Didn't see this here, was wondering if anyone else has run into it.
https://www.change.org/p/president-tim-sands-stop-virginia-tech-from-ind...
I love dogs, but with everything he lost and the jail time he got, though will never truly pay for their lives lost, is definitely more than many others will ever pay for a crime like this. I always believed if you did your time and made s change, then it's time to move on.
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I'm about the biggest dog lover you'll find. That being said, this man did his time. He did more time than some have done for killing people. That and he's made strides since to make things right. He's paid his debt as far as I'm concerned. Leave the man be.
This is my take on the whole situation. People act like he got away with it and did no time and didn't lose an $80 million dollar contract because of this situation. I also wonder how many people, myself included, inaccurately remember how directly involved he was. I know he was the financial backing and ringleader, but was he ever found to be the person directly committing most of the heinous acts in which most people base their protests?
Yes, he was. From Wikipedia: He admitted to being involved in the destruction of 6–8 dogs, by hanging or drowning.
I'm torn by this whole scenario. As a Hokie, I know that Virginia Tech would not have the athletic nor academic prestige it has now, without that 1999 season. Our enrollment increased leaps and bounds, athletic funding jumped, and Virginia Tech as a brand grew nationally and that 1999 season would not have happened without MV7.
Conversely, as a dog lover, trainer, and competitor, the nature and graphic detail of his felony convictions are certainly enough to put the issue of his enshrinement in doubt to me.
If enshrinement was just based on what was done on the field then I don't see how he can be held out. If the "embarrassment clause" in the selection criteria can be extended to his post VT life, then I don't see how he can be let in.
I think this is the heart of the issue. To me, any Hall of Fame is about accomplishments on the field and not about how the participants were as people. Obviously, we want anyone who is enshrined or celebrated to be a model citizen, but that's not how life works.
JoePa would agree with you. I agree with your final conclusion, but not your reasoning. Vick is being honored for the man he was at Virginia Tech. If a player made little noise at VT, but won a super bowl or 2, I'm not sure they'd be in the Hokie HoF.
I'm ok with his induction in the HoF because the dogfighting was the person he became after VT, not who he was while still there.
Fair enough. Without going on a JoePa argument I'd say he should be kept out, not because he was a horrible person, but because he turned a blind eye to keep the program winning and competitive. Which to me is on the same parallel as cheating and certainly impacted the on field production.
I didn't type it out but I completely agree with the idea that he is being inducted to the VT HOF because of what he did at VT and not for what came after.
I can see both sides which I try to do in every situation but I am still on heavily on the side to let him into the SPORTS Hall of Fame.
What he did was awful, cruel and never be forgetten (which it won't) but I believe Mike has paid his time in jail (doing more than most with worse crimes), being publicly scrutinized on tv, and given back to community in terms of money and teaching others about his mistakes. He is actively going around to try and stop dog fighting. Sure, people are going to say he is only doing it because he got caught, but what else do you want from him???? I got got with a DWI back in 2013 because I (like many others) thought I was invisible until they are finally caught. Ever since then, I have been the biggest advocate for DD's, Uber/Lyft, etc to all my friends and family.
People aren't perfect... they make mistakes, big or small, and I believe Mike deserves to be in the VT sports HOF. Maybe off the field wasn't so fine and dandy, but on the field, Mike put VT on the national map, could be argued as the greatest VT football player, and transcended how the QB is played in college football for the most part.
Just my .02
I couldn't help but think of a breathalyzer when I read this. No offense of course.
No offense taken!
It's impossible to please everyone. The same people signing the petitions will be the same people that may be advocates for criminal reintroduction programs.
I truly believe people can change and have witnessed it my self. Mike went his whole life with everyone telling him he was invincible, after awhile you may start to actually believe it.
He did the crime. He did the time. It's important to look out for your own through the good and bad.
I have always felt that he did pay for the crime he did, probably more than a joe average person would have paid. He did do a tremendous amount for the university and for that I am thankful. However, going into the HOF is about the total package and this maistake was too big for the university to reward anyone and put them in the HOF. When there is a felony conviction following you around you just can't ignore it. I am also a dog person that currently has 3 Rotties.
He didn't pay more for the crime. He did his time (like most people who get caught). He lost a lot of money, but that money was earned by the PRIVILEGE that comes by playing in the NFL and the exposure/endorsements that come with it. He didn't "get it worse" because he had more. He lost everything, just like anyone else probably would.
Correct, wrong choice on word.
Is he still the only person to be charged with the federal law? Would he have been the first if he was anyone else?
If Vick can't be rewarded for the type of 180 he has made with his life, then redemption must be impossible. I say this as a dog lover. Also, I think that analyzing the ethics of every inductee's personal life is a very dangerous rabbit hole.
^^^This.
Redemption: Yes
Reward: No
The specific issue aside do these online "petitions" ever actually
do anythinghave any sort of an impact?Does masturbating "do" anything?
I was going to google the health benefits of masturbating but that may be best saved till I get home from work.
Without citing sauces, there have been numerous studies (some with the aim of proving the evils of masturbation) that have linked it to a reduction in the risk of prostate cancer.
If you google it at work I bet you'll get to go home sooner!
They say that it saves you from prostate cancer...
I'm just fighting cancer.
Well I don't have prostate cancer yet so I'd say it's been confirmed!
Uh...you should know that something is happening afterwards...
Masturbating has been proven to save hundreds of thousands of dollars when applied to child prevention tactics.
If President Sands gets 25,000 signatures saying they believe this HOF induction is a stain on VT, then he'd honestly be foolish not to consider the implications.
I have a lot of friends who are veterinarians, and they are royally pissed about this. Since the HOF induction has a character clause, it should be adhered to. If it's not, then (among a lot of people), it's meaningless and it says that your actions don't mean anything and it's all about how good of a player you are. We can get into a debate over what the criteria for HOF induction should be, but that's a moot point.
If VT goes ahead with the induction, they risk alienating a large number of donors (not just from the vet school, like many of my friends). Consider the fact that there are almost 2x as many signatures on this online petition as there are in the Hokie Club right now. Sands and Babcock know that money talks.
Reading through the "signatures" not seeing where the majority are VT Alums or even people in Virginia. Seeing a lot of overseas especially the U.K.
You're not a VT alum or in Virginia, but you're a Hokie Club member and fan of VT, are you not?
I'm not attempting to break down participation in these petitions (and IIRC this is not the only one out there), but among people I know, the vast majority are opposed to Vick's induction. That's likely a function of who most of my friends are and is highly anecdotal/possibly not reflective of reality, but it shouldn't be dismissed.
But I'm an anomaly. I'm saying that yes the petition might look impressive but the numbers don't really show it having a huge long term negative impact from where I'm sitting.
I bet most of those people on that petition are not VT graduates, and don't know anything about the issue.
Are they just people who signed it because someone with a doggie on their Facebook page posted a link?
