes Donovan makes me wish they'd kick it back to Lalas in the studio.
Yeah. That's how bad he can be.
Honestly I don't mind Lalas but as someone who grew up watching the World Cup Ian darke is by far my favorite commentator
I'm watching Mexico-Honduras now and it's not fair. They get the fun but idiotic Mexican guy and Cobi Jones. 1000x better than what we listened to.
I missed the US game but I agree the NBC sports coverage is top stuff usually I'm having withdrawals not getting to wake up to EPL games every weekend
Great second half from the squad. Hoping this momentum can continue to Azteca on Sunday.
On to Mexico.
i wanna see more Bobby wood. Altidore is just not getting it done.
that 2nd goal was Jozy at his best. I love when he plays with his back to the goal and has runners. I think Wood is going to be Dempsey's replacement as Altidore's striking partner as we move forward.
So I can't find the official numbers yet but I'm pretty sure Altidore had at least 3 shots on target, probably more, plus a beautiful dummy run and assist for the 2nd goal. To me that's a fairly good outing for a forward against a park the bus squad. You'd like to see him place his shots a little better but he's at least giving us opportunities going forward, which is not something to take for granted in US Soccer.
Sounds right. It was a fairly typical outing by Altidore. Yeah, he had 2-3 shots on target, but the ones I can remember were pretty easy saves. The strike from the top of the box was right at the keeper's chest, and the header off the corner was hit pretty weakly, once again, right at the keeper. He seemed a step slow when the ball got to him in space, and there was at least one time he went down way too easy in the box when he has shown he's stronger than that.
He had a good pass to set up the 2nd Pulisic goal, which was nice to see, but something just seems off about his game, and to me, its felt like that for a while. He has his moments, but for the most part, he's a frustrating player to watch.
We simply have nobody else in the ranks who can play with their back to the goal. Wood is not that player, nor are Morris or Dempsey.
I think Pulisic could be that guy, but why would you want to put him there? He's much better in his current position where he can help set the plays up and still be around to finish when needed. Yeah, he's getting the goals, but I'm far more impressed with his ability to set up his teammates for chances. He has no less than 4 key passes per game that I just don't think I've ever seen a US player be able to make.
Eh, his strengths are in running at a defense, not facing away or aerial.
As a related note, I just read that Jozy didn't receive a single pass from Dempsey yesterday, which is not okay. Right there is a big reason Jozy didn't have a lot of pristine chances. I have to say it's one of the worst performances I've seen from Clint in a long time. That doesn't mean he's without use, but we'll need much better going forward from that deeper-lying striker position.
Yedlin is great building up from the right. Nagbe is our best midfielder and the only one who can consistently dribble out of trouble and create his own space, every game he doesn't start is a mistake. Pulisic is truly special. His class and creativity are evident and we've never had a true wonderkid like this before.
Mexico is the real test. Overall, I think we still have too many weak spots on this team to be confident at all, but anything can happen in one match.
Pulisic said we will win sunday. That's all I need.
G O L D E N B O Y
O
TL;DR.
T&T looked dangerous and we looked lethargic save for the two goals in the second half. We can chalk it up to altitude sure, but we need to play with more energy.
As in football, a good consistent team will "put away" lesser teams.
if altitude is a problem now, they are screwed on sunday
I'm hoping all of Trumps dealings with Putin gets us a locked down in a easy Group for once and not one of Death as it's been for 12 years. Then onto at least a semi-final appearance at the WC.
I see what you were going for...but there aren't enough /s in the world to save that comment.
Are you kidding me?!!! There has NEVER been corruption in world football and never will be!!!
Not doing your ratio a lot of favors there, brah
I'm hoping FIFA gives pulisic an upgrade so I can buy an American wonder kid in career mode
Alright FAM, the boys are in Mexico tonight. I am praying that Bruce doesn't park the bus for a draw. I understand the away point would be valuable, but that's not what I want to see. We should be able to hang with Mexico.
Edit: Welp looks like that's exactly what we're doing.
Rumors are about 6 changes in the starting lineup with Wood being the only striker along with ole faithful (DeMarcus Beasley) starting in the back.
Guzan in goal? Really?...
Full lineup:
edit: The more I look at this, the worse it gets. That's just so so bad. Any hope at even a point tonight goes down the drain.
edit 2: I stand corrected. Huge point for the U.S.
WTF? This feels like the "they played hard in practice so I'll give them some minutes" line up.
Only 3 holdovers. Woah.
I actually don't mind this lineup with TWO MAJOR EXCEPTIONS. Beasley over Johnson and Guzan over Howard. I love the formation. Arriola and Gonzalez play in Mexico. Wood is speed to hit on the counter. Beasley has historically played very very well against Mexico, but Guzan has been horrible this season. Howard was class the other night.
Klinsmann would be crucified for this. Let's see how Arena fares if it fails. Got the tactics all wrong from the start the other night against T&T. A better side would have beaten us.
He was a panic hire, Gulati needs to go but winning the 2026 bid will give him another 4 years which means we'll continue with horrible tactics and underperformances.
Was not a panic hire. Arena is a good manager and know how to get through CONCACAF qualifying. That's the job at hand. It was not time for another unknown. Do I think he's the right man to be on the touchline in Russia--NO, but he's an experience national team manager who knows what's what in CONCACAF. You've seen that in his three qualifiers. 7 points. Protected home. Looking forward to getting the final 6 points from home and nick 4 between Honduras and Trinidad away. That's 17 points. That's us in Russia.
A point today is not expected. It would be great, but not many teams in the world (Germany, Brazil, Chile, ect) would be expected to go into Azteca and get a win. It just doesn't happen. Bruce is smart. He has a very low ceiling. 2002 was a long long long time ago, but he'll get us through CONCACAF.
Also not a fan of putting in Gonzalez for Brooks. Keep the CB pair the same unless absolutely necessary.
Brooks on a yellow card and Gonzalez plays domestically in Mexico and plays well. Don't mind it. While Mexico is at hand, gotta think towards Costa Rica. That is a must win. Today...it's nice to get a draw.
That lineup seems to indicate we're playing for a draw tonight. Lotta defensive guys, Wood by himself up top, and our two best wings are on the bench. And then we've got Dr. Evil in goal. Meh.
Michael Bradley just made me go from 6 to 12 with that strike.
Woo boy, what a goal by Bradley!
That was beautiful. Chipped the damn keeper from nearly 40 yards
What a goal. My word.
That was awesome to watch.
So far the officiating has been completely one-sided as expected.
Dirty diving bastards are getting every call. And at least three of them should be arrested for battery.
These refs are incredible...ly one sided. Wtf
This halftime analysis is a mess.
This halftime analysisFS1 is a mess.FTFY
This may be blasphemous, but Pulisic hasn't looked very good so far. Heavy touches have betrayed him tonight, so hopefully he can get some things going in the second half.
El Tri is playing futbol while we are playing kickball.
That was a huge point in the hex for the team. 3rd ever point we've gotten in that stadium in world cup qualifying.
And that my friends is why Bradley needs to be on the field at all times.
Wonderful point to get, surpassed my expectations.
We were lucky to get the point. The only legit chance we had in the second half was that shot by Pulisic. Otherwise Mexico dominated. I'll take it, but it wasn't pretty.
If you expected pretty when going into that stadium, you were bound for disappointment, sorry to say. It does not happen.
I was expecting some semblance of soccer. Why? I don't know, wishful thinking I guess. We got out possessed 74/26. Sheer luck we drew that game.
Not sheer luck. That is SPOT ON tactical football. Beautiful really. Is it pleasing on the eye, no. Is it effective, yes. And to suggest we got outplayed is simply inaccurate. Fair result.
It's not luck, it was clear what the plan for that game was from the announcement of the lineups. And we stuck to it and got a point, which is the 3rd time in history we've milked a point out of that stadium. I'm surprised any USA fan could be less than content with the result honestly.
If anything, somewhat gutted we didn't win that. Thought we were the better side, slightly. Had the better chances.
Trust me, I'm very happy with this result! Getting a point at Azteca is huge. I really didn't have much hope of getting a point going in since 1. it was at Azteca and 2. given how we started play against T&T. Like I said, great point.
HOWEVER...we got out-possessed 74-26. 3/4 of possession went to Mexico. I know that that was "the tactic going in", but we really should be able to do better and play better soccer than that. Not to mention the fact that Mexico had several key players out tonight (Rafa Marquez, Guardado, Corona) that helped us a good bit. Not impressed with play, happy we got the point.
Short term, Bruce will more than likely get us to Russia. But what about beyond that? We can't maintain this style of play and expect to progress. Yeah we'll get exposure by qualifying for Russia, but we need to DO something at a WC for the sport to gain much traction here stateside. That's more of where my discontent is coming from. We aren't building for the future. There's no creativity. It's stagnant.
All out defense and counter attack offense.
That has been US Soccer for a very long time, helped built mostly in part to Arenas work in the 90s. This was never ever going to change when he was hired. Getting out possessed is by designed.
Which is why it frustrates me that Gulati hired him back. We get to go right back to square 1.
Hmmmm. I know nothing about soccer, just supporting the US, but it sounds like you're saying we hired the Tony Bennett of soccer? I guess there's at least a counter attack offense as opposed to no offense though....
Yes we gave up possession to them. They did nothing with it. Their best moments are on the counter. They aren't going to play us off the park. Sure, we would have liked a little more possession, but generally you want that to relieve the pressure. Mexico wasn't pressuring us. Not breathing down our necks. They were knocking it side to side. Didn't know what to do with it.
We absolutely can maintain this style and succeed in tournament play. It'll be an uphill climb and painful to watch, but Portugal is playing Confederation Cup games this month doing it. Rather win ugly than lose pretty. I agree that Arena is very structured and free flowing football is not his style, but I do think he is smart enough to change the lineup. He's figured out how to get the most out of Pulisic, Bradley and Nagbe. Acosta has excelled in his short time with him. Defensively we've been pretty solid. Biggest question marks for me is how is he going to use Fabian Johnson and what is he going to get out of our strikers. That's what I'm looking at. If he can't figure those things out, we'll have to keep winning ugly
problem is that style of play will come back to haunt you. siege mentality doesnt consistently win and thats why youre seeing a transition to possession and high pressing styles, its easier to impose your will on your opponent and create more chances.
until we build from the ground up with that kind of message were never going to be regular contenders. Bruce arena wasnt just a backwards step but a leap that smelled of almost as much desperation as coach timecops massive contract. Gulati has got to go
This right here, x10000. Will this style get us through the hex? Yes. Will we be able to contend on a national scale? No. Your take on Gulati/Arena is spot on. I would honestly rather see us go through a few years of downtime while learning to play possession/high press soccer, and then reap the benefits down the road. This will do nothing for our development.
EDIT: Well. This is after I had my coffee too, so I really don't have an excuse...shit. Time to day drink in class...just gonna leave the mistake up there so everyone can have a Monday laugh.