I'd bet that the wide majority of those people a) don't know anything about Michael Vick, and b) have never donated a dime to Virginia Tech. For many of them, this is about signing a petition against dogfighting, which I bet they don't know much about, either. Vick is also against dogfighting, and gives speeches about this topic for the Humane Society.
I saw the petition being circulated on Facebook. The person who posted it was not a Hokie, was not living in VA, (California) and typically sends out some type of petition a few times a month. I saw it because they tagged the one Hokie they new on it, and looked at their page because I was wondering if they were Hokies too.
I believe this petition was linked on LeSabre. So that's at least, like, 10 signatures that are purely vindictive wahoos.
I see where you're going but the other side of this is that VT fans are obviously extremely biased due to Vick's success at Tech and would be much more willing to forgive him.
I'm inclined to forgive most Hokies who atone for what they've done and seem to have honestly changed.
Perhaps, but I think I (along with many other Tech fans) was more disappointed than most when he was indicted. I was 14 years old at the time and idolized Michael Vick. And I have always loved dogs. I couldn't believe someone I thought so highly of could do such a terrible thing. And I have never defended his actions. As far as I was concerned, he had a lot of work to do to earn my forgiveness. It took a long time, and I had to see him walking the walk, not just talking the talk. Mike Vick has done that and then some. He is one of the best examples of our justice system actually working and rehabilitating a person who had made some awful mistakes. Like I said, I will never defend his dogfighting, but I will vehemently defend him as a person.
Agreed, I think this petition is primarily being endorsed by people as a way to show solidarity against dogfighting, and either don't know, or don't care to know the whole Michael Vick story. The man paid dearly for it, and turned his life around, even as an animal advocate on a national stage. At what point can people finally let it go? I don't think there is any more he can do as payment and remorse for his involvement in dogfighting.
I'm ok with MV7 getting into the hokie HoF, but I don't feel like anyone has to let it go. He committed a crime and paid his dues to get his freedom back (which is all he's entitled to). I hope people see how he's changed and acknowledge it, I would really like that. If someone NEVER forgave him, I think they're entitled to that (considering the severity of his crimes).
I think the issue isn't that there are VT alums outside Virginia, but I would doubt the U.K. has a strong VT alum population. Not doubting some are there but it has the feeling more of, I'm an animal lover that doesn't know anything about Vick beyond dog fighting.
Not one of these online petitions has ever done anything. They are always a complete waste of time and effort. They are worthless. All they do is make the person who started them feel better that they "did something". Even though it was the most pointless thing possible.
1. Change.org needs to just go away; so many stupid petitions on the site that it's neigh impossible to take -any- petition there seriously.
2. If this were Marcus we were talking about, I'd wholeheartedly agree given he continues to show he "doesn't get it." Just last year he was arrested for drug possession charges, just six months after assaulting an officer attempting to arrest him for contempt of court; it's his sixth such incident with the law since 2006 and fourth since 2013.
As for Michael, what he did was horrible, but he did his time and as far as I'm aware has attempted to atone for his sins. To the best of my knowledge, he's had no other legal issues before or since. He's made the most of his second chance, and I say let him in.
It's really humorous that people think they have the right to petition any and everything these days. You have a constitutional right to petition the government, but petitioning various other private individuals, businesses, and organizations has no legal obligation or authority. People these days just love being offended and finding comfort in their own moral high ground over someone/thing else.
I mean. You can still make the petition...it just doesn't have any legal standing.
So then, what's the point of wasting a bunch of time on something that amounts to nothing? The only thing you can hope to do is pressure someone into doing something your cause supports. Also, the Supreme Court has ruled that the right to petition the government doesn't even necessarily require that the government actually abide by or listen to the demands of the petition. So in any case, big to-do about nothing.
My wife makes this same argument when I ask to play golf.
My wife makes the same argument when I log into a message board.
Still laughing at you because you have to ask to play golf.
Page views on change.org. There are tons of organizations that make their livelihood off of outrage, not fixing the problems that spark said outrage. I'm not saying that change.org is necessarily one of them, but my adblocker triggered 15 times when going to this petition so you connect the dots.
Well from a business standpoint of change.org you're right. However the purpose of the petitions is to bring some sort of awareness to your cause or injustice. There have been some legitimate concerns raised by petitions on that website; however this being the internet there are thousands of asinine petitions for each one that has a chance to make a difference.
Somebody should start a petition on change.org to disband change.org. I would definitely sign it.
Always nice to have a use for these:
I would take not being a middle tier power 5 program if it meant we were never associated with him or his brother but I know that is an unpopular opinion around here. He murdered dogs and/or funded people who did it for sport, and personally that is something I could never forgive but to each his or her own...
So every person who hunts for sport should also be wiped from the books? Or is it just certain animals? Deer but not quail? Should the pro-athletes that go on safari and hunt tigers and lions also be banned from any HOFs for their cruelty to animals or is just toward animals that people keep as pets? The issue is not that he committed a felony its that it was tangible to people who treat their pets like kids. By all agreed upon standards of the justice system he balanced his scales and should be treated as such.
Shit I hunt and fish for food so I have no problem with that. But yes people who do it just for "sport" are some that I have an issue with. Especially those rich assholes that have to go after endangered species just to look cool...
I agree with your overall point, and especially the last sentence. However, it's not like Vick ran an illegal dog hunting program or euthanasia clinic. They were torturing the animals to death by electrocuting, body slamming, fighting etc. I think comparing that to hunting is a heck of a jump. In the same way, I have no problem with a Father taking his young kid hunting, albeit while teaching proper safety, etc. The kid that likes to kill the neighborhood cats in various strange and gruesome ways.... yea, that's going to be a problem for me.
Dexter's get made that way
Stop posting abandon thread gifs. You saw the title, you know this is a charged discussion, and it really hasn't been rough so far. Go spam the recruiting thread with gifs so we can get a part 3. Or watch Attack on Titan. We need a few more people to chat with.
Having reasonable discussion about a topic?
via GIPHY
I'm fine with a discussion. I just thought the tone of your post was a little over the top, so I figured I'd counter with a little humor. Carry on.
... but what if I've already posted in both of those threads?
OT - Gold Cup needs your help! Jozy Altidore was bit last night. Wanna blame refs in the off season?
The way I see it is that this award is mostly about sport accomplishments. Vick is arguably the most gifted athlete to ever go through the Virginia Tech football program, and one of the most talented quarterbacks to ever play in the NFL. He had a positive impact on VT's football program, and on all those who followed him. Other talented players like Tyrod Taylor have said they came to VT because of Michael Vick.
If you want to judge character, I think he passes that test as well. He made a huge mistake, and he paid a huge price. He paid society's price for his mistake, and more. He lost a good bit of his NFL career. He went to jail. He suffered humiliation in the media. He's done everything asked of him, and more. He worked hard enough to get back into the NFL, which wasn't easy. He could have given up. He didn't. He had something else to prove.
He has spoken publicly about his mistake and made amends as best he could. He became a messenger for the humane society, and gives speeches against dogfighting, using himself as an example.
Is he someone I want as a role model for children? Oh yeah. Is he someone who belongs in VT's Sports Hall of Fame? Damned right he is.
Is there a petition to get him into the Hall of Fame? If there is, as a graduate of VT and a native Virginian, I'll sign it.
I agree with this a billion percent. In fact, I'm sorely tempted to start up this counter petition myself. And just to add to that, I strongly believe there should be MULTIPLE petitions on MULTIPLE sites that support his induction.
I agree, and I'll sign it too. I do not agree with what he did. It was a classic case of someone thinking he was above the law. However, I do think that the system made an example of him because he was an NFL star. Many people would have felt sorry for themselves, considered themselves victims of the system, and continued down the same dark path. Here's a guy who attempted to make things right and by all accounts has really turned his life around for the better. I was extremely disappointed in him when all of this came to light, but today I am extremely proud of him for turning it around. I do understand the controversy, but I also know that he turned his life around and was hands down the best football player in VT history and one of the best in college football history. I'll also add that he was deprived of winning the Heisman simply due to the fact that it wasn't acceptable for a redshirt freshman to win it. The man deserves to be in the VT HOF.
What he did was wrong, and everybody agrees with that. He has also made the most of his second chance, and I am happy for that. The thing that aggravated me the most was his prison sentence. (Yes he did deserve time) I think they made an example out of him but then a few years later Donte Stallworth hit and killed a pedestrian while intoxicated behind the wheel and got 30 days. I just never understood that and MV7 looks 10x worse.
Thirty days suspended... He never went in Jail. That was the reason why the commissioner suspended him for at least a year.
For everyone's reference here are the specific criteria to be in the VT Sports Hall of Fame:
Out of school for 10 years or more;
Nationally recognized athletic, coaching, or administrative ability;
Must be of good character and reputation/not have been a source of embarrassment to the university in any way; (emphasis added)
Candidate must have graduated/or not, in good standing/with good graces of university officials;
Candidate must receive 6 out of 8 votes of the members of the Hall of Fame selection committee;
The career of the person outside of athletics will not have a bearing on the selection unless that person is otherwise qualified.
Obviously, the statement on character/source of embarrassment is the key phrase here as I don't think we can argue with any of the other statements for MV7. The statement is vague enough that you could argue his atonement, especially his work with PETA and raising aware for treating animals with more care and respect might have improved his reputation. However, his crimes with dog fighting were a huge source of embarrassment for the university.
I was of the opinion that he has put in the time and appears to be a changed and improved person, so I was okay with him being added to the Sports Hall of Fame. But with how the criteria are written, I'm a little surprised he received the necessary 6 votes to be selected.
Welp, this rules out nearly everyone ever.
Rules out Tyrod and anybody else who let JMU walk out of Lane with a victory. \s
Wait, when did...
Oh, the "/s", right.
He was not associated with the university when the crimes occurred. I think he passes the test.
This right here ^^^^.
I don't have a problem with him being inducted. I'm just saying that based on how vague the criterion is, it could be argued that he shouldn't be allowed in. "Not have been a source of embarrassment to the university in any way" does not specify that it has to be while the athlete was at Virginia Tech. The fact that he committed these crimes and having been a high-profile athlete including while at Virginia Tech means you can make the argument that he was a source of embarrassment to the university. That's my point. But, it really is up to the 8 people voting and how they interpret the criteria for induction.
So I guess Homer Hickam should never be associated with Virginia Tech for all that he has done is his professional career. Same with Bruce Smith, Hoda Kotb, Tyrod Taylor. Nor should our seven Medal of Honor recipients, because what they did was not while they were directly associated with VT.
I could not disagree with you more here.
That's a strawman to the argument - those people's actions were all positive both when they were at VT and afterward. The "embarrassment" clause doesn't apply to these people.
The argument is whether or not Vick's dogfighting actions reflect poorly on the University. In my opinion the answer is no because he was not a representative of the University when he committed the crimes. The University did not directly enable him and he did not use University resources in committing the crimes.
If one person's good actions can reflect well on the university another person's poor actions can reflect badly on the university. Mike Vick is arguably our most recognized figure. Everything he does reflects Virginia Tech.
If I go out and participate in a mission trip building bridges in Africa, you better believe my company would use that in marketing. If I go out and get a put in prison, that same company is firing me.
Frank Beamer might argue with you (or at least give you a disappointed look) at not being considered our most recognized figure.
But would Virginia Tech use your actions in marketing and/or punish you in some manner for said good or bad deeds?
fantastic point, I say we should start a petition to keep Homer Hickam, Hoda Kotb, and all seven Medal of Honor recipients from being inducted into the VT Football Hall of Fame.
Bruce Smith and Tyrod Taylor did actually perform well enough on the football team during their time at VT to justify consideration. Unless we find out later that Bruce got a speeding ticket and had to pay the fine for it. Unforgivable...
You are putting words in my mouth. Show me where I said I didn't think Vick should be in the HOF. My point is that you cannot just write off what Vick did by saying, "Well he wasn't a student at the time so he didn't embarrass the university." He represents VT more than just about anyone because of what he did in his time here, no matter where he is in life..
And what Mike Vick did is VERY much different than getting a speeding ticket.
You either believe people can change, or they cannot. If one classifies him/herself as the latter, then there is no point in discussing this.
If one classifies him/herself as the former, and still does not believe that Vick has changed, then I ask that person what more MV7 can do to prove that he has paid his debt to society. Since his release, MV7 has become an activist, has received support from the humane society, and has even lobbied congress to enact tougher laws against dog fighting. What more can he do?
Vick's Virginia Tech Football career was amazing. He has been a great Hokie over the years. I look forward to seeing him in our HoF.
What if we believe that Michael can change, but Marcus cannot?
... and while we're at it, let's get Emma going just to maintain order around here.
Because Michael made an effort to change whereas Marcus has only gone further and further in the wrong direction.
Marcus has been in legal trouble twice in 06, in 08, 09, 13, and twice in 16.
I'm starting to wonder if Marcus needs some serious psychological evaulation. His behavior has weird patterns, almost bipolar. He will do and say the right things for a while and seem to be on a better path, only to completely screw everything up and land himself in trouble again later on. You can look at his Twitter and see the erratic behavior. I hope he can get some help and try to turn his life around. He's digging himself deeper and deeper.
I'm going to regret saying this later. His wonderlic was an 11. I just don't think he ever developed decision making abilities and fell in with the worst crowd possible growing up and never let his mind leave that crowd.
I don't recall Marcus ever joining TKPC.
Because we're 45 days and 8 hours short of kicking it back off with woovoo and we're talking about Marcus, I just want to leave this here.
To quote a certain Colonel after a successful spirit mission: "I do not condone the action, but I wholeheartedly support the spirit in which it was done."