You want us to beat ourselves?
This reminded me of a comment thread on askreddit.
Okay, with that I fully agree. Not a fan of Arena going forward. His style can work for Concacaf, it has been proven to fail past that. I don't think any manager would have produced a pretty game in Azteca though, so looking at this game in a vacuum I'm not upset.
Azteca is just a different beast altogether.
I think this discussion actually gets to the heart of the problem with US Soccer, to an extent. As a country, we like to be the flashy, showmen who flaunt how good we are to everyone else. Its just our national mindset, so to see our National team coached to be a batten down the hatches defensive team that can only get success through counters, it doesn't sit well because our nature is to be the ones on the attack. We glorify those kinds of players in sports (LeBron, Jordan, Vick, Newton, Crosby, Ovechkin, Messi, Ronaldo, Barry Bonds, David Ortiz, etc) so to see a national team of a nation that glorifies the abilities of an individual to take over actively design a system that effectively prohibits that from happening....
Just qualify for 2018, that's all that matters right now, but I wonder if, long-term, we would be better off going towards more of a possession attack where the primary mode of attack is to have the offense run through Pulisic (assuming he keeps his current trajectory) and his ability to make something out of nothing. See if we can't become a bit of a flashy team, and if that happens, I wonder if you'll see more of our elite talent angle towards soccer rather than some of the other sports as the flashy play becomes more 'sexy' on the national scene.
People need to be patient, but this type of style will likely come quicker than most think. People should go back and watch some of the guys who played on the last two U-20 World Cup teams - a lot of those guys have grown up watching the elite soccer teams across the world and aspire to play like them. The technical ability of the younger US players is improving rapidly.
Playing out of the back will be much more viable in the years to come, since guys like Matt Miazga, Cameron Carter-Vickers, and Erik Palmer-Brown have already shown to be capable of doing so as central defenders. Two midfielders who played on that 2015 U-20 World Cup team had solid showings against Mexico last night - Kellyn Acosta & Paul Arriola.
Young US players are increasingly getting looks from abroad for their skills. Josh Sargent (who just won the Silver Boot at the 2017 U-20 World Cup) is getting inquiries from European teams at the age of 17. The future is bright, and it's not too far away.
I try to not put any stock into the U-20 results until these players actually start producing against top talent. The thing about those U-20 rosters is that they're playing against many nation's B-rated players, because the really elite U-20s are currently working with and rotating into the national teams. Now, obviously, its absolutely awesome that our players have had success at this level, but you have to take it with a large grain of salt. Its like being a dominant player in the MLS. Really doesn't mean much in the big picture.
strongly disagree here, a lot of the really good nations have great youth teams because the youth cant beat out their starting lineup (see spain, france, and germany in recent years)
You just threw in the names of three of the most competitive teams in modern soccer that have won 3 of the last 5 World Cups. I agree that the top end teams may have some above and beyond talent on their U20 sides, but by and large, I agree with Alum.
i mean i can go on, teams that succeed in U20 tournaments consistently are usually pretty succesful moving forward, outside of nigeria who suited up a bunch of 28 year olds
I think it really varies year to year.
2007 featured an AMAZING young crop of talent in it looking back. (Sanchez, Vidal, Pique, Mata, Cavani, Suarez, Vela, Dos Santos, Chicarito, David Luiz, Willian, Aguero, Di Maria) and those are just a handful of players that have went on to play in the top leagues around the world. Bradley, Altidore, Martin Caceres, Hector Moreno, Begovic, Javi Garcia, Gary Medel, ect). But you look at the final four, two are VERY SOLID (Argentina Chile) two are bang average (Czech Republic, Austria). That's the problem with U20...how do they develop AFTER the tournament. The kids are talented, no doubt about it, but realistically only 3 or 4 are probably going to household names.
Honestly, the 2007 US team was probably the best I've seen. Out of that, Altidore and Bradley are the only ones still in the fold.
I don't think it's just Americans that feel this way about soccer. People don't like watching park the bus and hoofball... they like to see beautiful skill and crisp passing. How many people have you heard claim they're a fan of Stoke or Sunderland because they like the style of play? haha.
I think your long-term proposal is what we tried to bring Jurgen in to do, but while he made some strides he could never figure out what he wanted to do with the talent he had available, and it put us in this hole that we needed someone with Concacaf know-how to dig us out of, which is a super unfortunate situation.
I'm just curious who we're playing in our starting XI that's gonna employ this tiki-taka, possession based style of play everyone here wants to see? It's easy to put that lineup in to FIFA and play possession. Reality is though, technically we are a far way off from being able to play like this.
Facts: We've held higher possession in 2 of our 6 games. The win over Trinidad last week and.....the 4-0 debacle in Costa Rica--with both of those 55% or less. We just simply aren't going to dominate possession. Our best game of the Hex, we saw less of the ball but put 6 past Honduras.
Yes. In a perfect world, we'd be like Barcelona playing teams off the park. This Mexico game is the outlier. We aren't going to do this against Costa Rica next month. We won't do this when we head to Honduras. We don't do this in the Gold Cup. There was a job to get done. We got it done. That's it. I've seen far worse as terms as parking the bus. We at least wanted to go forward. Obviously, I'm in the minority here, and Bruce's style frustrates me too at times, but at the end of the day, it's getting results. That's what I want. I want to win. I want the Mexicans to be angry we took a point off Azteca. I want to get out the group stages at World Cups.
Yes, we have a bright future. I think we'll start to see a little bit more attractive style, but we're never going to dominate possession. Simply don't have players good enough on the ball to do that.
There's a big chicken and egg debate here.
Do we play that way because we don't have the players to play possession offense, or do we not have the players to play possession offense because they aren't trained to do it? You said it yourself, even against teams like Trinidad and Honduras where we have a clear talent advantage we don't dominate possession, so it leads me to believe a major part of the problem exists from the fundamental strategy implemented by USSF. I'm not saying we wouldn't be able to do it on the level that Spain is able to control play, but we certainly should be able to hold our own against pretty much all of CONCACAF, with us going toe to toe with Mexico. Right now, we're too fundamentally passive to even do that.
Dominating possession isn't indicative of winning matches though. Possession for possessions sake isn't helpful. It's not as simple as saying "we need more possession." It's what you do with that possession that matters. We saw 1/4th of the ball last night. We did more with the ball in that time than Mexico did with the rest of the game. Teams can pass side to side as much as they'd like to. They weren't dangerous in possession. They weren't capable of breaking us down with that final through ball. I'd even argue that Trinidad made better use of their possession against us that Mexico did.
If you want to play a possession style of football, you have to be clinical in the final third. That's NEVER been our forte. We don't have the players to do it. It doesn't suit our players strengths. Hitting on the counter doesn't have to be so negative. You can do it successfully in a 54/46 possession game. Mexico wants to hit on the counter too. They don't want to dominate possession. That's not when they're at their best. Arena won the chess match last night. It wasn't aesthetically pleasing, but job done.
I don't know how you can suggest that we aren't holding our own in CONCACAF and we aren't going toe to tow with Mexico? We've played pretty even with Mexico the last two times. One a draw and the other a late winner from Mexico. Teams are pretty even right now to be honest. The only disappointing result in the Hex is that late winner from Mexico in Columbus. The others have been expected. Not sure where the doom and gloom is coming from. We've topped the CONCACAF group every cycle since 2002. Probably not going to do it this season, but we'll probably be runners up to Mexico. Our three toughest games are out of the way. Our two remaining away games are against 5th and 6th. 12 points is not off the cards.
So what you're saying is..... we will not value time of possession?
Wythevillian, I am in the minority agreement with you.
Tiki-taka soccer is not a reality for the US, nor do I believe the best way forward. I don't mean that to be a criticism of how American soccer players are raised; I just think that we can be (relatively) successful with a counter-attacking, physical forward approach.
I like what we've done with this 3-4-3/5-2-3 formation that puts fast defensive players on the outside to stretch the wings. This puts pressure on the opponents' midfielders to track back and cover areas of the field outside the norm. With that said, I would like to see more activity and a higher press up top defensively from the forwards, something we don't get from Altidore and Dempsey. Bobby Wood is pretty good at this, as well as Pulisic when he's not occupying the traditional center-mid role. I would also like to see a defensive midfield bulldog that gets interceptions and turnovers, a role that Bradley is sometimes good for. A few games during the Gold Cup suggested Nagbe would be perfect for this, but he's since not reproduced those efforts. I believe these things can be taught to up and coming players, if not players currently on the team. It's more of a mindset than specific skill set.
I do like this current defense we have with Gonzalez and Geoff Cameron. I thought they held their own last night. John Brooks, too, could provide a good anchor from which to start the counter attack.
I keep coming back to Leicester's run last year. They were a counter-attacking team with a heavy high press (Vardy/Shinji), wings that pressed hard and made defenses uncomfortable (Mahrez), a strong defensive midfielder (Kante), and a stable defense (Huth, Fuchs). I didn't just name world-class players. These are players that thrived in a simple, reproducible system that rewarded hard work and defensive prowess. The US doesn't have to adjust to their formation, but it's a model of play that could be useful for a team like the US. (Not to mention, Claudio Ranieri is currently unemployed...)
All in all, the question is what we hope to accomplish. Could we realistically win a World Cup? What tactics are we ok with using to regain the top of CONCACAF?
There's a wide gap between tiki-taka and hoof it and hope, which is what Arena plays. Very wide, and we need to settle somewhere inside that gap.
Arena isn't hoof it and hope. We we're set up that way yesterday because it offered the best chance at a result. It worked. Trinidad wasn't hoof and hope. Neither were Honduras and Panama. We are in the middle of Route 1 and Tiki Taka. Sure, we lean a little more direct, but our best player is a #10. Hoof and hopes don't have #10s.
Arena's history is with hoof it and hope, and I won't be surprised when it becomes the norm again. I get that you like him, but that's the way he had us playing in the past. Sure, we have some better technical players now, but I don't think Arena is a tactical genius or anything like that. But I will concede that he has been in this spot before, and he knows how to play the Concacaf fixtures.
Arena's best thing he's got going for him is his brain. He is so pragmatic and understand what his team is. I think a lot of people criticize him for 2006. I personally thought that was the most overrated team the US has ever fielded. No way were we the deserving of our #4 ranking. Now, sure, that team should have gotten out of that group, and Arena has to take some of the blame, especially for coming out against Czech Republic completely and utterly useless in the first half hour. Still, he got the result off Italy and it was all to play for there against Ghana. We'll agree to disagree here.
I mostly agree with you here, the part about the gap. And I think a lot of that gap can be filled with the "Run Fast, Try Hard" soccer that Americans have played during our growth over these past 15-20 years. There are many styles of soccer that can maximize our strengths. Using one-touch passing/carving up defenses through short, quick touches is cool, but is not necessary to win games.