Very well said. I believe that people can and do change, however I also believe that there are some things in life that are damn near unforgivable. I'm not going to go into detail about what those are and I'm sure there's a threshold for everyone on here. The question then becomes, regardless of what he's done since, was the original incident so heinous that there's no coming back from it? In this case based on what I know I think that forgiveness is possible. I'm sure that there are others that feel that that it isn't. Personally I don't know exactly what involvement he had and what actions he carried out and I probably don't care to know. What he did was horrible. But since then I think he feels genuine remorse and has went out of his way to ensure that other people don't follow the same path that he did. I don't think he feels bad that he got caught, I think he is ashamed and taken back by the realization that he let himself do something so bad. To me this garners a lot of respect, but it does not take away what happened. If what happened is unforgiveable in an individuals mind, then I think therin lies the rub.
I disagree, there is nothing that is unforgivable - only people not willing to forgive.
I disagree... if one of my family members (mother, father, sibling, whoever) was intentionally killed by somone(s), then I could 100% never forgive them, not one ounce.
I think you actually proved his point...
yes I guess I did haha... I guess I was getting at that I think something like premeditated murder is something that can't be forgiven
Warrick Dunn forgave his mother's murderer. I don't think I would've been able to do the same, but it just goes to show some people have a huge capacity for forgiveness.
Last I saw was that Warrick Dunn forgave him but in court, Kevan Brumfield never admitted to doing the crime.
True but you get my point. Not many people would forgive Voldemort no matter what he did to make amends.
Edited for you guys.
Wow, only took 104 comments on this hotbutton topic to trigger Godwin's Law...
While we're at it, can we delve into a conversation about morality?
If we're gonna go there, can we discuss the merits of making Lane a family friendly venue?
See this? This right here is why no one floated our names when they discussed replacing the VTGM as mod...
I didn't know Godwin's law was a thing...Too funny!
OMG. HE WHO MUST NOT BE NAMED. DONT PUT THAT HATE ON US.
You dare speak his name!
You're correct. I'll never forgive Weaver for getting rid of Stick It In.
I think it's worth noting that this is not Vick's first year that he was up for induction. It's not like we jumped on putting him in the HOF the first chance we could. We've given him even more time to prove he's turned his life around.
More to lose by inducting him than gaining by inducting him.
Even though I think he has paid for his past sins, a lot of people don't and won't ever.
He had to live in Philadelphia and play for the Eagles
he's done his time
God, I wanna tear you apart for this. But I just can't. It's too true.
Hilarious how many Birds fans refused to root for him while he was on the team. Like somehow that made them better than him.
And secondly, I'm willing to bet far more than half the people who have signed the petition aren't associated with VT, they just see the Vick name and want to spit venom.
Hell, some people just need to see VT to do that. Having Vick in the headline just amplifies it.
Related: never read the Facebook comments on stories posted by local news stations. They're filled with the dregs of humanity.
Again, there's two sides to that.
Those that are most gung-ho about forgiving him are likely VT alumni/fans who would (probably) not be as magnanimous if Vick had played at a rival school for example.
FFS, he's done MORE for animal rights AND awareness both financially and as an ambassador than pretty much ANY of these fuckers complaining about him. More than they'll ever fucking do. End rant.
Probably because the court never ordered them to. How is this an argument? He's likely done a lot more damage than these people will ever do too
His contributions against dog fighting since leaving prison have gone well beyond what was required of him by law. 10 years after being sentence, two years since his last NFL game, and one year after 'officially' retiring, he's still advocating against dog fighting. What more can he do?
The hesitation in being all on-board for him in the HOF has nothing to do with what he has done since prison. It has everything to do with how he got put into prison.
Nobody is arguing that he hasn't gone above and beyond since being released.
Well, if we can stop looking at his life post-2007, then maybe we can stop looking at his life post-2000.
I'm not ignoring post-2007. I'm just recognizing that a lot of what he did post-2007 he maybe would not have done had it not been for him going to prison.
He doesn't need to do anything else... He has "paid his debt to society". I'm not advocating that he pays more fines or goes to jail again. Doesn't change the fact that I don't agree with adding him to our HOF and pretending like he is a hero.
Since when does Hall of Fame mean hero?
I mean, the definition of hero is literally "a person who is admired or idealized for courage, outstanding achievements, or noble qualities." - I feel like that's pretty well linked to any Hall of Fame.
But maybe my point would be better made if I said based on his crimes, I don't think Virginia Tech should give him this additional honor. I don't think anyone who participates in heinous acts like drowning and hanging dogs deserves that. I realize I'm in the minority here though.
- courage:
++ manned up, admitted guilt of his mistakes,
++ dug in and worked hard to get back to the NFL after being away from the game for years,
++ and in the face of constant criticism and hate from animal rights activists he goes out and adopts and even advocates for their positions
- outstanding achievements:
+ VT football career
+ NFL football career
+ advocacy against animal cruelty
- noble qualities
+ effort and hard work: even with his god-given talents he wasn't going to be an elite football player without investing hours of painful work training himself to get there. when he could no longer rely on his athleticism he invested in his mental game to remain an elite performer
+ redemption: grows up in an environment rife with bad influences, caves to some of them (dog fighting) but ultimately reverses himself and now advocates against the influences he succumbed to, helping others avoid the mistakes he made
Admitting guilt after you're caught isn't really that courageous imo, but ok
Because there has never been a rich person get away with an obvious crime because they had a hell of a team of lawyers? He had the means to get around the punishment he accepted and kept. He could have done like many people and declared bankruptcy and had his debts removed. He paid everything back and didn't duck any of what he was ordered to do. He has declared bankruptcy less than the "billionaire" in the White House.
Nope, that never happens.
Of course rich people sometimes get out of crimes with good lawyers, and sometimes they don't because the evidence clearly shows guilt, i.e. Aaron Hernandez. Admitting guilt to horrifying crimes because you've been caught and the prosecution has a good case so that you get a reduced sentence is not "courageous". Also he filed bankruptcy in 2008 and settled with his creditors under a reorganization plan. Let's not drag politics into this mess too.
That is true that he filed bankruptcy, but it was Chapter 7, not Chapter 11. Under Chapter 7 there's a lot less reorganization (as in relief) of the debt than Chapter 11. From most of the accounts I could find, he really did make every effort to pay all of his debts.
(I also understand that paying monetary debts is a small fraction of what we're talking about here, just wanted to be as clear as possible)
You beat me by 4 seconds, well done. I'd drink, but I don't think my boss would approve.
I think either way you're safe. I got my 11s and my 7s backwards, so you just corrected me!
I understand, I actually work on bankruptcies fairly regularly as a loan official and know first hand that "best interest of creditors" doesn't always mean full restitution. Regardless, this is getting into the weeds a bit. I only mentioned it because the person above me used never having a bankruptcy as an indication of upstanding morals. Regardless, people don't pick 11 vs 7 based on how "good" they are, they base it on their lawyer's advice.