We can be 100% American and build a cogent game plan around a disciplined defense, a keeper who looks to counter, an active defensive midfielder, fast wings, and high-pressing forwards. Those attributes would force turnovers, stretch opponents, and generally make the opposition uncomfortable. It wouldn't necessarily lend itself to 50%+ of possession. Are we doing this right now? No. But I believe it could be an easier system to adopt and would promote our talents more than trying to build another Spain from the ground up.
With that said, losing possession 76/24 or whatever against Mexico wasn't great. Again, it comes back to the gap. To be successful, we need more possession than that, but, as wythevillian said, dominating possession for possession's sake is not a guarantee to victory.
Very much agree here. There is a difference between possession for the sake of possession and quality possession. I'm asking for an increase in quality possession, which I believe we have the skill to be able to accomplish with the players we currently have while still being able to play sound defense. We shouldn't have to dig into our trenches and rely primarily on the counter to be able to score against teams. Even against teams like Mexico, we should be able to methodically set up something nice in the attacking zone. And that doesn't have to be tikki-takka, but it should rely on being able to make smart passes in the attacking zone to set something up. Even against T&T, we had far too many possessions die from a poor pass into traffic, and I believe a big problem with this is that we have a country that relies so much on the trench and counter that we just don't really know how to handle carrying the attack without rushing things for a low percentage shot.
Why is it not a reality? I see no reason why we can't play a more high possession/high press attack.
Of course we can be relatively successful with this style of play. We'll get out of the hex and qualify for the World Cup. But we aren't going to go much beyond the Round of 16 (if we are even able to get out of the group). This style of soccer simply can't sustain endured success. If we want to actually win the WC, we need to upgrade our style of play.
It's not realistic because we're technically shiite on the ball. Prolong periods of possession with a team that isn't technically sound across the pitch leads to gift goals like we saw Mexico give to us last night. Teams will bunker down. Wait for the turnover and pounce. High possession leads to 9 behind the ball, and Pulisic is probably the only player on the team that is technically gifted enough to navigate that. Tight spaces. One touch and move. Play the triangles. Roll off the defend. Delicate chip or through between the back line. Quick, tidy one touch finish. That isn't us. That has never been us. That probably won't be us.
With regards to the success of our team, if anyone thinks we should even be sniffing a World Cup semifinal they're mad. Obviously, tournament football, anything can happen in a knockout round. We damn near smash and grabbed Belgium last time out. We are probably somewhere around the 20th to 15th best team in the world right now. I'd put us in a tier with the secondary South American/European Sides sides (Uruguay, Ecuador, Switzerland, Poland, Portugal, Croatia) and the best of the African/Asian sides (Korea, Japan, Ivory Coast). Whenever we step on the field with those teams, I'd expect a result. That's who we are. We are a team capable of getting out of a group stage, even if it is a "Group of Death." That is our mean. That has since the turn of the century been our historical average. Round of 16 exit. That's what we are. We might not like it, because we are rah rah, colors don't run, sports natioanalism, bald eagles but that's what we are. Favorable draw, or luck/Tim Howard being a robot, gets us a good shot at the quarterfinals.
Yes, it'd be nice to actually head into a World Cup at decent odds and something more than a major longshot. It's not that this STYLE cannot sustain success. Round pegs in square holes don't get you that far. Right "style" and mismanaged teams don't get you that far. Dressing rooms and 23 players buying into a managers message brings success. Talent helps, sure. We will never be the most talented team in the world. Won't happen.
11 Christian Pulisic's aren't running around. He is a once in a generation type of talent. The kid is on his way to becoming a world class player. We've never had one . EVER. Exception to our development and not the rule. He didn't even come out of one of the top academies. Where I agree with yall is the development of kids in the academy. It needs to focus on technically skills over athleticism. That's the problem with youth football. Athleticism rules. You're good at 12 because you are bigger and faster and stronger than the other kids at 12. The kids that make it big (Pulisic) and go on to become super stars are the ones who are more focused on their technical skills early in their development and don't rely on physical ability. You're starting to see that with Jozy. He's always been physically gifted. He's made a career out of it. Starting now to lose a step and his lack of technical ability is really starting to show. Bobby Wood, same thing. Can get in behind a defense, but his touch and finishing lets him down too many times. Yedlin, all the physical aspects and defending you want out of a outside back, while better, his crossing leaves a lot to be desired.
And then you have the problem with some of our best technically gifted players, that could play a tiki taka style, just not be good enough overall. Tim Ream for one. Great with the ball at his feet. I'd prefer opposing players not run at him on a counter attack though. Freddy Adu is another name. Kid had amazing skills. Mentally/physically he wasn't there. So it's a definite balance.
There was a discussion earlier on here about U20s. Technical ability is what separates those guys. A lot of players become names at the U20/U17 world cups, sign deals and flame out because when it comes down to it, the aren't technically savvy enough to cut it with professionals and men not their size. There are brilliant players all across the globe that their touch lets them down too many times and that's why they are League One players and not in the EPL. Big, giant lads, who know how to win a header, but can't link up play well enough to go from the off.
The players coming out of MLS academies are starting to get better. Acosta is going to be a USMNT midfielder for the next 10 years.
TL;DR -- It's not a simple answer and it's much harder to actually do than it is in theory. In theory, I love it. Practically, I don't.
Playing quality possession (I really like this term, it's exactly what I want to see us do) is not that hard to train. We don't need to go the hardcore, tiki-taka rout that Spain/Barca run, but we need to start training and developing players who know how to have QUALITY possession, and what to do with it. Not the "sit on our haunches for 90 minutes and get a draw". Yes that strategy was just for the Mexico game. I get that. But the first half against Trinidad was hot garbage. In all honesty we were fortunate to go into half 0-0. Again, this (possession style) isn't an incredibly hard thing to teach because my high school coach had us playing a dominate possession and high press style attack here in SWVA. You can't tell me that our top players can't learn how to play this style of soccer.
While this is a key component to the "winning" mentality, it isn't going to magically translate to success. The players can buy into Arena's system all they want, but at the end of the day we're always going to fall short because "siege" mentality isn't going to get you very far (talent plays a major role too, obviously. And our talent isn't anywhere near the level of, say, Germany). This basically comes down to getting coaches (someone like Jurgen) into our youth system who can train and teach our kids to be technically proficient.
thing is, spain didnt turn into the dominant team they have over night. they implimented a strategy from the ground up, dealt with sucking for a decade and reaped the benefits of it. I see no reason why we cant do something similar.
I have a problem with parking the bus, but I really dont with smart counter attacking play that catches teams in traps. Essentially what were doing right now is playing in a style that wont be broken down because our opponents dont have anyone talented enough to do it. I have a huge problem with that, id rather take my lumps and impliment a system that works against the big boys than park the bus and pray we get a lucky goal.
Furthermore i think the biggest issue I have is with us scrapping our gameplan every 6 years. we have a coach that impliments a system in klinnsman, sure the dude had his faults particularly gameday managing, but he at least pushed for a style of play, we fire him and go the complete opposite direction, there are unforseen issues with this. what do you think the youth coaches are being told right now? learn more technical soccer? hell no, if arenas is still around for a bit that wont be our style. its half-assing a bunch of ideas when we dont get results immediately
Thank you so much eshiben5. You are 100% correct. I'd build a sustainable, competitive system that makes us competitive with the global giants, even if we suck for a awhile. the organization needs to cultivate a clear system and most importantly stick with it!
Bruce will get us into the WC (maybe) but it is simply not an effective system for getting past concacaf qualifiers in the global stage. You're preaching to the choir, man. Keep it up lol
Bradley's shot that hit the post was closer than Pulisic's that went wide of goal.
Quick stat here: Bradley had both of the USA's shots on target tonight. Mexico only had one.
And more importantly, why he needs to be paired with another central midfielder. Acosta has that spot locked for the forseeable future.
Umm just a casual fan but why is Bruce back again? Are there no other talented coachs available to coach these guys? I just remember the calling for his job the last time and kind of surprised to see him back.
He knows how to get us qualified for the finals, that's really it. I hate the way Bruce-coached teams play, but the result is undeniable, at least until the finals start.
Just feels like a play it safe move with a play it safe coach that coaches pitch and catch mode all game. I know we have some young talent coming up and would like to see some fire on the sidelines.
I 100% agree. I wasn't a big fan of the hire. Buuuut as long as he does what they hired him for and gets us to Russia, I'll go easy on him.
I actually preferred the style Klinsmann tried to implement, but he went bonkers toying with the lineup so much and never settled on anything. That left us trying to play some pretty soccer but with no cohesion. Arena is like the opposite of this. I will say though that I'm glad he's kept bringing in some of our younger, over seas based talent. That was a big worry to me.
As someone who follows the USMNT pretty heavily (even watches some of their youth comps too), I can tell you my opinion on the matter. It was more to do with the timing of JK's firing. We started the hex (this stage of world cup qualifying) with two losses. We had only two january friendlies before our next set of qualifiers. On top of that neither of those friendlies were on official fifa dates, and historically clubs in europe don't release players for these USA friendlies. In fact, that's why those friendlies + the camp leading up to it is usually referred to as camp cupcake, since it's almost always players from our domestic league (MLS), as well as Liga MX players at times.
So if you bring in a talented foreign coach, he won't have any real opportunities to gauge the player pool and figure out who he likes/dislikes, as well as get adjusted to managing concacaf qualifying games which can be an unconventional experience (crappy fields, high elevation at places like Mexico City, etc). You can bring up in up and comer from the MLS who has already some built in familiarity with the pool, but that's always a gamble, and you're putting him in a tough position right off the bat. It's better to bring in a guy who a) is a known commodity, b) has experience and a successful track record in wc qualifying in concacaf, c) already is familiar with at least a chunk of the player pool by coaching in the MLS. So that's why he was brought in. I imagine he'll coach us through the rest of the hex and in the 2018 world cup, and then we'll move on and make a more long term/splashy hire for the 2022 cycle.
Bruce is a very, very, very, very smart coach. Tactics all wrong from the off against Trinidad, adjusted in the second half and saw out what ended up to be a comfortable result. Knew going into camp who his XI was for the Mexico game. Told them on Day 1. Everyone knew their role. Went out to achieve it. Tactics spot on here from the start. I think people underestimate the fresh legs that were out there. My two concerns were Beasley (because he is old AF) and Guzan. Beasley was immense. Typical old man Beasley game. Works his socks off. Very smart player. Guzan did what he needed to do.
End of the day. Fair result I think. Bit unlucky on the Mexico goal that Wood whiffed. Could have easily been 2-0 on that. Should've picked up a foul and yellow somewhere in the midfield to stop it, but things happen. Lot to be desired from Cameron/Acosta letting Vela continue to dribble and not step to him, but that's football.