From what I understand, if he had filed for Chapter 7, every penny he made during his second career would have been his to keep, whereas after paying off his debts I heard he had something like $500k left to his name.
It is possible that choosing Chapter 11 bought enough goodwill from people to make his path back to the NFL easier, but I highly doubt it. He was talented, and the type of bankruptcy he chose doesn't seem like it would make a major difference whether a team wanted to bring him on, since public opinion would be the big factor in not giving him that chance and the average person doesn't know or care about the different types of bankruptcy.
I think there's actually a bit of truth to his quote from answering a question about this very topic:
I remember being shocked when the judge ruled against all precedent with similar language that Vick had to pay back his signing bonus to the Falcons. It was the first time a judge ruled against a player in a signing bonus case.
Yes, he reorganized his debt under Chapter 11. If he had wanted to, he likely could have filed for Chapter 7, in which all of his assets would be liquidated to pay some of his debt, and the remainder of his debt would have been forgiven, but he chose to restructure instead and eventually pay off every cent he owed. Huge difference there.
I tried to tiptoe around the political line, but would have reference the same person had he not been president. That person is a great example of someone who has dodged a lot of fiscal responsibilities but is still somehow idolized for business success.
There is a part of me that wonders if that person will declare the Country bankrupt to get rid of the national debt. It would trash the Countries credit rating but starting over with no debt might not be a bad thing.
After all he has declared bankruptcy for almost every company he has owned. Per his track record he costs the investors everything and skips out richer than he was before.
How is Detroit doing? They were the largest city to ever do this in 2013. Mixed reviews in this 2015 article.
I never knew there would be subthreads that would make me prefer to talk about Mike Vick and dog fighting.
I just read Paul Woody's article on roanoke.com (not going to embed it because quite frankly I don't agree with him) about this very topic. His line of thought seemed to be something like, "yes, people can change, but I don't care if Vick changed, I'm going to judge him by his worst actions anyway, and so should all of you." I scrolled to the comments hoping to find one or two voices of dissent, but all commenters expressed sanctimonious agreement (one even used the Barber twins as examples of "good guys," which I found laughable).
I can't talk much more about it without breaking the rules, but it enrages and disappoints me all at once to hear people still talking like this ten years after he began his prison sentence. And, sure enough, since it seems to be a widespread sentiment, maybe they should think twice about inducting him. I'd say do it, but I'm not in charge of that.
That's awesome. You know, because Tiki Barber cheated on (and promptly divorced) his 7 months pregnant wife (preggo with twins) with a 23 year old NBC intern they had hired to babysit. Oh, and he proceeded to call the affair a "reverse Ann Frank thing" because his agent was Jewish.
Yeah... they're saints...
Yeah, I'm willing to bet that golden comment about the Barbers right there came from a Wahoo fan.
It's Richmond.com. I read it, and you'd be hard pressed to find someone less informed than the author, other than on Facebook. If you're going to write an article, at least know what you're talking about, and include the relevant facts (pro AND con) in your commentary. To be fair, the commentary seemed as enlightened as you might expect from someone only informed about the issue from the article itself and the word "dogfighting".
Does someone actually pay Paul Woody to write? What passes for journalism these days amazes me.
Based on all the cuts at the RTD recently, I wouldn't be surprised if Woody is writing for free.
Paul Woody has been mailing it in for at least the past 15 years.
While we're at it, we should start a petition against that guy that did the monkey selfie so any money he makes from that go to the chimp and not to the photographer...
I've heard a few things that Vick is doing now that he doesn't want the camera around for. The guy has become the voice of change for young boys going down a similar path and reaching out a lot to kids who already made poor choices. The problem people hide their own insecurities by holding anger towards other people. He has to live with this but I think he is doing a pretty good job handling it.
No one has it all figured out, especially not the people who are acting like they do and judging you because of it. Pretending to be something you aren't because you're trying to please a bunch of judgmental hypocrites and shitheads is not the way to be happy. Living the life you want to live is. It really is that simple.
I may be building a strawman here, but I wonder how this would all be perceived if he were still in prison? I doubt anyone would even consider putting him in.
Virginia Tech as a university, and definitely as an athletic program, is vastly better off because of Vick. I probably wouldn't be a Hokie if it weren't for him. But this is not as easy as saying, he paid his debt to society now let's move on.
Vick can have his place in Hokie lore and legend, and be celebrated for what he's done for our university and our program, while not being enshrined in our hall of fame.
I'm not sure how I feel about this. I understand both sides. But I think the greater population (i.e. those that aren't Hokie fans) will either not care or will have a negative reaction to this. I don't think anyone not associated with VT is praising this decision. I'm not saying that means we shouldn't induct him but it's something to consider.
If he were still in prison, then theoretically he would not have completed the requisite time to accomplish the presumed intent of the prison system, which is to reform and prepare inmates for reintroduction to society. As he has already served this time, again in theory, he's accomplished those goals. I know the system doesn't always work that way but everything I've seen from him since then points in the direction that it was successful.
I'm willing to bet a year from now, the vast majority of people who are up in arms about this will have long since moved onto their next shiny object to protest and not care that he's in the VT Sports Hall of Fame. The general public has a very short attention span when it comes to things to protest. Ray Lewis killed a man, and he ended up being a main NFL personality for ESPN.
Was actually having a conversation about this in my office today and the guy I was talking with made this exact point. I think it's very true.
Internet Cause du jour.
People pretending to be concerned online, so they can show off to others. Won't give a rats ass the instant some other internet phenomenon pops up.
The official term for this is 'slacktivism', per the OED
I call it hashtagheroes.
And I'm almost willing to bet cash that he'll end up in the NFL Hall of Fame, possibly even a first or second ballot Hall of Famer.
It'd be nice, but I seriously doubt it.
The fact is that he's NOT still in prison.
He did his time. He also did community service and messaging for the Humane Society. He's talked with kids about his experiences. He went BACK to the NFL. He's a role model.
If you believe in rehabilitation and second chances, he's your guy.
I hate the "he did his time" line because of this:
If he was convicted of attempted murder and sentenced to say 25 years, would we be using that line to justify this? I highly doubt it, at least I know I wouldn't. So if you're going to use that line, you either have to admit that you'd be fine with him getting inducted no matter what he did, so long as he served his time; or you have to admit that the abusing and killing dogs is a less serious crime than something else (that seems like a very slippery slope).
I think the best argument for him getting into the HOF is that he did go and is still going above and beyond is paying society back. He didn't just serve his punishment, do some gimmicky event with PETA to fix an image, and then move on. He seems to legitimately regret what he did and is genuinely trying to make it all better.
So in short, I agree with you to a degree but also disagree. What he did was awful and something that we can't just forget, but he's doing his best to fix it.
Ray Lewis killed a man and got a cushy job at ESPN because of how well he covered it up. He's in the Miami HoF, will be inducted to the College HoF this year, and will be inducted to the Pro HoF next year.
A) He was never convicted. Fair or unfair, like it nor not, that matters in the public eye a lot.
B) Do you really want to have VT's standards compared to Miami?
C) A lot of people hate Ray Lewis, hate Miami, don't like ESPN, and know the NFL has no clue how to approach players with any sort of legal trouble.
It's ironic that you say this while millions tune in to see if OJ Simpson will be paroled 21 years after he was not convicted of murder
I just see a lot of people on here seemingly willing to ignore that Michael Vick did something so horrendous. I was certainly embarrassed to be a Hokie fan during that whole ordeal.
If you want to argue that he has done a lot to make up for his actions, not just by going to jail and doing things he was legally forced to do, but by going above and beyond to make amends by working with organizations who were most vocal in their condemnation of him, then fine. Argue away.
But to say he should be forgiven of all sins just because he served his sentence just isn't enough for me. And to say he didn't technically "embarrass" the university because he wasn't a student when the actions took place seems like it's just looking for a loophole to write off what he did.
VT would not be where it is today, academically or athletically, without him. Believe it or not I lean towards thinking he should be in the HOF. But I also recognize that I have a bias in that matter and that others, who don't have that bias, may see things differently.
I'm sorry. I don't mean to try to instigate arguments here. But he did something very awful and I'll never forget that nor will I forget how embarrassed I was to be a Mike Vick and VT fan during that whole incident. There will always be a stain on our program because of him in many people's eyes. I think it's important to understand that.
That's pretty much exactly what I did argue in a previous comment:
And I never said he didn't embarrass the university.
To be clear, nothing there was directly stated towards you.
OJ Simpson is in the USC Athletic Hall of Fame
and will be out on parole come november
That's exactly what I mean.
He did his time AND he did other things above and beyond that.
He was also an exceptional athlete, and had a significant and positive impact on the VT football program and the university. Which should be the criterion.
And maybe that's enough. I don't want to come off as just trying to disagree. I couldn't agree more with you that he has tried really hard to change his image.
I've watched some interviews with Vick, and I'm convinced that he did more than just try and change his image. I think he has reflected on his past actions and tried his best to make positive changes in his life, and a positive impact on those around him. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt enough to put a plaque on the wall honoring his accomplishments at Virginia Tech. Yes, I feel his impact was significant, and positive overall.
This is a man who "had it all", "lost it all", and has since made the most of everyday in trying to redeem himself, reconcile, and inform others about how they can do the same. I would never condone his mistakes, but I fully support his response thereafter. It is an inspiring story in many ways; a story that when told has the potential to help others.
Our mistakes, our accomplishments, our good deeds, and our bad ones are all a part of history. We cannot choose to only remember the good, we must also remember the bad. Vick is a big part of VT history, and given his accolades at VT, his performance in the NFL, and the way he has responded since jail and bankruptcy, he absolutely deserves to be in the HOF.
I might not be a Hokie if it were not for Mike Vick!
I think the issue here is that arguably our most famous athlete is also our most infamous. He changed the face of VT football and the athletics department forever, and undoubtedly that 1999 run had massive effects on the landscape of the University as a whole. He helped put our football program on the map, and the University benefited immensely from it. On the other hand, his involvement in the dogfighting ring was wrong and reprehensible, and he caused a great deal of embarrassment not only to himself, but to the University because of it.
Those pointing out why he shouldn't be in the HOF are right to say that you can't look at what he did on the field and disregard his misdeeds. I agree with that. But, you also can't point out his wrongdoings and disregard the positive impact he has had off the field since being released from prison. To get the true full picture, you have to take into account everything he has done up until this point.
While his crimes were horrible, the person he has become since then must account for something. For that, he earns my vote for induction in the HOF.
Very well put, leg for you.
I mean, seriously... we're literally talking about a small plaque on a wall in a hallway in Merryman that you'll likely never see in person
Listening to some of the criticism, you'd think we're building a statue encrusted shrine to the glory of Michael Vick that we're all required to bow down to on the way into Lane on gamedays.
Agreed. And besides that, I feel like this thread is completely undercutting other discussions in the site and causing them to be unjustly ignored. "Chipotle vs Moe's" and "cheese on apple pie" to name some of the weightier ones.
I could also use more general vitriol directed at CONCACAF right now if people are really hopped up.
If it's just a plaque on a wall it'd be just as easy to not put it up as well. This argument goes both ways.
EDIT: I'm done arguing this. He'll go in. We'll all clap and welcome him home (including me) and everyone will forget this. I like to debate (clearly). I'm not trying to piss people off. I just disagree with some of the general thoughts on here. That all being said, I'm happy Mike Vick is a Hokie because if he weren't I may not be one either. Now I'm going with these two guys to argue about Hokie Firerman's disgusting food choices.
Skipper, thanks for your take and your posts. Rest assured, you aren't the only one who feels this way. If folks are relying on emotion and memory, it might be useful to do some research to bone up on the facts of his case. I'm not signing petitions or writing letters to Dr. Sands, but I don't think Woody's take was that far out of line. Forgiveness is one thing, forgetting is another. I've said before that I'm conflicted about Vick, and I remain so.
If the plaque is there to honor sports accomplishment at Virginia Tech, I'm going to go ahead and argue that it should be there. Yeah, there will be a lot of flack over it. I'm OK with that.
It's not that I don't recognize what he did. It's more that he's done what he could to recognize and rectify them. In some people's minds, that will never be enough. I get that.
Vick made a positive impact on Virginia Tech Athletics, and Virginia Tech overall. I think we should give credit where credit is due.
I mean, and I'm being serious here, VT isn't in the ACC if it weren't for Michael Vick, and most likely we'd be AAC with an annual matchup against the likes of ECU..... Wait...
But in all seriousness, he single handedly raised our profile that much in his short time. He showed we have the potential to be a power, and we're building to that. The VTSHoF is there to honor those who made a legitimate impact for the betterment of Virginia Tech. You can't argue he didn't do that.
Let's not forget we are already honoring him by naming a hall in the Merryman Center after him (I am assuming its after him and not MV5.)
I believe that was in response for a (financial) donation he made, not just because we love him.
Funny, I don't recall the Vet School objecting (publicly) then.
If he is as much of a POS a some people want to make him out to be, there should have been outrage then, too. But I don't remember any.
Hall of Fames in general are stupid. If we have to be told who is famous, then by definition they are not famous.
They are for the generations to come more than the people who lived through it.
1) the petition is stupid. It will not do anything, he is already in.
2) the hall of fame is also stupid. Who actually cares? Will it make or break anyone's memory of the greatest player in vt history?
3) he should not get in based on the criteria that has been put forth. They should change the criteria or not put him in.
4) paying his debt to society and losing money has nothing to do with this. He is allowed to make a living, but a university with a vet school should not be honoring him.
5) arguments about other athletes who were punished less severely are arguments about the legAL system injustice, not receiving an honor.
6) even if you don't care for dogs or excuse the crime as product of environment, you have to admit it was a huge embarrassment to all hokies. Great that he is atoning for his crimes aND being a positive influence
Agree with all 6 points.