12 points remain. I wouldn't be surprised to see us get all 12. I think 7 will qualify us directly. Four, with the win coming against Honduas, would probably see us in the playoff. I haven't been worried all campaign. Premature freakout. Vamos!
I think both teams got unlucky and could have easily had a 2nd goal. Overall, we played better than I expected and I am happy with getting a result at the Azteca. That said, I certainly didn't leave thinking we were the better team, despite thinking we could have won, but Mexico could have as well.
edit: had an extra word, and it was bothering me.
Agreed. The way my butt was clenched for the final 10 minutes of the game makes me think we weren't in fact the better team. But that's sports.
I offer this insightful article about Bruce Arena and his tactics coming into these two games: Bruce Arena, plans and the USMNT's 1-1 draw against Mexico
Essentially, Bruce knew that he needed fresh legs for Stadio Azteca, so from the beginning of this most recent camp he made it known his formations and the style of soccer he expected his team to play. The more I read about Bruce, the more I like him. He puts his players in position to get results.
A quote from Gonzalez:
Glad to see TopDrawerSoccer linked here on TKP. Will Parchman is a really unique soccer writer - his style is very descriptive and almost poetic, though sometimes he can be a little too esoteric and over-the-top with it. Still though, he's a smart & insightful writer when it comes to following the game and the guys at that site are some of the best when it comes to following youth national teams and future USMNT contributors.
I would encourage people here to read them more often.
Bingo
Anyone keeping an eye on Panama/Honduras and Costa Rica/Trinidad & Tobago?
Pan/Hon: 1-1 60th minute
CR/T&T: 2-1 CR at the half
We could use a not-win for Pan and CR. Pulling for Honduras and T&T.
Honduras win is definitely good. Would rather Costa Rica win to keep Trinidad from hanging around. Don't think it'll happen, but we just might need a result on Match Day 10 in Trinidad, and would rather them be long gone instead of playing for a playoff place.
EDIT: and as of 70 minutes, I hope the fine TKP folk in this thread don't look at the possession statistic in Panama ;)
In the last 20 minutes of Panama/Honduras:
Honduras went up 2-1
Honduras accrued a few cards for time wasting
A Honduras player got flipped over the signage behind the goal and tried to fight a photographer
Panama scored a 90th minute goal
A Honduras coach got tossed
They played 10 minutes of stoppage time
CONCACAF is the greatest street fight of all.
Mexico - 14
Costa Rica - 11
USA - 8
Panama - 7
Honduras - 5
Trinidad - 3
Match Day 7:
Costa Rica at United States
Honduras at Trinidad
Panama at Mexico
Match Day 8:
United States at Honduras
Trinidad at Panama
Mexico at Costa Rica (Edit: had these swapped)
It's actually possible to clinch a berth in the World Cup after the end of the set of fixtures. Would need to beat both Costa Rica and Honduras (not out of the question, but four points seem more reasonable). Honduras would have to tie Trinidad on MD7 (a win by Honduras wouldn't mathematically clinch, but would be all but with a 10+ GD advantage with 2 games renaming). Would also need Panama to pick up 0 points (unlikely they lose at home to Trinidad).
If that scenario plays out you have something that'll look like this:
Mexico - 17/18/20 (depending on CRC game)
USA - 14
CRC - 11/12/14 (depending on MEX game)
Honduras - 6/8 (depending on TRI game)
Panama - 7
Trinidad - 6/7 (depending on HON game)
How I actually see it playing out:
Mexico - 20
USA - 12
Costa Rica - 11
Panama - 10
Honduras - 6
Trinidad - 4
That would leave a three team race for the final two spots. If the table looks like this, a win at home vs Panama on MD9 would clinch. Otherwise, it's to the island for a nervy finish. Anything less than four points this next set of games might be cause for squeaky bum time come October and possibly November for a playoff.
EDIT:
ABSOLUTELY WORST SCENARIO FOR THE SKY IS FALLING CROWD THAT COULD CONCEIVABLY HAPPEN
--we drop points at home to CRC and lose on the road to Honduras
--Mexico loses both to Panama and Costa Rica
--Honduras and Panama complete the sweep of Trinidad
Costa Rica - 15
Mexico - 14
Panama - 13
Honduras - 11
USA - 9
Trinidad - 3
Would head into the last set of games need at least 4 points to be even in the conversation for a playoff place. That is a doomsday scenario, but it's CONCACAF, anything can happen.
Boy the US looked like dogshit tonight. And so much for Arena being the difference, this team looked completely incompetent. They very much are in Jeopardy of missing the World Cup next year.
That second goal was painful to watch unfold. Some incredibly sloppy passing.
Arena was absolutely outclassed. Also, that's what we get for letting a Stoke player anchor our defense. Also felt like Pulisic and Nagbe ran out of gas really early on. And there was the usual CONCACAF referee performance.
Anyone else think Tim Howard was EXTREMELY at fault for that first goal? I'm not saying this solely because of tonight by any means, it just highlights it... we really need to find our next keeper, and soon.
Credit where it's due though, Navas won that game.
Maybe blame Howard a little but the defense was absolutely atrocious in both goals.
I mean we got outscored 6-0 combined against CR in both WC qualifiers. This mess goes beyond Jurgen and Arena, it goes right to the heart of US Soccer. Our development program is in shambles and is completely and utterly outclassed by countries we have no business being outclassed by. The MLS is an absolute joke of a league to get our best players ready to play internationally. There is no coincidence we have been falling off as all our better players have come back from Europe. And we have leadership all the way up from coach to the top who refused to realize it.
Things could get seriously ugly for US Soccer in the years to come.
I dunno. If Guzan had been the one in goal for that, the flaming would be all over the place right now. My hot take is that Howard has been getting by on the Belgium performance since it happened. Love the guy but we're about to be in a biiig mess there, especially because we still have the typical crap US defense.
True... It's just not good in general.
I can't think of a single US player who has gotten better since they all returned back to the US. The only player this qualifying season who has been worth a damn is Pulisic and we saw tonight how outclassed everyone else is when he isn't playing at top form.
And this is why I absolutely hated the Arena hire, as he rewards players who play in the MLS, rather than honing their skills in Europe. And this will never get better because that is what the federation wants.
Get rid of pay to play.
Klinsi realized talent isn't in MLS. Arena thinks opposite.
Jurgen had everything on the right track.. except game management. Unfortunately. Dude needed to pick some players and stick with it for a while.
And also. Let me reiterate that I do not think Arena is a major improvement in that department either, tonight being a great example. I think the federation made a bad call.
The JK firing was off target. We were competitive against Mex, but lacked bite on the road. I think if we stuck with JK, we would cruise to a strong finish.
That was so so so bad. So many mistakes.
Costa Rica just embarrassed the USA 2-0. Failures from top down.
Why is NJ hosting a qualifier against Costa Rico? Crowd was maybe 50-50.
Bruce didn't have the team ready, got tactics wrong, and waited too long to make changes.
I thought Wood, Altitore (except for stupid yellow) and Bradley (not sure if he was at fault for 2nd goal) played fine. Pulisic and Nagbe had bad games.
All things considered, if Navas and Howard switched teams maybe the score is reversed.
Howard's play in MLS this year has been awful. Guzan's form has been meh. But no Horvath? At all.
Ream? Ugh
Bad spot to be in. Most likely Panama gets the dub against T&T in a few days and we drop to 4th.
Absolutely awful from Cameron tonight we shot ourselves in the foot tonight with awful possession play
Back line was trash. Howard played like he had a JV line in front of him. With Jozy out next game, hope #8 gets the full time nod with #10. Let's see what they can do!!!
Inexcusable performance. Spineless. Gutless. No bite.
I've praised Bruce's tactics before, but tonight he got them all wrong. 3-5-2 for me. Can someone please play Fabian Johnson as a winger. Please. He is wasted as Bruce wants to use him. If you're going to play him narrower, then put him at either left or right back and Villafana or Zusi out of there.
For me, Howard at fault for the first goal. (Should have never happened due to the handling of the ball, but still...). I actually didn't see the second goal as I was working, but referee was very, very suspect. Stonewall penalty on Jozy in the first half. It's a red card too. Totally changes the game. Had the game been in Costa Rica, I can see that being waved off. Not on US soil. That's a call you have to make. Make no mistake, the referee isn't the reason we lost. We were outclassed. Out coached. Out played. Out whatever you want to make it. Costa Rica deserved the three points and their all-but punched ticket to Russia. Very good side.
I've been clear on this board, that while I don't think Arena should be managing us at the World Cup, he's the man to get us through qualifying. This is where that will prove right or wrong. Can he go to Honduras and get a point. A team we thrashed 6-0 at home. Can he get the boys focused and light a fire in their rear and on track to get a result. It's not a must win, but it's a can't lose. Win and I see us finishing off Panama and being home free with a game to spare. Draw, and we'll need a result in Trinidad.
Nervy times ahead for sure, but we have enough class to win these last three. It's not panic mode, but it might have you checking to see just how good Uzbekistan and Saudi Arabia are.
Gulati and other charlatans must be replaced.
The Chicago "we've made it" "we're so damn good" building(s) must be sold.
The mens team should wear t-shirts until they deserve uniforms.
We need to study national program revamps (Germany, Colombia, etc) to see what we can adopt.
We need fewer international students in the college soccer program... some U.S. kids might actually be late bloomers.
Academy kids need fewer airplane miles more ball touches and we should work like hell to get these kids exposed to foreign scouts. In the meantime having kids who have more skills at younger ages should be a focus.
We should also work like hell to make the MLS a developmental league worth supporting. There are some interesting thing happening. Zusi has transitioned well to defender... KC has helped him cut body fat and develop more explosiveness. We should share best practices MLS and worldwide with these US programs to ensure we are doing all we can with what we have.
I don't know how you adopt hardness, but this program is SOFT. Referees unions are harming the games development by letting too much dirty play happen while simultaneously not putting up with any dissent, effectively doing nothing but making the game crappy and eliminating complainers. Dirty is for adults, kids must learn fundamentals of moving feat defending in groups and playing for one another instead of numero uno.
Could go on and on. Lop off the head of this beast it ain't working.
That was a wildly frustrating game. We need 3 points Tuesday and the Panama game in oct(?) just became crucially important
Oh man we're gonna miss the WC. Hooray.
God this is pathetic. We're legitimately not going to make it, I hope this brings some real changes
I think Bob Bradley is next in line.
The worst part is that wouldn't shock me at all
The USSF is too busy destroying any possible competition to the MLS than caring about any long term plans of the national team in general.
Do you actually watch MLS? Legit question.
When I can. My statement was more in regards to the USSF torpedoing the NASL yesterday with their refusal to officially sanction it as a US League for next season. They've basically forced the issue that soccer in the US has only 2 tiers, MLS and USL, and all the others are SOL.
Ah, the NASL. The league that has nearly spent itself out of existence a couple times in the last few years, yet still sanctioned by the USSF when it needed a lifeline... that's the type of league the USSF should be propping up?
It feels like I'm about to get entrapped into a pro/rel debate haha.
Remember when Bruce Arena was the obvious choice to get us to easily qualify? Yep....
Remember when the problem was all because Jurgen sucked? Yep....
If this keeps up, there needs to be a serious house cleaning throughout the US Soccer Federation. Won't happen, there's too much money in making the MNT shills for the MLS, regardless of result, but that's what should happen.
Jurgen needed to go long before he did. They waited too long, and had to grab a band-aid. To his credit, he went 14 games without a loss...until now. He took a team that Jurgen had playing on a D3 level and made them unbeatable by simply instilling some confidence and a standard system, instead of a new lineup EVERY game. Now with the line-up creep, we aren't winning.
If we happen to miss the WC, which looks like a possibility, a full cleansing would be good. And even IF we do make it, the day after we get knocked out, that should still be the course of action.
I just was able to get a stream. I hate everything about the CONCACAF. Playing these Central American teams is awful. The refs suck and these games are either all diving or all fouls. And unless we play in Mexico, Canada, Costa Rica, or the US, the field conditions are awful.
We also suck, too.
Bobby Wood with a late ugly equalizer to breathe some life back into the WC bid. Game ends in a 1-1 tie. At this point, the team really needs to win out to feel at all comfortable with their chances.
After I looked at it more closely, we still have a pretty good shot. Ignoring for a second that we've played like garbage recently, our remaining two games are against the bottom two in the hex, while Honduras (the team tied with us on points for 3rd and qualification without a playoff) has Mexico and Costa Rica.
Not going to say we'll make it, but even with our current... issues... we'd still have to really screw the pooch.
The bid has never been on life support. For me, there has never been a question as to if we're going to qualify. Tonight was a good result. Bruce has had one bad result, the loss on Friday. He was way too cautious at home and tactically didn't adjust quick enough. He admitted he was out coached. Give him that. Tonight, he had to make wholesale changes due to weather conditions and fitness. They worked. We got the point we needed. Automatic qualification is still in our hands.
I feel like CONCACAF is pretty universally disrespected on this board. Away games are no joke. I'd like to see European sides go to San Pedro Sula in the middle of the day and get a win. Most couldn't to be honest. I'm obviously in the majority here and not in total freak out mode. We're fine. We will be fine. We're going to qualify and probably do so automatically.
I agree with you on the fact that most people on this board take CONCACAF far too lightly.
I'm also in agreement that Bruce has been mostly good for the USMNT this time around yet was tactically poor against Costa Rica. That said, I think you're giving him a pass for this one against Honduras.
Bruce has been down to Honduras before, knows about the oppressive heat and they keep the grass long, so he should have put a lineup out there that made a little more sense. Given how ineffective Nagbe was against Costa Rica, and add in the fact that his dribble penetration game makes less sense on a Honduran field that reduces his effectiveness, I would have started Arriola on the right wing instead and pushed Pulisic over to the left side. If you're going to stick with Zusi at RB, Bruce should have started a speedy winger who can cover some of his defensive liabilities. I though Arriola made a difference when he came in, along with the other substitutions.
Not a great performance from the USMNT, and Omar hasn't covered himself in glory in his appearances under Bruce.
I think that's a fair point regarding Nagbe. Arriola has looked good in his qualifying appearances and has a decent run with DC United since his transfer.
Honduras were dead at the end of the game. Don't forget Gonzalez made some crucial 1v1 tackles late in that game to keep it at 1-0. We'll all remember the give away, but he redeemed himself a bit there at the end. End of day, good point. Never expect to win road games in CONCACAF. We're in a dicey situation because we haven't held serve at home. That's the only difference.
Panama is a must win now. Win and we're smoothing sailing. One thing to keep in mind is that Costa Rica still hasn't qualified. They'll have to field their strongest team against Honduras at home. I don't think there would have been any funny business, but regardless, good to know.
A point is a point but wow, it's awful. The thing that frustrates me more is that just as soccer is growing more and more prominent, we might not even qualify for the world cup, which brings so many people together.
Guess we have forgotten how to defend I'm not gonna blame the field, awful refs or side stuff the players out there got out worked AGAIN and honestly didn't show enough urgency or desire/pride in the way Honduras did pretty dissatisfied at where we are considering the hex we're in
This team is atrocious. Even if they still somehow qualify (I'm still not sold, percentages be damned), they ain't winning any games in the group stages. Bruce Arena (who never should have been hired) and Sunil Gulati's heads should roll
Normally, saying a game is a must-win is something that is dripping with hyperbole, but today isn't that day. The US must win tonight. It must get all 3 points to feel comfortable about their World Cup chances. Anything less, and they're all but destined for a best case scenario play-in-game. Win tonight, and they're in the driver's seat for the 3rd seed.
With that said, as much as I really do want the US to qualify, there is a part of me that wouldn't necessarily mind them coming up short. The USSF desperately needs a wakeup call that serious fundamental changes need to be made, and I'm not sure this will happen with anything short of missing out, and my fear is that, even if they make it in by the skin of their teeth, they'll still chalk it up to a victory and pat themselves on the back for a job well done.
I can see where its not a must-win. We need Costa Rica to win or draw Honduras.
Say we draw tonight and Costa Rica wins. We're firmly in the 4 spot with only Trinidad and Tobago left. Panama still has Costa Rica left, and a draw or loss would put them in jeopardy
Or we could just win out and make it in the 3 spot.
I am also really torn, because the USSF really does need to get their shit together, but I also really want to care about the World Cup besides just watching good footy.
My god, this is a carbon copy of my feelings about Arsenal in March this year. You'd think it works that way but they sure as hell proved me wrong.
The FA Cup is both a blessing and a curse
I don't see how the "wakeup call" of missing the World Cup would in any way be better for the growth of soccer in the US than making the World Cup. I see missing the World Cup as a negative on every count.
Am I happy where the senior team is now? Not at all, but I think that's mostly on the players themselves.
Am I happy with where US Soccer as a whole is now? Reasonably so, actually. Our domestic league is wrapping up its most fun season yet, loaded with international talent in their prime and young Americans playing well.
Making the World Cup means that we build the fanbase and inspire the players of the future. Missing the World Cup means nothing but disappointment.
yeah but we got dax mccarty, graham zusi, and gyasi zardes so dont sweat
Sorry, anybody who thinks missing the World Cup would be good for soccer in the USA is just off their rocker. It's a myopic viewpoint without any perspective of how damaging it would be for the long-term growth of the sport's popularity.
For example, after watching the USMNT in the 2014 World Cup, I got into watching MLS & following DC United. Now just over 3 years later, I'm much more well-versed in the game than I was when I started watching that World Cup team.
Point being, if the USMNT isn't there in 2018, we lose a major opportunity to create new fans of the sport, just like me in 2014.
i love you. WC 1994 when i turned 8 was it for me. The itch starts somewhere, but you are right. The game has made huge strides in the US, especially the last 7 years. the women winning the World Cup, and our performance in Brazil has really stoked a bit of the fire. Not only do we need the world cup every 4 years, but we SHOULD be in it every 4 years. We are one of the best teams globally and in our continent. Our position right now is atrociously underperforming, and we as fans have that right to be at the grandest tournament in sports, every 4 years.
eeeeasy tiger I wouldnt say we're in the upper echelon of teams right now, beating the tar out of Jamaica is a totally different ball game from playing Europe. Outside of Portugal I cant remember the last time I sat back and thought about how we dominated a traditional European power.
We are in the upper echelon in almost the same way Virginia Tech is in the upper echelon of teams. We're not at the top, but we're fairly consistently in the top 15-20.
2015: 4-3 against the Netherlands followed by 2-1 against Germany.
And I'll never forget 2009, ending Spain's 35 game unbeaten streak 2-0.
Also, we've made the tournament every time since 1990. We've made 4 of the last 6 rounds of 16.
We have to earn it every time, but we as fans should expect that this team makes it to the World Cup and out of our group.
the win against germany was primarily their backups and the Dutch are a mess right now. I mean when is the last time we've imposed our will on a team the way we do in CONCACAAF, we're not on the same field i think we're more at NC States level, occasionally make a decent run at things, but lets be real theres not a chance in hell we're a world cup contender right now
I think that's a fair assessment. And I absolutely agree that there's no chance in hell. We've got way too many holes as a team right now.
And really, Portugal is just Ronaldo and his 10 merry men.
It says something about how tough Europe is when in the span of 8 years the Netherlands has gone from losing the WC Final 25 minutes into Extra Time in 2010 to effectively eliminated from the 2018 World Cup in the Hex. The US wouldn't stand a chance in European qualifying.
Fuck Ronaldo and Portugal.
Sincerely,
Wales
And also current European champions
That's the thing, missing the World Cup absolutely isn't good for US Soccer, but at the same point, neither is maintaining the status quo. Look, realistically, the US right now is maybe one of the Top 30 national teams on the planet. When you consider the amount of money invested into sports in general in this nation, having a population roughly half that of Europe as a whole its quite frankly unacceptable that we take solace in only making it to the world cup. We have the resources, elite athletic skill, and population talent pool to not just perform well in international soccer but to be a legitimate international power in the sport. But that'll never change unless those who pull the strings do something to make it better, and I really just don't see that happening unless we absolutely bungle things so bad there is no choice but to do it.
I think America certainly has the capacity to field a unit that can compete with the best in the world... If it really wants to. But that's just the problem, isn't it? Culturally, America plainly doesn't care about soccer. If it truly did, the USA would be among the best. (impressively, America dominates just about everything it cares about) Unfortunately, I don't see it happening any time soon.
There just isn't the infrastructure for the sport to flourish. There is no style, no system, no grooming. Sure the sport is growing in popularity among kids but there is no method to the coaching. Fundamentally, there is no structure, no identity. And until that changes we can expect the USMNT to continue under performing.
And as long as America continues to not really care about soccer there will be no effort to construct the system required to develop a team that can compete internationally.
The biggest headache, probably, is that the situation presently is such a mess that actually putting a proper system in place will be a monumental task which would take a long time and lots of resources. Those are two huge roadblocks for our "instant gratification" culture and an economy which likely won't support the financial requirements to compete with the best.
So, in essence, I don't think the US will ever field a top tier soccer team but I sure as hell believe we could if we really wanted to.
Okay, I'll take the hit, but some feedback would be nice. To whomever down voted me, do you care to elaborate on the point you found offensive so I can take care not to ruffle your feathers in the future?
I offset it, because I think you're right, and because I think downvoting opinions is dumb. See my lengthy post below.
Thanks man, back atcha. I really don't care about the turkey legs anyway (besides, no one is catching VTGM). It is more about the principle. And honestly it could just as easily have been a fat finger down vote while scrolling. I've accidentally down voted a couple comments in my time here.