Hanging and drowning.
I can't move past that
fuck that noise.
Dog lover... but the man paid his dues. Induct him.
Mike Vick was my childhood hero. He likely wasn't the only NFL player involved in dogfighting, perhaps not the only player under consideration for HOF at their respective school. However, Mike got caught, paid the price, and has done everything right after release from prison. Respect.
Lane Stadium is the house that Vick built, let's not forget that - and that's the real factor in play here.
Come October, the juice gon' be loose.
This is such an interesting and tough topic to discuss.
Vick's talents and astounding popularity that made him so great at VT and brought the university so much are also his biggest downfall. He was a star in the NFL and that's what makes his crimes so embarrassing to VT and tough to forget. I'm a huge MV7 fan, I remember being SOOO PUMPED years ago when I high fived him down town behind the Tech Bookstore and told him to take it easy on the Redskins and he burst out laughing. I firmly believe he is a changed man and he has done his time and I've debated that many a time with many people.
At the same time, I still hear his name and in the back of my mind think, "killing dogs." It's just there. He is well celebrated for everything he did at VT, his number is hanging in the end zone, and the law says he clearly has paid his dues/time. He brought so much national attention, money, etc. to the school, but that is offset by the great embarrassment to Virginia Tech. Virginia Tech is tied to Vick and Vick is unfortunately tied to dog fighting. Celebrate his sports accomplishments, but I think don't think he should be let in. It's just so hard to forget what he did for an issue that is so important to so many people.
I hope he continues to be an inspiration for change for many people and its great the justice system seemed to actually work in this case but I'd just rather he not.
I have always been of the opinion that the media made this a Virginia Tech thing. Every story introduced him as former VT QB Michael Vick not current Atlanta Falcon QB Michael Vick. I feel that they smeared the university name more than he did.
Seriously? You are blaming this on the media? That same media hyped him to the max and we reaped that reward, but fame can be a two edged sword with notoriety on the back edge. I was a Hokie fan when Vick was born, already a season ticket holder when he was recruited. He didn't make me love VT, he came to MY school. There was no bigger Vick fan than me when he played. As for the media, no scandal, no smears. Michael did this to himself.
MV is OUR family and as with any family - we know his good and bad, but he's still family. I am not surprised non-VTers would make a fuss, but I really don't care what they think. The Family knows he belongs in the HoF.
Well, maybe, but I guess it depends on what you mean by "The Family knows he belongs in the HoF." Some, most, a majority? Again, maybe, but not ALL of "The Family" agrees with you.
A good family will rarely ever all agree, a good family still supports their family no matter what.
Support him in his quest for a good life? Yeah, I do. Support him in his rehabilitation efforts? Yep. Support him in his trying dispell the images his transgressions still engender? Yep. Support him to be in the VT Hall of Fame? Nope. This has absolutely nothing to do with "family". No one can credibly question my membership in the VT family, and I have an opinion on this matter that is not unique. I read every post in this thread, and I have seen reasoned response, but also some disturbing ones, but in the end, it boils down to opinion. Mine is that Michael doesn't belong in the VT Hall of Fame due to his actions and the criteria set forth for membership.
I respect this sentiment from within the family more than the chumps from outside VT; however, I would ask those holding this view to consider that appealing to the letter of the law in life (in this case the wording of the criteria) rarely achieves anything positive and typically exposes a blindness to our own failings and need for grace. Does this open the door for double standards - sure, and I'm fine with that. In MV's case, for many of the reasons already mentioned and his undeniable influence on so many levels of the university (which is what I mean when I say 'the family knows he belongs') I continue to advocate for his inclusion.
And I respect very much your opinion.
And I really respect the way this disagreement was handled.
I'm with you fellows...
Some people are born good and others have to go to great lengths to overcome their evils.
I'm in minority here but I don't think he should be in, yet.
I fully respect that he has done his time and has turned his life around. But in my view this is about his impact on Virginia Tech only, both during and after.
Summarizing that impact I see
Positive: Vick put VT on the stage and he deserves to be in Hall Of Fame for that
Negative: Vick is synonymous with dogfighting and will be for rest of his days. And that put a huge black-eye on the university and program.
Absent any plausible way to quantify the impact of either in a comparable way, these two events simply cancel each other out IMO. He certainly has impacted VT and is HOF worthy but negated his own qualifier.
So now I would want to see him become much more active in the VT community and program. However he may choose to do that but I think its important that he spends more time doing just that before being inducted.
Well, he has been voted in so... maybe he can do those things after being inducted.
I know he's voted in. Just my opinion. And i am NOT vehemently against him being in.
edit: lol forgot perhaps the most important word
Virginia Tech has addressed these petitions.
Here's their statement:
Well said, Tech.
You obviously want the door to the right. You have to open it, because you're damned if you don't. And you can't open the one to the left, or your damned. Open the one on the right and walk out.
Looks like to me they're both leading to the same place.
Damn.
Vick's retired # has been on display in Lane Stadium for years. Not a lot of talk about that, which is something that gets a lot more people's attention than the VT HOF. Also, in google, type in Protest Vick and just about every stop he has had after his jail time have been protested. None of which have changed the minds of any of the organizations. I doubt VT will get all that much push back with adding him to the HOF. Lastly, Woody does hatchet job articles all the time. It's been his thing in Richmond for years. What better way to get the RTD press and people coming back then to bash the teams that the majority of readers support. He has even turned on UVA over the past 5 years.
Take a look at this list which hasn't affected the organizations that these players represent:
http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/07/worst-things-allegedly-done-by-hal...
And of course, Baltimore's savior: http://dailycaller.com/2014/09/07/the-shameful-honoring-of-ray-lewis/
Is Mama Fuller in the HOF yet? No. Until that happens, we should not be talking about letting ANYONE else in.
Papa Edmunds?
This has hit ESPN now. Link here
We probably don't need more links to articles critical of the move.
Vick is getting inducted. While I appreciate the outrage, signing online petitions against dogfighting isn't interesting.
My link wasn't because of outrage - it to let TKP know that this story has gone mainstream.
I didn't mean your outrage, I meant theirs.
This has all the smackings of "I hate dogfighting! Do you hate Dogfighting? Here's a photo of a mangled dog! Sign this petition against something we're all against! And pass it on!"
The typical article (such as the one in the Richmond Times Dispatch) only includes one side of a story that is clearly multi-faceted.
From the ESPN story:
AND
I think that pretty well covers both sides of the argument.
I did say "the typical article", and specifically mentioned the Richmond Times Dispatch.
Get back to me about their multi-faceted coverage, and we'll talk.
That article relates to this thread. It should be posted. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it shouldn't be shared. If you don't find it interesting, don't read it or comment on it.
If there's an article that adds anything to the discussion, I welcome it.
So far this story has, mostly, stayed within the local VT community and fan base. The fact that it has gained enough traction to be run on ESPN does add something to the discussion.