But if someone really disagrees with me I would love to get their take. I realize that I have kind of a pessimistic outlook on American soccer and if someone out there has a compelling argument to change my perspective I'm all ears.
The gap used to be around 10k, and now its around 7.5k. Give me like 3 more years and I've got him! That 14 month head start he has is a killer!
Should the day come that you claim the top spot, Rails on me. This whole "having my dream job at VT and doing cool research with awesome students" thing really cuts into my time dicking around on TKP during the day.
I initially downvoted. I've un-done that now. Sorry about that.
I did so because I thought it was a cynical view, I suppose, and because it neglects all of the work that people are putting in to change the system.
I regret my actions and humbly request your forgiveness.
I would love it if I had a compelling argument, and I mostly have hope because of the amount of investment in young players happening in MLS right now. I look at a team like Atlanta with Andrew Carleton (who scored today in the U-17 World Cup!) They built a $51 million training facililty for their youth. There's also several programs (can't find them off the top of my head) being implemented to train our youth coaches around the country right now.
I think there's a lot of work to be done, still, but I think there are a lot of folks working specifically on developing youth right now.
Apology accepted. And thank you for the feedback. I admit that my view is not rosey. I did not mean to take away from the work that is being done. And I'm glad to hear that there is movement on that front.
However, it's a mountain to climb. I'm sure we all agree there. I think our greatest asset is also our greatest hindrance. We have a huge population which is great as a talent pool but extremely difficult to align. To be truly successful the entire nation needs to be on the same page in terms of style, training programs, identity, etc. I think grass roots movements are great but some aspects need to be dictated from the top down.
That's the toughest piece of the puzzle
Completely agree. And there are major structural issues with soccer training in this country. Pay-to-play being the biggest one. I do think that the sport is headed in the right direction in the US though. We have more potential great players coming through the youth ranks now than I can ever remember.
I think the shear size of the country is something that we often forget about as another issue. The two furthest professional soccer teams from each other in England are closer than any professional team is to Blacksburg. So, if your kid's got a lot of talent in, say, Texas, you've got to drive hours just to get your team to practice with a team on his level. If you've never watched this story on Clint Dempsey, I recommend it. (Warning, there are many, many feels here) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACjLeYRjQu4
It's both a caring thing and a training thing. Maybe they're related.
Caring: we don't care about football, I'm not going to go down the 'what if Lebron played soccer thing, but I think it's undeniable that our best athletes play other sports.
Training: I played some reasonably mid level soccer, and I knew some kids that played for real high level soccer, and everything about the training was comically bad, at best. We don't develop seriously enough and at a high enough level until too late in kid's lives. This wastes players physiological prime because they're still getting up to speed technically. Look at United States v. Germany for the latest qualifying squads for those two countries (have to scroll down towards the bottom). The Krauts by and large are early/mid 20s (with some exceptions for notable superstars) while all the Americans by and large are late 20s early 30s. Last night I saw a note on the bottom line that Germany had qualified, while we're still in a dogfight.
Clint Dempsey is 34 is still very much a huge contributor. Wayne Rooney is 31 and retired form international competition because he's old.
We will continue to be poor at evaluating/developing talent because when it comes to ODP (Olympic Development Program) its a pay to play. You have to travel all across the region to tryout and for the most part the team is already picked thanks to a paycheck going from 1 hand to the other.
Absolutely! And that's what I mean. Look at the sports we do care about. And our performance in the Olympics. America has a massive talent pool and soccer just can't tap into it. It's a complex issue but essentially the culture and lack of interest push the best athletes into other sports. That's going to be tough to change. Money talks, and right now there just isn't enough interest in soccer to drive salaries for coaches and players. If nobody is watching there is no ad revenue. Without money the sport can't get off the ground. That was what I meant by our economy not supporting the sport. Money goes where the interests are. There is no investment in the future. It's all about turning a quick buck, jumping on the cash cow. Right now that cash cow is American football. Basketball and baseball are playing second and third fiddle to that cow but soccer isn't even on the farm.
Step 1 needs to be to encourage all our best players to play at the highest levels of the game, and those levels are either in Europe or South America. Encourage those players to play over there, broadcast the hell out of their games over here, and hope they become good enough to start commanding those insanely high value contracts. Once people start to realize there is legitimate money to be made in the game, it should encourage more serious growth of US soccer from the ground up, where you see more of our elite athletes turn toward soccer in lieu of football or basketball, and then you will have something to work with.
What won't work is setting up a pro league where salaries and team structure is organized at the league headquarters level like we have with MLS. And the league needs to take a very serious look into the possibilities of relegation. Not because its what Europe does, but it encourages the teams and players to constantly get better, and it actively damages those who try and rest on their laurels.
Therin lies yet another problem. Geography. It's nearly impossible for most Americans to travel out of the country. The expense is insane and the work-a-holic culture with very little leave time makes trips out of the country less appealing and less frequent. It's a hard sell to the families of talented athletes to send their kids overseas.
It's also against FIFA rules to move before your 18th birthday to play for a team in another country. Pulisic could do it because he had a European passport.
There are lots of ways to get around it.
Granted, that last one is the only one we're talking about here in our case, and it'd be so shady if a ton of American families with soccer prodigies started to up and move to Europe with reasons "not linked to football". But FIFA and shady go hand in hand.
Hahaha. Fair enough! "FIFA rules" is quite an oxymoron.
You can get international clearance. If you move before you are 10, it's very simple. After 10, they actually just updated the rules this year to make it a lot easier than it was previously. We had a kid that moved from Jamaica when he was 11. Took 6 months for clearance. (Which also includes the Jamaican soccer fed "releasing" him so he could play U17 soccer in the US.)
Moving from Jamaica to here is different. The European rules are through UEFA which has no power in the US.
I was specifically talking about a FIFA rule, which does apply here.
The rule is Article 19. You can read about it here: http://www.espnfc.com/blog/fifa/243/post/2786732/fifa-transfer-regulatio...
Interesting! I didn't know that they had updated the rules. How did they change them?
From what I understand it's no longer "we need extra blah blah blah and a letter and this and that."
I believe it's closer to the under 10, so they removed the age difference that made it more difficult. I think that's what our manager said. We have a few kids that are in need to play in some of our tournaments. But he takes care of the majority of it.
They came back to us 4 times throughout the process, and each time asked for something additional that wasn't on the checklist. A letter from this person. A letter from someone in Jamaica. A letter from employer. Crazy stuff.
Ok, for clarification, it's not quite what I posted above. Over 18 it's a simple form. The between 10-18 is still tricky and lengthy.
I don't disagree with you that the best players have to play in Europe now. But, for long term success, the success of MLS will drive the success of the national team. Players are not allowed to leave their country for another team before their 18th birthday, so we have to have quality training here. MLS's growth has already raised the level of competition in CONCACAF, which we've seen in qualifying. Better competition will fuel a better national team.
MLS would not financially survive the switch to pro/rel. It won't be a reasonable option for another decade at least. The salary/roster roles have continued to grow as the league has grown more financially capable. It almost went bankrupt just over a decade ago. It's structurally built for stability, but the teams at the top are pulling the league up. Toronto and Atlanta have shown that to be successful in MLS you have to invest in youth and the right kinds of players. The New York Red Bulls traded away their captain last offseason to start an 18 year old who is a future regular starter for the national team. MLS is doing anything but resting on its laurels.
Pay for Play. Why should i be paying $150/season for my 6 yr old to play in the spring or fall? That cost goes up as she gets better. One of the moms for the U-14 girls elite, said she's spent almost 2-grand for just the fall. Her daughter will be getting a schollie, she's very very good, but still, this forces so much talent to seek other sports like basketball and football, where the gratification comes faster, and in the millions. Imagine Kobe Bryant on the 2010 world cup team, a dominating offensive force. He'd be in Europe, hell he played in Italy as a kid. But when he came back to the states, he followed basketball.
Frankly, i don't know where it goes from where we are now. MLS Academies is a start. USL is starting its academy programs for all teams. Chris Durkin just scored this morning for USA U-17 at the U-17 world cup, and he came through the Richmond Kickers Academy. Let's start there, but yes, you still gotta pay to play.
Pay for play has to go.
That's the chicken and egg riddle. The sport needs money, but lack of spectator interest means the only source is from the players. That's not a great incentive to take up the sport. That's the big challenge. How do you get major investment in the sport without driving away the best talent? Roadblock.
I'm not sure there is a lack of spectator interest. Last year Man U vs Leicester brought in 1.083 million viewers in the US and then Liverpool vs Arsenal brought in 1.037 million viewers as well. For comparison NHL playoffs averaged 1.38 million viewers per game.
I think it has more to do with the skill level (big name players), lack of competition (leagues) and overall poor planning. Why doesn't the MLS have a relegation system where the bottom 3 MLS teams go to USL & top 3 teams from USL come to MLS.
US soccer has done NOTHING to help grow the sport and has even frowned upon US players playing overseas when it comes to National Team Squads. They would rather them be comfortable not growing as a player in the MLS than go to a team like Roma, Newcastle, Pumas, and other smaller European teams.
It's not altogether surprising that the EPL (Arguably the best league in the world) draws a good TV crowd from the US. Especially considering how many Americans have close ties to the nations a lot of those players come from. I'd wager, however, that the MLS doesn't pull in nearly the same viewership. And EPL revenue doesn't help the American system anyway. There may not be a lack of viewership in general but there is a lack of viewership of American leagues. That needs to change for the system to grow. Otherwise we remain with a pay to play system. When college soccer starts to command even half the interest as college football we'll know we are headed in a better direction
Here's a quote from this article...Yup!
The most-watched MLS game last weekend (Seattle-Portland with 342,000 viewers on FS1 and FOX Deportes combined) had fewer viewers than the Premier League highlights show Goal Zone on NBCSN that aired on Sunday (345,000 viewers).
Maryland led NCAA men's soccer attendance last year. In an area not far from Columbia which is know as the youth soccer center of America (the region hosts 5 of the top 10 National tournaments) it should. But UMD average 4,000 fans with several top 25 teams visiting last year.
To counter, loluva averaged 1,700 at boys soccer.
Numbers
MLS games on FS1 average ~200k or so, on ESPN networks average ~250-300k. A couple weeks ago, Fox put two games on its over-the-air network and those two games hit 1.35 million combined (they were shown regionally opposite NFL games).
From a personal standpoint, there has never been a more fun time to be an MLS fan. The league is just fun, still got enough flaws to be wacky at times, but there's enough quality that games are just fun to watch.
Also, for the 2nd time this season, Atlanta's about to break the single game attendance record with over 70k coming up on October 22. That's gonna be such a good game.
I touched on this in my post below, but the investment is going to come from professional soccer clubs.
Clubs have a greater incentive to develop young players, since they could potentially make money off a good player. Whether that's through jersey sales, attracting more fans to games, or selling that player for a profit, pro teams are the ones who are going to drive this forward.
There's also some roadblocks to this path, since some legal precedents cut the legs out from pro clubs in America - the current lawsuits dealing with training compensation (with Clint Dempsey & DeAndre Yedlin at the center) are something to watch, as that will open the door to smaller, local clubs being able to do away with pay-to-play.
I'll respond to a couple of points in paragraph two:
Fundamentally, I agree with you, but I'm wondering what you mean when you use the word "infrastructure."
To me, the only way we achieve the adequate infrastructure is to increase in numbers of professional teams. Given how the original NASL flamed out in the mid 80s, there was a decade-long period where high-level professional soccer just didn't exist in the US. We're starting to see a proliferation of professional soccer teams in this country and not just at the MLS level. I would argue that the growth of USL and their proposed expansion to include markets for a third division competition is going to do more to improve the soccer infrastructure of this country than anything the US Soccer Federation could ever accomplish on its own.
Scouting is a monumental task in our country, just given our sheer size. If we can fill in the gaps with professionally run clubs in second or third division markets, they're going to find potential prospects much easier than we could under the current system. These clubs are also going to hire some of the better youth coaches in the system. That's where the development process has to start.
I see some version of this a lot around soccer circles on the internet and I honestly believe that coaching to a system doesn't make much sense in the US. It goes back to the fact that our country is so large & diverse that I think we'd be too often forcing square pegs into round holes. It was pointed on somewhere (I think on the Top Drawer Soccer Podcast) that kids in the midwest play a much different style than kids from California or Texas and a lot of that is due to the weather & ground conditions during the times games are played.
I think at the base level, we should be building much better fundamentals in young players. I also think the youth soccer system in this country is far too focused on playing games & achieving results. There's lots of minutiae in the discussion that I admittedly do not know, but I think a "national team style" is overrated at this point unless you're a small country trying to get the most out of a small talent pool. Right now, the US is going through a huge growth in its player pool and we're seeing a lot more talented teenagers than we've had in the past. A lot of this is due to the slow, steady growth and influence that professional soccer has had in this country in the past 20 years.
There's a lot here but I'll try to answer you. Basically you said what I meant regarding infrastructure. It's tied to my point about having a common style of play (more on that momentarily). The country is large and diverse. That makes it difficult to coordinate and to my knowledge there is not much coordination across the country. There is no infrastructure to enable such coordination.
Now, for style of play. I disagree with you on the style being overrated. Perhaps we have different definitions of style. For me, I don't mean technical skills related to environmental factors which differ across the country. I'm referring more to the offensive and defensive strategies and the alignments used and how to maneuver within certain formations.
I played soccer from age 6 until my sophomore year in high school and nearly every coach I had coached slightly different styles. The incongruity in my training stunted my growth in the mental aspects of the game. Every coach I had at the higher levels thought I fit in a different role and each role was played a bit differently. It tied up my feet at times because I wasn't conditioned to a specific methodology.
It makes it tough for me, especially playing pick up games, because where I think I should be moving to empty space another player expects me to be going somewhere else and if you can't anticipate what your teammates are doing you can't move the ball effectively. Having a common style within a uniform framework is essential to developing chemistry among players. When you're taking the best of the best from teams all over the country they need to be comfortable within the same system. Otherwise you mash together a bunch of talented players who just can't get on the same page.
AKA England.
As an English man, this gives me the sadz
Agree with what you've experienced completely, and how it affects you. My son is one of the top outside mids in our travel showcase program. Can play the ball forward well and support from the top of the box great. His new high school coach this year told him to stand in the circle, wait for the ball, get it, go forward, and shoot. Wut?! He would drop in to pick it up, play a thru-ball for an assist and get pulled because he was out of position. After a couple of these instances, I made him quit. He was frustrated, pissed, and becoming a statute...nothing like the flowing player he is when roaming the sideline. It amazes me how the "home run" mentality creeps into soccer at a young age and never leaves.
To me that really hammers home the point I was trying to make about the importance of having a common style. If you stress different schemes across the country it makes it too difficult to meld that together into a cohesive unit at a national level, imo.
I believe that USA will be a top 10 team in the world once they get a competent manager
Spain
Germany
England
Brazil
Argentina
Belgium
Chile
France
Italy
Uruguay
Even if you assume we would be the best of the CONCACAF, this current roster won't stack up to these nations. And that's before considering countries like Colombia , Croatia, Poland, and Portugal.
Is that in order? Cuz England at 3 just doesn't seem right...
oh god no.... not in any particular order, I was just going off the cuff
Haha okay. Spain and Germany kinda made sense and then England threw me. After posting I looked back at it and seeing Italy and France so low led me to believe it was all outta whack
France is absolutely freaking loaded nowadays. Gotta be my favorites for the next World Cup finals.
France in 2018 is going to be what everyone expected Belgium in 2018 to be.
Except with a meaty French forehead. See avatar for details.
Well of course there wouldn't be any meaty French foreheads on the Belgian team...
Noticed you omitted Mexico, S. Korea, Japan and China.
USA has beaten them before they just need a manager who doesn't play for draws
Panama showed you tonight why teams play for draws. They came out to win the game. Huge risk. Terrible decision. They shut up shop, don't allow the game to get stretched, who knows what's happen given how susceptible we looked on the break.
It's what we did in Mexico. That result is gonna get us qualified. We don't have the luxury to play teams off the park like Germany, Brazil, Spain, ect. We have to be tactical and tonight Panama was suicidal with their tactics.
But draws get less points then wins USA played to win tonight and they got the job done tonight
But draws also prevent your opponents from getting maximum points. We'll agree to disagree here, but draws are very valuable in qualifying, especially against the teams surrounding you in the table.
So, what you're saying is... you don't play to win the game?
You talking bout the England that got knocked out of the Euros by Iceland? Also, you didn't even mention the best team on that island.
Cymru am byth
At least England qualified.
The fucking 4 letter is shilling the app in the WCQ pregame. Maybe they should make it fucking work before they go so fucking hard on it.
Honestly the last couple weeks the Android app has worked almost flawlessly for me.
However, the browser streaming quality is still shit, and the Xbox app was stuttering for me a bit on Saturday, so it's not quite all rosy yet. Baby steps.
My phone was flawless. My media PC? Completely worthless. I wasn't about to try casting to my TV from the phone, either.
Exactly. The mobile app seems to be better, and they keep pushing the mobile app every damn time you watch anything on the channel, so I'm starting to wonder if they are prioritizing mobile customers over everyone else, which seems absurd to me as the smaller screen offers a much worse viewing experience compared to TVs or PC monitors.
PULISIC, DEAR GOD. ALL CAPS WORTHY.
PSA: PULISIC IS YOUNGER THAN ME AND HE'S BEEN MORE SUCCESSFUL IN THE LAST 10 MINUTES THAN I HAVE BEEN MY ENTIER LIFE
Everyone but Pulisic needs to get off my lawn.
After the first goal last night I'm making the 'he's 19, the fuck are you doing with your life' joke and Mrs. Lwyr goes: holy shit, he's 19? I've heard of him.
So uhh... Pulisic came into this game with God mode enabled, huh
Man, this is the start we needed so badly.
And I love the personnel on the field - Altidore and Wood are both capable at holding up the ball but still have good passing vision, Pulisic central and free to roam, burners on the wings with Nagbe and Arriola, Bradley behind to win back balls, Yedlin and Villafana with speed to overlap and still get back, plus two physical centebacks in Besler and Gonzalez.
Wood brings the wood.
Only way to finish a game like this is Deuce getting the record tonight.
Shame deuce didn't get his goal but damn pulisic looked good tonight given the service in that #10 position he looked lethal running at their back line give him another year of developing he could be better if we get to Russia, THAT being said our defense looked shaky at best it needs fixing badly
My guess is that Brooks and Cameron would be the starting CBs if they were healthy. If you put them in the lineup in place of Besler and Gonzalez with the rest of the starters, I think that's a really good lineup.
Also slotting Fabian Johnson at left back gives us our strongest lineup IMO. Elsewhere he is wasted with Bruce's tactics.
All but qualified now. Only need a draw. Massive goal differential with both Honduras and Panama. While both Mexico and Costa Rica will be qualified on the last day (unless Costa Rica really screws the pooch at home vs Honduras), they'll still be playing for all three points. The new wrinkle in World Cup seeding by FIFA rankings sort of forces their hand. Right now Mexico would be in Pot 2 and Costa Rica in Pot 3. In theory, Pot 2 is better so Mexico will not want to take any chances losing and Costa Rica will want another win to move up the FIFA rankings.
I think we jump all over Trinidad who brought a younger team to camp focusing on development for 2022 and were mathematically eliminated from playoff contention tonight.
Never in doubt for me. Bruce's spell has been highly successful and a result in Trinidad will validate that. Really only one blunder, the match against Costa Rica in Harrison, but other than that it's been what I've expected. He was hired to do the job. Job just about finished. Hope he doesn't stay on through the World Cup, but not sure there are realistic upgrades who'd want the job in November. Hiring someone any later would be a mistake IMO.
Sad, but spot on.
this...did not age well
Well tomorrow's game could definitely get pretty interesting if it keeps raining in Trinidad.
http://www.espnfc.us/united-states/story/3224710/united-states-trains-on...
Just some food for thought for the CONCACAF hating crowd wondering why we aren't wiping the floor with our competition.
CONCACAF Hex Elo Ratings:
Mexico - 15
Costa Rica - 23
United States - 25
Panama - 51
Honduras - 65
T&T - 106
Now let's compare that with Europe.
Group A:
France - 6
Sweden - 20
Netherlands - 16
Bulgaria - 58
Belarus - 83
Luxembourg -141
Group B:
Switzerland - 12
Portugal - 4
Hungary - 61
Faroe Islands - 141
Latvia - 119
Andorra - 187
Group C:
Germany - 1
Northern Ireland - 46
Czechia - 45
Norway - 66
Azerbiajan - 109
San Marino - 205
Group D:
Serbia - 30
Ireland - 27
Wales - 26
Austria - 42
Georgia - 91
Moldova - 125
Group E:
Poland - 17
Denmark - 21
Montenegro - 61
Romania - 43
Armenia - 96
Kazakhstan - 123
Group F:
England - 9
Slovakia - 31
Scotland - 36
Slovenia - 55
Lithuania - 108
Malta - 163
Group G:
Spain - 3
Italy - 7
Albania - 67
Israel - 75
Macedonia - 86
Liechtenstein - 172
Group H:
Belgium - 10
Greece - 48
Bosnia & Herzgovina - 40
Estonia - 83
Cyprus - 102
Gibralter - 183
Group I:
Iceland - 19
Croatia - 18
Ukraine - 34
Turkey - 32
Finland - 69
Kosovo - 118
So with that laid out, our CONCACAF Hex would probably be about the 4th toughest group in Europe qualification this go round. Add onto that, instead of playing in Basel or Cardiff or Copenhagen or Vienna or Belfast against the mid table teams, you're playing in San Pedro Sula and Panama City and on water logged pitches in Trinidad. Not saying that there aren't bad pitches and bad places to play in Europe, but you don't get the 90 degree heat days that we often see in CONCACF. Not making excuses or saying that CONCACAF is better than UEFA by any stretch, I'm just laying out that our Hex is actually pretty challenging and qualifying shouldn't just be a stroll in the park. Obviously, we luxury of finishing third and progressing to the World Cup unlike Europe, but we also weed out some of the lower ranked teams earlier on to make up for that.
so how would this look if Europe weeded out bottom 30 teams earlier and were left with 4 6 team groups where top half of each group automatically qualify?
conversely, what if CONCACAF split into 3 groups of 12, 12 and 11 with USA, Mexico and Costa Rica all in different groups where only the 3 group winners go through and top 2 runners up meet in a playoff for the right to play for the 4th spot against Asiaoff winner? would it be any tougher?