I get it; clearly the vast majority of people here just want to applaud Mike Vick on the day they honor him, fondly remember all the great things he did for VT football and the university itself and just explain off the awkwardness of the rest of his story. But there are plenty of people who see this differently. The fact that a dean of a college within VT's umbrella openly wrote a letter against this move is a story and it adds something to this discussion.
There are plenty of people on this thread who have well defended the opinion that Mike Vick should be put in the VT Athletics Hall of Fame. But it worries me greatly that this community also has people so willing to just ignore what he did and/or how it will be perceived externally.
Maybe instead of just rolling your eyes at what the dean of the Vet School said, you could say something about how that Vet School may not be as elite of a program as it is today without Mike Vick. Maybe you could say that you understand why a veterinary program is against this matter but maybe they should reach out to Vick, or better yet, that Vick could reach out to them and find a way to help them out.
You're entitled to an opinion. So are others. I think it's a mistake to assume everyone else here doesn't "get it". I'm sure we were all shocked and embarrassed by Vick's dogfighting stories.
The people who started the two petitions are Virginia Tech students. I'm not saying they don't get it. I think they absolutely do, and I appreciate their opinion. I can also understand the position of the veterinary school. I can see how they feel passionately for Virginia Tech and animals, and for them he may have crossed a line that can't be uncrossed no matter how much he tries. It's not a bad idea for Vick to seek out a relationship with the Veterinary School, but I wouldn't know how to advise him to do that, and I'm not sure they want that. Still, it's not a bad idea.
People who know Virginia Tech and who follow Virginia Tech sports are the people who should concern themselves with Virginia Tech's Sports Hall of Fame. There are individuals charged with the important duty of deciding who will be in VTHOF who are telling us that they've considered the totality of the issue. I think their opinion holds the most weight.
It's a Sports Hall of Fame. Sports contribution should hold a LOT of weight. Of all the athletes who have attended Virginia Tech, Vick may be the athlete who has had the most influence on Virginia Tech sports. Character is also important, but for me, Vick has shown some character in how he handled the fallout from this situation. He took some licks. His NFL career got bashed. He went to prison. Yet I've seen some of his discussions of this (including the 30 for 30), and I'm convinced he's a better person as a result, even if some people can never forgive him. You know, I understand how they can feel that way. I can't honestly say how I'd feel about it if I weren't a Virginia Tech fan. But I am a fan, I followed the story closely, and I think he belongs in Virginia Tech's Hall of Fame.
If I ever visit the Virginia Tech Sports Hall of Fame, it will be partially to see Vick there. There are many significant contributors, but he is definitely one of them. For me, there would be a hole there if he weren't included. If there is such a thing as a redemption story, I think this is it. I would not feel that way if he hadn't made some amends and if he weren't contributing to society in my opinion, and showing the desire to do more.
I'm perfectly fine with people providing a balanced opinion on the topic. What I'm less tolerant of are the "topic du jour" participants outside the community who feel they're accomplishing something by signing an online petition, and who think that people clicking on a web page should determine who is in Virginia Tech's Sports Hall of Fame. They should not.
Here's an article from Teel saying what it appears most of us here are already saying
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone
Following this to the letter ends with no one ever getting called out on anything.
Idk about you but I definitely think there are things worth calling others out over.
The sad thing is that Vick would have been better off getting drunk and killing someone while driving home.
Tell that to my friend who just served five years for doing just that. Or the guys he met in prison doing several more years than he did for doing just that.
My point was you could compare Vick to someone like Leonard Little. He killed someone while driving DWI. Got back on the field and played for the Rams. Only a handful of people showed up to protest him (the victims family). Because it was dogs and not people most just don't care.
And my point is that you keep comparing apples to oranges. In my view, it is a bullshit comparison, and your generalizations about people are as unfair as you seem to think their concerns are.
Interjection:
It's not apples to oranges, because he is not comparing the crime he is comparing the post-crime, post-time protest of the individual by others. In that respect there is a point to be made that the valuation of murder against another human was/is deemed less abhorrent than the murder against dogs proved by the exhibition of less protests.
This is not a new supposition, and not a generalization against anyone in particular, so I don't think need to take offense.
Hope your friend is doing better in his life now.
Yeah, I came off as snippy, but I do see your point. Unfortunately, DUI deaths happen every day in this country, but I certainly don't think the lack of daily specific organized protests deems these deaths as less important, or abhorrent than murdering dogs. I also don't think that protesting one proves that the other is less important to those doing the protesting. After reading more than one person making the comparison as if it proves anything at all about tens of thousands of people that I certainly don't know, it just struck me wrong. And yes, I know, my skin is too thin.
As for my friend, he does seem to be doing better, but time will tell. Alcoholism is a tough nut to crack. Add to that the obvious impact of having been responsible for the death of a person, and, well, we'll see.
It's not definitive proof by any stretch of the imagination. But there is a reason why types of murder causes varying level of visceral reaction from general population. The more innocent the victim is the more adults view it as abhorrent. Which is why Vick's killing of dogs struck such a cord. It's the same reason why cases like jon bennet have such a lasting impact. On the flip side, murder of adults happen all the time with almost no lasting impact except to those personally close to it. In fact, the valuation gets completely flipped on it's head whereby people need to find interest in the killer not the victim. Person was killed, little impact. Serial killer, national notice. In some ways it's sad that society needs either innocence or evil to make that kind of connection to the victim, but in other ways it's something taught to us from childhood. Death is a fact of life, and we expect it to happen, sometimes through violence.
At any rate, I don't think the original post was meant to devalue the impact on your friend's life or those he knew in prison. Glad your friend is facing the demons and best of luck to his future.
Without exceeding the community guidelines, I will say this: it annoys the hell out of me that the majority of the signatures on the petition come from people who yap about redemption and forgiveness out of one side of their mouths, yet spew morally repugnant trash about Vick and his rights as a human being in society. If Vick had killed a person, there would be more forgiveness in this ever-convoluted PC feudal society. The hypocrisy is real, folks.
The most ironic part I've seen is that the KC Star published an article in outrage over Vick signing on as a TEMPORARY INTERN but I can't find a single article from them condemning the drafting and subsequently starting spot of Tyreke Hill
It's a lot easier to condemn someone else's sports figure.
If you are a Christian and you can't forgive Michael Vick, you are not a Christian
Holy Downvotes, Batman. Someone let Arnie out of the penalty box?
We went 240+ comments of civil (if intense) debate about a very polarizing topic. Then this guy comes along and establishes a religious litmus test that undoubtedly TKPers will find insulting. It should thus come as no surprise that I hit this one.
Do not talk politics or religion on this forum. End of story.
Peter King wrote about MV7 in his article today and thought many here would appreciate it:
Link to full article
I wonder if anybody on that editorial board has been convicted of a crime like DUI. Did they permanently give up their drivers licence and car?
I don't dig Peter King's opinion on some things but I do like this.