COCACAF is forgiving in the sense that we only have to play in the final 2 rounds and only have to finish in the top half of a 6 team group to qualify, but Europe is pretty forgiving in that they split the top 9 teams up and they never have to play one another.
I think Africa has the least forgiving qualifying (must win a home and home and then must win your group...2nd place is never an option) and CONMEBOL is the most relentless with no easy games.
Africa most definitely has the least forgiving, but the teams aren't nearly as strong. But political strife, travel arrangements, weather conditions are a nightmare.
CONMEBOL is a hell zone and the US would really struggle.
I just compared to Europe because we are more like European teams in style and makeup than CONCACAF/CONMEBOL teams and Bruce made a comment about European hotshots coming to CONCACAF. I think it's an interesting question as to if Serbia or Iceland would top the CONCACAF group like they did their European group if you replaced the US with Serbia/Iceland. And vice versa, would US win that group? I think it's an interesting discussion.
Would be interesting for sure.
Heck, the US travels as much withIN our own country to go from training to games as some of the other countries in Europe do to go OUT of country. Little timezone difference for some of them as well.
But can you really see some of those team playing in this?
Similar capacity to Cassell, and loluva still couldn't sell it out.
They do play in stadiums like that, but are playing amateur sides like Gibralter and San Marino. Not full professional sides like Trinidad
it looks more like this currently...hope the team brought their flippers and water wings
Twitter indicating water is all gone and miraculously the field isn't overly soft, even firm in some places. They must have been working through the night.
it would be a very interesting discussion. I think FIFA rankings in general are really flawed, so pointing to how many UEFA teams are ahead of the US and Costa Rica and even Mexico doesn't mean much to me. But I do think there is something to be said for playing group play (or any games) against the top teams in your federation vs not playing any other teams at all in the top 9 of your federation throughout the entire qualification process.
Just from an entertainment standpoint, I think UEFA would do well to have 2 rounds of qualifying where the 2nd round allows for more matches between top teams.
Alright folks who's in and who's out tonight gonna be fun watching Argentina and co try to qualify personally I can't decide if I think Argentina get in or not
Argentina will have some help getting in tonight. Might not be blatant. Might be really blatant. But I'm sure there will be a way found to get them there.
absolutely id bet money argentina make it, theyre not going to leave messi at home in probably one of his last 2 world cup runs
Soccer newb here.....what does this even mean? How could Argentina be helped tonight?
FIFA is extremely corrupt but also they recognize what is at stake, which is the next world cup missing arguably the best player in the world. Benefits tonight could be as simple as the refs aiding Argentina to a victory all the way to match fixing with other teams that need certain results to make sure Argentina gets in. Should be fun to watch.
Some would argue we could expect some similar help in T&T tonight.
They're not leaving those deep US wallets out if they can help it.
Especially not with the WC coming here in 2026, they want some hype for our national team.
The refs. Soccer, especially in places like South America or Africa, is known for corrupt officiating. Hell, soccer is general is known for being corrupt
I understand that, but to my eye, there are very, very few calls by the ref that have an impact in the game.
The ball is either in the net or it isn't.
That's like saying Danny Coale scored a touchdown to win the Sugar Bowl or he didn't.
Offside calls play a huge role, along with PK calls. Choosing when to card players (Red card means a team is a man down, yellow cards mean a player often times will tone down), so many small calls can impact a game in ways you can't imagine.
Argentina down 1-0 within 40 seconds. Heh.
edit: nvm Messi will be Messi.
And he just did it again.
Wow. The stadium looks about like UVA's spring game, but it still has a few more folks.
L.M.A.O.
WTF.
With the scores right now we would still advance but oh God, this is bad.
Honduras needs to lose, right?
Yes and Panama loss/draw
So we're gonna rely on Mexico and Costa Rica to take care of us and get us into the World Cup?
Seems Legit.
At least we're now two goals in each game from being eliminated. That's good, right?
I would be watching that Mexico game. They don't HAVE to win theirs and they'd love to see us miss the WC.
EDIT: Yyyyyupppp
Yeah, this is all bad. With the huge swings we've seen on the last day of the Hex in the past, (ahem panama) I'm not going to feel okay until both those games are all the way over.
That was the worst half ever of any US national team! Pull the heads out and start playing some soccer!
So we were about a 4 TD favorite over T&T and we are down 17 at half.
Is that about right?
Our defense sucks
Pulisic strikes again! Much better.
These commentators on BeIN are awful.
EDIT: They are idiots. I don't think they have ever watched a soccer game before.
Oh dear god.
This is really bad, right?
if these hold, we're looking at a home and home with australia with everything on the line. If Panama scores one more we're sitting home.
(I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or actually asking)
Thank you. I have no idea what is going on, I was unaware Australia was considered Central America. So confused.
And I can only find this in espanol. And me no habla espanol.
The 4th place finisher in the Hex (CONCACAF) plays a team from Oceania (in this case Australia) for a winner take all spot in the WC. Not optimal. At all.
Concacaf has 3.5 berths in the world cup. Asia has 1.5. To make numbers work, concacaf's 4th place plays Asia's 2nd place team for the berth. If things hold, we end up in 4th and play australia home and home.
ETA:
Thank you. Home and home means we play twice and goal diff wins it?
Yes. if it's tied after the two games, away goals win (team with the most away goals goes through) If it's still tied after away goals, they play overtime, then PKs.
It's not a great deal.
What's happening now is comical
They brought out a stretcher for a guy hit in the head with a soccer ball, and now this crap.
I might actually throw up.
This is what I get for caring
What are you guys so fired up about? Qualifying to definitely not win the World Cup?
I feel like soccer fans have to keep saying "tactics", "fitness", etc because it fills more space to talk about nothing.
Dude. Eff off and don't open the thread if you don't like soccer. It's pretty damned simple.
I feel like I shouldn't get a downvote unless you join The Key Players Club.
Seriously though I made no personal attacks, the US Men's team sucks. Sorry that makes you so angry
That sounds a little personal bud...
That's some uva pompous bullshit.
Whoops.
That's fine. I'm still not sure what exactly I said that was inaccurate, or personal
You're purposefully trying to be a dick.
No I'm as mad as the rest of you.
Seems insane to downvote reality so much, but will save me on my TKP renewal fee, didn't reaiize this was a a US Mens Soccer blog.
Well there's a way to go about it and there's not
You know, you're acting like a C word that is really inappropriate to say, but I'm gonna do it...
You're acting like a Cavalier.
That is an unforgivable remark...
Well then stop acting like a wangrod.
In case you hadn't noticed, this topic has an OT next to it, which means "Off Topic." This means that it relates to something that isn't VT sports. If you don't like it, don't click on it, don't comment on it. Pretty simple stuff. Sorry that Hokie fans that share similar interests in other sports created another thread to discuss said interest. Also, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
via GIPHY
Tough luck buttercup. Until they take away my downvote powers, stupid comments with the intent to get a rise will get 'em. Nice try at gatekeeping though.
And Panama scores
Jesus.
So we're out, right?
Time to buy an Iceland jersey.
And there we go, Costa Rica and Mexico coming through as I thought. Way to go US Soccer. Top down, garbage.
Oh my god Panama scored
Arena had one job. He failed. I'm furious right now. #GoUSSF
I know this isn't popular, but he was dealt a hand. That hand sucked. He made chicken salad for as long as he could, but eventually they reverted back to the style of play that Jurgen set up for them. Which is not good enough to qualify.
Clean house, start young, set it up for the future. Keep the older guys on for training the younger players and utilize the skill set they have. Stop using, abusing, and setting out to pasture.
Clean fucking house, Gulati should resign before he leaves the pitch.
Full time
Officially eliminated
FOX is really regretting picking up the rights to the 2018 World Cup right now.
soooo how do we feel about arena now?
it's still klinnsman's fault!
/s
His comment about "we've had a great year" have come full circle I won't be sad to see him gone
Fire everyone! Horrible effort! So angry.
Fuck.
NO ENERGY, NO TACTICS, SOCCER IS ON THE RISE IN AMERICA AND THIS IS WHAT WE DO...THIS?! GET RID OF EVERYONE EXCEPT PULISIC.
or, get rid of all the players that don't play in a top-flight European league, because the level of competition just isn't there in the MLS.
So embarrassed.
Mother..........
Yeah thanks Arena. Shitty soccer. Embarrassing, absolutely embarrassing.
I can tell if I'm furious or dead inside. How the hell do we dismantle Panama and then lose to T&T 3 days later. *Insert long string of creative expletives here*
At least Ireland still has a shot so i have someone to pull for
What an absolute joke
Remember the Wake Forest loss, that doesn't even compare to how dead I feel right now. Nothing.
It's not like we didn't watch Arena put out these types of performances for years and years, leading to Bob Bradley. We (the royal we) deserve this for making that decision.
i dont fucking understand this hire to this day, it makes absolutely NO SENSE cut the shit with the experience getting through concacaaf, the warning signs have been there day 1 the guy was a tactical dipshit
I'll be rooting for Iceland now
I hope US Soccer is really thinking back on trying to convince our best players to come back and squander their time and talent in the MLS now.
I told people this team was trash. Burn the federation to the ground. Get rid of that useless sack of shit Arena and Gulati
"I believe that we are trash! I believe that we are trash! I believe that we are trash!"
He should've been fired before the press conference
This is the worst day ever. I am sick about this. So pissed. This should not happen.
Terrible performance. The team lacked skill and they lacked desire. There was zero passion in their play.
Pulisic was their best player, but he should have been a young/skilled player that complimented the rest of the team. The rest of the team is garbage. Altidore is your starting forward? Dempsey is past his prime, Bradley is so overrated it isn't even funny, and the rest of the team is just not good.
US Soccer needs to be completely blown up and rebuilt.